Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 765: The Future of Our Hunting Culture with Andrew McKean

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Ep. 765: The Future of Our Hunting Culture with Andrew McKean · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the whitetail Woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the show, I am joined by Andrew McKean for important
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: conversation about the future of our hunting community and culture.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: All Right, welcome back to another episode of the Wired
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: their Camel for Conservation Initiative, which is a program that
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: sends a portion of every sale of First Light Specter
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Camo to the National Deer Association should help them with
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: their mission to do good things for the future of deer,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: deer hunting and deer hunters. And today we are having
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: a discussion that is very relevant to the future of
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: deer and deer hunters and the deer hunting community, which
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: is a part of this ongoing series this month revolving
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: around the culture of hunting. And we kicked this off
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago with Dan and Tony and
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of riffing and wondering and spitballing about
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: a series of different topics that all kind of fit
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: into this idea of our culture, everything from the technology
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: we use and the and the ways that we hunt,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: and the ways we talk about hunting and the ways
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: we showcase it, the many different disagreements we can sometimes
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: have within our different kind of microcultures of the world
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: of hunting. There's there's there's a whole lot to it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And I think that that first episode with Tony and
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Dan and myself was kind of just a kicking off point,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of different questions and concerns and thoughts.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: But today I wanted to take it to that next
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: level with somebody who I think can bring to bear
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: a level of experience and leadership within the community of
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: hunters that can can point to us maybe in a
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: better direction. And that's why I wanted to bring Andrew
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: McKean onto the show today. Andrew is, without a doubt,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: one of the leaders of our hunting community. He has
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: worked at Outdoor Life for many many years now, once
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: as their editor in chief, now is their Hunting and
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Conservation editor. He has been one of our foremost thinkers
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: and speakers about everything from actual hunting practices to the
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: intersection of hunting and gear, to public lands advocacy, wildlife
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  Speaker 2: management policy, and a whole lot more in addition to that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And he simply is one of the wisest folks within
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: this world that I know of and who I frequently
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: turned to and look to his thoughts and guidance on
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: many of these things. And so that makes him, in
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: my opinion, the perfect person here today to help us
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: take this discussion to the next level. And that's exactly
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: what we did. Andrew had a lot to contribute to
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: this series of ideas in this conversation that we're having
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: over the course of the month, and I couldn't be
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: more excited to share that conversation with you. I really
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: got a lot from this one. I think you will too. Yeah,
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: we're not talking about how to kill more deer, how
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: to kill bigger deer to have more success this coming season,
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  Speaker 2: which I know we'd like to have those types of
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: conversations as often as possible. Right, that's the kind of
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: thing that gets excited, you know, to get out there
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and to listen to these podcasts. But this month where
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: we're talking about the culture of hunting, This is really
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: important stuff. This is the glue that binds it all together.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: This is the foundation that all of our opportunities rest on.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: If we don't have a strong hunting culture, if that's
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: not right, then nothing else is going to operate SMOOTHI either.
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  Speaker 2: It's kind of like and I'm just this has just
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: coming to me as I'm thinking here. But you know,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: if your marriage isn't right, if there's something not right
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: in your relationship with your significant other, it takes away
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: all the good stuff across the rest of your life. Right,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: how many of you can relate to this. You got
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: in a hunting trip, but you just came off of
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: a fight with your wife or or whatever it is,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: and then the whole time you're out there on your
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: hunting trip, you can't actually enjoy it because you're worrying
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: about this other stuff going on. You're thinking, you're stewing,
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  Speaker 2: You're concerned about this other thing. Right. If you can't
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  Speaker 2: get that stuff right, then the rest is lacking a
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: certain something, And that I think is very much the
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  Speaker 2: case within the world of hunting. If there are if
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  Speaker 2: there's miscontent, if there's malecontent, if there's concern, if there's
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  Speaker 2: this kind of toxic thing floating around the culture of
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  Speaker 2: our hunting community. It's going to take away from our
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: own enjoyment of hunting and our ability to hunt in
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  Speaker 2: the future, and our ability for this thing to be
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: as good and fulfilling as it possibly can be, and
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  Speaker 2: possibly for us to even be able to partake in
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  Speaker 2: this thing in the future. So that's why these conversations
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  Speaker 2: I think are important not just to have on this podcast,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: but for us all to continue out beyond them. These
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  Speaker 2: types of conversations are useful and good for us to have,
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  Speaker 2: not just between me and someone on the show, but
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: between you and your buddy, or you and your dad,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: or you and your brother, or you and your wife,
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  Speaker 2: whatever it is. These types of chats are really really
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: healthy for us to engage in, and I'm hoping that
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: this series here this month will help kickstart more of
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  Speaker 2: that at the diner, at the bar, at the deer camp,
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  Speaker 2: wherever it is. I hope you will continue this conversation yourself,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: think about these issues yourself, and that's the kind of
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  Speaker 2: thing that I think will lead to a more positive
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: future for all of us moving forward. So that's my
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: pitch for you today. I don't know if I'm going
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to get any takers, but I'm hoping so. And before
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: we get to my chat with Andrew, I do want
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: to give you a quick heads up on something related
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: to someone I mentioned at the very beginning, which is
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: the National Deer Association. They've got a big old sweepstakes
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: going on right now, which I just want to give
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: a friendly plug, which is there United for Deer Sweepstakes.
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  Speaker 2: They've got a whole bunch of different big gear packages
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  Speaker 2: they're giving away, and you can enter to win stuff
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  Speaker 2: like a ten thousand dollars gift card from Academy Sports,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: a UTV package from Tracker, an Elk hunting package, a
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: deer hunting package, both of which include big old first
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: light gift cards, all sorts of prizes from folks like
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Vortex ELPs, Leopold, bog weatherb Vortex pH Outdoors. The list
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: goes on and on and on. You can enter at
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: different price points and man it all those dollars go
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to support the National Deer Association and they're very, very
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: good work. Full disclosure. I am on the board of directors,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: so I am biased, but I have been a member
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  Speaker 2: for fifteen plus years, maybe almost twenty years now, and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: they're one of those organizations that I believe in more
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  Speaker 2: than almost any other. You know that if you've been
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: listening for the years, I've talked to folks and we've
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: brought folks on from the NBA year after year after
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  Speaker 2: year because they are tremendous recent source and tremendous advocates
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  Speaker 2: for deer and deer hunters. So here's an opportunity to
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: support them, to give back and make sure these folks
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  Speaker 2: can continue doing that good work. So heading over to
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  Speaker 2: Dear Association dot com if you're interested in doing that,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's participating in the sweepstakes or just giving them
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: the donation becoming a member, it is all worthwhile and
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  Speaker 2: I would encourage you to do so if you're interested.
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  Speaker 2: So with all that said, let's get to the main
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  Speaker 2: meat and potatoes of our podcast today, my conversation with
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  Speaker 2: Andrew McKeen. All right here with me back on the
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  Speaker 2: show after a long absence. Is Andrew McKean. Andrew, great
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: to see you.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, that's great to see you. It's been way way,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: way too long, and we've resolved that we're like equal opportunity. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: we're both to blame.
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  Speaker 2: Well that Well, it's so funny because you are someone
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  Speaker 2: who I don't think I've ever told you this, but
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  Speaker 2: I feel like you are such a kindred spirit in
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: that whenever I hear you talking on another podcast or
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: whenever I read of one of your articles, I just
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: find myself like nodding along, just saying that yes, yes, yes,
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  Speaker 2: like all the time. There are plenty of people that
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I see on social media or read their stuff or
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: see their stuff, and in my head, I'm just thinking no, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: but you you are are yes, yes, yes. I find
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  Speaker 2: so much. I've learned so much from you over the years, Andrew,
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  Speaker 2: and I have found guidance from you, not just in
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: like how to hunt, but how to conduct ourselves as hunters,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: how to advocate as a hunter and a conservationist. So
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  Speaker 2: I just want to open this by thanking you for
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: the leadership and example you have shown all of this
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  Speaker 2: over your years doing this work. So thank you for that,
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  Speaker 2: and thanks for being here and being a part of this.
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  Speaker 3: Man. Well, I didn't expect that. It almost feels like,
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  Speaker 3: you know, when's the memorial service, But I'll take it.
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  Speaker 3: It's funny, like I actually deeply appreciate that for a
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  Speaker 3: maybe unexpected reason, and that is I was talking to
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  Speaker 3: a friend the other day who was the subject of
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: kind of accolades and like public recognition, and Hugh like,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: I don't quite know how to take it. But our
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: conversation was like men in general don't know how to
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: take a compliment and will either like deflective way from
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: it or we'll like laugh about it. But that is
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  Speaker 3: super meaningful and I am grateful to you for that.
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  Speaker 2: So thanks, Well, you're welcome. It's well deserved, and you
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  Speaker 2: are joining me here, I think in a really important
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  Speaker 2: part of this series that we kicked off, and I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: know you're aware of the series, the series on kind
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: of the the culture of hunting and the state of
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: that culture. And in our first first episode, as you know,
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  Speaker 2: I was joined by my pals Tony and Dan, and
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  Speaker 2: we just kind of rift on this topic and kind
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: of just I don't know if word vomit is the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: way right way to describe it, but it kind of is.
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  Speaker 2: We kind of just kind of purged all of our
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: thoughts and our questions and our concerns and our initial
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: gut reactions and stuff like that, and maybe that was
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: a good place to kind of set the stage as
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: like the everyman kind of thought, like, here's a bunch
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: of different thoughts, a bunch of things we're throwing at
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: the wall that we're thinking about, that we're worried about, that,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: we're excited about that, we're concerned about. What is the
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  Speaker 2: state of the hunting culture and what does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: And how do we define it and how do we
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  Speaker 2: what are these things are going to influence it moving forward?
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  Speaker 2: And I came out of that conversation with with without
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: any clear answers, but with a lot of questions. And
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: what you I think bring to the table is a
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: level of experience. And I joked before we start recording
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: that you have this kind of elder statesman kind of
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: thing that you bring to the table. And I suppose
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: that's what I'm getting at here, is that I think
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: you might be able to help center us a little
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: bit in some of these questions that were brought up
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: last time around. So that's a very long winded way
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: of getting to what I'm trying to get to here
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: in Angel What I'm trying to get out, well, you
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: can you can you can respond if you want to
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: tell me to not call you elder again, if you
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: want to.
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  Speaker 3: Know what I was going to say, and I hope
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: this that doesn't derail what you're about to say, is
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: that what I really liked about that initial conversation was
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: it felt to me a lot like ones that I've
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: had sitting on a tailgate, where you know, it's a
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: little bit of like blue sky or maybe starry sky
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: after a hunt. Maybe it just and it's not bellyaching
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  Speaker 3: it by any means, but it's like, I think there
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: was a level of concern and a level of like worry,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: but also kind of like collective recognition that these were
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: unresolvable questions that I think is a really important way
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: into it, because I hope you're not setting me up
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: for failure, like you know, I'm the guy who's got
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: the answers to all these unanswerable questions, because I think
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: that's actually the promise of what you're trying to do.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: And the thing that I really appreciated about it is
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: a lot of these are unanswerable. They're super contextual or
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: super individual. But I applaud you for asking the question
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: as we were talking before we hit record, is like,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I think the actually the way you describe this as
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: a health check is really healthy because I think it
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't intend to be the the all knowing muse or
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: the oracle of these things. But I think it's really
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: important that we every now and then just stop and
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: like examine ourselves, like, yeah, it's a health check.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And the more I think about this set of topics,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: the more I think that the most important thing is
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: not necessarily to come to an answer on any of
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: these things. It's simply that we need to be engaged
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: in the conversation. If we can constantly be engaging and
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: discussing and assessing the health of like these different aspects
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of our culture, is this a good thing? Are we
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: on the right path? Are we sure this is what
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: we want to be? As long as we are constantly
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: as a community having those conversations, I think that's that's
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: a good end goal, versus just blindly charging down, you know,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: into the future, without thinking about what and why we're
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: doing these things. So I think that's maybe why I'm
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: hoping all this matters for whatever it's worth. So so
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: with that, I'll said, Andrew, you mentioned the health check,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: and I brought this up with Dan and Tony last time.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: What would yours be if you were to if you
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: the doctor today, and if we had to just if
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: you had to arbitrarily put a an A to F grade.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: So I guess, teacher, you're the teacher, the professor here,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: and you're going to put a stamp of grade on
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: the health of our hunting culture. What would your gut
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: reaction be, What would be that instant analysis, quick grade
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: you would give us or not us? But well, I guess,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: so what.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: Would that be?
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And then describe to me why why you feel that way?
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: You know, my my view of the world is often
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: in sort of shades of gray. I'm not very much
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: of a polar person, and so my initial reaction is
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: to answer that with a C. But I'm not going
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: to do that. It's actually a strong B. And I'll
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: justify that on a couple of reasons. One is I've
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: done so much gear testing over the years with a
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: whole like platoon of graders, and what I recognize in
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: that is that there's a human tendency to want to
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: like gravitate to the middle of everything, and when you
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: start to average middling grades, you get the most middlesome
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: grade of all. And so in some ways I'm hoping
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: like to pull the average maybe one way or the
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: other a little bit, because as you ask more people
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: of this and everybody sort of descends to the middle,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: it's not that useful. So maybe I'm gaming the system
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: just a little bit too. But I'm actually pretty optimistic
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: about a few things. Yeah, we've got some things to
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: resolve within our community, and I think some things just
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: to be aware of and to recognize, But overall, I
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: still maintain that what we do and what we promise
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: as a community is the essence of America and is
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: the essence of I think a lot of hopeful parts
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: of our wider culture. And so I think unless this
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: isn't anything like I sort of like salute at sunrise
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: every morning, like, but I think it's really an important
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: thing to recall why we do this, how we do it,
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: and the implications of what we do. It's so easy
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: for us to be sort of self critical about the
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: problems within our culture, but I think that maybe diminishes
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: the wider value of what we do, whether it's the
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: larger conservation mission that we're on, whether it's like the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: ecological benefits that are downstream of what we do. I
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: think those are all really part of our culture and
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: and it's an important part of defining and also defending
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: what we do.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. Is there any specific example
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: of something right now within our culture that you know
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: would help illustrate part of this hope that you have.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Is there something that really stands out as a shining
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: star of like, man, this is something that is a
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: that is above a B plus it's an us within
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: our hunting culture and this is why we should feel
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: this way.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe this is a you know, this might
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: be an artifact of being a resident of a rural
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: western town where I think the I think the communal
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: membranes are a lot thinner than other places. But Hunter
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Education season is about to start, and I'll tell you what,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: there is nothing that's more restorative in your sense of
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: like why we do this and like our role as
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: gatekeeper of our communities, which I think we all do
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: to various degrees. I'd actually like to come back to
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: that with like various degrees of welcomingness. Sure, but to
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: go to a hunter education class and stand in front
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: of a bunch of eleven year olds or sit in
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: the back of the room and watch a bunch of
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: eleven year olds like squirmy, fidgetingly in their chairs, but
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: so excited about like the ticket to this, you know what,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: demounts to a lifetime of opportunity that they're to get
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: into their terrified The only thing I can think about
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: is what's the minimum score I can get on the
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: test and still pass. I don't think we've in my class,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: we've ever failed a kid ever, Like it just doesn't happen.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: But they don't know that. Yeah, but that just like
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: that that palpable energy and expectation that we I think
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: as kind of calloused members of this community forget about.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: That's a I mean that that that's a strong be
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: maybe even higher, Like that's a big reason to believe.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a great it's a great point.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: One of the big.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Overarching kind of umbrellas or clouds that I think rests
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: over top of any conversation around the culture of hunting
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: is something that we spend a lot of time talking
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: about with Dan and Tony the other day, That being
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: this idea of balancing this sense of like, hey, we
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: need to self. I don't know if police is the
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: right word, but we need to self kind of regulate
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: our community and our culture versus any kind of self
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: policing or regulating is tearing us apart, right When you
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: have a culture like ours, which is so diverse and
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: so passionate, and we all kind of come to hunting
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: from a different place, with different goals, from different regions,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: different perspectives, etc. And then there's so many different aspects
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: of what might fall into the bucket considered culture. We've
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: got things like the technology and gear we use. We've
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: got things like the practices and the ways we hunt.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: We've got things like how we talk about hunting, how
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: we share our hunts, how we develop content around it.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: We've got things like what policies we support, the ideologies, etc.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: There's all these different aspects of this soup that we
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: consider the culture of hunting. With all of that being
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the case, it's it's very easy for any assessment or
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: exploration of the culture to become divisive. How do we
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: in any kind of way do that? How do we
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: in any kind of way affect the culture of hunting
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: in a positive way moving forward without it becoming a
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: you know, negative, tearing each other down kind of thing.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: How do you balance that out well?
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: Way to start with the easy questions. You know, in
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: some ways, I think you're the thesis is kind of wrong.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: I don't know that we and I don't know that
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: we have a culture, a single culture of hunting. And
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: I think that's actually one of the problems that we're
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: seeing is we've got one of my concerns with the
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: larger the way we communicate within the larger community. I
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: would call it, not just even the political community, the
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: I mean every community you name. It is that we
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: we talk to each other all the time, at the
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: at the at the risk and and and we don't
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: talk to people who either don't agree with us or
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: are not even in the room. And so the problem
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: with that, I one of the big problems I see
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: with the kind of Balkanization of hunting now is that
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: we are in smaller and smaller self described communities and
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: in each with its own culture too, right, and social
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: media does nothing but just amplify those silos. And so
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: I think, actually you mentioned public policy, which is maybe
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: the best, the best sort of arena or the best
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: venue to talk about a cultural expression of what we
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: do and air values, because that's something that transcends these
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: small little like colonies that we've developed. You know, are
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: you an upland bird hunter? Are you a side by
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: side pointing dog upland bird hunter? You know, like we
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: we have the and an amazing ability to like refine
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: ourselves into smaller and less relevant subsets all the time.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: And so I do think that's a problem, that is
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: a problem. We've got to be able to talk across
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: these divisions, these sort of self imposed divisions, But I
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: don't see us doing it very easily or very often.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: You know, I think it's one of the great values
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: of some of the groups like BHA, who are not
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: necessarily specific species specific, but even within BHA, you know,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: there's almost there's some some purity tests of sort of
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: inclusion that they are the members throw up unbeknownst to
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: the to them to themselves. But we can recognize it
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: if we're on the outside of it. Oh it's a
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: cool kids club. We don't really belong with that. So
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: that in itself, that sort of health check, if you
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: want to use to continue to use that sort of
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: barometer aspect of things, I think is a really important one.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: We got to we got to quit just judging ourselves
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: on the expectations of our little communities and judge judge
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: ourselves on these sort of ever bigger communities, which you know,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: the political community is probably the best way to judge it,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: because there's a score that's being kept every time there's
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: a vote. That's a really circular way of answering your question.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: You make an interesting point, and I agree with you.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: But what do you say to the person who challenges
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: any type of direct critique or not even critique. But
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: I guess this is what I'm getting at. If I
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: care about the culture of hunting, if I care about
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: the future of hunting, I might say, like, hey, if
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: I see someone poking holes in the boat, you should
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: say something. I should talk to this person, or we
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: should address an issue that I think is going to
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: negatively influen It's the future of hunting, right, So let's
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: just take an example. Let's say there's I don't know,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: we'll use a micro example. If I see an individual
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: that I know in real life who is doing something
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: and posting about on Facebook that I think really negative
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: shines negatively on hunting, I might think to myself, well,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's bad for the future of hunting. I
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: think that's bad for everything that's going on right now.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So I would like to talk to this person and say, hey,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: this thing you're doing and the way you're showing it
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: on there is maybe not such a good idea. So like,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: that's an individual example of a way of trying to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: address like something that I think might negatively influence the future. Now,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: if you were to scale that out and say, like, oh,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I see this thing in the larger hunting culture, I'm
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: worried about how that might impact the future of hunting.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: If I were to publicly say that, you would get
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: lots of lots of folks saying, hey, you are not
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: allowed to challenge any that anyone does something or challenge
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: this kind of thing because you are tearing down other
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: hunters or you are in some kind of way dividing hunters,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: creating divisions. We need to stand together, we need to
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: all band together because there's so many outside pressures coming
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: for hunters. And there's truth to that. I'm not saying
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: there isn't. So I guess what I'm getting is how
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: do we in any kind of way And maybe your
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: answer was this, just have the conversations, But but what
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: do you say to this basic premise which is like,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you can't critique, criticize, or at least raise questions about
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: certain things within the hunting world because that's you know,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: damaging us from the inside or creating false divisions when
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: sometimes there are things maybe we need to be talking
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: about inside, Like yeah, I'm gonna stop rambling. I'll let
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: you address that.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Good now, I'm happy you sharpened that a little bit,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: because I think I think there are some huge problems
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: that we are not addressing because it's this sort of
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: u purity test is actually not a bad way to
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: look at it. There's a purity test of inclusion in
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: our community.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: That is.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I'll use two like hyper relevant and frightening examples. One
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: is trapping. What I see in the trapping community, and
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I am a not a life on trapper. I trapped
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: as a kid. I still trap here. I can take
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: or leave trapping kind of as I have time for it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: It's not the sort of thing like that this is
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: like central to my identity, but I definitely get it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: I do it. What I see with trapping is it
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: the conversation is being led by the most strident members
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: of the trapping community. I don't think that's the right
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: messager for the message, because what it does is that
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: we've already entered a world that is really problematic for
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of people when it comes to trapping, for
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: you name it, because of the consumption aspect of it,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: because of the quazi commercial ass of it, because of
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: lots of reasons. I don't agree with the statement that
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: you've got to toe the line on raising the flag
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: for trapping because as trapping goes, soda goes everything else.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: That may well be the case, but I think the
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: people who should carry that message are actually the people
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: who are less eager to talk about it because they
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: have a level of authenticity and sort of personal resonance
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: about the issue that's not it's not political, and it's
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: not they're not trying to change anybody's mind. The second
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: issue I think we need to talk all about a
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: lot more in our community as guns is the social
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: the powerful sort of toxic presence of guns in our
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: society at large, and how that affects hunting. Like right,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: the party line is you can't say one negative thing
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: about guns because if you know, if the anti is
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: get one foothold into this.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Wall, yeah, you've got a whole want.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: Right, exactly. And I am a great believer in guns
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: and gun rights and all that stuff, but I think
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: it's we we shouldn't not talk about it. I don't
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: right agree, Probably very very few opinions are going to
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: change within our world. But the very fact that we
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: are open to talking about it, I think shows to
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: people who are on the other side that this isn't
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: a monoculture. This isn't just a whole bunch of people
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: who have closed their ranks around something that they're afraid
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: to talk about. I think we should welcome that kind
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: of and and part of that welcoming is we need
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: to welcome dissent. We don't have to agree with it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: We can call it out when we see it, but
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't censor it. And I think there's a lot
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: of self censorship within our community.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so, so okay, I really like where you're
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: going with Andrew. For anyone, I guess, what are your
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: thoughts or what have you learned over the years about
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: having productive conversations along these types of lines. How can
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: we as people within this community more productively discuss or
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: debate or consider the things that we do as hunters,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: the ways that we do things as hunters, that the
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: choices that we are making when it comes to all
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: these different aspects that you could throw into the bucket
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: called the culture of hunting, how do we do that
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: in a better way as opposed to the way that
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I see happening on social media a lot, or you
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: know that we imagine people throwing knives at each other metaphorically.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Imagine is a good word, because I think what we
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: do when we call out something that we don't like
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: on social media or in the public arena is all
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: we've done is declaring our own position on it. It's
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: not a constructive way to change anybody else's mind because
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: right all of a sudden, you've seen how this works.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: You've got a dogfight where people are eager to participate
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: and align themselves with one side the other. But there's
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: no in no way, shape or form, is that advancing
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: the discussion at all? Is just flag flying. And so
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: I think the worst thing to do is actually is
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: to critique or call out somebody in a public forum.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: I think the way to do it is to call
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: them or email them or I don't, but to do
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: it on a personal basis. I think that does a
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: couple of very meaningful things.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: One.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I think it's a lot more resonant to somebody who
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: is on the receiving end of that to say, you know,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: holy crap, I didn't. I wasn't not aware of that
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: line that I crossed. But because of this person whose
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: opinion I respect and who's articulated that in a good way,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I might not change my mind, but I'm aware that
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: I have like crossed the line. The alternative to that
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: is you just dig in. I mean, that's all, you know.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: I love social media for so many windows into the world,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: but it is not a medium for any kind of
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: discourse and it shouldn't be looked at that way at all.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately a lot of folks turned to it in
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: that capacity. But but I agree. How about we take
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: a how would we look at this through the lens
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: of a specific example, another specific example, and that being
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: technology in hunting. I think that is one of these issues,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: not issues, but a category within this world of our
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: culture that has forever probably caused some level of consternation
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: throughout the hunting community every decade in some different form
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: or fashion, And it seems like that's even more so
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the case now and likely will continue to be as
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: technology within our world continues to accelerate. I thought you
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: wrote a terrific piece about the use of thermal technology
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: recently over at the over an Outdoor Life, where you
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: explored this very thing. You talked about the the ramp
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: an increase in the use of thermal technology, where things
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: are headed, what that might mean for us, A variety
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: of different people's perspectives on it, And I thought you
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: did a very good job of kind of tackling something
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: like this without stamping your flag on the ground and
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: screaming like my way or the highway. But you also
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: wrote rose some I thought important questions that I certainly
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that certainly resonated with me that I'll set when it
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: comes to something like the use of thermal technology and
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: how that might impact what hunting is in the future.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: What's what is your take on it? If you could
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: share it for folks that didn't read the article. What
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: are you what are your thoughts on this technology? What
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: are your thoughts on what that means for the future?
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: And is there anything we need to be doing or
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: thinking about or or wrestling with as a community if
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: this is where things are headed?
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh man, how much time do we have and
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: probably a Thermals are such a fascinating category for me
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: for a couple of reasons. One is I backed into
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: learning about thermals as an extension of my work with
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: optics because they are they're you know, right there, they're adjacent.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: They're a way of interacting with the world through a
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: visual medium. And at first they were in my experience
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: with them, they were they were a little bit like toys,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: you know, they were kind of they were a little
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: irrelevant because they were limited by their own lack of sophistication,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: you know, these smudgy sort of blobs that were, you know,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: vague suggestions of a distant animal. So at first was
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: pretty easy to dismiss them a little bit as like irrelevant.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: That has changed in the last couple of years, and
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing you've experienced something similar, which is there is
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: a demographic in our world right now? Who about so
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: my kids are my twin is there twenty three their buddies? Actually,
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: after I wrote that piece, I must have gotten six
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: or seven messages from them saying, hey, can you hook
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: me up with thermals? Like the reason I mentioned that is,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I think if if you are and I don't even
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: I want to scribe, you know, sort of familiarity with it,
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: but it really is, at least in my experience, a
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: younger demographic who is very interested in in viewing the
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: world and maybe participating in seasons and opportunities that are
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: have really been off limit. I'm talking kind of night
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: time hunting. If you kind of think about you know,
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: I hope we get into this too, Like we have
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: made our world so small in terms of exploiting available
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: opportunity as hunters. Right the minute there's a season that
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: we can like overloit, we are We're tending to do this,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: whether it's a an access opportunity right now, we're very
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: like as a community, I feel like we are. Yeah,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: we're kind of an exploiting mode again, kind of selfishly
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: like we want to We kind of see that there's
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: competition and we've got the means and the abilities to
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: sort of win that competition or at least we're going to
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: give it a damn good try. So anyway, if you
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: think about like the crowding issue, the one sort of
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: place that we don't have crowding is it night that's
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: kind of the new frontier of opportunity. And I think
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of these kids are sort of seeing that,
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: like man public land and in terms of the deer
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: season and bird season is not that much fun. There's
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: a lot of people out there. But if I get
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: this magic tube and I put it on my gun,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: I can go hunt coyotes at night. I got the
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: place to myself. And I think that's I think that's
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: really important thing to recognize is it's a little bit
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: of a vacuum that's being filled with this. The second
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: thing is technology being what it is and doing what
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: it does. It is getting way more sophisticated, way faster,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: as prices are coming down, as technology, as like the
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: digital technology is getting better, and as like employing it
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: within these sort of mobile devices is getting better. I
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: mention that because it's no longer these sort of vague
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: blobs out there, Like, you know, some of the best
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: thermals that I tested this year have got high definition
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: sensors paired with high definition screens. It's unbelievable the viewing
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: capability of these things. You pair that with you know,
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: real time video and image recording and the ability to
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: share that out, and now you've got like a pretty
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: disruptive technology that's out there, And what my piece was
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: talking about a little bit is like, hey, buckle up,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: because I don't think we I think we're just in
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: the dawn of seeing the leading edge of this sophistication
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: of this category. We actually have an analog in the
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: fishing world with this forward facing sonar that has really disrupted,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: especially the tournament fishing. These are expensive units and so
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: it's not everybody who can afford it. But what I'm
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: seeing in that world a whileye on bass fishermen, but
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: also you know, saltwater tournament fishermen who got a lot
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: of money on the line, is there's a real have
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: and have not division that's being starkly kind of separated
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: right now, where if you've got this technology, you're competing
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: on an entirely different level than people who don't. What
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: worries me a little bit when I extrapolate that experience
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: on hunting is we already have these crowding issues I
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: alluded to. We already have sort of this competition that
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: is kind of breaking my heart when it's coming to
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: its influence on hunting. And now you've got this technology
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: that really does allow you to have an edge, a
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: competitive edge on somebody else. If you don't have it,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: you are going to be sort of relegated to using
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: your traditional field skills. Now how boring is that?
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: And so I just thought it was instead of like,
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: and again, I didn't think it was my place to
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: say this is right or wrong and apply that kind
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: of value judgment to the category. I felt like it
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: was my role in my job and this may define
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: kind of my role in the community is to like
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: raise awareness. And maybe that's kind of a limpristed, sort
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: of half past way of interacting with the community. But
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: I think there'll always been members of communities who have
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: done that, and I guess I look at that in
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: my role. Sometimes I have strong feelings about it, but
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: I think if I voiced them in the context of
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: that piece, all of a sudden, what I'm trying to
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: do is marginalized because oh, McKean's all for thermals or
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: McKean is all against thermals. But instead, what I hope
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: it does is is just a thought starter. It's like, hey,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: let's think about how this is going to be used.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: And actually, just today I had a meeting of the
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Boone and Crockett Club's ethics committee where we talked about this.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: It's like, is it important for the club to impose
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: it sort of you know, influence on the public policy
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: of this, should these be regulated or is it enough
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: to say, actually, the fair chase doctrine of the club
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: already kind of talks about this. So anyway, that was
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: a great example I think of a really disruptive and
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: potentially divisive category of technology that if we're not thinking
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: about it, we should be.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: So you had to be a little bit understated with
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: your own perspective in that article, but you don't need
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: to be understated with it on this podcast. If you
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: were to have your druthers, or if you were to
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: have some level of influence, or if you could in
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: some kind of way guide us towards how to deal
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: with something like this, this kind of disruptive technology that
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: could dramatically change what the future of how we engage
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: with wildlife is. I mean, there are many risks tied
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: to it, not just in you know, what hunting is,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: but also if this kind of technology continues, will it
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: just lead to reduced opportunity for hunters because they have
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to shut down seasons or change things, et cetera. Like
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of downstream effects from this kind of technology.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: What do we how do we address that? I mean,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: I agree that increasing awareness about getting the conversation going,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: that's in a very important first step and I think
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: that's what we're doing here today too. But also like
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: now what, Yeah, that's.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: A great question. So I don't think that the category
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: should be banned. I think it should be limited. I
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: think it should be we should have a better idea
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: of those downstream effects. But I think in terms of
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: a technology, a rising technology, none of us should be
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: surprised by this. One of the things that I've noticed
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: just in terms of if you look at it, like
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: I mentioned, I presented it as an adjacency to optics.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: The integration of electronics and optics has been a trend
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: that we've really seen sharpening over the last four or
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: five years, maybe a little bit longer. But in terms
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: of like really getting is capable technology. So I think
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: the fact that we're seeing like a digital rendering of
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: our world through these devices shouldn't scarce them much. We've
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: been seeing that in all kinds of other ways. I
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: think where we should be concerned about it, though, is
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: do we have an ability through the thermal part of that,
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: or maybe it's night vision, or maybe it's I don't know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: plasma of recognition stuff that we haven't even seen come
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: down the line yet. Maybe it's, you know, a DNA identifier.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Should we be worried about that affecting I would say
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: what I would describe as sort of the democracy of
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: the experience of hunting, and I would say, oh, heavens, yes,
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: that's it's at that level. I think that we should
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: be involved either regulating it, either highly regulating it, or
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: creating a set of expectations where it can be used.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: I actually don't mind the Boone and Crockett Club's way
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: of looking at it, almost like on a private sector thing,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: like we're not going to tell you can't use it.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: We are going to tell you that if you want
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: to enter this animal and our record book, you can't
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: use it. And I think that's maybe a soft boiled
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: way to get into it. That's not a bad way
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: to sort of test out some of these things. Let
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: me give you another example of the downstream effect that
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: you're talking about, and that's crossbows. I think there's a
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: real sort of analog to the admin of crossbows and
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: then the corporation of them in archery seasons. And you know,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: one of the things that has been shown in Ohio,
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: which was an early adopter of crossbows, is yes, it
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: increased participation. That's a good thing, but it also started to,
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: you know, to change the composition of the mature buck harvest.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: More big bucks were being killed with crossbows than traditional bows.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that's good or bad, but we should
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: be aware of that. That should be a measurable thing
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: and we should have mechanisms in place to address it.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: You know, whether it's shortening seasons, limiting opportunities having their
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: own season with restrictions. I don't quite know what that,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: like prescription is, but those are all things I don't
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: think we know at this point. How are thermalst being used.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: You know, it's easy to say, oh, it's the tool
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: of poachers. I don't actually believe that personally. I think
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: if somebody's going to poach, they're gonna poach no matter what.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: But is it helping hunters select for a different kind
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: of animal or for a different experience, or is it
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: allowing hunters to detect animals in places they wouldn't ordinarily
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: have gone. I'll be honest with one of the things
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I would love to measure, because this is just rank
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: speculation at this point, is I firmly believe that nighttime
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: is an important reset time for wild animals, like there's
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: there's we owe them the mercy of like not messing
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: with them at night if we want them to stay
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: in the countryside, and I think we do. I worry
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: that if we start pounding animals at night, and not
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: just shooting coyotes or non game species, but our presence
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: in secure habitat that is nighttime for the animals that
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: maybe we want to hunt regulated game animals, We're going
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: to change their behavior and their distribution. That is not
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's a good thing, but we ought
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: to be aware of that before we start to say,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: here's what we need to do with this technology.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: So there are so many other examples of technology like
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: this that are impacting hunting in one way or another,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: and we'll continue to do so. Right, we could talk
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: about long range rifles, we could talk about sell cameras
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: and live streaming cameras. Now, we could talk about who
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: knows what the GPS mapping technology and all that, right,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: there's all these different forms of technology change over the
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: recent years that are really changing the activity the pursuit,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: impacting success levels, possibly impacting you know, population levels at
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: some point, like you mentioned, like we've seen examples of
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: that in the past. In that article you wrote, our
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: mutual friend Joe was quoted kind of saying like when
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: it came to the forward facing sonar, like you can't
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: put the genie back in the bottle, Like these technologies
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: are coming or they're here, and you can't slow that
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: locomotive down. Right, So there's one perspective on all this
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: that says, like, you know, it's a lost cause bemoaning
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: any of this, because like technology will do what technology
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: will do, and capitalism and the market is going to
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: determine where things are headed and you can either hop
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: on board or you can put your head in the sand. So,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: just as a kind of a final bow on this
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: whole technology thing, like like technology is such a huge
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: influencer on what hunting is and what our culture is,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: and it is going to continue to be the case
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: moving forward. And if it seems like this is something
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: that's going to continue to change what this thing is,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: how do we or what levers of influence do we
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: have honestly, other than like, let's talk about it, like
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: we can. We can talk about these things. We can
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: worry ourselves about these things. But if this stuff is
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: concerning in kind of way, what can the average person do?
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: If we think that is the case?
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think we I actually disagree with Joe. This
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: is Joe Cermelli that Mark was just talking about. Who
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: was talking about the sort of inexorable advance of technology
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: when it came to phishing, and that we need to
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: just embrace it and accept it. I actually don't believe that.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: I actually I think we have an obligation to not
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: only our community that you've mentioned before, but also people
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: we've never met yet, people future members of our community,
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: to retain the sense of self restraint and sort of
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: this is a really weird word, but it's what popped
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: into my mind, sort of decorum when it comes to hunting.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if it was Tony who
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: was talking about the idea of restraint, and like the reward,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: the intrinsic rewards you get by limiting your ability are
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: so much higher than sort of the external rewards of
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: the trophy that you're actually after. And I think I
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: think that's a super important perspective to share in the
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: context of this, But I think we owe it to
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: our community to it's called bullshit when it happens, and this,
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: I think is bullshit in a lot of ways. We
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: actually have an example. Do you remember, this is the
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Elder Statesman in me coming out. Do you remember, Sonny
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: a thing called Tracking Point. This would have been you
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: were just coming on the scene. This probably would have
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: been ten or twelve years ago. And what it was
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: was a rifle scope software combination that a lot with
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: a laser range finder that basically allowed you to aim
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: a gun with your like tablet and it and you know,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: it was a coordinated sort of set of all of
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: this gear and it was inherited from the military. But
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: it also it was so disruptive for that, I would
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: say that time, but for any time that our community
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: said no, that's a bridge too far and that there's
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: no place for that, and somewhat that that opposition was
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: somewhat couched in the sense of like critics immediately went
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: to like remote hunting, like this could be something that
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: you could use in the hunter wouldn't even have to
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: be on the landscape. Right when we think about the
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: advance of technology, that's not that far fetched. Our ability
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: with remote cameras and remote sensing stuff like that's probably
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: in the near term, like to popularize that kind of technology.
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: What would we say, as a community, do you actually
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: have to be present to take the animal? I would say,
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: that's a pretty damn bright line. And that's what that
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: tracking point sort of example sort of revealed. And the
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: community came actually pretty unified and said no. And so
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: I'm not scared of kind of the result. What I'm
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: scared about in all this is not having the conversation.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so let's let's pivot a little bit to
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: another one of these categories of I guess whatever this
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: giant cauldron that we're going to consider the related to
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: the culture of hunting, and that would be another thing
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: that we talked about last time, which is the rising.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is not a new thing at all now,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: but when you look at that actual let's let's pivot
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: to something you wrote about relatively recently, which was the
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: survey that came out I think earlier in the year
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: that showed for the first time in a while a
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: decline in public approval for hunting. We've seen in these
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: surveys in the past that largely there is support for hunting,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: but trophy hunting not so much. That's always been one
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: of those things that the non hunting public is not
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: on board with. That continues to become more and more
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: the case, and now we're seeing even just the general
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: idea of hunting is losing support within the within the
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: larger world. Zoom back into what the culture of hunting
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: in these days, and in many ways you might say
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: that the culture of hunting is increasingly becoming more one
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: of trophy hunting, the glamorization, the idolization of big trophy everything.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: It's hard to avoid it. I am as guilty of
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: it as anyone. I love a big buck as much
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: as the next guy a girl. But we spent a
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: lot of time talking about this last time, and we
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: all know that there are risks and downsides and concerns
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: when we reduce this pursuit in lifestyle and activity and
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: thing that we do. When it's reduced to simply that thing,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: the antlers or the animal, the trophy, the size, the whatever.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: What's your take on where things stand when it comes
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: to trophy hunting today and is that something you're concerned
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: about at all? Is it overblown? Is it something that's
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: just fine as it stands? Or if not, whoa where
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: do we need to take things?
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: This answer might surprise you. I actually am not as
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: worried about it now as I was maybe five years ago.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: And I was not as worried about it five years
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: ago as I was ten years ago. So I don't
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: think this is actually anything new. In fact, I think
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: I'm still worried about it. Don't get me wrong. I
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: think this is an essential part of our conversation and
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: we need need to talk about it. But in terms
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: of it like singularly defining our community, either internally or externally,
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: I'm not as worried about it. And if I follow
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: sort of that continuum along, I think we're getting better
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: at describing a trophy that's not just a visual representation
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: of an animal and our visual representation of us with
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: that animal. You know, maybe it's a little Pollyanna ish.
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: I still see it. I still like it's still I
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: still love to see big Bucks. I still have to
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: see big antlers still. And as you know, that content
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: resonates like it does better. And so from all of
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: sort of the external metrics of reward, like we should
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: do more of it because like Havelov's dog, it gets
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: u you know, it's a feedback loop. But I do
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: think there's that we're becoming better at redefining a trophy
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: that's not just inches of antler. It's a trophy experience.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: It's a trophy day in the field. And I know
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: those are all like soft boiled things, and they then
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: they don't do as well, they take a little bit
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: more time. I do think it's one place in our
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: community where we can collectively clock our tongues at people
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: who are such over egoists when it comes to a trophy,
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: to say this is this is hurting everybody and have
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: and and I think that's a great discussion to have,
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: you know, like hopefully if you're sort of the offender
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: of it, you defend yourself and say, well, you missed
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: the point. Well, because social media often misses the point.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: So we need to do a better job of like
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: putting that nuance in thing. What was the point if
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: it wasn't just that. I do think the idea of
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: pronouns in our world, the I and the and the
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: me part is a huge part of what's gotten us
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: in trouble with the lar larger world. If you look
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: at that survey, going back to that, there's there's problems
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: with trophy hunting, as there's always been in there deepening,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: but there's also problems with people who responded to that survey,
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: with hunting that seems to be individual, individually rewarding. In
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: other words, a hunter who says I only hunt to
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: feed my family. The survey for the first time actually
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: took a dim view of that, or a dimmer view
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: than that. When hunters talked about like the larger public
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: value of hunting, I hunt because you know, it prevents
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: wildlife damage from my neighbor or for wildlife management reasons,
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: those actually had relatively high approval ratings. So I think
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: that sort of like that. Yeah, the I and the
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: me part of hunting is a is something that we
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: really need to be watching, whether it's a trophy animal
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: that expresses that, or if it's something that says that,
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: you know, this is so to me that you'd never
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: understand it. You're doing a very bad job of communicating
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: why that's socially important.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So is there anything and you guys have done
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: a great job outdoor life and field and stream has
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: done a good job of this, and we try to
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: do it a mediator, that being showcasing by example, ways
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: to talk about these things, ways to illustrate these things,
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: ways to demonstrate hunting is more than just killing a trophy. Right,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: But is there anything that you have learned more recently
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: or kind of fine tuned your thoughts around how we
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: can do these things that you're talking about, how we
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: can showcase, whether it be on social media or when
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: talking to our non hunting friends, just to make sure
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: that we are accurately portraying what hunting is in a
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: way that is positively resonant with the outside world. That's
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: more and more important.
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: So I think part of the problem with it is
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: like the immediacy of social media, Right, we cannot wait
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: to post this experience that we're still like trembling over.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: And I think the immediacy of social media is actually
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: part of the problem with it. Like I'll use an example,
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: and this is definitely still like a it's a study
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: in progress. I shot the best white tail with my
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: bow that I've ever shot this past fall. I haven't
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: posted one thing about it I was so, I mean
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: it was like, so I hunt just from the ground,
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: like it's part of it's like my ADHD. Part of
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: it is like my fear of heights. Part of it.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: goes into it. But I am wildly unsuccessful hunting white
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: tails from the ground. But I know that going into
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: it too. Like also I coach in the fall, so
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: like my time like in the field is a little
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: bit limited, and like all that is like by way
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: of context. So like when I go hunting, I have
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: the expectation it's going to fail miserably, but I still
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: like try to like put the odds in my favor
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: and work the wind and try to go out. Like
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: I skipped cross country on this particular day, skip cross
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: country practice because the wind was out of the southeast,
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: which it never is, which meant I could approach this
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: field from a different way. I used to think I
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: was super invincible because for probably it was. I usually
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: hunt just doze from the ground because I've all already
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: given up on kind of the buck segment of the populash.
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: No it's talking, but for probably five or six six
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: straight successful kills. The deer did not jump my strength
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: and I was like, well, I've got this figured out.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: And the.
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: Next six like you know, things didn't go very well.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: What I'm getting at though, is like this time it
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: all worked out, and like if there was ever, like
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: ever an achievement to crow about from the top of
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: the tallest cotton would this was it. It was really funny,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Like I part of it's my age, and part of
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: it is the context. Like I need, I need to
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: think about this. I cannot wait to tell this story.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: It worked out like unbelievably well, and most of it
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: was my great abilities, but some of them was just
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: rank luck. But to me, what I hope that what
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to say is the quick hit that I
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: would have gotten from like celebrating that success immediately. I
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: feel yet to be proven that it's actually a much
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: richer and deeper experience when I finally tell this story
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: and all of the context around it, that to me
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: makes it a story worth telling.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I bet there is.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Something similar true for folks that even aren't creating content
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: to the degree that you are right, I'm guilty of
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: the quick hit. Like I'm so excited to share with
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: the world what's going on too. But I have found,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: like in a smaller scale, when I've held back a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: few days and just enjoyed it for myself before I
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: let the world in on it, and then all the
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: corresponding noise that comes with that that I'll sometimes let
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: myself be affected by, I'm always happier just to enjoy
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: it myself. Like the outside noise is never actually a
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: good thing, even though our like dopamine craving inner lizard
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: wants you to do that. And so I think you
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: bring up a really really good point, and we would
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: probably all be a lot healthier and happier if we
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: could resist that urge more often.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: So I again, this is you've You've done something, probably
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: really dangerous. So I'm kind of just thinking as the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: thoughts or saying as the thoughts come to me. But
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: I think one of the things, I again, this is
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: going to be a little trial balloon. If we have
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: to delete the entire thing, that's great. But I think
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: the problem I have with social media is actually it's
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: a supercharger of this idea that we have as a community.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Wait till you hear the word too, you're going to
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: be like, yeah, this word actually came up in the
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: context of state agencies when they were like looking ahead
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: to the future of like are we losing hunters? Are
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: we going to have less engagement of hunters? And the
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: word that they use was relevance. And I think social
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: media is like, this is this supercharger of relevance, and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: we feel more relevant in the moment when we post.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: So that's that quick hit you're talking about, Like that
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: that dopamine, that like that feedback loop. That's like a
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: self congratulatory or it like it it confirms our relevance
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: in the world. And I think that idea of relevance
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: is super super dangerous because I think what it does
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: is it's given us a ready excuse to say, well,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: like we just talked about reach and engagement and audience
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: size and like all of the things that in our
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: digital world are proxies for relevance are pretty easy to
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: gain in a lot of ways. I just don't I
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: think they're I think they're really perishable. Yeah, And I
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: think sort of the larger sort of like idea of
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: relevance and longer term relevance is something that that is
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: not that's earned. I guess I'll just say that.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Adjacent to this side of the equation and but very
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: very related to this whole social media influence over our culture.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: We have the specter of anti hunters and all sorts
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: of things in the you know, for many, many years,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: but in the last years so there's been a lot
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: around predators. Right There's there's a lot of buzz these
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: days about ballot box biology and the initiative in Colorado
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: right now, and things have happened in Washington and elsewhere where.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: There are folks coming at predator hunting or trapping, as
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, real threats to opportunities for hunters. At
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: the same time, there has forever but continuing now, been
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: plenty of anti predator vitriol coming from within our community.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: So you've got you've got worries about anti hunters trying
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: to take away opportunities to hunt for predators or to trap.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: And then you've got hunters within our community who seem
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: to hate predators sometimes too. I just had a friend
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: send me a picture that is not too terribly unique,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: sent me a picture of this post on Facebook of
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: eight guys in Michigan up in the up. As I
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: understand it with white hoods over their heads while holding
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: a dead wolf and rifles pointed at it. And that
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: was shared on Facebook relatively recently. So there's this kind
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: of imagery out there, right. We all seen the shoot
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: shovel and shut up stickers, and you hear about everyone
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: smoke a packa day. You're in Montana, you see it
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: all the time. I'm sure there's a tremendous amount of
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's called oedan like hate sometimes around
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: carnivores within our community too. So you've got these these
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: two different things kind of going on where we've got
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: folks worried about taking away the opportunity to manage predators.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: You also have this we hate predators kind of thing
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: within the community, and it creates this feedback loop of
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: sorts where I find it's becoming self defeating within our community.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: This is I'm guilty of this, Andrew, where I start
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: talking and I ramble on about a thing without getting
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: too a question, but I'm getting I'm going somewhere with this.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: All of this has me worried about our culture within
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: hunting when it comes to both the our ability to
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: manage predators in the productive way. Also all of this
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: stuff impacting the pr of hunting and the image of
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: hunting and stuff. So we've got is like very real
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: concerns about non hunters influencing a hunting opportunities. But then
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: we also have groups within our hunting community who are
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: presenting ourselves, I believe, so poorly in showcasing what looks
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: like we cannot be trusted to responsibly manage predators because
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: we just want to wipe them out. What's your take
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: on this? How do we approach the whole predator conundrum
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: as a hunting community and culture. When it seems like
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: they are they're are a suite of species that deserve
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: to be in the landscape and are a part of
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: the natural world and operate important functions within an ecosystem.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: We should be able to manage them and have them
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: be a part of the hunting way of things. But
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: it seems like there's no easy middle ground that everyone
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: can agree on. It seems like you hate them or
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: you love them, you're a crazy liberal or a hard
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: line far writer who wants them all gone. It's just
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: this incredibly polarizing topic, and I think it's one of
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: these things that's going to have an outsized impact on
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: the future of hunting anything. I'm going to stop talking
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: and just lets you address any one of the many
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: things I just threw in the air there.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: If you're guilty of rambling without asking a question, I
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: am guilty of rambling without answering the question. Boy, you
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: nailed it. In fact, I think predators are such an
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: interesting category because they do they have the outsize influence
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: on both sides of the equation for sure. I'm going
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: to use just one tiny, like very personal example to
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: what that I hope is kind of illustrative, and that is,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: in my county, we have a government trapper who, like
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: a lot of Western counties, he's hired by USDA's Animals
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Services or Wildlife Services, and I think last year he
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: shot like twenty five hundred coyotes, mostly from the air.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: And I don't think I've seen more coyotes than I
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: have seen this winter. The main point being, like our
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: sort of cultural fixation, and certainly within our communities you've
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: described it of like predators are bad, predators are actually
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: taking opportunity away from us has been like baked into
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: so much of our mindset. I honestly do not believe
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: it In fact, in my personal experience, what I have
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: noticed is, you know, the better habitat you've got, the
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: better prey base you've got, the better more predators you're
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: going to have. And I think I think that's something
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: that we need to start to just recognize it when
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: we see it. Is we've got great hunting. We also
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: have a lot of raccoons around, you know. Yeah, I
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: would say there's a obviously there's a tipping point, and
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: I think we're seeing it with you know, quail and
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: some upland bird species for sure. But my main point being,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: I think we have allowed ourselves a blind spot when
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: it comes to predators, whether you to you know, the
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: cultural part of predators or whatever, But I firmly believe
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: that predators make our world a richer place. Like they're
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: just it's a more interesting place. I mean, I live
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: and hunt in a in places with grizzly bears, you know,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: and grizzly bears are working into the sort of my
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: homeland of the Missouri River breaks. I fully expect it's
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: going to change the way I l hunt within my
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: probably near near term. It's going to save my lifetime,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: but it's going to be way quicker than what you know.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: I hope my lifetime extends to I used to say
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: ten years now like they're they are in the breaks.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: They're in the APR now, huh.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm concerned about how it's going to affect things,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: but I can't In some ways, I can't wait because
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: I think it's going to make for a much different, yeah,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: but richer experience of dealing with them.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: I think if we I think this is actually one
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: of the elements where we have the ability as a
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: hunting community to make positive in roads with the non
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: hunting community by saying, actually, we are at we want
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: the same things here. It may be a question degrees
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: and sort of numeric tolerance, like I don't want I
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: want to see grizzly bears managed. I want to see
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: wolves managed. I think the greatest gift we can give
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: to a wildlife species is actually managing them through hunting
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: to welcome their place on the landscape and actually build
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: advocates for their presence there. And I think that message
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: is one that if we can actually have a conversation,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: then take the shrillness out of it. I think there's
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of shared values with people who want to
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: see many more predators, but also recognized and when they
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: really are introspective about it, they recognize human presence in
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: these places is not going to allow for unmanaged predators
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: numbers that there's going to have to be management, and
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: that's where we meet in the middle and figure it out.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: So the larger issue, though not larger issue, but the
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: parallel issue to this tolerance of predators on the landscape
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: by hunters as you're discussing and management of them. The
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: flip of that is what we're seeing in places where
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: there is the ability to manage these critters. Now there's
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: this risk that we might be losing that opportunity in
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: places like Colorado. I know you've been following, You've seen
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: what's been going on there, You've seen what's going on
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: in other states. How do you see us as a
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: hunting community best addressing those kinds of things moving forward?
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Because this isn't going to be the end of it.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: This is going to be something will continue to have
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: to address for many years. I'm sure I personally believe
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: that Step one is doing what you just said. When
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: it comes to predators, we need to demonstrate to the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: non hunting public that we can be a part of
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: the solution that managing predators. Hunting predators is not a
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: death sentence to them as a population. It is a
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: boon to them, actually, because if hunters are advocates for
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: these species, it leads to better things for the species
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: long term. Right. We've seen that with so many other animals.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: Why couldn't that be true for wolves or grizzly bears,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: et cetera. And when we have these things like the
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: Facebook picture I told you about, I think that's the
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: kind of thing that leads to ballad initiatives getting support.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: So all that said, what else can we be thinking
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: about or doing differently or talking about differently to ensure
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: that we don't have more of these Colorado ballad initiatives
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: down the road, or that we can defeat them when
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: they do pop up when they do.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: I actually comment on the Colorado issue that I think
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: has been I haven't heard it articulated, and it's you know,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: it's an itchy thing to say, but I think it's
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: influencing this discussion. And that is we as a hunting
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: community have allowed mountain lion hunting as a specific, very
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: narrow subset to be dominated by a very specially specialized
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: and special interest group of often commercial outfitters. Yeah, there's
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: tons of guys who are running dogs who are not outfitters,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: but a it's a pretty specialized thing. The reason I
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: mention it is I think the mountain lion hunting community
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: in Colorado, but anywhere else that it's done, and it's
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: done appropriately and managed, and I'm a big fan of it.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: But the takeaway is it's a guy who usually a
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 3: guy who just showed up to shoot a mountain lion
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: out of a tree. There is very little experience that
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: they've had with the resource with the experience, and I
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: think that's the client. I think that's an achilles heel
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: of this whole argument, and it's an easy one for
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: the antis to exploit. So I think we need to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: do a better job of marginalizing that part, maybe sort
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: of like I wouldn't say canceling it by any means,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: but making it less visible and amplifying the part of
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: that of these amazing dogs that are doing remarkable athletic
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: and instinctive things that they are not unlike your dog
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: at home that also has these tendencies that we have
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: sort of bred out of them. But here's a dog
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: that's living its best life and managing a public resource
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: that without management would be problematic. I think we could
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: bring in all of the secondary things of it, But
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: what I really worry about is we've given ammunition to
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: the anti is to say, I mean, look at this.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: This is just you're commercializing a resource and exploiting a
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: resource for people who you know, have no business being
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: in the woods. I believe everybody has a business being
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: in the woods. But the filter that we have allowed
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: to be sort of like draped over this, I don't
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: think is healthy for continuation of that activity.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's you mentioned something that the word ammunition, like
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: giving ammunition to the and to hunting world is something
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: that so much of this discussion on culture is actually
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: related to right. So much of the future of hunting,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: whether we want to admit it or not, is dependent
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: on whether or not we continue to be accepted by
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: the general public. Right, this is a privilege that we
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: have to hunt. I know we like to think it's
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: a right, but it's not a right. It's a privilege currently,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: and that means that we need to conduct ourselves in
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: such a way that we continue to earn that privilege
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: and demonstrate our role here in America to be able
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: to hunt, and that can easily disappear with bad apples
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: continuing to be the only thing sometimes that these folks see.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: So we need to be very, very careful. And I
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: think that's why there's this need to have conversations on
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: these types of topics where we are willing as a
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: community to gather around and like I had this analogy
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: last time with Dan and Tony. You know, I would
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: much rather deal with our dirty laundry as a family
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: around the table versus like this being out in the
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: public square. Like, let's all get around the table. It's Thanksgiving,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: let's hash it out together. And yeah, we're going to
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: disagree in some things, and we're gonna approach things from
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: different perspectives, and yeah, you might throw some turkey at
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: me one time, but like, let's let's handle it as
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: a family, though not as enemies, not as two different
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: political parties. No, like, we're going to figure this out
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: together and make sure that this family can continue to
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: function as a family moving forward and keep this thing together.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean though it's gonna be kumbaya every second, right,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: But I much rather do that than have some outside
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: arbitr arbiter coming in and making decisions for us. I
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: guess is what I'm getting at, and and I hope
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: that this all leads to something positive like that down
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: the road.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: Is this a setup for an intervention?
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: Is there something you want to tell me?
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: No? No, But but it is a setup, Andrew for
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: you to escape this because I know you've got a
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: hard stop coming up relatively soon, and I want to
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: be respectful that No.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: I appreciate that, but I can't let this go without like,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: I think that's I I could not agree with you more.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's one of the things that
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: we've like recognized in each other. The critique I would
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: have of that, though, is in that example, like we
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: want to have a more sustainable I can't remember the
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: words you use, but you know, a productive family. I
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: think that implies that we share a common view of
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: what our goal is, like what we should be trying
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: to aspire to. I think the problem that we're in
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: right now, and the reason that this discussion so vital
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: is I don't think we have that. I don't think
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 3: we know exactly what we're aspiring to is it sustainability,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: is it continuing these traditions to the next generation? Like
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: what actually is it? Is it opportunity for all? And
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: I think we kind of founder when it comes to that, right,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: and that's that's well, I want the opportunity to hunt
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: trophy bucks, you know, and however I can manage them,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: and that should be my sort of right, you know,
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: or opportunity or ability. I guess now I'm kind of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: tripping all over my tongue. But I do think that's
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: a problem that we don't have a singular view of
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: what we're aspiring to. And I would just say one
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: more thing. One of the things in just human history
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: that has brought people together is a shared enemy and
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: this conflict and is shared purpose around a conflict. And
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: I think we have plenty of shared enemies, but I
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: don't think we recognize them collectively. And I'm not saying
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: we need to go out and invent one, but I
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: do think that when we as a community see a
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: threat from outside, we tend to gather around our community
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: and maybe excuse some of the foibles from some of
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: our members because there's this bigger thing that we're fighting.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: And I don't think that's all wrong. I don't think
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: that's a bad thing.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, to your previous assertion, which is true, which is
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: that we do not necessarily all know what we're trying
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: to aspire towards. What should we be aspiring towards If
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: you were to, you know, being one of our whether
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: or not you want to admit it or not, you
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: are a leader in this community and a lot of
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: folks look to you, what would be productive future and
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: state be that we should be aspiring towards working towards
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: that way as a culture could be moving in the direction.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: Of such a good question. I mean, we have got
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: to be able to sustain our kind of everything, our
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: ability to manage wildlife. Iink we need to be able
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: to sustain our traditions that we inherited from people who
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: came before us. I think we need to be and
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: sustain is I think the right word. We may not
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: grow it, we may not lose it, but I think
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: we need to sustain and what we have in perpetuity,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: Like we need to be thinking about the things that
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: we do that like that have quantit viable damage to
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: our ability to keep doing this. And so when you
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: talk about you know, our obligation to the community to
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: call out somebody who's who's jeopardizing that or lessening that sustainability.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: I think that I think that's what we do need
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: to do. I think I think we can see it.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: I'll go back to that hundred education class that I
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: started this with. It's like, you know, in some ways,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: we as leaders in this community know the threats, and
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: we know all the many ways that we can lose
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: what we have. Those kids sitting the hundred education class
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: have absolutely no idea kind of what's ahead of a good, bad,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: and indifferent, and I do think to us it's our
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: job is sort of like far sears to like to
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: point out that we've got problems coming up, or we've
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: got problems here that we've got that there are problems
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: in our world. So that's kind of a clumsy way
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: of saying, but I think the the ability to sustain
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: our traditions is probably the better, the best way to
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: put it, because I do think they are uniquely ours.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: Think every generation has had this obligation, but ours just
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: feel a little bit more on the surface and a
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: little bit more the threats are a little bit nearer
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 3: at hand.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So if there was one final.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Thought you want to leave folks with when it comes
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: to this overarching discussion of where we are as a
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: hunting culture. Is there anything we haven't touched on, or
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: anything that you would like to just circle back to
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: and put a pin on for folks as we leave today,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: any thing you want to make sure that we keep
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: in mind moving forward.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: I think it really does come back to that, like
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: talk to people, like be a member of a community,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: whether that's getting to know what your neighbor's needs are
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: or the values of your church or I think that's
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: what we've lost in so many ways, and that's what
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: social media is attempting to sort of fill, is this
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: like ability to communicate with each other, and it's doing
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: it so ineffectively, but just the yeah, the ability to
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: like talk to people is like a lost art these days,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: and it's I see it in myself. It's so much
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: easier just to hide behind a screen and like email somebody.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 3: But I don't think you really get at those sort
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: of intersections of shared values. And even in a small
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: town in rural Montana, I see we we talk beyond
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: each other kind of constantly. But I think there's so
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 3: much at stake there, whether it's hunting access that you
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: are granted by your neighbor, whether it's understanding you know
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: that their appreciation for you in the community. It's that
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: feedback loop that we are getting. And we're now accustomed
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: to getting those sort of quick, caffeinated hits from social media,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: but boy, the satisfying ones are what you're you and
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: I are talking about. It is like pushing pause, taking
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: time to put things in context and then communicating them.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: Wow, that's a really should be pithy, right, should be
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: like right on point. That one was a little bit
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: of like a tombstone.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: No, but it rings. It rings very true. There's there's
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of truth to that. And uh man,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing we need more than ever
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: these days. Andrew, thank you so much for doing this,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: for for sharing your thoughts on all this, for just
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: catching up a little bit. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: Outdoor life dot com is that the best place folks
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: should be heading to find any of your work? Is
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: there anything in particular you want folks to be keeping
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: an eye out an article or a piece of work
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: that you're particularly excited about.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: That's a great question. No, just go you know, I'm
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: all over the place, so yeah, if not there elsewhere.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: But outdoor Life is kind of my homeland and it's
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: a it has been for a long time, and it's
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: it's a great venue for actually to have extensions of
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: just what you and I have talked about.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, thanks, Well, like I said earlier, your your
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: your archive with outdoor Life is uh, it stands stands
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: at the very top of the top of the top.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: There's a lot, a lot of great work there that
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: I've thoroughly enjoyed. And if you guys have any extra
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: time in your hands after this, just go to outdoor
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: life dot com click on Andrew's author name and you'll
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: see pages and pages of articles and there's a lot
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: of really.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 4: Good ones, so check them out.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: Thanks Mark, all.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's a wrap today. Thank you for being here,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: Thanks for engaging on this set of topics. Like I
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: mentioned at the top, let's not stop here. Let's take
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: these conversations and continue them yourself in your own life,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: chatting with your buddies, chatting with your family, chatting with friends,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: discussing these things that the idea here is not that
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: me and Andrew, or me and Tony and Danner or
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: anybody else are going to solve this all ourselves. We're
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: just hoping to catalyze further conversations in the community. This
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: is a jumping off point. You are the one. You
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: and your friends and family and your community are the
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: ones who will actually help determine what the future of
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: our hunting community and culture looks like. So have those conversations,
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: hash these things out, think about this yourself. All of
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: that's going to help point us towards a more positive future.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 4: I appreciate you.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very proud to have you part of this
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: community and thankful for uh for it And until next time,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: stay Wired to hunt.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 4: M m HM