Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Chris Tomlin on The First Hymn, Early Church, and Worship

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Chris Tomlin on The First Hymn, Early Church, and Worship · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

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  Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey Chris, thanks for joining me. Great to
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  Speaker 1: see you buddy again once again. Award winning singer Chris Tomlin,
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  Speaker 1: who was featured in the new movie The First Him.
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  Speaker 1: The First hammovie dot com as the website. The film
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  Speaker 1: traces the discovery of what many scholars believe is the
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  Speaker 1: oldest known Christian him about one years old. Of course, Chris,
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  Speaker 1: we have music and scripture, but this is the oldest
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  Speaker 1: known Christian him complete, I believe, with lyrics and musical notations. Yet,
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  Speaker 1: what was your reaction when you first heard about this
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  Speaker 1: and when they asked you to be involved in this. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: my buddy Ben Fielding, who is the incredible songwriter. People
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  Speaker 1: would know his songs, amazing songs, and he called me
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  Speaker 1: and said, I got an idea and I want to
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  Speaker 1: run by you if you'd be interested. And he shared
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  Speaker 1: with me this idea of this early the first hymn
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  Speaker 1: ever discovered, the first song ever discovered from the two
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  Speaker 1: hundreds in and it had musical notations, not musical notation
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  Speaker 1: that we would know. It's completely foreign to us, but
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  Speaker 1: it had it had some notation it had and it
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  Speaker 1: had a lyric and it was a It was a
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  Speaker 1: piece of papyrus that was torn and it was in
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  Speaker 1: a trash heap that was discovered and it has been
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  Speaker 1: in a vault in Oxford, and it's like and he said,
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  Speaker 1: my friend John Dixon, he said, look for you get
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  Speaker 1: on the call with us if you would and talk
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  Speaker 1: it through. So I get on a call, a zoom
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  Speaker 1: call with this guy, John Dixon, who is this Australian
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  Speaker 1: historian and theologian. And this has been his project, his
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  Speaker 1: something he's been wanting to do for years, bring this
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  Speaker 1: to life, bring this song back to the church. What
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  Speaker 1: it'd be like to bring this song back to the church,
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  Speaker 1: And so you can imagine I was. It was fear
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  Speaker 1: and trembling for man, like, that's a massive responsibility to
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  Speaker 1: take something so precious. I mean, this is the earliest
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  Speaker 1: known lyric ever discovered obviously outside like you said, outside
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  Speaker 1: the Psalms and some of the songs in the Bible.
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  Speaker 1: This is the earliest known since And so yeah, he's like,
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  Speaker 1: would you guys, could you guys, what do you think
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  Speaker 1: about thinking this and creating it in a modern way?
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  Speaker 1: And I said, wow, what a privilege is So ben
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  Speaker 1: as beginning we've been getting to go to work, it said,
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  Speaker 1: you know, no promise is, but let's see what happens,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and that and that was the third of
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  Speaker 1: the journey. What is the challenge then, of honoring the
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  Speaker 1: original text while making it kind of new?
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  Speaker 2: I guess for today, what's really cool is what John
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  Speaker 2: to be able to have someone like John alongside was,
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  Speaker 2: who is an historian, who as theologian, who knows so
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  Speaker 2: much more about this than I would ever know, who's
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  Speaker 2: given this life to the study of these things.
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  Speaker 1: He said, what you need to know a couple of things, guys.
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  Speaker 1: One is this melody, although it's foreign to us, was
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  Speaker 1: a common melody of the day. It would have been
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  Speaker 1: like a pop melody of the day. Wasn't some it's
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  Speaker 1: not some Gregorian chant. It's not something you think of
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  Speaker 1: the ancient songs of the church. It's not that at all.
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  Speaker 1: This would have just been a common song of the day.
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  Speaker 1: The way they have sung it. This melody had been
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  Speaker 1: very common to the Egyptian people. So that was interesting.
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  Speaker 1: So it's like he says, so I want you to
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  Speaker 1: have the freedom to make it in the common language
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  Speaker 1: of today, a common melody that people would think of today.
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  Speaker 1: And then he began to just and then we get
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  Speaker 1: to share a little bit about some of the melodies
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  Speaker 1: and how they worked, and so we pulled some of
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  Speaker 1: that in this to the song. And like I said,
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  Speaker 1: it's a piece of pirates that is torn, and so
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  Speaker 1: we don't have the full lyric, and so we had
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  Speaker 1: I think it's about thirty nine words or something like
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  Speaker 1: that that was on there, and so there was a
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  Speaker 1: so Ben and I added a couple of little phrases
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  Speaker 1: to kind of make it all feel like a song
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  Speaker 1: today and just started going were just throwing different ideas
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  Speaker 1: and what resonated, and just pray and asking God, what
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  Speaker 1: would what's the right way to do this, and just
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  Speaker 1: asking God for a melody and asking him, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and writing this together. And I'm really pleased how it
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  Speaker 1: came out. I think, if I remember correct, with the
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  Speaker 1: hymn references to the Trinity, it does, which which comes
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  Speaker 1: a full century before the Council of Nicea in three five,
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  Speaker 1: which of course makes this like it takes it up
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  Speaker 1: a level in terms of significant and important. So that's
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  Speaker 1: exciting for you guys to be able to tackle that.
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  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about hymns. Christian Christians,
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  Speaker 1: of course, often debate hims versus contemporary worship songs. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: after working on this, how do you see those two
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  Speaker 1: traditions fitting together? Did this change in perspective? I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I know, I know you guys, even someone who's always
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  Speaker 1: embraced both, But how does how does perhaps this change
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  Speaker 1: of perspective? And what do you think about that question
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  Speaker 1: of it? YEA, that's a great question because I love
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  Speaker 1: this is probably my favorite part about the song. But
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  Speaker 1: him has always been a part, big part of me.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like as a songwriter, you got to know
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  Speaker 1: it's especially for the church, you need to immerse yourself
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  Speaker 1: and what's come before you. And I'd love to I
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  Speaker 1: dig into the hymns always. I love the lyrics. I
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  Speaker 1: love just letting that and I've always They've always spoken
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  Speaker 1: to me. And they're powerful and some of the best
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  Speaker 1: songs ever written. There's a reason some of them will
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  Speaker 1: lasted a couple of hundred years, three or four hundred years.
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  Speaker 1: There's a reason for that because they're so beautifully powerful written.
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  Speaker 1: What I love about this is that it connects us
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  Speaker 1: obviously to the early church, and it reminds us that
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  Speaker 1: and this is before think about it, this is we're
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  Speaker 1: singing this, This is before there was well, that's that's
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  Speaker 1: coming from the Baptist dream, that's coming from the Pentecostal stream,
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  Speaker 1: and that's come that's a Catholic that's coming from this.
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  Speaker 1: This just predates all of it. This is just the
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  Speaker 1: early band of believers who would have maybe lost their
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  Speaker 1: life for their faith. Grab it in it somewhere in
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  Speaker 1: a church, somewhere in a little meaning spot somewhere underground.
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  Speaker 1: This is what they're singing. And wow, and to connect
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  Speaker 1: us to that, and it takes takes me to the
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  Speaker 1: pure place for me and where it's not about the
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  Speaker 1: latest thing or the thing. It is just about the
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  Speaker 1: pure place and bringing praise to God. And Michael, what's
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  Speaker 1: insane about this is I've always said that the great
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  Speaker 1: that and I've tried to write songs that point people,
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  Speaker 1: that point people to the greater story to live. I
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  Speaker 1: think worship it lifts our eyes off ourselfs and points
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  Speaker 1: people to the greater, the greater story. That's what the
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  Speaker 1: great songs do. And there's this song, the very first
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  Speaker 1: so that think about this, the very first song we see.
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  Speaker 1: There's lots of songs. I always call them songs of
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  Speaker 1: deliverance and songs are transcendence. The songs of deliverance are
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  Speaker 1: those worship songs of Lord. I need you, amazing grace
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  Speaker 1: that saved a wretch like me. Those songs of the
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  Speaker 1: songs are full of it, They're amazing. But those songs,
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  Speaker 1: those songs are transcendence, the Holy, Holy, Holy Right, the
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  Speaker 1: songs of How great is our God? That all the
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  Speaker 1: the songs that are just about God are They change
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  Speaker 1: the room. And isn't it amazing that the very first
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  Speaker 1: song that we find in a scrap heap in Egypt
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  Speaker 1: is let all be silent, Let the rivers stop, let
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  Speaker 1: the mat let the stars stop shining, let all be still.
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  Speaker 1: To end we Him, the Father's Son and Holy Spirit,
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  Speaker 1: to the only giver of all good gifts. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it's just this sure praise, and it reminds us of that. Meant,
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  Speaker 1: that's what it's about. It bringing praise and grathering the
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  Speaker 1: people of God and bringing our praise to God, to
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  Speaker 1: lifting our eyes to remembering this God and worshiping Him,
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  Speaker 1: and bringing our praise to the enjoining the eternal song.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I think about that the long answer to
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  Speaker 1: your question, But I think about Holy, I think about
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  Speaker 1: time out tie his name was Holy Forever, and you're like,
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  Speaker 1: what do you mean? Think about the first verse, and
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  Speaker 1: this is what I was thinking of when we wrote
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  Speaker 1: Holy Forever. I was actually this is Holy Forever's but
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  Speaker 1: was before this opportunity. But I was even thinking about
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  Speaker 1: this when when I wrote A thousand generations falling down
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  Speaker 1: in worship to sing the Song of Ages to the Lamb,
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  Speaker 1: and all who've gone before us, and all who will
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  Speaker 1: believe will sing the Song of Ages to the Lamb.
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  Speaker 1: Singing this song is we're joining those who've gone before
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  Speaker 1: us in a very powerful, powerful way, and just we're
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  Speaker 1: the next to take that torch right and to lift
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  Speaker 1: our soul to Jesus. Amen of that. Before we close,
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  Speaker 1: I want to chat with you about what you're doing
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  Speaker 1: right now. Of course, you are on a tour right
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  Speaker 1: now with Winter and Jam. I should also mention you
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  Speaker 1: have a new album, The King Is Still the King,
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  Speaker 1: which released I believe last last September. Yes, you're currently
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  Speaker 1: on Winter Jam. What are one or two things that
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  Speaker 1: God is teaching you on this tour, Perhaps something you're
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  Speaker 1: inspired by daily about the body of Christ, or maybe
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  Speaker 1: even personally it's people. I mean, I just love I'm
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  Speaker 1: seeing I'm getting to connect with on Winter Jam. I'm
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  Speaker 1: I'm connecting with a lot of people that I've really
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  Speaker 1: I'm being grief for Everybody's like, I've never seen you
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  Speaker 1: play before. I've been to because Winners Jam kind of
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  Speaker 1: has its crowd right as it's ever every year people
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  Speaker 1: go to Winter Jam no matter who's playing this, but
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  Speaker 1: I've never this is my first time on Winter Jam.
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  Speaker 1: Is so I love the hunger. I feel like there's
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  Speaker 1: a hunger right now, and so connect you with these people,
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  Speaker 1: a lot of people who it's my first time to
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  Speaker 1: play this music. I've been doing this thirty thirty years,
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  Speaker 1: and so many people that are that are coming to this.
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  Speaker 1: This is the first time I've gotten to play in
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  Speaker 1: lee worship with these people. And so I've been really
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  Speaker 1: blown away, surprised in a good way of just the
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  Speaker 1: hunger of people when we just the hunger of worship
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  Speaker 1: and we ending that every night, holy forever, and how
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  Speaker 1: great is our God? After all the music, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a Winter gam it was a long day of music.
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  Speaker 1: It's a long night of music. It's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: bands into the exclamation mark, just ending with holy forever
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  Speaker 1: is how great is our God, disappointing people to God.
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  Speaker 1: Is singing? What a privilege? I just I am so
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  Speaker 1: inspired every day and love sing that Pete, love seeing
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  Speaker 1: these people worship God. And it never My daughter asked
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  Speaker 1: me this past week when I got home, She goes, Dad,
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  Speaker 1: does ever get Do you ever get tired of playing
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  Speaker 1: your own songs? And I was, and I can honestly answer.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, I don't I get
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  Speaker 1: tired of the try. I will get there, of being
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  Speaker 1: away from home. But I love that moment of being
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  Speaker 1: with the people every time. It just worshiping God together.
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  Speaker 1: It's just so special. Well, there's so much negativity in
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  Speaker 1: the world, but it seems like I would think coming
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  Speaker 1: together multiple nights with thousands of other people and worship
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  Speaker 1: transforms you, especially if you're on stage leading it. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: do you do you find it? How does that? I
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  Speaker 1: guess what I'm asking is, Chris, what are your thoughts
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  Speaker 1: after a long day of maybe watching the news, come
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  Speaker 1: in together and doing what you do at night during
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  Speaker 1: winter jam? Is it does it change how you view
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  Speaker 1: maybe culture, the world, society, the future. It's what worship does,
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  Speaker 1: It's what worship should do, and it reminds us, lifts
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  Speaker 1: our eyes to the greater story. There's a there's a
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of stories going on with worse today's
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of things going on, a lot of broken.
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  Speaker 1: It's a lot of hurt wars, things that we don't
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  Speaker 1: agree with, things do agree with, things that we're just
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  Speaker 1: so frustrated, and it's just so much, like you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's this, it's mankind. It's like broken, it's sin, it's awful,
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  Speaker 1: and it's all you're inundated with. And if you don't
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  Speaker 1: have those times of like just stepping back and going,
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  Speaker 1: wait a minute, Governments rise, governments fall, Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall,
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  Speaker 1: people rise, people fall, But there is one thing that
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  Speaker 1: is everlasting. There's one everlasting king. That's why I called
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  Speaker 1: my record the King is Still the King. That thread
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  Speaker 1: has woven through this whole the whole album, everything is
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  Speaker 1: everything I'll try to say, and worship is pointing people
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  Speaker 1: to that that we are part of an everlasting kingdom
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  Speaker 1: that reigns forever and things on this and that is
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  Speaker 1: our hope. If we didn't have that, what kind of
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  Speaker 1: hope do you have in this world? I mean, like
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  Speaker 1: you said, you watch the news. You're like, where's the hope.
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  Speaker 1: But our hope is in an everlasting kingdom, that one
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  Speaker 1: day all things will be made right, and that this
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  Speaker 1: world is broken and is and the Scripture tells us that,
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  Speaker 1: and that is some that with death where we live in.
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  Speaker 1: But we are the light of the world. We're sharing
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  Speaker 1: that light. Get to share that light every day and
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  Speaker 1: remind people of that. And I know people walking in
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  Speaker 1: every night to winter jam. There's thousands of people. So
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  Speaker 1: people are carrying different things, people carrying handy burdens, people
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  Speaker 1: are carrying brokenness. People are carrying so many things. And
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  Speaker 1: I pray every night the presence of God touches people
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  Speaker 1: and lists their spirit and fills them. The scripture says
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  Speaker 1: the joy the Lord is our strength that fills them
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  Speaker 1: with joy and again. And that's more an opportunity every
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  Speaker 1: night that we have to do that. And I'm such
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  Speaker 1: I'm so honored to do it and such a privilege
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  Speaker 1: to do it.
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  Speaker 3: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe
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  Speaker 3: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go
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  Speaker 1: See you next time.