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“Tweets and Reconciliation.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Jon Levitt. I'm Tommy Vitor.
0:24
Speaker 1: On today's pod, the fallout from last week's Trump-inspired attack
0:27
Speaker 1: on the U.S. Capitol. including new details about how close
0:30
Speaker 1: we came to catastrophe, the debate over a second impeachment,
0:33
Speaker 1: and the end of Trump's tweets forever. Then I'll talk
0:38
Speaker 1: to former Bernie Sanders campaign manager and Harry Reid senior advisor,
0:40
Speaker 1: Fad Shakir, about how Joe Biden can get a progressive
0:43
Speaker 1: agenda through a closely divided Senate. But first, love it.
0:48
Speaker 1: How was the show? Great love it or leave it.
0:50
Speaker 3: Jason Concepcion joins us to break down the week's news.
0:57
Speaker 2: I made some.
0:58
Speaker 3: Gay Jokes About Sports went very well. We talked about
1:02
Speaker 3: Deep Blue Sea starring Samuel L.
1:04
Speaker 2: Jackson.
1:04
Speaker 3: And then Zeynep Tufekci was back to talk about social
1:08
Speaker 3: media and incitement and the vaccine rollout. It was a
1:10
Speaker 3: good episode. And we did The Rant Whale.
1:12
Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, love The Rant Whale. Also, check out the
1:17
Speaker 1: series finale of Gaining Ground in New Georgia, where hosts
1:20
Speaker 1: Rembert Brown and Jewel Wicker will dive into how organizers
1:22
Speaker 1: pulled off one of the most incredible victories in political
1:25
Speaker 1: history last Tuesday. It's a fantastic listen and a much
1:28
Speaker 1: needed dose of good news. So check it out wherever
1:31
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. All right, let's get to the news.
1:35
Speaker 1: I think the more that we learn about last week's
1:38
Speaker 1: Trump-inspired attack on the Capitol that left five dead, the
1:42
Speaker 1: more terrifying and enraging it becomes.
1:44
Speaker 2: Disagree.
1:46
Speaker 1: Disagree. No, you think it's fine. Five days later, still
1:50
Speaker 1: haven't had a briefing from a single government agency about
1:53
Speaker 1: what happened. But we have had some outstanding reporting, including
1:57
Speaker 1: two big pieces in the Washington Post and the New
1:58
Speaker 1: York Times over the weekend. There's a lot we still
2:01
Speaker 1: don't know. But what's clear is that the attackers planned
2:04
Speaker 1: the insurrection online in public. It worried members of Congress,
2:08
Speaker 1: who were then assured by law enforcement that they'd be protected,
2:10
Speaker 1: which they weren't, because the 8,000 or so Trump supporters
2:14
Speaker 1: overran the 1,400 Capitol Police in about 15 minutes. They
2:18
Speaker 1: had long guns, pepper spray, fireworks, climbing gear, metal pipes,
2:22
Speaker 1: baseball bats, Molotov cocktails, pipe bombs, and zip ties. We
2:27
Speaker 1: know that they intended to injure, hold hostage, or assassinate
2:30
Speaker 1: elected officials, particularly Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence, in order
2:33
Speaker 1: to stop the certification of the election. And they were
2:36
Speaker 1: mere seconds away from entering a chamber full of senators,
2:39
Speaker 1: but were courageously diverted by Capitol Police Officer Eugene Goodman,
2:43
Speaker 1: who lured the mob in the other direction at great
2:45
Speaker 1: risk to his own safety. So all of this came
2:47
Speaker 1: after the President of the United States told his armed
2:49
Speaker 1: supporters to go, quote, show strength at the Capitol. And
2:52
Speaker 1: his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, urged them to engage in, quote,
2:55
Speaker 1: trial by combat. Sure enough, one of the attackers can
2:58
Speaker 1: be heard on video inside the Capitol saying, quote, our
3:01
Speaker 1: president wants us here. So Just want to ask to
3:05
Speaker 1: start off, like, have your views of what went down
3:08
Speaker 1: changed at all since Wednesday? And how have they?
3:11
Speaker 2: Love it.
3:13
Speaker 3: I think that what is when you read the accounts
3:15
Speaker 3: of what was taking place inside the Capitol, I think
3:17
Speaker 3: you we still haven't seen enough of the footage from
3:21
Speaker 3: inside the Capitol as it was unfolding. But in these accounts,
3:23
Speaker 3: particularly the one in The Times, you realize how close
3:26
Speaker 3: we were to seeing just dead members of Congress or
3:30
Speaker 3: hostage situations or the Capitol burning to the ground.
3:33
Speaker 2: And I wonder.
3:35
Speaker 3: how different this conversation would be if there were dead
3:37
Speaker 3: members of Congress right now, or if a whole part
3:40
Speaker 3: of the Senate had burned. And the fact that the
3:43
Speaker 3: only reason that didn't happen now seems to be because
3:45
Speaker 3: of luck is pretty chilling and should mean we should
3:49
Speaker 3: act as if it did happen because it very well
3:50
Speaker 3: could have happened.
3:51
Speaker 1: Tommy, what about you?
3:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, my instinct is to mock things
3:56
Speaker 2: that frighten me and make fun of them. And that
3:58
Speaker 2: was made easier by some of the initial photos that
4:00
Speaker 2: came out of like ridiculous looking people who were dressed
4:03
Speaker 2: like they were going to Burning Man. But that really
4:05
Speaker 2: did obscure the real risk. I mean, you mentioned some
4:08
Speaker 2: of the weapons these folks had. I mean, one guy
4:10
Speaker 2: had homemade napalm, right? I mean, these guys were minutes
4:14
Speaker 2: away from killing people. This was a mob of fascist
4:20
Speaker 2: domestic terrorists attacking the Capitol and they wanted to take
4:23
Speaker 2: out their enemies to help Trump. And so I think
4:25
Speaker 2: we need to be clear about that. We need to
4:27
Speaker 2: be clear about how the language used by Trump and
4:30
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani and like Louie Gohmert, other members of Congress
4:35
Speaker 2: incited these individuals. And what I guess I've been thinking
4:38
Speaker 2: about a lot since Wednesday is when sectarian violence starts
4:44
Speaker 2: or political violence starts, it can be very hard to
4:46
Speaker 2: stop it. It's hard to put the toothpaste back in
4:48
Speaker 2: the tube because you're already seeing a lot of these
4:51
Speaker 2: folks openly planning their next attack and they're excited about
4:54
Speaker 2: what they think they accomplished. And so I think we
4:56
Speaker 2: need some real accountability and we need it fast. We
4:59
Speaker 2: need a lot of people arrested. We need them tried, sentenced.
5:02
Speaker 2: The FBI needs to do a lot more to focus
5:06
Speaker 2: on the threat from these white supremacist groups, move that
5:09
Speaker 2: way up the agenda. And then I think everybody, especially Republicans,
5:12
Speaker 2: need to acknowledge that the language they're using, the lies
5:15
Speaker 2: that they are telling, that's part of the problem. It's
5:18
Speaker 2: part of a bigger story. And since day one, Trump
5:20
Speaker 2: has created this political dynamic where if you don't agree
5:24
Speaker 2: with everything he says, no matter how wrong, no matter
5:26
Speaker 2: how absurd, you're against him, you're his enemy. And the
5:30
Speaker 2: Republican Party, by and large, has gone in lockstep with
5:33
Speaker 2: this construct he created. And I think you can draw
5:36
Speaker 2: a direct line from that decision and the lies they
5:39
Speaker 2: agreed to tell with, and the weakness, frankly, that that
5:43
Speaker 2: shows with what happened. And we need to put an
5:46
Speaker 2: end to all of it. So it's been a scary,
5:48
Speaker 2: scary week.
5:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm most scared about the possibility that
5:55
Speaker 1: this wasn't the end of something, but the beginning. And
5:59
Speaker 1: it's not just what happened in the Capitol. You're seeing
6:01
Speaker 1: this happen in state capitals all over the country. There's
6:06
Speaker 1: plans to sort of occupy state capitals all over the country.
6:11
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned the FBI. There's an FBI bulletin
6:14
Speaker 1: out this morning that said they're planning, you know, around
6:17
Speaker 1: the inauguration between the 16th and the 20th. Um, more,
6:21
Speaker 1: they called them, the FBI called them armed protests. I
6:23
Speaker 1: think it's something a little different than that at this point, um, uh,
6:26
Speaker 1: around the Capitol, around the inauguration to disrupt the inauguration.
6:29
Speaker 1: So it's really scary. And it's also, it's happening out
6:31
Speaker 1: in the open, right? Like, and the attack was planned
6:35
Speaker 1: out in the open on a lot of these platforms,
6:36
Speaker 1: like storm the Capitol, the phrase storm, the Capitol was
6:40
Speaker 1: mentioned a hundred thousand times in the 30 days preceding
6:43
Speaker 1: January 6th, according to Zygna labs and media insights company. Um,
6:47
Speaker 1: So I guess the other question is like, what do
6:49
Speaker 1: we know so far about why the Capitol Police were
6:52
Speaker 1: so unprepared and why it took nearly three hours to
6:56
Speaker 1: get a National Guard deployment approved?
6:59
Speaker 2: Love it.
7:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, it seems like as with all
7:03
Speaker 3: things in the past four years, there is a mix
7:06
Speaker 3: of malevolence and incompetence. We are still learning about what
7:12
Speaker 3: the Trump administration did to prevent the National Guard from
7:16
Speaker 3: being deployed, what happened in the very important minutes and
7:20
Speaker 3: hours as the attack was unfolding before they could get
7:22
Speaker 3: the Guard deployed. It does also seem like there was
7:24
Speaker 3: just a lack of preparedness writ large that was not political,
7:28
Speaker 3: but actually just incompetence and the failure to properly imagine
7:33
Speaker 3: just how bad this could be. You know, there's a
7:37
Speaker 3: moment in the Times look at all of this where
7:45
Speaker 3: you have members of Congress, Jason Crow, who's a veteran,
7:50
Speaker 3: was talking about this, that members of Congress took off
7:53
Speaker 3: their pins and were led through the hall of the
7:56
Speaker 3: Capitol through an unidentified SWAT team. And as they're moving
7:59
Speaker 3: through the halls of the Congress, they're holding back rioters,
8:03
Speaker 3: they're finding paths to get to safety. And what you
8:05
Speaker 3: realize is in that moment, the fact that they had
8:09
Speaker 3: to take off their pins was because they did not
8:12
Speaker 3: believe that they could be protected and they were trying
8:15
Speaker 3: to find, that they might have to pretend they weren't
8:16
Speaker 3: members of Congress or they didn't want to be obvious
8:18
Speaker 3: members of Congress. And to me like that, that captured
8:22
Speaker 3: like the total lawlessness of the moment, that what happened
8:25
Speaker 3: once the siege was unfolding was entirely improvised, right? You
8:28
Speaker 3: have armed members of security details holding people back with
8:33
Speaker 3: guns on the House floor. You have improvised escape routes
8:36
Speaker 3: being planned in real time. You have desperate calls from
8:39
Speaker 3: Steny Hoyer from Slotnick of Michigan, from other members of Congress,
8:46
Speaker 3: completely outside of what the process should be just to
8:48
Speaker 3: try to get help from somewhere. So like there is
8:51
Speaker 3: a breakdown from top to bottom. It does seem like
8:53
Speaker 3: one important piece of this will be the inability of
8:56
Speaker 3: people inside the Trump administration to do things that would
8:59
Speaker 3: run counter to what Trump would want. And that I
9:00
Speaker 3: think is a big piece of this. But then you
9:02
Speaker 3: also have what looks like just a lack of preparedness
9:05
Speaker 3: from Sergeant of Arms, from the Capitol Police, the leadership,
9:08
Speaker 3: not the members, the leadership, and from the city of D.C.
9:12
Speaker 2: It's part of it.
9:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of this seems, I mean, one thing to
9:14
Speaker 1: understand is the duty to protect the Capitol and to
9:17
Speaker 1: protect members of Congress is sort of a patchwork of
9:19
Speaker 1: different agencies, right? And so you've got the Capitol Police
9:22
Speaker 1: just to protect all the Capitol building, and then you've
9:24
Speaker 1: got sort of the House Security Services, which is the
9:27
Speaker 1: House Sergeant of Arms, the Senate Security Services, which is
9:29
Speaker 1: the Senate Sergeant of Arms. The Senate Sergeant of Arms,
9:32
Speaker 1: House Sergeant of Arms, and the Capitol Police Chief have
9:35
Speaker 1: all resigned at this point. Capitol Police chief gave an
9:37
Speaker 1: interview to the Washington Post late last night, basically saying
9:41
Speaker 1: he asked the House and Senate sergeant at arms to
9:44
Speaker 1: beef up the forces, to beef up the protection in
9:46
Speaker 1: advance of this. And they refused. And part of the
9:49
Speaker 1: reason they didn't want National Guard troops is because they
9:50
Speaker 1: didn't want the, they didn't like the look of, uh,
9:54
Speaker 1: some people didn't like the look of what, and the, uh,
9:57
Speaker 1: apparently DOD said this too, the look of National Guard, uh,
10:00
Speaker 1: you know, protecting the Capitol, especially after what happened this
10:04
Speaker 1: summer when, when security services and security forces and police
10:08
Speaker 1: forces were deployed against peaceful protesters. I mean, it's, it's enraging.
10:15
Speaker 4: Yeah.
10:15
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that the, the look that they're
10:17
Speaker 2: talking about there was when they, uh, helps clear the
10:20
Speaker 2: way for Trump to walk to a church for a
10:22
Speaker 2: photo op. I mean, I agree that was not a
10:24
Speaker 2: great look, but we need hearings. We need hearings under
10:27
Speaker 2: oath before we know what really happened because a lot
10:29
Speaker 2: of people are pointing fingers. But the one thing I'm
10:32
Speaker 2: a little bit sympathetic to is this idea that they
10:35
Speaker 2: missed a lot of intelligence and plain sight because people
10:38
Speaker 2: post crazy or scary stuff online every day. But in
10:42
Speaker 2: this case, there were specific clear warnings about extremist groups
10:46
Speaker 2: in their planning. And those were just ignored and they
10:48
Speaker 2: were flagged for them. So we need to figure out
10:50
Speaker 2: why those were ignored. Trump did a ton of crowd
10:53
Speaker 2: building for the event. I think helped it explode in
10:55
Speaker 2: size right before it happened. And so the Capitol police
10:58
Speaker 2: just had nowhere near enough manpower to deal with the
11:01
Speaker 2: crowd this big. And look, there were some Capitol police
11:04
Speaker 2: officers you saw on video. responding and fighting like incredibly bravely.
11:08
Speaker 2: But candidly, like Capitol Police aren't, they're not SWAT team members.
11:12
Speaker 2: They're not US Secret Service, like CAT teams that are
11:15
Speaker 2: heavily armed and are like the, you know, former, you know,
11:18
Speaker 2: college football players, right? They're more like security guards, right?
11:22
Speaker 2: So they were outgunned and outmanned. And so the National
11:26
Speaker 2: Guard wasn't pre-positioned. And then when it was requested, seemingly
11:30
Speaker 2: that the Pentagon was slow to deploy them. So there's
11:33
Speaker 2: a lot going on here. They're like the failures are
11:37
Speaker 2: multilayered and just disastrous.
11:40
Speaker 1: Like you said, like there needs to be, you know,
11:43
Speaker 1: we get to get people under oath. There needs to
11:44
Speaker 1: be investigations because there's a lot of blame flying around
11:46
Speaker 1: and it's hard to sort of sort through all the
11:47
Speaker 1: bureaucratic morass here. The one piece of reporting that needs
11:51
Speaker 1: to be borne out here is the idea that Donald
11:55
Speaker 1: Trump himself delayed the National Guard, resisted deploying the National
12:01
Speaker 1: Guard and was in actually enjoying the images from the
12:05
Speaker 1: White House at first. Put those sources on the record.
12:08
Speaker 1: Put those sources on the record. I'm sick of reading
12:11
Speaker 1: multiple sources, tell CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post.
12:14
Speaker 2: Who was it? Was it like Matthew Pottinger, right? The
12:16
Speaker 2: national security guy who just resigned. Who was saying this?
12:20
Speaker 2: Who saw this? Who witnessed this? Put them on the record.
12:23
Speaker 3: And there was also some reporting that as it was unfolding,
12:26
Speaker 3: that like the order to send them was happening outside
12:29
Speaker 3: of the chain of command, that it might've been through Pence,
12:31
Speaker 3: that it might've been through the army directly. And like,
12:33
Speaker 3: those things are all, those are like, you know, if
12:37
Speaker 3: the deployment saves lives, but has done it against what
12:41
Speaker 3: the president wishes because it's an emergency, like that raises
12:44
Speaker 3: a whole host of questions. The other piece of this
12:47
Speaker 3: too is like, I've seen some, there's already this push
12:49
Speaker 3: of like, oh, what laws do we need to change?
12:51
Speaker 2: Like, where do we need to beef up?
12:52
Speaker 3: And man, like, We spend decades building a national security
12:55
Speaker 3: apparatus to protect buildings and institutions around DC, but they
13:00
Speaker 3: don't work if they're not employed. They don't work if
13:02
Speaker 3: the people in charge don't recognize the threat. And the
13:04
Speaker 3: idea that like, I hope that we spend the time
13:07
Speaker 3: investigating how much went wrong because procedures were inadequate, because
13:11
Speaker 3: policies were inadequate, and how much of it was just
13:14
Speaker 3: a lack of imagination, a lack of preparedness in the
13:17
Speaker 3: moment that doesn't require making DC even more of a
13:20
Speaker 3: police state than it's already become since 9-11.
13:22
Speaker 2: Someone tell me what authorities you don't think that these
13:26
Speaker 2: law enforcement has. What specifically are people referencing when they
13:30
Speaker 2: say they need to pass new laws? Is it to
13:32
Speaker 2: deal with the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers? Is it
13:35
Speaker 2: about DC itself? It's like jumping to action like that
13:39
Speaker 2: seems very dangerous.
13:40
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's not as though we lack the power
13:43
Speaker 3: or to clear the Capitol, to protect the Capitol, because
13:47
Speaker 3: it showed up. It just showed up really fucking late.
13:50
Speaker 1: And again, we do protect the Capitol once a year,
13:53
Speaker 1: every year around the state of the union. And it's
13:56
Speaker 1: guarded like, you know, a fortress. All right. So let's
14:01
Speaker 1: talk about holding those responsible for this attack accountable, starting
14:04
Speaker 1: with the President of the United States. On Sunday, Nancy
14:06
Speaker 1: Pelosi announced that the House will vote today on a
14:09
Speaker 1: resolution calling on Vice President Pence and the I believe
14:13
Speaker 1: they tried to UC that, pass it by unanimous consent. Obviously,
14:17
Speaker 1: a Republican objected because they're Republicans, so now they'll vote
14:20
Speaker 1: on it. If they refuse, if Pence refuses and the
14:24
Speaker 1: cabinet refuses, as they most likely will, Pelosi said that
14:28
Speaker 1: the House will vote midweek to impeach Donald Trump for
14:30
Speaker 1: the second time. The resolution, which has already been signed
14:33
Speaker 1: by 210 Democrats, would need just eight more votes to pass,
14:37
Speaker 1: and Democrats say they have those votes. The resolution reads
14:40
Speaker 1: as follows, quote, Donald John Trump engaged in high crimes
14:44
Speaker 1: and misdemeanors by willfully inciting violence against the government of
14:47
Speaker 1: the United States. So you still need at least 17
14:50
Speaker 1: Republican senators to convict and remove Trump. And Mitch McConnell
14:54
Speaker 1: has said that the earliest he'd begin a trial is
14:56
Speaker 1: January 19th, which is the day before Trump is scheduled
14:59
Speaker 1: to leave for office. He said that because in order
15:02
Speaker 1: to bring the Senate back, you'd need unanimous consent, which
15:05
Speaker 1: is all 100 senators, which, of course, you wouldn't get.
15:09
Speaker 1: So knowing all this, Tommy, is impeachment the right move here?
15:12
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's the only move. You know,
15:15
Speaker 2: the president of the United States incited an armed attack
15:17
Speaker 2: on the Capitol. If you don't impeach him, then when
15:20
Speaker 2: do you do it? And like, again, I can't get
15:22
Speaker 2: over the reporting from aides who say he was pleased
15:26
Speaker 2: with what he was watching, right? I mean, he is dangerous.
15:29
Speaker 2: And these groups, these terrorists, these domestic terrorists are planning
15:32
Speaker 2: more attacks on federal and local governments, right? And I
15:36
Speaker 2: don't think we took seriously enough The kidnapping attempt on
15:41
Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. And we're not going
15:45
Speaker 2: to get another warning. That should have been our warning
15:48
Speaker 2: to prevent this fascist attack on the Capitol. And so
15:53
Speaker 2: I don't know how the politics are going to go.
15:54
Speaker 2: If the Republican Party was smart, they would see this
15:57
Speaker 2: as a gift to them. They can impeach him. They
16:00
Speaker 2: can remove Trump and they can prevent Trump from running
16:02
Speaker 2: again for federal office. It could be the greatest thing
16:05
Speaker 2: to ever happen to them to get out of jail,
16:07
Speaker 2: free card, get rid of this guy for fucking ever. Just,
16:10
Speaker 2: I think they have to do it. And look, I'm,
16:12
Speaker 2: I understand all the downsides. I'm worried about the Biden agenda.
16:15
Speaker 2: I'm worried about Republicans, uh, never, ever doing the right thing,
16:19
Speaker 2: but I just think what other choice do you have here?
16:21
Speaker 1: Love it. What do you think?
16:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I, A lot has changed in the week
16:29
Speaker 3: since we last recorded. I think that the political implications are,
16:36
Speaker 3: I think, completely unclear. We don't have an election for
16:39
Speaker 3: two years. So does this make us safer as a
16:42
Speaker 3: country to send the impeachment to the Senate? I think
16:46
Speaker 3: the answer is yes. I think one of the great
16:49
Speaker 3: tricks Trump has pulled over the last four years is
16:51
Speaker 3: convincing mostly Republicans who have told it to not just us,
16:54
Speaker 3: but to themselves that Trump doesn't respond to incentives, that
16:57
Speaker 3: he's just a kind of, you know, Trump will be Trump.
16:59
Speaker 3: But actually, time and time again, political incentives, pressure, consequences
17:05
Speaker 3: are the only things he cares about.
17:06
Speaker 2: He's a solipsist.
17:06
Speaker 3: He's a narcissist. He doesn't have any value.
17:08
Speaker 2: So the only thing that's.
17:08
Speaker 3: Ever mattered is pressure. And so the idea of an
17:15
Speaker 3: impeachment hanging over Trump over the next 10 days, to me,
17:19
Speaker 3: I think does have value and does... I think at
17:25
Speaker 3: the very least force Republicans to confront what they've participated
17:29
Speaker 3: in and doesn't allow them off the hook with easy statements.
17:32
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I just like, I don't know
17:34
Speaker 3: what other choice do you have? I think the only
17:36
Speaker 3: people being honest about Donald Trump are the insurrectionists in
17:39
Speaker 3: the Capitol and Democrats who want to impeach. Those are
17:42
Speaker 3: the people being honest about Donald Trump. Those are the
17:44
Speaker 3: people taking him seriously. And I think we should be
17:45
Speaker 3: taking him seriously, as seriously as those insurrectionists. The only
17:48
Speaker 3: people who aren't taking him seriously are the Hawleys and
17:51
Speaker 3: Cruces and McCarthy's and Stephanics and Zeldins of the world
17:58
Speaker 3: who want to foment insurrection and not be held responsible
18:01
Speaker 3: for it, who want the benefits of Trump's fascistic movement
18:07
Speaker 3: without the cost. And I think we should not pretend
18:11
Speaker 3: that this is on the level. We should just do
18:13
Speaker 3: the honest thing.
18:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I don't have, I don't think there's any
18:20
Speaker 1: greater chance that Republicans convict him today than they would
18:25
Speaker 1: have a week ago. I don't think you'll find the
18:29
Speaker 1: 17 senators, but I don't think we have an option
18:32
Speaker 1: to impeach. I think that is what, like you said, Tommy,
18:34
Speaker 1: that is what impeachment is for. And I think we
18:37
Speaker 1: have to try and I think we have to throw
18:38
Speaker 1: it in their laps and they can decide that they
18:40
Speaker 1: wanted to protect Donald Trump after he incited attack on
18:43
Speaker 1: the Capitol. And if it's the decision that they want
18:44
Speaker 1: to make, then Republicans can make that decision. I also
18:47
Speaker 1: think like the politics, look, this is binary. Either you
18:49
Speaker 1: impeach him or you don't. If you don't impeach him, like,
18:52
Speaker 1: We have like Lisa Murkowski, Pat Toomey, Ben Sasse, Mitt
18:55
Speaker 1: Romney are all out there saying he should resign. You
18:58
Speaker 1: got Chris Christie, who was just fucking prepping the guy
19:01
Speaker 1: for the last presidential debate, saying he'd vote to impeach him.
19:04
Speaker 1: Mick Mulvaney, what former chief of staff is saying he'd
19:07
Speaker 1: vote to impeach him. Adam Kitzinger, Republican in the House,
19:10
Speaker 1: saying he'd vote to impeach him. You can't have all
19:12
Speaker 1: these Republicans saying that they'd vote to impeach him or
19:15
Speaker 1: that he should resign. And then as a Democrat, you
19:18
Speaker 1: just fucking take a pass on it. It's just not
19:21
Speaker 1: an option.
19:22
Speaker 2: The counter argument, I guess, just to make it is
19:24
Speaker 2: that it will take weeks. It will delay Biden from
19:28
Speaker 2: getting his cabinet nominees confirmed. It will delay... putting on
19:32
Speaker 2: the floor $ 2, 000 checks for COVID relief and relief to
19:35
Speaker 2: states to help them deal with the vaccine distribution and
19:40
Speaker 2: just lots of other parts of the Biden agenda. It
19:42
Speaker 2: might be a thing that Republicans rally around politically, and
19:46
Speaker 2: suddenly it helps them get back on Trump's team. I mean,
19:48
Speaker 2: those are words worthwhile counter arguments to hear. I still
19:52
Speaker 2: land in the place of like, you got to impeach
19:54
Speaker 2: this guy.
19:56
Speaker 3: So I understand why McConnell, who is, you know, down
19:59
Speaker 3: to very few cards in his hand, just staring at it.
20:03
Speaker 3: They're just, he keeps losing good cards, but is saying, oh,
20:07
Speaker 3: if you do this, I will begin impeachment after Biden
20:10
Speaker 3: takes office and that will screw Biden. But it's not
20:13
Speaker 3: actually clear if that's, that's a choice, right? That's going
20:15
Speaker 3: to be a choice in the Senate. And by the way,
20:19
Speaker 3: it's not McConnell's choice. Not his choice anymore. So it's
20:23
Speaker 3: not clear to me that Democrats can't move forward uh, uh,
20:27
Speaker 3: with nominations or with, with legislation around the impeachment? Because,
20:31
Speaker 3: I mean, that was one of the, that was one
20:33
Speaker 3: of the, um, the arguments we made the last time
20:36
Speaker 3: we impeached Donald Trump. Yeah.
20:37
Speaker 2: It's just like a four time thing. I don't really know.
20:39
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
20:40
Speaker 1: I want to take both of the arguments that Tommy
20:42
Speaker 1: raised separately because I think they both have different responses.
20:46
Speaker 1: The first is what you were just saying, love it. And,
20:47
Speaker 1: and Jim Clyburn over the weekend, uh, said that Democrats
20:50
Speaker 1: might wait until after Biden's first hundred days to send
20:53
Speaker 1: the articles of impeachment over to the Senate, which would
20:55
Speaker 1: give Biden the time to tackle his agenda before a trial,
20:58
Speaker 1: which could take quite a long time. Sammy Hoyer, the
21:00
Speaker 1: number two Democrat today, said he wants them sent immediately.
21:03
Speaker 1: So obviously there's always fantastic coordination among the top three
21:06
Speaker 1: Democrats in the House, just legendary message coordination with those three.
21:10
Speaker 1: But anyway, I was looking at what you could do
21:13
Speaker 1: for a schedule. This is one article of impeachment today.
21:17
Speaker 1: You could bring the case extremely fast once you send
21:20
Speaker 1: the articles over. You could do it in a week, right?
21:23
Speaker 1: And so now let's say some of these appointments are
21:26
Speaker 1: really important to confirm. You could actually maybe take a
21:29
Speaker 1: week to confirm Tony, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense,
21:32
Speaker 1: a couple of the big ones, and then do the
21:35
Speaker 1: trial that could last a week. I think it's been
21:39
Speaker 1: over-exaggerated how long and drawn out an impeachment would take.
21:42
Speaker 1: I think you could do it relatively quickly. On the
21:45
Speaker 1: second part, which is, you know, it could rally the
21:48
Speaker 1: Republican base. This is sort of the argument that a
21:51
Speaker 1: lot of Republicans are making. A group of House Republicans
21:54
Speaker 1: who actually did the bare minimum right thing and voted
21:57
Speaker 1: to certify Biden's win wrote a letter to Biden urging
22:00
Speaker 1: him to persuade Pelosi to drop impeachment in the name
22:02
Speaker 1: of unity and healing. And also said so that Trump
22:06
Speaker 1: supporters don't become angrier and more violent. Like, I don't
22:10
Speaker 1: know what you guys think.
22:11
Speaker 2: Look what you made us do.
22:12
Speaker 4: Well, that.
22:14
Speaker 1: Look, of course, I don't think we can make any
22:17
Speaker 1: decisions based on what it's going to do to the
22:20
Speaker 1: Trump base. The Trump base is pretty fucking angry and
22:24
Speaker 1: a good portion of them now are pretty fucking violent.
22:27
Speaker 1: And we saw that. And if you don't impeach them,
22:29
Speaker 1: they're going to be violent. And if you do impeach them,
22:31
Speaker 1: they're going to be violent. And if you don't impeach them,
22:32
Speaker 1: they're going to be angry. And if you do, they're
22:33
Speaker 1: going to be angry. And I don't think– if this
22:37
Speaker 1: were foreign terrorists, if this was after 9-11 and they said,
22:42
Speaker 1: if you strike back at us, we'll hit America even harder,
22:46
Speaker 1: would that stop us from striking back?
22:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, I find that an imperfect comparison, but I still
22:52
Speaker 5: think– It's an imperfect– but I'm saying– But the idea
22:58
Speaker 5: that someone's going to commit more violence and so we're
23:02
Speaker 5: not going to hold them accountable because they're going to
23:03
Speaker 5: commit more violence?
23:05
Speaker 2: I think it's weak and pathetic. And the way that
23:07
Speaker 2: Republicans could get through that concern is by telling the
23:11
Speaker 2: truth to their base. by letting them know that the
23:14
Speaker 2: election wasn't stolen, that Donald Trump lost, that votes have
23:17
Speaker 2: been counted fairly, that the steal is not occurring, and
23:21
Speaker 2: nor does it need to be stopped. That is the
23:23
Speaker 2: way through that, but that requires a tiny bit of
23:26
Speaker 2: political courage and the knowledge that Don Jr. might come
23:29
Speaker 2: to your backyard and campaign for your primary opponent. At
23:33
Speaker 2: some point, the Republican Party has to decide that they
23:36
Speaker 2: don't give a fuck. Otherwise, they are the party of
23:39
Speaker 2: Trump through 2024.
23:41
Speaker 1: We, yeah, we just, I just, we cannot let ourselves
23:43
Speaker 1: be held hostage to domestic terrorism like this. We can't,
23:47
Speaker 1: you know, we can't, we can't not act because we're
23:50
Speaker 1: afraid we're going to live in constant fear that any
23:53
Speaker 1: political move that's made is going to enrage and inflame
23:57
Speaker 1: a base of people who've become violent. Yeah.
24:00
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I was thinking about this, right? This,
24:02
Speaker 3: like these calls to unity and it's, you know, it's a,
24:05
Speaker 3: it's obviously not being made in good faith. As many
24:08
Speaker 3: have pointed out, like, was unity your goal? when you
24:11
Speaker 3: voted to overturn the election, right?
24:15
Speaker 1: After.
24:15
Speaker 2: After the siege.
24:17
Speaker 4: After the siege.
24:18
Speaker 3: But after 9-11, unity was defined as embrace our worldview.
24:26
Speaker 3: We want unity, embrace our worldview. And it feels like
24:30
Speaker 3: after the siege at the Capitol, unity is being defined
24:33
Speaker 3: as ignore our worldview. Just pretend what happened didn't happen.
24:37
Speaker 3: And you know, to tell me like, yeah, like, oh,
24:39
Speaker 3: this base is inflamed.
24:41
Speaker 2: This base is angry.
24:42
Speaker 3: This base has violent elements that we saw on full display.
24:45
Speaker 3: It's been fomented by Trump and McCarthy and Hawley and Cruz. Like,
24:49
Speaker 3: but what is the way out of it?
24:50
Speaker 4: Right.
24:50
Speaker 3: And it's like when people talk about unity, like what
24:53
Speaker 3: do they mean? They mean elections aren't viewed as existential,
24:56
Speaker 3: that we argue from a shared set of facts, that
24:59
Speaker 3: we treat each other in good faith and respect each
25:02
Speaker 3: other as, you know, with intellectual honesty. And we don't
25:04
Speaker 3: attempt to burn the Capitol to the ground.
25:06
Speaker 4: Right.
25:06
Speaker 3: I think that's like a fair fair number of things
25:08
Speaker 3: that you would want in unity. If it has any
25:11
Speaker 3: meaning in our politics, it means some version of that.
25:13
Speaker 2: How do you get there?
25:14
Speaker 3: Well, you'll never get there if you basically allow a
25:19
Speaker 3: huge swath of the country to be completely outside of
25:25
Speaker 3: honest debate about you know, on a set of facts about,
25:28
Speaker 3: you know, the reality of our situation. No, you have
25:29
Speaker 3: to be honest.
25:30
Speaker 2: You have to start.
25:31
Speaker 3: It may, it is divisive, right? Impeachment is divisive. Why
25:33
Speaker 3: is it divisive? Because right now the truth is divisive.
25:36
Speaker 3: And how do you change that? Well, you change it
25:37
Speaker 3: slowly by being honest over time and being as honest
25:40
Speaker 3: as you can, uh, and, and hoping that over time
25:44
Speaker 3: the truth becomes less divisive.
25:45
Speaker 2: That's the only way.
25:46
Speaker 1: The, Overturning the election is divisive. Yeah, pretty divisive. Like
25:51
Speaker 1: asking Joe Biden all and they're all, you know, Joe
25:54
Speaker 1: Biden's their target because Joe Biden campaigned on unity and healing.
25:58
Speaker 6: Right.
25:58
Speaker 1: So they all run to Joe Biden to say, oh,
26:01
Speaker 1: stop Nancy Pelosi from this impeachment, you know, but like.
26:05
Speaker 1: Why do they keep asking us to somehow work to
26:09
Speaker 1: forge unity? What has a single Republican done to bring
26:13
Speaker 1: about unity since this attack or since this election?
26:17
Speaker 2: Because they are the party of victimhood. They are the
26:20
Speaker 2: party of grievance. They always have to be under assault,
26:23
Speaker 2: whether it's from social media or Joe Biden or anything else.
26:27
Speaker 2: And so that's their safe space. That's where they end up.
26:32
Speaker 2: And so, like, I think you've got to fight through
26:33
Speaker 2: that and call it out for being nonsense. And hopefully
26:36
Speaker 2: the media will help here since they witness what happened.
26:38
Speaker 2: But also the idea that you could punt this conversation
26:42
Speaker 2: a hundred days and say, hey, America, remember that horrific
26:45
Speaker 2: trauma we all experienced three months ago? Time to dredge
26:49
Speaker 2: it back up like that. That to me is the
26:50
Speaker 2: worst of all worlds. I don't know what that does
26:52
Speaker 2: for you.
26:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, this isn't Tenet. You can't delay its release, you know,
26:56
Speaker 3: and hope it finds an audience.
26:58
Speaker 1: Our, like, very short memories is also one of the
27:01
Speaker 1: best arguments for impeachment and impeachment with the additional vote
27:05
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump can never hold office again. Because there's
27:07
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and some Republicans too, like, he's done.
27:11
Speaker 1: Just get him out of office. We'll never have to
27:13
Speaker 1: think about him again.
27:14
Speaker 4: No, no.
27:15
Speaker 1: That's what we're saying now. A year from now, when he's,
27:18
Speaker 1: you know, running around campaigning again to run another race
27:23
Speaker 1: in 2024, everyone's going to be like, oh. Well, what
27:25
Speaker 1: did he do that cap? Whatever. You know, like this
27:28
Speaker 1: is what happens all the time. Memories are fucking short.
27:30
Speaker 2: Imagine the bounce back profiles. Find it is stride in Iowa.
27:33
Speaker 2: Donald Trump today, blah, blah, blah.
27:35
Speaker 3: At an event endorsing Marjorie Greene for minority leader, Donald Trump,
27:39
Speaker 3: et cetera.
27:40
Speaker 1: He needs, that's what he needs to be banned from
27:43
Speaker 1: ever holding office again. That is the way to do it.
27:46
Speaker 1: My message to all.
27:46
Speaker 2: Republicans is Donald Trump said that the Iowa election results
27:51
Speaker 2: were rigged in 2016, right? He accused Ted Cruz of cheating.
27:54
Speaker 2: He did it again about the popular vote in 2016,
27:56
Speaker 2: and then he did it again in 2020. This train
27:59
Speaker 2: is coming for you guys, right? Like if he doesn't
28:02
Speaker 2: win in 2024, it's going to be rigged again. This
28:05
Speaker 2: mob is coming after you, all your primary opponents, all
28:08
Speaker 2: you elected officials, like you deal with it now or
28:10
Speaker 2: you deal with it later. You know, I look, I
28:12
Speaker 2: do things to screw over future me all the time,
28:15
Speaker 2: but those aren't wise decisions. Like deal with it now.
28:18
Speaker 4: Yeah.
28:19
Speaker 1: I don't think they're, they don't, these people have not,
28:21
Speaker 1: long-term thinking has not been the.
28:23
Speaker 2: Hallmark of their strategy. I'm talking about, you know, dinner
28:25
Speaker 2: plans with people I don't like. So again, an imperfect comparison,
28:28
Speaker 2: but you know, you get me.
28:30
Speaker 3: The, yeah, it's, it is a sad, it may be necessary,
28:36
Speaker 3: but it is quite a sad statement that we generally
28:38
Speaker 3: view the only way to stop Donald Trump from sucking
28:41
Speaker 3: the fucking life force out of our politics in the
28:43
Speaker 3: next Republican primary is from permanently banning him from seeking office.
28:46
Speaker 3: It is quite a sad statement of the state of politics.
28:50
Speaker 3: He continues to be a formidable force. But even those
28:53
Speaker 3: who say that he isn't, we are at least three
28:56
Speaker 3: years away from voters in Republican primaries proving that. So
29:00
Speaker 3: even if someone else emerges, even if there is a
29:02
Speaker 3: hope that he is no longer the leader of the
29:04
Speaker 3: Republican Party, we are years away from having that confirmed.
29:07
Speaker 2: Years away.
29:08
Speaker 3: They want to live like this for years? Just call
29:10
Speaker 3: them the House, the Senate, and the presidency.
29:20
Speaker 1: So, you know, after Trump, the next question is what
29:23
Speaker 1: to do about his accomplices, namely the 147 Republican House
29:28
Speaker 1: members and eight Republican senators who voted to block certification
29:31
Speaker 1: of the election just hours after a violent mob tried
29:34
Speaker 1: to do the same thing by force. This group includes
29:38
Speaker 1: Senators Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz. and the number one
29:42
Speaker 1: and two House Republican leaders, Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise.
29:47
Speaker 1: So Cruz and Hawley are already facing calls to resign
29:49
Speaker 1: or to be expelled, which would require a two-thirds vote
29:51
Speaker 1: of the House and the Senate, which is a steep
29:53
Speaker 1: climb to get that many Republican votes, much like impeachment
29:56
Speaker 1: and conviction in the Senate.
29:58
Speaker 2: Um, what, what if like a hundred senators are just like, yeah,
30:01
Speaker 2: boot Ted Cruz.
30:03
Speaker 4: Yeah.
30:03
Speaker 2: We're in like unity, unity caucus.
30:05
Speaker 6: Yeah.
30:06
Speaker 1: That would be funny. Just, just Ted Cruz and Josh. Um,
30:09
Speaker 1: what are some of the other ways these assholes are
30:11
Speaker 1: being held accountable?
30:12
Speaker 2: I mean, look, these guys, like in some ways, these
30:15
Speaker 2: guys drive me the most crazy, like the cruises and
30:17
Speaker 2: the Hollies, because they know Trump lost the election. They
30:19
Speaker 2: know they're lying and they're just doing it because they
30:21
Speaker 2: want to run for president. And so I love that
30:24
Speaker 2: everyone's calling on them to be expelled. I'd love to
30:26
Speaker 2: see it happen like you, John. I'm skeptical. But I
30:29
Speaker 2: do think it helps that like big Republican political donors,
30:33
Speaker 2: mentors for each of them are calling them out. They're
30:35
Speaker 2: doing so publicly. Their editorial boards in their states are
30:39
Speaker 2: calling on them to resign. You know, Trump has seemingly
30:44
Speaker 2: been immune to some of these political forces. I don't
30:48
Speaker 2: think that's true for Ted Cruz. I don't think that's
30:50
Speaker 2: true for Josh Hawley. I think you should treat them
30:52
Speaker 2: like pariahs. Maybe long term, they will be able to
30:57
Speaker 2: suck up to the MAGA base enough and win the
31:01
Speaker 2: 2024 nomination if Trump doesn't run again. Consider me a
31:05
Speaker 2: little skeptical because at a minimum, that support is going
31:07
Speaker 2: to be split between the Pompeos, the Tom Cottons, the
31:11
Speaker 2: Don Juniors of the world. But we'll see. But I
31:14
Speaker 2: do think that this is a thing that can't be
31:17
Speaker 2: memory hold. I wouldn't be co-sponsoring a bunch of bills
31:20
Speaker 2: with Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz going forward. I would
31:23
Speaker 2: treat them like pariah.
31:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's very important. I think
31:28
Speaker 3: what's been clarifying in the last week is, I think
31:32
Speaker 3: for a long time, the prestige of elective office has
31:36
Speaker 3: been used to wash off the stink of the anti-democratic, fascistic,
31:40
Speaker 3: intellectually dishonest, right-wing shit coming out of Republican leaders. And
31:46
Speaker 3: I think for the first time, the stink is kind
31:48
Speaker 3: of washing off the prestige. We see major corporations saying,
31:52
Speaker 3: we won't donate to these people, even though it has
31:54
Speaker 3: been our practice to donate to both sides. I think
31:56
Speaker 3: that's really important. Coming for their money is really important.
31:58
Speaker 3: And not letting corporations off the hook who simply say, oh,
32:01
Speaker 3: we donate to leaders of both parties.
32:03
Speaker 4: Obviously, it's all a fucking.
32:05
Speaker 3: you know, nesting doll of shit, like that we live
32:07
Speaker 3: in that, that that's so important that like corporations just
32:10
Speaker 3: flooding with their packs and their donations to both sides
32:13
Speaker 3: is how, uh, these politicians, uh, get and stay elected
32:16
Speaker 3: is obviously very sad, but I think that that's important. Um,
32:19
Speaker 3: the other thing I saw, uh, there is an effort
32:22
Speaker 3: among Democrats in the house to not work with Republicans
32:26
Speaker 3: who voted after the siege. And I think that that's
32:29
Speaker 3: really important. I remember, you know, when I worked for
32:31
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton in the Senate, um, You know, she was
32:34
Speaker 3: very proud that she had sponsored bills with virtually every Republican,
32:37
Speaker 3: but the one she wouldn't do it with was with
32:39
Speaker 3: Saxby Chambliss because he ran one of the most despicable
32:41
Speaker 3: campaigns against Max Cleland that anyone had ever seen. And
32:44
Speaker 3: it was a point of moral pride to not work
32:47
Speaker 3: with somebody who would be willing to do that. And
32:48
Speaker 3: I think making sure that what these people did has
32:51
Speaker 3: consequences in every way possible is, I think, really important
32:55
Speaker 3: because I agree. I think expulsion is very, very difficult
33:00
Speaker 3: and not really possible.
33:02
Speaker 1: Well, it's difficult in any circumstance and difficult in the Senate.
33:07
Speaker 1: In the House, it would basically get rid of most
33:09
Speaker 1: Republicans in the House. I mean, this is what's truly scary.
33:12
Speaker 1: There's a lot of attention rightly focused on Josh Hawley
33:15
Speaker 1: and Ted Cruz and a few of the other senators
33:18
Speaker 1: are sort of like. new member, you know, wingnuts. Although,
33:22
Speaker 1: do you know Rick Scott was one of them? So
33:24
Speaker 1: there originally was six senators because that was who objected
33:27
Speaker 1: to the Arizona one. But then there was the late
33:29
Speaker 1: night objection by Holly to Pennsylvania, which also brought in
33:32
Speaker 1: Cynthia Loomis of Wyoming. And Rick Scott, who's the head
33:36
Speaker 1: of the National Republican Senate Campaign Committee. Yeah, they also
33:39
Speaker 1: just decided that he was going to vote objection to.
33:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they also just reelected Ronna Romney to head
33:43
Speaker 2: the RNC, even though she's been like the chief propagandist
33:46
Speaker 2: of the Stop the Steal lies. So yeah, they've learned
33:48
Speaker 2: no lessons.
33:50
Speaker 1: But in the House, like, Kevin McCarthy, there's a very
33:53
Speaker 1: good chance that man could become the next Speaker of
33:55
Speaker 1: the House. And he objected after the attack. After the
34:00
Speaker 1: attack just drives me insane. Everyone who objected before the attack, awful,
34:04
Speaker 1: of course. But the idea that you could be the
34:07
Speaker 1: target of that attack, go through that, walk back into
34:11
Speaker 1: that chamber after everything that just happened, and basically finish
34:14
Speaker 1: the job that the mob wanted to do by force,
34:17
Speaker 1: try to block the certification of the election, is unconscionable.
34:22
Speaker 2: I think that the problem, obviously, in the House is
34:24
Speaker 2: that's where you see the fruits of gerrymandering, really. flowering
34:29
Speaker 2: and growing. The worst, craziest people in politics are in
34:33
Speaker 2: the House in districts that they will never, ever lose
34:36
Speaker 2: unless they cross Donald Trump. So that's why I'm especially
34:39
Speaker 2: hard on people like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and
34:41
Speaker 2: Rick Scott because they're statewide elected officials. They're more powerful.
34:45
Speaker 2: They should know better because they're educated, relatively intelligent people.
34:49
Speaker 2: I think some of these House members, you have to
34:50
Speaker 2: wonder how much of this stuff they genuinely believe because
34:54
Speaker 2: they are kind of Not altogether there, but yeah, it's ugly.
34:59
Speaker 3: I mean, Kevin McCarthy knows better.
35:00
Speaker 1: He does know better.
35:01
Speaker 3: He knows better.
35:01
Speaker 1: Of course he knows better.
35:02
Speaker 2: He's a coward.
35:02
Speaker 3: He knows better. But he is in a bright red district.
35:06
Speaker 3: He wins by, you know, 66%, 67% of the vote.
35:10
Speaker 3: He's more worried about a primary. And he has shown
35:13
Speaker 3: himself to be a completely valueless weasel. He was, you know,
35:17
Speaker 3: Paul Ryan without the policy chops.
35:19
Speaker 1: I would go down the list of all the House members,
35:21
Speaker 1: the Republican House members who voted in like our five,
35:24
Speaker 1: our plus five districts or less and start targeting that
35:27
Speaker 1: in 2022 for defeat. Like Mike Garcia, who just beat
35:30
Speaker 1: Christy Smith here in California 25th. like he voted to object.
35:34
Speaker 1: That guy's in a district that's almost democratic. There's no
35:38
Speaker 1: way he can survive something like that.
35:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, Elise Stefanik. She decided to go full MAGA during
35:42
Speaker 2: impeachment and just rake in a bunch of, you know,
35:45
Speaker 2: Republican Trump donor money. And now she has decided that
35:49
Speaker 2: that's her path going forward in perpetuity in Republican politics.
35:52
Speaker 2: And it's very sad.
35:54
Speaker 1: So one of the biggest consequences for Trump's actions on
35:56
Speaker 1: January 6th came Friday afternoon when the president's personal Twitter
35:59
Speaker 1: account was permanently suspended. due to the risk of further
36:03
Speaker 1: incitement of violence.
36:04
Speaker 2: We got him, guys.
36:05
Speaker 3: We got him.
36:08
Speaker 1: Never again will we say, did you see that Trump tweet?
36:11
Speaker 3: I have to say, though, not waking up to a
36:14
Speaker 3: dozen of them has been nice.
36:17
Speaker 2: It's been nice.
36:18
Speaker 6: Yeah.
36:19
Speaker 1: No, it's, I mean, you know, deplatforming works. He's also
36:22
Speaker 1: been banned or restricted from nearly every other social media platform,
36:26
Speaker 1: including Facebook, Snapchat, Twitch, Instagram, Pinterest.
36:29
Speaker 2: Pinterest. What was he doing?
36:31
Speaker 1: What was the thread on Pinterest? Shopify. Even Stripe has
36:35
Speaker 1: stopped processing his campaign donations. Over the weekend, Apple and
36:39
Speaker 1: Google announced they were removing Parler from their app stores,
36:41
Speaker 1: a right-wing, unmoderated alternative to Twitter, where much of the
36:44
Speaker 1: capital attack was planned out in the open. Amazon dealt
36:47
Speaker 1: Parler the final blow and the company kicked it off
36:49
Speaker 1: its web hosting service altogether. So people have been calling
36:54
Speaker 1: for the company, for Twitter to ban Trump for years.
36:58
Speaker 1: He's had much worse tweets than the two they finally
37:00
Speaker 1: banned him for. One was, you know, my supporters' voices
37:05
Speaker 1: are important, blah, blah, blah, 74 million people. And then
37:08
Speaker 1: one was, I'm not coming to the inauguration on the 20th. Yeah. Which, oh,
37:13
Speaker 1: by the way, I haven't heard any Republicans say that
37:16
Speaker 1: he should go to the inaugural for unity's sake.
37:18
Speaker 2: That's really unity, yeah.
37:19
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anyone criticize him for that. Anyway, so
37:22
Speaker 1: why did Twitter finally make this decision? And what did
37:26
Speaker 1: you think of the reasoning, Tommy?
37:28
Speaker 2: So, I mean, I think they suspended him because they
37:30
Speaker 2: were worried about further incitement of violence. And Facebook made
37:34
Speaker 2: a similar argument about their suspension until the end of
37:38
Speaker 2: his term. And so, yeah. personally, I think if, if
37:42
Speaker 2: incitement to violence was your concern, then the time to
37:45
Speaker 2: suspend him was probably when he tweeted, when the looting starts,
37:48
Speaker 2: the shooting starts, that seemed pretty clear at the time. But, uh,
37:52
Speaker 2: this whole discussion, I think it's a lot easier for
37:55
Speaker 2: these companies when Trump is the former president for sort
37:58
Speaker 2: of like, you know, first amendment adjacent issues, but also
38:02
Speaker 2: because he's no longer going to be powerful. Um, de-platforming
38:06
Speaker 2: him will absolutely curtail his reach. It had a big
38:09
Speaker 2: impact on people like Alex Jones and Milo and those creeps.
38:12
Speaker 2: But it's important to remember that Trump incited this riot
38:15
Speaker 2: at a speech, at a rally, right? Like he's going
38:17
Speaker 2: to be able to get a message out. He's going
38:19
Speaker 2: to be able to incite people again, nor does this
38:22
Speaker 2: solve the broader problem on these platforms, right? Like they
38:25
Speaker 2: let Facebook, YouTube, others, they let QAnon fester and grow
38:30
Speaker 2: for years. And if you think about QAnon for a
38:35
Speaker 2: It is a sprawling, almost impossible to understand conspiracy theory,
38:38
Speaker 2: but the gist is that the government is run by
38:41
Speaker 2: an elite cabal of satanic pedophiles who rape, kill, and
38:44
Speaker 2: eat children. Now, to me, that's a crazy thing to believe,
38:48
Speaker 2: and I get why people mock it.
38:50
Speaker 1: That's your opinion, Tommy.
38:51
Speaker 2: Which is one man's opinion. But if you sincerely believe
38:54
Speaker 2: that's happening, of course you're willing to do extreme, even
38:57
Speaker 2: violent things to stop children from being harmed, right? So
39:01
Speaker 2: this deplatforming, it doesn't solve the problem of misinformation necessarily.
39:04
Speaker 2: It doesn't solve the problem of Facebook's refusal to fact-check
39:09
Speaker 2: political ads in the last decade. There's all these problems
39:12
Speaker 2: with these platforms still. And I see it getting worse
39:16
Speaker 2: before it gets better, whether or not Trump is on
39:18
Speaker 2: there firing away. I'm not that hopeful about it. This impeachment, right?
39:23
Speaker 3: It actually doesn't... Even this impeachment around Trump's incitement that
39:27
Speaker 3: we all believe is necessary, it actually... doesn't reflect an
39:30
Speaker 3: escalation in Trump's tone. It reflects an escalation in Trump's consequences.
39:35
Speaker 3: And the same can be said about banning Trump from
39:38
Speaker 3: Twitter or Facebook, the decision to remove Parler, the decision
39:42
Speaker 3: to not process payments. It is not about really an
39:46
Speaker 3: escalation in rhetoric. It is about a a final, it
39:51
Speaker 3: is about the attack on the Capitol causing a, um,
39:54
Speaker 3: a collective recognition of consequences because Twitter has been failing
39:58
Speaker 3: to enforce its policies for years. Uh, Facebook has been
40:02
Speaker 3: failing to enforce its policies for years because Trump was
40:05
Speaker 3: the president. And, you know, cynically, you can also say, uh,
40:08
Speaker 3: it is interesting that in the days after it is
40:11
Speaker 3: clear that Democrats will control the house, the Senate, uh,
40:14
Speaker 3: and the presidency, and we'll have the ability to regulate these, uh,
40:17
Speaker 3: industries and may pursue, uh, uh, uh, changes and, and,
40:20
Speaker 3: you know, against anti-competitive practices against, against hate speech, against incitement,
40:24
Speaker 3: what have you, uh, that suddenly, uh, they're behaving, um, more, um,
40:29
Speaker 3: with more integrity.
40:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know a lot of, so some Republicans immediately
40:32
Speaker 1: pointed out that like, you know, there are other world leaders, authoritarians,
40:36
Speaker 1: dictators who've incited violence with Twitter that they, you know,
40:39
Speaker 1: Twitter hasn't enforced their terms of service. And I hope
40:42
Speaker 1: they do. Yeah, do it. I hope that after this,
40:45
Speaker 1: Twitter enforces their terms of service more broadly and does
40:50
Speaker 1: more about these problems. Look, I think it's a very
40:53
Speaker 1: tough challenge, right? Because, like, do we want Mark Zuckerberg
40:58
Speaker 1: and Jack– making all the decisions about who gets to
41:03
Speaker 1: use these platforms, which are private companies, but have also become,
41:08
Speaker 1: you know, you could argue public utilities, right? They're the
41:11
Speaker 1: way that people communicate. So like, do we want them
41:12
Speaker 1: making the decisions? No, but do we want like, do
41:15
Speaker 1: we want the next kind of Trump administration making the
41:17
Speaker 1: decisions either about what happens? I don't know if I
41:21
Speaker 1: want that either, right? So you clearly need a legal
41:24
Speaker 1: structure that can survive both, you know, a legal structure
41:27
Speaker 1: that is sort of different than either corporations making decisions
41:31
Speaker 1: on their own about everything that control most of the
41:33
Speaker 1: market because they're basically monopolies and let it be. And
41:37
Speaker 1: also like people like Trump making these decisions, if really
41:40
Speaker 1: terrible people end up in government, it's a, it is
41:42
Speaker 1: a tough balance.
41:43
Speaker 2: It is.
41:43
Speaker 3: I also will say, I talked about this with Zainab Tufekci,
41:45
Speaker 3: who's been thinking about this a long time. And you know,
41:47
Speaker 3: some of this is, is fundamental challenges related to the
41:50
Speaker 3: business model in that engagement is how you make money.
41:55
Speaker 3: It's how you get people to see your ads and
41:56
Speaker 3: click on your ads and share your content. And what
41:59
Speaker 3: we have found is that engagement grows with extremism, with radicalization, with,
42:05
Speaker 3: you know, hates, with the most extreme version of an argument, right?
42:09
Speaker 3: That's what causes this kind of escalation. And so, like,
42:11
Speaker 3: these are really hard questions about how we engage with
42:14
Speaker 3: each other. Like, no, removing the president for inciting violence
42:20
Speaker 3: is not a First Amendment issue. But there are really
42:22
Speaker 3: important free speech issues that will be at stake that
42:24
Speaker 3: are really difficult and, like, I celebrate, I am very
42:29
Speaker 3: happy that we have deplatformed white nationalists to pursue violence
42:35
Speaker 3: and foment insurrection. But I do think, yeah, the answer
42:43
Speaker 3: isn't putting who gets to speak and who doesn't into
42:46
Speaker 3: the hands of a group.
42:47
Speaker 2: Of capricious billionaires. That is a fucking recipe for.
42:53
Speaker 2: Disaster too.
42:54
Speaker 1: Capricious billionaires or future authoritarians, right? Right. Especially with how
42:59
Speaker 1: broken our political system is right now. And so it's
43:02
Speaker 1: pretty scary in either direction. I do think, you know,
43:04
Speaker 1: the few Trump aides who haven't yet resigned are spinning
43:07
Speaker 1: reporters that this ban is a political gift to Trump
43:10
Speaker 1: because it's going to rally conservatives against big tech. And,
43:13
Speaker 1: you know, sure enough, most of them have been spending
43:15
Speaker 1: the weekend treating the ban as a bigger crisis than
43:17
Speaker 1: the attack on the Capitol. Trump is apparently, who knows,
43:21
Speaker 1: sometime today giving remarks. I guess that will be broadcast
43:25
Speaker 1: to millions of people about how he's being silenced. So
43:29
Speaker 1: that will happen too. Do you guys think this is
43:32
Speaker 1: going to work as a political issue for Republicans?
43:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it will. I think they will rally
43:37
Speaker 2: around this. You're already seeing it. Again, they are the
43:39
Speaker 2: party of grievance. The facts don't care about your feelings
43:43
Speaker 2: crowd constantly whines about how it makes them feel. And
43:46
Speaker 2: so it doesn't matter that they have a propaganda network
43:49
Speaker 2: called Fox News, doesn't matter that there are Rush Limbaugh
43:53
Speaker 2: and dozens of podcasts and news outlets that will, you know,
43:56
Speaker 2: basically are political weapons and not news in any way,
44:00
Speaker 2: shape or form. They're just going to say that there's silence.
44:03
Speaker 2: And so, you know, but like at the end of
44:06
Speaker 2: the day, I'm glad they're off there. I'm glad that
44:09
Speaker 2: Trump and some of these worst actors are off platforms
44:13
Speaker 2: like Instagram or Facebook that have billions of users that
44:16
Speaker 2: can get sucked into their garbage.
44:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like It's like, I am concerned about, you know,
44:22
Speaker 3: social media reveals these problems and exacerbates these problems. I
44:26
Speaker 3: am worried about the part of this where there will
44:28
Speaker 3: be festering nationalistic movements that we don't see, right? Like
44:34
Speaker 3: that is alarming, right? Like the sentiment won't disappear overnight,
44:39
Speaker 3: but the part in which these entities play an incredibly
44:42
Speaker 3: important role in fomenting and exacerbating these problems, it's really
44:45
Speaker 3: important that they're gone.
44:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Facebook's own researchers found in 2016 that
44:53
Speaker 2: 64% of all people who joined extremist Facebook groups did
44:55
Speaker 2: so because the Facebook algorithm recommended it. That is really bad, right?
45:01
Speaker 2: Like there's no constitutional right to Instagram. There's no law
45:05
Speaker 2: requiring Facebook to ensure that the Proud Boys are heard.
45:08
Speaker 2: And like, you know, to me, the problem that got
45:11
Speaker 2: us here as executives like Mark Zuckerberg cared more about
45:13
Speaker 2: being called partisan than about spreading misinformation. And the easy
45:17
Speaker 2: answer was adopting this absolutist policy on free speech. And
45:23
Speaker 2: in practice, what that meant was that Facebook didn't ban
45:26
Speaker 2: Holocaust denial until October of 2020. It feels like you
45:30
Speaker 2: had a lot of time to figure that one out.
45:32
Speaker 2: And so if I'm thinking about the future of Facebook's business,
45:37
Speaker 2: I would worry about the way that the algorithm rewards engagement.
45:43
Speaker 2: And I would think about ways to create a platform
45:45
Speaker 2: that's actually fun. that is safe where you want to be.
45:48
Speaker 2: And that probably means booting Nazis. It means clear rules
45:52
Speaker 2: of the road, enforcing them, more humans to help you moderate,
45:56
Speaker 2: like not diluting yourself into AI, being able to like,
46:00
Speaker 2: you know, fix this for you. And like, yeah, I
46:03
Speaker 2: too am nervous about white nationalists being able to coordinate
46:07
Speaker 2: on like Parler and Gab. And a little while back,
46:10
Speaker 2: I created a little sock puppet account for myself on Parler,
46:12
Speaker 2: just a shit post at like assholes over there. And like,
46:15
Speaker 2: it was a blast. I'm having a lot of fun
46:16
Speaker 2: doing it. But you know, what is important to me
46:19
Speaker 2: is that there aren't billions of people on these platforms
46:23
Speaker 2: and like your aunt or your nephew aren't going to
46:25
Speaker 2: get recommended some extremist group or sucked into this stuff.
46:29
Speaker 2: And then like the law enforcement is going to have
46:32
Speaker 2: to be on some of these platforms dealing with violent
46:35
Speaker 2: elements or threats. But that was sort of always the case.
46:40
Speaker 4: Yeah.
46:40
Speaker 1: I think that, A lot of these big companies like
46:43
Speaker 1: Facebook want you to believe that there's this neutrality, right?
46:47
Speaker 1: And it's just this public square where they're just connecting
46:50
Speaker 1: people and people can do what they want. But the
46:52
Speaker 1: algorithms give lie.
46:54
Speaker 2: To that, right?
46:55
Speaker 1: And that's especially true with Facebook and YouTube more than
46:58
Speaker 1: a lot of these other platforms is that they actually
47:00
Speaker 1: send people to these bad places. I do think one
47:03
Speaker 1: more point about Trump too. It is interesting. We didn't
47:08
Speaker 1: hear from Trump all weekend.
47:09
Speaker 2: Right.
47:10
Speaker 1: Because, you know, and everyone's like, well, he's banned from Twitter.
47:12
Speaker 1: But Trump could have gone to the briefing room at
47:15
Speaker 1: any moment this weekend. He could have sat for any interview.
47:18
Speaker 1: He could have, you know, Kayleigh McEnany could have like
47:21
Speaker 1: live streamed him on on her Twitter account. You know,
47:24
Speaker 1: like there's a million ways Trump could have communicated. He's
47:26
Speaker 1: the president.
47:27
Speaker 3: He could have been giving a farewell fucking address in
47:29
Speaker 3: the Oval Office prime time.
47:32
Speaker 1: But it also shows how lazy he's become with the
47:34
Speaker 1: way he communicates.
47:35
Speaker 6: Right.
47:36
Speaker 1: He stopped. First, he stopped doing interviews with real news outlets.
47:39
Speaker 1: Then he was even afraid of doing interviews with places
47:41
Speaker 1: like Fox because Chris Wallace slapped him around a bunch.
47:46
Speaker 1: He does those video recordings sometimes where he sounds all
47:51
Speaker 1: stiff and he doesn't sound like himself. The only place
47:54
Speaker 1: where he's really him is Twitter, which is why he
47:58
Speaker 1: has stepped back from communication since being banned, which is
48:01
Speaker 1: why I think it is going to have an impact,
48:04
Speaker 1: not just in the near term to hopefully prevent more violence.
48:08
Speaker 1: But I do think in the long term politically for him,
48:11
Speaker 1: like if they don't get conviction and they don't get
48:14
Speaker 1: him banned from public office, I think him unable to
48:18
Speaker 1: use Twitter in the lead up to 2024 could be
48:21
Speaker 1: almost as damaging to his future prospects, which would be fantastic.
48:25
Speaker 2: And look, on more of an individual level, it also
48:27
Speaker 2: means he can't like target people specific people on Twitter
48:32
Speaker 2: and attack them and lead these little Twitter mobs to
48:36
Speaker 2: go after them. It's gotten really dicey for a lot
48:38
Speaker 2: of journalists who have seemingly crossed him or in his
48:41
Speaker 2: mind crossed him, especially women, especially people of color. I
48:45
Speaker 2: totally understand why people have been advocating for this decision.
48:49
Speaker 2: It hasn't been simple. You're right.
48:53
Speaker 3: It matters more when he's not the president because as president,
48:55
Speaker 3: he's had He's had the ability to say whatever he
48:59
Speaker 3: wants across various platforms. And it also matters that it's
49:01
Speaker 3: all of them doing it at once. Because if he
49:03
Speaker 3: left Twitter, he'd be able to spread filth on Facebook.
49:06
Speaker 3: If he left Facebook, he'd do it on Instagram. No
49:07
Speaker 3: more MAGA macrame on Pinterest. Like, that's good.
49:13
Speaker 2: The Pinterest thing is so funny.
49:15
Speaker 1: Pinterest hardest hit. um all right when we come back
49:19
Speaker 1: he's on etsy i will talk he's lurking on etsy
49:24
Speaker 1: um when we come back i will talk to uh
49:26
Speaker 1: former bernie sanders campaign manager thad shakir I'm now joined
49:39
Speaker 1: by Bernie Sanders, 2020 presidential campaign manager and a former
49:42
Speaker 1: advisor to Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid, friend of the pod,
49:46
Speaker 1: Faz Shakir. Thanks for coming back on the pod, Faz.
49:48
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, John. Nice to see you.
49:50
Speaker 1: You too. I want to start with how the Georgia
49:54
Speaker 1: runoffs have completely transformed what's possible in terms of Democratic governance,
49:59
Speaker 1: which I feel like got a bit lost last week
50:02
Speaker 1: in all the chaos. What, in your mind, is the
50:06
Speaker 1: biggest difference between an extremely narrow Republican Senate majority and
50:12
Speaker 1: an extremely narrow Democratic Senate majority, which we will now have.
50:16
Speaker 6: Well, so the most practical impact is that with a
50:19
Speaker 6: new Senate majority leader in Chuck Schumer, you can schedule
50:23
Speaker 6: votes that you otherwise couldn't have. And that's an incredible power.
50:25
Speaker 6: I mean, the gridlock that Mitch McConnell has had on
50:29
Speaker 6: the Senate has really been effectuated through the fact that
50:32
Speaker 6: he can just schedule shit and he schedules it all
50:35
Speaker 6: the time, right? And he doesn't, what he doesn't schedule.
50:37
Speaker 6: So Obviously, in the last two years when Nancy Pelosi
50:39
Speaker 6: held the Speaker's gavel, they passed various things like a
50:42
Speaker 6: $ 15 minimum wage, like H.R.1 that had a series of
50:45
Speaker 6: democracy reforms. And you can have your differences of perspectives
50:48
Speaker 6: and opinions on things, but at least you want things
50:51
Speaker 6: to have a vote. And with Chuck Schumer holding the
50:54
Speaker 6: majority leader, that power over the calendar and scheduling is incredible.
50:58
Speaker 6: It obviously changes the dynamic for Joe Biden and his
51:00
Speaker 6: administration as well. Hopefully, knock on wood, he can get
51:02
Speaker 6: a lot of his appointments through. He can get judicial
51:05
Speaker 6: confirmations through. all pending keeping all those 50 votes plus
51:09
Speaker 6: Kamala Harris's vice president in the chair.
51:12
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of that, it seems like the Joe standing
51:17
Speaker 1: in the way of progressive legislation won't necessarily be Biden,
51:20
Speaker 1: but Manchin. He already criticized making $ 2, 000 stimulus checks a
51:25
Speaker 1: priority last week. If you were in Biden's White House
51:28
Speaker 1: or if you were in Schumer's office, you've been in
51:30
Speaker 1: Reid's office before when he was a majority leader, How
51:34
Speaker 1: would you deal with someone like Manchin, who seems relatively
51:38
Speaker 1: insulated from political pressure as a senator in a deep
51:42
Speaker 1: red state who's got four years left on his term?
51:45
Speaker 4: Right.
51:45
Speaker 6: I mean, first of all, we have to start with
51:48
Speaker 6: the assumption that maybe there aren't many things that will
51:50
Speaker 6: move Joe Manchin. And we've tried everything to change his
51:53
Speaker 6: conscience and morality on these things. Certainly, you're talking about
51:56
Speaker 6: a senator who in many ways gets his rocks off
51:58
Speaker 6: of identifying kind of a stiff arm of the Democratic
52:01
Speaker 6: brand at times, and that helps him in West Virginia,
52:04
Speaker 6: so you have to be almost very intentional about where
52:06
Speaker 6: you're picking issues that resonate with West Virginians. What is baffling, John,
52:12
Speaker 6: is you and I are having a conversation.
52:13
Speaker 4: About $ 2, 000 direct.
52:14
Speaker 6: Payments, because if you were Joe Manchin, that's something that's
52:17
Speaker 6: gotta have probably 80% support in West Virginia, particularly rural
52:21
Speaker 6: West Virginia, and the fact that he started from a
52:23
Speaker 6: position of absolutely not, hell no, makes you say, what
52:26
Speaker 6: are you talking about? The one thing we could count on, hopefully,
52:29
Speaker 6: was even if you weren't going to be a loyal
52:31
Speaker 6: Democratic soldier, you would represent West Virginian interests. So on
52:35
Speaker 6: that one, I am baffled it doesn't start a good
52:38
Speaker 6: trend here. That said, he has suggested that he's moving
52:41
Speaker 6: off of that position a bit. For us, those of
52:44
Speaker 6: us in the progressive movement trying to push these issues,
52:47
Speaker 6: It means, let me just reflect on one instance where
52:50
Speaker 6: Joe Manchin actually moved on, which was during ACA, right?
52:53
Speaker 4: ACA repeal.
52:54
Speaker 6: When Republicans come in, he had had a position of
52:56
Speaker 6: fixing it and doing whatever he wanted to it.
52:59
Speaker 4: He moved off of that.
53:00
Speaker 6: Obviously, there was a lot of grassroots town halls, not
53:04
Speaker 6: only in West Virginia, but around the country that changed
53:07
Speaker 6: and gave him essentially the argument to say, listen, I
53:10
Speaker 6: went and talked to this person in West Virginia and
53:13
Speaker 6: I might have had a position before, but I've been
53:14
Speaker 6: compelled and moved to the right position now. I think
53:18
Speaker 6: you have to give them that permission slip by saying,
53:21
Speaker 6: here's all these people who are working people in West Virginia.
53:24
Speaker 6: What would you do with that extra $ 1, 400? How much
53:26
Speaker 6: would it change your life? Go tell Joe Manchin and
53:29
Speaker 6: give him the permission to slip to say, I've heard
53:31
Speaker 6: from so many working people and this matters.
53:33
Speaker 4: This matters a lot. And so therefore, I'm going to
53:34
Speaker 4: do the right thing.
53:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, the first instinct of a lot
53:37
Speaker 1: of us who've been on the outside as activists and
53:40
Speaker 1: organizers is to put pressure on someone like this. From your,
53:44
Speaker 1: you know, your old job in Harry Reid's office, you know,
53:47
Speaker 1: is there an inside game there too? Is some of
53:49
Speaker 1: this carrots as much as it sticks? Like they're bringing
53:52
Speaker 1: back earmarks in this Congress. Do you think there's possibilities there?
53:57
Speaker 6: So a couple of things there. One is the traditional
53:59
Speaker 6: tools of the, you know, he's not a good, loyal Democrat.
54:03
Speaker 4: That doesn't work. Right.
54:05
Speaker 6: Joe mentioned the traditional call tools into his office. I
54:08
Speaker 6: have all these people around Twitter saying that's not going
54:11
Speaker 6: to work. That's not how it moves them. Your point
54:15
Speaker 6: is right that let's assess them on face value and
54:17
Speaker 6: take them at face value. He's a politician who represents
54:20
Speaker 6: West Virginia. What works best? For his constituents and what
54:23
Speaker 6: doesn't work for his constituents. Well, I think being able
54:26
Speaker 6: to deliver if you if you read his arguments or
54:29
Speaker 6: understood his arguments on CNN the other day about why
54:31
Speaker 6: he has concerns about direct payments, he was making an
54:33
Speaker 6: argument that way. I want to do work. I want
54:35
Speaker 6: to do jobs programs. I want to get people to work.
54:38
Speaker 6: And obviously, we agree with that, too. You can do both, right?
54:41
Speaker 6: The only thing that's stopping you from doing both is
54:43
Speaker 6: this austerity-minded politics that says we can only spend X dollars.
54:46
Speaker 6: But if you get rid of that, we can create
54:49
Speaker 6: federal jobs programs in West Virginia, and we can deliver
54:52
Speaker 6: direct payments. Joe Manchin, let's do it. And to say,
54:55
Speaker 6: as we build these infrastructure programs, there's going to be
54:57
Speaker 6: carrots for West Virginia. And there should be, quite frankly, right?
55:00
Speaker 6: There should be. And I think you're absolutely right that
55:03
Speaker 6: as you cut those deals, and there have been those
55:05
Speaker 6: deals in the past, you and I remember them well.
55:07
Speaker 4: Where you make.
55:07
Speaker 6: Sure that certain senators are targeted and they see the
55:10
Speaker 6: benefits of it. That said, it's got to be an
55:12
Speaker 6: exchange for a damn vote, right, John?
55:14
Speaker 1: Yeah.
55:15
Speaker 4: Yeah.
55:15
Speaker 1: If Joe Manchin wants to be for federal job guarantees now, great.
55:19
Speaker 4: Good to hear.
55:20
Speaker 1: So what legislative priorities do you think Biden should tackle
55:23
Speaker 1: in his first 100 days or even the first year?
55:26
Speaker 1: What's sort of at the top of the list for you?
55:27
Speaker 6: Well, you got these tensions here, John. I'm sure you're
55:29
Speaker 6: seeing it play out as well as I am, which
55:31
Speaker 6: is what has been in the bucket of these structural changes.
55:36
Speaker 6: And many of those are, let's say, voting rights, filibuster reform,
55:39
Speaker 6: like getting judicial confirmations done, getting his cabinet in place.
55:43
Speaker 6: In my mind, there's a lot of things there that
55:44
Speaker 6: are both accruing to democratic power, but also effectuating power
55:48
Speaker 6: and maintaining and kind of basically exhibiting competency of government
55:53
Speaker 6: and maintaining that competency of government.
55:55
Speaker 4: Those are valuable.
55:57
Speaker 6: What I worry about is you can't let those crowd
55:59
Speaker 6: out the things that are going to directly improve people's lives, right?
56:03
Speaker 6: So you could argue some of these other things that
56:05
Speaker 6: we're talking about over here, they're gonna just make DC
56:07
Speaker 6: function better and help us build long-term governance.
56:11
Speaker 4: That's great. Now, let's talk about.
56:13
Speaker 6: People over here who are gonna directly see a benefit
56:16
Speaker 6: in their lives. And I wanna make sure that those
56:20
Speaker 6: are getting done as well. So obviously a $ 15 minimum wage,
56:23
Speaker 6: of course, direct payments, of course, UI, of course, even
56:26
Speaker 6: healthcare expansions of some kind, of course, You know, something
56:29
Speaker 6: that people can hang on to and say, without Joe Biden,
56:31
Speaker 6: without a Democratic majority in the House, my improvement in
56:34
Speaker 6: my own life would not have occurred.
56:36
Speaker 4: And they delivered it. And so, you know, in my mind,
56:39
Speaker 4: that's really important. And marrying those two is incredibly important.
56:43
Speaker 6: Let me just give a quick anecdote on this, John,
56:45
Speaker 6: is that we passed the $ 600, right, with Senator Sanders'
56:49
Speaker 6: kind of agitation and push. You get these direct payments.
56:52
Speaker 6: into the COVID relief bill. Did you know, John, that
56:55
Speaker 6: despite the fact that we passed $ 600 in direct payments,
56:58
Speaker 6: there were millions and millions of Americans who didn't receive
57:00
Speaker 6: those direct payments, right? Because there was a snafu from
57:03
Speaker 6: the IRS and TurboTax and all this other nonsense. And
57:06
Speaker 6: my point there is, as much as we're going to
57:09
Speaker 6: do stuff, we got to make sure that the competency
57:11
Speaker 6: of governance is strong.
57:13
Speaker 4: People got to feel it.
57:14
Speaker 6: And if their experience of the government having not delivered
57:16
Speaker 6: that UI check or not deliver that direct payment, it
57:19
Speaker 6: hurts dramatically. So I would really focus on honing in
57:23
Speaker 6: both administratively and legislatively what is going to improve people's
57:26
Speaker 6: lives and make sure.
57:27
Speaker 4: It gets done.
57:28
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we've been there before. You know, when
57:30
Speaker 1: we passed the Recovery Act in 2009, people got tax cuts. How?
57:34
Speaker 1: They got it by like changing the withholding tables in
57:37
Speaker 1: their biweekly paycheck, which was, you know, barely noticeable by
57:40
Speaker 1: many people that Obama ever gave them a tax cut.
57:43
Speaker 1: And we saw that in polls years later that people
57:45
Speaker 1: didn't think they got a tax cut from the Recovery Act.
57:47
Speaker 1: So it's competence and it's delivering for people in a
57:50
Speaker 1: tangible way, but it's also sort of drawing the connection.
57:54
Speaker 1: This is why you got this benefit.
57:56
Speaker 4: That's right.
57:57
Speaker 6: Everything I'm echoing a hundred percent what you say. I
58:00
Speaker 6: would also say, John, because as you were talking, I
58:02
Speaker 6: was reminded of the other thing of 2009, 2010, which
58:05
Speaker 6: was to a degree, I will say, you know, generally
58:08
Speaker 6: I felt was discounted was the housing crisis and the
58:11
Speaker 6: impact that it was felt because people are living in
58:13
Speaker 6: a house and you get evicted from house. And, and
58:16
Speaker 6: I think there was a little bit of an oversight
58:18
Speaker 6: and like just, and also just like not the same
58:21
Speaker 6: empathy and care for that issue as it was to
58:23
Speaker 6: make sure, you know, large institutional financial institutions were functioning
58:27
Speaker 6: and back up on their feet so that way they
58:28
Speaker 6: could lend. Right. But like, if you were thinking about
58:31
Speaker 6: it from the perspective, a person sits in a house
58:33
Speaker 6: is about to be evicted, feel that pain and make
58:35
Speaker 6: sure it's delivered. Because John, I say that now, we're
58:38
Speaker 6: going to revisit that. We're literally going to revisit that
58:40
Speaker 6: in a month and two months here, as we hit
58:42
Speaker 6: a kind of the mortgage cliff, the rent cliff, like
58:45
Speaker 6: people are going to be compelled, enforced, evicted out of
58:49
Speaker 6: their homes. If you don't feel that pain and legislate
58:52
Speaker 6: and govern from that perspective, I worry that we're repeating
58:55
Speaker 6: the mistakes of 2009, 2010.
58:57
Speaker 4: Of course, there's political ruin attached to it.
59:00
Speaker 1: Well, so the other reason to prioritize sort of like
59:03
Speaker 1: tangible benefits, economic legislation is because it's going to be
59:08
Speaker 1: easier to pass. in this Senate. The way this works is,
59:13
Speaker 1: you know, you still need 60 votes if you can't
59:15
Speaker 1: get rid of the filibuster. And it doesn't seem like
59:17
Speaker 1: we'll be able to get rid of the filibuster because
59:18
Speaker 1: of Joe Manchin and maybe a couple other Democratic senators.
59:21
Speaker 1: But you can still pass a budget reconciliation bill once
59:24
Speaker 1: a year that only requires 51 votes. in order to
59:27
Speaker 1: pass a budget reconciliation bill or pass something through budget reconciliation,
59:30
Speaker 1: obviously it needs to affect the budget. So what, what
59:34
Speaker 1: can be done through bucket budget reconciliation, um, that you're
59:39
Speaker 1: hoping Joe Biden gets done in the Democrats and what can't?
59:42
Speaker 6: A lot, obviously a lot can get done and should
59:45
Speaker 6: get done. I mean, and just to, Add one point
59:47
Speaker 6: to what you just said is you could in this
59:49
Speaker 6: first year probably do budget reconciliation twice because we didn't
59:52
Speaker 6: pass a budget last year under Trump. And so there's
59:54
Speaker 6: actually an opportunity to do it early on here and
59:56
Speaker 6: then again later in the year, which is in fact
59:59
Speaker 6: what Trump did.
1:00:00
Speaker 4: He did it twice.
1:00:01
Speaker 6: The first one, if you remember, was on ACA repeal,
1:00:03
Speaker 6: lost by one vote, John McCain's vote. And then he
1:00:06
Speaker 6: went back to the well and did it a second
1:00:07
Speaker 6: time later that year to pass corporate tax cuts. That
1:00:10
Speaker 6: is what happened in the first year of Trump. So
1:00:12
Speaker 6: we can do it twice here. And at least he's
1:00:14
Speaker 6: got a unique opportunity to do it.
1:00:16
Speaker 4: And that means you.
1:00:16
Speaker 6: Can– there's a lot of things. This is where the
1:00:20
Speaker 6: kind of hyper-competency of the 50 votes is going to
1:00:25
Speaker 6: be so critical because you've got to move things quickly.
1:00:27
Speaker 6: You've got to build that first package. You've got to
1:00:28
Speaker 6: set up a vote, and then you've got to move
1:00:30
Speaker 6: to the second one too. So you can do– I
1:00:33
Speaker 6: think the need is multi-trillions, and the reason I say
1:00:36
Speaker 6: that is when you look at the list, you take
1:00:38
Speaker 6: the housing issue I was talking about. You take education
1:00:41
Speaker 6: and leaving– student debt issues, making college tuition free. I mean,
1:00:46
Speaker 6: things that Joe Biden campaigned on, you take the climate
1:00:49
Speaker 6: infrastructure stuff, you take the basic COVID package of just
1:00:52
Speaker 6: making sure vaccines are distributed and we can set up
1:00:55
Speaker 6: mass vaccination sites.
1:00:56
Speaker 4: All these things cost money. Schools need money.
1:01:02
Speaker 6: There's a whole food assistance needs money, right? There's a
1:01:05
Speaker 6: whole bunch of things that you need to do. They
1:01:07
Speaker 6: can all be done through reconciliation.
1:01:08
Speaker 4: They can be done.
1:01:11
Speaker 6: The way formally it works is that we'll pass, you know,
1:01:14
Speaker 6: a general budget that sets a top line number and
1:01:16
Speaker 6: then send these kind of in the Senate, you send
1:01:19
Speaker 6: in the House, you send these essentially the budget chairs
1:01:22
Speaker 6: of each Bernie Sanders being in the Senate would send,
1:01:25
Speaker 6: you know, an instruction to the Senate Help Committee. I
1:01:27
Speaker 6: need you to work on, you know, here's your top
1:01:30
Speaker 6: line number X billions of dollars. and you need to
1:01:32
Speaker 6: pass healthcare expansion that meets this target. And Senate Finance Committee,
1:01:37
Speaker 6: I need you to work on housing, and here's your issue,
1:01:40
Speaker 6: and here's your top line number, go.
1:01:42
Speaker 4: And then they got to bring it back. You got
1:01:43
Speaker 4: to put it all together, and you got to put
1:01:44
Speaker 4: it on the floor, and it gets 50 votes.
1:01:46
Speaker 6: And it's limited debate. So what a wonderful tool, right?
1:01:49
Speaker 6: Limited debate, 50 votes, you could get it done. And then,
1:01:52
Speaker 6: as I said, hopefully march off to doing it again
1:01:55
Speaker 6: and having two bites at the apple.
1:01:57
Speaker 1: I've seen some conflicting reports on this. Do you think
1:01:59
Speaker 1: that a public option can get done through budget reconciliation?
1:02:03
Speaker 1: And do you think, I think this is easier, but
1:02:05
Speaker 1: an expansion of Medicare by changing the eligibility age could
1:02:09
Speaker 1: also get done through budget reconciliation?
1:02:11
Speaker 4: In theory, it could.
1:02:12
Speaker 6: I mean, now we're getting into the weeds of the
1:02:14
Speaker 6: Senate where you get the role of the Senate parliamentarian.
1:02:18
Speaker 6: And Chuck Schumer will obviously, you know, no dummy about
1:02:22
Speaker 6: any of this stuff. So he and his staff will
1:02:24
Speaker 6: certainly work with that parliamentarian to make sure that we
1:02:26
Speaker 6: are in.
1:02:27
Speaker 4: A good place.
1:02:28
Speaker 6: But as you go through it, you know, there's this
1:02:31
Speaker 6: question of, you know, whether things survive the quote unquote
1:02:34
Speaker 6: bird rule and are going beyond, you know, the spending
1:02:38
Speaker 6: powers and taxing powers of that particular budget resolution. So
1:02:43
Speaker 6: I think the answer, short answer is yes, John, that
1:02:45
Speaker 6: the limiting factor isn't, I don't think we'll end up
1:02:48
Speaker 6: being the parliamentary and the limiting factor will be the
1:02:51
Speaker 6: desire of senators and house members to spend. And you've
1:02:55
Speaker 6: already seen Joe Biden say he's comfortable with deficit spending.
1:03:00
Speaker 6: We need to encourage economic growth. Now is the time
1:03:03
Speaker 6: when people are hurting. We need to address inequality by
1:03:05
Speaker 6: the government stepping up. If he can prevail across the caucus,
1:03:09
Speaker 6: I don't think there's too many limitations here on the
1:03:13
Speaker 6: ability to address these things. And healthcare expansions, you're honing
1:03:16
Speaker 6: in on the right one. You could obviously expand Medicare
1:03:19
Speaker 6: eligibility age. You could also just make sure Medicare is
1:03:21
Speaker 6: covering all the costs of people right now. So if
1:03:23
Speaker 6: you were like you were uninsured, you went to the doctor,
1:03:26
Speaker 6: just bill Medicare for that, right? Or you were insured,
1:03:30
Speaker 6: you went to the doctor, the insurer is going to
1:03:31
Speaker 6: pay that half, the part that you would have paid,
1:03:33
Speaker 6: bill Medicare for that, right? It would be an easy
1:03:36
Speaker 6: way to execute healthcare right now.
1:03:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:03:39
Speaker 1: Speaking of things that got lost last week, I did
1:03:41
Speaker 1: think that Biden's statement that we should be investing in
1:03:44
Speaker 1: deficit spending was pretty significant. Just to hear an incoming
1:03:51
Speaker 1: Democratic president say that, and I say that working for
1:03:54
Speaker 1: a president, having worked for a president who spent, you know,
1:03:56
Speaker 1: a lot of time on deficit reductions. That was in
1:04:01
Speaker 1: many ways wasted.
1:04:01
Speaker 4: And let me.
1:04:02
Speaker 6: Say, John, about that, because, you know, obviously I'm part
1:04:05
Speaker 6: of a movement of people who had concerns about when
1:04:07
Speaker 6: Obama did it, the sequester, all of the things that
1:04:09
Speaker 6: happened as a result of both the politics and the policy.
1:04:12
Speaker 6: And we're upset about it. It was lasting upset, you know,
1:04:15
Speaker 6: for about 10 years plus. And, you know, the goal
1:04:18
Speaker 6: of those of us who had concerns is to compel
1:04:20
Speaker 6: and move people to your perspective, right, to agree with you.
1:04:24
Speaker 6: And Joe Biden here is telling you, essentially, yeah, I
1:04:26
Speaker 6: may have been part of those deals that cut deals
1:04:28
Speaker 6: with Mitch McConnell, may not have had the best impact
1:04:31
Speaker 6: in the world.
1:04:31
Speaker 4: However, I'm telling you, I agree with you.
1:04:33
Speaker 6: And I would urge all the people who are with
1:04:36
Speaker 6: us on these fights, with Bernie Sanders on the fights,
1:04:38
Speaker 6: to take the yes for an answer and say, hey,
1:04:41
Speaker 6: that's great. You're with us now. Well, there's some problems
1:04:44
Speaker 6: in the past. You're with us now. Let's get this done.
1:04:46
Speaker 6: Let's let arms have that multi-trillion dollar proposal, which was
1:04:50
Speaker 6: the other key element, John, if you heard what he said.
1:04:51
Speaker 6: He was saying, trillions of dollars, which is exactly right.
1:04:54
Speaker 6: You know, you remember when Rahm Emanuel back in 2009
1:04:58
Speaker 6: famously was, don't give me anything with a T in
1:05:00
Speaker 6: front of it was his view on, on the recovery act,
1:05:02
Speaker 6: nothing with a T here, Joe Biden is saying trillions.
1:05:06
Speaker 4: I'm telling you, I want trillions.
1:05:08
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:05:09
Speaker 1: So how do we, I guess this is a question
1:05:11
Speaker 1: about sort of expectation setting that I sort of worry about.
1:05:14
Speaker 1: So there's a set of issues. We talked about budget reconciliation.
1:05:17
Speaker 1: there's a set of priorities that will be subject to
1:05:20
Speaker 1: a filibuster, right? Whether it's democracy reforms, whether it's HR1,
1:05:25
Speaker 1: whether it's statehood for DC, $ 15 minimum wage, as you
1:05:28
Speaker 1: talked about. So, you know, Joe Biden can push for these,
1:05:32
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer can put them up for a vote, Republicans
1:05:35
Speaker 1: can filibuster and kill them. How do you like strategically
1:05:40
Speaker 1: sort of keep the base of activists and organizers feeling
1:05:44
Speaker 1: excited and energetic and not you know, after two years
1:05:49
Speaker 1: or four years thinking, what is this? We had a
1:05:51
Speaker 1: majority in the House and the Senate. We had Joe
1:05:53
Speaker 1: Biden as president. We couldn't get any of this stuff done. Like,
1:05:56
Speaker 1: maybe it's not worth it after all. Like, is it
1:05:58
Speaker 1: just about getting caught trying? Is it about really going
1:06:01
Speaker 1: after the Republicans on this? Like, how do you navigate that?
1:06:03
Speaker 6: I do not think that there is an easy answer.
1:06:06
Speaker 6: Governing is hard. And we now have the responsibility of governing.
1:06:08
Speaker 6: So there's not a simple answer. But some of the
1:06:11
Speaker 6: thoughts that would have come immediately to mind, John, is
1:06:14
Speaker 6: you want to leave some space for people to push,
1:06:18
Speaker 6: push healthily on you even, right? And I think Ron
1:06:21
Speaker 6: Klain and the Biden White House understands this pretty well.
1:06:26
Speaker 6: You want that healthy pressure pushing you to the positions
1:06:29
Speaker 6: you want to get. It isn't to say, oh, I
1:06:31
Speaker 6: landed a good position. You guys should all be happy
1:06:33
Speaker 6: about it. Be nice and applaud me. Welcome the pressure.
1:06:38
Speaker 6: I would also say that the other parts of it
1:06:40
Speaker 6: are couple a legislative approach with an executive approach. which
1:06:46
Speaker 6: is to say, okay, if I'm going to push for
1:06:48
Speaker 6: a $ 15 minimum wage, why don't I also figure out
1:06:51
Speaker 6: what I can do executively on a $ 15 minimum wage
1:06:54
Speaker 6: for federal contractors and then tie these campaigns together so
1:06:58
Speaker 6: that on the one hand, I can show executive action.
1:07:00
Speaker 4: I'm going to do as much as I can do.
1:07:02
Speaker 6: I'm going to go tell the American public I am
1:07:04
Speaker 6: doing everything within my power. And now I have a
1:07:08
Speaker 6: campaign set up to go and compel senators who are
1:07:11
Speaker 6: on the fence or are filibustering that I'm pushing on them.
1:07:15
Speaker 4: They need to take the next step. I'm going to
1:07:17
Speaker 4: push on them to do the same thing.
1:07:18
Speaker 6: So what I'm suggesting to you, John, is coupling executive
1:07:21
Speaker 6: action with a campaign around your legislation that requires identifying
1:07:26
Speaker 6: the people who are up in 2022 in sensitive seats
1:07:29
Speaker 6: and going there in Wisconsin, Florida, Pennsylvania, go into their states,
1:07:35
Speaker 6: go on local media, and push and compel.
1:07:37
Speaker 4: You're running a campaign. The campaign has not stopped.
1:07:39
Speaker 6: You're campaigning for your legislative items today.
1:07:41
Speaker 4: And you should make it difficult on them.
1:07:45
Speaker 1: You talked about housing. Are there other priorities that you
1:07:47
Speaker 1: think Biden should be pushing more aggressively on that aren't
1:07:50
Speaker 1: being talked about enough so far?
1:07:52
Speaker 6: Well, we've touched on a debate here. I just think
1:07:55
Speaker 6: that this health care issue is going to be a
1:07:57
Speaker 6: big deal.
1:07:58
Speaker 4: And I'm not sure.
1:07:59
Speaker 6: And the reason I say that, John, is because I
1:08:00
Speaker 6: haven't heard a great.
1:08:03
Speaker 4: Policy solution from them yet on it.
1:08:05
Speaker 6: And our friends in the Democratic Party have said that COBRA,
1:08:09
Speaker 6: extensions are the way to go, right? Like for those
1:08:11
Speaker 6: of you who've lived and had Cobra, it is awful, right?
1:08:14
Speaker 6: I mean, the costs go up, it is unaffordable. And
1:08:18
Speaker 6: if you're going to have the government pay Cobra, it's
1:08:21
Speaker 6: a huge windfall for health insurers, right? Because they were
1:08:24
Speaker 6: going to get the $ 900 from you a month or
1:08:26
Speaker 6: whatever it was going to be, $ 1, 000. Now the government's
1:08:29
Speaker 6: going to pay it. Wow, what a wonderful deal for them.
1:08:31
Speaker 6: And if you're going to spend that much money as
1:08:32
Speaker 6: a government, why the hell weren't you thinking about a
1:08:34
Speaker 6: different approach that would more effectively, efficiently have public sector
1:08:38
Speaker 6: playing that role? So There's, I think in my mind,
1:08:41
Speaker 6: at least two easier solutions that even if they weren't
1:08:43
Speaker 6: going to go for Medicare for all, which I understand
1:08:45
Speaker 6: Joe Biden wasn't there in the primary.
1:08:47
Speaker 4: I don't expect him to be there as a president,
1:08:48
Speaker 4: but there's two other solutions.
1:08:50
Speaker 6: I was suggesting earlier having Medicare just pay for the
1:08:54
Speaker 6: uninsured who go get a COVID test, go get COVID treatment.
1:08:57
Speaker 4: Just have Medicare pay. Build Medicare for them. Get it done.
1:09:01
Speaker 6: And that way you've got universal health insurance. Also, Pramila
1:09:05
Speaker 6: Jayapal has this proposal of automatic enrollment. So if you
1:09:07
Speaker 6: lost your job during COVID and you lost your associated
1:09:10
Speaker 6: health care with it, just put them in a federal program.
1:09:13
Speaker 6: In this immediate moment in time, put them on the
1:09:15
Speaker 6: roll so that they're going to have health insurance. We
1:09:17
Speaker 6: should not have millions and millions of people out there lingering.
1:09:20
Speaker 6: And so I think this issue of healthcare is going
1:09:22
Speaker 6: to end up becoming a big one. We've been there before,
1:09:24
Speaker 6: we may be there again, because it just has so
1:09:27
Speaker 6: much significant impact. And we're living, John, through a healthcare crisis,
1:09:31
Speaker 6: which sometimes gets lost, right? It's an economic crisis, but
1:09:33
Speaker 6: it is a healthcare crisis. It will continue to be
1:09:35
Speaker 6: that if we don't address it.
1:09:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think that makes sense. Faz,
1:09:41
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
1:09:43
Speaker 1: Come back anytime and take care.
1:09:46
Speaker 4: Thank you, John. Appreciate you having me.
1:09:53
Speaker 1: Thanks to Faz for joining us today. We'll talk to
1:09:56
Speaker 1: you guys later this week.
1:09:57
Speaker 2: Catch me on Parler. See you guys there. It's a
1:10:00
Speaker 2: terrible app.
1:10:00
Speaker 3: Buy his book. Buy Tommy's book on Parler.
1:10:04
Speaker 2: Most of Parler is people complaining about not being on
1:10:07
Speaker 2: cooler social media platforms and then Dan Bongino brand building
1:10:12
Speaker 2: and trying to sell you gold coins that say Trump
1:10:15
Speaker 2: on them or something. It's very bad.
1:10:18
Speaker 1: I guess the tech matters.
1:10:19
Speaker 3: If you own the Libs, In the woods, but no
1:10:23
Speaker 3: one hears the own.
1:10:24
Speaker 2: Did it make a sound? Did Charlie Kirk poop his pants? Yeah, no.
1:10:27
Speaker 3: If a lib gets owned in the woods. Jordan, I
1:10:29
Speaker 3: didn't need the grammar correction. I didn't need a, I
1:10:31
Speaker 3: wasn't looking for, I wasn't looking for notes. I hope
1:10:33
Speaker 3: there's music.
1:10:34
Speaker 1: Is this part going out?
1:10:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I want it out.
1:10:37
Speaker 1: I thought we were done five minutes ago.
1:10:38
Speaker 2: Leave it in.
1:10:43
Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
1:10:46
Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller.
1:10:50
Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
1:10:53
Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
1:10:57
Speaker 1: Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
1:11:00
Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
1:11:04
Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
1:11:07
Speaker 1: every week.