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How to Use AutPlay Therapy with Neurodivergent Kids · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 0:04
  Cathi Spooner: A weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  Cathi Spooner: We'll explore all things play therapy.
• 0:17
  Cathi Spooner: To elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  Cathi Spooner: I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:33
  Cathi Spooner: So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:47
  Cathi Spooner: Hopefully.
• 0:49
  Cathi Spooner: All righty.
• 0:50
  Cathi Spooner: There we go.
• 0:51
  Cathi Spooner: Good morning everyone.
• 0:53
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy and I am super excited about my guest this week, Dr. Robert Jason Grant, who is the creator of Aut Play, and I was so excited.
• 1:07
  Cathi Spooner: I ran into Robert at the APT conference in Houston and thought, oh my gosh, I can save myself in the email.
• 1:16
  Cathi Spooner: I keep forgetting to, to him about coming on the, on the live stream and the, and the podcast because I get asked all the time in my consultation programs how to work with kids who have neurodivergent systems.
• 1:35
  Cathi Spooner: So as a mom of two neurodivergent kids, and probably I would've been diagnosed as well, um, I was super excited, Robert said, yes.
• 1:46
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 1:46
  Cathi Spooner: So that is what we are gonna talk about today, how to support the needs of children who are neurodivergent in play therapy.
• 1:57
  Cathi Spooner: So Robert is a therapist, a supervisor, consultant and the creator of OT play.
• 2:07
  Cathi Spooner: And so welcome Robert to this week's episode of Next Level, uh, play Therapy.
• 2:15
  Cathi Spooner: So I don't know if you wanna say a little, I
• 2:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: appreciate
• 2:18
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, it's great to have you.
• 2:20
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know if you wanna stay a little bit more about.
• 2:23
  Cathi Spooner: Yourself or,
• 2:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: oh, well, I, I'm excited to be here and I'm glad we ran into each other.
• 2:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 2:32
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 2:32
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, so yeah, I mean, I think you, you covered the bases, um, I'm a registered play therapist supervisor as well.
• 2:41
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, and so play therapy has been kind of a mainstay of my mental health career from the beginning.
• 2:50
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And then, um, utilizing it in working with Neurodivergent kids who have mental health needs has been a big piece of what I put my time into and what I still do in the clinic.
• 3:05
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Seeing clients or out there on the road, uh, doing trainings.
• 3:11
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, you've been doing a lot of trainings lately.
• 3:14
  Cathi Spooner: It's like sometimes I'm like, you know, that, that, uh, show my husband used, my husband is such a knucklehead when we were dating, this is like a gazillion years ago.
• 3:25
  Cathi Spooner: Remember that show?
• 3:26
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know if you're even old enough to know this show, but there was a show on TV called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego?
• 3:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Oh, yes, I remember that.
• 3:36
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 3:36
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 3:37
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 3:37
  Cathi Spooner: People, even when we were dating as, as like young adults, that was.
• 3:41
  Cathi Spooner: It's Saturday show.
• 3:42
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 3:43
  Cathi Spooner: Where the world is con.
• 3:44
  Cathi Spooner: So I feel like, I'm like, where in the world is Robert?
• 3:47
  Cathi Spooner: Like
• 3:49
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: sometimes I feel like that where in the world, but it's been, you know, it's been great.
• 3:57
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I mean, especially actually, it's super exciting to go to another country and talk about Neurodivergence because there are a lot of places that really.
• 4:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, it's still very new idea and not something that is getting implemented a lot, neurodiversity of care, and so that's always really fun to get those opportunities.
• 4:21
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But yeah, sometimes it's like I just, I'm ready to be home.
• 4:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 4:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Because I'm a homebody.
• 4:27
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I'm like, I like to just set at my house and do nothing.
• 4:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So, uh, sometimes it's nice to have that.
• 4:33
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 4:35
  Cathi Spooner: I'm a, I'm a homebody too.
• 4:37
  Cathi Spooner: Like, I, like, I like being home, have my home base, have my people around me, and then go travel from there.
• 4:44
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 4:44
  Cathi Spooner: So I totally get that traveling can be
• 4:48
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: absolutely
• 4:49
  Cathi Spooner: tiring for sure.
• 4:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yep.
• 4:52
  Cathi Spooner: Um, well let's, let's go ahead and one of the, you know, uh, like I, we were talking a little bit before the, where before I hit the Go live button.
• 5:04
  Cathi Spooner: Um, we were talking a little bit about, um, how to use Aut play.
• 5:11
  Cathi Spooner: Um, um, not more about like the importance of having a program or have a way of meeting the needs, which of kids with, with neurodivergent systems.
• 5:25
  Cathi Spooner: And, um, that's why I think your, your program that you've developed or your model.
• 5:33
  Cathi Spooner: There's a better way of saying it, to work with neurodivergent kids Aut play, I think is a really important topic.
• 5:42
  Cathi Spooner: And we were also talking a little, a little bit, which I would be.
• 5:46
  Cathi Spooner: Okay, so I'm super nerdy.
• 5:48
  Cathi Spooner: FYI, um, and like we were talking a little bit about some of the, we're always learning more about, autism and neurodivergent ways that it shows up in our systems and our ways of being, so to speak.
• 6:12
  Cathi Spooner: And I was curious some, I didn't tell you I was gonna do this, so
• 6:16
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's okay.
• 6:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's all right.
• 6:18
  Cathi Spooner: My god.
• 6:19
  Cathi Spooner: Poor, poor, poor Robert.
• 6:20
  Cathi Spooner: He's gonna be a good sport though.
• 6:22
  Cathi Spooner: I was curious about some of the things that you're kind of noticing these days or finding out a little bit more from the research about some things that we're learning about autism and neurodivergent kids and, and teens.
• 6:41
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 6:41
  Cathi Spooner: That, uh,'cause 'cause we are, we're always learning and more things are coming forward about it.
• 6:48
  Cathi Spooner: And I know people are, you know, um, hearing different things, some of which may be true.
• 6:56
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Cathi Spooner: And some of 'em may not be, and not sure what the heck's going on.
• 7:00
  Cathi Spooner: So I don't know what, what about that are?
• 7:04
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Well, I think that, um, I like that throw in question because actually I think that's kind of what's informed al place growth through the years mm-hmm is as we have learned better how to help.
• 7:22
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know, we're calling neurodivergent individuals.
• 7:24
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 7:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Then Aut play has adjusted and shifted um, it's a framework that, you know, looks really quite a bit different than it did the first time it was created, and that's because of this knowledge that is in.
• 7:44
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 7:44
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We learn more about neurodiversity affirming care.
• 7:47
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And we've learned more about the real needs of neurodivergent kids and adults.
• 7:55
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And that has shaped, you know, the changes in the Aut play program and the growth.
• 8:00
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And I think my growth, um, as a neurodivergent person, because the ease concepts were, you know, really first came into existence in the very late nineties and early two thousands.
• 8:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So.
• 8:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: They've been around a while, but they weren't really known then, even though that's kind of when they immersed.
• 8:19
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I would say it's been over the last decade, 15 years, that this has really come into, uh, more mainstream knowledge, the things that we're talking about.
• 8:32
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So there's a lot of people out there who have been discovering mm-hmm, neuro divergence.
• 8:43
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Discovering what it means, uh, to be talking about the neurodiversity paradigm and being neurodiversity affirming.
• 8:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And then that has increased the research, uh, which is been helpful, and I think that's just going to continue to happen more and more.
• 9:02
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I think one of the big things for us in mental health care with neurodivergent clients is our understanding of identity awareness.
• 9:12
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: As a very positive mental health concept that, uh, that almost in the Aut play framework, it's an all the time goal.
• 9:23
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 9:23
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It's that the child is gonna learn, you know, how they operate, who they are as an autistic child or an A DHD or, or someone with sensory differences.
• 9:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And it's going to be presented to them in an affirming way, not a problematic pathologizing way.
• 9:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So it actually directly relates to their self-worth.
• 9:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So that becomes a huge mental health piece.
• 9:49
  Cathi Spooner: Agreed.
• 9:50
  Cathi Spooner: Can I tell you something?
• 9:51
  Cathi Spooner: You're gonna be appalled by this.
• 9:54
  Cathi Spooner: I'm kind of like, I look back on it and I think, oh my gosh.
• 9:58
  Cathi Spooner: So, um, I got started in special education.
• 10:02
  Cathi Spooner: I, as a special education teacher back in the, 1980s, Uhhuh and I, the, the, you know, well, one, they still use this classification, which I find appalling, which is, uh, children with um, SED severely emotionally disturbed.
• 10:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Okay.
• 10:22
  Cathi Spooner: It's such a horrible time.
• 10:23
  Cathi Spooner: And then after years, that's the one back in the eighties, that was the special education, um, focus that I had.
• 10:31
  Cathi Spooner: And so when I started as a special education teacher, smack out of, um, my bachelor's degree in the 1980s, I don't know if you know this question, do you know what they called kids, which now they call it attention deficit hyperactivity.
• 10:52
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 10:52
  Cathi Spooner: Right?
• 10:52
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 10:53
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 10:53
  Cathi Spooner: This is kind of a pop quiz.
• 10:56
  Cathi Spooner: Do you know what they called it back in the eighties?
• 11:00
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So do I know what they call it?
• 11:01
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: A DHD back in the years?
• 11:03
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah, back in
• 11:03
  Cathi Spooner: that it was, it's an appalling term, basically.
• 11:06
  Cathi Spooner: I don't
• 11:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: know.
• 11:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I don't know
• 11:07
  Cathi Spooner: it.
• 11:08
  Cathi Spooner: Minimal brain dysfunction.
• 11:10
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Oh my gosh.
• 11:11
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I'm not, uh, I mean, I'm not surprised.
• 11:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It was something that said degree,
• 11:16
  Cathi Spooner: minimal, minimal brain dysfunction.
• 11:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 11:19
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's awful.
• 11:20
  Cathi Spooner: I thank goodness say, I don't know.
• 11:22
  Cathi Spooner: I think they changed it with the I when I went back to grad school.
• 11:27
  Cathi Spooner: And I was getting my degree.
• 11:28
  Cathi Spooner: We were, we were using the DSM three, three R. Right.
• 11:34
  Cathi Spooner: And in the three R it had been changed, so That's good.
• 11:38
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Oh my gosh.
• 11:39
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Thank goodness.
• 11:39
  Cathi Spooner: Early nineties.
• 11:40
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 11:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We have come, we have come up with some pretty humanizing terms or different diagnosis in the dsm, that's for sure.
• 11:49
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 11:50
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 11:51
  Cathi Spooner: But I remember it.
• 11:53
  Cathi Spooner: Um, I remember back, uh, when was it?
• 11:58
  Cathi Spooner: It was in the early two thousands.
• 12:00
  Cathi Spooner: Like nobody was even talking about sensory issue.
• 12:06
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Cathi Spooner: That, that's how I found out about it.
• 12:07
  Cathi Spooner: My kids had it and I'm like, why is my kid not working the way other kids do?
• 12:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 12:13
  Cathi Spooner: And I get all of this advice from the other moms and the and, and then.
• 12:20
  Cathi Spooner: You know, I'm a new mom and uh, and mom like, ah, I tried that with my kid and I'm not doing it anymore, so gimme your looks.
• 12:30
  Cathi Spooner: I don't care.
• 12:31
  Cathi Spooner: Like that, just my, the model kid I got does not work that way.
• 12:37
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 12:38
  Cathi Spooner: And what I realized much, much, much later was the sensory issues and then much, much later, that it was a DHD and I, but this was, this was back in the early nineties.
• 12:50
  Cathi Spooner: There was no mental health coverage for autism.
• 12:55
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 12:56
  Cathi Spooner: And all the services for kids with autism, parents had to pay out of pocket.
• 13:02
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Cathi Spooner: And that, so things have, things have, I think, moved in a, a really good direction compared to,
• 13:10
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: definitely improved or I
• 13:11
  Cathi Spooner: think, yeah.
• 13:13
  Cathi Spooner: Hm.
• 13:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I think we have that going in our favor, that things are improving now.
• 13:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: At a regular rate.
• 13:23
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: There's a lot of things that still need to improve, but it's in, it's on the road, you know?
• 13:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 13:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Least people are looking at it and understanding it and learning more, and then things are, systems are changing and processes are changing, so we're in process, which is good.
• 13:40
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 13:41
  Cathi Spooner: And so how would you describe Aut play and what is Aut play?
• 13:47
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know, Robert, if you notice my little fancy banners here,
• 13:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I like them.
• 13:52
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes, I did.
• 13:53
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Notice
• 13:56
  Cathi Spooner: Stream has these cool banners, those of you listening to the podcast.
• 14:01
  Cathi Spooner: You won't be able to see my fancy little banners, but if you're watching money,
• 14:04
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: if they look good, just we'll just tell you they look good.
• 14:07
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, I think Aut play, well first of all, it's a framework.
• 14:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 14:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, really not technically a model or a theory.
• 14:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, it's thought of more as like a framework for understanding how to do neurodiversity affirming care.
• 14:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Okay.
• 14:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: With a special focus on play therapy, because that's what I am as a play therapist and what I primarily do, Although I think a lot of the neurodiversity framework components would apply to anybody who's working with neurodivergent kids, even if you're not doing specifically a play therapy theory approach.
• 14:46
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But it's a way to understand, uh, neurodivergent clients.
• 14:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And what is meant by being neurodiversity affirming or applying neurodiversity affirming care when you're working on your therapy goals with this client, where we're really trying to avoid ableist pieces in our mental health work.
• 15:09
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, and so it's sort of like a layover, like I can go out and do Gestalt play therapy or Adlerian play therapy or child center play therapy.
• 15:19
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And then my Aut play therapy training comes in and informs me Okay, of how to stay neurodiversity affirming throughout that process.
• 15:28
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: If there's a neurodivergent child that I'm working with,
• 15:32
  Cathi Spooner: oh, that's awesome.
• 15:33
  Cathi Spooner: Okay.
• 15:35
  Cathi Spooner: I, oh, okay.
• 15:36
  Cathi Spooner: Well, I'm glad you said that because I can say in my, so I have a Play Therapy Academy program.
• 15:43
  Cathi Spooner: And we do consultation
• 15:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: mm-hmm.
• 15:46
  Cathi Spooner: A month.
• 15:46
  Cathi Spooner: And people, the, in the program, they ask all the time.
• 15:49
  Cathi Spooner: And so, so my way, my way I've been describing it has been because I took your training.
• 15:56
  Cathi Spooner: You came to Nevada that one time and Yes, we had f remember that we met Yeah.
• 16:01
  Cathi Spooner: We had that, which was really good.
• 16:03
  Cathi Spooner: And as I was taking the training, I was thinking this is a lot like a, an improved version of child-centered play therapy for kids, who's who are neurodivergent.
• 16:16
  Cathi Spooner: Yes.
• 16:16
  Cathi Spooner: And that's kind of the way I've been explaining it.
• 16:20
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 16:20
  Cathi Spooner: The next thing outta my mouth is usually, have you heard of Robert?
• 16:23
  Cathi Spooner: Jason Gray?
• 16:26
  Cathi Spooner: You should probably take that training if you have a lot of kids, um, on your caseload.
• 16:32
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 16:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 16:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Well, I appreciate the shout outs.
• 16:35
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I think, um, it's such a great training because it's really, it probably has more it probably has more philosophically in line with the cultural humility training than a play theory training, if that makes sense, because why it does
• 16:54
  Cathi Spooner: make sense.
• 16:55
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 16:55
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We are talking about diversity and you know, a group of people who are recognized as a diversity group, and so there's a lot of those components in there.
• 17:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We do have a piece, and I think this is kind of what you were talking about, it's called the follow me approach, which we did put together, which is probably the most model like component.
• 17:21
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 17:21
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, and it has a lot of child-centered play therapy and Filial play therapy integration, but it was put together specifically for high support needs kids.
• 17:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 17:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: 'cause of course, when we say neurodivergent, we're talking about people all over the spectrum of presentation from, right.
• 17:41
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Somebody who's a member of Congress to somebody who can't leave their home without 24 hour care.
• 17:49
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And so that's a pretty incredible range.
• 17:53
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 17:53
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 17:54
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, sharing the same diagnosis sometimes and sharing the same, uh, identity of Neurodivergence.
• 18:01
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So with kids who are in that category of really high support needs.
• 18:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know, they may not engage, they may not speak, they may present in ways as being very withdrawn, uh, or have a lot of co-occurring, maybe medical conditions.
• 18:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: They come into the playroom sometimes and they're just not gonna play like the way a lot of play therapists are gonna be used.
• 18:27
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 18:28
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And so the follow me approach is just a guide for how to work with those kids in mental health care.
• 18:36
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, and it's very humanistic based.
• 18:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 18:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So there's a lot of CCPT and phileo in there.
• 18:44
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 18:44
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Cathi Spooner: You know what?
• 18:45
  Cathi Spooner: I think you're right that,'cause when you were talking, I was thinking, yeah, that's the part that I, I do remember.
• 18:52
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Cathi Spooner: Um, so how would you say Aut play if you're, if you're a play therapist, how would you say Aut play can be helpful to add to, for lack of a better way of saying it, you're a therapeutic toolbox and I love that idea of diversity.
• 19:12
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 19:13
  Cathi Spooner: Um, I think I've kind of thought of it that way as well myself, but nobody ever, uh, nobody other than, well nobody said it outside their heads in my presence, so.
• 19:26
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, and I haven't said it outside my head.
• 19:28
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Sure, that's okay.
• 19:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, I love this question, by the way.
• 19:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah, that's such a good question.
• 19:35
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, I think that in two ways, there's the standard, you know, any, any child that comes in to see us, I mean, there's a mental health need or we're not gonna work with them.
• 19:47
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So it's trauma, it's attachments, depression, it's anxiety, it's whatever is going on that we need to work on.
• 19:54
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And I think what the Aut play framework does in those cases is it comes in and really helps the practitioner understand I may be working on trauma, which is the therapy goal, and maybe I'm going to use some play-based EMDR, maybe I'm going to use trauma play or whatever.
• 20:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, but the Aut play framework comes in and helps 'em understand, this is a neurodivergent client, so they may need me to do this in a different way that best fits the way that they process, communicate, experience, emotions.
• 20:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So it helps with the idea of what we kind of always say in the framework is we take our play therapy theory to the neurodivergent child.
• 20:41
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We don't force our neurodivergent child into a theory.
• 20:44
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, I love that.
• 20:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And that kind of helps people understand how to do that when they're working on those goals.
• 20:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: The other way it helps, uh, children heal is, and this is the piece that the research is really emphasizing now in, in a really nice way, is neurodivergent kids have certain needs to really put them in a good mental health space, and they're specific to being neuro divergent.
• 21:15
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So you may be working on some of these things as your therapy goals, like identity, awareness, from affirming perspective, autonomy, advocacy, self-worth.
• 21:28
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know, these are all things that can take a hit by being neurodivergent and navigating in neurotypical systems that aren't supporting you.
• 21:39
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So that becomes a whole nother side of the therapy.
• 21:43
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That we might be working on with a child and helping them with
• 21:48
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I I love that.
• 21:49
  Cathi Spooner: And as you were talking, I was, you know, 'cause we're, you know, it's interesting'cause as play therapists, we're, we're therapists, right?
• 21:57
  Cathi Spooner: We help children.
• 21:58
  Cathi Spooner: We, us, we usually have our own kids.
• 22:01
  Cathi Spooner: And so.
• 22:02
  Cathi Spooner: Sometimes there's that overlap between, okay, I'm wearing my play therapist hat, I'm wearing my mom hat.
• 22:09
  Cathi Spooner: Yes, the two overlap.
• 22:10
  Cathi Spooner: So I can take my play therapist hat and figure out how to support my kid.
• 22:14
  Cathi Spooner: But I, I remember when the, like my son's almost 30, the oldest one, and I, and there wasn't a lot back then.
• 22:24
  Cathi Spooner: I mean, I knew a lot just because like, I can probably chase it through the the down my family system.
• 22:31
  Cathi Spooner: Some things.
• 22:32
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 22:33
  Cathi Spooner: Um, but I, I remember it does, it takes a hit on their self-esteem.
• 22:39
  Cathi Spooner: 'cause I can remember just some of the struggles that we had and I'm watching his little self-esteem.
• 22:46
  Cathi Spooner: Well, both of 'em actually in different ways.
• 22:48
  Cathi Spooner: And I, I think as play the, I think play therapy is a way to be able to help children see themselves in a better way.
• 23:00
  Cathi Spooner: Um, like you were saying, identity formation and I'm, I'm not bad,
• 23:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: right?
• 23:08
  Cathi Spooner: I am, I'm this positive thing or I'm this positive thing.
• 23:13
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 23:13
  Cathi Spooner: And I'm, I'm a cool kid.
• 23:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know, it's interesting because both these terms, neurodiversity and neurodivergent, they came into existence as sociopolitical terms.
• 23:28
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's why they were created.
• 23:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's why the people who created them created them, and that's how they define them.
• 23:35
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And the point, you know, being of that is they were adults who were autistic, A DH, adhd, and they were saying, Hey, yeah, we do have needs at some times that maybe a need for this service or that service or therapy.
• 23:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But there are things that are just who we are that are differences that aren't a need, but they're being pathologized and we're being put in therapies to address things that aren't a deficit.
• 24:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: They're just a difference.
• 24:08
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 24:09
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And that's really where that sociopolitical idea came from of those terms.
• 24:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And it kind of goes to what you were saying, when you navigate through, you know, as a kid especially, you're walking into a different environment after environment and the message that you're getting when you're just kind of being you, how your brain works.
• 24:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 24:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Is that it's bad and that you're a problem.
• 24:35
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I mean, it's gonna take a hit to the self-esteem big time.
• 24:38
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And then we know that starts the bad road to all kinds of mental health issues when Yeah.
• 24:45
  Cathi Spooner: You know, and I remember that back when I was a special ed teacher, because back, back in the eighties at least where I was, we were living in Virginia in, um, Fairfax, and I was teaching in Fairfax County right outside Washington, dc which is like a ginormous school, coun, um, county.
• 25:04
  Cathi Spooner: But I, I, I used to break my heart as a teacher.
• 25:07
  Cathi Spooner: Kids in there, like I, I can remember a couple of kids super bright, like you could tell their brain was so, um, advanced and yet could not read.
• 25:22
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Cathi Spooner: Like could, could do the comprehension piece, but not the, like the, uh, I don't know what the word is.
• 25:30
  Cathi Spooner: I'll say decoding piece.
• 25:32
  Cathi Spooner: Like, I couldn't, I couldn't break down the mechanics of the word at the same time and just broke, you know, like saying things like I'm dumb or I'm stupid and Right.
• 25:44
  Cathi Spooner: You know, and, and just saying to 'em, oh, you're not really, but like if I read this to you, you get it.
• 25:52
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 25:52
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It's
• 25:52
  Cathi Spooner: faster than the other kids.
• 25:55
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah,
• 25:55
  Cathi Spooner: I say that quietly.
• 25:59
  Cathi Spooner: So just trying different strategies.
• 26:01
  Cathi Spooner: But yeah, we've come a long way.
• 26:04
  Cathi Spooner: Um,
• 26:05
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: it's nice.
• 26:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It's,
• 26:07
  Cathi Spooner: and yeah, in some ways still.
• 26:10
  Cathi Spooner: Not necessarily understanding it, like you were saying in terms of how are we viewing people?
• 26:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 26:19
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I think systems change.
• 26:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It's always hard.
• 26:21
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 26:22
  Cathi Spooner: It
• 26:22
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: takes a while.
• 26:23
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It's like, you know, moving a giant mountain around, uh, some with some of these systems, but it's getting there.
• 26:32
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I think on the individual level, for sure, more and more just therapists or educators.
• 26:38
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah,
• 26:38
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: getting access to like neurodiversity affirming information and I think
• 26:42
  Cathi Spooner: I'm more aware now, like we're more aware of what I remember back in the early, like the early, when was it?
• 26:50
  Cathi Spooner: When my kids were born in the nineties, so like in the early two thousands, just talking to anybody and every, anybody about sensory.
• 27:01
  Cathi Spooner: Sensory processing and hey, you're staying.
• 27:04
  Cathi Spooner: Like, Hmm.
• 27:05
  Cathi Spooner: Pay attention to this.
• 27:06
  Cathi Spooner: It might not be that your child is trying to be oppositional, it might be that right.
• 27:11
  Cathi Spooner: Sensory system is just overloaded and we need to do some things differently.
• 27:16
  Cathi Spooner: And I feel like now people understand sensory issues.
• 27:21
  Cathi Spooner: I think it, if we consider asynchronous development, we could consider.
• 27:31
  Cathi Spooner: Um, gifted the gifted brain and have Oh,
• 27:33
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: sure.
• 27:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 27:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know,
• 27:35
  Cathi Spooner: I feel like we still have a lot more work having a gifted kid.
• 27:39
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and a husband who I'm convinced is gifted
• 27:43
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: uhhuh,
• 27:43
  Cathi Spooner: Authough he denies it, but like, no, your brain works different than the average bear.
• 27:49
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Right.
• 27:50
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um,
• 27:51
  Cathi Spooner: so yeah.
• 27:52
  Cathi Spooner: And so it's, it's good that there are a lot of changes.
• 27:57
  Cathi Spooner: That over, you know, since, at least since I've been around in the 1980s.
• 28:02
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 28:03
  Cathi Spooner: Like you were saying, I think as, as we learn more and as the adults learn more
• 28:09
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 28:09
  Cathi Spooner: And those who can be the change makers as they learn more, then we can, we got, we got the ability to move things forward and I, I think as play therapist, what I've appreciated what Aut play brings to our play therapy space is how do we do that as play therapists?
• 28:33
  Cathi Spooner: Like how do we make sure we're supporting kids?
• 28:37
  Cathi Spooner: 'cause we are probably going to be seeing them because they might be coming in for something else and then Right.
• 28:46
  Cathi Spooner: Therapists, I, I feel like we realize, Hmm, something's, a little different here.
• 28:51
  Cathi Spooner: Let's figure out what this is.
• 28:54
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: You know, I think I have taught, trained, spoken to a lot of different groups of professionals over the years.
• 29:05
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 29:05
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Something that I wasn't really planning on happening.
• 29:09
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But I think because of the topic, um, you know, I find myself in front of other disciplines or in schools with educators or lots of different people.
• 29:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And I will say that I think play therapists, you know, in general get neurodiversity affirming care.
• 29:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Like when they hear it, they're like, I get that and that sounds right and I want to do that because I think just in play therapy in general, and there is this baseline across all of our theories and approaches, which is we wanna be child centered.
• 29:46
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 29:46
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Right?
• 29:47
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And we want to build up the child, their self, and those humanistic pieces that e really go through all our theories and approaches to on some level.
• 30:01
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, I think when play therapists, you know, learn that and have that, and many of them do.
• 30:07
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Then this is sort of just like an extension of that in a way.
• 30:10
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Like it's fine tuning it a little bit more for neurodivergent kids.
• 30:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 30:14
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And so I find that a lot of play therapists respond, you know, pretty positively to all play therapy and also pick it up sometimes after a training.
• 30:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, I'll have therapists come up to me and say, this is kind of what I was thinking instinctually that I should be doing with my kids.
• 30:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And now I just needed that validation that I was right.
• 30:37
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, and I'm like, yeah, because you know, you're a play therapist and you know, we just have, you know, the child is the important person for us in the room, not our agenda.
• 30:51
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And I think that that lends itself really well to neurodiversity affirming care.
• 30:56
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 30:58
  Cathi Spooner: Well, how, how do you, from an au play perspective, um, and as a play therapist, what are some ways that you got like your framework integrates parents?
• 31:12
  Cathi Spooner: Because I, I'm a big proponent of kids live in systems.
• 31:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 31:18
  Cathi Spooner: And expecting a, like we teach a 7-year-old coping skills and think they're gonna be able to do that when they're at a 9 1 1 in their brain.
• 31:29
  Cathi Spooner: I by themselves have to use your coping skills right now.
• 31:32
  Cathi Spooner: I'm seven.
• 31:33
  Cathi Spooner: I need you to help me.
• 31:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: That's right.
• 31:36
  Cathi Spooner: All the time.
• 31:37
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um.
• 31:38
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Well, I also am a big proponent of working with caregivers.
• 31:41
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 31:42
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: From the beginning of my career, uh, it has been that way.
• 31:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I just, um, logically went into play therapy, thinking I'd be working with parents all the time.
• 31:52
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I didn't realize, you know, there would be these spaces where you wouldn't work with parents.
• 31:55
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I just thought, you know, they're in there all the time because why wouldn't they be?
• 32:00
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 32:00
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, and so in the Aut play framework, we encourage that a lot.
• 32:04
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We talk a lot about working with caregivers.
• 32:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: There's different levels, of course, how that can look, uh, depending on what the therapy needs are.
• 32:15
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But I think it's important anytime.
• 32:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But with neurodivergent kids, we also have to remember there's a lot of other things going on.
• 32:23
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 32:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 32:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: The parents have to be these frontline people all the time.
• 32:30
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 32:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Whether it's advocacy work.
• 32:34
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Understanding how their child operates and being able to explain that to somebody else.
• 32:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Accessing services.
• 32:42
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: They are a support service themself.
• 32:44
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Mm-hmm.
• 32:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: There's so many components where it just seems odd if we wouldn't be working with the caregivers.
• 32:53
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Cathi Spooner: I, I agree.
• 32:55
  Cathi Spooner: And I, I, I think like balancing it out as well, understanding that, caregivers are probably going to a bunch of different appointments and possibly like what are, from a service standpoint, what are they, are they going to occupational therapy also?
• 33:15
  Cathi Spooner: Are they, are they doing, um, speech therapy?
• 33:20
  Cathi Spooner: Sometimes they build services are in place as well as counseling.
• 33:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 33:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 33:25
  Cathi Spooner: So it can be a little overwhelming sometimes.
• 33:29
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 33:29
  Cathi Spooner: So I feel like as, play therapist.
• 33:31
  Cathi Spooner: Our job is to support the caregivers as much as it is to support the kids.
• 33:39
  Cathi Spooner: I mean, we do that in little different ways.
• 33:40
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Well, there's a direct benefit.
• 33:43
  Cathi Spooner: Mm-hmm.
• 33:45
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Whatever you're, you may be a part of doing that's helping the caregiver, you are then helping the child.
• 33:53
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And so I think when we look at it from that perspective, then we start to open it up more to, okay, how is the care, how am I gonna work with the caregiver with this case?
• 34:05
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: What needs to happen here?
• 34:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 34:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, and making sure that that does take place and that does happen.
• 34:12
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 34:13
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And I think caregivers most of the time really appreciate that.
• 34:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, they're very thankful for the therapist, including them in whatever way it is, and helping them with things or providing them with tools.
• 34:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Uh, that is something most parents I think, want.
• 34:31
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: And so when we do that, I think they are also much happier with the therapeutic experience.
• 34:39
  Cathi Spooner: Agreed.
• 34:40
  Cathi Spooner: And just like somebody who gets it and they don't have to explain something to them.
• 34:46
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 34:46
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 34:47
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 34:48
  Cathi Spooner: Way, way, way back in the day when I was living in Virginia, I, I ran a, a parenting group for, kids, uh, parents of kids who were either had a DHD or autism or both and took forever to get them in there.
• 35:07
  Cathi Spooner: But one of the things that I used to say to like, who's gonna get it better than other parents?
• 35:14
  Cathi Spooner: Right?
• 35:14
  Cathi Spooner: Like this, and this is probably 15 years ago now.
• 35:18
  Cathi Spooner: Um, and they, you know, they'd be like, I don't really wanna spill my, you know, stuff in front of people, I don't know.
• 35:26
  Cathi Spooner: But once they got in there and they started feeling like I, they got the support, they didn't have to explain.
• 35:36
  Cathi Spooner: They got people who understood.
• 35:38
  Cathi Spooner: Family members who are like, I, maybe we don't bring your child.
• 35:43
  Cathi Spooner: Or, um, getting judged.
• 35:46
  Cathi Spooner: You know, like, you're not doing a good parenting job, or you should do it this way.
• 35:52
  Cathi Spooner: You're spoiling your kid.
• 35:55
  Cathi Spooner: All the things.
• 35:56
  Cathi Spooner: Right,
• 35:57
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: right.
• 35:59
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Excuse me.
• 35:59
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I'm sorry.
• 36:01
  Cathi Spooner: I know we both have cold.
• 36:02
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We do.
• 36:03
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We do.
• 36:03
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 36:04
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 36:04
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: I, I have been so excited that I got this far.
• 36:08
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: What the,
• 36:09
  Cathi Spooner: I know you were doing good.
• 36:11
  Cathi Spooner: I'm thinking, Ooh, having a cold gives Robert a really.
• 36:14
  Cathi Spooner: Good broadcaster voice.
• 36:16
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Oh my gosh.
• 36:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: It does.
• 36:18
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: But then I like,
• 36:19
  Cathi Spooner: like good voice.
• 36:20
  Cathi Spooner: I
• 36:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: almost got to the whole end without,
• 36:22
  Cathi Spooner: I know you did.
• 36:23
  Cathi Spooner: You were doing good.
• 36:24
  Cathi Spooner: I apologize
• 36:24
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: to everybody listening.
• 36:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: No
• 36:26
  Cathi Spooner: worries.
• 36:26
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Cathi Spooner: Well, um, Robert, if people want to, to learn more about Aut play or some trainings, what.
• 36:38
  Cathi Spooner: How I'm gonna put the, uh, website up here.
• 36:41
  Cathi Spooner: It's Aut play therapy.com.
• 36:44
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that's A-U-T-P-L-A-Y-T-H-E-R-A-P-Y for those of you listening on the podcast.
• 36:54
  Cathi Spooner: Um, but so is, are there other ways to get in touch with you if people want to learn more or maybe take some training with you?
• 37:06
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yeah, I think this website is the best.
• 37:09
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Um, my email's on there, our social media is on there.
• 37:15
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: All the trainings are listed on there, so going to the website's kind of like a good one.
• 37:20
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Stop.
• 37:21
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, good.
• 37:22
  Cathi Spooner: Okay.
• 37:23
  Cathi Spooner: And you do consultation as well or just
• 37:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes.
• 37:26
  Cathi Spooner: Finding if people are interested in doing some consulting with you.
• 37:30
  Cathi Spooner: I where I think it gets pretty complex for play therapists is, like you mentioned before, like the layers of maybe trauma or um, attachment issues, maybe some foster care, adoption things are working through on top of the, um, neuro neurodivergent things.
• 37:52
  Cathi Spooner: Absolutely.
• 37:54
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: So supervision, consultation, and again, on the Aut play website, uh, anyone would be able to find all that information and even if they just, you know, have a question, they can email us.
• 38:08
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, good.
• 38:08
  Cathi Spooner: Okay.
• 38:10
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 38:11
  Cathi Spooner: Well, it was, I wish we had more time.
• 38:12
  Cathi Spooner: I, I'm thinking, oh, I could totally nerd out.
• 38:15
  Cathi Spooner: We could probably go on for hours.
• 38:17
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: We could, I'm sure.
• 38:19
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Cathi Spooner: Well, thank you so much for.
• 38:22
  Cathi Spooner: Um, joining us today and being part of it and sharing, I know I actually learned some more things as well, so that was super helpful.
• 38:32
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know about anybody else, but I got a lot outta it.
• 38:35
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Well, I had a good time, so thanks for inviting me.
• 38:39
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 38:40
  Cathi Spooner: All righty.
• 38:41
  Cathi Spooner: Well.
• 38:42
  Cathi Spooner: Um, for those of you who are watching live or watching the replay, we'll also post in the comments, links to the website.
• 38:55
  Cathi Spooner: And other than that, and then next week, the next two weeks off for the holidays, I am going to be taking a break from the livestream episodes, but I'll be posting some of, some of the replays of previous.
• 39:10
  Cathi Spooner: Uh, I call them oldies but goodies.
• 39:13
  Cathi Spooner: So I wish you a happy holiday season, Robert, and, and the rest of you watching live or listening.
• 39:22
  Cathi Spooner: Happy holidays, everyone.
• 39:24
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Yes, take care.
• 39:25
  Dr. Robert Jason Grant: Bye.
• 39:33
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 39:37
  Cathi Spooner: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 39:47
  Cathi Spooner: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 39:52
  Cathi Spooner: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 39:58
  Cathi Spooner: Remember.
• 39:59
  Cathi Spooner: Play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 40:03
  Cathi Spooner: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work in relationships.
• 40:14
  Cathi Spooner: If you have any questions or topics, suggestions for future.
• 40:19
  Cathi Spooner: I'd love to hear from you.
• 40:21
  Cathi Spooner: Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 40:34
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 40:37
  Cathi Spooner: Until next time, keep playing, learning and growing.