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Episode 783: Climbing Up The Waterfall with Dr. Glenn Doyle · The Trauma Therapist

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Right. Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right,
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So five or three to one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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I am very excited to have as my guest today doctor Glenn Doyle.
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Glenn, welcome. It is a pleasure to be with you, doctor Guy.
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Appreciate that. So. Doctor Doyle has extensive a clinical experience in inpatient,
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outpatient and consultation settings. He's presented multiple times at the annual conference of
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the ISSTD International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association as well as the
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American Psychological Association. Doctor Doyle got into psychology because, as a teenager,
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he became deeply fascinated with the self help movement as well as literature and as
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a professional, has made it his mission to bring the techniques and research base
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of clinical psychology to the personal empowerment paradigm of self help. Glenn, welcome,
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Thank you so much. So before we go in here, share with
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our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently. Where I'm from
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originally is I grew up in Iowa, here in the heartland, and went
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to graduate school in Washington, d C. And that's actually where I started
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my career as a trauma focused psych college just out in DC. And I'm
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still licensed in d C. And in twenty fifteen, I moved the whole
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operation or the heart of the operation anyway here to Chicago, Illinois. So
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I'm primarily based here in Chicago, but i also have a client base in
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DC. And you know, I also, like at this point, you
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know, I now do consultation work with folks nationally and recently internationally as well.
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So awesome, awesome, RK. Glenn, let's dive into here,
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how the heck did this start? For you? Share that story. It
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depends on what we're talking about when we say this, you know, if
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we're talking about psychology generally and getting into psychology, let alone trauma therapy,
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like I didn't actually know, but all of these things from very early in
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my life were kind of snowballing and conspiring to kind of move me towards this
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the work that I do now, working mostly with trauma and addictions. You
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know. So I grew up with a really intense, really intelligent, really
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brilliant father, and the expectations for me were super super high. My dad
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was this brilliant guy. He started businesses, and he was super super charismatic,
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and you know, like being his son came with its own set of
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expectations. Kind Of the dark side of that was that he also had a
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serious addiction problem. And so my life growing up was really kind of ducking
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and dodging and weaving between all of the life obstacles that you don't even know
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are obstacles at the time. For you, it's just life. I talked
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to a lot of my folks now and they say, man, I didn't
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realize that when I was growing up in these environments that we would now call
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traumagenic, I didn't realize there was anything weird about that. That was just
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life. And that was what it was like for me too. This was
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just like life. You know, growing up in a house where there was
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you know, serious addiction problems fed into like a school based experience where I
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was just getting bullied mercilessly, and again I didn't realize that was anything out
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of the ordinary, you know, I kind of thought that, man,
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this is just life. Sometimes it sucks. I can look back now and
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really see that, uh, you know, dealing with the uh you know,
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the behavior of my dad at home and trying to kind of live the
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life that was trying to live at school were really formative experiences for me.
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And by the time I was an adolescent, I had a developed a real
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serious depression problem, you know, up to and including suicide, suicidal ideation
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and kind of half asked suicide attempts. I had also really developed a a
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personality style that lent itself to addiction. Again, at the time, I
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didn't really know what that was, because gosh, I wasn't cool enough to
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be to be using any of the substances that they that you think of as
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as substances of addiction. I was never invited a party, so I never
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got the chance to drink. That said, I uh was behaving in these
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these very what I now know are addict ways with with other substances and other
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behaviors. So anyway, I wind up at this as an adolescent just miserable,
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miserable, So me, any did you receive any help up to this
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point? Did anyone an adult jump in and say, Glenn, you know,
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maybe you should talk to some anything like that. So it's funny you
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should ask, because so part of my experience in grade school was I was
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sexually abused by a male babysitter, and a few years after it happened,
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I told about it, and by this time that the guy had moved away
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and there's really no accountability that could happen for the guy. But sure my
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parents actually got me in to see a counselor, and I remember being there
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thinking, you know, gosh, this thing that had happened with the babysitter.
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Like I knew it was supposed to have been traumatic for me, but
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I remember thinking, gosh, of the things that are making me unhappy.
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That's like, that's that's not even high on the list, guy, And
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yet that's what the guy was asking about. That's what the counselor was asking
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about. So I do remember having a few sessions with this guy and to
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my recollection. And I was pretty young, like at this point, I
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was probably in about fourth grade or so, and I remember having the experience
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of like, well, gosh, I think those sessions ended because there really
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wasn't anywhere to go with it. You know, I don't think he quite
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knew what to do with me. Nor did I really have to my recollection.
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Again this is a long time ago, Nor did I really have any
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No one had really sat me down and said this is what we're doing,
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like, this is what therapy is, like, this is you know,
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this is how it works, this is how you can this is what you
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can bring to it, et cetera, et cetera. Fast forward to when
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I was a teenager and I started to get interested in self help. You
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know, like, so I started to, uh, you know, I
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kind of wandered into the self help aisle of Barnes and Noble. You know
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how how you kind of wander into the self help isle and you hope nobody
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sees you to kind of you look around furtively, Right, So I started
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reading self help books, and so I got the idea in my head that
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well, maybe there was something here, like like maybe you know this wasn't
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just all me sucking. You know, maybe I'd had some experiences and maybe
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I had some challenges, you know, some obstacles, right, And yet
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at the time, so I remember I asked for my birthday, for my
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sixteenth birthday, I asked my parents for a self help book, as I
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want as a president, I wanted to It was a it was a Tony
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Robbins book. It was interested as a yeah, okay, they had the
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self help book my birthday, and I remember my parents just got it for
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me and didn't ask any questions. And I remember thinking at that point,
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at least in retrospect, I remember thinking, gosh, if you're, you
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know, for his sixteenth birthday, if your kid asks for a self help
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book, maybe you'd get curious, right, like like like maybe you just
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ask some questions, like so, kid, yeah right. I think that
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kind of sent the message to me that, well, wow, I really
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am on my own here, you know, I really am, you know,
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kind of in a position of having to put together any kind of recovery
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I'm going to have on my own. I do remember when I was a
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junior in high school having an anxiety attack at school, and I was,
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you know, I was. I was hyperventilating, you know. I know
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now that I'd been triggered and and I was having a bit of a trauma
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response, but at the time no idea what was going on, Like I'm
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gasping like a fish out of water. And they holed me down to the
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to the nurse's office, and eventually they got an ambulance. They put me
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to the hospital, and my parents did show up. My recollects. They
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were furious because they had come from work, like what is this drama queen
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doing now? Right? Like what is this kid, this dramatic kid,
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you know what we have to interrupt our day, right, and kind of
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arguing with themselves about like kind of who is to blame for this? You
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know? And and here I just wanted to shrink. And I remember being
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in the hospital but just wanting to shrink, like, oh my god,
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what have I done. They did get me into into therapy, but the
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but the therapy was again it was focused on, well, Glenn is the
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problem in the family. And I remember that vividly, like I was kind
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of you know, we know this term identified patient, right, like I
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was the identified patient and so I wasn't in treatment for my recollection is a
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few months because it wasn't a year, because I remember, I remember what
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classes I was taking when it started. I remember what classes I was taking
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when it stopped. So again, off and on. It's not it's not
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the case that there was no help. It is the case that there was
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help that I didn't know how to really utilize. It's also the case,
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I will tell you this that whenever help was was offered, like whenever,
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like at school, they would do awareness exercises, right, and they'd say,
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well, man, if you ever have thoughts of hurting yourself, you
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know, you know, come to us and then talk to us and whatever.
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I remember having thought, there is no way, there is no way
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I would do that. Are you kidding? I'll be in trouble. I
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vividly remember my parents arguing when I had the panic at actual cosmall like that,
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you get in trouble, we could tell anybody, right. So,
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in response to your question, this is a long answer to a short question.
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But in response to your question, sure there was help, but man,
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was it really complicated to access or to utilize it? Anyway? I
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really appreciate you sharing all that, and it just sounds like you were put
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into this drama maze where there really was Noah's keep. You know, even
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the help wasn't really sufficient and in fact kind of turned on you even more
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so, how do things unfold such that you said yourself, all right,
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I want to start pursuing this so well, it's it's really relevant to to
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how you just framed that guy. The you know, the fact that even
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when help was available, it even it felt more dangerous to access it.
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I actually talked to a lot of people now who feel that way about engaging
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the mental health system. Is that they you know, like a lot of
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people have the experience of man, you get just a little too honest with
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a therapist and you find yourself in the hospital or you know. It very
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much felt that way for me. And and ironically, where I actually found
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some semblance of connection and some semblance of understanding. Wasn't those self help books
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that I was reading. I mean, I think there's a number of reasons
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for that. You know, One, I was accessing them on my terms,
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and I was accessing them at my pace, and many of the better
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self help books, and at this point, I've you know, like,
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at this point, I'm I'm I'm board president of an organization that is,
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you know, that that works with you know, accountability and transparency the self
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help industry. So, like, I've read a lot of self help books
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at this point, but the better self help books very often included stories,
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you know, from the author's life, and I really connected with that.
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That turned into a real source of strength. And I say without exaggeration that,
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you know, those books probably saved my life at some point because it
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did give me this this It planted the seed of an idea that Okay,
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if he figured it out, you know, if this guy was in this
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position, he figured it out, well, then maybe I can figure it
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out to don't know how, right, but if this situation exis existed,
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you know, maybe I can figure that out too. It's one of the
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reasons why now as a therapist, you know, I'm very big on bringing
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our own personal experience to the table and how we work, you know,
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because I think part of what was happening was anytime a therapist did work with
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me, they were hitting technique really hard. Right, Maybe they were doing
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you know, good therapy, but what I needed was that idea that that
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this is possible for real people to do this and a get through, and
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that's what I got from the self help books. So so I was always
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very into the self help books, even as I kind of careened into what
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turned out to be an initially disastrous attempt at college. Right, so,
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I'm a kid who grew up with real self esteem wounds, and I think
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that, you know, gosh, how am I going to solve the self
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esteem problem? My first college major, I was a music major, was
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going to be a rock and roll star. I'm going to get myself a
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job guy. Right at the end of my job, people stand up and
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say yay, and then they buy your CD. That was how I was
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going to fix myself esteem problem. And this made perfect sense to me at
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the time. I was still terribly depressed. And what ended up happening was
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I got a few months into my college career where I just collapsed and I
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went into a major depressive episode. I stopped going to school essentially and went
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into a really, really dark place. I dropped out of school, wound
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up doing things like playing piano in places for money, Like I was the
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piano man with the with the glass on the piano and I played dinner theater
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for a while. You know, to make ends meet. But the point
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is I was in this really really dark place, finally got to a place
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where I remembered the self of how books that had really got me through as
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a teenager. So at this point in in my early twenties and I thought
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to myself, you know, gosh, maybe I can revisit those I was
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lucky enough to stumble upon. I still remember the day I stumbled upon an
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old, dog eared copy of Feeling Good by by David Burns, like the
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old book about CBT. It's like CBT for the mass is Feeling Good by
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David Burns. Like, Okay, I guess, I guess, I guess
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I'll try it. Not only did that kind of mark the beginning of my
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turnaround, but that also planted the idea in my head of you know how
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back in the day, the idea I've been planted in my head that maybe
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you can survive this. Well, this planted the idea in my head is
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like, well, maybe you can do something like these people did in helping
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other people. You know, maybe you can make the focus of your career,
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your life being there for people in ways that you needed someone to be
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there by, Like like like you need it right. So in short order,
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I kind of right in the ship. I went right back to school.
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I burned through an undergraduate psychology degree in about two and a half years.
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Like that's how motivated. I was. Summers and stuff, went to
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graduate school in Washington, d C. And when I was in d C,
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I was lucky enough, like I already had this idea of, man,
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the kind of work that I wanted to do, and the kind of
16:11
patients I wanted to work with. I was lucky enough to get a job
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at the Psychiatric Institute of Washington, which happened to have an inpatient unit devoted
16:23
to the treatment of complex trauma and associative disorders. Right. So I was
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very lucky to get exposed to the fact that, man, not only can
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you do this kind of work, but here's how you do it. There
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are people who are actually doing it, and here are people who are doing
16:40
it with some of the patients who are in the you know, the worst
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possible space, like like if you're being admitted to an inpatient unit, man,
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you're you're having rough times. So again, I was lucky enough to
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after you know, getting into this groove of this is what I want to
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do having some really great modeling. So again, it's I often say that,
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you know, man, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now
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without having been just stupidly lucky, you know, and and and and not
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just lucky the things that have happened to me, which I am, but
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also stupidly lucky to have had the the role models that I've had. Someone
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don't even know that they're role models. Well again, I mean, I
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I think you you're articulating your whole process beautifully and in a really inspiring way.
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And you know, I want to second your sentiment about the importance of
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bringing your own story, of one's own story to this whole uh process and
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platform, because that's what I hope my podcast is about. So already as
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you're talking, Glen, I'm thinking, all right, I've got to have
17:56
this guy back on again. Sincerely. I mean, this is what it's
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about out But how talk a little bit more if you could, how you
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made that jump to say, you know what, I want to help others.
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Sure, So again, I talked so much about the importance of modeling,
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and one of my earliest models was, as I noted, that self
18:25
help kind of pioneer superstar Anthony Robbins. I know that he's kind of a
18:29
controversial figure, but believe me, being involved in the nonprofit work I am
18:33
now, I know he's a very controversial figure. But something that really struck
18:37
me about Tony Robbins's story was that he didn't really crawl out of a hole
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that he was in until he was able to envision a life of meaning.
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And for him it happened to be able. Man, I know the resources
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that I might have needed, the resources that might have been help to me
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once upon time that just weren't there. You know, maybe I can be
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that person for somebody else. It really goes back to if you're familiar with
19:08
a Victor Frankel man search for meaning. So Victor Frankel is in this unbelievably
19:15
unfortunate position of being in a concentration camp, and Victor Frankel psychiatrist, like
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he gets really interested in the question of, like, well, what makes
19:23
the difference between the prisoners who survive and the prisoners who don't. He comes
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up with this really interesting observation, says, man, it seems to be
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those prisoners who have who can conjure some sense of meaning, who can assign
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some sense of meaning to what otherwise might just be this this awful, nonsensical
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experience, that there is something too that that has survival value. And Frankel
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and Man Search for Meaning talks about this about how very often the meaning that
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prisoners assigned to this awful experience they we're having. It's like, well,
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Man, the meaning I'm going to assigned to this is I need to get
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through this so I can so I can tell the world about it, so
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it will never happen again. Likewise, Tony Robbins meaning was that, you
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know, I need to learn everything I can about human behavior so I can
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go on and help other people. Right, that's going to be my meaning
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when I take a look at what gets me out of bed in the morning
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and what really motivates me. And you know, motivation has has always been
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a problem for me. So in addition to these other things I was struggling
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with. You know, for years I had no idea I had a bad
20:33
case of ADHD. Part of what ADHD entails is what we call executive dysfunction
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and behavior initiation. Motivation right, terribly hard time just getting motivated. That's
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why it's one of the reasons why I need these really vivid models in front
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of my eyes of like, well, man, this is what this could
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be, you know, this is what this could possibly be. Right,
20:59
So having again these these really vivid examples of like man Victor Franko found meaning
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and telling the world about it. Antoni Robbins found meaning and being there in
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ways that that other people, that that that he needed people to being or
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other people. And I think what gets me out of bed in the morning,
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and what's what motivates me to do the things that I do, to
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to to write the tweets and write the blogs, and I mean, let
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alone work with the patients, et cetera. I think, you know,
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man, if all that was available, if all that is available is the
21:30
kind of help that I got, we're perfectly well intended people, right,
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Like I totally believe a counselor who I saw when I was a kid,
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like God bless it, he was probably doing his best. Then then people
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are again they're not going to get the help they need. So that's again,
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that's that's what gets me out of out of bed in the morning when
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I write my tweets, you know, so so most of the material I
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do in terms of you know, writing blogs, writing other things, and
21:59
and and doing your parents and stuff. Most of them start like, I
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kind of work out my ideas as tweets first, So if you follow my
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Twitter, you're getting the rough drash of this idea that I have. Right.
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But most of the ideas that start out with tweets like huh, I
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envision the person who was me, Like I envision the person who is struggling
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with their trauma recovery, right, And I have this whole thing that I
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feel so strong about is that you know, in the trauma treatment world,
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I feel that we tend to get really enamored of trauma therapy, Like we
22:30
get really interested in the therapy because we're a therapist. We get really interested
22:33
in what we do. Right, I get really interested Since I come from
22:37
the experience that I come from, I get really experience it, and I
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get really interested in the experience of recovering. Like therapy happens an hour a
22:44
week. Recovery is twenty four seven, three sixty five. So I think
22:48
about that person who is struggling with recovery, and they are struggling with are
22:52
they going to self harm today? Right? Like, like, are they
22:55
going to get out of bed today? Are they going to go to work?
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I don't know why? And they open up there, you know their
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social media app. You know, is there a nugget of an idea that
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I can plant there? That idea is is really interesting and cool to me
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that I can plant that idea, much like ideas are planted in my head.
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And I know it's possible because I had that experience. That's a really
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interesting reversal in a sense. Uh, you know, therapy has taking place
23:26
an hour a week, recovery is taking place, uh, filling, filling
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the gaps and all that other time. My gosh, you know you're clearly
23:37
on a mission. Right let me just remind everyone of them speaking with doctor
23:41
Glenn Doyle. All right, let's just pause here for a second to thank
23:45
our sponsors. All Right, we are back. You're you're you're on a
23:52
mission to what I'm on a mission to save the me who once was?
24:03
Is what first occurs to me when when when you say that I'm on a
24:07
mission to be there. So I have a whole shtick that I do about
24:10
how you know, Look, I mean it's nothing new. It's if you've
24:14
done any kind of inner child work, you know, you know that that
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that we carry with us, the the the the us that we once were,
24:22
right, the kid we once were. We carry that kid with us
24:25
inside our head and inside our heart, and a big task of trauma recovery
24:29
is to make the inside of our head and the inside of our heart a
24:32
safe place for that kid. And I'm still doing that work now, right,
24:37
So part of rescuing the me who once was part of taking care of
24:44
him, you know, part of the care and maintenance of that that kid
24:47
I once was, who I still carry around with me is to help other
24:52
people, right, Because I think part of what that kid inside needs,
24:56
at least speaking from my own kid inside, I think part of what that
24:57
kid inside needs is to know that there are people who see them, who
25:03
see that man, the resources that are available are problematic, and again it's
25:10
it's not even necessarily anybody's fault that the just are the complicated reach out for
25:14
help. So again I think of it like in terms of a mission,
25:19
Mike. Still, I'm helping other people, and I'm blessed to be able
25:22
to do that, But really, what am I doing, really, what
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I'm taking care of that kid who I once was, Like like you know
25:30
the fact that I make these resources available. Another thing that I do is,
25:34
like so hear, in my practice in Chicago, I make lots and
25:38
lots of therapy opportunities available at that either low or no cost and whatnot.
25:44
That's another piece of it, right, But really, what are we always
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trying to do. We're always trying to save and nurture and and keep safe.
25:53
You know that that kid inside, I mean, we're all we're all
25:56
really working her own recovering, like everything you see of me, like I
26:00
work in my own recovery. Of course I am. What do you feel
26:06
that kid needed? You know, if you could turn back the clock in
26:11
the sense, what would you have had that initial therapist do or say that
26:18
would have allowed you, as a young kid to be seen and were heard.
26:23
So that's an interesting question because what first leaps to my mind was that
26:32
I wish that I'd had how to put this. I wish that I'd had
26:37
someone frame the problem to me or the situation to me in such a way
26:41
that you know, Look, this project of finding what we'll call it happiness
26:48
because that's how kids think, right, this project of finding happiness and of
26:52
not being miserable. Let alone, healing from from the experience that you might
26:57
have had. This is a large project. This is a project that begins
27:02
when you get up in the morning, right, and it extends far beyond
27:07
this hour. I wish that i'd had that that that therapist. I'm kind
27:14
of glad I don't remember his name because I feel that, like in all
27:15
these interviews I toss him under the bus and it's really not his vault.
27:18
But I wish I'd had somebody sit me down and say, you know,
27:25
look, you know, I get a limited amount of time with you,
27:29
but you're with you twenty four to seven. So that relationship with you,
27:33
your relationship with you, that's the one you got to work on. That's
27:37
the one that needs to be made safe. That's the one that needs to
27:40
be you know, productive. Right. I think that we do our best
27:47
work as a therapist. It might either are all sorts of different types of
27:51
therapists and all sorts of different types of therapy. I'm not a snob and
27:52
says, you know, like it has to be done this way. I
27:56
do think that as a general principle, though, like we as therapists are
28:00
the most effective when we are acknowledging straight up the limitations of any possible work
28:07
that we can do. Right, So I wish i'd had that that that
28:11
therapist say, Now, look, kid, you're you're up against it.
28:17
You don't know it, but you're up against it. Genetically, you're up
28:19
against it. Environmentally, you're up against it with this abusive experience that you
28:25
had, right, and you're going to be up against it every minute that
28:27
you're awake. So this is a large project. I am here to help
28:33
you, and I'm not the only one here to help you. You're going
28:36
to find God, if I'd only die, if I'd only had somebody frame
28:40
it to me, like, you know, look, I as a therapist
28:45
and not the only resource you're ever going to have. You know, you're
28:48
going to find characters and books and characters and movies and musicians and poetry and
28:56
various things out there in the world that are going to help you that are
29:00
going to be your secret weapons. Right. It's kind of an abstract answer
29:06
to it. To it's a very concrete question, like what should he have
29:08
said? But man, like I really think of you know, a model,
29:11
I really admire, you know, again, having dealt also with you
29:17
know, some of my own addiction issues. Right. A model I really
29:22
admire or is the twelve step model, even though I know that you know
29:27
what, the twelve step model has, its has its advantages, it's disadvantages,
29:30
it's not for everybody. But something I really like about it is the
29:34
sponsorship model. This idea that Okay, you're going to have a sponsor.
29:40
Your sponsor, Yeah, you can call them when you're in a jam.
29:41
They're they're they're kind of part mentor, they're kind of part coach. They
29:45
recognize the limitations. They're not a therapist, right, but they're kind of
29:49
but they've been there. Most importantly, they've been there. They have some
29:52
sober time, right, so they know how you're going to get through this.
29:57
They know how they got through this, and then know they it's possible
30:00
to get through it. You bet, you bet. Let me. I
30:04
can tell you a story just real quick. Of course. I remember once
30:08
my family was vacationing in Hawaii, and I was probably it was probably in
30:17
my twenties, and and and we were in Hawaii and we were doing this.
30:21
Among the activities that we were doing, we were doing these these dune
30:23
buggies driving through this this jungle in Hawaii it was very beautiful. And we
30:29
stopped at one point at a it was this beautiful lagoon with a with a
30:34
waterfall, and we were swimming in the water and stuff, and our our
30:37
tour guide as we were swimming in the water, our tour guide says,
30:41
you know, look, I tell this to all the tourists, and he
30:45
points to the waterfall and he says, you know, look, if you
30:48
can if you can swim up to the waterfall, like the current is really
30:52
strong as the closer you get to the waterfall. But if you can swim
30:55
up to the waterfall and touch the rock, then that's that's that's the challenge.
30:59
Can you do that? That's all. Like my brother and I are
31:00
trying to do it. We're swimming and we're trying to touch it. Eventually,
31:03
eventually we do it. It's okay. So that's one challenge, he
31:07
says. The other challenge is if you can climb the waterfall, like through
31:12
the through the spray, right. He says, I've been doing I've been
31:18
a tour guide here for twelve years and and you know, hundreds of tourists,
31:22
only seven have done that. And I got it in my head and
31:26
at the end and you know, we try it, we get knocked off
31:30
the thing. I get it in my head. I'm like, seven have
31:33
done it. Seven have done it. That means it's doable. That means
31:37
there's some way. You know that they're they're the footholds and the handholds there,
31:42
there's some way to do this. Flash forward to for the next several
31:48
hours, I held it. I held everybody up. For the next several
31:52
hours I spent trying to climb this damn waterfall. Oh my god, after
31:56
everyone else gave up, and I'm getting and I'm getting my butt kicked,
31:59
I'm getting tossed back into the lagoon again and again again. One of the
32:04
other people on the tour, you know it says to uh, my girlfriend
32:08
at the time was along with instead of my girl, he's got to give
32:13
up, and she goes, oh no, oh no, he doesn't do
32:15
that because he knows there's a way up now. And eventually you get a
32:20
little, little higher, little high events. I made it to the top
32:22
of the waterfall, and I remember exhausted and you knowing, wow, looking
32:30
looking at everybody down on the shore. Who do you think I looked at
32:34
the one person I looked at of course I look at my dad. My
32:37
dad has the sunglasses on, he's looking the other way, and I'm like,
32:42
man, what a what a perfect metaphor for so many things. But
32:46
my point is what made the difference. It made the difference that I knew
32:52
it could be done, Like once you know it could be done. That's
32:55
one of the reasons why I used to have with my my my form mentor
32:58
and I used to go back and forth all the time about the value of
33:02
of being open about our lived experiences as survivor. And she was a very
33:07
traditional traditional therapist with like, well, you know, look that that's that's
33:13
not our role, Like it's going to contaminate the transference, and and and
33:16
it opens that us up for counter transference and and and and we can't.
33:22
And we never did agree on that because I really feel that one of the
33:24
things. Now, of course, you need to be very clear about why
33:28
you're doing it, you need to be really clear about your boundaries with it,
33:30
and then you know, it always needs to be guided by a clinical
33:32
rationale. But one of the reasons why I always speak in terms of we,
33:37
Like if you look at anything I write, I write in terms of
33:39
we. I never say no, this is what you will experience that,
33:42
this is what we experience as survivors is because that that flips that switch of
33:47
it's possible. Yeah, amazing, awesome story. My god, Look,
33:57
Glenn, got to have you back. Just super super excited I met you
34:05
and we we connected. But very very powerful, I mean really powerful when
34:13
or rather how can people get in contact with you? So my my blog
34:20
is at use your Damn Skills dot com. My my website, my practice
34:25
website is at Realistic Life Change dot com. But I am I'm most visible
34:32
out there on on Twitter and Instagram, and we have a really great community
34:37
on Facebook. So if you look up doctor Glenn Patrick Doyle, is I
34:42
just I used to say just doctor Glenn Doyle, but then I always got
34:45
confused with the self help person glennon Doyle. There's a self help writer named
34:49
Glenn and Dole, Like, what are the odds? What are the odds?
34:51
Not only would there be a writer, but a self help writer named
34:53
Glennan Doyle. But if you look up Glenn Patrick Doyle, my my screen
34:58
name is doctor Doyle, says on all of the things you'll find me.
35:01
I'm around awesome, awesome, appreciate it well look again. Great meeting you,
35:07
thank you so much for taking the time and we'll be in touch.
35:09
It is my pleasure guy, Thank you so much. All right, take care,