Latest / Pre-Sales Pathways / Richard Barrett, Senior Copilot Solutions Engineer at Microsoft

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Richard Barrett, Senior Copilot Solutions Engineer at Microsoft · Pre-Sales Pathways

• Chris: Hey Rich, good to see you. Thanks for joining us on the show. Richard: Yeah, no worries. Good to see you, Chris. Chris: Yeah, likewise. Rich, I was looking at your CV recently. I saw you're coming up to nine years at Microsoft and it's sort of crazy how much has changed in that time. We had the pandemic, everyone shifting to remote or distributed working. More recently, obviously AI has been the big thing, but Microsoft's been pretty central to both those shifts. must be a really interesting place to work. Richard: Yeah, I feel very lucky where I work. I feel I get to work with you know, some of the most exciting technology in the world, some of the cleverest people. And, you know, we'll get onto my career and I feel that, you know, I've I I've developed up to this point. But yeah, it's been an exciting place to be for, you know, two pretty fundamental shifts in in technology, right? Let's be honest. The pandemic and working from home. And then AI everywhere. I mean, I think we'll look back in twenty, thirty years and be wow, they were they they they were pretty big changes. Chris: Absolutely. So you mentioned your overall career trajectory. One thing that stood out to me is that the technology you work with has been reasonably consistent, starting with SharePoint, then Office 365, more recently with Co-Pilot. But the actual roles that you've done have been quite different. You started, if I understand correctly, in implementation. You managed a team. You've been in sales. Most recently, you've been in pre-sales. So talk us through maybe some of those transitions. What drove those different role changes? Richard: Yeah, sure. I'd love to say there was a grand plan when I graduated that got me to this point, but that'd be a huge, a huge misinterpretation of how I've got to this stage. I won't pretend there was. I guess you know, maybe if I g if I give you a bit of a history that might make sense as as we go through the conversation, right? So I graduated, I I did a degree in electronic engineering. I'd also done like a placement year during that time, and I think maybe whilst I did this this degree, I kind of realised that maybe electronics. particular electronics in the UK wasn't maybe what I wanted to do. So I graduated and I wasn't 100% clear still, but I I joined a graduate program at a big big global SI was at Cap Gemini. I thought that would be interesting because I thought it would give me an opportunity to do a variety, variety of things. And some of them I might like, some of them I might not like, but it would it would kind of help me how it went. So I guess you know I did that and I did a you know a range of things, as you say, implementation, training, testing, I mean a plethora of of of things. And then Towards the end of my time there, I I ended up working in in what they call their information management department. Chris: Okay. Richard: content management, right? Th those sorts of things. And I involved with this thing called SharePoint, which I didn't really know too much about, I'll be truly honest with you. and I quite liked it. and then I guess from there, that's that's kind of been like that thing that's pinned my career all the way through. I like to kind of know what I'm doing, talking about, using, right? That that gives me confidence is as a person. So I think that's probably why, but also I think I've just quite enjoyed it. I've enjoyed the opportunities it's given me. And I think we'll come onto it maybe as as we go through, but it's allowed me to talk to lots of end users, right? And and and other people like that. I I I struggle if I was just talking to IT folks the whole time. And that's no dis no disrespect to everyone who works at IT, but I just quite enjoy talking to actual users of technology. So yeah, I guess that's that's why I can explain a bit more, maybe, but but I think that's probably why I've stuck to that core technology because A, I find it interesting and enjoyable. And B, it's you know, it has been a growth area as well, let's be honest. Chris: Yeah. And so you said you're at Capgemini, you did this grad training scheme, so you got exposed to different types of work and then ultimately gravitate Richard: Yes. Chris: towards this technology. What leads you Richard: Yeah. Chris: then from a global SI massive company like Capgemini to your next move, which is like the totally opposite end of the spectrum? Richard: Yeah, that's that's a good question. So obviously I work for, you know, Captain and I, one of the biggest Global SIs in the market, and it was a great graduate program, right? I learned a lot, met some great people, some people I know today. you know, I'd highly recommend that to anyone who gets opportunity starting out to to do that sort of thing. I think then I maybe realized that I quite like this particular era of technology. and maybe it was time for something different, right? And I didn't I'll be honest, this is this always sounds amusing when I tell the story. And then I got time for my haircut when I had more hair back in the day, in a in a local barber, reading a local newspaper. and there was a picture of my local MP, Theresa May, you may remember her as as Prime Minister. She wasn't at that time, opening like a local consultancy that that basically worked in Chairpoint. And I thought, sounds interesting, it's down the road from me. and I sent an unsolicited email basically being like, Hey, this is me, this is what I've done. wondered if you have any opportunities. and then yeah, you know, through various conversations over a period of time, I I got the opportunity. So yeah, I went from I forget how big Cap German I was at the time to a company of maybe thirty, forty people, but obviously a very specialised company in in what they did. Chris: Yeah. And what was that move like? mean, yeah, totally different type of company. Richard: Yeah, totally different. I think maybe the pace was quicker, I'll be honest with you. but I think I like that. I think I'm naturally someone who likes to get on with things rather than maybe, you know. Yeah, I think I just suited my personality at that at that time. lots of opportunities to learn, I suppose, you know, in a smaller organization, there's there's less layers of of people. I'm not gonna say less support, that's that's I think that's that that would be the the wrong thing to say. But maybe less layers of people. So you have to be a bit more flexible and take on more things. But it probably got me to get You know, deeper in the implementation, deeper in that consultancy side and like deeper working with customers, maybe more responsibility for kind of advising and suggesting, suggesting where things go. but I wouldn't say less, I want to be really careful. I'm not saying a smaller company means less support. I think in some ways a smaller company's gonna give you more support because you get that sort of camaraderie of everyone kind of mucking in. so when I yeah, maybe less roles, but I would certainly wouldn't say less support for someone who's making that Chris: Yeah, yeah. Richard: jump from big to small. Chris: Yeah, and the support is just going to be less formalized as well, I guess, in terms of it's not Richard: Yes, yes. Chris: learning and development programs like you'll get a big company. Richard: Yeah. So yeah, did that for a while. yeah, I was working very much in a consultancy role, so delivery, not pre-sales. I think obviously in a small company, if you're in a consultancy type role, you naturally end up doing pre-sales a little bit because, you know, you you sell your next piece of work by being good at your piece of work and and suggesting, right? I think that's just life. So probably where I got my first experience of the kind of the pre-sale side of things, and then you know, the company I work for got acquired, got a little bit bigger. And then actually at that stage I went into a more sales role rather than pre sales, which maybe we can come on to. but Chris: Yeah. Richard: yeah, that's that was the journey. Chris: Yeah. And very timely actually, because you mentioned that pivot after the acquisition from consulting or implementation into sales. That's one thing that I think is top of mind for a lot of listeners of this show and solutions engineers or pre-sales professionals at the moment as sort of the lines begin to blur a bit and they, you know, even historically may have considered a move into an account executive or a sales role. So what, yeah, what drove that motivation for you and what did that feel like? What was different? Richard: Again, I think it was an opportunity that appeared rather than an idea. I I should have said, I remember I was on my graduate programme and you do lots of different opportunities different roles in a graduate program, which I think is one of the benefits of them. And someone super senior at work at the time sort of said to me, Rich, keep jumping in when you get opportunities. And I reflect on Chris: Okay. Richard: that, you know, years and years later. That if an opportunity comes, why not jump in and have a go? you know, like and I think that's something I've kind of reflected on. And it doesn't mean blindly jumping in, it doesn't mean doing things you shouldn't be doing. But it means if an opportunity pops up, even if it's not what you thought it was, having a go. And I guess as the company got acquired by a by a slightly larger organization, and a few more roles appeared, there was an opportunity to do a more pure sales role around around the products. And that's something that I moved into. you know, I think I I I look back and was it a useful thing to do? Like a hundred percent. Like the skills I learned there, I take with me like to this day forward. You know, if you are I say to anyone I work with who's an SC, like if you've got a meeting with a customer, that's an opportunity, right? And the customers open the door to talk to you, we shouldn't waste that opportunity, right? And if that means you you join a meeting or you go you go to visit someone and it's not what you thought it was, okay. Well let's pivot and let's see what the customer wants to get out of it because that they're listening and you've got that chance. And I think maybe doing pure sales and and that side of things really give me that appreciation. and as I say, like I I don't look at it and say it was a bad decision. That that's not. I don't want that's not what I would say. It showed me I didn't maybe want to do that full time. But actually what I learned was immensely powerful, was an exciting time. obviously we worked together at that stage as well, Chris. and yeah, it it it it taught me skills that as an SE I kind of rely on to this day. And I think if someone is an SE or they're thinking about becoming an SE and they've done their sales role, like it gives you an opportunity. And and and people can go both ways. So I think that's I think there's there's no As lines blow a little bit as well, right? There's there's no high and fast rule that you should not cross cross paths, let's put it that way, because the right thing to do when the opportunity pops up, why not go for it? Chris: Yeah, interestingly, outside of the podcast, I was having a chat to someone recently been in pre-sales for a long time, but also held a number for a while. And I asked their opinion on it and they said, it's one of those things that every SE just needs to get out of their system at some point. You know, couldn't like be hypothetical about it for as long as you like, but actually maybe the easiest thing is just try it for a while and see if you like it. Richard: Exactly. And I think, you know, if you like it, great. If you don't like it, also great. But the things it will teach you will be immensely useful as a you know, as an S E, right? So I think yeah, get it out of your system. I like that. I like that I like that analogy. But it's a good point, right? I certainly wouldn't wouldn't be I wouldn't steer away from it, I wouldn't be away from it. And I think for me, doing it with a product set that I understood probably helped as well because I you know, I I felt comfortable that I knew what I was talking about, which I think, you know, was was important to me. I think if I'd have done a sales role on a something I didn't know, you know, I think I'd have struggled more with the opportunity. But I think knowing having the confidence of what I was talking about probably gave me a bit more success in that in that opportunity. Chris: Yeah, interesting. So you started out in more technical roles, I guess, on the consulting side of things in implementation. You then did the commercial side. What was it that led you to landing in pre-sales and sort of blending those two? Richard: Yeah, I guess I guess both of them maybe showed me like where I wanted to be, if that makes sense. So like I like technology, always have done, not gonna lie. I I like the sales process and like helping people and understanding a problem and and coming to a solution. And maybe by doing like both sides of it, it's like hang on, there's an opportunity here to go and do like a more pre-sales and like a more SE role and and kind of you know be involved in the sales process absolutely and use what I've learned. also know the products and use what I've learnt in consulting and bring those two things together. So I think probably it was a like an amalgamation of the things I've done before led me to a realisation that actually for me, that is the plate is the sweet spot where I like to I like to work. Chris: Yeah, nice, offers the balance. Richard: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's a balance. And I think the fact I've done the fact I've done delivery, so to speak, and I've done sales, pure sales, I think gives me a real grasp of the in of the entire area as if that makes if if that as well. And I think having done it means I can talk with confidence. I think we'll come on to like current roles and what I think makes a good SE. But I think having a understanding of the people who are implementing the things we are talking to them about and selling them is a really powerful thing. For me, I think that gives me confidence in the way that I talk to them. Chris: Yeah, definitely. That again is another hot topic at the moment. think with AI and the shift to consumption based pricing, I'm definitely seeing more of a blurring between pre and post sales and finding SEs that actually have that mix and can appreciate what needs to be done on the other side to get it implemented is increasingly sought after skill. Richard: Yeah, I mean, you know, you probably see more of the market than I do. but I don't dispute don't dispute that. And I I just think it's important, right? I think it shows that you get it, right? That a product's great, a service is great, a solution's great, but if it's not put in and implemented or launched, it's you know, let's go for the old acronym of Shellquare, right? It's it's where things get left. So I think that's that understanding of that side is really important. As you say, with with consumption with consumption pricing and AI and what's happening in the market, I can see why that's becoming more and more important by the by the day. Chris: Yeah. So fast forward to today, you're now at Microsoft and you're in, do I understand correctly? It's a sort of like a specialist overlay role. So you'll be working alongside a more of in a core account team that manages the relationship with the customer, like help help the audience, particularly those that maybe have only worked at startups or scale up smaller organizations, just understand overall how that's structured. And in particular, I think it'd be interested in how's a specialist overlay role different to a role where you're the only se on an account. Richard: So I guess I've worked in a kind of similar structure at a number of organizations, but you know how how it works now, you know, there is there is a core account team that look after the customer, right? I think that's you know, quite important in lots of organizations. And then there are kind of organized you know parts of the business like myself who come in and have you know responsible for specific products, services, solutions who kind of come in and just talk about that area and and how it all ties together. So I think that's probably not massively unique to any kind of large organization. As I say, I've I've worked at other organizations as well, even if I think right back to Cat Gemini, it's where I started in my graduate program, it's how it's how it worked there as well. So I think it's probably just a a a structure of large organizations. But yeah, it's different because obviously, you know, you've got someone who owns the day-to-day relationship and all of the offerings of the customer, and then you've got people coming in like myself to talk about specific areas and specific products and specific solutions. So yeah, you know, if you're coming from an organiz an organization where you haven't done that, I think it's important that you've got to There's there's more personalities at play, you've got understand those kind of side of things. You've got to understand that you've got you know, we there's a lot happening in the world, right, with AI. You know, I've never it's never been a time when my family asks me about things that I talk to customers about because we all hear about AI and the news. There's lots of different options and lots of different products and services, and Microsoft's a big company like like lots of others are. So I think you've got that balance of understanding. what's the conversation we're having at the moment and how we're helping the customer move forward and not just confusing them with tons and tons of different conversations that don't lead to anything if that if that makes sense. So I think my advice in someone moving from a small to a large organization would be just that appreciation that there there may be a broad set of services and that that the customer may be interested in. And it's just making sure that you don't confuse them. I think it is possible to to to do that else. Chris: Yeah, makes sense. And for someone who enjoys like you sort of a particular set of technology going deep on a particular technology, the specialist role really gives you the opportunity to do that. Richard: Yeah, exactly. I mean I you know, I I can I can really understand my area and what what I know about and I can put it in terms that make sense for the customers that I that that that I work with without having to spread myself like super thin and know it know every technology and under the sun. so yeah, no different people have different personalities. For me, I'm comfortable knowing one area, what it does, what the value prop is, how it helps someone move forward. And this role really gives you the opportunity to do that because I can focus just in that area particularly. Chris: sense. One of my own personal observations when Slack was acquired by Salesforce, that was my first exposure to this sort of setup of, know, in Salesforce terminology, it was a core account team, and then you had specialist sellers. One of the things Richard: Yeah. Chris: that was new to me and a bit of a surprise to some of the other Slack sellers, both AEs and SEs was that there's a sort of a new dynamic at play in that you don't, because you don't own the relationship with the customer, you actually have to do a degree of selling internally. You sort of need to persuade the account team that your product is worth a customer's time. And so that's one thing that I think is maybe just a bit of a surprise to people who haven't experienced that model is there's a of a slightly different dynamic than when you're just directly customer facing the whole time. Richard: Yeah, I think, you know, depending on how companies are structured, you'll get more or less of that required. You know, I think I'm quite lucky where I am that I think, you know, things think you know, I don't feel I don't feel I have to do c convincing people, maybe internally. I don't think don't think that's part of the role. But I do think you are absolutely correct. You know, there are You need to work out when we're taking it, how we're taking it. Is there another conversation going on with that person about something else? And we don't want to confuse them by bringing something else in at this stage, et cetera, et cetera. so yes, I I absolutely agree. I I guess, you know, maybe yours was slightly different because the the more kind of start-up organization was acquired by the large organization, which probably brings in a slightly different dynamic. But yeah, I I get that. And I I think know, I guess every company's gonna be slightly different, but it's definitely definitely something to consider. You know, it's not like if I think back to when I worked at smaller organizations, you know, you were the conversation with the customer. So That was that was what it was. You knew what else was going on. There's definitely the understanding of the the the broader, the broader set. And particularly, you know, you mentioned when you worked at Salesforce, obviously I work at currently at Microsoft, an organization that has a wide variety of products and services, right? That that that can support a customer. there can be lots of different things going on that you are you're not aware on. That's why it's really important to be aligned with that core account team. Chris: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I just think like very tangibly an example from Salesforce was like the account planning process. know, suddenly that was something that the account team used to do in a single room on their own, you know, quite easily. And then suddenly it's you're coordinating lots of different people coming together. So I think it's that coordination piece is right. Making sure that everyone's rowing in the right direction. And like I said, being mindful of existing conversations or threads of conversations going on with the customer. Richard: Yeah, exactly. And I think I think if I think back actually, I mentioned that when I first did my sales rollers because the company I worked for was acquired by a larger organization. That actually Chris: Mm-hmm. Richard: brought two two different technologies together. So actually, probably I learned that quite early on in my career that there might be one conversation around, you know, I was involved in Office 365. At the time, the company also had Dynamics 365 on. So again, you know, there was probably already that, well, actually, we're talking about this and it might be a similar person. Let's not confuse them. So as you ask that question, like looking back, maybe I had that. Whilst it wasn't in such a large, large organisation, maybe I did actually or I did have that, you know, level of learning early on in my career, given the way that two companies came together and as you were talking, that gave me an idea. Chris: Yeah, interesting. So looking at the role as it is now and in more recent times how AI is reshaping it. I'd really love some examples maybe of how you're using AI in the role day to day or how you see it already change things. Richard: Yeah, I it sounds like two ways. I maybe answer how I'm using it and like how I see it changing. I think I think what is changing is it's it's easier and easier by the day for customers to do research into products, offerings, case studies, etc. So, you know, as an SE, you're probably not turning up to answer those basic questions about the product or service that you're offering, because the customers have probably done that research themselves. There's still an you still need to understand it, right? Of course you do, but I think that the customers can do that, right? And they'll certainly do the the first part of it. I think that's one thing that's definitely changing. And probably has changed, you know, if I reflect over my career, probably one of the things that's changed most. Getting access to information is easier, and also distilling that information is is is is is easier than it was. I guess the other thing is though, is the kind of use of AI maybe to speed up the the the process. So you know I think as an SE, you're often building demos or maybe like demos, proof of concepts, pilots, whatever you want to call them. and you know, no one wants to rock up and and show a demo of a pharmaceutical demo to a retail customer or show a healthcare customer a, you know, a an FSI demo. I think maybe, and we've all for years, I'm sure, as SEs, tried our best to get around that with kind of how we work on demo environments, etc. And Think I saw you actually posted the other day something about an organization that renamed the entities in a CRM system to make them look more customer-facing on LinkedIn, right? So we've all done this for time, but it's taken time, right? Logging in, different users, different personas, creating documents. Like AI's ability to create content like is is huge, right? And without getting into tools and products, there's loads on the market. I think that's one of the biggest things. Like you need to plan the demo, you need to understand what what you're trying to show the customer. That that that that skill set for me is still the SE piece. But then that Now go and create me five users, and this user's done this, and we've got this demo piece of content here. And I think that's probably the bit that's changed most because you can do that quickly now with with various tools. So I think maybe two ways AIs change. One, certainly customers can come more informed. and two, certainly that that speed of preparation of pilots, demos, POCs, whatever you want to call it, is much, much faster. and frankly, it's doing the bit, you know, it's it's doing that bit that. It's not really the great S E skill, it's it's a pretty manual skill, it's the bit it's replacing, I say. Chris: Yeah, you're giving me flashbacks, Richard, to all the times I had incognito tabs open, logged in as different personas, pasting content in. So I don't think anyone's complaining Richard: Yeah. I I d I don't think Chris: that's off their deck. Richard: no one's complaining that's gone, have they? but as the other thing, the skill set here is knowing, right? Like that y it's still knowing what you want to show, how you want to show it. So it's it's it's the it's the clicks it's it's doing. The skill for me is still thinking, what am I trying to show? What is the challenge? How am I best gonna show that? I think that's still a skill set that yes, AI can help, of course it can. But I think someone who understands the nuances, what works, what doesn't work, that's where the real skill comes in. And then yeah, if the demo can be prepped by AI. We've all saved a load of time and a load of less incognito browsers. Chris: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Actually, something I've written about a fair number of times now is I've sat through quite a reviews historically. And particularly when it's like a presentation or a demo that's going to the customer and you're doing an internal dry run, almost every time my feedback is about cutting content, you're very rarely saying, actually you should add more stuff in. Like a big part of our job, like you said, as SES is knowing, being selective around what to show. And I feel that's the risk with AI is firstly, it's verbose. Richard: Yep. Chris: Right, it's like by default does the opposite. Then secondly, when it's so easy to create new stuff in these demos, it's easy to get caught up in that and run away with something and end up with something that's way too bloated. Richard: Yeah, I think that's something I've always considered when you're showing someone a product or doing a demo or anything. It's like you you have this tendency, particularly when I mean at early days, to to show every cool thing and like there's this really amazing feature over here I want to show you. But actually if if that's not the thing that lands the message, why are we showing it? And showing too much might confuse it. And that's why I said I think the skill set here is still knowing what you want to demo, getting AI to do the dummy work, but not telling it, hey AI, build me a demo of this thing to show this customer because you as you say, it'll be huge, it'll be long. There'll be things that will just confuse the customer. So I think actually that's where it's really that's where the skill set of a great SE comes in is knowing what you want to show and then it just getting it to do some of that grunt work. Yeah. I mean we've all seen demos that show things that aren't necessary are far too long and not gonna not gonna move the move move move things forward. Chris: Yeah. And so we talked about a couple of ways how AI is already reshaping the role. Any thoughts on what might come next or what AI changes in the future? Richard: Yeah. I always find that's an interesting question. People say to me what's happening next in AI. And I always kind of respond like to people saying, like, if anyone tells you they know what's happening in three years, then you know, maybe go and get them to buy a lottery ticket for you because I'm not sure many people know that. I think it's probably more the same, right? I think I think we're definitely gonna see that buyer understanding grow. I think there's also like I'm starting to see maybe people like even maybe like pilots of POCs changing because if we can build something quickly, so can a customer. Right? So all this technology that we're all talking about is widely available. We see people using it all day, every day. So I think there's definitely that that piece there, like actually again it's the skill set of what what am I trying to show that's gonna make that penny drop or or or solve that business problem or make you want to take this leap. And actually being able to just produce a great great demo is is maybe not the thing that matters most. So yeah, how's it going change? I I I certainly the things we are talking about will carry on. Yes. But I think the real skill set is that person who can think about how all this comes together and how I can show an answer to a business problem. If AI helps me do that, that's great. But yeah, we we could we could get into a world of a lot of long AI demos that just switch customers off and make them go elsewhere. Right. very easily could do that. Chris: It's interesting you mentioned the piece around pilots. Definitely my experience moving to Glean from Salesforce Glean being a sort of AI native company. left it over a year ago now, but you know, customers really weren't happy with just a demo. They almost always wanted to see their data in the system, you know, effectively like a production pilot. And one of the things that we always had to be very cognizant of is that, you know, back then vibe coding was nowhere near where it is now. Customers often wanted to build custom connectors, that sort of thing. It was really about trying to de-scope that from pilots. And I do wonder now, as I said, I left the company over a year ago, but I wonder whether that approach would change slightly where it's like so much easier potentially to make these, not like really significant modifications to the core product, but certainly within the context of a pilot, being able to show that you could connect to a certain data source or something like that just seems a lot more feasible now than it was even a year ago. Richard: Yeah, that's an interesting angle actually. I think about that, you know, like like doing a demo and say, it's all me like synthetic data, it's all me kind of fake data. But actually, do you know what? If there's an MCP server that we can tap into to grab some of that data from, like why not bring it in? And if I kind of reflect, that probably is kind of changing. So yeah, I don't really consider that as an angle or as a specific point, if I'm honest. But yeah, I I think you're right. I think the maybe what may maybe the bar of a or maybe maybe a pilot is moving, actually. And a customer can themselves do that initial piece that's that's all synthetic and not connected. So actually when we get involved, maybe it is for something that's a little bit cleverer, still using pretty much open standards to connect. yeah, it's a good it's a good good reflection. It's it's hard to answer without getting into customer specifics, but I do but I but yeah, I s I see that. I I definitely get that angle and now now you raise it, I I think you're right. that it's much easier to connect to data than it was six months ago, certainly than it was Chris: Yeah. Richard: two years ago. Chris: Yeah. And AI is just so data dependent, right? I think that's part of what drives it is that customers just want to see it working. Rich, I'm curious then looking back over your whole career and you've had success in all kinds of companies, like we said, know, hyperscalers, GSIs, and then the opposite end of the spectrum, much smaller organizations and quite different roles. What do you think has driven that success? Is there anything perhaps a bit unexpected or unusual that you would cite? Richard: Yeah, look, I think for me, like that one technology stack's been important. But I d I don't I don't think that's a thing. I think that's just me as a person. It's a personality thing. I've I feel comfortable when I know what I'm talking about and the depth of the products that's worked for me. I think for me, maybe particularly in the early part of your career, like just being prepared to do some slightly different things to help you get to that point is important. I think sometimes, you know, like it's just no discredit, but like maybe at 21 coming out of uni and saying, This is what I want to do. I admire people who have that views view, but I certainly wasn't in that in that position. So maybe, particularly in the early days, take opportunities, you know, find companies that will let you do different things. That might be by being on a graduate program, might be by being working for a small company, so you can have to lean in and do different things. It might be that you do contracting and jump up. Like there's lots of ways to do it. But I think particularly in those early days, try sit, try things out. Like try things out and learn. You might find the thing that's for you, but if not, you'll take some things forward, right? And use them going forward. So you know, for me, I I I take forward every day that if I'm talking to a customer, that's an opportunity I've been given to have a conversation with them. And we should never, ever, ever you know, treat that as as de facto, right? You know, if someone's prepared to listen to you, let's make it, let's make it worth worthwhile. So yeah, I think for me, early days, try it out, do different things. and also I think given the speed that the world is changing, like if anyone says, I know what the SE row will be in five years' time. maybe you know 10, 20 years time. Nah, I I'm I struggle to see anyone being able to do that with with with a lot of guarantee. So given we don't know the full shape of the roles in in years to come, it probably means doing a slightly different thing and being a bit more rounded is is an imp is an important thing going going forward. I think the other maybe one piece of maybe advice I I'd give, but maybe you didn't ask the question, but I'll I'll play it anyway, is that I don't think an SE's role, this is my opinion now, I don't think an SE's job is to know every button in a product. and train some people on a demo. I see people fall into that throughout my whole career. that our job is to understand someone's problem and show how what we've got is helpful time, effort, money, cost, whatever they're trying to save. so that'll probably be the other thing I'd say. Like don't don't feel that as an S E, right, the first thing I'm going to go and do is learn every button in the product. I think that's a waste of time in my humble opinion. learn the value, learn the key things and learn how to understand the customer's problem. and how you can present a solution to that problem. Yeah. Chris: Absolutely. And the bit around every widget within the product is the bit that AI already does really well today, right? So if you're just a walking, talking version of the help center, that's not a great place to be. Richard: Good point. Yeah. What does this button do? You can probably get an answer to that pretty quickly. how does all this fit together to solve my business problem? Much more valuable, more viable piece. There's lots of new ones there. There's lots of background knowledge that you gain over years or like tacit knowledge that you can bring in and that that that can really help. So yeah. walking talking help desk. I've not heard it called that, but yeah, that's a good point. No one no one wants to be that person, let's be honest. Chris: I really love the point that you made around specialization and ultimately, even though you are specialized now, actually having that sort of time lens on it and thinking particularly earlier in your career. I remember that my first job other than doing some heavy lifting of safes very briefly was actually at Creative SharePoint where you and I met and I was in a marketing role and I really enjoyed aspects of that. But I remember questioning myself at some point and thinking what are the chances that the first job you've chosen to do straight out of university is going to be the one that's the perfect fit, right? So it's thinking about what are the aspects of that? role that I liked, how can I sort of recalibrate and find something that will draw me even closer to the bits that I did enjoy and maybe drop some of the bits that weren't so exciting. Richard: Good point. And you know, let's go back now. Michael, given your your current current offering Chris, and those marketing skills are probably useful things to reflect back on, you know, years in the future. I won't give away how old you are. But yeah, I think yeah, you're right, right? And but going back to that bit, we don't, you know, you can graduate and you might have the perfect idea of what you're gonna do. And even if you do have, that's great, but it might change. so for me, like the graduate program at Cap was like super exciting because I did. Honestly, I did everything from workshop facilitation, like to testing software, to writing requirements, to training in users, to migrating data. and each one of those things helped me understand something in the sort of IT world. And each one of those things I can look back on today and go, okay, cool, that helped there, that helped there, and that shape this and that sort of d I don't want to do that, but I respect the people who are doing it and what they're you know, what their drivers are, what they're trying to do for the customer. And I think that really helps Chris: Yeah. Richard: as well. Chris: Amazing. Rich, thank you so much. been such an interesting conversation. Is there anything else that you wanted to share with the audience? Richard: that's a good question. I I'm I'm not I'm not sure there is. I think if you know if if I go back to to my original point, I think I'd just you know go back to the advice I was given early on was keep jumping in. That doesn't mean doing things without thinking about it, but if you get an opportunity, jump in. You'll learn something from the opportunity. If it's not for you, you can take that learning and do something else. If it is for you, you can build on that and move forward. So yeah, I won't embarrass the person who gave me that in case he hears this podcast. But yeah, probably the best piece of advice I've ever been given. and I remember that. I remember why I was working with him when I was at Cat Gemini on on a Friday afternoon. I was asked Rich, we've got this thing next week. Do you want to project manage this this big workshop? Okay, I've not done that before. But yeah, I mean, why not? And I remember did it and I had support, right? You know, in a big company you you get support and guidance. I've got support and guidance. And it was in the debrief after that. He's like, Look, you know, someone was off sick, you jumped in, we gave the opportunity because we thought you could do it with support, you did it, we got a great outcome. And I think, yeah, that that was a real reflection for me. So that'd be the one thing I would I would I would leave with, maybe. Chris: perfect note to end on. Richard, thanks so much for taking the time. Richard: Bye sure.