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The Ascension: What Is It & Why It Matters || SLP410 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and thank you so much for downloading episode 410 of the Speak Life podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna jump straight into the episode and then I will catch you at the end.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_05: Well hello and welcome to the Speakeasy.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_05: My name is Paul Feezy, and as always, I'm joined by Nate Morganlock.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_05: Hello.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_05: And Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_05: Hello.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, how are you all doing?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, we're excited.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_05: Excited.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: Three more sleeps.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: Only three more sleeps.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_05: Only three more sleeps.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_05: Christmas doesn't come in that quickly, does it?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, at Christmas time, you you say, you know, has he come?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Has he come?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: And uh in three more sleeps, we'll wake up and say, has he gone?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Has he gone?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Has he flown up into heaven?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's Ascension Day on Thursday.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_06: I thought you had a house guest that you were waiting to.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_06: Has he gone?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_06: Is he gone?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Three more shopping days.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: So get your Ascension Gift shopping done now.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Be in the rush.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you haven't got your Ascension Day decorations up by now, what are you doing?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: What are you even doing?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: It gets later and later every year.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: It is a moving feast.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's quite it is quite literally the definition of a moving feast.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: So we're talking about Ascension and Ascension Day.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_05: So I guess lots of us will probably know what the Ascension is, but we might not know much about Ascension Day and we not might not have given it much thought.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_05: If you've got questions about Ascension or Ascension Day, start putting them down in the comments right now so that we can have a little chat about those later on.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_05: But for anyone who is wondering, what what are we talking about?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: What is Ascension Day?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: Go on, Nate.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_06: Ascension Day is the glorious uh feast day for the Christian church.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_06: As we remember, 40 days after Jesus' resurrection on Easter Sunday, we remember that Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father right now.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_06: So Ascension Day is 40 days after Easter Sunday and ten days before what?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_06: What?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_06: Whit Sunday, perhaps.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_06: Whit Sunday?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: What Sunday?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: What Sunday?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Whit Sunday.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's Pentecost.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Also known as Pentecost, the Feast of Weeks.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, when from heaven Christ pours out the gift of his spirit.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: So he goes up, the spirit comes down.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_05: Job done then.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_05: That's well.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_06: That's kind of it, but it's probably worth saying this is part of uh our speak life endeavour to re-enthuse the church about or the evangelical church, I suppose, because lots of the more traditional denominations do sort of celebrate the liturgical calendar more um uh more fully.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: A bishop has just retweeted me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: We've just been just saying, yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: A bishop.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: A bishop has just said, come and come and watch this the speak easy as we talk about Ascension Day.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: So bishop bishops are into this, but perhaps who are bishop, yeah, yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_06: Um but yeah, so we we actually did this back in um we did a little bit obviously Advent and Christmas are very kind of easy ones for people to get on board with, but we did our January the 6th Epiphany special we talked about chalking the door of course and uh remembering the uh the three wise men and uh visiting the baby Jesus, and so yeah, we're sort of just trying to trying to put those dates back on recovery, historical recovery, but I mean ascension should be right up there.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it it is for me.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: I th I think my spirituality revolves around this day, Ascension Day.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like yeah, it's Christ, our great high priest, ascended to the right hand of the Father, carrying me with him.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's kind of the heart of the Christian faith, I reckon.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_05: So we might be tempted to think though, like, is it really that big a thing, ascension?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_05: But you but you guys contend that ascension is such a big thing that actually our culture is permeated with ascension-like themes.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_06: Very much so.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_05: In what way?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_06: Well, if you think about some of your favourite films as we get through the beginning, the middle, and the end.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_06: Bape the sheep.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_06: Totally.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_06: But so many um absolutely you know, much-loved films and much-loved stories finish with a kind of uh ascension dynamic in which either the you know the the main character or a collective group ascend up.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_06: And so I think did you put this together?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we've got a little little uh montage of things from films.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: So how many films are in the montage?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I think there's about it's about eight or nine, maybe.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: Eight or nine.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_05: Something along those lines.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, we should have a prize.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you can guess them all.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: If you can list every single film that is a ascension thing, it's not hard, is it?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, I don't think it would be.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: It won't be tricky, but like pay attention, people.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's one that they might not get, but we'll see.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's have a look.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Let's roll V2.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Ascension Endings.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_06: You've got something to say.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_06: Do you?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I certainly do.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have to go now.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: My planet needs me.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_06: Wow, Poochie came from another planet?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_06: Uh yes.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: There you go.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_05: And we're back.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_05: And we're back.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: What was that last one?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_05: So the Itchy Scratchy and Poochie show.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: You must remember that?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_05: I do remember.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Season five, probably.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh no idea what season is from.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_05: Awesome.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_05: So there are lots of things, lots of films there, lots of scenes, many of which we probably would have recognised.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and very obviously ascension scenes.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: A couple in there that weren't necessarily obviously ascending.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_05: Ascending.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_05: A couple of ones that were kind of riding into the sunset or going off into the sun, kind of that kind of thing.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_05: What's going on there?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, where does the sun set?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: In a pool of water, according to the Quran, but um according to most people in the west.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_06: In the west.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_06: So those people are then heading west, which might come up later on.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_06: When we're thinking about the ways in which the Bible has shown us ascension themes and things.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_06: Um but yeah, I mean the sun is the sort of the destination as you're ascending, you're going up into the sunset or into the sun.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_06: And then you're kind of doing that as you head off to the west as well.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's a good ending.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great way to end.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it it did strike me like Superman and E.T.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: especially, like what Christian allegories they are.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like it's crazy how how Christian E.T.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: sort of finishes with him sort of going off into the sky and it becomes a rainbow, the extraterrestrial who comes to Earth to kind of save us and like die for our sins.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, for our sins, but you know.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, well, you know, it's the air we breathe, isn't it?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's true, true.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um but there are also ways, I guess, in which we resist ascension, aren't there?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like like it keeps bubbling up.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: We could like if we if you're going to tell a story, you're probably going to tell a story that sort of descends from a great height into a pit, and maybe if it's a happy ending, it'll sort of ascend back up.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you can't help but tell that kind of story shape.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um but we don't really like ascension, I don't think.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Modern modern 21st century Western culture doesn't like ascension, I think.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: W why do you think not?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_06: I so I I would probably still think about the the other ways in which we like it.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_06: So we like it in our stories, we like in our films, we put those scenes at the end of the films to to enact the ascension of the hero.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_06: But also we do it in sporting ways as well.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_06: So you have you know, if you just think about the simple winners podium, we put the person who wins at the highest point, we lift them up and elevate them.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_06: And yeah, you know, second place is higher than third, and first place is higher than second.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_06: And we we raise things up as we win them.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_06: So you you know, the the the team that wins the tournament or wins the the league, they gather round in a particular centre of the pitch and they've got everything ready, the whole team's gathered there.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_06: The captain, the hero of the heroes, stands there with the trophy.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Or they put him on their shoulders sometimes, raise him up even higher.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_06: And then at the point they usually shake it a little bit to get it ready for the ticker tape explosion, and then the crowd can properly cheer when the hero uh elevates the trophy.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_06: That's the point at which we say right, the hierarchy has been, you know, ascended, and and the people and it's especially good if the team had no chance at the beginning.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, which is why it's a far better story when Leicester City won the Premier League than it was when Manchester City won the Premier League.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_05: Because you think we like it then.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_06: I think I think on a on a cultural level we l we love it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_06: I think on an individual level we're not really convinced, but I think that's what you're getting at, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so what what we love about the hierarchy, especially if you're a Leicester City fan and you happen to be wearing the same color t-shirt as that dude, yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you are united to your champion, your champion rises up and you celebrate as though you won.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't do anything, yelling at the referee every five minutes did probably didn't help.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: But you share in the victory of the one who ascended to glory for you.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's that's totally we love that we're in tune with that.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I think modern Western 21st century culture hates two things about that story.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: One is hierarchy.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: We break out in a rash at the idea of hierarchy because we just want we're just egalitarians, aren't we?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and we just like I'm from Australia and we just we cut down the tall poppies.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: If anyone thinks of themselves as a tall poppy, we totally cut them down.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: We hate the idea of anyone getting ahead of themselves or so we hate hierarchy, and we kind of hate corporate identity.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: We're all on our own, aren't we?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like you, you make of your life whatever you want to make of your life.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so on those two things, I think you've got you've got John Lennon singing, you know, imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine all the people living for today.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, he's just imagined modern life in which there's no there's no triple decker universe, which is you know, the Bible, we might see in a minute.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: The Bible talks about this triple decker universe.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's the heavens and the earth, and then there's the deep.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't we we just live on the earth and we're just individuals trying to make life happen.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that is our philosophy.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think perhaps someone who is very good at articulating that philosophy is Taylor Swift, who very recently gave a commencement address.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Can you tell can you tell the people Dr.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor Swift now?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, don't you?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: She's now doc she's been given an honorary PhD by New York University.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I think great inflation has a new peak with Taylor's Dr.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor Swift.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: What is a commencement address, Nate?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_06: So a commencement address is the the speech that is given at the graduation ceremony of all those who have been studying so hard to jump through the hoops and and get the get the grades to get their qualification.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_06: And so she was speaking, I think it was um one of the New York universities.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_06: New York University, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_06: And yeah, so she was giving the charge.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_06: Obviously, there are some commencement addresses that really do kind of stand out culturally.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_06: And so the Baz Lerman Wear Sunscreen song is basically just a commencement address set to music.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_06: And um I think oh, what's the name of the author who wrote Yes, and he's gonna kill themselves and yes, he talked about your skull-sized kingdom and die a thousand deaths before they bury you.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_06: Him.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, do um Infinite Jest.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_06: David Foster was David Foster was so he had a very famous one.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_06: Uh Steve Jobs gave a famous commencement address uh in which he sort of talked about um the challenge of of being you know such a genius and and how he could cope with that.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_06: But yes, uh Dr.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_06: Taylor Swift, um one of my musical heroes, in fact.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_06: I have a lot of time for Taylor Swift, and we could talk for several hours about my favorite songs from our different albums.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_06: But she gave a commencement address um just a less than a week ago, I think.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_06: And uh I think we have a clip to show of that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_06: That's roll tape.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a continuation of the idea that we are so many things all the time.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it can be really overwhelming figuring out who to be and when, who you are now, and how to act in order to get where you want to go.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have some good news.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally up to you.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have some terrifying news.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally up to you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: I leave you with this.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We are led by our gut instincts, our intuition, our desires and fears, our scars and our dreams.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you will screw it up sometimes.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So will I.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when I do, you will most likely read about it on the internet.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, hard things will happen to us.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: We will recover, we will learn from it, we will grow more resilient because of it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as we are fortunate enough to be breathing, we will breathe in, breathe through, breathe deep, breathe out.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I am a doctor now, so I know how breathing works.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm helping how come I am to share this day with you.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing this together, so let's just keep dancing like we're the class of 22.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_06: There you go.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_06: So it's hardly the Gettysburg address.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_06: And I think she's possibly more articulate when she's writing a song than than writing a speech.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but yeah, she her reference there at the end, her final line.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_06: What's that a reference to?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_06: A little callback.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_06: Keep dancing like we're 22.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_06: 22, yes, in which which contains the probably I think it's a kind of anthem for um postmodernism, nihilism with a smile.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_06: We're happy, free, confused, and lonely in the best way.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_06: It's miserable and magical.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_06: So we'll just keep dancing that with 22.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_06: So once you've got rid of the the vertical, we only have this horizontal, and even that's kind of up for grabs because no one can really say what's true or what's up or what's down.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_06: Um it's just your perspective.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_06: You do you.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_06: So we're all sort of spinning around, being thrown about by a wave of the stuff.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_06: Call it a dance, though.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_06: Sounds fun, sounds like down, and you know, we're we're you don't know what direction you're supposed to be going in, but apparently, if you're led by your gut, your intuition, yes, and your your desires and fears, your scars and your dreams.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_06: And how can you be led by those?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's it's the definition of lost, isn't it?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: I have some good news, it's totally up to you.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: I also have some terrifying news, it's totally up to you.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Scary, and she she repeats it later on.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Scary news is you're on your own now.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Cool news is you're on your own now.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's like and everyone's like clapping, and it was a you know, it's a great day, but the sun was shining and Dr.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Swift was in her element, but yeah, yeah, kind of a scary nihilism with a smile is a good way of putting it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_06: So, how is how is the ascension the the the solution to what or what how do we why is the ascension so countercultural?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_06: If we're saying that that some of these hierarchical um structured stories that we can't help but tell and we can't help but get caught up in when they're sporting victories, how is it that uh we can take the things of the ascension and then and then show them to a bunch of people dancing like the 22?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: It it overturns those two things because it's like no, there is a hierarchy which might sound oppressive, but it's uh that there is a theatre in which you find your place, your role.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: There's a theatre of God's glory in in which you do have a part, you're not the star.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not all up to you.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the second thing, that it's quite good news to cut against the individualism because if I've got to if I've got to forge my own identity, it might work for that 0.0001% who's called Dr.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor Swift.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, she she is able to put herself together, but she's got an old entourage around her.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: She's got stylists and she's got producers and she's she's being manufactured the entire time.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And now we're looking to her.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, maybe that's maybe that's a pointer to where you really find meaning is you look to someone outside yourself, someone who has made it, and someone who um someone who cannot be toppled, you know, someone who has gotten to the top of a meaningful hierarchy, um, and and not just being a pop idol, but but but being someone who's who's actually you know achieved, actually lived out a meaningful life in this world.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I think there's there's there's good news, there is an up.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's not up to you.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: But that's that's the ascension.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: There is an up, there is a heaven.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um which okay, so that that would throw you if it was just that truth, that would throw you back to a sort of a traditional religious response.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the traditional religious response to Taylor Swift is come on, there are there are more meaningful and there are less meaningful lives, and quit it with the vacuity and let's you know, let's work hard to be better people.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: There would be an up, but it would be up to you.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the ascension is there is an up and your hero, your champion, has got up there for you.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_06: And so there's that so we're saying there's a there is a definite structure to reality.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_06: And that we find ourselves often towards the bottom, and we f feel that we are looking upwards, and because we're daunted by that, we know our own vulnerability, we know our own guilt, we know our own shame, we know our own limitations and frustrations, and we consistently fail to meet our own you know desires for our own lives.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_06: But rather than saying, Oh, actually, let's just pretend there's no hierarchy, pretend there's no structure to reality, and let's just construct reality ourselves and decide you do you and you know and shake it off, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_06: We we just go I we should have done a thing where I try and get as many Taylor Swift lyrics in as possible.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_06: But um, yeah, instead of saying, Oh, let's just pretend that that's not true and live within our own world, we're saying that in the in the gospel and in the the good news of the ascension particularly, we are raised from the pit, we are lifted up to the heavens.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_06: Um and it's not by our us finding our own path up the mountain.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_06: It's not just us climbing and striving, it's us being carried.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: The great hero has descended.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and raised us up to be with him.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's the great story.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: And you think, Glenn, that this is this runs through the whole Bible?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: The whole Bible is about the ascension.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: Because we might think to ourselves, well, the ascension pops up a couple of times at the end of the gospel.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: Even in all the gospels.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: It is everywhere.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's literally everywhere.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Should we do Genesis to Revelation?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Let's at least do, let's at least do Settling.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: Settle in.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Here we go.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Let's at least do Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'll see if I can do it in like two and a half minutes.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: But okay.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Alright.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so Genesis in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so you've got that great duality.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: In in ancient, you know, cosmologies, you've basically got a triple deck of universe, so you've got heaven and earth and under the earth.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Interestingly, the Bible focuses on heaven and earth, and then there's this deep thing that the Lord kind of overcomes through the power of his word.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: But so you've got the heavens and the earth and under the earth.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then in Genesis 2, you've got Eden, which is a mountaintop paradise because the rivers flow from Eden.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: So up is where God is, is where the garden sanctuary is.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: Then Genesis 3, through sin, there are the cherubim who guard the way back into the garden sanctuary.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: You can't get up now.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: We are now driven east of Eden.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess the presence of God is in the west and it's up.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So no wonder riding into the sun is a kind of an ascension proxy.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: We are now down and east of Eden.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then the one of the most easterly things that ever happens in the Bible is in Genesis 11.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: They try to make a city, a people of God, with a tower that has its head in the heavens.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we always want to do.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: We always want to get back to heaven.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: We want our head to be in the heavens, but this is a fleshly way of doing it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: Genesis 12 is God's way of doing it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: The seed of Abraham is going to be this down and out reality, not up and in like Babel, down and out the seed of Abraham goes.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that's Genesis.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Exodus is the Lord brings his people out of slavery and brings them to the mountain.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: And the mountain in Exodus is Sinai.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: And only the one man, Moses, in his high priestly role, can be on top of the mountain.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: And the priests can go up and down the mountain, but the people are at the foot of the mountain.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then the end of Exodus is basically horizontalizing Sinai.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: What is the tabernacle?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's the it's Sinai horizontalized.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: So that the presence of God is in the most holy place, which only the high priest can get into one time a year.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Then you've got the priestly bit, and then you've got the people outside.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: Leviticus then tells you about what happens, especially on one particular day, the Day of Atonement, when the great high priest, who's kind of like a Moses figure, he's Moses' brother Aaron, he dresses up like Jesus, he looks like the sun, he looks like the light of the world, and he, on the basis of sacrifice, is able to ascend through the holy place into the most holy place.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: On the basis of the blood of the sacrifice, he spreads around the incense, which is a symbol of prayer, and he carries God's people on his heart.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: He's wearing these twelve gemstones representing the twelve tribes of Israel.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: So your great high priest takes you from alienation and estrangement through sacrifice, ascending into God's presence, and he carries you on his heart.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: So coming to the New Testament, who is Jesus?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: He is the second Adam, he is the new Moses, he is the great Aaron, the great high priest, who on behalf on because of his sacrifice, he is able to then rise up again and ascend through the curtain, through the heavens, into God's presence, where he sits down at the right hand of the Father and he spreads around the incense of his prayer, and that's where he is right now.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Our great high priest has made atonement.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: You get to Revelation, and it has this wonderful phrase that the lamb who was slain is now at the center of the throne.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that that is what ascension is.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's the lamb who was once slain is now risen up, standing.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: He is in God's presence now, on our behalf, interceding for us, our great champion, and we all celebrate.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's that's ascension from Genesis Revelation.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: Pretty impressive.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_05: How many minutes was that?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_05: Was that under under three minutes?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_06: Seven and a half, probably.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um, what uh what decorations do we need for Ascension Day?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_06: What would be what do we poppers like do we have uh gemstones?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_06: Put on breast breast pieces.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Breast pieces we need, yeah.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: You could have get those lots of incense.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Incense.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, the great high priest spreading the incense and the yeah, because what is Christ doing now praying for us?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Encourage your children to look into the sun to see if they're at the sun.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, it's so bright.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Can we have a look at our third video?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think it it was just it's the most awesome depiction of Ascension from an artist called Full of Eyes, and I forget what the song is.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um something alive, Dead Come Alive.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_06: Dead Come Alive, Dead Come Alive.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_06: It starts with a sort of um dry Valley of Dry Bones type thing, and then Flash comes upon them, but uh ties the whole thing together.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_06: Check out the Ascension from this.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: This conversation went out live on my YouTube channel.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: You can watch it and all of our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 27:22
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• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: That will keep you posted.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can also email comments and questions to infospeaklife.org.uk.
• 27:36
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• 27:42
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• 27:51
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• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: To begin with, it looks like he's got some really heavy shopping.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_06: That's what you can do.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_06: You can do right as we go into the house.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_06: We enter the holy place of the house, we bring in the shopping, and that's what you've got to do in one trip.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_06: There's a theological rationale for having to carry all your shopping in one game.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus does not pop back down for a second load, given second once and for all.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Heresy! If Hebrews has taught us anything, that's it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: But isn't that glorious?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like I'm like pretty much every other time I preach, I kind of give the illustration of the needle going through the black cloth.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: And if death is the black shroud that involves all nations, Jesus is like the needle that goes through the black shroud and comes out the other side.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: But he doesn't just do it for him for himself.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we are the thread, and if you're connected to Jesus by faith, then united to him, you are pulled through death.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you don't avoid death, you don't get beamed up, you get pulled through death, but out the other side.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: And not just us, 1 Corinthians 15 talks about like all of creation raised up again on the pattern of Christ's resurrection.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_06: It's funny because we do actually use that sort of language when people are just doing Easter, when they're doing you know Easter Sunday, and we talk about simply the resurrection from the dead, and we talk about you know, it's like okay, there's an engine and it's got you know carriages behind it and it pulls them through the tunnel and they get through it, and you think, but in in a sense, we Christ being raised is not just raised to stay on a fallen earth, but it's part of that first fruits of the new creation, and so he's he's raising us up to be seated at the right hand of the Father.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_06: So yes Yeah, it is interesting that almost because it's part of of the of the exaltation of Christ is is diminished.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_06: We get very excited about Easter.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_06: Some churches can get excited about Pentecost, but the ascension sort of seems to be lost.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think Amanda Kaye uh made a great point.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um she said ascension symbolism can also be twisted into a Gnostic anti-material escape.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: Christ ascending with his actual resurrected body seems to be a vital aspect, not just his mind spirit.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's that's part of the weirdness of the ascension, because like the man Christ Jesus in all his fleshy resurrection body bodiliness, he is going up to heaven.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: But but I but again it's uh it's so that from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so it's it it is not that Jesus escapes physicality to go, it's very much the bodily Christ who has just spent forty days proving his own you know fleshiness and he eats broil broiled fish and things and and give gives many proofs of his resurrection.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think the full of eyes um animation really shows you that this is because all of physical reality is to be glorified, to be taken through death and up into the the the glory of heaven, and then heaven and earth are to be united, you know, together, which is the revelation vision.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's not Jesus slinking off from humanity.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: And but that's that's odd, isn't it?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think if you if you ask even people at Bible College, I remember one of our lecturers sort of saying to us at one point, what would you lose if um Jesus was human on the cross and he paid for our sins on the cross as a human, but then he rose up as as this sort of just this spiritual being that that was not human.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: He lost his humanity when he rose again and ascended you know into heaven not as one of us, what would you lose?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: And most people really struggle with that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: We have we have a gospel that really it wouldn't matter if his humanity just slinked off him.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's kind of what Rich is uh Rich Owen's getting at with his comment here.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_05: He said we consider the evangelicals like to have a solid view of the atonement, but we often limit ourselves to the essential doctrine of penal substitute uh atonement and stop thinking their thoughts.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_05: So, I mean, yeah, what is it that we lose then?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_05: What if if we have an ascension in this gospel, where does that leave us?
• 32:56
  unknown: Man.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a bit like I said on on the day of atonements that the high priest outside makes the sacrifices, and on the basis of the sacrifices, then he takes the blood into the presence of God.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so many of our atonement um conflicts and battles and arguments that we have, uh it's a little bit like, you know, was the goats the more important sacrifice, or was the scapegoat or the the you know the the goats whose lot fell to the Lord?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Was that is that the more important sacrifice?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: Or the bull, was that the more important sacrifice?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we kind of have a debate about which of those sacrifices was more important, all the time forgetting it's the high priest.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know, it's Aaron himself who comes through into the presence of God.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: And all isn't it interesting that all our atonement discussions focus on the cross when the day of atonement, the day of at one-ment, well, atonement doesn't finish at the altar.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: You're not you are not at one if all he does is make the sacrifices.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: You are only at one if your high priest carries you into God's presence.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, you're still outside the the most holy place.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: And our focus, our focus so much on theories of of the cross just doesn't get to the the heart of how we are made at one with God.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the person of Christ, our great high priest, who actually does it.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_06: And that idea, you know, of him being our man in glory, our man in heaven.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, he is our man all the way through, yeah, and still is our man, and still is our and we are connected with him.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_06: But I do like that thing of if we just get to the sacrifice and the way I suppose you know we we talked about the fact that the cherubim that guard the way back to the tree of life uh for for Eden are represented by the temple curtain and the the the curtain that's in the tabernacle separating the most holy place from the holy place.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_06: Originally one room and then inserted in is this sort of division between the two, and that we we do actually talk a lot.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_06: In fact, I was preaching on this the other day, and and we talk about the fact that at the point at which Christ dies on the cross, the curtain of the temple was torn into from top to bottom.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_06: So the way into God's presence is now opened.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_06: But I think when our when our our understanding of what Christ does for us see stops at well, he died on the cross for us, that was the the really important bit, and then he was raised up, and that was just sort of like a proof of it that it worked.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_06: And now the mechanism works, and now by doing that, he's held the door open for you, like a like a like a true gentleman, and he's almost saying, after you.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, you know, will you would you like to come in?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_06: Like this sort of thing.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and the the ascension says no, the the king of glory is knocking on the gates of heaven, and they are open before him, and he will come and take his throne, and that as the king, he is also the priest who has you know been also the sacrifice, he's doing all of the work and he's he's finished all of the work, and that's proven in Hebrews when he sat down, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_06: Finished, yeah, yeah.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_06: And what do we say when you know when we um you know we say to people, Oh, I won't sit down, I'm not staying.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_06: So you say when you're trying to leave and then you stay for another 15 minutes.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_06: But the point is he sat down because he is staying, he was you know risen now to reign and ascended.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and that is such an essential part of our Christian living.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_06: Because without it we're still distant from God, we're still separate from him.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: We've got such a mechanized gospel in which okay, Christ might be important uh notionally in the gospel presentation, but it's really Christ the mechanism to deal with your sin.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's it's a it's a mechanistic thing in which Jesus deals with your sin, but then you've got to make the choice, you've got to make the you know, like the bridge diagram, okay.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's the Jesus comes and and he is the bridge so that if you make the correct choice and say, I want to be with God, then you can cross over Jesus, say thanks Jesus, see you later, and you ascend.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you ascend.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you make the you make the way, yeah.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, by yourself.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I like I can't, it's it's very difficult to think of a gospel presentation in which you you're not left with a dead Jesus and a living resolve.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: The sinner, the sinner is alive, and the sinner must be, you know, and the sinner must make the journey.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what does the ascension say?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's like no no, your your great high priest doesn't even trust you with that.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's he's got to carry his bride across the threshold.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he's he's got to do it.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: He's got to he's got to carry us all the way, he's got to do all the saving and get us into God's presence.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then that's just such good news, because it's it's not okay, Jesus has made the way clear, now it's over to me.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I'm continually in his arms.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm can I'm continually on his heart.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, my name is hidden in his heart, my my name is written on his hands, and my name is hidden in his heart.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: I know that while in Christ he while in heaven he stands, no tongue can bid me thence depart.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's a good gospel, isn't it?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, she says stands rather than sets.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_06: Stands.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_06: So maybe that's the Revelation 5 stuff.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the Lamb, yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: The Lamb stands, and Stephen sees the Lord standing.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: The Sci see the Son of Man standing at the right hand of heaven.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I mean a great book about this is you know, Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortland, which has been incredibly um popular with people.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: It sold well over a million copies, where he's just he's just kind of representing a lot of Puritan teaching that took for granted the fact that in Luke 24, Jesus um the last the last sight you have of Jesus in Luke's gospel is he has his hands sort of out in benediction, in blessing.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: And as he leaves, he's blessing them.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just the most beautiful thought to think, and he has not stopped.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the last thing we see Jesus doing is the the man Christ Jesus is the one with his arms outstretched to the world, blessing the world, and he and he goes to heaven, and the Puritans just made a certain Puritans made made a big deal out of the same Jesus you see reaching out to that leper, the same Jesus you see calling Levi, the same Jesus you see raising up that paralytic, the same Jesus you say, you see, taking the hand of the 12-year-old you know, daughter of Jairus and saying, Come on, rise and shine, time to get.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: That same Jesus is in heaven right now.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: That the very same one, that's the one you're talking to when you pray.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's the one, and you know, um Robert Murray McShane had this great line.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: He said, You know, if you knew that Jesus was through that door in the next room praying for you, wouldn't that be a heartening truth to war warm you?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: If Jesus was in the next room praying for you, you would be so full of confidence, so full of joy.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then he says, Well, distance makes no difference.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: He's still praying for you.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the very same Jesus who you know which is like why the wounds of Christ are so vital.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he why does he he rises again and shows people the wounds?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's the very same Jesus who submitted to crucifixion for you that is also glorified and risen, and and he's the one who's ascending, he's the one you know today.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's beautiful, truth, you know.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_05: Well, let's go see these guys over here because I know that uh the uh there's been lots of good comments coming in, and I think we're gonna hear some of them from uh Micah.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the first one that caught my attention was after you showed the Taylor Smith video.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: She just said Amanda said so cringy.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty spot on.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Christoph uh Keating was saying how it reminds him of the quote, either God exists or he doesn't.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Both possibilities are terrifying.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, yeah, if there's a hierarchy, then there is an up, and you are probably not living according to that hierarchy.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's terrifying.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's even more terrifying that there is there is no up, and it's all up to you.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and you're just you know over an abyss, and all the the unicorns and and and glitter glue and number ones and PhDs doesn't do very much.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_05: I can only think of that primary school hymn now.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_05: Care for them, it's up to you.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_05: Do you remember that one?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know that one.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_05: But please sing more.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_05: I know we had this big discussion, didn't we, about like what are the awful primary school hymns you used to sing.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_05: So there's some theology for us.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_05: Care for them, it's up to you.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Mike Tuff now uh was wondering where he can find the Ascension song video.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_05: Uh just search uh we'll try and get a link for it, but if you search on YouTube for Dead Come Alive uh by Fall of Eyes, you should be able to find it.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_05: Probably be top of the results, I imagine.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_06: And we probably uh well it's a good question to ask because Jesus there is he's he's sort of Jesus the white, because his hair and beard are completely white as he's straining up.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: He looks he looks fifty years old, doesn't he?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_06: But I don't know if that I think I I don't think he's changed his hair colour.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think he dyes his hair as he Noah goes white.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I do find it interesting that Irenaeus is he's just like two generations from because he was discipled by Polycarp, who was discipled by John, right?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: So he's just like two generations away from Jesus.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: He's writing in the second century, and he reckoned that Jesus was fifty when he died.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because of the high priests thing.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because when did when did high priests begin their ministry?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: Age 30.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: And when do they finish their ministry?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Age 50.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_06: So that's we usually do the 33 thing because we're counting up the number of references to Passover in in the gospels.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: And largely in John.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: But also in John, the Pharisees are saying, but you're not yet 50 years old, which is an odd thing to say, maybe if he's only 32.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: But a more a more you know believable thing to say if he's forty-eight.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, just saying, just saying, just putting it out there.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe full of eyes is of the same mind.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because yeah, he he looked like a trim kind of surfer 50 year old.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_06: Didn't he?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_06: Really rad down.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_06: Uh was there one more, Micah?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, there's just an interesting one pretty early on from Paul Blackham.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: He said there's a reason why modernist architecture emphasized flat roofs to undermine the idea that there's an upper dimension to get rid of these arrow roofs pointing to the heavens.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Glory.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_06: I was saying this the other day.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_06: What are space stations?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_06: What are spaceships?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_06: The churches, aren't they?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_06: You look at the steeple, you look at that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_06: If you if you just turn the angle, it's point it's a rocket ship, man.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_06: It's going straight up.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: Pointing us up.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: Pointing us up.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's a human universal as well.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like up is always sort of more heavenly, and down is oh, I don't want to go down there.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, up and down is launch.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: So but but I think the religious mindset more generally does have an up and have a down, but then it is up to you.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that what's what's what is Christian about the ascension is there is an up and it's not up to you.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_06: And actually, going back to what you were saying, when I didn't want to interrupt your flow through the first three books of the Pentateuch, but as you were looking at at Babel and the fact that they're they are together right, wanting to ascend.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_06: And the weird thing that Taylor Swift um her delivery and the you know the quality of the writing, you just sort of go, Oh, I think she might have the same script writer as Kamala Harris, who who just cannot stop saying, Together we will together take on these challenges together.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_05: Flo's not really there with other doctors, like Dre or something, you know.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_06: But and you just think, but yeah, of course, that's that is the the secular humanist thing is to say, well, all right, but okay, we're all atomized individuals.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_06: But what if we work together?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_06: You think, well, we have tried that several times, and often, you know, it results in a terrible thing.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_06: We mentioned, in fact, we mentioned, speaking of Babel, we mentioned Jonathan Height's article uh last week, a couple of weeks ago.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_06: And that one on looking at the internet and particularly the internet between 2000 uh 2010, I think, or was it fourteen onwards, was it?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it was it was certainly a a decade of the history of the internet in which all sorts of confusions were being played in.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, what's led to the fact that we can't communicate properly now or the fact that we wanted to build this this great kind of uh techno-democracy and the challenges presented by that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, like so Taylor says, we're led by our gut instincts, our intuitions, our desires and fears, our scars and our dreams.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll screw it up sometimes, and so will I, but we'll just keep on dancing.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: But you're not dancing to the same tune.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like you do, you, I do dance like no one's looking, you know.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Dance like there's no actual tune.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then and then like she says, and if we're fortunate enough to be breathing, we'll breathe in, breathe through, breathe deep, breathe out, yeah, and then stop breathing.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then we're worm food.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yay! You know, it's like so.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: Talk about terrifying.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's terrifying if there's a god that's terrifying if there's not a god.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if if there's a god and there is a mediator, the man Christ Jesus, um, it's the best news in the world.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: If there's a priest, yeah, if there's a great high priest.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um so what do we what do we want to say?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what we want to say to the world, isn't it?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: There is an up and it's not up to you.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you can't you can't help but want there to be an up and live as though the champion is everything and connection to the champion is where meaning is found.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: That keeps bubbling up.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's good news.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: The story is true.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: Christ is your great high priest, you know, trust him.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: To the church, I think there's just such a there's such a a lack of um ascension in all sorts of areas.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: We we've thought a little bit about our got our gospel presentations.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: In our gospel, it's just the cross the mechanism, and now it's over to you.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: And one one lack I also feel is that we therefore don't have any kind of space for the glorification of Christ.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the resurrection is just the mechanism of the cross worked.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so throws you back to the cross.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but where is the glorification of Christ?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Where is the reign of the man Christ Jesus right now?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: And where is all the the stuff that's so present in both Old and New Testament about there are principalities and powers out there, and the the devil is the s the the prince of the power of the air, according to like Ephesians 2.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the fact that Christ has like ascended higher than all those other powers means you don't need to be afraid of spiritual realities, you don't have to be afraid of the demonic, you don't have to be afraid of all that kind of stuff, which maybe for modern kind of atheistic types doesn't preach so well, but for new ages in this country and for those in Africa and East Asia and South America and and all sorts of places, that's a that's a massive part of the gospel that Christ has triumphed over all evil, you don't need to be afraid of He's He's making a spectacle of them.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, he's made a spectacle of spectacle of them by the cross.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_06: And so the thing that you know, as as the high priest is ascending it through the the tabernacle, he's doing that with the blood.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_06: It's the blood that sort of um yeah that that cleanses, that purifies, you know.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_06: Who can ascend the hill of the Lord?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_06: Only him with you know clean, clean hands and a pure heart.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_06: And it's the blood of Christ, the life of Christ poured out and and silencing the you know um the accuser, right?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_06: That's that's the great light thing in that line.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_06: When Satan tempts me to despair and tells me of the guilt within, upwards I look and see him there who made an end to all my sins.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_06: So so much of our assurance as Christians within the church is is because we're not looking at the way in which that atonement is not just transactional, it worked, you're now off.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_06: It's like the cleansing power and the access that that has given us into the highest heaven.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_06: Um, is essential.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_06: The the other thing I wanted to talk about on the what does it mean for us as the church is that priesthood, particularly in our conservative evangelical circles, I only ever hear the word priesthood as qualified by of all believers.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_06: That's literally the only time people in in our circles would use priesthood because we are we're we're so sort of nervous about you know I don't know Catholic Catholicism or you know just the the the hierarchical sort of structure that's in place in in the Old Testament which has given us the the shape of the gospel, it's given us the shape of what Christ will do.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_06: Um but we say, Oh, it's priesthood of all believers, and forget that Christ is our high priest.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_06: And and the the the I'm not denying at all that the priesthood of all believers is you know is a is a scriptural concept, but it focuses on our ministry rather than the ministry of Christ.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_06: It's about our activity, not his achievement.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and just do you need a priest to get to God?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: You better have a priest to get to God.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like and we think we're more like Protestant for saying, no, we don't need a priest to get to God.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like you've you've failed Protestantism 101 to say you don't need a priest to get to God.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, of course, you ongoingly, you daily, you hourly need a priest to get to God's.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: You better not come to the Most High in the name of anyone else other than your great high priest, the Lord Jesus.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you cut you're constantly and why do you and why do you pray in the name of Jesus?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's not just a ritual rote thing.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: That it that is naming a reality that you are clothed in Christ and by the Spirit of Jesus you're coming to the Father.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: But apart from him and apart from your great high priest, you're totally on the outside.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: You you constantly need the priesthood of Christ.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and I wonder whether that like because we've got an allergic reaction to priesthoods, we we just think, okay, it's the priesthood of all believers, and so like as though I appear before the Most High as this individual that I am, and then I've got a really atomized, individualized Christianity, and then am I up or down?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, some days I'm some days I've done really well, I've you know helped some grannies over the road, and you know, and then and I'm up with God, and then the next day I've run over some grannies and I'm a little bit down, you know.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: We've all been there, haven't we?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: But you're up and you're down, you're in and you're out, and and it's no, you're you're constantly only ever in your great high priest, the Lord Jesus.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: But when when you detach yourself from his priesthood, there's that there's that horrible phrase that people are always using, you know, when you feel far from God, guess who moved?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you're meant to think, Oh yeah, I moved, I moved from God.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, yeah, well that's that's kind of the like like the first move of your gospel presentation.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you did move.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: But then then your great high priest came and he bridged within himself that entire barrier and he died for you, and he's risen again and ascended back to the Father.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: Guess who moved?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus did into God's presence, and that that's where you are, in him, immovably, unshakably, irreversibly.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe if if you spot Jesus tumbling out of heaven and going to hell, worry then.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, because then then you're stuffed, okay.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: But as long as he's up, you're you're up, you know, and he's up forever.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_06: And that idea of union with Christ as such an essential thing to to get in, um you know, to or to to understand for ourselves that we are in Christ, and overwhelmingly that's how the New Testament will talk about it, you know.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_06: We have you know Christ in us, obviously.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_06: Um but we don't often talk to one another as though we are in Christ.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, where he goes, we go.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_06: And that bit from you know uh Colossians three, for you died and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um I think that's an important thing to constantly say, people, is say to people, okay, so where are you right now?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_06: Well, right now we're sitting in in a studio in Eastbourne, but we are also seated at the right hand of God.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_06: That's where my life is.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_06: Um because I'm in Christ.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: Which is how Paul would write to the the saints who are in Christ in Colossae.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: Two addresses, you know, the one the one far more important than the other.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: But and and therefore, like the whole tenor of scripture and the the emphasis of scripture is not so much that Christ is in me.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it it it it says that Christ is in me.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I I sort of toted it up one day.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was about a dozen times in the Bible says that Christ is in me.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um well over 150 times it says I am in Christ.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's the you know, and you can find verses, well, it's it's tricky to find, you know, like people talk about inviting Jesus into your heart.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually hard to find a verse about that.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but everything we've just said, like this whole biblical theology is about I am on Christ's heart.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where my salvation is.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: I am carried like those gemstones on Aaron's breast piece.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm carried on the heart of Jesus into heaven, and me being in him, me being on his heart is far more important than him being in my heart.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_06: I remember as a child the song about uh there's a flag flies high in the castle of my heart.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_06: For the king is in residence there.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_06: Where?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_06: Where in my heart.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, yes, and I think yeah, that that ought to, you know, that it that is true that by the Spirit we are, you know, we are the the Spirit is with us, so we have Chr God with us in um in our day-to-day life that we have that union and and we sh we ought to think about it as as Christ in us.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_06: However, there is a flag flies high in the castle of heaven, yeah, for the king is in residence there.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and if the king is only in residence here in my heart, well, structurally and in terms of the reality of the world, that's not gonna do an awful lot, and it can put a lot of pressure on me to say, Well, therefore, I need to go and extend his kingdom because wherever I go, that's where Jesus will go.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_06: But to say, well, no, because of the ascension, the banners of heaven are waving, yeah.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_06: You know, is that we always get when you take people to London and you say, you know, here's Buckingham Palace, oh the flag flash, he's at home, sort of thing.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_06: It's like actually heaven is is resplendent with the pomp and ceremony of the king, and and that's where he is, and and he's been crowned, and as part of that um that that inauguration, that ceremony of his of his achievement, that the spirit which is uh poured on his head as he as he is ascended, in the course of the next two weeks will pour down onto the church, and the spirit will descend onto the church at Pentecost.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_06: And that is only possible because he ascended.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_06: You can't have Pentecost without the ascension.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he did it as our brother and champion and great high priest in our name and on our on our behalf.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's genuinely our brother.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: He's genuinely one of us.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, just as Neil Armstrong, you know, one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, man is at the right hand of the father, and my humanity has been taken there.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that that is my ultimate identity and my security.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's brilliant.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_05: Well, lots of good stuff there, guys, lots of food for thought.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh certainly um lots more stuff we can talk about.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Glenn's thrown up a few uh links here for those who might want to find out a bit more about the Ascension.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um those are those are in the chat, live chat.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're watching this later and you want to grab them, you can find them.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_05: But they're on your website, isn't it?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's my blog, and and actually some great resources from Paul Blackham, who's been in the top chat as well, uh, are on that page.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: And Dave Menon has an incredible sermon.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's the most scripture-rich sermon I've ever heard in my life.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: And in 24 minutes, I think he does he does this ascension sermon.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to listen to it, it's amazing.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_05: Great, so do check this out.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_05: Happy Ascension to you.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Ascension.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_04: Happy Ascension.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm joined by Paul Feesey, who was one of the three during the actual podcast proper.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for your thoughts.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it was interesting to get into Ascension and why we maybe don't talk about it enough, really.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks for doing that.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, I mean it was mostly Glen and Me, to be honest, is uh uh I don't think I've thought hugely about Ascension on uh Ascension on the whole either.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um so uh there's lots of things for me to go away and think about off the back of it, I think.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_05: Well, thank you all for listening, and we will see you next week.