Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / An Overview of Women Coaches and Referees

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An Overview of Women Coaches and Referees · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha, and wellcome stuff.
0:07
Speaker 2: I've never told you protictive of iHeart radio, and welcome
0:19
Speaker 2: to a long awaited episode that we're doing on women,
0:24
Speaker 2: referees and coaches. Brief content warning for sexist language. Samantha,
0:32
Speaker 2: when you look back in your experience, did you see
0:36
Speaker 2: or or have more male coaches or female coaches?
0:40
Speaker 3: Well, so, the only sports I really participated in was cheerleading,
0:46
Speaker 3: so for that, you know, I only had women coaches
0:50
Speaker 3: for those. But I will say when I was watching
0:53
Speaker 3: my friends who competed in tennis and in cross country,
0:57
Speaker 3: it was all men. Now that I'm thinking about it,
1:00
Speaker 3: more and more that the few and even for like
1:03
Speaker 3: women's basketball, girls basketball, we had a whole issue inappropriate
1:10
Speaker 3: behavior from our coach who was beloved. But then like, yeah,
1:13
Speaker 3: it's easily like those beloved coaches are the ones like yeah, okay,
1:17
Speaker 3: that makes sense, he's a little too close to the students.
1:19
Speaker 3: But anyway, it was a dude obviously as I say this,
1:23
Speaker 3: but yeah, I think now that I'm thinking about it,
1:25
Speaker 3: even for the girls teams or like mixed teams, it
1:28
Speaker 3: was all typically men, and the ones that were highly
1:33
Speaker 3: regarded were always men, like even outside of like again,
1:38
Speaker 3: a couple of the cheerleading squads.
1:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, what about you.
1:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think looking back.
1:45
Speaker 1: I did a couple of sports.
1:48
Speaker 2: That were more leaning towards girls, so like gymnastics that
1:54
Speaker 2: was all women. But when I got into high school,
1:59
Speaker 2: I was insecure. Therefore I didn't compete in sports. But
2:03
Speaker 2: so most of the coaches I saw when other people
2:06
Speaker 2: were competing were men. There were a couple of outliers,
2:10
Speaker 2: and they were they were women who were very beloved.
2:13
Speaker 2: But also, yeah, we had a lot of with those
2:15
Speaker 2: men coaches, there were just rumors of them being kind
2:21
Speaker 2: of creepers, so and it was just accepted. It was
2:26
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, yep, that's that's how they are. But
2:31
Speaker 2: my school was also pretty small, so was yours. Right,
2:34
Speaker 2: You're just very small.
2:35
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah.
2:36
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how many I thinkl like we
2:38
Speaker 3: had one hundred. I think it was ours is bigger
2:42
Speaker 3: than yours, So like one hundred and thirty people graduate
2:44
Speaker 3: in my class. There was only one high school, I
2:48
Speaker 3: believe in the entire county.
2:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I've seem to recall I had a ninety
2:56
Speaker 2: one number of graduating people in my class.
2:59
Speaker 1: But I don't know.
3:01
Speaker 2: I could be wrong. That's the number that I've liked.
3:05
Speaker 2: It's been a while, that's the number that stands out
3:07
Speaker 2: to me. But yeah, I just feel mostly women coaches
3:14
Speaker 2: in my experience were like outliers, and there weren't really
3:17
Speaker 2: referees in my experience. This episode Listeners was what I'll
3:23
Speaker 2: call a folly on my part because I was like,
3:27
Speaker 2: surely this will be a simple one to put together.
3:30
Speaker 2: It's it wasn't. And in fact, I'm just going to
3:36
Speaker 2: go ahead and put a disclaimer up here. You could
3:39
Speaker 2: break down the history of coaches and referees in pretty
3:43
Speaker 2: much every sport and it could be a full episode.
3:46
Speaker 2: There has been a lot of research into it, so
3:49
Speaker 2: today we are going to be talking about some of
3:52
Speaker 2: the history, specifically in the realm of football slash soccer
3:56
Speaker 2: and American football issues and potential solutions. This is by
4:02
Speaker 2: no means comprehensive. I'm actually really impressed at how many
4:08
Speaker 2: detailed sources that I found looking to this, But a
4:12
Speaker 2: lot of it is recent, a lot of it is
4:14
Speaker 2: very very soon, of course, yes, and we're going to
4:18
Speaker 2: talk about that soon because a lot of the first
4:20
Speaker 2: I was like, oh.
4:21
Speaker 1: Really, last year yep, yeah, yep.
4:26
Speaker 4: It sucks.
4:28
Speaker 1: It does suck, and it does have It's important. It
4:32
Speaker 1: is important.
4:33
Speaker 2: So to start, I tried to find like a general
4:37
Speaker 2: definition of a coach and referee.
4:40
Speaker 1: People don't really seem to agree.
4:42
Speaker 2: On even that, So basically I would say coach is
4:46
Speaker 2: someone who guides and supports.
4:50
Speaker 1: Athletes, usually on a team.
4:53
Speaker 2: There are no consistent guidelines or requirements, though it often
4:58
Speaker 2: involves getting a coaching and teaching license and perhaps other
5:01
Speaker 2: credentials that can look very differently depending on the sport,
5:05
Speaker 2: depending on where you are. Referees this was even less
5:12
Speaker 2: less regulated from what I could find. Please, if anyone
5:15
Speaker 2: is a coach a referee professionally or not, write in,
5:20
Speaker 2: but yes, they're they're basically monitoring the game, watching for
5:27
Speaker 2: any like breaking of rules or something like that. And
5:34
Speaker 2: to become one it seemed like it was sort of
5:36
Speaker 2: all over the place based on sport. But basically you
5:38
Speaker 2: have to pass a rules exam and then you sort
5:40
Speaker 2: of work your way up from the bottom.
5:44
Speaker 1: That's what it sounded like.
5:45
Speaker 2: Then I discovered I knew about this, but I don't
5:47
Speaker 2: know why I've never thought about it. The people who
5:50
Speaker 2: watched the like videos yeah. Yeah, so that's a whole
5:55
Speaker 2: different thing we're going to have to come back to
5:57
Speaker 2: because women are just breaking grounds and that you're at
6:00
Speaker 2: as well.
6:01
Speaker 3: Right, we're not even talking about commentators and how much
6:04
Speaker 3: they missed they make, Like Tom Brady just got millions
6:08
Speaker 3: of dollars of a.
6:09
Speaker 4: Contract to work with Fox Sports.
6:11
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's talk about that's a whole different world.
6:17
Speaker 3: But of course, all of this means, all of this
6:19
Speaker 3: is conversations about how much money is and can be
6:23
Speaker 3: made in this industry and who is given to But
6:25
Speaker 3: you know, again, we'll come back to that later. But
6:29
Speaker 3: whever you do all of that, let's talk about a
6:31
Speaker 3: little bit, a little bit of stance, stance, a little
6:34
Speaker 3: bit of stance.
6:35
Speaker 4: Handy or a couple, you know, quick ones.
6:37
Speaker 3: So when it comes to the US, as the twenty
6:39
Speaker 3: twenty two, about thirty percent of high school varsity coaches
6:42
Speaker 3: were women compared to a seventy percent of men, which
6:45
Speaker 3: is more than I thought it would be, to be
6:47
Speaker 3: very honest, especially in high schools because they're pretty competitive.
6:52
Speaker 3: High school is a day are interesting level making come
6:56
Speaker 3: on Friday night lights. They made hit shows based on
7:00
Speaker 3: coaching and teams in high schools.
7:02
Speaker 4: But whatever.
7:03
Speaker 3: And according to the Conversation quote, today men occupy nearly
7:07
Speaker 3: seventy five percent of all head coaching positions in collegiate athletics,
7:13
Speaker 3: again lower than I thought. I would have thought it
7:17
Speaker 3: was ninety percent. But you know, the BBC recently reported
7:20
Speaker 3: that the number of women's referees in English football had
7:23
Speaker 3: increased by seventy two percent as of twenty sixteen.
7:27
Speaker 4: And that was in twenty twenty.
7:29
Speaker 2: Huh really yeah, yeah, We're going to talk about that
7:33
Speaker 2: in a second, but I do want to clarify the
7:36
Speaker 2: English football is important because it was specifically about in England.
7:42
Speaker 3: England, yes, which is I haven't watched a lot of
7:47
Speaker 3: English football soccer, I'm assuming recently and I've never but
7:51
Speaker 3: I've yet to see a woman being a referee, so
7:54
Speaker 3: that's interesting.
7:56
Speaker 1: Oh it's pretty recent.
7:59
Speaker 5: We well's talk about it, yes, but I did want
8:03
Speaker 5: to put in here before we get into it, a
8:05
Speaker 5: quick note about why it matters, because I think one
8:09
Speaker 5: thing that can't be quite captured in a definition is
8:12
Speaker 5: the power and impact of a good coach or a
8:14
Speaker 5: good referee, both in terms of fostering athletes, but in
8:19
Speaker 5: seeing that like, oh, I belong.
8:21
Speaker 2: Having women in these positions normalizes women's participation. It says
8:26
Speaker 2: like women are supposed to be here. It also allows
8:30
Speaker 2: for athletes to grow once they stop competing, and there's
8:34
Speaker 2: so much talent that is getting lost because these pathways
8:37
Speaker 2: don't really exist right now for women, or if they do,
8:41
Speaker 2: they're so crowded that women are getting pushed out. So
8:45
Speaker 2: it is important or bullied out, yeah, or bullied out.
8:50
Speaker 2: So yes, as we go into we're mostly going to
8:54
Speaker 2: talk about soccer a football, an American football. But yes,
9:03
Speaker 2: please forgive us because the history section is a bit
9:05
Speaker 2: cobbled together because sports history looks different all around the world,
9:10
Speaker 2: and it looks different in different sports. Also worth noting,
9:14
Speaker 2: in multiple cases, at some point or another, women were
9:18
Speaker 2: prohibited from competing officially in sports, which is pretty much
9:22
Speaker 2: how people become.
9:24
Speaker 1: Professional coaches and referees. So there's a lot of catching
9:27
Speaker 1: up to do in that sense. Yes, okay, but let
9:32
Speaker 1: us look at soccer slash football. While soccer football has
9:37
Speaker 1: a long history of being popular, patriarchal systems have often
9:40
Speaker 1: sought to keep women out, both as players and in
9:43
Speaker 1: any leadership or officiate positions. For instance, women were banned
9:49
Speaker 1: from playing on official Football League pitches in nineteen twenty one.
9:54
Speaker 1: Their official reason was that it was dangerous for women.
9:57
Speaker 1: We've talked about this before. Can't sweat what about our
10:02
Speaker 1: uter is. It's going to fall out, It's going to
10:04
Speaker 1: fall out. These are real things.
10:08
Speaker 2: The unofficial reason was that they didn't want women to
10:11
Speaker 2: threaten a quach men's sports.
10:15
Speaker 3: However, women's soccer has really taken off in recent years
10:19
Speaker 3: with a huge explosion of popularity. Attendance records have been broken,
10:22
Speaker 3: as have viewership records, and the skills on display are
10:26
Speaker 3: just as astounding. Still, when it comes to women coaching
10:30
Speaker 3: the sport, we're still lagging behind. Only one third of
10:33
Speaker 3: women's Super League coaches have a woman manager. The National
10:37
Speaker 3: Women's Soccer League or NWSL has fourteen clubs and only
10:42
Speaker 3: five are led by women.
10:45
Speaker 2: Austria's Edith Klinger is believed to be the first woman
10:49
Speaker 2: to referee both men and women's games. In nineteen thirty five, however,
10:54
Speaker 2: FIFA officially recognized Turkey's tresan Arda as the world's for
11:00
Speaker 2: football woman referee. She refereed her first match in nineteen
11:04
Speaker 2: sixty eight after years of training. Although FIFA is very
11:09
Speaker 2: like it has to be a FIFA event, So that
11:12
Speaker 2: makes sense to me, right. Betty Ellis was the first
11:16
Speaker 2: woman to officiate a professional US soccer game in nineteen
11:20
Speaker 2: eighty one, and then in nineteen ninety one we saw
11:24
Speaker 2: the first all women team to officiate a FIFA tournament. Earlier,
11:29
Speaker 2: Claudia Vasconcelos became the first woman to referee an official
11:33
Speaker 2: FIFA event at the first Women's World Cup. So the
11:38
Speaker 2: reason this kind of came out later because FIFA again
11:42
Speaker 2: wasn't sure if it was an official event, like they
11:45
Speaker 2: were like Women's World Cup. But then when they later
11:49
Speaker 2: were like, okay, it was an official event, then it
11:52
Speaker 2: was like she kind of retroactively got the recognition. Just
11:56
Speaker 2: a handful of years later we got the first woman
11:59
Speaker 2: to be designated as the first official FIFA accredited referee.
12:03
Speaker 3: So one woman who recently has been the source of
12:06
Speaker 3: a lot of coverage as Emma Hayes, who, after coaching
12:09
Speaker 3: the team and Chelsea, went on to coach the US
12:12
Speaker 3: women's national team.
12:13
Speaker 4: And led them to gold.
12:14
Speaker 3: She has been very vocal about the lack of women
12:17
Speaker 3: coaches and all the reasons she thinks that is. Things
12:20
Speaker 3: like cost and the gender wage gap, lack of education
12:23
Speaker 3: and attention, and lack of mentors, which kind of we
12:26
Speaker 3: talked about with the Olympics.
12:28
Speaker 2: Yes, In twenty twenty, in part because of COVID, the
12:34
Speaker 2: comic ball CEO Nmebol Copoa Libretatrees, the highest level of
12:41
Speaker 2: competition in South American club football, was the first game
12:44
Speaker 2: to feature only women referees. The video match officials were
12:49
Speaker 2: also women, meaning the entirety of the officiating team was
12:53
Speaker 2: composed of women. And I will say it's kind of unfortunate,
12:59
Speaker 2: but a lot of this did happen during COVID because
13:01
Speaker 2: men were getting COVID, So it was sort of like
13:07
Speaker 2: whoever could step up, and these women were definitely qualified.
13:10
Speaker 2: Do not get me wrong, but that's it was like
13:13
Speaker 2: all the men were sick. In twenty twenty two, Stephanie
13:20
Speaker 2: Frappar became the first woman to officiate a men's World
13:23
Speaker 2: Cup game. She also had like a bunch of other
13:25
Speaker 2: first She had two women assistants too at this time.
13:29
Speaker 2: He was at Back of Brazil and Karen Diaz Medina
13:32
Speaker 2: of Mexico. And yeah, there are still first happening. In
13:38
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the first woman was appointed to coach
13:40
Speaker 2: a professional British football team. I saw something today because
13:44
Speaker 2: of course, when you're researching something like this, you start
13:46
Speaker 2: getting news updates all the time right about other first
13:50
Speaker 2: that are happening. So it's one of those things where
13:53
Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, I'm happy, but I'm shocked that
13:55
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, really this is.
13:58
Speaker 4: Yeah in twenty twenty four, finally I guess.
14:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
14:05
Speaker 2: And that is the briefest of overview of women coaches
14:10
Speaker 2: and referees in soccer. Let us look at American football,
14:25
Speaker 2: so this was interesting to me. American football the rules
14:29
Speaker 2: and sport were formalized in the eighteen seventies, and one
14:33
Speaker 2: of the main stated goals of this sport was to
14:36
Speaker 2: reinforce and shore up what was believed to be fading
14:40
Speaker 2: manliness in white and closed Saxon men due to increased
14:44
Speaker 2: immigration and the closed frontier. But even in these early days,
14:49
Speaker 2: women were present as coaches. The so called father of football,
14:54
Speaker 2: Walter Camp, often missed practices and his wife Alice would
14:58
Speaker 2: take his place. She took these really intense notes. She
15:02
Speaker 2: made play suggestions. The team, who were undefeated in eighteen
15:07
Speaker 2: eighty eight, considered her a coach on the same level
15:10
Speaker 2: as her husband. At reunion celebration twenty five years later,
15:13
Speaker 2: both she and her husband were labeled head coaches. So
15:18
Speaker 2: women weren't there. Whether they were getting the credit necessarily
15:22
Speaker 2: different story, but they were there, and she was not
15:25
Speaker 2: the only one. Prior to World War One, a roster
15:28
Speaker 2: of American women coach men's football teams from the Washington Post.
15:33
Speaker 2: Names like Lillian Merrill, Annie Bragdon, Estelle Sherwin, Carrie Brookhart,
15:38
Speaker 2: and Cosette Brannon were all there. Two of them, Bragden
15:43
Speaker 2: and Burkhart, boasted undefeated seasons at the time. One of
15:48
Speaker 2: the main aspects of this sport was its violence. It
15:53
Speaker 2: was something that journals wrote about, including injuries and even death.
15:58
Speaker 2: So these women coaching such a violent sport broke accepted
16:02
Speaker 2: Western gender stereotypes in multiple ways. Generally, they coached school
16:09
Speaker 2: aged teams. Women did pretty much anything above that. In
16:12
Speaker 2: the rare case it happened was usually because of lack
16:15
Speaker 2: of funding to pay for a mail coach or something
16:19
Speaker 2: something like that. A second choice like women that's the
16:24
Speaker 2: second choice. Women that were still viewed as largely spectators
16:28
Speaker 2: to the men, being madly and somewhat of a calming
16:32
Speaker 2: influence in the audience. Yeah, this actually was the thing
16:39
Speaker 2: in a lot of Western countries, regardless of sports, as
16:42
Speaker 2: were sexist, racist, ablest, and homophobic guidelines designed to keep
16:47
Speaker 2: marginalized people out or harassing them if they somehow managed
16:51
Speaker 2: to participate.
16:53
Speaker 3: Right. So that shifted a bit during World War One
16:56
Speaker 3: when men went away to fight the war and women
16:58
Speaker 3: stepped up into the positions as coaches, a story as
17:02
Speaker 3: old as time in high schools and college positions. The
17:05
Speaker 3: same thing happened during World War Two, and some of
17:08
Speaker 3: these coaches won titles. Once the men returned from the war,
17:12
Speaker 3: many of the women were forced out, though some remained
17:16
Speaker 3: coaching for many more years.
17:18
Speaker 4: Go back to the leg of their own. That's that
17:20
Speaker 4: whole scenario.
17:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh huh. Some reporters from the
17:25
Speaker 2: time describe these women coaches as radical and strange. Their
17:31
Speaker 2: husbands were often pointedly mentioned as if to reassure folks
17:36
Speaker 2: that they are still straight women in the domestic sphere,
17:40
Speaker 2: or even crediting their husbands with the women's knowledge and talents. Yeah,
17:46
Speaker 2: when Pauline Foster's team beat a team coach by a man,
17:49
Speaker 2: it was reported on with almost amusement, like he'll never
17:52
Speaker 2: live down this embarrassment, as opposed to crediting her talent,
17:57
Speaker 2: which they often did attribute to her spend. And of course,
18:02
Speaker 2: the physical appearances of the women coaches was the point
18:05
Speaker 2: of attention to in a way that it wasn't for men.
18:09
Speaker 2: Descriptions like beautiful, attractive, and buxom blonde were pretty standard.
18:14
Speaker 4: That were buxhom that it gets me every time.
18:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
18:19
Speaker 2: After a bit of a dead period for women American
18:21
Speaker 2: football coaches, nineteen seventy two's Title nine put in place
18:24
Speaker 2: rules to foster quality in women's sports in education settings,
18:30
Speaker 2: but this mostly pertained to athletes and not coaches or referees.
18:35
Speaker 2: Women coaches were still met with suspicion and derision. Some
18:39
Speaker 2: universities and institutions even had in place rules that prohibited
18:43
Speaker 2: women from holding these positions, even assistant coaching positions. Before
18:49
Speaker 2: Title nine, ninety percent of intercollegiate women's teams were coached
18:53
Speaker 2: by women, largely unpaid. However, after Title nine, there was
18:57
Speaker 2: a huge growth in teams and men started to take
19:00
Speaker 2: these roles thanks to biases and also, yeah, the roles
19:03
Speaker 2: were now paid, so like now men were like.
19:06
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll take that job.
19:10
Speaker 2: In twenty fourteen, women accounted for only forty three percent
19:14
Speaker 2: of these positions. So basically, yeah, now women's teams were
19:18
Speaker 2: getting money, they were getting resources, and suddenly men sow
19:23
Speaker 2: it as a legitimate career path to coach these teams.
19:28
Speaker 1: Of course, yep.
19:30
Speaker 2: I did find some arguments that first and second wave
19:33
Speaker 2: feminism were part to blame for the unintended consequences of
19:37
Speaker 2: the lower number of women coaches and refs, and the
19:40
Speaker 2: argument goes that these movements wanted women's sports under women's spheres,
19:45
Speaker 2: all women's clubs, perhaps specific rules. It was interesting. I
19:50
Speaker 2: was like, I guess, I don't know. It was an
19:55
Speaker 2: interesting argument. Yes, a few women were able to break through,
19:59
Speaker 2: and including Carol White, who worked with kickers at my
20:03
Speaker 2: alma mater, Georgia Tech as a graduate assistant in nineteen
20:07
Speaker 2: eighty six. Some say this makes her the first woman
20:10
Speaker 2: to coach in an NCAA Division One football tournament. Oh,
20:15
Speaker 2: people do like to argue about all this stuff, though
20:18
Speaker 2: was probably not a surprise. Another thing people argue about
20:21
Speaker 2: when Natalie Randolph started coaching a men's high school football
20:24
Speaker 2: team in twenty ten, she was widely celebrated as the
20:28
Speaker 2: first women coach of a men's high school team. But
20:31
Speaker 2: if you've been listening to the history section, others will say, no, way,
20:35
Speaker 2: that can't be true. I think it's more of a
20:40
Speaker 2: in our recent times kind of thing. Yeah, in twenty twenty,
20:46
Speaker 2: there were a lot of headlines about history being made
20:48
Speaker 2: around women raps and coaches in NFL football. That season,
20:53
Speaker 2: there were twelve women coaches working. It was the first
20:56
Speaker 2: Super Bowl to feature two women coaches, and soar Thomas
21:00
Speaker 2: became the first woman referee to officiate a Super Bowl game.
21:04
Speaker 2: She also previously had broken other first, including becoming the
21:08
Speaker 2: first full time woman referee for the NFL. And yeah,
21:13
Speaker 2: the case of American football is interesting because women don't
21:16
Speaker 2: play it professionally, so there's not a pipeline of player
21:22
Speaker 2: to coach, right.
21:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
21:26
Speaker 2: That's also could be broken down into a much bigger
21:29
Speaker 2: episode because there's still a lot of first happening there.
21:34
Speaker 2: But let us talk about some of the issues here
21:39
Speaker 2: that we found when researching this one. No surprise, harrassment.
21:45
Speaker 2: One of the biggest barriers women have reported in these
21:47
Speaker 2: positions is sexism and harrassment from players, spectators, and other officials.
21:53
Speaker 2: Here are some examples from Forbes quote if women want
21:57
Speaker 2: equal rights, then they need to learn how to referee.
22:00
Speaker 2: And from an amateur football coach, she should not be here.
22:03
Speaker 2: I know that sounds sexist, but I am sexist and
22:07
Speaker 2: if you start bringing in women, you have big problems.
22:10
Speaker 2: A senior vice president of the Football Association once said,
22:13
Speaker 2: one's place is in the kitchen and not on football field.
22:18
Speaker 4: I love it. That's their go to is always the kitchen. Always, yes,
22:22
Speaker 4: oh that is.
22:23
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about this in a minute, but
22:25
Speaker 1: that comes up all the time. That go back to
22:31
Speaker 1: the kitchen.
22:31
Speaker 4: Argument, right every time.
22:33
Speaker 3: Here's another quote from a referee named Anne, things like
22:36
Speaker 3: don't you know the supermarket is open? You should be
22:39
Speaker 3: there doing the shopping, or why aren't you at home cooking.
22:42
Speaker 4: Your husband's meal?
22:43
Speaker 3: Or you should be pregnant at the kitchen sink, or
22:46
Speaker 3: the worst one was I hope your children die of cancer.
22:50
Speaker 3: That was from a spectator. I remember one game, an
22:53
Speaker 3: FA Cup round, and I walked off and my daughter
22:56
Speaker 3: came running over to where the tunnel area was and
22:58
Speaker 3: she said, Mommy, what's the dyke. She was only about
23:01
Speaker 3: ten or eleven at the time, and I said, why, honey,
23:03
Speaker 3: and she said, because the man over there, he's been
23:05
Speaker 3: calling you one the whole game.
23:07
Speaker 1: Oh yikes.
23:10
Speaker 2: Many women in these positions have reported they are quote
23:13
Speaker 2: aware of their token status and the damage that does
23:17
Speaker 2: to their mental health. There have been multiple instances of
23:21
Speaker 2: verbal and physical abuse and threats in these fields. The
23:25
Speaker 2: verbal sexist abuse is the most observed. Many did say
23:30
Speaker 2: the abuse only became sexist when people disagreed with a call.
23:35
Speaker 2: In the case of a referee, right and one study,
23:38
Speaker 2: every single woman a referee interviewed reported having heard get
23:42
Speaker 2: back in the kitchen. So yes, that is their go to.
23:45
Speaker 2: That is their number one And actually it's like really depressing.
23:49
Speaker 2: But it's kind of a funny story because in one
23:52
Speaker 2: of the people from the study confronted one of the
23:55
Speaker 2: men who said it, and he came down and he
23:58
Speaker 2: was so could trite, and he's like old.
24:00
Speaker 1: Or why I said it? I'm so sorry. She was like,
24:03
Speaker 1: don't ever do that again and get out of here.
24:06
Speaker 4: What the hell?
24:09
Speaker 2: Oh that's funny, yeah, yeah, but it can get a
24:12
Speaker 2: lot darker. One person described basically thoughts of rape as
24:17
Speaker 2: an assistant referee. She was sixteen and she almost dropped
24:21
Speaker 2: out because of this experience, and the article was detailing
24:28
Speaker 2: the basically all of the fallout and damage of things
24:31
Speaker 2: like this and the loss of talent and women participating
24:36
Speaker 2: if this is what is normalized and accepted, because yeah,
24:40
Speaker 2: perhaps even more upsetting in a way. Some women did
24:43
Speaker 2: not recognize verbal sexist abuse, suggesting it's been so normal
24:51
Speaker 2: as they were just like, oh, I didn't think about it,
24:56
Speaker 2: which is sad. Others have reported not having places to
25:01
Speaker 2: change and when asking about it, management giving them like
25:06
Speaker 2: a storage cupboard or something, so that's not great. Also
25:14
Speaker 2: just being dismissed or not respected. A lot of people
25:17
Speaker 2: reported that referees always assuming that the man is the
25:21
Speaker 2: head coach.
25:22
Speaker 1: One woman in one of.
25:24
Speaker 2: These surveys said, when you make a mistake, it's because
25:27
Speaker 2: you're a woman. And yet there is sort of this
25:34
Speaker 2: other side of it of being labeled as not feminine enough, right,
25:38
Speaker 2: so like, you made that mistake because you're a woman,
25:41
Speaker 2: but you're not, you're not feminine, assumptions that they don't
25:45
Speaker 2: know the rules. There have been multiple instances of male commentators,
25:50
Speaker 2: like we talked about our Olympics episodes basically saying she's
25:52
Speaker 2: a woman, she doesn't know what she's doing, and they
25:55
Speaker 2: are like the commentators she's listening to during the game. Right, Yeah,
26:01
Speaker 2: stereotypes around physical and mental ability and inability to handle pressure.
26:07
Speaker 1: A lot of people reported, right.
26:08
Speaker 3: So here's a quote that sums it up pretty well.
26:11
Speaker 3: The studies findings demonstrate that men's gender identities afford them
26:14
Speaker 3: automatic and unquestioned access to the social dynamics of the
26:18
Speaker 3: coach education system. Women, on the other hand, have to
26:21
Speaker 3: earn this through their performance of appropriate levels of football
26:24
Speaker 3: knowledge and skill, and these expectations often go far beyond
26:27
Speaker 3: the level of performance required by men to gain the
26:30
Speaker 3: same credibility.
26:32
Speaker 2: Yes, and just as always, there's discrimination around having children
26:47
Speaker 2: that could get pregnant.
26:48
Speaker 4: Right.
26:50
Speaker 2: I read one that was basically a male interviewer. It's like, Oh,
26:54
Speaker 2: you don't want this job, you'll have to work on
26:56
Speaker 2: the weekends, You'll have kids, you got to.
26:58
Speaker 1: Take care of the kids. Okay.
27:01
Speaker 2: And here's something This is kind of more complicated. I'll
27:04
Speaker 2: talk about why in a second, but examples show women
27:07
Speaker 2: coaches are more likely to get fired for similar behaviors.
27:11
Speaker 2: Male coaches exhibit and are lauded for they are Women
27:16
Speaker 2: coaches are less likely to be renewed despite a track
27:19
Speaker 2: record for success. So, for instance, despite helping secure multiple
27:25
Speaker 2: national championships for the University of Minnesota Duluth women's hockey
27:29
Speaker 2: head coach Shannon Miller's contract was not renewed in twenty fourteen.
27:32
Speaker 2: She didn't have any violations or anything, and she sued
27:36
Speaker 2: for gender discrimination, a suit she ended up winning and
27:38
Speaker 2: was awarded three million dollars.
27:40
Speaker 4: Gotta get that money.
27:41
Speaker 1: Gotta get that money.
27:43
Speaker 2: In a lot of instances where women coaches are fired
27:45
Speaker 2: for abuse, they are never rehired, or if they are
27:48
Speaker 2: not at the same level. The same is not true
27:50
Speaker 2: for men. They don't usually get fired, and if they do,
27:54
Speaker 2: they get rehired at an equal or even better position.
27:58
Speaker 2: So I'm not advocating for this abuse, but the punishment
28:02
Speaker 2: should be equal.
28:04
Speaker 1: And that is not what we're seeing. Nope, it's not
28:09
Speaker 1: what we're seeing at all.
28:11
Speaker 2: There are a lot of toxic, old gender stereotypes here
28:13
Speaker 2: that basically boil down to traditionally masculine coded traits are better,
28:18
Speaker 2: but when a woman displays those straits, she is judged
28:20
Speaker 2: far more harshly. So a lot of the stuff we're
28:21
Speaker 2: talking about here is like a coach yelling at you,
28:24
Speaker 2: and it.
28:25
Speaker 1: Can be very abusive and has been.
28:29
Speaker 2: But it's seen as like when men do that, oh yeah,
28:34
Speaker 2: he's talking up his team. But when a woman doesn't, say, oh,
28:37
Speaker 2: look at this shrew, she got to be she's.
28:39
Speaker 1: Got to go again. I don't I'm not condoning abuse.
28:43
Speaker 4: I don't think it's right.
28:44
Speaker 2: But just saying here's a quote from the conversation. Another
28:49
Speaker 2: problem is that female college athletes seem to value coaches
28:52
Speaker 2: who act in dominance, sometimes authoritarian ways. When female athletes
28:56
Speaker 2: are asked what they want to coach, they'll say they
28:58
Speaker 2: want someone who's commanding, confidence, assertive, and knowledgeable. At the
29:01
Speaker 2: same time, female athletes consider ideal female coaches to be carrying, supportive,
29:06
Speaker 2: and nurturing. But this contradicts what they value in a coach.
29:11
Speaker 2: Female coaches ultimately find themselves in a double bind. They're
29:14
Speaker 2: damned if they act like men, and damned if they don't.
29:18
Speaker 1: Yep.
29:19
Speaker 2: Another issue, of course, equal pay. Many women coaches and
29:24
Speaker 2: referees are not getting paid what they're worth, not even close.
29:27
Speaker 2: There's also a persistent idea that there's more respect to
29:32
Speaker 2: be had coaching men's teams, which I found in some
29:36
Speaker 2: articles even when I was looking into this. There's a
29:40
Speaker 2: lack of standards and professionalization in these fields. There's unequal
29:47
Speaker 2: resources usually given towards women athletes and women coaches and
29:54
Speaker 2: women referees, all of that stuff. Nepotism and name recognition
29:59
Speaker 2: is a problem, like gatekeeping is a problem here, the
30:03
Speaker 2: risk of retaliation if you report something. There's been several
30:06
Speaker 2: cases of that of women coaches or referees reporting wrongdoing
30:10
Speaker 2: and being retaliated against, and often they might be told,
30:16
Speaker 2: you know, just deal.
30:17
Speaker 3: With it, right, so from Sage bubb quote. Among other inequities,
30:22
Speaker 3: women coaches have lower salaries, fewer opportunities, poorer working conditions
30:26
Speaker 3: and relationships, and more conflicts between coaching and family commitments
30:30
Speaker 3: than their male counterparts due to lack of organizational policies
30:34
Speaker 3: and cultural norms. The underrepresentation of women coaches is associated
30:39
Speaker 3: with power relations in sports, which is considered as a
30:41
Speaker 3: male dominated social context where men occupy dominant social roles
30:46
Speaker 3: over women. Hegemonic masculinity. Still, coaching is heavily associated with
30:51
Speaker 3: male characteristics, and women are considered invaders when holding positions
30:56
Speaker 3: of power.
30:57
Speaker 2: Yes, right, and as always, there are intersexual issues here
31:03
Speaker 2: to coaches of color, black coaches, queer coaches all have
31:07
Speaker 2: faced unique issues of backclash and discrimination. Marginalized people have
31:12
Speaker 2: increased obstacles to entry. You have to deal with a
31:15
Speaker 2: whole host of issues that many of their counterparts don't.
31:20
Speaker 2: There has been some recent stuff looking into this, but
31:22
Speaker 2: again a lot of this is pretty recent, and a
31:25
Speaker 2: lot of these first even in these specific intersexual areas,
31:29
Speaker 2: are very very recent, so a lot more to be done.
31:33
Speaker 2: And speaking of people are looking into this because all
31:37
Speaker 2: of this that we've been talking about as a negative
31:39
Speaker 2: impact on women's mental health, women in sport in general,
31:43
Speaker 2: I would say sport in general, just women's participation.
31:48
Speaker 1: So a couple things.
31:50
Speaker 2: That organizing bodies and people involved are looking into our
31:54
Speaker 2: new regulations, like creating minimum standards of women, marginalize folks
32:00
Speaker 2: in these positions, bringing more women to the table.
32:04
Speaker 1: When making these regulations in the first place.
32:07
Speaker 2: Because that has not happened really requiring marginalized people are
32:12
Speaker 2: interviewed for leadership positions. Some have reported organizations outright mocking
32:18
Speaker 2: or ignoring this though, so yep, organizations fostering mentoring and training.
32:26
Speaker 2: So we talked about this pretty recently, so it has
32:30
Speaker 2: been something that's been tried, but it's hard to.
32:34
Speaker 1: Track.
32:34
Speaker 2: It's hard to like quantify I guess the benefits of this,
32:39
Speaker 2: but many have said who have participated in it, that
32:42
Speaker 2: this helps women feel seen and heard and often allows
32:45
Speaker 2: for more open conversation, like maybe they will talk to
32:48
Speaker 2: a mentor who is a woman as opposed to a
32:51
Speaker 2: man because they don't feel like they can talk to
32:55
Speaker 2: men about something. Compiling more research, getting more research that
33:00
Speaker 2: we can have more educated regulations that we can put
33:05
Speaker 2: in place. And as yeah, as we've said recently, as
33:09
Speaker 2: more women athletes enter the playing fields, more of them
33:12
Speaker 2: become coaches and referees, and that continues.
33:15
Speaker 1: So that's good. We are seeing growth, but there's still
33:21
Speaker 1: all of these issues to deal with and there's still
33:24
Speaker 1: so much further to go, right.
33:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, way too much.
33:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, but to everyone who's doing that work, thank
33:33
Speaker 1: you so much. Honestly, Like.
33:37
Speaker 2: The power of a good coach and a good referee
33:40
Speaker 2: that can really stick with you, especially as a kid,
33:42
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, yes, like can really make you
33:46
Speaker 2: want to keep going, or even if it's not in
33:48
Speaker 2: the same sport, it can just be something that's really inspiring.
33:51
Speaker 2: So yes listeners. If you are involved in either coaching
33:56
Speaker 2: or refereeing, or sports in general, any of this, please
34:00
Speaker 2: let us know. You can write to us at Stephania
34:03
Speaker 2: Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on
34:05
Speaker 2: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and tiktog
34:07
Speaker 2: at stuff when Never Told You for us on YouTube.
34:10
Speaker 2: We have a tea Puppy store and we have a
34:11
Speaker 2: book you can get where we get your books. Thanks
34:13
Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya.
34:16
Speaker 1: And our contributor Joey. Thank you.
34:19
Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening. Steffan Never Told You is
34:21
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