Latest / Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth / Unlocking the secrets to trust in cybersecurity sales with Dani Woolf, CEO at Audience 1st

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Unlocking the secrets to trust in cybersecurity sales with Dani Woolf, CEO at Audience 1st · Cyber Go-To-Market Talk: The Cybersecurity Podcast About Cyber Sales, Marketing & Revenue Growth

0:32
SPEAKER_00: We are in a tough position in sales, and especially in cybersecurity sales.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: We want to engage with other people who we believe will have use for our products.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And in a short period of time, we've got to build enough trust with them that they actually want to buy from us.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: And the thing that really makes it hard is that they, the people that we talk to, have a preconceived notion that talking with us is going to be a terrible experience.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not in their best interest to open up and have conversations with salespeople.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: This is an area where we can all get better.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to talk to someone who talks with a bunch of cybersecurity buyers and has worked out a model to quickly build trust.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm excited to introduce you to Danny Wolfe, the CEO of Audience First.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Danny's been in marketing for 15 plus years, some of which was in cybersecurity marketing.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: And with Audience First, she's talked with literally hundreds of cybersecurity buyers to do research on things like how they buy, how and when they engage with vendors.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: She's figured out great questions to ask of them.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: She's asked them what type of messaging they prefer, and she's learned how to have deep conversations with them that actually really matter.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: In short, she's figured out how to build trust with cybersecurity buyers.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: We cover all of this and more in this episode.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm Andrew Monohan, and this is the Cybersecurity Go to Market podcast where we tackle the question: how can cybersecurity companies grow sales faster?
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, Danny, this is gonna be an interesting episode.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to this for a while.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: I think there's an interesting discussion to be had with someone with your experience that can really help out our audience, but also help out the good folks at Cyber Donut.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So, Danny, we're gonna get straight into helping our company, our cybersecurity vendor, Cyber Donut.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, for those that are new to the podcast, Cyber Donut is an amazing company.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: It does amazing things with technology.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's just raised this A round uh for about 20 million.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: And what they're trying to do is get from having 20 customers up to 100 customers.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: So the head of sales, Bob Cunningham, he's he's hired some salespeople when they're starting to get out there and do some more marketing, do some more go-to-market stuff to try to hit those big growth goals.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that uh is interesting is they've realized that they're trying to connect better with their prospects.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: And Bob is telling his sales team go be trusted advisors to these people, right?
3:12
SPEAKER_00: This is a new area that we're in.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: The technology's hot.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: We need to roll our sleeves up and give these people some advice and be trustworthy.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And uh anytime I hear that from someone, I remember someone online, uh, I know Antony Ayarino says there's only two things you need to be a trusted advisor.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: One is trust and the other one is advice.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, the advice I kind of feel like is is the easy bit.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we gloss over the idea that we're gonna be trusted.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And I think uh, you know, sales is interesting, and that almost as soon as you put that sales in your job title, there's certain uh stereotypes that go with it, and we're often battling against this idea that we're untrustworthy, we're in for ourselves and and all the rest of it.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: So, what we're gonna talk about today is how we help the sales team at Cyber Donut go through a process to become, let's say, in the eyes of their buyers, uh, trustworthy type people, even if they are obviously already, the perceptions tend to ring true.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: So I'd be interested if you were sitting there with Bob and saying, Bob, listen, you gotta help your team a little bit here.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, what what sort of uh advice and process would you start to talk to them about to help them on the trust side?
4:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I'd have to give Bob a pat on the back because first of all, he actually realized first and foremost that they need to better connect with customers.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's huge.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, in my in my experience, what I've seen is that a lot of uh professionals in the go-to-market uh team are are largely on autopilot, right?
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Um let's look at the let's look at some of the challenges before we get into what we what we need to do about it, right?
4:45
SPEAKER_01: We're faced with aggressive growth goals, you know, you're backed by investor profits, so you gotta you gotta perform.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's hard to connect with practitioners and buyers, right?
4:56
SPEAKER_01: They're innately skeptical because of some of the shady tactics that are going on in the industry.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we just don't know what to do.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: We don't know how to connect, we don't know how to uh communicate as best we can with the people that we're trying to uh sell to.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And so that causes a lot of friction between the customer and the vendor, right?
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the fact that Bob knows, okay, we need to do something about it is strides ahead of a lot of companies that I've seen in this space.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, taking a step back to say, okay, let's assess, let's assess ourselves.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I think step one is let's assess ourselves.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: What are we doing wrong that's not allowing us to really understand our customers and really understand the people we're trying to sell to?
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, why don't more companies do that though, Daniel?
5:43
SPEAKER_00: Why don't they take a step back and say, look, there must be a bigger picture here?
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, first of all, it's hard to admit that you're doing things wrong.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Let's just be real.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: As human beings, we don't want to admit that we're doing something wrong.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: We want to admit that we're doing a lot of things right, right?
5:58
SPEAKER_01: We want to add to our resume.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: We've, you know, increased growth by XYZ.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Our pipeline is one, two, three, and we're our close rate is, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to admit that we're not doing a very good job.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, that being said, I think being a strong go-to-market professional is being able to admit that, okay, this worked this time, but maybe it's not scalable.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: How do we do it better this way, right?
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Or how do we shift with the dynamic nature of a person, right?
6:33
SPEAKER_01: We're not selling to an organization, we're selling to a person at the end of the day.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: And that organization is comprised of people.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: So, how do we understand people?
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And we can't couple people in broad segments.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: We need to understand them individually at the end of the day.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: That's my very strong belief.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: So, so yeah, self-assessment is is critical, first and foremost.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we doing wrong?
6:56
SPEAKER_01: What can we be doing better?
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, what where can we turn, you know, how can we put more gas on the pedal on levers that are working?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: When should we put our foot off the pedal if it's not working, right?
7:11
SPEAKER_01: Those are really um foundational steps in being a go-to-market leader, in my opinion, is understanding what levers are, you know, pulling what levers to pull on and and not to pull on.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the first, so that's self-assessment.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: The second is looking at your team and and understanding, are they curious enough?
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Are they consuming information?
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Are they asking the right questions?
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And when we kind of set up, when we kind of talked about um, you know, this episode and you know, somewhat prepped for this episode, I I told you about um my belief that we need to focus on an inner shift before we can, you know, improve our outer shift.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Now, the inner shift is everything that goes on inside our mind, inside our body.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: The outer shift are the tactical elements uh and things that we do to connect with people or go to market in general, right?
8:07
SPEAKER_01: So right now what I'm what I'm focusing on is that inner shift.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: So our is our team asking the right questions?
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Do they are they deeply curious about the people that we're trying to persuade, right?
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not enough to want to persuade some someone to read your website or buy your product or solution or even request a demo or go into a POV.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: It's not enough to just jump to that.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: You have to understand the foundation is you have to understand who it is you're trying to sell to and persuade.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: That's the foundational element.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Are we asking the right questions?
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Are they curious?
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, are they are they empathetic?
8:49
SPEAKER_01: That's another element.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Are they empathetic?
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Do they truly understand our customers on a deeper level?
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Not just what is they do, the demographic information and formographic information, right?
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And the behavioral data, the psychographic data, you know, what are their perceptions, what are their needs, what are their beliefs, what are their um, you know, how do they operate as human beings?
9:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna sidetrack here.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: The the I I read, you know, a few years ago, I read somewhere that like B2C buying is emotional, B2B buying is not.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: And I'd say the opposite B2B buying is emotional, B2C buying is not emotional.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: I can quickly go on Amazon and just press buy button without feeling anything because uh well, yeah, I I have another water bottle, but it's not emotional for me.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go spend, you know, a million dollars on a security solution, that's emotional.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: There are repercussions and implications for that purchase.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: And so understanding those implications and those feelings of an individual is key.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: And I see that you're itching.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: You want to say something.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, it it it's interesting.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: So I have this belief, having worked in many different companies, is um, you know, the company needs to help salespeople understand these things.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you just go off on your own and just understand it all, right?
10:09
SPEAKER_00: You you're missing a mark, missing something as a company if you just expect the salespeople to figure this out on their own.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: And yet, if I was to grossly uh oversimplify, I would say that 98% of the training I've received at a company over the years has been about products, and 2% has been about the buyers.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: And it seems from what you're saying, this is entirely wrong.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: So what do we do about that then?
10:34
SPEAKER_01: We invest in more buyer research.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: Or we or we teach our teams the best way is we teach our teams how to communicate with buyers and customers and extract the right information to help them do their job and apply that information that they got from the conversations to their job.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: It's not easy, but it's very much doable.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: So combo the two then, right?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: We I I truly believe that you know, no matter what function you are, you shouldn't be left alone with your own devices to go figure stuff out, right?
11:07
SPEAKER_00: There should be a way to help you out.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: So, but there are do you say natural traits, curiosity, empathy, things like that.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, we need to harness those and and help them use those in conjunction with maybe some research that we can give them to say, you know, this is what we're this is what your buyers are experiencing and feeling and their fears and frustrations and hopes and desires, things like that.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and here's how you pull out those um that information.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Here's how you pull that data, here's how you have the conversation to understand that in the first place, right?
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Here, here's how you have a uh here's how you interview for open-ended questions in order to get the the subject subjective and objective uh input and output, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_01: I think the third characteristic internally is is likability.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Like are is uh is my team even likable or are they schmucks?
11:54
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a very big deal, you know.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about trust, you have those three inner inner uh characteristics, you make that inner shift with those three characteristics, that's the first step to building trust.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: So likability, curiosity, empathy is the trifecta empathy, yes.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Okay, those are the that's a trifecta.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Then once you've harnessed and nurtured those characteristics, you can move towards that outer shift.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: The outer shift is again the the tactical things we can do on a regular basis to foster the inner shift, but also get the output we need to progress in the trust building process.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's understanding, listing everything that we know, having it in a repository somewhere where we can look back to remember those signals and remember that information.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: It's active listening.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: That's between curiosity, like if you blend curiosity and uh empathy and like ability together, you're gonna kind of uh spit out active listening.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not just what comes in the ear and what comes out the ear, it's actual processing and looking and identifying verbal and nonverbal language.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Do I even know what they're telling me?
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Does it process?
13:17
SPEAKER_01: Does it resonate in my mind?
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And then maintaining authentic, an authentic connection on a regular basis.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: It's not just, oh, well, I'm gonna set an auto check in Salesforce or an outreach and say, oh, hey, do you have any questions three now three months down the line?
13:34
SPEAKER_01: No, hey, how are you doing?
13:35
SPEAKER_01: What's new?
13:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh let's, you know, I see that you're going to black hat, let's let's have a beer or let's go for coffee.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: Or hey, you know, I see that you are going through a rough time with everything going on with the change healthcare attack.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: Let me bring you out to LA.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Let's just have a nice weekend where I can take you out, we can jam, go to a nice dinner.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: True story, by the way.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: That's the outer shift.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you maintain understanding, capturing the data, active listening, and maintaining that authentic connection while nurturing curiosity, likability, and empathy, those six is your key to building trust long term.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's let's get practical then.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So um one of our sellers is Sally McPherson.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And uh Sally's desperate to be this person, right?
14:24
SPEAKER_00: She's thinking about those six things.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Where are there any natural points for for her to start to say, okay, you know, I'm gonna start tackling this, I'm gonna work on that.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Are some things less easy to to move the needle on because they're more about inherent traits?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and are other things easier easier?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm trying to figure out where they would start to try and improve this.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh so if I understand correctly your question, how do they even what are the conversation starters to to to kick kickstart the program, right?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: Or the process.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're asking?
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Much better asked than me.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was uh good way to ask it.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: All right.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: I I I ask it that way to validate because many have come up to me.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: How do I even start a conversation with like a CISO or with someone?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, there are many ways to start a conversation with a practitioner.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, what's worked for me is just introduce connecting with them on LinkedIn and introducing myself and saying, hey, not selling anything, just want to say hey, uh, like what you're doing here, um, eager to understand more about you.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: You in, yes, you in, but not now.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Cool, or are you out?
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Just give them an option.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to talk to me?
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: You want to talk to me, yes, but not now, or do you not want to talk to me?
15:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's worked 70% of the time.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: The other 30% is either silence or no, not now.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Mostly silence, but you know, sometimes you say eh, not not really interested, or uh it's it's not fitting for me, you know.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, well, that's that's cool.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but in the 70% that that has worked, um I've I've been able to connect with some really cool practitioners, really great marketers.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, some of them have turned into customers, some of them are great friends, some of them are great contacts.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Um that's one way.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: The other way is meeting at events, which is awesome.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: I've you know, I've been to some really great event events this past year, and I mean, I'm fortunate in that my LinkedIn presence has helped uh create a connection at those events.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's actually another tactic that you could do.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: So be active on LinkedIn so that people know who you are.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's just let's just be real.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: But um just coming up to people and say, hey, I'm this is who I am, or or you know, kind of creeping into a conversation because we all we know what LobbyCon is, and you know, those bars are hopping.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you could just like walk up and kind of be the weird person and and just start listening in on a conversation and it just it makes sense because it's packed in there.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: So, oh hey, I'm I'm Danny.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: By the way, sorry I'm interjecting your conversation.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you don't want to do that.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's you know, you have to see if it's open and there are a lot of people, but if it's a one-on-one, don't do that.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: But um, that's been a great tactic.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: You gotta you kind of have to be put yourself out there, and that's where the this deep curiosity comes into play.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Like you need to want to soak up information and want to uh engage um and learn.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're apprehensive about that, you're gonna have a very hard time making those connections.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: And I understand that even though, you know, go-to-market professionals are seemingly more type A and outgoing, you know, that that's largely an assumption and maybe um a stereotype.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of people who are neurodiverse or new are neurodivergent in the go-to-market space, and it's harder for them.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: So my hope is with this conversation that these tactical kind of steps will help them, you know, um, feel more comfortable in in starting the process of engaging with people.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, we can go into this all day.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot done back.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: No, but what I'm hearing from you is is is something that's very natural, right?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're approaching people in your own way, very naturally.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, the phrase everyone throws out all the time is authentic authenticity, right?
18:26
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like you know what you're describing to me is is a very natural thing for you to go and do.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: What I see a lot of is people believing need to act a certain way, they need to act like salespeople or act like business people and use words and I don't know, be unbelievable professional and all this sort of stuff.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh it seems almost like in in uh against what you're saying, right?
18:46
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: These are people at the end of the day.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And then who I mean when you look at the the the total addressable market, pardon me.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: When you look at the total addressable market and you look at the people in the total addressable market, how many are actually in the market to buy something?
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Let's be real.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: One to three percent, right?
19:03
SPEAKER_01: Three percent, three percent at best, yeah.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Is that the the KBI these days?
19:08
SPEAKER_01: The rest are there to do their jobs.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: The rest are there to connect with people to do their jobs better.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: The rest are there to get value and understand how they can make their life better.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: So I'd even say you don't want to act like a salesperson and a business person.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, you want to have, you want to, you know, be professional.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to come across as, you know, someone who looks unprofessional and not presentable and, you know, like a bro or a frat boy.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's an issue that we see a lot in our industry.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: But these are humans at the end of the day, right?
19:41
SPEAKER_01: The most compelling insight that I've extracted in all the customer interviews that I've had in the past three years, just start with the research.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: Be curious and research your your customers.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: This is a legitimate verbatim quote.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Come to me with open arms and to actually learn about who I am.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: The ones that are like, hey, I've got a bottle of whiskey.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Can we just have a conversation?
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Those make it through.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: That's a verbatim quote from CISO, you know, or some of the best engagements I've had with vendors is just having a burger or a taco somewhere, having a beer and just saying, hey, what's going on?
20:16
SPEAKER_01: What's going on in your space?
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And then proceed to talk about whatever else comes up, you know.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, products are a solution to a problem.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: If we don't understand the problem, we cannot sell the product.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm hearing from you is is is like definitely a human approach, right?
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Just be a human.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh imagine you're trying to create a human connection as opposed to a business connection or a sales connection.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to, you're you're probably too attached to the outcome and trying to get leads or whatever it might be, right?
20:42
SPEAKER_00: But be a human so that you can have more authentic and deeper conversations.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: And however those connections rank, and I don't want to say rank, or however you define those connections after you've established that initial connection, treat it as such.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, some of my network, they are business connections.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Meaning, you know, we're, I wouldn't say it's strictly transactional, but we're here to solve a problem.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: We're here to develop and improve their organization.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: And I understand, based off of their the act of listening and the nonverbal language, that they're not interested in hanging out or anything beyond, let's just get the work done.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Others are like, okay, yeah, you know what?
21:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm having a hard day.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: I just need to talk, but have also been business connections.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: So they rank in a different kind of court, right?
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, others are just friends.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: I thought they would be business connections, but they're frankly, they're really friends and they've shown up when when you know ish has hit the fan.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I can curse.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is E for explicit podcast.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, but when when it's gone, like when it's been a rough time, I know I can rely on those people and I can pick up the phone and I know that they're gonna show up, or if I need help, I know they're gonna show up for me.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: So you also have to assess um what kind of connections you have in your network.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: You know who does it very well, actually, and I wish I had it had it in front of me because it's a model.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll um I don't know if you met them before.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: I'll introduce you to them if you haven't, and maybe we can connect their their uh collateral here is the folks over at Black Hills Information Security.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, they've oh, give me give me a second, if you don't mind.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: This is super important.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Because they're they give kind of like a framework on um it was Jason and Deb over at Black Hills.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: They gave a framework on, I don't know what they called it, like friends, who's a level one friend and who's like a level 10 friend, something like that.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's really important because then you know who you can reach out to.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: You can, you know, especially if you're targeting, you know, specific people in an account or in um, you know, pharmaphic profile.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Super helpful.
23:03
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I I went on a tangent.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Apologies.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: So, Daniel, let's learn a bit more about you personally.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I have a list of 49 questions here, and we're gonna spin the wheel to get three questions to ask you.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Now, I should let you know that uh our technology, our spin-the-wheel technology, it might sound really simple, but it's actually very advanced.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: We're using a lot of next gen techniques in here.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: We've got some quantum cryptography to protect our algorithm.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: We're using AI to come up with the best questions that are there, all with the idea that we're gonna get really insightful questions completely randomly from our list.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: So, are you ready to go?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: All right, let me spin this wheel.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: All right, number nine, Danny.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: How did you make money as a kid?
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's a great question.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, first of all, I wish I made more money as a kid.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, mostly bribing my parents, probably, but I know that at some point I was fed up and wanted to get a job, so I'm pretty sure it was at some uh retail company folding clothes.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: It was it was uh yeah, it was it was a good time, I guess.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Folding clothes in a clothes shop.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: That's uh that sets you up a success in cybersecurity right there, right?
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, it's uh it was very cathartic.
24:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh good work, good work, I guess.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh was really stoked about my first paycheck.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: That was exciting.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no kidding.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's spin the wheel again.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: All right, number 36.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: What is uh an embarrassing or funny moment, memorable moment in your career so far?
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: So I love this question because it's really a huge part of my backstory.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, embarrassing moment.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: I was sitting in an off-site uh with the marketing team.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh we were doing some feedback sessions with customers, and I was listening, listening to this one CISO basically talk about, you know, threat intelligence, deep and dark web intel.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: And the word zero came up in the conversation, and I was like, oh, cool, zero.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, by extension, that also means zero trust.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I somehow in the conversation uh, you know, stitched in the word zero trust to intelligence, and it just it had no context, like there was no context whatsoever to it.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: And the the practitioner was just like, what the hell?
25:44
SPEAKER_01: Who is this person?
25:45
SPEAKER_01: Get them out of here.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: And I was completely embarrassed.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I thought I knew what I was talking about, but clearly throwing buzzwords around at that time was not very smart.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, fast forward uh, you know, four or five years later, we are very good friends now, this practitioner and I.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you may know him, Chris Roberts.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was a learning experience.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Very embarrassing.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, got out of that room with my uh tail between my legs.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And uh fortunately, Chris was able to have a good conversation afterwards, explaining why this doesn't resonate, what was a problem, uh, what could we be doing better just as marketers versus throwing buzzwords around in feedback sessions.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: So isn't it so good they took the time to do that though?
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: I could I could have gone uh, you know, but two two ways, right?
26:33
SPEAKER_01: There's I and I tell this in my story, right?
26:36
SPEAKER_01: I could take the red pill or the blue pill, right?
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I decided to to have that conversation with him instead of stay quiet and and just continue with the status quo.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh so that was a change moment in my life, actually.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd love to drill down into some of that today uh in our conversation.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Let's do that.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's uh spin the wheel one last time, get this third question.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: Let's see what it comes up with.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: All right, number three.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: What is the story behind you getting your first job, first job in cybersecurity?
27:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, this is a great question, too.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh by the way, I love this format, this kind of like quick fire format.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: This is awesome, and I love the spinner.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: So um I was working in another SaaS startup in Tel Aviv.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: And at the time, um, part of the strategy for Outbound was to segment different kinds of verticals because we knew which verticals had great opportunity and an upside for for the company.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: And one of those verticals was was the cybersecurity space.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So the the SDR at the time was was targeting some accounts in security, and this one company kept coming up, and I was like, okay, I I'm gonna take a look at what they do.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: I I was I was trying to get get an understanding of of what these companies were doing and why we were trying to sell to them.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh I just something about this company's name stood out.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why, um, but uh I learned a little bit about the space.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, this is this is really cool.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: This technology, the the way they're building technology around protection is is super cool.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: And at the time I was feeling kind of, you know, stale at my job, you know, I wasn't learning anything.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, the product was okay, the space was okay, the market was was a little bit boring.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, no, no real innovation.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And then I remember, okay, well, I saw the company that was in our target list, our ABM list, was hiring for marketing.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, okay, this is interesting.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, you know what?
28:44
SPEAKER_01: Let's just take the call.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: And then I had the call um with the marketing director at the time and listened to what they do.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was absolutely like incredible.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I thought it was so, so cool, so innovative uh at the time.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, let's do it.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's go into the space.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: I I like the mission.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: I like the fact that, you know, um our goal is to to protect human beings and to protect organizations.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it there's something about that mission that really resonated with me at the time and still today.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Um and and yeah, I didn't look back since then.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I know that being in this space is something that I'm gonna I'm gonna die on this hill.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm I'm dedicated to to the mission and and helping people and and helping the practitioners and helping the vendors.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, it was a super exciting and and unexpected um shift.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: But those are the best shifts in life.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: And who which was the company and and did it fulfill your the mission that you thought it was going to fulfill for you?
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the company was Gardecor.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Now they're they're part of Akamai.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they were acquired a few years ago.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And absolutely, yes, I would have to say that was the best company I've ever worked for.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: I've been in the tech space for about 15 years now.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: That was the best company by far I've ever worked for.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm still in touch with a lot of the folks there.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, the technology was great, the leadership was great.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I think overall, you know, if people uh who have started companies or or companies that are you know well established today can can look at that company as a model of how to do things from a culture, uh from a technology perspective, I think, I think they'll they'll learn a lot of good things.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: So, how did you come to realize all this, Danny?
30:33
SPEAKER_00: What were you doing uh at the time to say, you know what, there's a better way, and I'm I'm gonna do the research or find out how best to do this.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you asked.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've been in marketing for 15 years, as I stated.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh several of those years I wasted on trivial tactics, on the vicious status quo funnel cycle.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Let's put a lot of money in ads, let's put a lot of money in content syndication, let's put a lot of money in big trade show events, put a lot of money in, you know, writing byline articles, and none of it had any impact on pipeline.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And I got burnt out.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: And when I wanted to go to show results, I had nothing to show for.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't get, you know, promoted, and I felt like crap.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, I I couldn't, I felt like I wasn't learning anything too.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until I said, okay, I need to change something altogether.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: And I said, okay, well, maybe I should start coming, coming to the analyst calls.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should start talking to sales more.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should start talking to customer success more, even the founders.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: But when I went to do that, as much as they had good intentions, I was held back.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: They didn't let me come to the analyst calls because we only have one seat and we're paying like five million dollars to to Gartner and Forester, and you're not allowed.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh Sales is too busy, or Salesforce doesn't have the notes that you need in the context of a demand gym marketer, or customer success doesn't want you to talk to the customer because God forbid we, you know, screw up a deal that you know that is in process.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, that was really frustrating.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Um so I took it, you know, I took customer research into my own hands and realized that the new process is we as an organization need to more systematically speak to customers and buyers and apply those insights to every part of the go-to-market process, to the customer life cycle, always on.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Always on.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: It has to be a continuous process, it's not one and done.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: And the biggest problem I see in a lot of organizations is that they do the customer research, they get the data, but it just sits there and collects dust.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Did I answer your question?
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I know again, I'm going off on tangents, but I love these questions.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you this is how you you started getting into this area of really understanding how best to do this, how better to do it, right?
33:06
SPEAKER_00: It's sound it sounded like you were going to the usual blueprint.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna do the usual things that people do, do some content generation, do some Google AdWords or it might be, and uh, oh my god, it's not working.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: It's like punch in the face right there, right?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh then you you dug deeper to try and figure out well why and and what can I go do differently, understand the customer better, right?
33:25
SPEAKER_00: And and you if you were to guess, how many customer interviews, buyer interviews have you done over the years?
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Oh, hundreds.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't you know what I'm gonna go back and count after this.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: Hundreds.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: You need a counter on your website or something, right?
33:43
SPEAKER_00: 433 and it goes up, you know, every day by a couple.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: But I will say that um if you are doing customer research, and there are a lot of different ways to do customer research.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Um I I do qualitative research.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think there's a lot of value in that.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: Quant is great.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, I like qualitative research because it's juicy.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: You understand the why, the what, the why, the how.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: So you're having real conversations with these people, right?
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Real conversations with people.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: I think, first of all, I think leading with feedback is just like a genius way to establish a connection with somebody because they want to give their input, right?
34:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, think about their ex intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, right?
34:27
SPEAKER_01: They want input, they want progress, they want to make it an impact, they want to be heard.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will say with qualitative research, especially interviews, you don't need hundreds of interviews.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: You can get eight to ten, to let's just say 15 at max, interviews down, and you're already gonna get saturation, you're already already gonna get the trends, you're gonna understand, you're gonna start seeing similarities very quickly.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can knock those out in a week.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, people say, Oh, it takes a long time and blah, blah, blah.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: And nope.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: You can even knock it out, frankly, in a in two days.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Eight eight conversations in two days.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Come on, let's be real.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: It's eight hours.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: Not even, not even.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: I I spend an hour with people.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: You can spend 15 to 30 minutes with somebody and get a lot of information if your conversations are focused, right?
35:19
SPEAKER_01: If you've done that inner shift and outer shift and you're uh curious, you know what questions to ask, you can knock it out in a day.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: What are the questions to ask then?
35:29
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's let's give cyber donut folks a couple of really good ones that you you find always lead to interesting conversations.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: So that I go, so it depends what you want to know.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Um well, what's a scenario?
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Let's let's talk about a scenario.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Cyberdonut needs to know.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, Cyber Donut, right?
35:44
SPEAKER_00: That they're they're scaling.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: They're in the scale mode.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: We we got our we got our seed, we just got our A-RAN, we got our first 20 customers, but we know intuitively what worked in the last year probably won't work as we scale.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: We need to go and understand new segments deeper, let's say, uh, and understand what they're really thinking about.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: We have these ideas that we might make relevant in this new segment of the market over here, but we don't really know.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Let's go and have some uh discussions with buyers.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: All right.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: You want to understand a few things.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: You're you're you're targeting a new segment.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: So you want to understand uh, you know, pains and needs.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: This is how I would set it up pains and needs of new, a new ideal custom, a new target.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't even say ideal customer profile because you're evaluating even if that's an ideal customer profile.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Second is how do you position to those people and how do you create messaging for those people?
36:35
SPEAKER_01: And then third is um, how do we target them in the right channels?
36:39
SPEAKER_01: So buyer's journey, right?
36:41
SPEAKER_01: There are those are three very concrete use cases or or research objectives.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: First is who are you?
36:49
SPEAKER_01: What do you do, and why do you do it?
36:51
SPEAKER_01: What is your motivation for doing what you do in your job?
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Your personal motivation or or the role's motivation?
36:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, both.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: It could be any anything.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people talk about their personal motivation, and sometimes people say, I'm just in for the money.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Others say, I'm in it for helping people.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: That that's a personal motivation, in my opinion.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Um what's what's your bleeding neck challenge right now?
37:15
SPEAKER_01: And when I say bleeding neck, in your role, what's you know, there's this famous the famous question, what's keeping you up at night?
37:21
SPEAKER_01: But no, like what is really like what do you need to triage right now?
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: You got blood gushing out of that.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep, 100%.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: What what's that?
37:31
SPEAKER_00: What's that?
37:32
SPEAKER_01: What's keeping me up at night is my old dog and my child.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: That's what's keeping me up at night.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: No, what is like w why is your ass potentially on the line?
37:40
SPEAKER_00: What's gonna get you fired?
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: Though I don't like to you know set it up that way because that's scary.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's one.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: That's one.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Others are um think about a time or oh, another is what what is your goal in your job?
37:56
SPEAKER_01: What are you trying to achieve?
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Think about a time when you tried to achieve that goal.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: What solutions did you have in place to achieve that goal?
38:03
SPEAKER_01: If that solution didn't solve the problem or you didn't achieve the goal, what did you do to what happened uh when you decided to evaluate a new solution to achieve that goal?
38:14
SPEAKER_01: What are the triggers, right?
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Like what why did we have to move to something else?
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Another could be, um, okay, you you started evaluating that solution.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Take me through the journey.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Like what did you do to start evaluating that solution?
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Where did you go?
38:29
SPEAKER_00: What actually happened, right?
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Who did you talk to?
38:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, another could be what helps you, you know, make make a decision with regards to a new solution?
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Or what are the barriers to adopting a new solution?
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Who else do you need to talk to when adopting a new solution?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Right?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Those are those are some some core questions.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Or what can we take advantage of right now in this space to differentiate between other solutions?
38:57
SPEAKER_01: What's going on in the market?
38:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what are you seeing?
39:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: So there are so many, you can go through so many different routes, but when I talk about, you know, understanding what it is you need to know, or even understanding what it is you don't know that you need to know, that's that's part of curiosity.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: That will help you then do the outer shift, which is the tactics, developing the understanding, developing those questions to really pinpoint how to have that conversation with a person and get the best insight for you as an individual to progress and and make way better decisions than that vicious status quo funnel of dumping a shitload of money in that doesn't just doesn't go anywhere.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: So when you go through that process of the inner and outer shift, more predictable growth, you're able to forecast better, you're able to have you know uh impact pipeline more efficiently, you're able to establish the connections more efficiently because you're getting that feedback.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I've seen it be super successful for me, for others.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: This is my mission.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: This process, the way we function like this is my mission, not just on the marketing and sales side, on the founder side, on the CSM side, on the product side.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, I can tell by listening to how you approach it and the questions you're asking.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: You're you're deeply curious about all the stuff that uh that they've got going on and really trying to learn.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering, is there some insight you've got from doing this that's just totally surprising that you just never imagined you would you would connect the dots on when talking to all these uh different buyers?
40:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, 100%.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: So my assumption as a marketer looking at you know these enterprise executives is that they have their shit together.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: But frankly, they don't.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: They do not.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: And um the the biggest part is is when I say they don't have it together, like forget about you know the state of security and all the problems that come along with it.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: But the biggest part of that equation or that, you know, that hurricane is the human side of things.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: The more I have conversations with people who are practitioners, who are key decision makers in security, the more I understand and see that they also have a problem connecting with people.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: It's hard for them, not just on the vendor side, but internally.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Internally between teams, different teams who have different goals, but also within their teams, between stakeholders.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And so we're not, you know, there are the go to marketing, you know, sales and marketing and product, we're not on the vendor side, we're not the only people having a hard time, you know, starting those conversations.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: It it's those executives and practitioners who are also having a hard time as well, and maybe even a harder time than us.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And that was a a huge insight and um a surprise to me, uh, and something that I learned very quickly.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wow, okay, well, how do we how do we as vendors and also go-to-market professionals make them more comfortable and more successful in communicating?
42:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I think this process also can be super critical and helpful for them.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: But coming in with that curiosity and that understanding and empathy to establish a connection is is a huge differentiator as someone who's trying to persuade someone to buy from them, but just someone who's trying to connect with a human being, you can rub rub off a lot of good, you know, tactics and and advice and value to somebody who's who's going through those challenges.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: So, Danny, one of the things that uh I was thinking about as you were describing what you do, the questions you ask, and you said you mentioned founders, and I think early on you mentioned messaging as well.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, when I look at what companies are doing right now, there's almost uh I don't know, they'd be advised in a couple of different ways about their messaging.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: One is the category creation road, which is you gotta define a new category, you gotta name it and claim it and and be the company that uh that just is the one you know real uh economic winner in that category, right, by doing it well.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what happens in the bid to be different and read and create in the category, you you start using buzzwords to describe what you're doing.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm I'm kind of always interested to know what people think about that.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: But the second thing they're advised on that's completely different is just tell people what you do, right?
43:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if I come to your website, I don't want to see flowery language, I want to say, oh, you do this.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: You are the sim for SMB, or you're the firewalls for you know, multi-site uh uh multi-remote offices or something like that, right?
43:50
SPEAKER_00: So you can understand exactly where they fit.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: Um you kind of come across have you realized anything or get any views, having taught a bunch of folks what buyers prefer, right, when they go and and look and and try and make sense of what you do?
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh resounding yes.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: So, so i i I'll tell you a story.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: I was uh speaking to uh an early stage startup.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember what space they were in.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: Um and and I asked them, well, they reached out to me and and they wanted to, you know, talk to some CISOs, they wanted to do a panel, and uh I said, Well, what do you want to know from them?
44:26
SPEAKER_01: They said, Well, we want to build a new category, and we want to know how to do That I'm like and I looked at them and I said, Why?
44:35
SPEAKER_01: I I didn't get a concrete answer, but what I told them was another story.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: And the other story was we sat in uh I ran a focus group with about 10 CISOs, and another company came in and we had that you know uh discussion and we asked some questions, and that company in an established category started using that category name.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember, I don't remember what it was.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: Again, I I probably should have come more prepared uh with this uh example, but it was something that I knew what it was, but a few of the Cs were like, What is that even?
45:15
SPEAKER_01: It was a Gardner category, what is that even?
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And so they had to spell it out.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: They were using acronyms, they had to spell it out, and they were like, Oh, okay.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: So that just goes to show you that there these practitioners and these executives are not following the acronyms, spell it out, use simple and concise language, say what it is you do in simple terms.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: That's the best way to reduce as much friction as possible.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: That's our goal is to reduce friction for them.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Second thing that I'll say is when you're coming in as a startup, or when you're trying to maybe reposition and create a new segment or division, nobody knows who you are.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: The best thing that you can do is to regurgitate what it is and what you do on a regular basis.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Then and only then, so you have to evangelize out the wazoo, right?
46:06
SPEAKER_01: You have to teach people, you have to teach them something new.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: You have to get them, get yourself in their minds and it get it sticky.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: Then and only then can you make a shift or you know, make a new category that you own, but you own it because you're known for that thing.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: You can't own something if you're not own known for that thing.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: So in that model, then what you're doing is almost putting the exclamation point on many years of work, probably, to get to the point where you you can actually name the category and be the person.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: You can't sit there with a blank sheet of paper saying, Well, let's go create a category somewhere.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: We haven't got a product yet or anything.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: You can sit there and say, I'm gonna create this category, I'm gonna own this category, but it takes time to get to owning something.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: I was I was talking to uh uh a friend uh who I'd worked with before, and he was asking some advice on this potential next move he was thinking about making.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: And uh we talked about, you know, is the company that he was thinking about joining, are they part of a wave?
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Is there something big going on they're part of?
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Or are they somewhere, I don't know, not in a wave or trying to create their own wave?
47:19
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, what I was saying to him is uh, you know, personally, I would much rather be with a company who is writing some bigger thing that's going on and helping other companies you know succeed on that path than sitting there with 10 people at a startup going, let's create a wave.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: It's it seems like, especially if you're an individual contributor or not a founder, let's say, right?
47:41
SPEAKER_00: Because you're gonna be out there working your ass off for not much payoff at the end of it, really, because the chances of all working out is and you getting a big payout is is not very big.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think uh another thing that just thinking about it now, looking at some of the players in the market, um, the other option is you can take a lot of your money and you know dump it into the analyst, traditional analyst firms, um, and own that category.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: I I think that that model is very flawed.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know how sustainable it is across the board.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Maybe there have been, you know, isolated success stories, I'm not gonna name names, but um for you know, I hate to say it, but for the average company who's just trying to make an honest living and actually help practitioners and you know, uh have a share of that market, they don't have the money to dump into the traditional analyst firms.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're gonna own or win a category, even be part of a category, right?
48:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the you have to kind of take a more grassroots approach and it's a longer, a longer play.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: And you gotta understand that there it's a longer play too, right?
48:51
SPEAKER_00: Let me put a uh a full stop, a period on the end of this conversation with a quick story um from my background.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: So I was at a company recently, not recently, a few years ago now, um, and a new CMO came in.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: And uh remember we said, look, we've got, I don't know, 25 customers, let's say we had.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: Here they are, and here's our call recordings for all the sales calls we do.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: But here's the customers.
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Let tell us which ones you want to go chat to to learn about you know what we're all about and all the rest of it.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: And um three months later, I remember the CMO came back and said, Well, um, I've got some new messaging that uh we're gonna roll out.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: And we said, Okay, what is it?
49:29
SPEAKER_00: And we kind of went through the whole thing.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: And then someone asked, Well, where did this come from?
49:33
SPEAKER_00: And uh he said, Oh, I talked to analysts.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: I went and talked to the analysts about you know what they recommended we should do for messaging.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: And then someone said to him, So of the 25 customers that we have, how many did you talk to to uh validate or create the messaging?
49:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think he said one.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: And it just, you know, I remember that time, just it blew my mind that uh we had this rich vein, hard-won customers who who mostly love what we did, right?
50:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, most of them are pretty, pretty happy.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: And they were willing, they'd shown themselves willing to talk to us, like just let us know, right?
50:07
SPEAKER_00: We're we're in this to help you succeed.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: And we had someone completely ignore them and go off and talk to analysts about what they thought we should be doing.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: And you know, given what you're doing right now, I remember at the time thinking that just seems to me to be wrong.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: I uh I I can kvetch about this for hours.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: You're you'll hear me talk about this in detail in in the upcoming months because I have my um I have to get a lot of things off my chest with regards to this model.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: So uh but I love that story.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Um I appreciate it.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, Danny, listen, it's been a lot of fun chatting today.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: I love you the thought that you've you brought to this.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: I think you you yourself are very empathetic and likeful when it comes to helping salespeople succeed, especially those, the ones at Cyber Donut.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: So thanks for giving um some thoughts about how they can improve and get better out there in the marketplace.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: I'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: Is there some other way you'd like people to get hold of you or engage with you?
51:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh you could visit audiencefirst.fm.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: It's audience the number one st.fm.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh you can listen to audiencefirst podcast as well if you want to just hear uh some rants and get some good information on how to you know connect buyers in the security space.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh but yeah, LinkedIn's best way.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Um always on online.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Awesome daddy.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.