Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / Brett Keane Live | Christian TTOR and Muslim Prophet Dan Talk Quran

Transcript

Brett Keane Live | Christian TTOR and Muslim Prophet Dan Talk Quran · Brett Keane and Eve Show

2:05
Tons of venom weaving lies spinning webs beneath blood red
2:10
skies to seek the crown. The hearts of stone betrayers
2:15
kneel on a self for throne. No mercy waits.
2:19
No truth to. Save their twisted words dig
2:23
their own grave. Flames rise high, the judgement
5:29
Well, hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Brett
5:32
Keane from GOD TV Radio. I hope you're all having a
5:36
blessed day. When you get an opportunity,
5:38
check out all my music and albums that are on the front
5:41
page of my YouTube channel. You can listen for absolutely
5:44
free if you prefer Spotify or many other different places,
5:49
there's over 100 outlets including iTunes, Amazon Music
5:53
and so on. Make sure you check out my radio
5:56
show and all that, and also I've written a book.
6:00
When you get an opportunity, also subscribe to TTOR Truth,
6:05
the Objective reality. Mr. TTOR, how you doing today?
6:10
Oh I am doing fantastic. Just taking it kind of easy
6:15
today. Some video gaming, working on
6:18
some stuff around the house, got a new cabinet put together for
6:22
all my towels and stuff so that was nice and got some pictures
6:27
hung and just taking it easy otherwise.
6:33
You recently basically had an outing you I wouldn't call it a
6:37
vacation because there was a lot of work involved.
6:40
You want to talk a little bit about that before we get into
6:42
topics? Are you talking about last week
6:46
when I was filming stuff for kids camp?
6:50
Yes. Yeah, well, maybe it's the week
6:55
before. Let me check my calendar.
7:00
That was two weeks ago. That's right.
7:03
Well, I'm TV producer, my church.
7:07
That's public knowledge. But part of doing my job is
7:11
during the summer when we have kids camp and as we're going to
7:14
have next week when we have our middle school, high school camp.
7:18
I basically become the guy who shows up and films about as much
7:23
as he can and then creates a little highlight video that gets
7:27
aired on Sunday the following week or gets aired at their next
7:31
little gathering on Wednesday night or whenever.
7:37
So yeah, I got spent a whole weekend 2 weeks ago working at
7:42
that camp taking video pictures. I got where I could, which was
7:46
rather few. Used other people's pictures as
7:49
well. It was fun.
7:51
It's always fun to see little kids being little kids.
7:57
That is awesome. And Speaking of church community
8:00
and and doing outings with religious folks and
8:04
fellowshipping, one of the topics I have that you might
8:07
find interesting is according to Gallup polls, if you believe any
8:11
of those, it says there's a declining belief in God.
8:16
Gallup shows fewer Americans believe in God, down from 87%
8:21
since 2016. What's your views on that?
8:26
Well, what's the current percentage now?
8:29
Well, according to this, if it's 87% down out of 100%, but I, I
8:37
have a theory on that myself. If you want to hear my theory
8:40
and then respond, we can do that.
8:43
Sure. Well, I think that a lot of
8:46
Christians nowadays, especially millennials and young people
8:51
have basically they've came towards social media.
8:56
I think a lot of people can watch, you know, guys like
8:59
yourself or me or the Kent Hovinds of the world and all
9:03
that. They can watch, you know,
9:05
scientists who have a, a godly background.
9:09
And when you have all that, kids nowadays love their phone.
9:12
They love to not have their parents say you better get up on
9:16
Sunday or you're going to be in serious trouble.
9:19
Now they can do it at their lease, and I think that
9:22
Christianity's going strong. I think it's just that people
9:26
aren't interested in getting up in the morning to go to churches
9:29
anymore. Yeah, I mean, that's always been
9:33
a part of it because most teenagers like to stay up all
9:36
night and sleep in till noon. So wanting to not go to church
9:41
on Sunday on the weekend would be understandable in that
9:44
regard. But I noticed over the last few
9:49
years that there's been a surgeons in people rejecting
9:53
atheism and embracing theism, specifically popular content
9:58
creators who are always part of that agnostic skeptical crowd
10:03
starting to embrace faith. But of course, the danger with
10:08
the modern age that we live in with social media is that a lot
10:12
of times these people end up converting to some kind of
10:16
heretical faith, like some form of Christian nationalism where
10:20
they have this bigotry towards Jews and they embrace
10:24
replacement theology, which is completely counter to the Bible
10:28
and everything it explicitly says.
10:30
And yet people who call themselves Christians in recent
10:34
years are falling into this kind of belief.
10:37
So I think even though it's good that a lot of people are
10:41
rejecting atheism and skepticism and starting to embrace faith
10:47
because of the access to information that comes from
10:50
modern technology and modern social media sites, the danger
10:55
is a lot of these people don't have the discernment to realize
10:58
whether or not what they're consuming is entirely true.
11:01
So it's kind of a double edged sword.
11:10
We seem to be having an issue. I don't know why, but it does
11:14
not appear as though this is live on YouTube.
11:19
It says it's live on both your channels.
11:23
I know I just clicked view on YouTube and it says that it's
11:29
still waiting. What about your other channel?
11:36
This is odd, it shows that I'm getting likes and everything
11:40
like that, but OK. Well, you have two channels that
11:44
you're streaming to. Yeah, I know.
11:48
I'm checking the other one right now.
11:49
This is odd. All right, so let me look at the
11:56
other one. It says that.
11:59
It says that we're going through on a, We're going through on a
12:06
different channel for sure, the one that's BK, but it's not
12:10
going through one that's odd. On your bigger one, yeah.
12:16
Yeah, it's, it's cool. I'll just, I'll run it as a
12:20
premier later and all that kind of stuff.
12:22
That's fine. The link is out there.
12:24
People know how to get in and I've already told people that
12:29
they can join. So there's that.
12:31
OK so you were talking about nationalism and people joining
12:36
these unusual like off spin offs of Christianity such as
12:41
nationalism. It's really weird because I
12:44
don't know if you knew this TTR but I was born in 1976 December
12:49
Christmas and in all of my years of existing on this earth I
12:54
never got a poll or a survey in the mail.
12:57
None of my family members ever got something asking if we still
13:01
believe in God for Christian or any of that.
13:05
So where the hell are they getting this?
13:07
I doubt that they're sending this out to teenagers from every
13:11
neighborhood, so how would they know who lacks a belief in God
13:15
or not? Right, it's probably some kind
13:19
of Internet based survey or text based survey if I had to guess.
13:23
I've never actually partaken in any of these polls, so I
13:26
couldn't tell you how they conduct them.
13:30
Another weird thing is too, there's another Gallup poll that
13:34
goes right along with it. There's two of them, actually,
13:36
One that says that being a part of faith and fellowship and
13:41
believing in God is actually statistically showed that it
13:45
helps with depression and also brings up people's health.
13:50
Now, how is that? How would they know this if
13:53
they're already claiming that, you know, there's such a major
13:55
decline in Christianity? I don't get that.
13:58
And the second of all is are stating that Christians are
14:02
blowing up in the music charts. So if Christianity's blowing up
14:06
in the music charts, who the Hell's going to the concerts?
14:10
Right? A bunch of atheists.
14:11
I'm. Sure, there's some atheists
14:15
there because good music is good music.
14:17
But yeah, I think there's a lot more Christians than people
14:21
would like to give credit to. But as I said before, just
14:30
because you claim Christ doesn't necessarily mean you are
14:33
Orthodox and of the true and living faith.
14:38
There's a lot of discernment that goes into whether or not
14:41
someone is truly saved based on the beliefs they hold relative
14:47
to the Bible. And that always has to be the
14:50
measuring stick of when you're looking at people who have
14:53
converted to the faith who who are professing Christians,
14:56
however long they've been doing it.
14:58
You always got to compare what they're saying to the
15:01
straightforward contextual reading of the Bible and
15:04
evaluate whether or not they are telling the truth and not
15:09
embracing heresies. Whether they know it or don't
15:12
know it. It's just a battle that
15:15
Christians have to endure. But yeah, definitely not a good
15:19
time to be an atheist or an agnostic.
15:22
Definitely not. So there's another thing here
15:29
that you might find interesting. Apparently there are people in
15:34
the churches that are narking on their preachers or their
15:37
pastors, whatever you want to call them, by claiming that a
15:40
lot of them are now using AI to generate sermons.
15:45
US pastors use AI for preaching, sparking authenticity.
15:51
Oh man, it's a tough word debate.
15:53
Authenticity. There you go.
15:56
See that's why I keep your on you keep me honest.
15:59
So what do you think about that? Is it wrong for them to use AI
16:04
to generate? It seems like it would help them
16:06
biblically and it would help them with a a decent message.
16:11
Well, using it as a research tool I'm sure is not a problem.
16:15
But if you're using AI to craft your entire sermon, and then you
16:19
preach what the AI made for you, that's a little more problematic
16:23
because it gives off the impression that you don't
16:26
actually study the Bible for yourself and you don't take the
16:30
painstaking steps necessary to put together your own sermon.
16:34
But then again, if there are pastors out there who are doing
16:37
that, it's not surprising because I'm sure we've all heard
16:41
about the stories about people who use the AI to write all
16:44
their college papers and do all their homework in school so that
16:47
they can spend more time playing video games and having fun.
16:52
Or like that One South Park episode, they were using ChatGPT
16:56
to write text messages back to their girlfriends so that they
17:00
didn't have to emotionally invest into that.
17:05
But yeah, that's that's been a common trope of the last couple
17:09
of years, a common stereotype regarding the use of AI.
17:15
So pastors using it to make their sermons that they give on
17:18
Sundays, that's not exactly a surprise because you study
17:23
history and especially biblical history.
17:27
People who call themselves Christians have been
17:29
compromising with the world ever since Jesus ascended back into
17:33
heaven following his resurrection from the dead.
17:37
And so naturally, you'll see Christians so-called conform to
17:41
the world in order to be a part of the world in some way.
17:46
And it seems like crap. Using AI to make your sermons
17:50
would be well, par for the course.
17:57
I have no idea why that didn't start.
18:00
I wonder if it only allows you to do 1 YouTube channel at a
18:04
time or something like that. That's odd.
18:08
It shouldn't. It shouldn't because you and I,
18:11
I have multiple YouTube channels going on a lot of my live
18:15
streams. It's never been a problem
18:17
before. Well, maybe it's because we're
18:20
separate accounts or something. Isn't like Google connected to,
18:25
well, I don't know. Let's take a look at some more
18:27
topics here. Some interesting stuff according
18:31
to the Now, this is interesting. Now remember that same Gallup
18:36
claimed that fewer Americans believe in God, Yet according to
18:41
the same deal, it says Christian voters are shaping GOP policies
18:46
in 2025. That's a bit of a conundrum,
18:52
isn't it, Brett? Somehow we're a shrinking
18:54
population and yet we have this outsized influence on one of the
18:58
major political parties in our country.
19:01
Kind of strange. It is.
19:06
It's very, very strange. We might actually get a Muslim
19:10
in him a little bit. He's a very eloquent with this
19:13
speech, so we won't have a hard time with this accent.
19:17
He said he would come in at some point in time, so that'd be
19:19
interesting. You get along with Muslims.
19:25
I don't know, I've barely interacted with them.
19:29
All right, fair enough, fair enough.
19:31
I've interacted with them. Seems like their big issue is it
19:38
seems to be the Trinity issues and all that.
19:41
Somebody called Eastgate is saying no, it isn't.
19:46
Let's see. Well, I'm on Brett Kane Live,
19:50
that alternate channel and you are currently live streaming to
19:54
it. Yeah, let me see if this link
19:57
is. It's just, it's just Brett's
20:00
other channel, his bigger channel that is not streaming.
20:05
Oh, I accidentally gave the wrong live link.
20:08
Hold on, do you have the can you post the link of the the Brett
20:13
Keene live? Are these folks I'll pin?
20:18
Be able. To I'll pin it up.
20:23
There we go. All right, there we go.
20:31
No, you probably should have put show is live there, but that'll
20:35
work. Yeah, that's true.
20:40
But yeah, rarely interacted with Muslims, so I can't say that I
20:46
get along with them or don't. Well, they it's.
20:49
Usually atheist like not go ahead.
20:53
Well, I was going to say, they seem to have a their big thing
20:56
they like to argue about is Trinity.
20:58
They have a hard time believing that Allah would come down as a
21:03
as a man and all that. They don't have a problem with
21:06
them talking to your animals or through a burning Bush or
21:09
something, but becoming a man, that's just too much for them.
21:14
And they also don't have a problem with the eternal word of
21:17
Allah becoming a physical book in reality.
21:21
But somehow the Trinity is just too far for them.
21:26
There you go. Perfect point.
21:29
Let's see what we got. All right.
21:32
OK, so here's church attendance drop.
21:35
It says only 20% of Americans attend weekly services.
21:39
Why the decline? And we talked about all those
21:43
other subjects. So I'm not really sure if this
21:45
poll is telling the truth or not.
21:48
So like 20% of Americans who actually go to church every
21:52
week? Yeah, that's what they're
21:56
claiming weekly. Right, because there are some
22:00
people who, they go to church quite a bit, but every once in a
22:03
while they don't show up. Like they might go to a
22:06
different church one Sunday or they're on vacation or any
22:11
number of things can happen. So I guess that kind of makes
22:16
sense. Only 20% of American Christians
22:19
actually going to their church each and every single week?
22:23
That actually kind of makes sense.
22:26
Right, Exactly. All right.
22:30
So apparently there's been some issues with mega church
22:34
scandals. What do you prefer, smaller
22:37
churches or mega churches? Do you think mega churches can
22:40
be a problem? Well, I think one of the biggest
22:44
problem with a mega church is that there's just way too many
22:47
people in order to form close bonds with people.
22:52
Like it's easy to get lost in the mix and not be not able to
22:58
form close fellowship relationships with other
23:02
Christians. Smaller churches tend to be
23:04
easier for that to happen because there's a lot fewer
23:07
people and you're able to connect with leadership in a way
23:11
that you might not be able to in a larger mega church.
23:14
And so there's a better opportunity in smaller churches
23:17
for quality fellowship and forming real friendships with
23:23
other believers and the leaders of your church.
23:26
Whereas in a mega church, it's not impossible, it's just really
23:29
hard to do because there's just so many people attending and
23:33
it's hard to get time with church leadership in that kind
23:36
of setting. So just that alone makes mega
23:40
churches a more difficult environment to be a part of for
23:43
a lot of people, regardless of whether that mega church is
23:46
Orthodox and their teachings or not.
23:49
It's just a logistics. Issue.
23:56
That's fair enough. Looks like our Muslim friend
23:58
will be coming in soon. He just left a comment.
24:02
Let me know, let me see. Let's get this link here.
24:11
OK, let me put We are live here. We are live here.
24:29
Goodness gracious. All right, so let's see what we
24:32
got here. Gen.
24:35
Z Spiritual shift Young Americans favor eclectic
24:39
spirituality over organized religion.
24:43
Why do you think that is? I need to know what eclectic
24:47
means. I guess that it sounds like it's
24:51
Pagan druidism, that kind of stuff.
24:55
Well, the way the way it reads off is that it makes it sound
24:59
like they don't like having to adhere to certain standards and
25:04
rules, because that's something a lot of people, they like to
25:08
hear, the fluffy stuff that Christianity teaches on the
25:11
outside. But when it comes to anything of
25:14
substance that might challenge you or hold you accountable, a
25:17
lot of people tend to shy away from that.
25:22
So yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that that's probably
25:27
the case with these people because having to actually
25:32
adhere to what the Bible teaches and records, no matter how
25:36
offensive or ridiculous some people might consider those
25:39
things to be, is a big ask for a lot of people.
25:44
So it's easier to just adhere to some form of spirituality.
25:49
That's why I hear people say, oh, I'm spiritual, not
25:52
religious. Being spiritual basically allows
25:56
you to pick and choose what you want to adhere to and what you
25:59
want to believe, and basically avoid the kind of accountability
26:03
that would come with fully adhering to a biblical Christian
26:07
worldview. Or that concept would even work
26:11
in other religions. Because you could use that kind
26:14
of logic to avoid being a completely faithful Muslim or
26:19
avoid being a completely faithful Mormon or Jehovah's
26:22
Witness or whatever, but most of the time it's applied to the
26:26
Christian biblical worldview. In your church or anyone you're
26:33
related to, are they non believer and what is that like
26:36
to deal with especially non believers that are coming to
26:39
church to change their minds? Well, people come and go at my
26:46
church quite a bit. So it's hard and it's really
26:49
hard to tell whether or not somebody is a believer or not,
26:53
at least from my perspective. Because I'm usually in the
26:56
backroom getting ready to live stream the services and handling
27:00
any little tech issues that come up.
27:02
So I'm not able to be out there getting a thumb, my thumb on the
27:08
on the vibes that people are putting out and listening to
27:11
their conversations and whatnot. But yeah, the main problem that
27:18
some people have who might not be believers, but they are
27:21
curious or they're seeking is that in a lot of churches, it's
27:25
really easy for them to basically come in, hide out in
27:29
the back, and then just leave and not make any kind of
27:32
meaningful connection or not even have someone say hi or talk
27:36
to them. So sometimes unbelievers can be
27:40
in our midst and we don't even realize it.
27:42
And they don't feel like they're welcomed or they're loved or
27:49
that that Christians even want them to be there because they're
27:52
not getting any kind of engagement from people.
27:56
And so engaging people who come through your door is an
28:00
important thing because they might just be a Christian
28:03
looking for a new church home, or they might be an unbeliever
28:06
seeking God in some way. So engaging people at church, I
28:11
think is the important thing to do.
28:16
Well, it says that Mormonism is actually growing.
28:19
It's expanding outward. What do you think?
28:22
Mormonism is getting popular if these any of these polls are
28:26
correct. Well, Mormonism is appealing to
28:31
those who fall into it because it gives you a measure of
28:36
control, allegedly, over your salvation.
28:40
One of the basic ideas that they teach of Mormonism is that you
28:44
do everything you can, and then the grace of Jesus covers up for
28:48
what you couldn't do. So the idea is that you actually
28:52
have some measure of control over your salvation.
28:55
Basically, you're responsible for at least part of your
28:58
salvation, and not all of the credit can go to God only.
29:02
Of course the problem with that is according to the New
29:05
Testament, God doesn't share his glory with anyone and he makes
29:09
it clear in both the Old and New Testaments that there is nothing
29:12
you can do in terms of good works to earn 1 inch one drop of
29:18
your salvation. As a matter of fact, when you're
29:20
not a believer, any good works you do or nothing but filthy
29:24
rags to the Lord. So yeah, Mormonism is definitely
29:30
false from a biblical perspective just on that alone,
29:34
because Jesus, the Bible as a whole, makes it clear that you
29:38
can't earn your salvation. God does all of the work because
29:42
he doesn't share his glory of anyone.
29:44
All we have to do is accept his offer of forgiveness and submit
29:49
to him, and that's all we got to do.
29:52
But Mormonism, there's a whole bunch of things you got to do.
29:56
And basically the idea is that you have to earn your salvation
30:00
as much as possible. And it's only when you reach the
30:03
end and you haven't quite earned your salvation all the way that
30:08
Jesus steps in and takes care of the rest.
30:10
But until you get to that point where you're dead and Mormonism,
30:14
you're basically expected to earn your salvation for all
30:17
practical purposes because you have to do certain things.
30:21
You know, you have to be a part of your ward and you have to
30:24
fulfill certain requirements and doctrines in your life.
30:28
And if you're part of that fundamentalist Mormonism
30:31
movement, you have to practice polygamy because Joseph Smith
30:35
said that if you didn't, you wouldn't get to go to the
30:37
highest level of heaven in their little religious worldview.
30:42
So yeah, Mormonism is very much a works based religion, and the
30:46
Bible condemns works based religion, pure and simple.
30:52
Now, what if somebody accepts Christ and they say all the
30:56
stuff, but then later on in their life they change their
30:59
views or something happens? You hear all these stories about
31:04
atheists having tragedies or something going on in their life
31:07
that made them question. Take a guy for example.
31:11
I've heard people use Matt Dillahunty as an example.
31:15
He claims that he used to be a preacher, was saved, all that
31:18
stuff. What what is the case with him?
31:21
Is he still saved? That comes down to that once
31:26
saved, always saved doctrine, it sounds like, because there are
31:31
some people out there who do think that all you have to do at
31:35
some point in your life is merely professed faith in
31:38
Christ. And then even if you fall away,
31:42
you backslide and you basically become a hedonistic Pagan or a
31:46
hedonistic atheist for the rest of your life until you die.
31:51
You're still going to heaven because that one time you
31:53
professed faith in Christ gets you into heaven even though you
31:57
had zero fruit to show for it your whole life.
32:01
And as you know, biblically speaking, fruit in your life is
32:05
something that has to happen if you are saved.
32:09
It doesn't necessarily need to be a lot of fruits, but there
32:13
has to be some kind of fruit in your life if you're saved.
32:16
Because if you're saved, the evidence of your salvation is
32:20
that you will start to do the fruit of good works, things that
32:24
you weren't doing before you were saved.
32:27
That's the kind of thing that we're looking for when it comes
32:31
to whether or not someone's a Christian and judging whether or
32:33
not they're saved. And so we look at that and come
32:38
to those conclusions. Now you're talking about someone
32:41
who used to be a Christian but then D converted into like
32:44
atheism or agnosticism. Because Matt Dillahunty is not
32:48
unique in his case. He's basically a dime a dozen
32:51
among most of the Internet atheists because a lot of them
32:55
claim they used to be Christians or they used to be creationists
32:58
before they fell away from their faith and became who they are
33:02
today, basically running a YouTube channel speaking out
33:05
against everything they used to believe, allegedly.
33:09
And that's a problem biblically speaking to because when you
33:13
read the Gospels and you read Jesus specifically, and I
33:17
believe it's John chapter 10, Jesus says that his sheep belong
33:21
to him, that no one can snatch them out of his hand.
33:27
So if you can be snatched out of his Jesus's hand via
33:32
deconversion, well then the logical conclusion a Bible
33:36
believing Christian has to come to is that that person was never
33:41
truly saved, no matter how much they may have professed it at
33:46
some point. So with that in mind, that's why
33:51
when we look at people like Matt Dillahunty or Apologia or Vice
33:56
Rhino or any one of these Internet atheists or religious
34:01
skeptics who claims they used to be Christians before they became
34:05
who they are today. Well, we have to conclude that
34:09
they were never truly saved to begin with.
34:12
Because if they could fall away like that, then Jesus would be
34:18
wrong when he says that nobody can snatch them out of his hand.
34:22
His his sheep, his true followers.
34:25
So that's why. That's why Christians respond
34:28
the way they do to atheists and religious skeptics who claim
34:31
they used to be Christians. I was looking at troubleshooting
34:38
for why it may have not showed up and it says that sometimes
34:41
the megabytes or whatever it takes nor to run stream yards it
34:47
if you don't have enough, sometimes 1 won't start.
34:50
So I'll have to do some tests later probably.
34:53
Daniel, it's OK that you got in a little bit late.
34:56
I didn't. I don't usually expect people to
34:58
drop in right in the very second I start.
35:01
Glad to have you in. You look like you're a lot more
35:04
awoke now. Last time I talked to you, I was
35:07
worried because you said you had to go somewhere and I'm like,
35:09
man, this guy's barely keeping it alive.
35:12
How's he going to drive? Yeah, how are you, Brad?
35:20
Sorry for being late. I'm wondering how I go about
35:23
getting an awesome microphone like that.
35:25
Goodness gracious. The Internet.
35:29
So you're able to hear me? Yes, I can hear you.
35:32
Can you hear me? Yeah, OK.
35:34
Yeah, everything is good, Yeah. I put you up on the big screen
35:40
alongside my buddy TTOR. As beautiful as I am, I rather
35:44
see other people whenever I'm talking, so it's all good.
35:48
Can you see me? My little head right there.
35:51
Yeah, we see. We see you peeking out, Brett.
35:54
All right, so tell us a little bit about yourself, Daniel.
35:58
I didn't get a chance to get to know you because people were
36:00
busy picking on Kevin whenever we started talking.
36:06
Yeah, just yeah. So the stream.
36:14
So basically I'm a Muslim. I come from a Muslim Islamic
36:22
background. I have studied the Quran for
36:27
significant time say like over 22 years of proper research,
36:37
type study and also learning the language of the Quran, the
36:44
classical Arabic in which it is documented which no more is like
36:53
spoken on the same level as that of the Quran except for
37:00
religious circles. So in in Arabia, for example,
37:05
people don't commonly speak it, but people of religion, like the
37:11
religious groups or peoples involved in theology and things
37:15
like that, they might speak that language.
37:20
But yeah, it is a it was a journey to learning as a Muslim,
37:27
people get exposed to the Arabic language of the Koran quite
37:31
early. So was I like as a kid you begin
37:35
learning how to read the Quran in Arabic language.
37:40
So I learned reading quite early but I would not understand it
37:46
because it was not a spoken language and up until when I was
37:51
like an adult wanting to learn how it is understood.
37:56
So when I was like 18 ish 1819 around my university is when I
38:02
am wondering how it what it means.
38:06
So I'm going into taking lessons and learning basically the
38:11
language, the framework of the language, the gram, the grammar,
38:15
the conjugations, and you know, all of that sort of stuff.
38:20
I, I visited your, I visited your channel and I noticed
38:24
you've got a lot of imagery having to do with Jesus Christ.
38:29
Does that cause you any trouble with the other Muslims?
38:32
Because I've heard that some Muslims or at least some brand
38:35
of Islam doesn't like artwork and some of the pretty stuff you
38:39
got on your channel. I think it's great looking.
38:42
I love seeing some Jesus stuff. Yeah.
38:46
I mean, I don't think that this is that necessarily poses a
38:48
problem or an issue I was getting I was getting there.
38:53
So what really happens is after I'm learning, I was introduced
38:58
to the Bible even before I'm I'm like, I'm like, you know,
39:06
properly studying the Quran even before that I was introduced to
39:09
other to the Bible. You can say around the same
39:13
time, you know, I'm I'm getting introduced to the Bible.
39:16
You I mean, we all understand, like going into the scriptures
39:21
is not going to give us knowledge straight away.
39:24
I mean, it's a struggle. It's a journey people have to
39:26
take. And I have not yet understood
39:31
the Quran and I have the Bible in my hand and I'm reading the
39:34
Bible and I stumble over some of the verses, not so nice verses
39:43
about the prophet Ishmael. And I'm like, oh, I don't want
39:50
to read the Bible because the Bible is pejorative to Ishmael.
39:55
That's my first impression that I can recollect reading the
39:59
Bible. So and then I did not read the
40:03
Bible for quite some time and I just kept reading the Quran and
40:08
trying to understand it. But something different was
40:11
happening to me when I was reading the Quran.
40:14
The Quran was telling me to go and read the Bible.
40:17
I'm like what? I mean, why does the Quran tell
40:21
me so many times to go and read the Bible?
40:23
Like OK, I can't get to the point.
40:27
Smokey 64654 I will get there in a minute.
40:31
OK in some time, like in five to 10 minutes.
40:36
So the Quran was kept telling me go and read the Bible.
40:40
God gave the scriptures to Moses, Jesus, David and all of
40:43
them, the rest of the prophets. And it's God who gave the
40:48
scriptures to Jesus. It's God who gave the scriptures
40:50
to Moses. So you got to read it.
40:52
You got to believe in it, You got to read it.
40:54
So I'm like, OK, and I start reading the Bible and moving
40:59
away from, you know, the pejorative stuff, just going
41:06
beyond it, reading, reading and reading.
41:09
And I understood to be the word of God because you just keep
41:14
reading and you understand it's the word of God.
41:17
And but of course are. You saying that you accept the
41:21
Bible as well as the Quran Sir? But there's a difference.
41:27
The Bible to me is not a verbatim word of God.
41:31
And unlike the Quran, the Quran to me is a verbatim word of God.
41:36
Not so much the Bible. But the Bible has chunks and
41:40
chunks of words of God like the verbatim word of God.
41:43
But at the same time, the Bible also has the words of the
41:46
scribes which are not verbatim word of God, if that makes
41:49
sense. Want to answer that question of
41:51
you. OK so but it sounds like you're
41:55
saying that while you read the Quran, and I understand you're
41:59
working with the language here, but while you were reading the
42:01
Quran you felt moved by God to read the Bible as well.
42:07
Did did did Allah want you to find something wrong with it or
42:12
accept it as also holy scripture?
42:16
No to to basically accept it as Holy Scriptures.
42:19
And that's why I accept it as Holy Scriptures.
42:24
But we all understand that the biblical documentation is not
42:29
verbatim. We all understand that.
42:31
I mean, I'm sure you understand that also.
42:36
What are you hoping that I'll understand?
42:38
Try that one more time. Sorry about that.
42:42
So like we all understand the biblical scriptures not to be
42:45
the word baiting words of God because prophet Jeremiah himself
42:49
goes and says your the pen of the lying, the lying pen of the
42:55
scribes has written the scriptures.
42:58
So prophet Jeremiah is alluding to the scribes for writing
43:03
scriptures with a lying pen. At the same time, there are
43:07
scriptures, the words of God, but they are not to be taken as
43:11
verbatim words of God. So what parts do you take as
43:16
God? I mean, it's not as
43:23
straightforward to say that you have to be.
43:28
You have to have the insights of seeing in the scriptures the
43:36
explanatory text of the scribes. So the scribes do explain it a
43:42
little bit after coding God or you know, where you know, the
43:49
text quite frequently says this is what the Lord says, right?
43:53
And it goes and quotes the Lord So and other than that, you can
43:59
see the scribes are also working in it to explain the scriptures
44:03
from their own point of view, right?
44:06
So you have this, you know, a mixture of, you know, advice,
44:17
but some of it is also from the scribes themselves.
44:22
So it's not as straightforward. But, but the Quran does say, I
44:27
mean it, it makes a categorical statement saying there is light,
44:32
there's enlightenment and there is guidance.
44:36
Both of these components are there in the Bible, both the
44:40
Gospels and the prophets. So there is enlightenment in
44:45
them and there is guidance in them.
44:48
Daniel, I don't know if you hear me clearly.
44:51
I forgive me. I should have introduced you.
44:53
We've got another user in the room by the name of truth, the
44:56
objective reality TTOR, and I think that he would like to
45:00
build talk to you. He had said earlier that he
45:03
hasn't had much interaction with Muslims and this might be
45:07
interesting. I want to tell you the Daniel, I
45:10
want to make this clear. We're not a fight room or a
45:12
drama room. We will like meeting people.
45:15
I'm not saying that where we've hung out is bad, but in here we
45:20
try to have chill conversation. So don't be nervous.
45:24
You're amongst friends all right.
45:26
Not a problem at all and thank you for tipping me off.
45:30
So Daniel mentioned that not the entire Bible is the word of God
45:35
referring to Old and New Testament, that only chunks of
45:38
it are. And I kind of am confused by
45:41
that because when I read Sura 5 verses 43 through 47, I get a
45:46
very different idea. And I just want to read that
45:49
passage out loud so that everyone watching knows what
45:52
passage of the Quran we're talking about.
45:55
And then we can have Daniel explain why it says what it
45:59
says, but the passage itself says.
46:03
But why do they come to you for judgment when they already have
46:07
the Torah containing Allah's judgment?
46:09
Then they turn away. After all, they are not true
46:12
believers. Indeed, We revealed the Torah
46:15
containing guidance and light, by which the Prophets who
46:18
submitted themselves to Allah made judgments for Jews.
46:22
So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to
46:25
Allah's Book, which they were entrusted and of which they were
46:28
made keepers. So do not fear the people, fear
46:31
me, nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain.
46:35
And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are
46:38
truly the disbelievers We ordained for them in the Torah a
46:42
life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear
46:46
for an ear, a tooth for a tooth and for wounds.
46:49
Equal retaliation. But whoever waves it charitably,
46:54
it will be atonement for them. And those who do not judge by
46:56
what Allah has revealed are truly the wrongdoers.
47:00
Then in the footsteps of the Prophets, We sent Jesus son of
47:04
Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him.
47:07
And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light
47:11
and confirming what was revealed in the Torah.
47:13
A guide and a lesson to the God fearing so that the people of
47:18
the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it, and those
47:22
who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are truly the
47:25
rebellious. So in this passage we see Allah
47:29
through the Prophet Muhammad say that the Torah is a revelation
47:34
of Allah that was revealed and that Jews are to judge by it.
47:39
But then he says that Jesus brought us the Gospel, which is
47:44
commonly understood to be referring to the New Testament,
47:47
and that this New Testament, this gospel, confirms the
47:51
revelation revealed before him in the Torah.
47:55
And therefore, Christians and Jews are commanded by Allah to
48:00
judge by what has been revealed by Allah in the Old Testament,
48:04
in the New Testament, which is called the gospel here in this
48:08
instance. And so when I hear you say that
48:11
parts of the Bible are either corrupt or they're not the word
48:15
of God in some way, shape or form, it seems to contradict
48:19
what your God and your prophet are saying.
48:26
As as you can see too, we actually are commanded by a lot
48:30
to judge by what our books say. Because if we don't, then we are
48:34
truly the rebellious, We're truly the wrongdoers.
48:38
We're truly the disbelievers. So there's actually a penalty
48:42
for me, according to Islam, if I don't accept the things that are
48:46
in my Bible. And so I'm wondering, how do you
48:49
reconcile this passage with what you were saying before?
48:54
Go ahead, mess with Daniel. My position is not contradictory
48:59
to those passages of the Quran for the reason that the judgment
49:11
that's found in the Torah and in the in jail applies to the
49:18
public affairs where people have disputes and they seek out
49:24
justice and fairness. So when it when the Quran says
49:30
judge your affairs, it's basically saying, you know, the
49:35
jurisdiction, the legislative process has to meet the standard
49:41
of Torah and the Gospel. So if you do not have your
49:47
communities, you know, receive justice and fairness through the
49:52
statutes of Torah and the Gospel, then you're guilty of a
49:57
crime before the Lord, right? So that's what the passage is
50:03
referring to. So when I say the scripture is
50:08
not verbatim documented, I'm only saying what prophet
50:12
Jeremiah says, right. The prophet Jeremiah goes on
50:16
says the lying pen of the scribes has written down the
50:19
scriptures. So a lot of the stories in in
50:24
the in both in the Gospels and in the Old Testament and the
50:27
prophets may have been manipulated by the scribes, but
50:33
not the judgement of God. The judgement of God is still
50:35
found in the Torah and in the Gospels.
50:38
So when the Christian communities organize public
50:42
affairs, legislative processes, and juridical processes, they
50:47
are required to be obedient to the words of God.
50:51
They have the books of God, the Torah and the Gospel.
50:53
And the Jewish people are required to be in line acting
50:58
within the framework of the Torah they have and the prophets
51:04
you know they have. So.
51:06
There is no cost, Daniel and Daniel, the from what I just
51:10
listened to what TTR read and what I'm seeing on the screen,
51:14
you're saying that it was talking about something
51:17
specifically with it having to do with judgment or whatever or
51:20
the order of the day. But the problem is, is that the
51:23
lines are very clear. It says the Torah, it doesn't
51:28
say, but part of the Torah are 20% of the Torah.
51:32
It says the Torah. Which gives me the literal idea
51:36
that it's speaking about the whole thing in its entirety.
51:39
Am I incorrect? TTOR.
51:43
The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament.
51:48
But many times in the Islamic texts we see it referred to the
51:52
entire Old Testament. And since he brought up the
51:56
prophet Jeremiah, which obviously Jeremiah's writings
51:59
were not part of the first five books of the Bible, then we have
52:03
to conclude that the Torah he's referring to and that the text
52:06
is referring to, as we see in other cases, is referring to the
52:10
entirety of the Old Testament. Which Jeremiah is actually an
52:14
interesting example that Daniel brought up.
52:17
Because in Jeremiah 31, verses 31 through 34, God reveals
52:23
through Jeremiah that there is coming a new covenant to replace
52:27
the old covenant, which the old covenant is the Old Testament.
52:32
And when we get into the New Testament gospels, we see at the
52:35
Last Supper Jesus says that he has established that new
52:39
covenant. And then when you read Hebrews
52:42
chapter 8 in the New Testament, we get more detail about that
52:47
new covenant and how basically it was essential to replace the
52:51
old one. So if we're comparing biblical
52:55
texts to Quranic texts, then we have to conclude that the Old
53:01
and New Testaments in their entirety are the revealed words
53:06
of a law. And that Christians and Jews
53:09
should judge not just various disputes among themselves in
53:14
some legal sense, but they should judge everything relative
53:18
to their faith by these revealed texts that came from a law.
53:24
I don't think you are necessarily understanding the
53:28
context of that of those passages in the Quran for the
53:34
fact that even when the Quran is asking Prophet Muhammad to
53:41
judge, the context really being there was a dispute with the
53:45
people of the book who came to get a judgement from the Prophet
53:49
Muhammad, right? When there was a dispute, right?
53:51
So it's not a theological judgement that God is asking you
53:55
to make or draw. It is a judgement as concerns
53:59
justice and fairness between people's disputes.
54:03
So when litigants come posing a problem requiring adjudication,
54:10
that's when you you know, you adjudicate based on the guidance
54:17
you have the guidance of God, the you know, the meters, the
54:21
measures, the measure of justice and the measure of righteousness
54:24
that should come from from the Scriptures.
54:29
So basically, if read in context, it becomes clearly
54:33
apparent, it becomes very apparent that this is talking
54:37
about this resolving disputes and litigations, not really an
54:42
entirety of a holistic or an ontological stance of a
54:48
reference. You know, it's not an
54:50
ontological reference, you know, assertion or a claim or a
54:57
statement. It is not.
54:59
It is very limited to the context of people seeking
55:02
justice and fairness. I'm a little confused now too
55:08
because according to the Yusuf Ali translation of Surah 5417 it
55:14
says that and we have indeed made the Quran easy to
55:19
understand and remember. Then is there any that will
55:22
receive admonition? So according to Allah, the Quran
55:27
is not just easy to remember, it's easy to understand.
55:31
Meaning that the straightforward contextual reading of the Quran
55:36
is exactly what Allah means. So when I see Allah and serve
55:40
543 through 47 saying that the Old and New Testaments are his
55:45
word and that Christians and Jews are to judge by them, well
55:48
then I think that's pretty easy to understand.
55:52
At that point. I I don't think I need to
55:54
reinterpret a law's words. May Ioffer you both a suggestion
55:59
real quick first is for TTURTTUR.
56:02
May I suggest that you put some kind of like a towel or some
56:07
kind of texture under your keyboard whenever you're typing
56:11
because it gets really loud and it kind of cuts off the voice a
56:14
little bit. Or there's the possibility of
56:17
muting just to say. And that Daniel, you are always
56:20
welcome as well as other users out there to connect your
56:24
YouTube channels to stream whenever I'm doing stuff.
56:28
But can you make sure that you do it before we go live?
56:32
That way it gets everything in its context.
56:35
You know, you wouldn't want me to come in like halfway through
56:37
and do that because then people wouldn't even know what we're
56:40
talking about, right? But let's let's continue on.
56:44
And if you'd like to answer his question, thank you TTOR for
56:47
fixing the frame. You're welcome.
56:53
OK, so when we go into the context, go into verse #43.
57:00
So verse #43 reads, why do they even appeal to you for judgement
57:06
when they possess the Torah of Moses?
57:09
So it is exactly as I'm telling you when people, when litigants
57:13
came requesting adjudication in their dispute, right?
57:19
So that's when these verses are being given.
57:21
So verse #43 clearly states, why do they even appeal to you for
57:26
judgement when they possess the Torah of Moses?
57:29
Therein is found God's legal commands.
57:31
Yet after such conveniences, they turn away from it.
57:34
And such folk aren't sincere believers.
57:37
Indeed, verse #44 indeed, we have revealed the Torah of Moses
57:44
there in his guidance and enlightenment.
57:46
The prophets in their submission to God judged Jewish public
57:49
affairs by its standard. They're Lords of law and their
57:52
scholars were entrusted with the duty to protect the book of God,
57:56
and they were witnesses over it, telling them do not fear men,
58:01
instead fear me. Do not trade my teachings for
58:04
worldly exchanges. Those who do, those who do not
58:07
judge according to the the revelation sent by God, they are
58:12
the unbelievers. Verse #45 For them we legislated
58:16
equality of life for life, eye for an eye, nose for a nose, ear
58:20
for an ear, tooth for a tooth, and any hurt in equal
58:24
retribution. But whoever foregoes revenge
58:27
will help serve for his atonement.
58:29
And any who does not judge by the standards revealed of God,
58:33
then such are the wrongdoers. Verse #46 We had Jesus the son
58:38
of Mary succeed in exact footsteps confirming the earlier
58:41
scriptures of the Torah of Moses, and we gave him the
58:44
Injeel, the Gospel in which there is guidance and
58:47
enlightenment. It confirms the earlier
58:49
scriptures in the possession of the Torah as a guide and
58:53
brilliant counsel to the God fearing.
58:55
Verse #47 So let the people of Injeel Gospel judge their public
59:00
affairs with its contents, which God has cabled, and any who do
59:05
not judge with its contents, which God has revealed become
59:08
the disobedient sinners. So it's exactly as I said, the
59:14
context is of litigants of a dispute.
59:17
When people come asking for adjudication, that's when these
59:21
teachings are being given. So we have, we cannot peel out
59:25
these passages from its context and then have an ontological
59:30
view of a wholesome judgment which includes theological
59:35
concepts. Well, it is not.
59:37
So I think this is where people who think of Islamic dilemma,
59:42
they actually go wrong because they don't compartmentalize the
59:45
judgment to civil affairs and the theological creed.
59:52
They understand judgment as a wholesome ontological concept
59:56
involving both theology and civil affairs, which is not the
59:59
case. The Quran is very specific.
1:00:01
It's contextual. The context is when litigants
1:00:05
came asking for justice and fairness, their dispute to be
1:00:10
adjudicated. So it's pretty clear.
1:00:12
So the context is set in verse #43.
1:00:16
Well, there's other passages in the Quran as well, like in 544
1:00:20
it says indeed, we sent down the Torah and which was guidance and
1:00:26
light. I mean, it's actually saying
1:00:28
that it is divine. It is, it is a guiding light for
1:00:32
humanity. So I mean, how would you be able
1:00:35
to suggest that or imply what you just said with it actually
1:00:38
seeing it came directly from God?
1:00:42
I mean, there's no doubt that Torah was given by Almighty God,
1:00:46
the Injeel and the prophets, you know, they received their books
1:00:49
from Almighty God, Absolutely. There is no doubt in it.
1:00:53
It's just the same way as the Quran was given, right?
1:00:56
But the way the Quran got documented and the way that the
1:01:00
books of the Bible were documented, there is a
1:01:03
difference there. It took quite some time, like a
1:01:06
Millennium almost, for the the Hebrew Scriptures to be
1:01:16
accumulated into what is called as the Septuagint.
1:01:20
The Greek translation. It was done after quite a while,
1:01:23
right? It was not done immediately.
1:01:26
The fragments of the Hebrew Scriptures are not even extent
1:01:30
anymore. Those fragments have been lost.
1:01:33
Even Septuagint itself has been lost.
1:01:35
But what we have is a succession of those manuscripts into
1:01:40
various other versions. And as you know, the Mesoretic
1:01:43
text was only finalized or canonized in the 10th century.
1:01:48
So it almost took a couple of millenniums, like 2000 years for
1:01:53
them to canonize the Mesoretic text.
1:01:57
So it's not the same as the Quran.
1:02:01
In fact, the Quran was documented pretty quick, like
1:02:04
very quick. And there is an, there is also a
1:02:07
very strong oral tradition with the Quran.
1:02:11
And therefore we have the Quran very intact.
1:02:13
Like you don't have textual variants, you know, except for
1:02:18
typographical errors that people who are investigating the
1:02:23
Quranic manuscripts, the people such as Mark England, Putin,
1:02:27
he's a European, obviously a secular person.
1:02:30
I don't know. I don't think he's a believer,
1:02:33
but he does a great deal of work in pulling out the early Quran,
1:02:39
the origins of the early Quran, the documentation of it.
1:02:43
So he concedes the fact that the Quran has been documented unlike
1:02:47
anything like it's highly accurate documentation.
1:02:52
So what? But on the other hand, what we
1:02:54
find is we do find variations, sometimes chapters missing,
1:02:59
sometimes verses missing from different Bible manuscripts.
1:03:06
So there is a clear difference between the two texts, how they
1:03:08
were preserved. And therefore, you know, the
1:03:12
verbatim words of God, as Jeremiah himself says that the
1:03:16
scribes have basically used their lying pen.
1:03:22
Jeremiah said, I don't know why he said that.
1:03:25
I do know the implications of that statement.
1:03:28
But I would like to hear from your side.
1:03:29
What do you think what Jeremiah really meant?
1:03:33
And the people who confuse Islamic, you know, the Islamic
1:03:39
dilemma thing, that's a big talk of town these days on the
1:03:42
Internet. Why I'm not, I haven't really
1:03:45
got into the dilemma thing and all this you're actually, I
1:03:48
haven't spoken to Muslims for about a month and a half.
1:03:51
I used to hang out with brother Maverick and do that.
1:03:54
It's I have no doubts or disagreement that the Bible's
1:03:57
went through a lot of a lot of wars, a lot of stuff throughout
1:04:01
the years. But what you're saying about the
1:04:03
Quran never having any kind of issues, I find that a bit
1:04:07
strange because I'm kind of a fan of history and I believe
1:04:10
that pages and some of it was actually set on fire.
1:04:15
I forget how to pronounce the the Muslim who did this in order
1:04:20
to try to lead the Muslims themselves.
1:04:23
Do you recall what I'm talking about?
1:04:26
Well, I, I personally did burning of the Quranic pages
1:04:31
quite a lot like that was the usual procedure.
1:04:35
Like we have the books that we read.
1:04:38
And after a while, you know, when lots of students come and
1:04:40
read the books, they open, close, open, close and the, the
1:04:44
book of the Quran begins to shred, right?
1:04:46
It the pages fall off. So the basic procedure, how we
1:04:50
destroy or you know, what do you call, you know, destroying the
1:04:54
documents, shredding, right, shredding the the, the basic
1:04:58
procedure for shredding back in the day was we would burn it up,
1:05:03
right? You don't throw, you don't
1:05:05
scatter the pages here and there.
1:05:06
You collect all the pages that have fallen and you burn them
1:05:09
up. So burning the Quran is not been
1:05:12
an issue because it is done for preservation, not out of
1:05:18
disrespect. Like, you know, what basically
1:05:20
people object to is when people disrespect that they have to
1:05:24
burn down the Quran for some, for some, you know, for some
1:05:29
reason, right, they don't like it or whatever it is.
1:05:32
That's when there is a, there is an issue.
1:05:34
But otherwise, back in the day when I was a little kid, the
1:05:38
usual procedure for shredding the documents was burning them
1:05:41
down, right? So I understand where you come
1:05:44
from, the 1st century when the Quran was being documented.
1:05:47
Obviously my children write the Quran.
1:05:49
I mean, I give them tasks so they write it, and when my
1:05:54
children are writing, they do make spelling errors,
1:05:57
typographical errors and everything.
1:06:00
And if I were to collect them and canonize those writings of
1:06:05
my children, obviously we will end up having a different,
1:06:09
slightly different Quran because of the mistakes that they're
1:06:11
making while they're writing that writing them down.
1:06:15
So it is not prudent to save those documents that my children
1:06:18
write up today as a reference for the Quran.
1:06:22
So there had to be a sum of procedure of canonizing.
1:06:26
And in the 1st century when the caliphs were involved in
1:06:30
canonizing process, they really collected all of the writings
1:06:34
that the companions of Prophet Muhammad had made and they
1:06:37
burned them down, rightly so, for right reasons, for correct
1:06:40
reasons. That's because they don't want
1:06:43
variations to be proliferated between peoples and something
1:06:48
that did not really happen with the Bible, but it it really
1:06:52
happened with the Quran for for the right reasons.
1:06:55
So once you've standardized the text, there is no need for a
1:06:59
typographical errors to be proliferated anymore or spread
1:07:03
across anymore. So it makes obvious sense to
1:07:06
burn them down. Well, Daniel, I'll respond to
1:07:09
your question about Jeremiah and the pen and then sounds like TT
1:07:13
O Rs got some things he wants to throw out there.
1:07:16
But according to us Christian scholars, the universe argue
1:07:21
that the Hebrew Scriptures may have been altered before the
1:07:23
time of Jesus, supporting the idea that the New Testament
1:07:27
fulfills or corrects earlier revelations.
1:07:30
So this is what the scholars are claiming on that.
1:07:33
I myself, I'm not a biblical scholar, but they said, they say
1:07:37
that. They pretty much cleared that
1:07:38
up. They said that during the time
1:07:40
whenever Jeremiah was saying this, it was a great deal of
1:07:43
decline in humanity's morality at this point.
1:07:48
So there was some irritation. TTOR, did you have something you
1:07:52
wanted to respond on the Jeremiah thing, or did you have
1:07:54
something you wanted to bring up?
1:07:57
Yes, I just looked up the Jeremiah thing he was referring
1:08:01
to and it is definitely not saying that the scribes of
1:08:06
Jeremiah's time were corrupting the text of the Torah.
1:08:12
I'd like to read the actual text of Jeremiah chapter 8 verses one
1:08:17
through 12, which is where what he's referring to is found.
1:08:22
We see here from the top at that time, declares the Lord.
1:08:26
The bones of the kings and officials of Judah, the bones of
1:08:30
the priests and prophets, and the bones of the people of
1:08:32
Jerusalem will be removed from their graves.
1:08:35
They will be exposed to the sun and the moon, and all the stars
1:08:38
of the heavens, which they have loved and served, and which they
1:08:41
have followed and consulted and worshipped.
1:08:44
They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like dung
1:08:48
lying on the ground. Wherever I banish them.
1:08:51
All the survivors of this evil nation will prefer death to
1:08:54
life, declares the Lord Almighty say to them.
1:08:57
This is what the Lord says. When people fall down, do they
1:09:02
not get up? When someone turns away, do they
1:09:05
not return? Why then have these people
1:09:07
turned away? Why does Jerusalem always turn
1:09:10
away? They cling to deceit.
1:09:12
They refuse to return. I have listened attentively, but
1:09:16
they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their
1:09:19
wickedness, saying, What have I done?
1:09:21
Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into
1:09:24
battle. So even the stork in the sky
1:09:27
knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the
1:09:30
thrush, observe the time of their migration.
1:09:34
But my people do not know the requirements of the Lord.
1:09:37
How can you say we are wise? For we have the law of the Lord,
1:09:41
when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it
1:09:45
falsely. The wise will be put to shame.
1:09:48
They will be dismayed and trapped, since they have
1:09:50
rejected the word of the Lord. What kind of wisdom do they
1:09:54
have? Therefore I will give their
1:09:56
wives to other men, and their fields to new owners.
1:09:59
From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain.
1:10:02
Prophets and priests alike all practice deceit.
1:10:05
They dress the wound of my people as though it were not
1:10:08
serious peace. Peace, they say, when there is
1:10:12
no peace. Are they ashamed of their
1:10:14
detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all.
1:10:18
They do not even know how to blush.
1:10:20
So they will fall among the fallen.
1:10:22
They will be brought down when they are punished, says the
1:10:25
Lord. So we can see in the 1st 7
1:10:29
verses that God is talking about how the Israelites, the Jews,
1:10:33
the people of Israel and Jerusalem, they are refusing to
1:10:36
repent of their wickedness. They're refusing to get right
1:10:40
with God and to turn away from their sins.
1:10:43
They're crimes that they've committed against God.
1:10:45
They're refusing to turn to His law and His word and to enter
1:10:50
into proper relationship with Him.
1:10:53
And in Jeremiah chapter 8, verse 8 in particular is where we see
1:10:58
the passage that Daniel was referring to, where it says, how
1:11:02
can you say we are wise for we have the law of the Lord?
1:11:07
And then it says when actually the lying pens of the scribes
1:11:10
have handled it falsely. So it's not that the law of the
1:11:14
Lord has been altered by the pen of the scribes.
1:11:17
It's been handled falsely, meaning that they've
1:11:21
misrepresented or misinterpreted deliberately the text of the law
1:11:26
of the Lord when addressing the people of Israel in Jerusalem.
1:11:30
There's no reason, looking at this, to think that the text of
1:11:33
the Old Testament was altered by these lying scribes.
1:11:39
There's nothing at all to suggest that.
1:11:41
It just suggests that they were lying to people and they were
1:11:45
rebelling against God just like all of them, and they refused to
1:11:49
repent, and so they're going to suffer the same punishment as
1:11:53
everyone else when God decides to judge Jerusalem.
1:11:57
That's all I'm seeing here. Yeah, in fact.
1:12:00
When you 2 one second, can you 2 gentlemen do me a favor?
1:12:04
My wife just brought home some Krispy Kremes.
1:12:07
Can you take over the show for a little bit?
1:12:10
Sure, I can. Sure.
1:12:12
Sure. But whatever you were going to
1:12:16
say, Daniel, go ahead. Yeah.
1:12:19
So basically when it says the lime pen is indicative of
1:12:26
altering the words of God as opposed to just speaking in a in
1:12:34
a in a way to sort of like deceive, for example, not like
1:12:40
as you said it not representing the actual text.
1:12:44
Like you can speak and alter the words in your speech, distort
1:12:48
the words and the meanings through the speech, which is
1:12:51
very different to using a lying pen.
1:12:55
When Jeremiah directly accuses them of using a lying pen, we
1:13:00
have to understand that in the context of having the text being
1:13:05
altered. So as opposed to using a
1:13:08
distorted speech, which are two very different things.
1:13:12
So Jeremiah is very sharp in the criticism.
1:13:15
He uses the lying pen as opposed to distorting the words.
1:13:21
Yes, that is true. That is the point I'm trying to
1:13:26
make is that there is no alteration of the law of the
1:13:30
Lord being done as far as its text.
1:13:32
It's just saying that they have mishandled it.
1:13:35
And in order to do a lot of the things that the Israelites and
1:13:39
the Jews were doing at the time, which had a lot to do with the
1:13:43
stuff that we see outlined in Leviticus chapter 18 and
1:13:47
Leviticus chapter 20. The practices of the Canaanites
1:13:51
basically where they were practicing all forms of incest
1:13:54
and beastiality and all forms of homosexuality and child
1:13:59
sacrifice by literally putting their children on a bail altar
1:14:03
and playing really loud music and drums so that parents
1:14:06
couldn't hear the screams of their children as they were
1:14:08
burned alive. That's the kind of stuff the
1:14:11
Jews were engaging in around the time of Jeremiah.
1:14:15
And that's why God brought in Nebuchadnezzar to judge the
1:14:20
Israelites for what they had done.
1:14:22
I've been reading through Jeremiah the whole book recently
1:14:25
as part of my personal Bible time.
1:14:27
And over and over we see in the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah
1:14:32
telling the Jews and the Israelites to not to listen to
1:14:35
all these so-called prophets and teachers who were telling them
1:14:41
that Oh yeah, you know, Nebuchadnezzar's not even going
1:14:44
to come. But even if he does come, you
1:14:46
guys are going to defeat his army in battle and you'll be
1:14:49
fine. And Jeremiah over and over had
1:14:52
to tell people no, that is not true at all.
1:14:55
You didn't get that from the Lord.
1:14:56
The Lord is saying the opposite. The Lord is saying that He's
1:14:59
going to come conquer all of you through Nebuchadnezzar as a
1:15:03
judgment for all your sins against God, for all your
1:15:06
rebellion against him. He even says that Nebuchadnezzar
1:15:10
is his servant and that anyone who tries to resist
1:15:13
Nebuchadnezzar when he comes to conquer Jerusalem, basically all
1:15:17
manner of horrible things are going to happen to them and
1:15:19
their descendants. But those who submit to
1:15:21
Nebuchadnezzar, when he comes, they'll go into exile, but
1:15:25
they'll be better off, and eventually they will serve their
1:15:28
full time in exile and be allowed to come back.
1:15:32
So that's what's going on in the time of Jeremiah when this whole
1:15:37
book is being written down. So that's the historical
1:15:41
context. What I see is you're making 2
1:15:44
assumptions. 1 is that they are distorting words when they are
1:15:50
speaking about the speaking those words in the form of
1:15:55
misrepresenting those written words.
1:15:58
That's your first assumption. And the second assumption is you
1:16:02
assume that the scribes were doing that during Jeremiah's
1:16:07
time. OK, but they.
1:16:09
Were otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it.
1:16:12
Yeah, but when we read verse #8 we get to see a different
1:16:18
picture painted by Jeremiah himself.
1:16:21
So he says, how can you say we are wise?
1:16:24
For we have the law of the Lord, which refers to the past tense,
1:16:27
right? So he's referring to the law of
1:16:31
the Lord, which is with them, which is already documented with
1:16:35
them, right? He's so Jeremiah is referring to
1:16:38
something that's already documented in the form of a
1:16:41
book, right? And he goes on to criticize
1:16:44
that, he says, when actually the lying pen of the scribes has
1:16:47
handled it falsely. So he says the lying pen of the
1:16:50
scribes has handled the very book that you're holding in your
1:16:52
hands falsely. The wise will be put to shame
1:16:56
because of that. Those wise people you know who
1:16:59
continue to hold that and who, who mishandled it previously,
1:17:03
they will be put to shame. They will be dismayed and
1:17:06
trapped since they have rejected the word of the Lord.
1:17:09
So he says the word of the Lord has been mishandled and they
1:17:13
have rejected it. So what kind of wisdom do they
1:17:16
have? He questions them.
1:17:17
What kind of wisdom is it when you have mishandled it with your
1:17:21
lying pen? So it's a very different picture
1:17:27
that we that Jeremiah paints and the way that you are making
1:17:31
those assumptions, actually, I feel I sense a an element of
1:17:37
anachronism. You are interpreting the passage
1:17:41
in in Jeremiah's time and distortions with the words, mere
1:17:48
words spoken of the tongue. But the context painted in that
1:17:52
passage is of the past tense and of a documentation, not merely
1:17:58
articulating with distorted representations through speech.
1:18:04
Are you suggesting that the word of the Lord was altered as far
1:18:09
as the text goes in the time of Jeremiah?
1:18:13
I think that's exactly what Jeremiah is referring to.
1:18:17
Previously, before Jeremiah comes along, all of this is
1:18:21
happening in Israel. The scribes are involved in
1:18:25
mishandling the words of God when they're documenting the
1:18:28
scriptures. And literally speaking, it's
1:18:32
only after Jeremiah, when the Septuagint is being written down
1:18:37
for the Library of Alexandria, when Ptolemy puts out a project
1:18:42
to render those Hebrew scriptures into the Greek
1:18:45
language. So this event is happening
1:18:49
before the Septuagint was written down.
1:18:52
So well done. The all of the fragments that
1:18:56
were there at the time of which Jeremiah was referring to as
1:19:01
being handled falsely is a big, is a big, you know, telling, you
1:19:09
know, it's telling something, you know, it's telling something
1:19:12
big that we have to pay attention to.
1:19:15
You're right. It is telling something big.
1:19:17
It's telling us that like everyone else at the time, the
1:19:20
scribes, we're rejecting the word of the Lord and they were
1:19:25
not going with accepting, teaching what it actually said.
1:19:29
They were adding their own twist to it.
1:19:33
Because when you're talking about handling a text, that
1:19:36
doesn't necessarily mean that you're altering the text.
1:19:39
It can means that you could be misrepresenting what it says.
1:19:44
What? Why do you think it does not
1:19:45
mean that they are writing it down when Jeremiah clearly
1:19:50
accuses them of the lying pen so they are pinning it down in
1:19:55
terms of the manuscripts? Jeremiah does not say that these
1:20:00
particular scribes are penning the law of the Lord.
1:20:04
He he refers to the past tense like in the past, the activity
1:20:08
that has happened in terms of documenting the scriptures in
1:20:11
the past. So it says, how can you say we
1:20:14
have what we are wise for? We have the law of the Lord when
1:20:18
actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely.
1:20:22
So this is something that's already happened.
1:20:24
It's not happening during Jeremiah's time.
1:20:26
Already happened. Yeah, it's been going up for a
1:20:30
long time into his time, ever since they came into the
1:20:34
Promised Land and started rebelling against God.
1:20:37
It's why the Jews were under Philistinian occupation for so
1:20:41
long. It's why the Nebuchadnezzar and
1:20:43
the Babylonians came along later to serve out God's judgment and
1:20:48
take them away from their nation.
1:20:50
It was been going on for a long time.
1:20:52
The rejection of God's Word, the twisting of God's Word in order
1:20:57
to justify their desires and the things that they wanted to do.
1:21:02
After all, in the book of Judges, we see over and over and
1:21:05
over again, Israel had no king. Therefore, everyone did what was
1:21:09
right in their own eyes. You don't have to misrep.
1:21:14
You don't have to change the text of the word of the Lord in
1:21:18
order to do what's right in your own eyes.
1:21:20
You just have to reject it, which we see right here in the
1:21:23
passage I read. They were rejecting the word of
1:21:26
the Lord. It's a matter of fact.
1:21:27
It's the very next thing that Jeremiah says here in verse 9.
1:21:32
And you also can misrepresent the text to justify the things
1:21:36
that you want to teach and believe, kind of like what
1:21:39
you're doing right now. Didn't you?
1:21:42
Now, Daniel, if you don't mind me asking earlier on in the
1:21:45
conversation when you first came in and introduced yourself,
1:21:49
which I'm glad you're here, you are, You're an excellent guy by
1:21:52
the way. But the problem is, is that you
1:21:55
said that Allah actually commanded or instructed you or
1:21:59
perhaps LED you to read the Bible.
1:22:02
That it was a a part of something that you should
1:22:04
respect and honor. But the first thing you bring up
1:22:08
is something that you believe somehow derails the Bible.
1:22:13
No, it does not derail the Bible at all.
1:22:17
What in fact does is it depicts the the reality of
1:22:24
documentation. And if we are accepting of this
1:22:29
reality, it actually works in favor of God's religion, because
1:22:36
there are things in the Bible that the Jew Jewish scribes
1:22:40
really got it wrong. If we ought to defend them, if
1:22:45
we ought to defend those writings of the Jewish scribes,
1:22:48
we would be landing God's religion in trouble.
1:22:54
But if we do not, but if we elect not to defend those
1:22:57
writings of the Jewish scribes, we will be better off
1:23:02
representing God's religion to the to the entirety of human
1:23:06
race. So basically some of the lies
1:23:10
that the Jewish scribes have written must be called out for
1:23:13
what they are and not go not be defended by us.
1:23:19
You know, we are not required to defend them because Jeremiah
1:23:21
himself was not defending them. We have the example of the
1:23:24
prophet right in front of our eyes.
1:23:25
He was not defending those lies that the Jewish scribes were
1:23:29
writing down. He called it, He called a spade
1:23:31
for a spade. And we have this example of the
1:23:33
prophet to walk in those footsteps.
1:23:36
So we should, we should do, we should do a, a diligent, A
1:23:42
diligent job like our approach should be that of the prophets,
1:23:46
not of the not of the scribes. So when prophets have criticized
1:23:50
the scribes, we go with them, we stand with them.
1:23:53
We, we, we also, you know, have that position to share of those
1:23:59
scriptures and we cannot say something contrary to what the
1:24:03
prophets have said. So we have to, we have to stand.
1:24:06
If you don't mind me, in order in order for me to entertain
1:24:09
what's going on here, though, would you be able to give me
1:24:12
three major things that they would have lied about or
1:24:16
deceived the Sun according to you, specifically, three major
1:24:21
things. Sure.
1:24:26
Let me, let me just give you 3 three as you as you request
1:24:30
three things. They may not be major at this
1:24:33
point in time because I'm not recollecting them on top of my
1:24:36
head, but well, you have. To understand, in order for me
1:24:40
to be able to analyze and do what you're talking about with
1:24:44
helping with the profits and all that, I have to know what
1:24:47
information would be incorrect and how you came to the
1:24:50
conclusion. Do you follow, Sir?
1:24:53
Yeah, I do. So one of the, I mean, I have a
1:24:56
list down a few for you to latch on.
1:24:59
You can you can pick and choose whichever you want to latch on,
1:25:01
right? So right in the right in the
1:25:04
beginning Genesis account, we see the serpent being called out
1:25:08
as the shrewd or as the what's the word that the Bible uses for
1:25:15
the serpent, the most shrewd of all the animals that God Lord
1:25:20
had made in the garden, right. That's a, that's a very no wise
1:25:30
understanding of God's creatures.
1:25:32
Certainly the serpent is not the shrewdest of all of them.
1:25:36
You can, you can arguably speaking, you can say a magpie
1:25:41
is the most cunning or most sharp or most shrewd.
1:25:45
In fact, the serpent is the dumbest animal that God has made
1:25:49
in, in my opinion, it's the most dumbest.
1:25:52
But people perceived the serpent in ancient mythologies as being
1:25:57
powerful symbol. They took the serpent as a
1:25:59
powerful symbolism, and the Hebrews borrowed these symbolism
1:26:04
from from their ancient counterparts in the lands that
1:26:09
lived in ancient Egypt and even in Canaan from, you know, from
1:26:14
the Babylonians. So they borrowed the symbolism
1:26:18
of the serpent being this powerful entity, this shrewd
1:26:22
entity that actually can go and deceive human beings.
1:26:28
But that's just incorrect in any, any, any, any, you know,
1:26:35
angle of attack. That's just incorrect.
1:26:38
It could have been a different animal such as a magpie who who
1:26:42
we know is being really smart animal and.
1:26:47
Then, not to be rude or anything to cut you off, but I mean,
1:26:51
technically, traditionally Christians and some Jews out
1:26:54
there believe that it wasn't just a mere serpent or a mere
1:26:58
snake floating around. They believe it was a
1:27:01
manifestation of the devil. So I mean, you could understand
1:27:04
why they would throw the clever and cunning reputation on it,
1:27:08
right? But even even for you to believe
1:27:14
that the manifestation really happened in in terms of serpent,
1:27:18
why would you, why would you believe that when we don't see
1:27:22
that happening ever, ever after that like a devil does not
1:27:26
necessarily manifest in terms of a serpent.
1:27:30
And what was the point of even calling the serpent as the
1:27:35
shrewdest animal that the Lord God had made in the whole of the
1:27:39
garden? That sort of a description,
1:27:42
that's what was given to the serpent is very much serpent
1:27:48
orientated rather than having to do anything with the devil.
1:27:53
Because I think at that point in time, the scribes are not even
1:27:56
referring to the devil. It's only the later
1:27:59
interpretations that kind of see the devil manifest in the form
1:28:04
of a serpent. But the scribes who are writing
1:28:06
that story down, they don't give this impression to us, to the
1:28:12
readers. It is the readers who do EC
1:28:15
Jesus, you know, they read into the text.
1:28:17
They're not doing exegesis because there is no material
1:28:20
there for exegesis. That that's the devil.
1:28:24
It's basically we have to import the idea of devil into that
1:28:28
passage. Otherwise you have to you're
1:28:30
just looking at the passage as the serpent being the shrewdest
1:28:34
of all of the animals that God had made in the garden, which to
1:28:39
me is a direct borrow, borrowing happening from the ancient
1:28:43
mythologies. Hold on, I'm having a little bit
1:28:53
of delay here. Torah, not Torah, but ttor, did
1:28:56
you have something you want to respond to?
1:28:58
Because I've been talking an awful lot and I'm wanting to
1:29:01
look at some of this information myself to make sure I give a a
1:29:05
clear answer response to things. Yeah, so am I getting this right
1:29:13
that prophets are more reliable than scribes when it comes to
1:29:17
the word of God? Absolutely.
1:29:20
We should follow the prophets. Absolutely.
1:29:25
Prophets are the ones who bring the words of the Lord and
1:29:28
scribes are the ones who handle those words in a wrong way or in
1:29:33
a correct way, You know, or sometimes mistakes can also
1:29:36
happen when you don't have the intent for it because we are
1:29:40
human beings when we document or we can make a mistake, right?
1:29:44
So, so was the case with the Quran when people were
1:29:46
documenting, they were making typo errors and all sorts of
1:29:49
errors. And that's why there there is
1:29:52
canonization happening, right? So that's why there is burning
1:29:55
down happening of the manuscripts that are, you know,
1:29:57
not required any longer, right? So human beings can make a
1:30:00
mistake when they're right, not intentionally, but
1:30:05
unintentionally. Mistakes can still happen.
1:30:07
But what Jeremiah accuses of the scribes is for their intentional
1:30:11
mistakes and and for their carefree attitude of borrowing
1:30:16
these literary devices from foreign cultures.
1:30:19
And we also see a great deal of mishandling of the prophets in
1:30:24
the history of Israelites. Israelites are quick to point
1:30:30
sins in among their prophets, so they don't spare Aaron.
1:30:34
They paint a picture of Aaron as of Aaron got involved in the
1:30:39
worship of the calf and the reader of the Bible is given a
1:30:46
picture to believe that story that Aaron was somehow involved
1:30:50
in in the worship of the calf. And yet Moses spares him.
1:30:55
He does not give him death penalty as he did to others.
1:31:00
So what we get to read from the Bible is a picture that the
1:31:05
scribes have intentionally painted, which may not be the
1:31:10
case. And we have some of those things
1:31:13
clarified in the Quran. The Quran does not, you know,
1:31:20
point at the prophets making those categorical errors, such
1:31:23
as which are, you know, blasphemy in status.
1:31:28
For example, Aaron getting involved in worshipping the
1:31:30
calf. That's not there in the Quran.
1:31:32
The Quran says Aaron was a righteous man.
1:31:35
And even David, for example, they stitch up stories about
1:31:39
David, how he sinned by shooting down the soldier and grabbing
1:31:43
his wife. That story is not not in the
1:31:47
Quran either. The Quran calls David as a
1:31:49
righteous man and a prophet. So the the the scribes, the
1:31:54
Jewish scribes did spin a lot of stories against their prophets
1:31:59
because each time the prophet comes to them, he brings
1:32:03
information that's contrary to their to their presuppositions
1:32:10
and preconceptions or desires. So when a prophet comes, they
1:32:15
don't like him straight away. They take offense at the
1:32:19
prophet's teachings. Even Jeremiah was in put in
1:32:22
prison and ultimately killed. Jeremiah ultimately got killed.
1:32:28
I, I have to stop. I have to stop you right there
1:32:31
because my mind is blown. Are you saying that the passages
1:32:36
in the Old Testament where the sins of Aaron and the sins of
1:32:39
King David were recorded down, You're saying that that never
1:32:43
really happened because it's not recorded in the Islamic sources.
1:32:47
Are those corrupted passages according to you?
1:32:53
In my opinion, yes, because the Quran calls David as a righteous
1:32:58
prophet and the Quran calls Aaron as a righteous prophet.
1:33:08
Well, I guess that makes sense. I mean you do follow a prophet
1:33:12
who married a girl when she was 6 and consummated the marriage
1:33:15
when she was 9 and that's a OK according to a law.
1:33:18
So I guess that's saying that the.
1:33:21
Prophet. Never happened.
1:33:24
I guess that's a an acceptable practice, but I don't know.
1:33:30
Yeah, Long. If you do it, it's in the Hadees
1:33:32
don't lie. He married Aisha when she was 6
1:33:37
and consummated that marriage when she was 9.
1:33:39
He would be in prison today. This is again Mr. Daniel, not to
1:33:47
you Daniel, you've, you've jumped into Aaron and King David
1:33:51
and we were still dealing with the topic of the serpent and the
1:33:54
devil. Now, according to the you do
1:33:57
realize that there are scriptures later on in the Bible
1:34:00
that actually link it. But to make things even worse
1:34:03
for you is even your Quran, although it doesn't mention the
1:34:07
serpent, it does mention a character by the name of Iblis,
1:34:10
which I believe is referred to as your brain or concept of the
1:34:14
devil, am I right? So you got the devil there,
1:34:19
you've got the link in the Quran.
1:34:21
That is the devil and the Christians obviously believe it
1:34:25
either some could argue that the devil took upon this form of the
1:34:30
creature or possessed it and then went in there and it is
1:34:34
luring. But it's pretty much the same
1:34:36
concept, isn't it, of Eblis? Eblis went in there, he deceived
1:34:41
them and then voila. Now this is what I'm saying to
1:34:44
you, Brett, is we have in the biblical passage we have to
1:34:51
import the idea of the devil, which otherwise is not obvious.
1:34:58
What is in fact obvious is of a serpent who is the shortest
1:35:03
animal in the entirety of the God and the God Lord has made
1:35:07
OK, so we have to import now we have to import the idea we have
1:35:11
to do EC Jesus as opposed to exegesis.
1:35:15
So that's the that's the difficulty with that passage in
1:35:18
the Bible right now. I just want to be, you know,
1:35:24
answering to some of the objections that Torres bringing
1:35:27
and also Smokey requested me to answer this, the passage 65
1:35:32
first four in the Quran. I I just say I hope you
1:35:34
understand I wasn't trying to be rude to you, but we were getting
1:35:38
way far ahead into the Bible and I wanted to make sure we at
1:35:41
least responded on the original topic you brought up about the
1:35:45
serpent. But go ahead, you and PTR
1:35:48
Rock'n'roll, take your time. I'd like to I'd like to camp on
1:35:53
his examples of Aaron and Daniel sinning not being.
1:35:57
Yeah, because I, I do understand the passengers with the serpent
1:36:00
are difficult to handle. And I can give you more time.
1:36:03
We can, we can catch up on the topic another time because I, I
1:36:07
don't see anyone bringing this up on the Internet just yet.
1:36:10
So it might be new to you. You might need more time to
1:36:13
respond to that serpent issue, which we can do.
1:36:15
Have you? Have you ever heard of the
1:36:18
principle of embarrassment, Daniel?
1:36:22
What is it? Tell me what is it?
1:36:24
Well, for the viewing audience at home, the principle of
1:36:27
embarrassment or criterion of embarrassment is a historical
1:36:32
method used to assess the reliability of ancient texts,
1:36:35
especially in biblical studies. It suggests that if a text
1:36:39
includes details that would be considered embarrassing,
1:36:42
unflattering, or damaging to the author's reputation, or 'cause
1:36:46
it's more likely to be historically accurate because an
1:36:49
author wouldn't likely invent such details.
1:36:53
And it's because of this principle, Daniel, that I
1:36:56
believe that the embarrassing accounts in the Old Testament
1:37:00
about Aaron's sin and Davidson are true.
1:37:05
They really happened because they are embarrassing to the
1:37:09
cause of the author. They don't make David, they
1:37:12
don't make Aaron look particularly good.
1:37:15
It's very embarrassing to their reputation in the narrative.
1:37:19
So the fact that it's even recorded most likely means that
1:37:24
it really happened. Because why include something so
1:37:27
embarrassing if it didn't really happen?
1:37:31
I mean, this is an excellent point, and I completely, fully
1:37:35
agree with you that the principle of embarrassment is a
1:37:38
real good criteria to establish certain facts.
1:37:42
OK, But that is, that is assuming that Aaron wrote the
1:37:48
text. All right, That's assuming that
1:37:51
Moses wrote the text. But Jeremiah is telling us the
1:37:56
scribes have written it with the lying pen, have handled it
1:38:01
falsely. Jeremiah tells it's not Aaron
1:38:04
who's writing it, it's not Moses who's writing it, it's the
1:38:07
scribes who are writing it. So when scribes have intentions
1:38:11
of allegation or accusation, that must be looked at skeptical
1:38:17
lens rather than from the lens of principle of embarrassment.
1:38:24
So why? How come Jesus never questioned
1:38:26
the authenticity of the Old Testament?
1:38:30
Jesus had his own problems that he was dealing with, like his
1:38:34
own acceptance was an issue, unlike Jeremiah.
1:38:37
Jeremiah was accepted as a prophet, but Jesus had his own
1:38:42
battles to fight. He wasn't even accepted as a
1:38:45
prophet or as a Messiah. So he, he was battling on a
1:38:49
different, different area like. You, you do realize if you read
1:38:54
the book of Jeremiah that every time he bought brought one of
1:38:58
his revelations to the people, telling them that their other
1:39:02
prophets and their rulers were lying to them and that they were
1:39:05
not going to overthrow Nebuchadnezzar.
1:39:07
He was going to overthrow them and haul them off into exile.
1:39:11
You do realize every time he did that they either tried to kill
1:39:14
him or imprison him, right? He wasn't like any more than
1:39:18
Jesus was. Look, at least Jeremiah was.
1:39:27
I see, I see where you're coming from, right?
1:39:29
I see where you're coming from. But we also see Jeremiah even in
1:39:35
the prison, the king, I think it was Oriya, the king who upon
1:39:41
hearing the trumpets of the Babylonians marching,
1:39:44
immediately sends his advisors to the prison to go and consult
1:39:48
Jeremiah in the prison, right? So even though, look, Jeremiah
1:39:53
was in the prison, but unlike Jesus, Jesus wasn't in the
1:39:55
prison. Jesus was out and about
1:39:58
interacting with them, facing their wrath on a daily basis,
1:40:02
which is even harder to do. And you know, you are not sure
1:40:07
when you will be killed, for example, you know, but at least
1:40:10
Jeremiah is in the safety of the prison, right?
1:40:14
So it's two different things if you want to compare that.
1:40:18
But Jesus certainly had a different battle to fight.
1:40:22
His battles were far worse than the Battles of Jeremiah.
1:40:26
And Jeremiah at least had some safekeeping.
1:40:29
And later on when the things became true, you know,
1:40:34
Jeremiah's prophecies were well, predictions were fulfilled right
1:40:38
during when he was alive. And even then, even then the
1:40:42
Hebrews went down to kill him, right?
1:40:44
So these are Hebrews. I mean, Hebrews are a different
1:40:46
set of people. They have a different mindset
1:40:48
all together. They recognize their prophets,
1:40:50
but they kill them like John the Baptist.
1:40:52
They recognized him to be the prophet of God.
1:40:54
But they, they handled him, basically they mishandled him
1:40:58
and had the Herod Antipas kill him.
1:41:01
So Hebrews are a different people.
1:41:04
They have a different mindset. They are far more arrogant, to
1:41:09
say the least, than the rest of the peoples.
1:41:12
You know, the Gentile world. So we see they have been
1:41:16
mishandling prophets and their words in their history and they
1:41:21
have, they have been on a rampage, you know, to say this,
1:41:24
to say the least, against the prophets.
1:41:26
So. If you think the Jewish people
1:41:30
are more arrogant than gentiles are, you really don't know
1:41:34
gentiles very well. I might I might make a mistake,
1:41:38
but the reason why I call them arrogant is the way they have
1:41:42
dealt with their prophets. Like it was not just one
1:41:46
prophet, they were like 10 ends of them addressing them.
1:41:51
And even after so many prophets giving them the words of the
1:41:54
Lord, they fall and they are LED into exile.
1:42:00
You know, they're brought back. And even then they're doing so
1:42:04
poor and Jesus, John the Baptist comes along you.
1:42:09
Know Well, part of the yeah, yeah.
1:42:11
But part of the reason why, part of the reason why they were so
1:42:14
quick to reject what the true prophets of God were saying is
1:42:18
as we see in the Old Testament, there were other people who
1:42:23
called themselves prophets coming up right beside or right
1:42:26
behind them, telling the people what they wanted to hear, that
1:42:30
they were going to be fine. The Babylonians aren't going to
1:42:33
come. Even if they do come, you're
1:42:35
going to beat them in battle. God's with you.
1:42:38
They were telling the Jewish people soothing lies, and that's
1:42:41
why they were so quick to rebel against the true prophets like
1:42:46
Jeremiah, because you had so many people telling them things
1:42:50
that they wanted to hear. So Jeremiah's message was so
1:42:53
offensive to them that they had no problems with him being
1:42:57
imprisoned or killed. Gotcha.
1:42:59
I mean, you nailed the point. You nailed it.
1:43:01
Basically it's. Been the same.
1:43:04
It's been the same way since Jesus was on the earth.
1:43:07
Lots of people who call themselves Christians that come
1:43:10
along and tell people what they want to hear.
1:43:13
And so the people who are saying what the truth is, they often
1:43:16
get drowned out because there's so many people telling everyone
1:43:20
what they want to hear and not the truth because why?
1:43:24
Is. I would agree.
1:43:27
I agree. I agreed that to be the case
1:43:29
during Jeremiah's time, but not so when During Jesus Jesus time
1:43:34
in the 1st century, we have John the Baptist, recognized a
1:43:37
prophet by the Jewish people. Confirm that Jesus was the
1:43:42
Messiah, the one sent by God. Confirm it.
1:43:45
As opposed to alternative narratives during Jeremiah's
1:43:49
time, we have a confirmation during 1st century, which is
1:43:52
very which is which is very new. Like, you know, a confirmation
1:43:57
coming you. Do know I did not say that Jesus
1:44:00
had the same problem, right? I was talking about Christians
1:44:03
after him. Jesus didn't really have that
1:44:06
kind of competition because of all the miracles he was
1:44:09
performing. And also John giving the
1:44:12
confirmation, right? John is providing the testimony.
1:44:15
So an acclaimed prophet provides the testimony that he is the one
1:44:19
sent of God. So Jesus had a very easy
1:44:24
induction, so to speak, unlike Jeremiah, who had a difficult
1:44:27
induction but easy life because he was in the prison.
1:44:31
But Jesus had an easy induction, but a difficult life.
1:44:35
You know, it's, it's a two different paradigm.
1:44:38
It's a completely different paradigm.
1:44:39
And but yeah, that's why I say Jewish, Jewish people are
1:44:43
arrogant because they had the confirmation from John the
1:44:46
Baptist, who was an acclaimed prophet.
1:44:48
And yet they go on to disbelieve in Jesus being their Messiah
1:44:52
because he was telling them things contrary to what they
1:44:58
want to listen or there was an authority confrontation with
1:45:01
them. They did not want to budget
1:45:03
themselves their pride into listening to Jesus, whom they
1:45:07
did not consider to be one among them or things like that.
1:45:10
So that's the. Problem.
1:45:14
He didn't react very well when he called himself Yahweh.
1:45:20
I know where you, I know where you're coming from, but we will
1:45:23
get to that in the future. But I would like to cover
1:45:27
something that you brought up about Prophet Muhammad marrying
1:45:30
a young little girl, six year, 6 year old or even a nine year
1:45:34
old, which I believe is not the case.
1:45:37
The Quran does not confirm it. In fact, the Quran has quite an
1:45:41
opposite guidance in the matter of.
1:45:43
As it's in the hadiths and you know that.
1:45:46
Yeah, Hadith are literature that really come up couple of a
1:45:51
couple 100 years afterwards. They're highly unreliable.
1:45:56
You should not. Believe in that.
1:45:57
Are you sure? Yeah, but the hadith books
1:46:01
showed up. The first hadith book shows up
1:46:05
like in a 200 years time. Like easily 150 years after is
1:46:11
when the first hadith book, it's called the Moat Malik.
1:46:15
That's the first. Bukhari is not even the first.
1:46:17
All right. So it's something called as Moat
1:46:20
Malik. That's the first book of Hadith
1:46:22
that's coming up after 150 years.
1:46:26
And Bukhari comes up much later. And Bukhari comes up much later,
1:46:33
but comes up with this huge volume of Hadis's, right?
1:46:37
Like huge. Like where does he get that
1:46:40
from? Like I'm wondering, I mean, if
1:46:43
you put the books of Hadis together, like the 6th book of
1:46:46
Hadith, and mind you, the first book of Hadis is not among these
1:46:50
six, which the traditionalists claim to be authentic.
1:46:56
So the traditional Sunni source claims the 6th book of hadith to
1:47:01
be authentic, and the first book of hadith is not even in them.
1:47:05
All right. Anyway, that's besides the
1:47:07
point. The 6th book of hadith, which
1:47:10
the Sunni Muslim people claim to be authentic.
1:47:16
By the way, I should, I should, I should, I should really point
1:47:19
out that not all Sunnis believe in the hadith, OK, Not all of
1:47:23
them. There is no commitment to
1:47:25
reading the Hadith. Hadith is not something that
1:47:28
people, Muslim people are reading every day in their life.
1:47:30
That's not the case. It only remains in religious
1:47:33
circles. All right.
1:47:35
But OK, that's that's the main point, in fact.
1:47:37
But the point being, if you put all of these hadith books
1:47:40
together, it comes up 30 times more larger than the Quran.
1:47:46
Can you imagine that? 30 times more larger in volume
1:47:49
than the Quran. So I'm wondering what was the
1:47:52
prophet even doing? Did he have a life for himself?
1:47:55
Was he just sitting down and dictating?
1:47:57
Dictating endlessly So people recorded these things.
1:48:01
Like his companions who documented the Quran don't even
1:48:04
document the hadith man. Like they didn't even feel it
1:48:07
was important to document. They should be the ones who
1:48:11
should be feeling the necessity of documenting the hadith.
1:48:16
If it was something that God wanted them to do, it wasn't the
1:48:20
case. So these are the stories that
1:48:23
people invent later on, after hundreds of years.
1:48:26
They are tell tales, Chinese whispers.
1:48:29
They have no truth in them. I don't.
1:48:32
I don't see a point of believing in them, and moreover, belief in
1:48:38
them is not even required. The Quran says which other
1:48:41
narrative after the Quran will you ever believe?
1:48:44
So the Quran points at itself as the final word, final doctrine,
1:48:50
final book, final narration that one should believe to be a
1:48:54
Muslim. That's precisely why the
1:48:56
Prophet's companions never documented even a single hadith.
1:49:01
They never documented even a single hadith, but they are the
1:49:04
ones who documented the Quran so you know, are.
1:49:08
You a Quran only Muslim? Are you a Quran only Muslim?
1:49:15
I believe in order to be a good Muslim we have to believe in the
1:49:19
Quran and the books that God gave to the prophets such as
1:49:24
Jesus, David, Moses and the prophets.
1:49:28
But in terms of Islamic, but in terms of Islamic only texts?
1:49:32
But in terms of Islamic texts, are you Quran only?
1:49:36
Yes. OK, well that makes more.
1:49:38
Sense even for Christians to be good Christians.
1:49:42
They can be good Christians if they only believed in the
1:49:44
gospels of Christ, not necessarily having to believe in
1:49:48
the apostleship of Paul or his writings.
1:49:50
Not to say that Paul was a bad guy.
1:49:52
I don't say that Paul was in fact good guy.
1:49:55
When I read his some of his letters I made out he was a
1:49:58
good. He was a good person.
1:50:00
Paul was a good person. But as a Christian you're not
1:50:04
required to believe in Paul. You can be a very good Christian
1:50:08
if you only believe in the Gospels of Jesus, right?
1:50:11
So we have to understand what is the primary text, what is the
1:50:15
primary requirement? What is the fundamental
1:50:18
requirement of faith? The fundamental requirement of
1:50:20
faith is you believe in the prophet God sends and the words
1:50:23
he gives to that prophet, right? So that's what makes you a
1:50:27
believer. If I believed in Prophet
1:50:28
Muhammad to be a prophet of God and believed in his book, that's
1:50:31
it. I'm not required to believe in
1:50:33
any other literature that comes later on.
1:50:36
And the same would apply to the Christians.
1:50:38
If you believed in Jesus to be the Saint of God and believed in
1:50:41
these Gospels, that will make you a good Christian.
1:50:44
OK, so but people complicate things.
1:50:48
People complicate things and it goes downhill from there on.
1:50:53
So all of these stories that have come up about Prophet's
1:50:56
marriage is they're contrary to the Quran's advice.
1:50:59
They're contradict the Quran's advice.
1:51:01
The Quran list lays out a premise for marriage and it says
1:51:05
the age for marriage is when you find in people sound judgement.
1:51:13
That's the criteria the Quran lays down in chapter 4 verse
1:51:15
six. OK so if prophet married a six
1:51:19
year old he couldn't even like what is it?
1:51:23
Where is it coming from? Sorry, it's not Saeed Albukari
1:51:28
5134 we read and the Prophet married her when she was six
1:51:32
years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years
1:51:36
old, Hisam said. I have been informed that Aisha
1:51:39
remained with the Prophet for nine years IE till his death.
1:51:44
Yeah, those are the those are the sort of declarative stories
1:51:47
and statements one should not really consider on face value
1:51:51
and should always go and validate that with the Quran.
1:51:54
If you go and read the Quran verse chapter 4 verse 6, can you
1:51:59
open that over there? I could give me one second.
1:52:10
You said Chapter 4. Yeah, chapter 4 is where the
1:52:15
dictation is being given in in relation to marriage.
1:52:20
Hold on, hold on one second. I'm getting an error loading.
1:52:26
So can I? Can I?
1:52:26
Can I share it from my side? You certainly can.
1:52:32
OK, just give me a moment. Oh, I got it.
1:52:35
Hold on. I got it.
1:52:37
I just, it was trying to load too many verses at once, so I
1:52:41
narrowed it. I think this is it.
1:52:50
Yeah. Yeah, this is it.
1:52:57
So I hit the continue there. Continue.
1:53:00
Yeah. You said verse 4 now.
1:53:03
Hit the continue there verse 6, verse six.
1:53:05
Hit the continue there. Continue.
1:53:07
OK, I didn't go far enough. OK.
1:53:09
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.
1:53:13
So verse number six there, it says test the orphan girls until
1:53:21
they reach the marriageable age, right.
1:53:25
And if you find and if you find sound judgement in them, then is
1:53:32
the time to return their wealth to them.
1:53:35
And also the bridal gift. The way marriage happens in
1:53:37
Islam in the Quran is you have to give a bridal gift, which is
1:53:42
a substantial amount to the bride.
1:53:45
So that's how you win your mate in Islam is a natural religion
1:53:51
and we see this all the time that animals pay with their
1:53:53
blood to win a mate. But in terms of human beings, we
1:53:58
are required to to give a bridal gift, which is a substantial
1:54:02
amount to win the virginity or to win a mate, for example,
1:54:06
right. So you have to provide a
1:54:08
substantial bridal gift. And the criteria being when you
1:54:13
find sound judgement in them, that's when you hand over their
1:54:16
finances to them. So they can manage their
1:54:18
finances, they can invest it, you know they can, you know,
1:54:21
it's their gift, you know, they can invest it and they can grow
1:54:24
on it or whatever it is. And also you can return the
1:54:27
property to the females. So when you are giving them all
1:54:32
those financial responsibility, you should make sure that they
1:54:36
are capable of handling those financial, you know, financial
1:54:39
investments that they're receiving.
1:54:42
So they can't be a really little girls, 6 year old and 9 year
1:54:45
old. That's just not the case.
1:54:47
And even the Quran gives an open invitation to the peoples, to
1:54:51
the societies to test these people.
1:54:55
The Quran in fact, goes on to say issue a certificate of
1:54:57
marriageable age. So the Quran is not saying you
1:55:01
have to marry when a girl is 6 or 9 or 12 or 14, but it says
1:55:06
you have to determine this in your society and issue people
1:55:09
certificates that they're capable of marriage, just like
1:55:12
how we do with a driver's license, for example, we sort of
1:55:17
assess young people to be eligible to drive and to use the
1:55:22
motorways responsibly at the age of 16, for example.
1:55:25
If that is the age when we deem young people to become
1:55:28
responsible, socially responsible, that might probably
1:55:31
be the age of marriage. So the Quran is recommending an
1:55:36
age of marriage premised on the criteria of sound judgement
1:55:39
instead of puberty. That's an important point to,
1:55:42
to, to note, right? So a prophet who gives these
1:55:46
teachings could not have married a six year old, you know what I
1:55:49
mean? So it's contradictory.
1:55:51
So the Hadis is completely, it's story tales, Chinese whispers.
1:55:58
It's it's unreliable accounts of the Prophet Muhammad, right?
1:56:02
You don't rely on them to get an account of Prophet Muhammad.
1:56:05
You have to go back to the Quran and see what the person taught
1:56:08
people, what was his standard, right?
1:56:11
That's where we derive what what kind of a man he was by reading
1:56:15
his own text, not the text that comes centuries later that go on
1:56:20
to explain who he was. That's just an anachronism.
1:56:24
So it it, it just doesn't give you a true impression of who
1:56:28
Prophet Muhammad was from the books of Hadith.
1:56:30
You have to go to the Quran to find out who he was.
1:56:33
Well, the the pushback, the pushback I would give to that is
1:56:38
that you know that yes, the Quran contains the revelations
1:56:42
of Muhammad, but it doesn't really tell you much in the way
1:56:46
of the historical background around those revelations.
1:56:50
And you know that the hadifs are the historical background behind
1:56:55
many of these revelations. And some of the hadifs, the
1:56:58
revelations in particular that are part of the Quran are
1:57:01
recorded so that you know what the historical background
1:57:04
leading to that was. So why are you rejecting?
1:57:09
Why are you rejecting the Hadees as a historical background
1:57:13
behind the revelations of the Quran when the Quran does not
1:57:17
provide its own historical background?
1:57:19
For the most well, there is one other issue I want to throw in
1:57:22
there, TTOR as well as Mr. Daniel, according to these
1:57:26
hadees, whether you like them or you support them or not, Mr.
1:57:30
Daniel, according to sources, it says that in the context of the
1:57:36
hadith, the narrations from Aisha was from herself.
1:57:41
She actually put that there that that was her age.
1:57:45
So I I don't understand why there's an argument here.
1:57:49
OK, the reason being when I studied the hadith there are
1:57:52
things that are private to the to the bedroom of the prophet
1:57:58
and I don't think the first lady Aisha was unbashful to go and
1:58:04
narrate that to a bunch of men. Bashfulness in Islam is at a
1:58:08
higher standard. We can see that in among
1:58:12
traditional Muslims. So to go out and expect the
1:58:16
first lady Aisha to detail that activity to people who are males
1:58:23
collecting hadith from her is incomprehensible.
1:58:26
That alone tells you that Aisha was not narrating these hadas to
1:58:31
these men, right? In fact, the standard for Aisha
1:58:36
being the prophet of God, being the wife of the prophet of God,
1:58:39
was to remain within the house. The Quran has a very clear
1:58:42
expectation from the first ladies of the house that they
1:58:45
are not to socialize with people.
1:58:47
So having those premises for the first lady, Aisha, I cannot
1:58:52
imagine a situation when she's interacting with these men who
1:58:55
are out there collecting hadith and she's talking to them
1:58:59
endlessly, giving them narrations.
1:59:01
That is just impossible to happen given the fact that she
1:59:04
had a different social, you know, social rules and
1:59:13
regulations around being becoming social with people.
1:59:17
The Quran tells that the wives of the prophet had to be bashful
1:59:23
within their homes, you know, and it's not easy for people to
1:59:27
socialize and. It's, I understand all that,
1:59:31
Daniel. I, I understand all what you're
1:59:33
trying to get at that she shouldn't have been able to be
1:59:36
open about all that. Well, according to the source,
1:59:39
she was having discussions with her family members about being
1:59:43
engaged and marrying. And according to this, the
1:59:46
nephew of her actually reported all that she had said.
1:59:53
No, You can imagine how much can go wrong during that process.
1:59:56
Are you able to are? You able to read private chat as
2:00:00
well as TTR if you click on private chat?
2:00:03
I put the source and the information.
2:00:05
I could put more in there. I just didn't want to cover the
2:00:08
screen when TTR has already got something up there.
2:00:11
Can you guys read that? These narrations come from Aisha
2:00:15
herself, reported the And if you, you know you, you do
2:00:20
understand Chinese whispers, right?
2:00:21
What amount of details can go wrong, how the story can build
2:00:26
and to be entirely different? I mean, we are talking of
2:00:30
timelines that are hundreds of years.
2:00:32
Saying there was a lying pen there.
2:00:37
The point being, the point being got.
2:00:40
I mean, Brett, the point being? Sorry, Daniel, I had to go
2:00:47
ahead, brother. The point being, the point being
2:00:51
prophets companions who documented the Quran, they did
2:00:56
not feel the need to document the hadith.
2:01:01
That tells you that the hadith is not required.
2:01:05
Nice cop out. Do you understand?
2:01:08
So that alone tells you the Hadid is not.
2:01:10
Important thing, this was a consternation as well as
2:01:13
engagement and marriage. Obviously the Muslims are going
2:01:16
to record that they're going to record with their prophet when
2:01:20
he got married and all this. So why would you feel that's
2:01:23
incorrect? You don't think these Muslims
2:01:25
were lying whenever they? Record because because those
2:01:30
reports contradict the expectations of the Quran.
2:01:34
They the rules that the Quran lays out, those are
2:01:38
contradictory. So if something contradicts with
2:01:40
the Quran, you necessarily reject it because Quran is what
2:01:46
the. Contradict the Quran if the
2:01:49
Quran doesn't even mention anything about it.
2:01:52
Well, the Quran says here the age for marriage is when you
2:01:55
find sound judgement in young people.
2:01:58
And for Muhammad, it was age 6. Can I, can I use some common
2:02:02
sense here real quick? I don't let me use some common
2:02:06
sense, Daniel. Daniel, just real quick, let me
2:02:09
use some common sense on us all. I don't do it often, so let me
2:02:13
get it out there, right? Isn't the common sense that
2:02:17
because nowadays, in our modern times, Muslims do go with child
2:02:22
brides, that they must mean that they sincerely believe that
2:02:26
that's how Muhammad did it, right?
2:02:29
I don't think Muslims are fond of marrying of their daughters
2:02:35
when they're still children. I never saw even one happening
2:02:38
in my own lifetime. It might happen in some cultures
2:02:42
where there are wars and things like that.
2:02:46
People don't have a secure means of subsistence in those places.
2:02:52
You can say things have gotten out of control, but in my
2:02:56
entirety of life, I have never come across a single case where
2:03:01
a child bride has been wedded off by a Muslim family.
2:03:06
I never came across that in my own life.
2:03:08
All right, it might be happening in places like Afghanistan,
2:03:11
which is being subject to war, never ending wars and people
2:03:16
don't have, you know, a safe space to leave and things like
2:03:20
that. Or even in Iraq, for example,
2:03:23
which saw brutal wars happen. But in the Islamic world, not
2:03:28
just in modern days, but back in those days, like even my, even
2:03:32
my grandparents, I don't remember them being child
2:03:35
brides, right? So that's just not the case.
2:03:39
These, these sort of discussions are facilitated because of this
2:03:45
literature, this hadith literature, which is not even an
2:03:48
Islamic source. By the way, the only Islamic
2:03:51
source is the Quran, right? That's the only Islamic source.
2:03:55
And other than the Quran, the Gospel and the the books of the
2:03:59
prophets, those are the Islamic sources, right?
2:04:03
So not the Hadith. The hadith is not an Islamic
2:04:05
source. It's basically chit chat of the
2:04:09
medieval times. People chit chatted a lot and
2:04:11
people developed stories. You know, the splitting of the
2:04:14
moon thing that's not even in the Quran.
2:04:17
And the Quran completely says no miracle will be given to Prophet
2:04:21
Muhammad other than the Quran itself.
2:04:23
So the Quran itself is a miracle.
2:04:25
The moon splitting never happened, but we have very
2:04:28
decorative, very elaborate stories about the moon split.
2:04:32
How did that come along? So people in the medieval times,
2:04:35
they had nothing to do, nothing better to do in religion rather
2:04:38
than sitting and inventing these stories.
2:04:41
So why would I believe in those stories when it's contradicts
2:04:43
with the Quran? The Quran says no miracle will
2:04:45
be given the prophet, but yet you have an elaborate storyline
2:04:49
of how the moon split. So which one would you?
2:04:51
Which one would I go with? I go with the Quran or I will go
2:04:55
with the hadith that contradicts the Quran.
2:04:58
Well, I don't blame you. I don't blame you for throwing
2:05:00
out the hadiths because according to Sayi al Bukhari
2:05:04
volume 7 chapter 425136, it says the Prophet said a matron should
2:05:11
not be given in marriage except after consulting her and a
2:05:14
virgin should not be given in marriage except after her
2:05:17
permission. The people asked O Elah's
2:05:19
messenger, how can we know her permission?
2:05:23
He said her silence indicates her permission.
2:05:27
So according to Muhammad, if you ask a woman to marry you and
2:05:32
she's silent and doesn't respond, that's consent.
2:05:36
So look, look, that's the kind of literature that you're
2:05:39
dealing with. So why do you want to trust that
2:05:40
literature to? Be I don't, I don't blame you
2:05:43
for wanting to throw it out. I'm a Christian, I don't even
2:05:46
believe in Islam, so I don't blame you for wanting to throw
2:05:49
out all of the authentic it needs to talk about Muhammad's
2:05:53
real history behind his revelation.
2:05:56
If you are a true Christian, if you are a true Christian, you
2:06:00
have to believe in Muhammad because Jesus foretold of him.
2:06:05
Jesus spoke of a future spiritual teacher who is a
2:06:08
prophet and who he said will teach you into all the truth.
2:06:13
So you're saying that the Holy Spirit is Muhammad?
2:06:16
Because I'm telling you right now, the Holy Spirit didn't bed
2:06:20
a six year old and then consummate it when she was nine.
2:06:23
That never happened. No, you don't have to believe in
2:06:26
the Hadees. You have to believe in the
2:06:27
Quran. OK, It's two different things,
2:06:30
so you should not. Christians don't have to
2:06:32
Christians don't have to believe in the Quran.
2:06:34
They have to go with their own book according to your.
2:06:37
Religion because your own book says that you have to believe in
2:06:40
a spiritual teacher that is going to come and teach you all
2:06:43
the truth. You're referring to passages
2:06:46
about the Holy Spirit, and Muhammad is not the Holy Spirit
2:06:50
because in order for that to be the case, Muhammad would have to
2:06:53
be omnipresent and Muhammad would have to be inside all
2:06:57
believers. And to associate such attributes
2:07:00
to Muhammad is shirk. It's blasting.
2:07:04
So if you open chapter one 1 John chapter 4.
2:07:08
I already know the verses. I'm not going to even open it
2:07:11
right now because. I know it's about the Holy
2:07:13
Spirit, but you have not. It's about the Holy Spirit.
2:07:18
No, I can understand the concerns that you have not to
2:07:20
open them. If you open 1 John chapter 4, it
2:07:23
clearly tells this Holy Spirit, this Spirit of God is a prophet,
2:07:30
and it gives you a test to test this man, whether he's from God.
2:07:36
So once you have tested him for the criteria that Christ lays
2:07:39
down, then you have to acknowledge this to be the
2:07:43
Spirit of God whom Christ prophesied.
2:07:48
So 1 John chapter 1, John chapter 4 lays out a test.
2:07:51
It says test of the spirits whether they are from God.
2:07:55
If they confirm to you that Christ has come in flesh from
2:07:59
God and Jesus is the Christ, then that spirit is from God.
2:08:03
So Prophet Muhammad comes along and confirms that.
2:08:06
He says Jesus indeed was the Messiah sent by God and he
2:08:10
passes the test. So therefore you have to believe
2:08:13
in Prophet Muhammad as being foretold by Jesus himself.
2:08:17
And Jesus went on to say that the Kingdom of God will be taken
2:08:21
from you Israelites and they saw their death at the hands of the
2:08:24
Romans in 70AD. And Jesus said your Kingdom will
2:08:28
be given to a different people, and the different people are the
2:08:31
Arabs whom God gave victory against the Romans, fulfilling
2:08:34
the prophecy of Prophet Daniel, which in fact Jesus wanted to.
2:08:38
Jesus came to fulfill, but it was deferred, It was delegated
2:08:42
to a future prophet because the Hebrews were not ready for it.
2:08:44
That's when Jesus says, I have many things to tell you, but
2:08:47
you're not ready for it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of
2:08:50
truth, he will guide you into all the truth.
2:08:53
And he becomes the cornerstone, the stone with which you measure
2:08:57
justice and with which you measure righteousness.
2:09:00
And ever since then, Islam has been a mountain in the Holy
2:09:03
Land, having defeated Rome so. Clearly, Rome's false too.
2:09:09
That's not a surprise. Yeah, Rome.
2:09:13
Rome was defeated by by Islam. So Islam became the 5th Kingdom,
2:09:17
the rock Kingdom, the God of the heaven, carved out of his own
2:09:19
hand. Yeah, I'm not really buying that
2:09:27
one. Yeah, why not?
2:09:29
Because Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, prophet Daniel
2:09:34
was talking to him and called him the gold head.
2:09:36
And the Persian Empire who subsumed the Babylonians became
2:09:40
the silver chested empire and then came along the Grecian
2:09:43
Empire, the bronze empire that defeated the Persians.
2:09:46
And then came along the Romans who took over the Greek Kingdom,
2:09:50
the iron feet. And then comes the time when
2:09:56
Islam comes along and defeats Rome, the iron Feet, and becomes
2:09:59
a mountain in the Holy Land. That's not talking about wrong.
2:10:04
1400 years. That's talking about the coming
2:10:07
Kingdom of God. Yeah, that's the Kingdom of God.
2:10:12
No, it's not. You are so twisted in scripture
2:10:14
it's not even funny. Who actually is?
2:10:17
It is kind of funny. Who do you think defeated
2:10:20
Romans? Excuse me?
2:10:28
Who do you think defeated Roman Empire?
2:10:34
Well, you'll have to explain what that means, because
2:10:36
technically, the Vatican is the remains of that empire.
2:10:40
No Romans got defeated in the Levant in 7th century.
2:10:45
In 634, in the Battle of Yarmouk, the Byzantine forces
2:10:48
faced a defeat at the hands of the Islamic Caliphate, the
2:10:52
Rashidun Caliphate, and in 1453 the remainder of the Roman
2:10:56
Empire in Constantinople was defeated by the Sultanate of
2:11:00
Ottomans. The Islamic Ottoman Sultanate
2:11:02
defeated Constant and took over Constantinople in 1453, putting
2:11:07
an end to the Roman Empire and the Roman Emperors.
2:11:11
So Constantine the the final Roman Empire.
2:11:15
That form of the Romans, yes. So after that, again represents
2:11:20
what's left of that. Non existent the Roman Empire
2:11:23
just this is shattered and crushed into pieces just as the
2:11:27
prophecy says that this rock that God carves out of his own
2:11:31
hand will crush these these empires of the past and you
2:11:36
know, replaces them in the Holy Land and becomes a mountain
2:11:39
there. And we have seen this for 1400
2:11:40
years. So God gives people who believe
2:11:44
in the Quran the Kingdom over the Holy Land.
2:11:49
Yeah, you are definitely not applying that scripture
2:11:51
correctly. Unfortunately, Brett, I am out
2:11:55
of time for my usual live stream hours, so I'm going to head and
2:11:59
cut out of here and get on with my time doing the other things I
2:12:03
need to do. But thanks for having me on the
2:12:05
show, Brett. Oh yeah.
2:12:06
Thanks to have you around there. Oh, sorry, Daniel.
2:12:11
Well, Daniel, I'm still going to remain.
2:12:13
You can hang out with me and all that.
2:12:15
Sure, I'm going to hang on here. All right, so thank.
2:12:18
You Thor, it was it was a very good discussion with you and
2:12:21
hopefully we'll see you in the future.
2:12:24
And if you want to debate me on any subject or topic, or even
2:12:27
just have a discussion, a friendly discussion like you had
2:12:29
here, what I'll do is I'll give you my e-mail that you can
2:12:33
e-mail me anytime and we can we can we can chat about it.
2:12:38
So just bear with me while I provide you my e-mail.
2:12:44
So there you go in the private chat.
2:12:46
That's my e-mail tour. And feel free to e-mail me
2:12:49
anytime on any subject, any topic I would love to discuss
2:12:52
with you, not necessarily debate.
2:12:55
I want to be friendly with my fellow Christian brothers.
2:12:58
So because the Quran says the Christians and the Muslims are
2:13:00
the friends of each other, and the Quran promises salvation for
2:13:05
everybody who believes in one God and believes that God will
2:13:09
judge them and believes in doing the right thing, being a good
2:13:12
neighbor. Just as much as Jesus taught us
2:13:15
to be a good citizen and a good neighbor, if we did this, we all
2:13:18
can be living eternally with Almighty God.
2:13:22
God willing, so can you, gentlemen.
2:13:25
Can you gentlemen post your links also to your YouTube
2:13:28
channels into the comments for people who've been listening?
2:13:35
Yeah. Give me one second.
2:13:40
All right. Just got to Where'd it go?
2:13:47
You know, do you want to post your links?
2:13:49
Can go check you out sub the all that good stuff.
2:13:57
I mean, emails are cool, I love keeping in contact with people,
2:14:01
but folks are going to want to know where your channel is.
2:14:03
That's how usually 90% of social media likes to interact with two
2:14:08
people's channels or their X accounts, things like that.
2:14:11
You get it right? Yeah.
2:14:16
So let me share my channel if you don't mind, on the screen
2:14:20
here. Sure, go ahead.
2:14:23
I'll just just bear with me. Well, I tried to watch out with
2:14:29
bears. I hear they can maul you now.
2:14:35
You didn't get the joke, did you?
2:14:36
That was pretty funny too. So if you want to include that,
2:14:41
so that's my channel guys, it's called Prophet Daniel has
2:14:44
spoken. I'm not a prophet.
2:14:47
So you should not misunderstand that to mean that I'm claiming
2:14:49
to be a prophet. I'm just impressed with Prophet
2:14:52
Daniel from the Bible. So I named my channel after him.
2:14:57
Prophet Daniel has spoken. That's my channel.
2:14:59
I've got around like 108 videos there.
2:15:02
There's a lot of material for you to sync in, but the
2:15:05
subscribers are too small, so 58 only until.
2:15:09
So don't. Feel free to hit the
2:15:11
subscription button and like the videos and share it and let me
2:15:15
know what you think in the comments section.
2:15:17
So guys, I'm sure you will take home a lot if you listen to all
2:15:23
of these videos and hit the bell button to to be to become aware
2:15:28
when I'm going live so you can join live and interact with me
2:15:32
so. Thank.
2:15:34
You regret for giving me the opportunity to share my channel
2:15:37
on your screen. Right on, right on me.
2:15:42
Fix your screen a little bit. I don't know what's going on in
2:15:45
there. What is up with that?
2:15:49
Oh, there we go. Now it's fixed, can I offer you
2:15:53
a suggestion? That way you don't get yourself
2:15:56
in any kind of trouble whenever you're doing live shows in the
2:15:59
future with people. Because I'm totally patient.
2:16:02
I totally enjoy good conversations, especially open
2:16:05
discussion. I prefer that over debates.
2:16:09
When you're talking with people, try to stick with the topic that
2:16:13
you originally bring up. If you bring up too much stuff,
2:16:16
people start becoming impatient and irritated and you might
2:16:19
start getting screamed at. And that's not just for
2:16:22
religious rooms, that's also for non believer rooms and all that.
2:16:26
So try to stick with the topic and then ask if it's OK to move
2:16:30
on to another one. For me, I'm totally open.
2:16:33
You can talk about whatever you like in my room.
2:16:35
I'm just saying for other people they might get pissed.
2:16:38
No, that's a very good advice and I'm taking it on board
2:16:42
immediately. So that's a very good advice.
2:16:44
And you, you made it very easy to me.
2:16:46
You said to ask the permission. Can we move on to a different
2:16:50
topic? That's it.
2:16:51
That's something that I have not been practicing.
2:16:53
But that's a very good advice from you and I'll take it
2:16:55
straight away and I'll try to remember it to to use it
2:16:58
appropriately. So thank you so much, Brad.
2:17:00
Yeah. We got somebody down here that's
2:17:03
called Brett Keene's biggest fan.
2:17:05
I'm going to have to cover the screen because I don't know who
2:17:08
this is. They might pull their their
2:17:10
penis out or something, and we can't have that.
2:17:13
So hold on a second. Hello.
2:17:16
Brett Keene's biggest fan. I'm sure you are.
2:17:18
What's up, Rigger? OK, Very nice.
2:17:22
Thank you. OK.
2:17:24
I think he called me a racial name.
2:17:26
Goodness gracious. That wasn't very nice.
2:17:30
OK, that's an atheist for you folks.
2:17:33
The rational, critical thinking humanists that they are.
2:17:37
So you back with me? You did you hear what he called
2:17:41
me? Unfortunately, you're muted,
2:17:47
Sir. Oh, really?
2:17:49
So bad? Yeah.
2:17:54
Well, he called me a racial slur.
2:17:56
I don't know if you heard that or not.
2:17:59
I mean, people should really feel to come and have a nice
2:18:04
civil conversation rather than calling out names, which is
2:18:10
which is really not modern in a in a way, we live in a modern
2:18:13
world where we have the opportunity to interact with
2:18:16
people. So you got to make use of it so.
2:18:20
Well, unfortunately, atheists are not very fond of myself as
2:18:24
well as Muslims and Christians, and I don't think that they're
2:18:27
too nice to Jews either. So they kind of throw us all
2:18:30
into the Abrahamic religion, say they hate us all.
2:18:33
Goodness gracious, it's rough, isn't it?
2:18:36
I understand that SO and some of the things they do also has
2:18:43
reasons with the people of religion because the people of
2:18:47
religion are so indisciplined that we keep fighting so much
2:18:55
and we keep imposing our judgments on each other so much
2:18:58
that it is rightfully it is rightful to think that somebody
2:19:03
is getting upset with all that behavior that we do or we put
2:19:07
out, right. So people of religion themselves
2:19:10
are to blame to certain extent because their behavior is not
2:19:13
the nicest of all. To be honest with you.
2:19:18
In the past we have been judging prophets.
2:19:20
Now we judge each other. We have, we divided the religion
2:19:24
of God against his advice and expectation into splinter groups
2:19:28
and we keep judging each splinter group and condemning
2:19:32
them to hell fire. So this is not the nicest of the
2:19:35
behaviors that people of religion put out, and rightly
2:19:37
so. An observer goes like, oh, what
2:19:40
is this? And they they'd lose their
2:19:42
brains on it. And I can understand where they
2:19:44
come from. It's partly people of religion
2:19:47
to blame and. But yeah, everything is there.
2:19:52
So people are bright enough to make good judgements for their
2:19:59
businesses, for their personal career.
2:20:02
So should they also be wise and shrewd to decide what is good
2:20:06
for them with God, right? Well I agree with you, I'm
2:20:13
personally not one of those type of people that waste my time
2:20:16
with condemning people to hell. It would be worthless of me to
2:20:20
do it anyway. I'm what you refer to as an
2:20:22
annihilationist. Yeah.
2:20:27
Are you familiar with that theological position?
2:20:31
Now go ahead and expand it please for me.
2:20:33
Annihilationist is a person who believes that Hell is the
2:20:36
destruction and death of the soul.
2:20:39
I don't. Are you still there?
2:20:41
Oh, he took off. He might have went to go poop.
2:20:46
Did you? Were you able to hear what I
2:20:47
said? Yeah, yeah.
2:20:49
I'm, I'm, I'm just here. I'm listening.
2:20:52
I I basically, I believe that the first death is the physical
2:20:56
body. You know, ass is the ass is
2:20:58
dust, the dust, and the second death is the death of the soul.
2:21:02
I don't know if you go along with this because it's a Bible
2:21:06
quote, but yeah, as you probably remember, Jesus said don't fear
2:21:10
he who can just destroy the body, but fear he who can also
2:21:13
destroy the soul. Obviously my theological
2:21:16
position isn't very, how shall I say, loved amongst Christians
2:21:21
either. They go for the Dante's Inferno,
2:21:24
you know, the torture chamber with the devils and all that
2:21:27
kind of stuff. But me, I believe the soul will
2:21:30
eventually disintegrate or be annihilated.
2:21:38
If you disagree with that, that's fine.
2:21:41
It's all good. I'm not going to get a make a
2:21:43
sad or something. So what's the secret behind your
2:21:52
background? Like why do you darken yourself
2:21:54
with with the kind of the background that I get to see
2:21:57
from you? Well, the reason why is I used
2:22:01
to do videos all the time where I showed my background, but
2:22:04
there's a lot of unfortunately, although I got a lot of fans and
2:22:08
also people who love me, I have people who would like to cause
2:22:11
me harm and destruction and all that.
2:22:13
And if they see an address in the background or they see, you
2:22:18
know, one of my kids run by or a family member, I don't want them
2:22:21
to see that. I've had a lot of problems.
2:22:24
If you type my name into YouTube, you're going to see
2:22:26
that I've got a huge hater base and fan base.
2:22:30
I get around. Whoa, whoa, OK, you.
2:22:35
Think I got it bad Muslims get treated pretty disrespectful on
2:22:40
the Internet as well, as you probably know that.
2:22:43
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was this guy the
2:22:47
other day, a Muslim guy come onto my channel and abused me
2:22:52
with swear words like, like, so you have these extremists in
2:22:56
every religion. And you know, the extremists are
2:23:00
quite damaging to the religion and to God.
2:23:05
Extreme positions are very unhelpful to to God and to
2:23:09
religion as such. But you can't help it.
2:23:13
People are people, you know, you can't help it and only God can
2:23:18
look after them so. You have to keep.
2:23:21
They have to behave good. They have to behave in.
2:23:23
Mind, you got to keep in mind when you do live shows or
2:23:28
interaction like this, you're not just dealing with people who
2:23:31
have disagreeable religions. You're dealing with psychopaths
2:23:34
and sociopaths, you know, crazy people and all that.
2:23:38
So you got to always keep that in mind when talking to folks.
2:23:41
I've talked to some people who have admitted to be in
2:23:43
psychopaths, but they were very articulate.
2:23:46
You look nice in the moment because they were on medication.
2:23:51
Absolutely so, So yeah, the world is the way it is, but it's
2:23:59
also gotten a lot safer. We are not living the times of
2:24:02
Jesus where he was really afraid.
2:24:07
Every, every now and then, we, we sit in our spaces from in our
2:24:11
homes and we do this. We, we, we are much safer today,
2:24:15
so to speak, you know, than putting ourselves in the shoes
2:24:19
of the prophets who really had to endure quite, quite an amount
2:24:24
of stress and stressful life, which was not easy for Jeremiah
2:24:29
to be sitting in the prison and expecting a death sentence to
2:24:32
come out anytime wasn't easy from him for him.
2:24:35
And ultimately he gets killed. But you can imagine the sore
2:24:39
situation for the prophets, which is very, which is very,
2:24:44
you know, not appealing to the to the human being like, but
2:24:48
somehow that still becomes a practice among religious
2:24:51
communities that good people suffer so much at their own
2:24:55
hands, let alone suffering from foreigners.
2:24:58
You know what I mean? So a prophet is not called a
2:25:01
prophet in his own hometown. Jesus says so let, let alone
2:25:06
from suffering from foreigners, their own people become such an
2:25:11
obstacle, such an hindrance, such a challenge that you know,
2:25:16
people have to suffer because of their own people.
2:25:19
That's just a sad situation for human beings.
2:25:23
It is, it is. You had a you'd said that and I,
2:25:27
I find it very interesting. Oh, Smokey, if you'd like to
2:25:31
come in and chat with us, you're more than welcome.
2:25:33
I understand that you probably felt like things would be
2:25:36
uncomfortable with you and TTOR at the moment, I get that.
2:25:40
But you are welcome to come in and chat if you want.
2:25:43
So Daniel, you had said that you you consider Christians brothers
2:25:47
and sisters. I'm not accustomed to a Muslim
2:25:50
saying that. Are you staying out in another
2:25:53
podcast with a guy named Brother Maverick and the Muslims that
2:25:57
would come in the room, they weren't very, they're not, they
2:26:00
weren't considerate and respectful like you have been.
2:26:04
I, I tried with all my might, the way I'm talking to you now,
2:26:07
being loved, being respectful and open minded.
2:26:10
But man, they were pissy. So why do you think it is that
2:26:14
you're so different than some of the Muslims that we've engaged,
2:26:18
unfortunately? Well, Muslims also come in
2:26:24
various backgrounds and modes of operation, indoctrination,
2:26:32
extremism, fanaticism, and moderates and people who are
2:26:37
really truth seekers. So you have all of these
2:26:41
different types of Muslims and they have very varying
2:26:46
experiences of learning their own religion and learning the
2:26:50
larger world. So there is all this, these
2:26:54
religions are a mishmash of all of these individuals who come
2:26:59
from different spectrums. The same applies to Christianity
2:27:02
and also to Judaism or to any of the group, for example.
2:27:06
And people are interacting, they come with their own personality.
2:27:09
Some of them are rogue, some of them are most gentle.
2:27:13
So you you get to deal with all of these people and experience
2:27:17
their reactions to some of the things that go on in the world.
2:27:21
And some of those things are not nice and some of those things
2:27:23
are civil. So, you know, that's that's just
2:27:26
the way life is. And I do now recollect when you
2:27:29
mention Maverick that you were on his channel.
2:27:32
Now I recollect that that you were with Maverick the other the
2:27:36
day that was talking to you guys.
2:27:39
Yeah. And ever since then, I'm waiting
2:27:41
for Maverick to to, you know, have a conversation with me.
2:27:46
But maybe he's just running busy with his own life and hasn't
2:27:50
found the time to talk to me. But yeah, I would love to love
2:27:53
to talk to Maverick. And now I recollect that you
2:27:56
were on this channel or so. So yeah, it's good.
2:28:05
Oh dear, I just read some really hardcore news that personally
2:28:09
affects us both. You want to hear about it real
2:28:12
quick? Yeah, go ahead.
2:28:15
Apparently somebody that's in high authority in Russia was
2:28:19
talking some some jive ass trash.
2:28:22
So Donald Trump has put two nuclear submarines and some of
2:28:26
the regions around Russia and has declared that if any they do
2:28:31
any of the things that they talked about, then he is more
2:28:35
than prepared to take us into a nuclear war.
2:28:38
I thought you might want to know that because if I get blown up,
2:28:41
you get blown up too, and I kind of like you.
2:28:44
So yeah. So where are you reading this on
2:28:49
the news? I'm actually it's AI follow
2:28:55
Trump on truth Social and also that's with Elon Musk.
2:29:00
So whenever he typed crazy shit I always get a notification and
2:29:04
Trump he 90% of the day is always saying something crazy.
2:29:08
So I'd try to keep. Yeah, it's also on the news.
2:29:10
I can see on the news as well. It's it's come up on the news.
2:29:15
Yeah, well, let's hope that that doesn't happen.
2:29:17
I don't have anything personal against Russia.
2:29:20
I don't want to blow them up, and I sure as hell don't want to
2:29:23
die either. So hopefully these idiots and
2:29:26
politics straighten their shit out, you know what I mean?
2:29:29
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, I think nuclear,
2:29:35
nuclear, nuclear weapon is, is a, is a sure deterrence to
2:29:42
everybody, even to those who use it, like who would want to use
2:29:46
it? It's a deterrence for sure.
2:29:48
So people are not that dumb, especially the capitalists.
2:29:51
They're not that dumb to lose their fortunes.
2:29:54
So they will not, they will not blow up.
2:29:56
I think as long as the world remains with capitalists, they
2:30:01
will ensure that, you know, their assets are intact and they
2:30:05
won't get blown away. You know what I mean?
2:30:07
You know, you were talking earlier about how you were
2:30:10
talking earlier about how dangerous it was in ancient
2:30:13
times. And I agree with you.
2:30:15
But I think that the people back then had more balls.
2:30:18
And the reason why I say that is because back in the day when
2:30:21
somebody messed with you or gave your family any issue, you take
2:30:25
them out in the field and you take them out man to man.
2:30:28
But nowadays we got these assholes.
2:30:30
You can just push a button and end it all for everybody.
2:30:33
That sucks. That's weak, you know what I
2:30:36
mean? Perfectly correct.
2:30:37
I'm going to agree with you with the with the kind of statement
2:30:40
that he just made. People had more balls that they
2:30:43
would show up on the battlefield and they would not really cause
2:30:48
a great collateral damage to innocents and civilians.
2:30:52
But these days the battles are different.
2:30:54
They're fought from within the communities and suburbs, causing
2:30:57
a lot of collateral damage and causing a lot of innocent
2:31:01
deaths, which was not the case previously.
2:31:03
People would take a sword, take their shield and come onto the
2:31:06
battlefield and fight, live or die, you know what I mean?
2:31:10
It was completely a different world, much better world as
2:31:13
compared to today because of inventions, the bombs and the
2:31:17
planes and all of that sort of stuff.
2:31:18
So the scientific inventions have not been really gracious to
2:31:22
humankind. I agree and I absolutely agree.
2:31:26
They those were real men and women back in the day.
2:31:30
They they took, you know, they took their man out eye to eye,
2:31:34
face to face. There was no, oh, I'm going to
2:31:37
hide in the shadows and push little buttons and stuff and
2:31:40
make everybody go away thing. That's nonsense.
2:31:43
No respect there whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
2:31:48
I mean, you need the guts to come and wage of warfare.
2:31:51
Come and fight for yourself. I mean, even today, if if
2:31:55
democracies put out this election mandate that, you know,
2:31:59
if you want to fight a war, you have to go really to the
2:32:01
battlefield with the swords and fight it out for yourself, that
2:32:05
would be so much better. But far from happening because
2:32:10
the warfare has just taken an entirely different direction and
2:32:14
route. So there's there's no returning
2:32:17
from that position. So.
2:32:19
Yeah, I don't think Americans are up for getting them to field
2:32:23
battles anymore. We've become too obese and too
2:32:26
comforted. We're we can barely get up to
2:32:29
find a remote control nowadays. It's rough.
2:32:37
So tell me more about yourself. You fascinate me.
2:32:40
You're an interesting person. So yeah, I mean, I was telling
2:32:44
you my story of upbringing and reading the scriptures and I
2:32:52
told you briefly the story of Hulk Hogan, how I related to
2:32:55
Christians in America. And my very first visit to
2:33:00
America was in 2009 or 8, maybe, maybe 2008, late 2008 is when I
2:33:08
first visited America. And as soon as I got went to
2:33:13
planes in America, like I landed in America, then I think I
2:33:17
landed in Minnesota. I think that's where I land 1st.
2:33:22
And then I took a plane into North Dakota, a very frigid
2:33:28
place. But yeah, on that plane, I think
2:33:32
I met a few Americans and the first thing I had was an
2:33:37
interaction of faith. You know, the first, the first
2:33:41
ever conversation out of my fascination to meet Americans
2:33:44
and talk to them about religion was I, I remember having an
2:33:48
interaction of faith on the plane, on the small little plane
2:33:52
that flew into North Dakota. And there were two Americans,
2:33:57
males that were sitting next to me, and we were chatting about,
2:34:00
and I was telling them about the Quran, how the Quran is, you
2:34:04
know, or what's the background of it, how it's the word of God.
2:34:09
And yeah, I remember that very vividly in my brain.
2:34:13
I can never forget that conversation that I had with the
2:34:16
Americans the very first time I met them on the plane.
2:34:21
And yeah, after that I visited America a few more times and I
2:34:25
stayed in San Diego for quite some time.
2:34:29
And I made very good friends with lots of people at the
2:34:32
Jehovah's Witnesses. They were meeting with me
2:34:34
regularly there. Every weekend, every Sunday I
2:34:37
would meet up with them. And there were a few more, few
2:34:40
other churches that I visited very frequently.
2:34:43
The one I lived very next to next, like next door church,
2:34:47
there was a Lutheran Church that I visited there.
2:34:49
And there was a very good pastor that I met there, and she was a
2:34:54
woman pastor, and I would frequently visit her and have
2:34:58
chats about interfaith and learn from them, their faith, and
2:35:04
teach some of what I knew of Islam back then.
2:35:08
And yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed my time in America and
2:35:13
meeting people there. Much more friendlier.
2:35:16
Even atheists were very friendlier back then.
2:35:19
Maybe they've gotten bad now, but back then they were very
2:35:22
friendlier. I had a friend at my workplace,
2:35:26
Bob, a very, very good man, an atheist.
2:35:29
But these days I think he is inclined towards having faith,
2:35:34
OK, which is a good thing. But back then he was an atheist.
2:35:38
And we would usually pick up on conversations after the work and
2:35:42
we would go together snorkeling in, in, in the La Jolla coast,
2:35:46
you know, Cove. And yeah, we, we, we had some
2:35:50
nice time with, I had some nice time with my friend Bob there.
2:35:54
And we would chat about God respectfully.
2:35:57
And he would always tell me, Masood, we don't know how
2:36:01
hydrogen came and how the gravity came and how the weak
2:36:05
forces and the strong forces came.
2:36:08
Once we know that we wouldn't need God anymore.
2:36:11
But recently, my recent chats with him, I still call him
2:36:15
sometimes. So in my recent chat with him,
2:36:17
he acknowledged Masood. We still don't know where
2:36:20
hydrogen and gravity came from. So therefore I want to believe
2:36:23
he said to me. So that was fun chatting with
2:36:27
him and hopefully he's a believer.
2:36:29
But yeah, I don't know. I can't tell you that for sure.
2:36:33
But yeah, let's, let's pray. Let's pray to God that God
2:36:37
brings him along into the fold of faith and belief, you know,
2:36:42
and I believe that I believe because the Quran says so.
2:36:48
The Quran says in chapter 2, verse 62 and also in chapter 5.
2:36:53
There's a verse number I don't recollect on top of my head, but
2:36:56
there's a verse that repeats itself in the Quran.
2:36:59
It tells anyone from the Muslims, from the Christians,
2:37:03
from the Jewish people and from non Abrahamic people anyone, any
2:37:08
human being who believes in one creator God and believes that
2:37:13
this creator God will judge them for their actions and lives.
2:37:20
A life of kindness to others will not have to fear on
2:37:27
judgement day nor grieve because God be sure God is going to give
2:37:32
them their rewards. So I believe salvation is for
2:37:37
everybody who believed in one God and that he, he, they will
2:37:41
be judged by this one God and conduct themselves well.
2:37:46
As long as they live planet earth, they will find eternal
2:37:49
life with Almighty God. That's my belief rooted in the
2:37:53
Quran. And therefore the Quran also
2:37:56
treats fellow Christians as friends.
2:37:59
So Christians and Muslims, there's nothing like it in the
2:38:03
world. There's no other religion after
2:38:05
the 1st century. Like for example Sikhism is a
2:38:08
religion that came along in 1600s but doesn't even have to
2:38:12
say anything at all about Jesus Christ.
2:38:15
So Quran is the only faith that proclaims Jesus to be the
2:38:20
Messiah sent by God and as such is a complementary faith to
2:38:26
Christianity and a friendly faith to Christianity.
2:38:29
And Christians and Muslims are expected to be friendly and
2:38:33
brotherly. And yeah, that's, but
2:38:36
unfortunately the world doesn't function like that.
2:38:39
And Muslims and Christians try to beat up each other like in
2:38:42
MMA on their debates. And that's, that's very harsh of
2:38:47
how they're treating each other. They can grow a little bit more
2:38:51
and learn to treat, treat each other a bit better, bit
2:38:54
friendlier, bit brotherly. That's all good.
2:38:57
I mean, it works out good to the God of the to the glory of the
2:39:00
God and his Kingdom. So we have to learn better
2:39:04
behavior. Christians and Muslims and then
2:39:07
Jewish, Jewish people will will catch up if we if we showed them
2:39:12
how to behave good, they will catch up.
2:39:14
So. So that's what I believe.
2:39:18
Yeah. You want to say something?
2:39:19
Go ahead and say I've been talking for a while now.
2:39:22
Well, I appreciate what you're saying and I, and I think that
2:39:26
you're definitely agreeable and in your point there and
2:39:30
everybody getting along. I've been, I've been on social
2:39:34
media off and on for like 20 years and I've always tried to
2:39:38
be kind and respectful. But like I told you earlier,
2:39:41
there's people that are, there's infighting between Christians,
2:39:46
there's Muslims fighting Muslims.
2:39:47
I mean, even you said a Muslim came in, cursed you out for no
2:39:50
damn reason whatsoever. I mean, we can't even clean our
2:39:54
own houses and we're supposed to fix the backyard too.
2:39:58
I, I don't know my my thought is this and it might be a little
2:40:02
critical and rough. I have absolute trust in God,
2:40:06
but I don't have the 1% trust in humanity.
2:40:09
Humanity is has turned into something.
2:40:12
This is not acceptable at this point.
2:40:15
I like you though. Thank you and I like you.
2:40:22
I don't know the solution, I don't know the solution.
2:40:25
You and I are very nice people. Obviously, if you're like this
2:40:29
all the time and all that, I can't understand possibly why
2:40:33
anybody would be rude or hateful to you.
2:40:35
Same for myself, though I don't understand.
2:40:38
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely hopefully.
2:40:43
I mean, let us hope that streams like this will sort of paint a
2:40:50
good picture out there for people who are listeners and
2:40:53
viewers of the stream. They might take a theme or two
2:40:57
away with them and try to be nice after this if they were not
2:41:01
nice before. So I think more good content on
2:41:05
the Internet will sort of encourage people to be good and
2:41:08
learn good, rather than the sort of content that goes on where
2:41:12
people are ripping each other down, shredding each other down,
2:41:16
calling names. Basically, people are like
2:41:20
sponges. They learn what they see and
2:41:23
they imitate what they learn. So we have to put out more good
2:41:27
content so people can learn the good behavior and treat each
2:41:33
other a bit more better than they would treat otherwise, you
2:41:37
know? Well, the problem is, is that
2:41:40
YouTube and ex social media and Facebook, they reward
2:41:44
controversy and drama. They reward people with movies.
2:41:49
For some, you know how you said you love Hulk Hogan and all
2:41:52
that? Well, people like a good fight.
2:41:54
They like to see bloodshed and destruction.
2:41:56
I mean, just look at American movies.
2:41:58
We ain't happy unless we see at least 10 people slaughtered in
2:42:02
the film. So that's what we're up against
2:42:06
now. We might read a few here and
2:42:07
there with kindness and kisses and all that, but I don't know
2:42:12
about the majority. So how, how, how far?
2:42:19
How far along do you intend to stay?
2:42:21
Or is it a different time that we can latch on another time?
2:42:24
Or what do you reckon? Well, I've been known to go
2:42:29
quite a few hours. I've been known to be short.
2:42:31
That depends on who the person is I'm talking to.
2:42:34
I don't mind if it's one-on-one or if it's a group or whatever.
2:42:39
And you seem like an interesting person.
2:42:41
I figure when you're done, you're done.
2:42:45
OK. So I will call my shots here and
2:42:49
I will. I will, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm
2:42:54
willing to engage with you in the future so we can write back
2:42:57
to each other on emails and if we have a topic that you would
2:43:00
like to talk about, we could talk about it and in the future
2:43:05
episode, if you don't mind, well.
2:43:08
That'd be great. One of the things that you
2:43:10
brought up is fascinating, but I didn't want to keep you on the
2:43:14
hot fire the entire conversation.
2:43:16
I wanted to get to know you a little bit, but you mentioned
2:43:19
Jeremiah and the and with the lying pen.
2:43:23
And remember you'd said at some point time you were going to
2:43:26
give me specifics about what I should perceive as lies and what
2:43:30
is truth. That'll help out with the
2:43:33
analysis. Sure, sure.
2:43:35
So yeah, sure we will talk about it once I once I put out some
2:43:39
preparation, I will write to you an e-mail and we can set up a
2:43:43
stream on that and we can talk about it.
2:43:46
Do you like the idea? That sounds good.
2:43:49
And remember, I'm always up for open discussion.
2:43:52
It doesn't have to be a screaming match or a debate or
2:43:55
anything. I'm willing to hear you out.
2:43:58
Got you. Yeah, I appreciate it.
2:44:00
From the bottom of my heart, Brett, you have a good day and
2:44:04
God bless you and your family and me and my family as well.
2:44:10
So I do have one last question for you.
2:44:12
You informed me that you used to have a good friend, I believe
2:44:15
his name was Bob, an atheist. What happened with that?
2:44:19
It sounds like that's past tense.
2:44:22
No, he, he, I think I've not spoken to him for a few months
2:44:27
now, but he actually, I don't know, I should say this on the,
2:44:33
on the, on the stream here, but let's pray to God that, you
2:44:37
know, he looks after him and, and he brings him to be a
2:44:42
believer, right? So the last time I talked to
2:44:45
him, he said he, he wants to be, he was not comfortable being a
2:44:49
Muslim believer. And I assured him to be a
2:44:52
Christian believer or some sort of believer at least, but not an
2:44:56
atheist. So I I requested him to believe
2:45:00
in the creator God who gave him life and he will be brought back
2:45:05
to his creator God. And I requested him to believe
2:45:09
in him and thank him for having given him life.
2:45:12
So not necessarily a Muslim or a Christian if he does not want to
2:45:17
be 1, but yeah, so. I don't understand the point
2:45:23
that he made though, where if we understand gravity or hydrogen
2:45:27
and all this I believe is what you said, then then we don't
2:45:31
need the concept of God. Even if you knew how gravity
2:45:35
actually worked and all this, it still doesn't answer the
2:45:39
question of its origin, how it came into existence, especially
2:45:43
if we go with The Big Bang theory.
2:45:47
So basically there was the God of the gaps was a big thing, an
2:45:51
objection that atheists and agnostics and skeptics basically
2:45:55
brought that argument as a big thing that we don't we we need
2:46:00
God because we can't explain certain things.
2:46:03
So that became popular some time ago and even even today people
2:46:08
think that's, I think people believe because they can't
2:46:12
explain it all. And if you explained it, you
2:46:15
don't need the agency perception any longer.
2:46:21
So you don't need the belief any longer.
2:46:23
So that's the deduction that they draw from the God of the
2:46:27
gaps, you know, argument, argument.
2:46:31
But I understand Bob was made to believe that argument was legit
2:46:38
argument. And from that premise, he was
2:46:40
arguing, yeah, we haven't learned about how hydrogen came
2:46:45
from or gravity came from or the weak and the strong force came
2:46:50
from. So therefore, he's he thinks he
2:46:53
should now believe because he is.
2:46:56
He's inching towards his end days, so to speak.
2:47:01
He's lived his life, he's had a lifetime, and he's found no
2:47:05
answer. So he somehow feels it's the
2:47:09
right time to believe for him. So I can understand where he
2:47:13
comes from. And I said it's important that
2:47:15
he believed because God gave him life and he enjoyed it and he
2:47:19
should be grateful to God that he got that life from Almighty
2:47:22
God. So he should at least say thank
2:47:24
you to God. And that would be
2:47:26
acknowledgement that God the Creator exists and that would
2:47:30
pave the way for him to attain salvation and eternal life.
2:47:35
So I hope he believes and not being agnostic or doubtful about
2:47:43
the Creator. But yes, we can just only pray
2:47:46
and hope so. Well, I hope so for sure, but
2:47:50
think about it for a minute. I don't know, when I when I'm
2:47:53
having discussions, I usually try to entertain what the person
2:47:58
saying to see where it follows up its conclusion.
2:48:01
And let's say today you were given some kind of mathematical
2:48:05
equation that that told you exactly how hydrogen can be made
2:48:11
and come into existence. And what way does that discredit
2:48:15
or invalidate Allah or God or Jesus, whatever, whatever
2:48:20
representation he put? If you knew today where hydrogen
2:48:24
came from or why it exists, how does that invalidate God?
2:48:29
Not to me. I would see that as as good as
2:48:35
how we have understood other things, even maybe the creation
2:48:40
of planet Earth or the, the origins of species or even the
2:48:46
kind of things we make from our own intelligence, the capability
2:48:50
that we have achieved in terms of technology and in terms of
2:48:56
innovative development and all that sort of stuff.
2:48:58
I, I would not necessarily interpret that to disqualify
2:49:02
God, but that was the position where some atheists come from.
2:49:08
But to me, that's not that. That has not been an issue.
2:49:13
Knowledge does not falsify God. Knowledge only confirms God's
2:49:20
position as the one who ushers knowledge and gives us the
2:49:24
capacity to understand some of some of His creations, so that
2:49:30
that might also include hydrogen and gravity in the weak and the
2:49:33
strong force. Well, one of the things that
2:49:38
kind of annoys me about the whole God of the gaps thing is I
2:49:42
feel as though it's a deliberate misrepresentation of all of the
2:49:47
Abrahamic faith groups. And the reason why is because it
2:49:51
was Christians, Muslims and even some Jews and pagans who you
2:49:56
actually even came up with the concept of science.
2:49:59
Most of your revolutionary scientist of all times, a
2:50:02
majority of them were faith-based.
2:50:05
They believed in God. Einstein even said the more I
2:50:08
study science, the more I believe in God.
2:50:12
So when atheists come along acting like they're the
2:50:14
Champions of science, it just pisses me off a little.
2:50:19
Yeah, true, true. They're trying to hijack the
2:50:21
whole situation of science. While initial scientists have
2:50:26
been believers both from the Muslims and from the Christian
2:50:29
backgrounds, it's believers whom God blessed with this knowledge.
2:50:34
So basically they were believers.
2:50:35
All the inventions, the the Thomas Alva Edison who invented
2:50:39
electricity, the electric bulb, he was a believer.
2:50:43
So all of these famous people who made some fascinating
2:50:46
inventions that gone to benefit huge humanities, you know, you
2:50:51
know, for generations and millions of people benefit out
2:50:54
of their inventions. They were believers.
2:50:56
They were not disbelievers because of those inventions.
2:51:00
Yeah, I believe, Daniel, that people of faith are more
2:51:03
encouraged to do proper science and a non believer and I'll,
2:51:07
I'll explain why. A person who believes that a God
2:51:11
created all things is going to be motivated and realizes
2:51:15
there's going to be information that can be found and it's worth
2:51:19
the the effort to go look for it.
2:51:22
But a person who already has made-up their mind and says
2:51:26
there's nothing out there, there's no God, there's no yadda
2:51:29
yadda yadda, why the hell would they even want to bother them?
2:51:33
Absolutely. They would want to have a
2:51:35
enjoyable life, basically. So I agree with you.
2:51:40
I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more.
2:51:43
So there is motivation for people of faith to go and do the
2:51:46
work, do the right thing, be helpful, be I mean, not, not to
2:51:52
not to rule out that atheists are not helpful.
2:51:57
I'm not saying that. OK, it might not have.
2:52:01
Atheists are very good people. Some of them are very good
2:52:03
people. They're better than people of
2:52:05
religion sometimes. But yeah, you, you find these
2:52:09
goods and bads everywhere. And you also find bad people in
2:52:14
religion and you also find bad people in in atheist circles.
2:52:19
So you find good people and bad people that's everywhere and
2:52:22
it's in every country, every culture.
2:52:25
It's everywhere basically so. Exactly, that's the very reason
2:52:29
why we need God, because we are a messed up species.
2:52:33
Well, if you've got some family to take care or some things you
2:52:36
got to do, I completely understand.
2:52:39
It was a pleasure talking to you and I personally hope that your
2:52:44
intention and your mission to get people to get along with
2:52:47
each other works. That'd be really cool.
2:52:50
Let me know when that happens. Thank you so much, Brett.
2:52:53
I wish you all the best and God bless.
2:52:55
God bless you and your family. We'll see you later.
2:52:58
All right. God bless you man.
2:53:00
Take care. All right, we got somebody here
2:53:04
called Mush Mouth. Let me put something over the
2:53:07
screen. That way they don't do something
2:53:09
rude. You won't last long if you
2:53:12
scream out some nonsense. What's up?
2:53:15
Hey, man, have you ever played Far Cry?
2:53:21
That takes care of that. Just going to come in and start
2:53:24
jumping on about Far Cry. Oh, boy.
2:53:27
Doesn't say. Hey, how you doing, Brett Keane?
2:53:29
Let's have a good conversation. Just jumps right into it.
2:53:33
Got to learn how to not be so antisocial.
2:53:36
Let's see what we got all right.