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The Man Saddam Hussein Kissed · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:01
  Hi everyone to another episode of the Substack Writers Salon
• 0:08
  Thank you so much Amjad
• 0:10
  for joining me today and I see people are already joining here
• 0:14
  we have Gordon
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hensley,
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Katie,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: hi Kathy Dawood is here,
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: wow everyone is here,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: this is great
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Alright,
• 0:22
  so I have with me today is Amjad Tadros and Amjad Tadros is a
• 0:28
  four-time Emmy Award
• 0:29
  winning investigative journalist who served as CBS News Middle
• 0:34
  East producer from
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: 1990 to 2023
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Managing Regional Coverage of Transformative Events,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: including Iraq War,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: the September 11th Hijackers Backstories,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: the Arab Spring,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: and serious chemical attacks.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's the author of the new memoir, The Fixer, and he is here with me
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Amjad.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, Amjad, thank you for joining me.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, congrats on joining Substack.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're brand new here.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm happy to connect with you and for the audience as well,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: make sure to follow Amjad as well.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: He recently joined Substack.
• 1:12
  So Amjad,
• 1:14
  I think today I want to mostly talk about your new memoir,
• 1:17
  which is The Fixer.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And before we get into the weeds,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: For those who don't know, what exactly is a fixer?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: What does a fixer do?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: How did this term come about?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: when I joined CBS News back in 1991,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what is the job,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: and they told me it's a job to be a fixer,
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: and I had no idea what a fixer means.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: It turns out that a fixer is somebody who does everything,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: from making tea and coffee to delivery tape to book airlines,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: hotels.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Find interview subjects You know,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: look after security So,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: there's no description for the world,
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  basically But your job is just to be the link between the
• 2:07
  foreign correspondence
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: what's happening on the ground So
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't really know,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't think there is a description for the word fixer,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: even when you try to translate it in Arabic,
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: we're still looking for a name for that.
• 2:21
  But it was a name that was,
• 2:22
  I think,
• 2:22
  invented by foreign and American journalists.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Funny enough,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: at some point my Arab colleagues were complaining and saying,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: we cannot be called fixers because this is the remaining term.
• 2:36
  So at that time CBS issued a memo and they said that they don't
• 2:40
  call those fixers,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: you have to call them producers.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we became known as producers and my last job at CBS,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: my contract was written,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was senior Middle East producer.
• 2:53
  But when I wrote the book,
• 2:55
  I realized that I never wanted to be a producer in my life.
• 2:58
  I was happy to be a fixer because I always tried to be the best
• 3:01
  fixer in the business.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I called the book The Fixer.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's nice.
• 3:06
  So I was actually lucky to read an earlier version of the book
• 3:10
  and I really enjoyed it.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there is...
• 3:13
  I think one of the things that probably everyone will remember
• 3:16
  was when you
• 3:17
  survived the US missile attack in Baghdad in 1993 and then the
• 3:23
  one and only Saddam
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hussein walked into your hospital room
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  SPEAKER_00: And if I remember correctly,
• 3:30
  he actually kissed you on the cheek And can you take us a bit
• 3:36
  into that moment And
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  SPEAKER_00: how this image of you,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Saddam,
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  at the hospital kind of changed the way you work Because I
• 3:44
  understand it kind of
• 3:46
  protected you somehow When you had a picture of you taken with
• 3:50
  Saddam If you can
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  SPEAKER_00: just take us to that moment
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  Well again it was done by accident it was in 1993 and actually
• 3:57
  January 17th and at
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  SPEAKER_01: that time you know Saddam
• 4:03
  Iraq was celebrating the second anniversary of the Mother of
• 4:06
  All Battles which was
• 4:07
  the first Gulf War and Saddam gave a speech and at that time I
• 4:12
  stayed at the hotel
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  to watch the speech and I fell asleep during the speech and to
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  be woken up by a
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  huge explosion which turns out to be an American cruise missile
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  that hit the hotel
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  SPEAKER_01: garden
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: outside my room And then,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I looked at myself And I was covered in blood Because,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: all the glass fell on me And I was injured Funny enough,
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  I was on my own in the hotel Because my crew was somewhere else
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  And I just thought
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  I was going to die Because there was nobody there And then I
• 4:45
  realized I needed to
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  SPEAKER_01: do something about it So I rolled myself out of the room
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  and then some people helped me down the stairs so we went all
• 4:52
  the way eight floors
• 4:54
  down and then I was like at that time I realized this wasn't
• 4:57
  that bad I had a piece
• 4:59
  of glass in my leg and but they insisted I should be taken to
• 5:03
  the hospital so
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  before I was put in a little bus and was driven to a hospital
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  and there you know
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  SPEAKER_01: some doctors came to see what's wrong with me
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  and they stitched me up and nobody knew I was there because I'm
• 5:18
  sure my crew is
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  going to come back to the hotel and see the room full of blood
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  and they will think
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm dead because I wasn't there.
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  and in the process also I had to take off my pants so I was
• 5:30
  like wearing a t-shirt
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  my underpants and one sock and then I was just paying the
• 5:37
  hospital staff to take me
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  back to the hotel and of course there was an air raid happening
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  it was mayhem
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  everywhere and before I knew it again they put me in a
• 5:45
  wheelchair and they pushed
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  me inside the hospital as opposed to the vault at that time
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  they put us in a war
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  SPEAKER_01: and they kind of locked us up
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  and a few minutes later some doctors came in and they were
• 5:58
  totally like terrified
• 6:00
  so they literally threw us off the beds they put new bed sheets
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  they put new
• 6:04
  bandages on us and somebody came in with these like charts that
• 6:07
  they put on top of
• 6:09
  the beds and again you know I was again I was shocked because
• 6:14
  you know I was
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: survived an attack
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  and then the door of the world opens and I could see lots of
• 6:20
  lights and you know
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: cameras and so on and Saddam Hussein was
• 6:25
  And that was,
• 6:26
  again,
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  another shocking moment,
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  you know,
• 6:30
  for what happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I had to, I didn't know what to do, actually.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then Saddam stopped at one bed before me.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I had, like, a few minutes to figure it out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized I needed to, like, give a statement.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I thought I would give,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: a personal statement rather than a political statement because,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're expected to say something.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, Saddam approached my bed.
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  and I basically decided to thank him for the humanitarian
• 6:59
  gesture to come and visit
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  me in the hospital and I asked him for a kiss and Saddam leaned
• 7:04
  to my bed and
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  there's a picture of me and Saddam I was in bed with my t-shirt
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  with Saddam you
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  know and we had a kiss you know like an Arab way of kissing and
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  then Saddam goes
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  SPEAKER_01: the whole thing was like less than two or three nights
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  SPEAKER_01: But what happened was,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: Iraqi TV and Iraqi news agency took a picture of me and Sattab and Beth.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I became,
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  SPEAKER_01: before I knew it,
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  SPEAKER_01: I became a hero of the people because everybody in Iraq was,
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  SPEAKER_01: wow,
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  SPEAKER_01: you survived the attack.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that picture, which I saved at that time on my pilot,
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  Allowed Me To Work In Iraq For A Long Time Because After That
• 7:43
  Every Year Saddam
• 7:44
  Used To Send Me A Gift So Every January 17th I Would Get A Gift
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  From Saddam Hussein
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  And People At The Ministry Of Information Back Then Knew That I
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  Was On The Gift
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  List And They Thought They Didn't Know What Was Happening And
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  They Thought That I
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  Was An Important Person And That Allowed Me To Work In Iraq For
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  A Long Time Working
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  SPEAKER_01: For An American News Agency Inside Iraq
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  People were just afraid to deal with me because they all
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  thought I was an important man.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was an important man.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just met Sadda for two minutes and he was sending me a gift every year.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it allowed me to become, you know, the journalist that I was.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
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  I'm actually going to share that image here for people to see
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  it because it's fun.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying the share option here.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But if I... Screen sharing...
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so... Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: This one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, here we go.
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  SPEAKER_00: So for those, if you can see, that is...
• 8:44
  the picture of a young Amjad here with Saddam and you can see
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  Amjad here and you
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  can see Saddam so that's pretty neat okay so I'm gonna stop
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  sharing Amjad and
• 9:00
  correct me if I'm mistaken I read somewhere that you said being
• 9:05
  an Arab if you
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  SPEAKER_00: report anything you'd be accused of being biased
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you still believe that anything you report,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: if you're an Arab,
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  SPEAKER_00: you'll always be accused of being biased?
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  And if you do,
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  how did you navigate that tension over 33 years of reporting?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I didn't say that being an Arab is biased,
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  SPEAKER_01: but,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: me working in the Arab world,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: for a foreign news agency,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're always,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:34
  you're always sitting in the middle because the foreign
• 9:37
  journalists will always
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: look at us as being the locals
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  SPEAKER_01: Bias towards something.
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  And my Arab colleagues and my friends as being an American
• 9:47
  agent because I was like
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: working and getting paid in American money.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was very difficult, you know, just to navigate the two worlds.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so you always had to, you know, be careful to protect your
• 10:00
  Basically your credibility and after 33 years I'm very proud to
• 10:03
  say that I left the
• 10:05
  business with my credibility intact because I always followed
• 10:08
  the rules and I
• 10:10
  always reported the truth or what we thought was the truth and
• 10:14
  tried to be fair and
• 10:16
  accurate all the times so yes it's not an easy task to do but I
• 10:23
  always try that so
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  SPEAKER_01: it is not easy to do it actually yes
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  Do you think international news outlets would view you
• 10:35
  differently if you apply for a job?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give you my personal anecdote.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of funny.
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  SPEAKER_00: I tried to apply for a CNN job recently.
• 10:50
  it was like something I think at the DC office it's just like
• 10:54
  maybe copy I don't
• 10:55
  know what it's like something simple and the woman on the phone
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  she looked at my
• 11:00
  resume and before that I was working for Al Jazeera and she was
• 11:04
  like you know this
• 11:05
  is CNN Natasha this is not Al Jazeera we're objective we're not
• 11:09
  biased so like she
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: immediately assumed from my resume that
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: that I'm going to be biased because one,
• 11:18
  I am of Arab origin and I work for Jazeera and she wanted to
• 11:21
  emphasize that we are
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: objective.
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  SPEAKER_00: So anyway,
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  SPEAKER_00: I got so pissed off and I got so mad and I already had like a master's in
• 11:30
  international journalism from England and I don't think I even
• 11:34
  pursued it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's just the Arab pride.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: But did you ever experience some things different like,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: he's from Jordan,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: he's going to be biased,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: let's not put him to report the news.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't actually,
• 11:47
  but also don't forget that Al Jazeera has a very bad rap in
• 11:50
  American political and
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: media circuits.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: but you always,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:57
  the thing is that you always have to be extra careful when
• 12:00
  you're going to pull
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: something.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because you know it's going to be scrutinized.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so...
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  SPEAKER_00: So you covered a lot of big stories, right?
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  Like the rise of ISIS,
• 12:17
  serious chemical attacks,
• 12:18
  the Arab Spring,
• 12:19
  the Gulf War.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a story that still keeps you up at night?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: do you still have PTSD,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: flashbacks,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: nightmares,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: something that really stayed with you from all the,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: the horror that you saw?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you know, we've seen a lot.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell people like, you know,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: When I used to come back home,
• 12:39
  I would never tell my mother where we have been because she
• 12:41
  would never let me out
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: of the house after that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, because we've been to war zones, we've been to...
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: The most horrible things I have seen, basically, you know, are car bombs.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: The aftermath of car bombs.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is really bad.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's really terrible.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because usually when a car bomb explodes, you know, we show up.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Tynes natashatynes
• 13:20
  Because most of the people who get injured or dead would be
• 13:25
  carried away without their shoes.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when you get there,
• 13:29
  the whole stage would be filled with shoes and it would be
• 13:32
  filled with people
• 13:33
  looking for their relatives and mothers looking for the
• 13:35
  children or the neighbors
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: or something.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people screaming and crying.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a very, very horrible scene actually.
• 13:43
  So that's one of the bad,
• 13:46
  bad things I got to witness a couple of times probably.
• 13:51
  and so that's in terms of horror stuff we did a lot of stories
• 13:58
  and many stories we did
• 14:01
  You know were very interesting but sometimes we had to report
• 14:03
  things that we didn't
• 14:04
  really like talk to people that we didn't really agree with and
• 14:08
  that's sometimes
• 14:09
  it's difficult difficult to do One of the stories that I always
• 14:14
  talk about I was
• 14:15
  part of the team that did the abuse at Abu Ghraib story I don't
• 14:20
  know if you
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: remember that story Yeah of course I do First Army
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I was part of the team.
• 14:26
  I wasn't the one who reported it,
• 14:27
  but I did some filming in Baghdad for that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so sad,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: because that story,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: when it was published,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: was one of the most important stories in probably American television.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: maybe more important than Watergate,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: because it exposed what was happening inside the prison.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't affect America's credibility until today.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately now,
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: you see,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: after that,
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: we started to see when ISIS and the hostages and prisoners,
• 14:58
  they start putting them in orange jumpsuits to emulate
• 15:02
  basically what we have
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: reported in the story in Abu Ghraib.
• 15:06
  Unfortunately,
• 15:07
  many people in the Arab world especially do not know where the
• 15:10
  story came from.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: They are attributed to people like Al Jazeera or other news sources.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it was done by CBS News.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was done at 60 Minutes at that time by Dan Radha.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: the reason we were allowed to do it because,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: nobody's going to stop you from doing such a story.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: But again, what we did, you know, was used in a very, very bad way.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you feel guilty?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you felt that people like Al-Qaeda back then,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there was ISIS back then,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: would use this as a recruiting method,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: like saying,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: look what they do,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: come join us?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was used in a very, very bad way afterwards by a lot of people.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're in that situation,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: how did you make the,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: you or the people working with you,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: how did you make that decision that the story is more important than the
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: repercussion of running the story?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, when do you join the line?
• 16:20
  We didn't have the choice,
• 16:21
  basically,
• 16:21
  because,
• 16:22
  you know,
• 16:22
  we had the story,
• 16:23
  we had to do it.
• 16:24
  But,
• 16:25
  and,
• 16:25
  you know,
• 16:25
  usually,
• 16:26
  you know,
• 16:26
  you're in the middle of the story,
• 16:27
  you just do it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you in the aftermath and the repercussions,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: what I have seen was not very nice.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I see.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you also founded Syria Direct, correct?
• 16:42
  Which is a website,
• 16:44
  especially after the civil war that happened in Syria and the
• 16:48
  repercussions.
• 16:49
  And my understanding that it's still running,
• 16:52
  although you faced some issues with it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to get into that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had a quote with you mentioning something,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: correct me if I'm mistaken,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: that you said something
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: that when you created it,
• 17:06
  you talked about something called idiot-proofing society
• 17:12
  through truth-telling.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: What did you mean by idiot-proofing?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I never said that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to get that.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: No?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I did my introduction.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I founded it.
• 17:31
  Just when the problems start to happen in Syria And it served
• 17:36
  two purposes And
• 17:37
  we're always still confused to which one is more important One
• 17:40
  was reporting the
• 17:41
  news And reporting what's happening in Syria And the second was
• 17:45
  to train Syrian
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: refugees And enable Syrians to tell their own story That's,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in a country like Syria where free press never existed or independent
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: journalism,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: it was really,
• 18:00
  really hard because people think of journalism as writing
• 18:04
  opinion pieces and
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: columns.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what journalism is.
• 18:08
  You just have to report what you see and let other people make
• 18:13
  up their mind.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Our job is never to tell people how to think.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's not us.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's other people.
• 18:21
  And it was very hard And we trained hundreds of Syrian refugees
• 18:28
  And many of them,
• 18:29
  when they came to be trained with us Thought that we were some
• 18:31
  sort of CIA
• 18:32
  operation or something But they still came And many don't
• 18:37
  understand what we do But
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: some,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: very good ones,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:42
  learned And they became professional journalists And as they
• 18:46
  were reporting the
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: news out of Syria Well,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: they were in Jordan at that time
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: at the beginning,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: most of those people that we trained were refugees,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: and by nature,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: those refugees,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: they were government opposition,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: or at least they were not pro-Assad regime.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was hard.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So what we did,
• 19:06
  we brought some foreign reporters or editors to make sure that
• 19:11
  the news we produce
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: is basically not biased,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: just to make it balanced.
• 19:16
  and we did that but things went okay and one day you know the
• 19:19
  guy who was running
• 19:20
  the office called me and said Amjad we have a problem I said
• 19:22
  what he said the staff
• 19:23
  are not very happy with what they're doing why because at that
• 19:26
  time the Assad
• 19:27
  regime you know started to win so I went to the office and I
• 19:31
  told them guys listen
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And at the beginning,
• 19:34
  I know you were happy because they were reporting that their
• 19:36
  position was winning.
• 19:38
  You know,
• 19:38
  I said,
• 19:39
  you know,
• 19:39
  the news has changed,
• 19:40
  but the mission did not.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our job is still we have to report the news the way it is.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot change because of that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the morale in the office started to go down.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think many of them understood at the end that,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: we still have to report the news,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: even if the regime was winning at that time.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And how is it doing now, Syria Direct?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who's running it?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: we have,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:09
  at some point we had to leave Jordan So we moved some of our
• 20:12
  staff to France and
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Germany And now,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:15
  we are in the process of setting up an office back in Damascus
• 20:21
  And trying to get
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: some of our people who are outside back I think,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:26
  now we're probably going to change the mission a little bit And
• 20:28
  go more into...
• 20:32
  We're going to do more training and more building of news
• 20:39
  organization and so on.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's empowerment.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we are in a transitional phase now.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're still reporting, but not as frequently as we used to do.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned training.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Things completely changed when I studied journalism,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: when I practiced journalism,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: when I trained journalists.
• 21:02
  And the reason the change is you have the rise of the fake news
• 21:06
  and AI and how when
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: you train them.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And plus,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: in addition to that,
• 21:13
  we have also the rise of social media where people even
• 21:16
  question the need for
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: journalists as well.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are you still hopeful about the future of journalism?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if yes, how would you tackle all these challenges that's going on?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to tackle them anymore because I'm retired now.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: listen,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell people,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: the ways and means have changed,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: but the mission is still the same.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: The mission has never changed.
• 21:45
  The mission was for us journalists to go out,
• 21:48
  find the truth and report it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: and it's for other people to take it and do whatever they want with it,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: historians,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: politicians,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: whatever.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: But our job is very simple.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: You go out and you tell people what you have seen.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And your credibility is very, very important.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: with the advent of television,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: and social media and mobile phones and now AI and so on,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's becoming more challenging.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: But still, you know, a good story is a good story.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: whether you do it on television,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: on a newspaper,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: or on a mobile phone,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: the story is still more important than the way you see it,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very evident.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: even the social media,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at TikTok,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: you get a lot of videos one after the other,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: but when you get a good story,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to watch it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to flip it.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there is always a need for that Okay,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: now there is a lot of accusation about,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: fake news and so on
• 22:45
  which actually breaks my heart because one of the reasons I
• 22:47
  actually finished the
• 22:48
  book at the end fast when we started being accused of being
• 22:52
  fake news and legacy
• 22:54
  media and so on and I thought it was very unfair for me and for
• 22:57
  all my colleagues
• 22:58
  who worked all over those years and we worked really really
• 23:03
  hard to find the truth
• 23:05
  and report it and some of my colleagues lost their lives in the
• 23:08
  process and for
• 23:09
  somebody to come and accuse us of being fake news I thought it
• 23:12
  was very unfair
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 23:16
  so you mentioned your memoir and so now it's a good time for me
• 23:20
  to pivot and talk a
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: bit about your memoir.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you spent around 30 years telling other people's stories, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now you decided to tell your own story.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: What made you want to do that?
• 23:32
  What was the spark that made you actually write this book about
• 23:37
  your work?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: it was many years ago a friend of mine,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: probably you know her,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Amy Anderson,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: came to me and she said,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: you can't keep those stories for yourself.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You have to write them down.
• 23:46
  and we started you know some experiments to record them and she
• 23:51
  would write them
• 23:52
  and it never happened and then many years later I had another
• 23:59
  guy who came to work
• 23:59
  in my office again told me like it's not fair you have to tell
• 24:03
  those stories you
• 24:04
  have to you know because you're going to forget them and he
• 24:06
  said I was going to
• 24:07
  help you out so what we did you know we opened the Google
• 24:10
  document and they started
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: to type and he was
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Tynes natashatynes
• 24:29
  a thing to do because we had to document what happened
• 24:32
  especially the events that
• 24:33
  happened in Iraq before the 2003 war because I was part of a
• 24:38
  lot of stories about
• 24:39
  how Iraq tried to avoid the war back then which was a story
• 24:43
  that was not reported
• 24:45
  well in the foreign press so I thought that we had to tell that
• 24:48
  story we had to
• 24:49
  tell many other stories as well and so I just kept writing and
• 24:54
  writing and before
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: we knew it we had a book
• 24:57
  of course we had to go through multiple edits to finish it but
• 25:03
  this is what made me
• 25:04
  do it there is a guy in Damascus called Michael Meshaka who was
• 25:12
  in the 1800s he was
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: the US consulate in Beirut
• 25:17
  who actually wrote a book and the book was called because all
• 25:23
  the loved ones wanted
• 25:25
  him to write the book so he did one so I think my book started
• 25:28
  because everybody
• 25:29
  said you have to tell you know you can't keep those stories for
• 25:31
  yourself you have
• 25:32
  to write them but no I mean you know there were more reasons
• 25:36
  than that because I
• 25:36
  thought we had to do it you know somebody we had to document it
• 25:41
  especially now in
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: the time of in the times of AI
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: You wonder,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: because my book,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: after I did it,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I ran a few times on Grok and on ChatGPT and so on.
• 25:51
  And now if you go on these platforms and you ask questions that
• 25:54
  has to do something
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: with the book,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: my book would be used as a reference.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I always tell people,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: if we don't write our own history,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: somebody else is going to come and write it for us,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: and then we're going to complain.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people should do our homework and write it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: What was the hardest part of writing the book?
• 26:16
  Not in terms of the actual writing,
• 26:18
  but in actual remembering the stories.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Was it something that was really hard to write?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hard emotionally?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was very hard.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it was written in bits and pieces and was put together and edited.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't easy.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: It took six years from start to finish.
• 26:40
  I was lucky enough at some point because of the dates as well
• 26:44
  because now you know
• 26:45
  you know actually when I start writing it became like a puzzle
• 26:50
  because things
• 26:50
  started to fit together because at that time when we were doing
• 26:53
  all these stories
• 26:54
  you never realize why the story came before that or what
• 26:57
  happened after here but
• 26:58
  when we start writing you realize you know some of the stories
• 27:01
  were actually done
• 27:03
  not for a purpose but there was a time for them to do and then
• 27:06
  there's somebody
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: another story came after and so on
• 27:09
  because one of the things that I always tell people I don't
• 27:13
  know if I have the
• 27:13
  picture you know I was also in charge of you know doing the CBS
• 27:18
  expenses in Iraq
• 27:19
  for years so between 1998 and 2006 I spent something like 24
• 27:27
  million dollars of
• 27:29
  CBS's news money in Iraq and we used to spend it in cash
• 27:33
  because at that time there
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: were no you know visa cards were not accepted in Iraq
• 27:39
  so I'm trying to find the picture I don't know if I can find it
• 27:41
  anyway so so what I
• 27:43
  did I always had a problem with the CBS News accountants
• 27:46
  because they always had a
• 27:47
  problem so I always saved all the receipts so and I zeroxed
• 27:52
  them because you know
• 27:53
  they never consolidated them together in the hope that at some
• 27:56
  point they're going
• 27:57
  to sort it out and they never did by the way then so I had
• 28:00
  these huge orange files
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: that were stored in my dad's office that were maybe
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, maybe 10 meters long.
• 28:08
  You're talking about a lot of receipts that were all Xeroxed
• 28:12
  and put together in order.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I sat down to write the book,
• 28:17
  those receipts were the best reference in terms of dates
• 28:20
  because receipts have
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: dates.
• 28:22
  So I knew exactly what happened,
• 28:23
  which story was done when at what specific moment.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was very important, you know, to remember which stories we did.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: The problem with the book, again, you know, it's a bit long.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's 130,000 words.
• 28:36
  Usually books are about 90,000 because I thought that every
• 28:40
  single event was very
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: important to be told.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: We had to cut some out.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end, when it was put together, it reads well.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: You could understand what was going on from it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, they are short stories.
• 28:58
  Each story tells a beginning and an end,
• 29:01
  but together they tell a much wider story.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: What was the reaction to the book of
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: What was CBS's reaction?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Did you even have to get their approval to publish it?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't get their approval to publish it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Was that an issue?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was what?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Was that an issue?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because you didn't get their approval?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, CBS has changed a lot.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think anybody even remembers what was happening.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's sad, actually.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Especially at six minutes, we did really, really very important work.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And look what they have done.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: They fired what the people know.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, no.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I also send them copies, you know, to read.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: there were a few issues of some reporters who called me and said,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: that wasn't very accurate and so on.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But again, that was my recollection of things.
• 30:06
  And I never claimed by any chance,
• 30:08
  you know,
• 30:09
  I basically,
• 30:10
  I reported what I have seen.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I tried to keep my opinion out of the writing.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, and this is what I have seen.
• 30:19
  If anybody has a problem with what I have seen,
• 30:20
  it's their problem,
• 30:21
  not mine.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so...
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: and because I tried not to give my opinion.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did not judge anybody.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people who read it, you know, gave it very good reviews.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you know, there are six chapters about Saudi Arabia in the book.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was terrified because I wrote about,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: the whole thing about MBS and how he came to power because,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:40
  we reported this whole thing and we were the first people who
• 30:43
  interviewed actually
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: MBS in Riyadh at that time.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then
• 30:52
  A Saudi friend of mine kept calling me and said,
• 30:54
  Amjad,
• 30:54
  what is the book?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to read it.
• 30:55
  And I was terrified that those people,
• 30:57
  when they read it,
• 30:58
  they're going to be very angry.
• 31:00
  And then I called and said,
• 31:02
  listen,
• 31:03
  I will send you a draft copy and you read it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: But again, this was not done to please the Saudi government.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was done to report what happened.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: He said, fine.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I sent it to him.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 31:16
  it was published in the newspaper there and there was a whole
• 31:19
  page about the book
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: in the Arab News because when they read it,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't taking sides either with the A or B or C,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's a story in the book about Qatar,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: about a friend of mine in Qatar,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: one of the sheikhs,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: one of the cousins of the Emir of Qatar.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I described his diwan, his majlis in Doha.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 31:45
  I saw exactly what was happening in Doha and how those people
• 31:49
  had so much money and
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: so on.
• 31:51
  And then I went back to Doha and I said,
• 31:55
  you know,
• 31:55
  sheikh,
• 31:56
  I have a gift for you.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to give you a book.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I said, listen, this was not done by the Qatar News Agency.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is my collection of things.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what he did?
• 32:06
  He gave it to his son and his son started writing,
• 32:09
  reading about what I said about his father.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he burst out laughing and they loved it.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: They ordered books and started giving them away as gifts.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice.
• 32:18
  So,
• 32:19
  you know,
• 32:20
  again,
• 32:20
  I did not write it to please anybody or make anybody angry.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't there to score points.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just reported what I have seen.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: there is a very interesting scene,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: in many people,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: and you probably know that Natasha,
• 32:35
  in Doha about Sheikh Hamoza and all the conspiracy theories
• 32:38
  that runs around Sheikh
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hamoza and Sheikh Hamad.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was lucky.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were invited and we had lunch.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: inside the house of Sheikh Hamoza and Sheikh Hamad.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: We sat, you know, and they made us lunch, well, they served us lunch.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we could see the interaction between them.
• 32:54
  And how Sheikh Hamad,
• 32:56
  you know,
• 32:56
  talks to her and how she talks to him and how they both ate.
• 33:00
  Sheikh Hamad ate with the knife and fork and Sheikh Hamad ate
• 33:03
  with his hands.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: he actually offered us food and he put,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: at that time they were cooking some sort of pigeons for us or something.
• 33:12
  And,
• 33:12
  you know,
• 33:12
  he actually,
• 33:13
  you know,
• 33:14
  ripped the pigeons apart and each got his own portion.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: in a very Arab, you know, generous way, you know.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he calls her Moza and she calls him Hamad.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy is in love with her.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: He adores her.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And when you tell them,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sheikh Hamza is not part of the conspiracy,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: the only thing that her husband loves her,
• 33:37
  what's the big deal?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: we Arabs,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: we don't like to,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: that's,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: he's the Sheikh and he's the Amir.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but he has a wife and children at the same time.
• 33:46
  I reported these things Because I have seen them So when you
• 33:51
  talk about Sheikh
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hamoza Yes,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sheikh Hamoza Yes,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: she controls her husband Maybe There are a couple What do you expect?
• 33:58
  And she attempted for a lot of money To set up Qatar Foundation
• 34:02
  And look what Qatar
• 34:03
  Foundation is doing It's doing great work She speaks about 8%
• 34:07
  or something Of
• 34:08
  Qatar's oil wealth Which is billions and billions of dollars
• 34:13
  And they're putting it
• 34:13
  to good cause To build their own country And other places too
• 34:17
  So when you talk
• 34:18
  about these things But in a way that's more personal Rather
• 34:22
  than His Excellency the
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Amir This is particularly what it is
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: so if you want to go back in time,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 34:32
  and want to give yourself a piece of advice before you started
• 34:35
  writing The Fixer,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: what would it be?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do it.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be very careful.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Everything has to be weighed.
• 35:12
  You have to make sure that,
• 35:13
  you know,
• 35:13
  the ideas are accurate,
• 35:15
  the names are spelled correctly.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: you cannot mess around with these things because,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: people are going to read and you're going to be held responsible.
• 35:23
  Fortunately,
• 35:24
  till today,
• 35:25
  you know,
• 35:25
  many people read the book and everybody loved it.
• 35:28
  Also,
• 35:28
  I had to do it as a pitch turner because at the end of the day,
• 35:31
  people have to read it.
• 35:32
  So even my sister,
• 35:34
  who never read the book in the past 10 years,
• 35:36
  read it from start to finish.
• 35:37
  And many,
• 35:38
  many people now call me and say,
• 35:39
  oh,
• 35:39
  we read the book,
• 35:40
  we loved it.
• 35:42
  So it's nice actually So were you worried about being sued and
• 35:50
  have you been sued?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: no I was worried,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know Even my sister always called me like,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: oh dear Balak,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: people will get angry It's like,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's their problem You know,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: this is what I have seen If you don't like it,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: go and write another book That's what I tell people
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, listen, many people, you know, complain, okay?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: But complain about what?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I told what I saw, okay?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, which sometimes it's against the narrative.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have seen it myself,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: like the whole thing with 9-11,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:29
  the first majority of the people don't even believe that 9-11
• 36:31
  existed to start
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: with.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I went out,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: we talked about all these 9-11 hijackers,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: we talked to their families,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: we went to their schools,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: we know their neighbors,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: and some people to come and tell us,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: we're telling lies,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: good luck,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: just keep believing on your conspiracy theories.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: we've done it,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:53
  we went to the currency exchange in Dubai where the money for
• 36:57
  the hijackers was
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: transferred,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: at Lemcy Center.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: we went,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I talked to Mohammed Afa's father and his neighbors and his cousins,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: so when people tell me that this guy does not exist,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: this is just unbelievable.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: it came to the Syrian,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: covering the Syrian revolution,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:18
  the Syrian revolution in Jordan created a huge division amongst
• 37:22
  the people between
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: the pro and anti-Assad.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very hard for people to dispute because this is what it is
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: after everything you reported on our view,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: so the wars,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: the survivors,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: the truth-telling,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: the September 11,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: all of that,
• 38:04
  what do you want the readers to walk away with after they
• 38:09
  finish the book?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is the message?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell, especially the people in the West,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: What people don't know is war, okay?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And this book is about war.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because in fact,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: the first line of the book,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: you've seen it,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: it's called,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: I put a line from Zohir Ibn Salma,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: War is only what you have done and tasted.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: No narrative can describe it as well.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's difficult.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because people don't know what war,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: if you have not seen war firsthand,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: a book this thick is not going to explain it to you.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the misery that war creates,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: the aftermath,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: the widows and the orphans and the poverty,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: and it's just unbelievable.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what war is.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: the reason I wrote it,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: one of the reasons I wrote it was,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: to make people understand what war is.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very horrible thing to do.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe find a way to avoid it on one level.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: On another level,
• 39:13
  people in the West don't even understand what's happening in
• 39:16
  the Arab world,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: the backstories of what's going on.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope when they read it,
• 39:20
  they will just have a better understanding of who we are
• 39:23
  because people don't
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: think,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: they think,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: we are like a bunch of idiots or angry people,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: and we're not by any means.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the chapters here is called Same Said But Different.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you read that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how people dress in the Gulf.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: when we,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: even me,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: when I went to Saudi Arabia the first time,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I looked at everybody,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: they're all dressed the same,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: they're all in white tobs,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 39:45
  And you never realize who's who,
• 39:47
  you never know,
• 39:48
  because they all look the same.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, they are different.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you go to a country like Saudi Arabia, 35 million people,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they are not the same people.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: You have educated Saudis,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: you have the Westerners Saudis,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: you have the sophisticated Saudis,
• 40:04
  and you have the extremists and the religious and maybe the
• 40:06
  terrorists and the
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: atheists and like everybody,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: like every other nation,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: you have every,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: but they're all the same.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the cool thing.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, and the chapter was called the same, same, but different.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're all the same, but they're actually so different.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: like when you go to the west of people in America,
• 40:25
  you'd be able to go to know who's who quickly because of the
• 40:28
  way they dress,
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Arabia, good luck, you know.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to look for the signs,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: not just Saudi,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: all the Gulf states,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:37
  like you have to look for the pen and the covering and the
• 40:40
  watch and the countries
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: and so on.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: You've seen it in Qatar.
• 40:48
  That was one,
• 40:49
  and I tried to explain to the people,
• 40:51
  but us Arabs,
• 40:52
  we are not the same.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: We are 30 or 350 million people,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 40:58
  but we are so different and we have different points of views
• 41:01
  and different ideas
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: and so on.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: But we are human beings after all.
• 41:06
  I love that I love how so for those who's listening and we're
• 41:10
  happy to answer any
• 41:11
  questions by the way Amjad is here so make use of him we have
• 41:17
  Gordon hi Gordon we
• 41:19
  have Kathy we have Dawood hi Dawood a mutual friend and
• 41:23
  colleague have Emily we
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: have Naomi Makahas my friend Naomi how are you we have Tala
• 41:29
  We have Ahmed Saeed We have Weynix And we have Jen Please feel
• 41:35
  free to comment or
• 41:36
  ask any questions Naomi is saying best line I think she was
• 41:42
  referencing to
• 41:42
  something you said I don't remember what But you said something
• 41:45
  that really
• 41:46
  resonated with her But anyone here live If you want to ask
• 41:50
  Amjad This is your
• 41:51
  chance And meanwhile Amjad Can you tell the audience Where they
• 41:56
  can find your book
• 41:59
  how they can contact you personally if they have any questions
• 42:01
  and so this is well
• 42:03
  you know I'm self-published by the way it was very hard for me
• 42:06
  to find a publisher
• 42:07
  because I'm not a household name and so it was very easy and
• 42:11
  you know that most of
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: the agents you know they so I decided to self-publish it so I published I
• 42:17
  self-published a book I did the layout myself by the way and I
• 42:21
  was the editor
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: because I used to be graphic designers many many many years ago
• 42:26
  I got all the photos put them together I did most of the work
• 42:31
  and it's published on
• 42:32
  Amazon in three formats there is an e-book paperback and
• 42:37
  hardback so it's still
• 42:38
  published on Amazon now we're trying to publish in other places
• 42:42
  and if you want to
• 42:43
  know more about it you can go to my website amjattadros.com
• 42:45
  there are lots of
• 42:47
  pictures and audios and things about the book and some
• 42:51
  backstories and so on that
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: we keep updating
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm going to be on Substack Yeah,
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: great Well,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: for anyone who's not subscribed to Amjad's newsletter Please do so,
• 43:03
  he has a lot of interesting story And thank you everyone for
• 43:08
  joining us today for
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: another episode of the Substack Writers Salon And until we meet again,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: thank you very much Amjad and I'll talk to you soon Take care Bye