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Legally Brunette Presents: 'Til Death Do Us Part - John List · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to Legally Brunette Presents Till Death Do
0:06
Speaker 1: Us Part, where we talk about cases in which wives
0:09
Speaker 1: try to get rid of their husbands or husbands trying
0:11
Speaker 1: to get rid of their wives. And today we're going
0:14
Speaker 1: to do an update on the Gerhardt Koenig trial. We
0:17
Speaker 1: talked about it last week, so if you didn't listen
0:19
Speaker 1: to the episode, you should go back and listen to it,
0:21
Speaker 1: because again, I feel like you'd have to live under
0:24
Speaker 1: a rock to not have at least no a little
0:27
Speaker 1: bit or have seen his face out there. This is
0:30
Speaker 1: the case of the doctor. He's an antesthesiologist who tried
0:36
Speaker 1: to push his wife. Allegedly he did it, tried to
0:40
Speaker 1: he allegedly tried to push his wife, did the Palipuka
0:44
Speaker 1: trail in Hawaii.
0:46
Speaker 2: He at tempted and he failed.
0:48
Speaker 1: He failed miserably. And the trial has been going on,
0:52
Speaker 1: and we left off last week where we were recorded
0:55
Speaker 1: an episode. Ariel had taken the stand and then also
1:01
Speaker 1: the witness, and there were some other people that had testified,
1:03
Speaker 1: but at the time that we recorded it, Gerhard had
1:07
Speaker 1: not taken the stand, and we were also contemplating whether
1:10
Speaker 1: his son was going to take the stand and testify.
1:12
Speaker 2: Well, we heard he was.
1:13
Speaker 1: We heard he was.
1:14
Speaker 2: It's hard to believe, right.
1:15
Speaker 1: And we didn't know, I mean, we didn't know if
1:18
Speaker 1: he was going to testify against his dad or what.
1:20
Speaker 1: But now we know, so let's talk about it. Gerhardt
1:24
Speaker 1: took the stand in his own defense, admitting that he
1:28
Speaker 1: struck his wife with a rock during their hike, but
1:31
Speaker 1: he claimed that he was acting in self defense after
1:33
Speaker 1: she allegedly tried to push him off the cliff and
1:37
Speaker 1: attacked him first. So obviously, if his his whole defense
1:44
Speaker 1: to this trial is self defense, he's going to have
1:46
Speaker 1: to testify on his own behalf because obviously he's the
1:49
Speaker 1: only person that can testify as to what he claims happened.
1:54
Speaker 1: So what do you think about him testifying on his
1:56
Speaker 1: own behalf?
1:57
Speaker 3: Usually when a defendant testifies, generally speaking, it's likely against
2:04
Speaker 3: the advice of their attorney, generally speaking. But they are
2:09
Speaker 3: such a narcissist and they think they can talk their
2:11
Speaker 3: way out of it, and they think that they're such
2:14
Speaker 3: such a charming person that they can they can get.
2:18
Speaker 1: To the jury, they can convince that, yeah.
2:20
Speaker 3: And they're not gonna let her. He's not gonna let
2:22
Speaker 3: her get the word in. He's gonna tell it like
2:24
Speaker 3: it is.
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Speaker 2: That's what I think.
2:27
Speaker 1: So when he was testified, he denied trying to kill her,
2:30
Speaker 1: and he denied having the syringes during the incident. Remember
2:33
Speaker 1: how when she testified, she claimed that after he tried
2:37
Speaker 1: to push her to the edge, and then she grabbed
2:39
Speaker 1: onto a tree branch, and then he grabbed her by
2:42
Speaker 1: the arms, and then they wrestled a little bit, and
2:44
Speaker 1: then she fell to the ground. She claimed that he
2:47
Speaker 1: straddled her and that he reached down and pulled a
2:50
Speaker 1: syringe out that but the syringe was never found at
2:54
Speaker 1: the scene of the crime. Obviously, when he ran after
2:57
Speaker 1: she got hit in the head with the rock and
2:59
Speaker 1: the two hikers came along and helped her down the trail.
3:02
Speaker 1: He could have easily picked up those syringes and got
3:04
Speaker 1: in a.
3:06
Speaker 3: Wet vegetated area like that. I mean, a little syringe
3:11
Speaker 3: tosses it somewhere far away, it's going to be tough
3:13
Speaker 3: to find.
3:15
Speaker 1: He said that the confrontation stemmed from their marital tensions
3:19
Speaker 1: after discovering her. I love how we always called it
3:22
Speaker 1: an emotional affair. It's very every article I've ever read
3:25
Speaker 1: about this case always talks about how she had an
3:28
Speaker 1: affair with a co worker, but it's always an emotional affair.
3:33
Speaker 1: Koenig also testified, I.
3:35
Speaker 2: Get emotional tonight, babe.
3:37
Speaker 1: I mean this, would you like to have an emotional emotional.
3:42
Speaker 2: Eythings such bull crab.
3:44
Speaker 3: It's like, there's no evidence that actually sleeping together, so
3:47
Speaker 3: we need to say it was just emotion.
3:48
Speaker 1: It was an emotional affair.
3:49
Speaker 2: No exchanging of bodily fluid.
3:52
Speaker 1: Koenig also testified about feeling quote severe emotional distress after
3:56
Speaker 1: hurting his wife and said he contemplated suicide. So this
4:00
Speaker 1: was him on the stand in his own defense. Probably,
4:04
Speaker 1: like you said, was such a huge ego, and he's
4:07
Speaker 1: such a narcissist that I'm sure he truly believes that
4:10
Speaker 1: he can convince the jury of his genuine feelings, and
4:14
Speaker 1: that she attacked him first and tried to push him
4:17
Speaker 1: off the cliff, and he was only hitting her in
4:19
Speaker 1: the head with a law of a rock because he
4:21
Speaker 1: was acting in self defense, because he was truly scared
4:25
Speaker 1: for his life. Yeah.
4:27
Speaker 2: Right.
4:28
Speaker 1: Then his son testified Emil, so Emil only referred to
4:32
Speaker 1: his father. I don't know if you noticed this, if
4:34
Speaker 1: you saw any of the testimony, Yeah, but he only
4:36
Speaker 1: refers to his father as the defendant throughout the entire testimony.
4:41
Speaker 1: Emil said that his father believed Ariel had been unfaithful,
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Speaker 1: and he told him he wouldn't be returning to Maui.
4:47
Speaker 1: Gerhard asked Emil to care for his younger siblings. This
4:51
Speaker 1: is when he's testifying that after the incident, his dad
4:54
Speaker 1: called him via FaceTime. He also testified that his father
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Speaker 1: face timed him again the way, why.
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Speaker 2: Would he think that his son would want to hear.
5:02
Speaker 1: That, hear that or protect him or any.
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Speaker 3: Of the above, Like why would he think that that's
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Speaker 3: what he needed to do if it was his buddy
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Speaker 3: and his buddy was going to help him kill her,
5:15
Speaker 3: and like was in on it, like his partner that way,
5:19
Speaker 3: or his mistress that was in on it.
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Speaker 2: I could see that. Why would you think to call
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Speaker 2: his son?
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what kind of relationship
5:28
Speaker 1: he had with his older son. I believe he's nineteen,
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Speaker 1: But maybe he felt like they had a good father's
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Speaker 1: son relationship and his son wasn't gonna wasn't going to
5:35
Speaker 1: turn on him. I don't know, And maybe he was
5:37
Speaker 1: in such an emotional state because he didn't know what
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Speaker 1: to do. Can you imagine how frazzle.
5:41
Speaker 2: I think of it.
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Speaker 3: He really didn't know what he was doing. He just
5:44
Speaker 3: needed to reach out someone. He was just a mess.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because imagine how frazzled he is. Because from my perspective,
5:50
Speaker 1: I'm going to go with this is premeditated. He knew
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Speaker 1: what he was going to do. He picked that trail.
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Speaker 1: I believe there's forensic evidence of him doing doing searches
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Speaker 1: for trails and whole that had, you.
6:01
Speaker 2: Know, cliffs, you know, where to a syringe.
6:05
Speaker 1: Yes, so I believe that, you know, he had every
6:10
Speaker 1: intention of pushing her off of the cliff that day
6:13
Speaker 1: and then claiming that they were just taking a selfie
6:15
Speaker 1: and she slipped. And I'm sure in his mind he
6:17
Speaker 1: thought it was very simple. He thought, we're just going
6:20
Speaker 1: to go out on this trailiffs and we're just gonna
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Speaker 1: take a selfie as close to the edge as we can,
6:25
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to push her off, and then
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Speaker 1: I'm going to be the distraw husband that's crying and says,
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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we were taking a selfie and she fell,
6:32
Speaker 1: And but what happened was. She fought her way and
6:35
Speaker 1: then he didn't know what to do. Was tougher than
6:38
Speaker 1: he thought, right, So then I think he freaked out,
6:40
Speaker 1: picked up a rock, starts beating her on the head,
6:42
Speaker 1: and then some hikers come along and for that, No,
6:45
Speaker 1: and he didn't plan for any of that, So he
6:47
Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do. This guy's a can you
6:49
Speaker 1: imagine what state of mind he's in.
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Speaker 3: He just runs hide the syringe. Yeah, he succeeded in
6:55
Speaker 3: that exactly.
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Speaker 1: And I do believe that there was a syringe because a.
6:59
Speaker 2: Blue plunger she described it.
7:00
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no way that she went through all
7:02
Speaker 1: of that and then created like a fake narrative about
7:06
Speaker 1: a syringe in the middle of it. Like that makes
7:08
Speaker 1: no sense at all. It's enough just to say he
7:10
Speaker 1: tried to push her off the edge and then he
7:12
Speaker 1: beat her with the rock.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, fine, let's we'll disregard the syringe. You can have
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Speaker 3: that one. Mister Koenig or what's his name, Tonig?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, his name's Gerhart last Kronig.
7:22
Speaker 2: Killer. We'll call him killer.
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Speaker 3: And when I saw that defend the son against the defendant,
7:28
Speaker 3: he seemed like he didn't give a crap about his dad.
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Speaker 2: He wasn't emotional.
7:33
Speaker 3: He was just like, yeah, that dude over there, Yeah
7:36
Speaker 3: he's a killer.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, put him in jail.
7:37
Speaker 3: Yeah he did this to me, like he called me
7:39
Speaker 3: like he did not, like he was over he was
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Speaker 3: checked out.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're saying because we've seen other people, like even
7:44
Speaker 1: in the Corey Richm's case we were talking about when
7:46
Speaker 1: the boyfriend testified against her.
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Speaker 2: I didn't see that one.
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Speaker 1: I did, but he was an emotional wreck. You could
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Speaker 1: tell he did not want to do that. So it
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Speaker 1: was very he had a hard time.
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Speaker 2: Like the son, Yeah, the woman that he was in
7:58
Speaker 2: love with.
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Speaker 1: Was killer and then he had to testify, whereas.
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Speaker 3: This guy was not like it sucks that my dad's
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Speaker 3: a killer. No, he's like, I want nothing to do
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Speaker 3: with that dude.
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Speaker 1: Right, So he does FaceTime again a second time, roughly
8:10
Speaker 1: an hour later, and said he was going to jump
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Speaker 1: off the cliff before police could catch him. That's an
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Speaker 1: account that contradicts Gerhardt's self defense claim because obviously, well.
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Speaker 3: Every bit of evidence contradicts his self defense claim.
8:25
Speaker 1: Well, they had a forensic some type of forensic person
8:30
Speaker 1: testify that apparently Ariel had claimed or her team or
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Speaker 1: the prosecution or whatever had claimed that she had been
8:37
Speaker 1: hit in the head like ten times, and then they
8:40
Speaker 1: had a forensic expert testify on behalf of the defense,
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Speaker 1: claiming that she was really only hit two to three times.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what, in all that struggling, I
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Speaker 3: imagine it's possible forensically that they can show that that
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Speaker 3: lava rock, which we discussed last week as being sharp,
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Speaker 3: hit and made contact and made what do you call it,
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Speaker 3: like abrasion lacerations, lacerations two to three times or whatever
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Speaker 3: it was. But in all that struggling, maybe there was
9:10
Speaker 3: a lot of wailing of the arms and she was
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Speaker 3: kind of getting smacked around a little bit, but not
9:15
Speaker 3: necessarily like sharp contact was made to her head, like
9:19
Speaker 3: it might have been the back of his hand or something.
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Speaker 3: So excuse her for not having counted the amount of
9:26
Speaker 3: times the lava rock came in direct contact with her
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Speaker 3: head resulting in lacerations.
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Speaker 1: Well, what they're trying to do is they're just trying
9:33
Speaker 1: to say that she exaggerates, that she's embellishing what happened.
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Speaker 3: That bodycm footage of blood all over her face didn't
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Speaker 3: exaggerate anything.
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Speaker 1: Right, All right, Well, we will continue to follow the
9:44
Speaker 1: Koenig trial. I'm not sure how much longer. I feel
9:48
Speaker 1: like we're towards the end of this trial and we're
9:49
Speaker 1: going to end up with a verdict relatively soon, so
9:54
Speaker 1: we will keep you informed.
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Speaker 2: Likely a guilty verdict.
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Speaker 1: Likely a guilty verdict. I can't do.
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Speaker 3: What's the defense against the sun. That's not true. My
10:01
Speaker 3: son's lying. It's not looking good for this dude.
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Speaker 1: It does not look good. All right, let's move on
10:15
Speaker 1: to John List. I don't know if you've ever heard
10:17
Speaker 1: of this. This is an older case. Actually, this case
10:19
Speaker 1: fascinates me because I'm sure I've told you all this before,
10:22
Speaker 1: but I'm a huge fan of forensic files. There actually
10:25
Speaker 1: is Forensic Files one and two, and these are all,
10:29
Speaker 1: I believe the original forensic files. I feel like a
10:31
Speaker 1: lot of the cases are like in the ninety or
10:33
Speaker 1: was it made in the nineties, probably, and then then
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Speaker 1: Forensic Files two it's more like two thousands.
10:39
Speaker 3: I don't know when it was made. I just know
10:42
Speaker 3: it airs and it's a timeless classic.
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Speaker 1: It is a classic. I love forensic files. If you
10:47
Speaker 1: don't get excited with.
10:48
Speaker 2: That intro stamp on that when that intro comes on.
10:50
Speaker 1: And she snaps the glasses down in the in the
10:53
Speaker 1: lab like the you know what I mean where I
10:56
Speaker 1: fast forward the intro? No, you got to watch the intro.
10:58
Speaker 1: The best part of Forensic Files is the introthing like that, right,
11:03
Speaker 1: all right? So this is John List and this is
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Speaker 1: I would say this is probably one of my favorite
11:07
Speaker 1: forensic files. It really sticks out in my mind. That's
11:09
Speaker 1: why I wanted to go through it because it's perfect.
11:11
Speaker 1: I do. I love forensic Files. I feel like we
11:13
Speaker 1: should do a Forensic.
11:14
Speaker 2: Files recap recap because.
11:17
Speaker 1: I just just love it. Love forensic files anyway. Also
11:21
Speaker 1: Forensic Files, I don't know why, but there's a lot
11:25
Speaker 1: of episodes that take place in Ohio. So that's just
11:27
Speaker 1: a fun fact about Forensic Files. So John List appeared
11:32
Speaker 1: to live a perfect religious family life in New Jersey.
11:34
Speaker 1: You gotta love those perfect religious lives. You always know
11:37
Speaker 1: there's something coming up that's going to be dark. But
11:41
Speaker 1: after secretly losing his job in nineteen seventy one, he
11:45
Speaker 1: murdered his wife, three children, and mother in a planned
11:48
Speaker 1: attempt to save their souls from future suffering. He carefully
11:53
Speaker 1: staged the scene and disappeared successfully evading capture for eighteen
11:59
Speaker 1: years while living under a completely new identity. In nineteen
12:04
Speaker 1: eighty nine, he was finally identified after being featured on
12:08
Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted. That's why I love this Forensic Files too,
12:11
Speaker 1: because they show the American They show the America's Most
12:13
Speaker 1: Wanted clips with John Walsh, which is another great show.
12:18
Speaker 1: I feel like they need to bring that back. I
12:21
Speaker 1: think they are. I think I saw something.
12:24
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, America's Most Wanted. Yeah, he has streaming stuff.
12:27
Speaker 1: Maybe that's it.
12:28
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what I saw.
12:30
Speaker 1: In that world. Yeah. And then John Lyss was arrested
12:34
Speaker 1: shortly after The America's Most Wanted aired. He was convicted
12:39
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety and sentenced to life in prison, where
12:41
Speaker 1: he later died in two thousand and eight. So let's
12:45
Speaker 1: go back through this guy's early life and family life.
12:49
Speaker 1: So in nineteen twenty five, John Lyss was born. He
12:51
Speaker 1: served in the US Army during World War Two. He
12:54
Speaker 1: met his wife, Helen Morris Taylor. John and Helen had
12:58
Speaker 1: three children, born between nineteen fifty five and fifty eight,
13:01
Speaker 1: and then the Lists family relocates to Penfield, New York,
13:04
Speaker 1: where John is employed by Xerox. They lived in this big,
13:10
Speaker 1: beautiful home that had a ballroom and multiple bedrooms and
13:18
Speaker 1: like this tiffany light and all kinds of things. So
13:22
Speaker 1: I assumed that he made pretty good money. So in
13:25
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five he loses his position at x ROX,
13:28
Speaker 1: but then he goes on to purchase a large, eighteen
13:31
Speaker 1: room mansion in Westfield, New Jersey. His mother, Alma, provides
13:36
Speaker 1: the down payment, and then that allows her to move
13:38
Speaker 1: in with them. That's a good way to be able
13:40
Speaker 1: to move into your kid's house.
13:42
Speaker 2: Oh say, I'll pay for it.
13:43
Speaker 1: I'll pay for the down payment. I'll give you the
13:45
Speaker 1: down payment for a house, but I have to live.
13:47
Speaker 2: With you, and you would require a big down payment.
13:51
Speaker 1: I would require a big down payment. What do you
13:53
Speaker 1: mean The kids would say I had to pay. They
13:55
Speaker 1: would say I had to pay for the whole house,
13:56
Speaker 1: and then they still wouldn't let me live there. Between
13:59
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five five in nineteen seventy one, List works
14:01
Speaker 1: as a commission based insurance salesman, but struggles professionally after
14:06
Speaker 1: two prior jobs fall through. On the surface, the family
14:10
Speaker 1: appeared wealthy, stable, and representative of the American.
14:14
Speaker 2: Dream key term right there on the surface.
14:16
Speaker 1: On the surface. That would be now in today's term.
14:20
Speaker 1: On Instagram, it would be yes on Instagram. They appear
14:25
Speaker 1: wealthy and stay on Instagram.
14:27
Speaker 3: This dog appears friendly in your life. This dog is dangerous.
14:32
Speaker 1: The List family was deeply religious There's another red Flag
14:37
Speaker 1: and attended church regularly as devout Lutherans. John Liss even
14:42
Speaker 1: taught Sunday school. In nineteen seventy, his wife Helen, received
14:46
Speaker 1: treatment for worsening cognitive issues, later diagnosed as tertiary syphilis OOH.
14:53
Speaker 1: Tertiary syphilis is a severe, late stage and non infectious
14:56
Speaker 1: form of untreated syphialis typically developing ten to thirty years
15:00
Speaker 1: after the initial infection. It causes significant damage to organs,
15:04
Speaker 1: including the brain, heart, eyes, and bones. I don't know
15:07
Speaker 1: how she ended up getting syphilis, but maybe it was
15:11
Speaker 1: from John, I don't know. So he pretends to go
15:13
Speaker 1: to work each day, and instead of going to work,
15:16
Speaker 1: he spends his days at the train station reading newspapers.
15:19
Speaker 1: He's not even looking for another job. That's the part
15:21
Speaker 1: that baffles my mind is instead of like, okay, so
15:24
Speaker 1: he's going to pretend that he's going to work every day,
15:26
Speaker 1: he's going to lie to his family and not tell
15:28
Speaker 1: them that he lost his job. But instead of pretending
15:31
Speaker 1: like you're going to work every day and then going
15:33
Speaker 1: to look for another job, he just goes to the
15:34
Speaker 1: train station and reads the newspaper.
15:36
Speaker 2: He looks maybe.
15:38
Speaker 1: He secretly took money from his mother's bank accounts to
15:41
Speaker 1: keep up with expenses, and he refused to apply for
15:44
Speaker 1: welfare because of pride and fear of embarrassment. During this
15:48
Speaker 1: time period, he became increasingly overwhelmed by financial pressure and expectations. Then,
15:54
Speaker 1: on October fourteenth of nineteen seventy one, John applied for
15:57
Speaker 1: a gun permit, saying he needs a gun for home protection. Then,
16:01
Speaker 1: in early November of nineteen seventy one, John's daughter Patricia
16:04
Speaker 1: reportedly tells her drama coach that her father has threatened
16:07
Speaker 1: to kill her family. All right, So then he comes
16:10
Speaker 1: up with a plan of how to deal with the
16:12
Speaker 1: finances and the embarrassment of having to go on welfare
16:15
Speaker 1: and the embarrassment of not having a job. He decides
16:18
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is to murder his entire family.
16:22
Speaker 1: So on November ninth of nineteen seventy one, John Liss
16:25
Speaker 1: murders his entire family. First, he shoots his wife Helen.
16:28
Speaker 1: I believe, she's sitting at a table drinking coffee, and
16:30
Speaker 1: I think the kid's already left for school, and he
16:32
Speaker 1: shoots her z he kills her. Then he goes upstairs
16:36
Speaker 1: and his mother is in bed. He shoots her in bed.
16:39
Speaker 1: Then his daughter, Patricia I believe, comes home from school,
16:42
Speaker 1: he shoots her. John comes home from school, he shoots him.
16:46
Speaker 1: And then the last son I believe, had some kind
16:49
Speaker 1: of like game or something. He was in sports, So
16:52
Speaker 1: I think John actually went and watched him play sports
16:55
Speaker 1: while the whole family's dead. So everybody's dead in the house.
16:58
Speaker 1: He goes to the son's game I believe, and watches him,
17:02
Speaker 1: drives him home, and then shoots him. So now the
17:04
Speaker 1: whole entire family is dead. He then moves all of
17:10
Speaker 1: them into the ballroom well, and he spends the night
17:15
Speaker 1: in the house first, so everybody's dead in the house,
17:17
Speaker 1: stays the night in the house. I don't know he
17:21
Speaker 1: should have, but he kills his whole family, and then
17:24
Speaker 1: he moves them all into the ballroom and wraps him
17:27
Speaker 1: in sleeping bags. He even attended his son's soccer game
17:30
Speaker 1: before bringing him home and shooting him. Several times in
17:32
Speaker 1: the chest and the face.
17:36
Speaker 2: How do you do that?
17:38
Speaker 1: How are you just a normal family man who goes
17:40
Speaker 1: to church every Sunday and teaches Sunday school and has
17:43
Speaker 1: three children and a wife and a mom.
17:45
Speaker 2: He's not a normal fan. Do you not see that?
17:49
Speaker 3: Yeah?
17:49
Speaker 1: But how do you pretend to be a normal family man?
17:52
Speaker 2: Like?
17:52
Speaker 1: Is he normal? And then something happens?
17:54
Speaker 3: Partly why I asked how long it was? But the
17:56
Speaker 3: time he lost his job, from the time he went
17:58
Speaker 3: and got a gun. How long was he reading those newspapers?
18:02
Speaker 3: Maybe went crazy so.
18:03
Speaker 1: Within that time period, or maybe he was always crazy
18:07
Speaker 1: and then he was triggered, or maybe he wasn't crazy
18:09
Speaker 1: at all.
18:09
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it was his mom living with him.
18:11
Speaker 1: Who knows. You think it was the mom living with him.
18:12
Speaker 2: You think that's what pushed him over there when he killed.
18:15
Speaker 1: No, the wife was the first when he killed. He
18:17
Speaker 1: killed his wife first and then he killed his.
18:19
Speaker 2: Mom, the two women in his life.
18:21
Speaker 1: Yes, he killed them first, all right, So in November
18:25
Speaker 1: to December of nineteen seventy one, this is how John
18:28
Speaker 1: lyss covers up this crime and escapes.
18:30
Speaker 2: So you never plan on killing himself.
18:33
Speaker 1: No, that was not part of the plan.
18:34
Speaker 3: He was just going to kill the people that he
18:36
Speaker 3: thought would be embarrassed in front of Yeah, right, then
18:40
Speaker 3: he wasn't embarrassed of killing everyone.
18:44
Speaker 2: No.
18:44
Speaker 1: And I guess because he was such a devout Christian.
18:48
Speaker 1: I always love how people were use religion Christian killers, right,
18:52
Speaker 1: Like even when we talk about other cases where people
18:54
Speaker 1: were like, I can't get divorced, it's against my religion,
18:56
Speaker 1: so I'll just I'll just murder my spouse. But I guess.
19:00
Speaker 1: And he had such a reputation in the community, and
19:03
Speaker 1: he was an upstanding.
19:03
Speaker 2: They say, that's exactly what it is.
19:05
Speaker 1: It's it's reputation.
19:06
Speaker 2: It's fear of people, not fear of God.
19:08
Speaker 3: Right, He's worried about what people are going to think
19:10
Speaker 3: of him, not what really you know.
19:12
Speaker 1: Right, So, after the murders took place, he spends the
19:16
Speaker 1: night in the house and then he places the bodies
19:18
Speaker 1: and the mansion's ballroom on sleeping bags. He wrote a
19:22
Speaker 1: detailed letter to his pastor explaining his actions. In the letter,
19:26
Speaker 1: he claims that he killed his family in order to
19:28
Speaker 1: save their souls from moral corruption. I don't believe that
19:31
Speaker 1: crap for one minute. I just think he was just
19:33
Speaker 1: embarrassed by the financial situation.
19:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, killed him for more.
19:38
Speaker 1: He couldn't afford his lifestyle, he couldn't afford the house.
19:40
Speaker 1: He was skimming money from his mother. He couldn't keep
19:43
Speaker 1: doing that for long. So he's like, how do I
19:45
Speaker 1: get out of this? I'll just kill my family. He
19:47
Speaker 1: carefully cleaned the crime scene and attempt to delay discovery
19:51
Speaker 1: because he needs time to get away, right, And he
19:53
Speaker 1: removed This part cracks me up. He removed his face
19:58
Speaker 1: from all of the family photographs to make identification of
20:01
Speaker 1: him more difficult. So he went around in the house
20:04
Speaker 1: and every photograph that he's in he cuts his face
20:06
Speaker 1: out of.
20:07
Speaker 3: It, and so like, as if that's key evidence, Like
20:14
Speaker 3: detectives use family photos like to try to find the suspect.
20:18
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the seventies, so I guess there
20:21
Speaker 1: isn't there's not a digital footprint of this man.
20:24
Speaker 2: It's not like, oh, you're right, it was seventy one.
20:26
Speaker 1: It's seventy one. So if he removes his photograph from
20:31
Speaker 1: the house, but there's got.
20:32
Speaker 3: To be other photographs. He went through every photograph, the
20:35
Speaker 3: photograph album, and the other kids, probably Aaron. Where was
20:39
Speaker 3: the where's oh he killed her.
20:40
Speaker 1: He killed everybody. There's no one left. And he removes
20:43
Speaker 1: all his photographs from the house. So I guess he
20:45
Speaker 1: assumes that if there's no photographs of him, then there's
20:47
Speaker 1: no way that they can put an idea of what
20:49
Speaker 1: he looks like out there.
20:50
Speaker 3: They also walk around with like a Karl Marx like glasses,
20:54
Speaker 3: notes and mustache.
20:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, so no one can see him.
20:58
Speaker 1: He contacted the kids square and said that the family
21:01
Speaker 1: would be on vacation for two weeks.
21:03
Speaker 2: They're in the ballroom, they won't be able to come
21:05
Speaker 2: to school.
21:05
Speaker 1: Well, you know what, he needed time to get away
21:07
Speaker 1: and start a new life, so he does all Maybe.
21:09
Speaker 3: He should have planned all that when he was at
21:11
Speaker 3: the bus station with the newspapers.
21:13
Speaker 2: Well maybe he was planning of then that.
21:15
Speaker 1: Maybe he was planning at them. I don't know. And
21:16
Speaker 1: he needs more time, he well, he needs time to
21:19
Speaker 1: evade capture. So if he gets rid of all his
21:22
Speaker 1: photographs and then no one notices that the kids don't
21:24
Speaker 1: show up to school. So he called and said the
21:26
Speaker 1: kids are going to be on vacation for two weeks.
21:28
Speaker 1: That means the school is not saying, oh where are
21:31
Speaker 1: these kids? And the calling the police.
21:33
Speaker 2: They're not taking a mom. Did she work?
21:34
Speaker 1: Do we know? Well? His mother was eighty something, and
21:37
Speaker 1: his wife, I doubt worked, so no one's missing her
21:40
Speaker 1: at work. The mother lives with them, she's eighty four.
21:43
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe they don't show up for church.
21:45
Speaker 1: I don't know. He turned the air conditioning on high
21:49
Speaker 1: so that they didn't decompose quickly, so that there wouldn't
21:51
Speaker 1: be a smell. He left lights on and played music
21:54
Speaker 1: throughout the house to make it seem occupied, so that
21:57
Speaker 1: people weren't being like, oh, there's something we're going on.
21:59
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anybody go in and out. He left
22:01
Speaker 1: music on, lights on, and air conditioning on high, and
22:05
Speaker 1: then the next day he left the house and completely disappeared.
22:17
Speaker 1: Weeks later, the neighbors became suspicious due to no activity
22:20
Speaker 1: at the home. They're like, it's been the same song
22:22
Speaker 1: over and over and over. Probably right. Police entered the
22:26
Speaker 1: house on December seventh, nineteen seventy one. Now, remember, no.
22:29
Speaker 2: It couldn't have been the same song over and over again.
22:31
Speaker 1: I know, I'm just joking.
22:32
Speaker 2: It was nineteen seventy one, so I just had to be
22:34
Speaker 2: the radio.
22:35
Speaker 1: Well, it said, he well, how did he play music
22:37
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one?
22:39
Speaker 2: Radio?
22:40
Speaker 1: Just a radio, There was no other way.
22:41
Speaker 3: He put a record it, it would get to the
22:43
Speaker 3: end of the track and it'd be done.
22:44
Speaker 1: Well, maybe he just played a record and then it
22:46
Speaker 1: got to the end of the track and it was done.
22:48
Speaker 1: But he murdered his remember he murdered his entire family
22:51
Speaker 1: on November ninth. The police do not enter the house
22:55
Speaker 1: until December seventh, so he had almost a full month
22:58
Speaker 1: to get away. So the police centered the house on
23:01
Speaker 1: December seventh, nineteen seventy one, and they discovered the bodies.
23:05
Speaker 1: They also found the letter in which Liszt explained the murders.
23:09
Speaker 1: Religious music was still playing throughout the house. Well, how
23:12
Speaker 1: did he do that? It says religious music? And so
23:14
Speaker 1: religious music was playing in this house for all the while.
23:17
Speaker 2: Radio station a religious radio station.
23:20
Speaker 1: Christian rock in seventy one was Christian rock a thing
23:23
Speaker 1: in seventy one. His car was later found at John F.
23:27
Speaker 1: Kennedy International Airport. Despite this, there was no immediate trace
23:31
Speaker 1: of him. Well, and they don't know what he looks
23:33
Speaker 1: like because he got rid of all photographs, so nobody
23:35
Speaker 1: can where They're like, we can't find it. We don't
23:37
Speaker 1: know what he looks like.
23:37
Speaker 3: Even better, he should have cut and pasted like someone
23:39
Speaker 3: else's face.
23:42
Speaker 1: That guy right, some neighbory he doesn't like. Yeah, there
23:47
Speaker 1: was no immediate trace of him and the case went cold.
23:51
Speaker 1: Oddly enough, the Lists family's mansion burnt down several months
23:55
Speaker 1: after the murders. The cause of the fire was never determined,
23:57
Speaker 1: and a new house was later built on the proper.
24:00
Speaker 2: Well, you know what that sucks.
24:01
Speaker 1: For my my? You know, I would like to do
24:04
Speaker 1: a legally brunette you know, tour road trip. We can, Yes,
24:09
Speaker 1: we can't go to the John List mansion now because
24:11
Speaker 1: it burned down.
24:12
Speaker 2: And do you have on the list?
24:13
Speaker 3: You have murdog Yes, I want to go have Beverly Hills.
24:18
Speaker 3: Brothers were at.
24:20
Speaker 1: The Menindaz brother's house. We definitely need to go to
24:22
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. Yeah, we should go to Corey Richan's mansion
24:27
Speaker 1: in Utah that she bought because she wanted to live
24:28
Speaker 1: in the guest house.
24:29
Speaker 2: See what we drove by, Right.
24:31
Speaker 1: We should go there. I don't know. Well, I'll make
24:34
Speaker 1: a list. We'll talk about next episode. We'll have our
24:37
Speaker 1: road trip planned out. John List remained missing for eighteen years.
24:42
Speaker 1: After the murders, he moved to Colorado initially and then
24:46
Speaker 1: later settled in Virginia. He applied for a Social Security
24:49
Speaker 1: card using the name Robert P. Clark and gave a
24:53
Speaker 1: Denver motel as his address. In nineteen eighty five, he
24:56
Speaker 1: gets remarried to Dolores Miller. The couple moved to Virginia
25:00
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, and he continued working as an
25:03
Speaker 1: accountant while living a completely normal way.
25:06
Speaker 3: So when he had a family, he didn't want to
25:09
Speaker 3: get a job, and then after he kills his family,
25:12
Speaker 3: he's like, Okay, I need to get a job.
25:13
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's what I'm saying. I don't know.
25:14
Speaker 1: When he's sitting at the train station and looking at
25:16
Speaker 1: the newspaper, was he trying to actively find a job
25:20
Speaker 1: and then he couldn't find a job so he freaked
25:22
Speaker 1: out and killed his family or did he just come
25:24
Speaker 1: up with this plan that he's like, I'm not going
25:26
Speaker 1: to get a job. I'm just going to kill my
25:27
Speaker 1: family and I'm gonna run away and I'm going to start
25:29
Speaker 1: a whole new life. I don't know. In nineteen eighty nine,
25:32
Speaker 1: his case was featured on America's Most Wanted. A forensic
25:36
Speaker 1: artist created an age progressed image of John List. But
25:40
Speaker 1: listen this image that they created on America's Most Wanted.
25:43
Speaker 1: They made a bust of him. It was not a pho.
25:47
Speaker 3: How do they even know what he looked like? How
25:49
Speaker 3: he cut all the photos out?
25:51
Speaker 2: I don't know they.
25:52
Speaker 1: I'm sure they had to have found some photo or someone.
25:55
Speaker 1: I don't know, but they made Oh.
25:57
Speaker 2: They had to have an aid. They found a child photo.
25:59
Speaker 2: That's why they had doing age. Oh that's right, you're right,
26:02
Speaker 2: Oh you remember.
26:03
Speaker 3: It now, Well it was only five No, I'm just
26:05
Speaker 3: figuring it out because you're telling me he killed them
26:07
Speaker 3: in seventy one.
26:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they found him in what year?
26:10
Speaker 1: His case is featured on America's Most Wanted in nineteen
26:13
Speaker 1: eighty nine. And I love the clips of this because
26:18
Speaker 1: they they don't do a sketch artist. It's not a
26:21
Speaker 1: sketch artist. They make a artist. It's a bust artist.
26:24
Speaker 1: They make an actual bust of him, and then it
26:26
Speaker 1: talks about how this this artist that puts together this
26:30
Speaker 1: bust of his image went to like he had to
26:33
Speaker 1: go to all these places to find like the perfect
26:35
Speaker 1: glasses because he wore like those.
26:37
Speaker 2: Oh wasn't it the glasses that did it too? Yes,
26:40
Speaker 2: I remember this one. Yeah, there you go. It was
26:42
Speaker 2: like the glasses.
26:43
Speaker 3: Like he spent a lot of time figuring out the glasses.
26:45
Speaker 2: Glasses. What kind of glasses would a killer wear? You
26:48
Speaker 2: found him?
26:49
Speaker 1: It was those seventies style.
26:51
Speaker 2: Right, But he had it.
26:52
Speaker 3: He looked at his personality and looked at everything and
26:54
Speaker 3: figured out what kind of glasses he would have.
26:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he found the exact ones that he wanted
26:59
Speaker 1: and he put them on the bust. And then that
27:02
Speaker 1: bust with the glasses was featured on America's Most Wanted.
27:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then someone was like, my neighbor has those glasses.
27:08
Speaker 1: Yes, it wasn't just the glasses. Well, a neighbor recognized
27:12
Speaker 1: him and reported him to authorities, and he was arrested
27:14
Speaker 1: on June first of nineteen eighty nine.
27:16
Speaker 2: And he had those glasses, he did, yeah, Yeah.
27:18
Speaker 1: He did so. According to the La Times Archives, his wife,
27:22
Speaker 1: Delores Clark, this is his you know, his new his
27:25
Speaker 1: new wife, his new his new life. Although he future
27:29
Speaker 1: he should have this is where he messed up. He
27:31
Speaker 1: should have not continued to wear the same glasses, because
27:34
Speaker 1: then he wouldn't have been recognized.
27:36
Speaker 2: Family.
27:37
Speaker 1: I know, I'm saying. I'm saying he evaded capture for
27:41
Speaker 1: eighteen years, and then the reason that the neighbor recognized
27:45
Speaker 1: them is because he continued to wear those same seventies
27:47
Speaker 1: style glasses. So anyway, according to the La Times Archives,
27:52
Speaker 1: his wife, Delores Clark, said that she was making her
27:55
Speaker 1: statement reluctantly and that she would have no further comment.
27:59
Speaker 1: She said she was shocked to hear about Bob's arrest
28:02
Speaker 1: and what he was charged with. This is not the
28:04
Speaker 1: man I know. The man I know is kind, loving,
28:08
Speaker 1: a devoted husband, and a dear friend. He is a quiet,
28:11
Speaker 1: yet friendly man who loves his work and the people
28:14
Speaker 1: he works.
28:15
Speaker 2: Family man.
28:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, he goes to church and you know all the things.
28:20
Speaker 2: His glasses and everything. He couldn't be a killer.
28:24
Speaker 1: One friend, unidentified by the newspaper said that John had
28:28
Speaker 1: told Dolores he had been married before to an alcoholic
28:31
Speaker 1: who had died of cancer. He told her she went
28:34
Speaker 1: through a slow, agonizing death. So this is what he
28:37
Speaker 1: told the new wife.
28:38
Speaker 2: She died in the ballroom in the house burned down.
28:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what and he forgot to mention his mother,
28:45
Speaker 1: his kids, and his three children.
28:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, had a great last football game. No soccer, soccer,
28:51
Speaker 2: soccer before family.
28:52
Speaker 1: This is either the most unbelievable mix up or he
28:56
Speaker 1: is the biggest con man who ever walked the Earth.
29:01
Speaker 3: Scenario.
29:02
Speaker 1: Yes, this was another unidentified friend who was interviewed, who
29:06
Speaker 1: told the paper in nineteen ninety he goes to trial.
29:11
Speaker 2: Wait, where's the forensics is it?
29:14
Speaker 1: That's the bus that was it was the bust. It
29:17
Speaker 1: that was the forensics. Yeah, well in the nineties, this
29:20
Speaker 1: is you know, this is forensic finance, right, so that
29:24
Speaker 1: was the forensics. I mean, this is forensics covers a lot,
29:29
Speaker 1: but it's not just DNA. So the forensics was the
29:32
Speaker 1: ability to make the bust and age progress it to
29:37
Speaker 1: look like what he would look like twenty years later,
29:40
Speaker 1: and to find the glasses that he would be wearing
29:42
Speaker 1: and to I think they even said he was probably
29:45
Speaker 1: working as an accountant or something because he has a
29:47
Speaker 1: finance background, and so you know, they were putting all
29:49
Speaker 1: that together. At trial, the defense argued that Liszt suffered
29:54
Speaker 1: from PTSD and psychological issues.
29:59
Speaker 3: Please bear be grief through this struggling time where my
30:03
Speaker 3: family is dead prosecutors.
30:05
Speaker 1: Privacy prosecutors emphasized that the murders were planned and deliberate.
30:11
Speaker 1: How do you know, I mean.
30:12
Speaker 3: It doesn't take a rocket science to figure that one out, right, I.
30:15
Speaker 1: Mean, talk about this may have planned more than a
30:17
Speaker 1: lot of people we talk about. I mean he had,
30:20
Speaker 1: he had all planned out who he was killing, who,
30:23
Speaker 1: the order he killed them in, placing them in the ballroom,
30:26
Speaker 1: turning the air conditioning.
30:27
Speaker 3: On, shopping the family photos, well, photoshop, seventies photoshoppers, parisisss.
30:34
Speaker 1: That's how you photoshopped in the seventies. That's how you
30:36
Speaker 1: photoshopped up until you know I used to photoshop in yearbooks.
30:40
Speaker 1: Is you just took a black marker and you.
30:42
Speaker 2: Just that's how you unfriended something?
30:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just you just blo Yes?
30:47
Speaker 2: How many?
30:47
Speaker 3: How many of your high school classmates have crossed out
30:51
Speaker 3: your photo in their years?
30:53
Speaker 1: I don't know. Should we take a poll if there's
30:55
Speaker 1: anyone out there listening from Madison.
30:58
Speaker 2: High School class ninety nine, class.
31:00
Speaker 1: In ninety nine?
31:01
Speaker 2: Yea, how many people were in your class? Oh?
31:03
Speaker 1: I thought you might have graduated in ninety one. I
31:05
Speaker 1: graduated in ninety four, and there were ninety nine people
31:08
Speaker 1: in my graduating class. Yes, what do you think? Ninety
31:11
Speaker 1: eight of them have crossed me out of the yearbooks
31:13
Speaker 1: so far. Thank you, Yes, I do. Wow. I was
31:21
Speaker 1: popular in high school.
31:22
Speaker 2: They you were popular in nice Yeah.
31:24
Speaker 1: I don't know about now, but I was then, all right.
31:30
Speaker 1: The jury found him guilty of all charges, and John
31:33
Speaker 1: Lyss was sent to five life terms in prison. Obviously,
31:37
Speaker 1: he got a life term for every one of his victims.
31:41
Speaker 1: In later interviews, John Lyss said that he believed killing
31:43
Speaker 1: his family ensured their place in heaven. That was so
31:46
Speaker 1: nice of him.
31:47
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very good. He wasn't worried about himself.
31:50
Speaker 1: No, no, he was the victim in all of this,
31:52
Speaker 1: and he was ensuring that.
31:53
Speaker 2: He was doing the hard work.
31:54
Speaker 1: He was. He was making sure that his family was
31:57
Speaker 1: going to make it to heaven, and that was very
32:00
Speaker 1: kind of him. He also said that he did not
32:03
Speaker 1: take his own life because he believed it would prevent
32:06
Speaker 1: his own salvation. See that is the most backwards thinking.
32:11
Speaker 3: Well, it's not he's just saying a bunch of he's
32:13
Speaker 3: spewing a bunch of crap.
32:16
Speaker 2: He's just saying whatever, right, because.
32:17
Speaker 1: He's saying suicide is bad. So I didn't take my
32:20
Speaker 1: own life because my then I won't be saved. Right.
32:24
Speaker 1: He's saying suicide is not going to get him into heaven.
32:26
Speaker 1: But he did like this kind act by killing his
32:28
Speaker 1: whole family because then they could enter the.
32:31
Speaker 3: It's not the case, clearly, it's I wanted to keep living,
32:34
Speaker 3: so I didn't kill myself, and.
32:36
Speaker 1: I wanted to get married again, and now I have.
32:38
Speaker 2: To explain it. So then he came up with some
32:41
Speaker 2: stupid explanation.
32:42
Speaker 1: A John List died of complications from devon. Yeah, he's dead.
32:47
Speaker 1: He died in prison in two thousand.
32:48
Speaker 3: And eight at the age of eighty two, so he's
32:51
Speaker 3: in prison for what twenty years?
32:53
Speaker 1: He went to prison in nineteen ninety yeah, and then
32:57
Speaker 1: he died in eighteen year. Yeah, he was in prison
33:01
Speaker 1: for eighteen years. So I guess there was some justice.
33:07
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening to till death do us Part.
33:09
Speaker 1: That was the case of John List and the murder
33:12
Speaker 1: of his family, And of course that is our PSA
33:17
Speaker 1: to our listeners. Divorce is always the better option. Who
33:20
Speaker 1: cares what society will say. You don't have to post
33:24
Speaker 1: it on Instagram.
33:25
Speaker 3: Because what's society saying about him? Once he got arrested.
33:27
Speaker 1: What a psychopath? Yeah, exactly, all right, thank you for listening.
33:32
Speaker 1: Till Death Do Us Part. You can find all of
33:34
Speaker 1: our episodes on the legally Brunette feed. Please be sure
33:38
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33:41
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Speaker 1: friends and family about Legally Brunette. Also, if you have
33:46
Speaker 1: any cases, especially husband and wife type cases that would
33:49
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33:52
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33:55
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33:58
Speaker 1: let me know if you watch Forensic File and let
34:00
Speaker 1: me know if you would be interested in a Forensic
34:02
Speaker 1: Files recap. So I think that would be fun, but
34:05
Speaker 1: I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well.
34:08
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34:20
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