Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Winter Series Gems (June) (2022)

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Winter Series Gems (June) (2022) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Well of Light Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Luke, one of the producers of the show.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: As a producer, I love my work and helping Deborah and our team share so many wonderful stories.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: From food to fashion and art to music, we've got you covered.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we'll be looking at some of the best moments of this past year.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_05: Dr.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: Marie Balancig is a senior research officer at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_05: Her team at the Hudson performs cutting-edge science informed by patients and clinicians to improve the outcome and diagnosis for women with ovarian cancer.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: That comes into fruition, so I I guess there's probably a lot of misconceptions around the ovarian cancer space.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of women believe that because they've had a paper, that a papnea can detect ovarian cancer.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, a survey that was done last year found that 50% of Australian women believe that apsia would detect ovarian cancer.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that's half of the women in this country when in fact it doesn't.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have an early detection test for ovarian cancer.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: And whiz women are told to look for symptoms such as bloating, tiredness, generally feeling unwell.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Now I think each and every one of your listeners that is a female will probably attest to the fact that you get these symptoms when you get your periods.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then when you are progressing to early stage menopause, you don't know what to expect.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: These symptoms can also be attributed to um going through menopause.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: So also you know, I'm not speaking for all women, but most women just simply get on with it.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: We're used to, you know, the blokes, we're used to feeling tired, we're used to feeling crampy and achy.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So you you quite often might dismiss these symptoms, which are really early symptoms of the disease for just being things that become part and parcel of being a female.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Also, a lot of women believe that um you can they were protected from ovarian cancer because it has the cervical cancer vaccine, which in fact is for a different disease in itself.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess there is a lot of misconceptions and ambiguity around the ovarian cancer message.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: But that probably has to do with, you know, the awareness.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, we don't education.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Education and awareness, and we're doing like since I first started working 13, 14 years ago to now, there are some amazing awareness campaigns out there.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: And when are really jumping on um, you know, spreading the message of ovarian care.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: But before then, it wasn't really talked about, was it?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_05: I don't quite know why.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I mean, obviously the White Shirt campaign, the Witchery campaign, the you know, the ambassadors that have come on board have have really elevated it into the public space, which is which is amazing.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_05: And then the morning teas that people conduct every year, it's become very, it's sort of becoming almost like the pink ribbon strategy that really took off for breast cancer awareness and the McGrath Foundation, etc.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_05: Are we getting closer to improving that education?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_05: Because really, as you're saying, the fund, it sort of goes education, then you and you you need the funding in order to make sure that this test is something that can be developed and research can continue.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_05: So they're sort of hand in hand, is that right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: In terms of I would say so.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think collectively, if you understand a little bit more about the disease, that people would be more inclined to recognise the need for an early detection test.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, because there are those misconceptions where people, 50% of us, believe that a perhaps me is going to detect it, maybe we don't as a society recognize there's a technique for this test and how much this early detection test can actually improve things for women with ovarian cancer.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I as a researcher am guilty of rattling off statistics, and I think a lot of people get overwhelmed by numbers and don't recognise that these numbers are actual women.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, 90% of women that are caught in the early stages of the disease, ovarian cancer, will survive.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_05: So we need to catch it early to improve the survival rate.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's very important statistic.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: That that's really quite quite important.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_05: So, so if so, would you recommend, for example, everyone gets their breast screen, everyone gets their papsmia, etc., etc.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_05: Do you so your your hope is that the research will lead to everyone just gets their ovarian cancer screening test or blood test or what?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_05: So can you tell me a little bit about how that logistically would work should once it becomes part of the medical um strategy, I suppose, for every woman?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it's really contingent on the type of test that we'll be doing.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um the group that I work with at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research that's led by Dr.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Andrew Stevens is looking at um combining it with the paper, so it would be a cervical swab or a swab that you take.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that test would need to be done um every couple of years.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: The women that work in our group would like to have it as a blood test, not a swab, but yes, I I hear you, and I I must say Yeah, beggars can't be choosers, but we're we're you know trying to, if it could be a blood test, a blood test I think would encourage more sort of compliance with the community.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: But if it has to be an asthmia, then it would have to be something like that.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_05: So that's an important point.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think though that you raise something because by having females on the team, on the research team, you can actually make that point as part of the strategy and the research, which would otherwise just, you know, men can't possibly comprehend how I suppose not fun the old, you know, the pap smear is.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_05: And so for them, it's just a well, what's gonna get the best results?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: But the truth is we want that too.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: But you've highlighted that it needs to be factored in, that women would prefer, and you're right, you'll get more compliance for sure.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_05: If people go, oh, I'll just get it as part as part of my blood test, or I can get a separate blood test.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_05: And even then they're gonna be a little reticent, but it's certainly less reticent than if they have to have a pack.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think that's being um heard, or do you think it's do you think that that will be a percentage thing?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: Loud and clear, good.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, loud and clear.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, yeah.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: So how far away are we from that test being offered?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: So the way that it works, we don't have an early detection test um for ovarian cancer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Our group has been focused for um, I'd say like over a decade on finding a marker that's going to be able to tell us that a woman has ovarian cancer in its earliest stages.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Essentially, we don't have any reagents towards those markers.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: So all of the um tools that you use to build the detection test actually need to be built themselves.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to it's not like you can go to a supermarket shelf and say, okay, here are the ingredients on my recipe at least.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: I can kick it off the shelf and make this test.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: We have to make the ingredients.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um so we want to be sure 100% that the test that we've developed will pick up ovarian cancer in its earliest stages in all of the women that we've trained.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so currently we have done a pre-clinical trial on a group of women who have a predisposition to ovarian cancer.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: So these might be women that carry their bracket gene mutations and they undergo what's called prophylactic surgery.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: So they know that they there's the potential that they'll get ovarian cancer, so they choose to remove their ovaries.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and as a part of that, you can do quite in-depth physiological assessments of um their ovaries to see whether they have pre-metastatic lesions or these precursor lesions or a really, really early stage ovarian cancer.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: And we compare that with the actual tests that they've developed to be sure that that test can actually pick it up in these women.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: So what happens normally is I um will give talks or interact with females and like, yeah, yeah, we're happy to donate to research, we're really happy to be involved if this is gonna be something that's gonna be all women.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, until you tell them, oh, we actually need your whole ovary to do these tests um to to work it out.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: So um that political trial has really done some amazing things.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um my institute would probably get me into trouble for talking too much about it, but I think it's something that you should um really follow on the Hudson Institute or also the Ivarian Cancer Research Translation has been fundamental to supporting this long term um through you know the Witchery Write Show campaign.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Witchery's really put all of their um funds into early detection work.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: So um they'll also be the ones doing the announcement.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_05: So just so I understand, you're saying that that test is at the cusp of being implemented on the basis of what you've just outlined, which is pretty exciting and great uh progress.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um so the funding, you've had enough funding to get it to that point.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_05: To get it, yeah, to the point.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_05: And who would be eligible for that test?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_05: Or will it be used, as you mentioned, the women who have a bracogene?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Is that it no, so we're hoping to implement it in the greater population of women.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: So all women would be um able to use that test.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: We the clinical workup or the pre-clinical workup is done on that cohort of women that you can sort of you know get their ovaries as well and have a definite answer.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: So by looking at the ovaries, you can tell whether there's tumour or no tumour.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then you pair that with the test.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not the way that it would be in the normal situation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: In a normal situation, it would just be um the test.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: So when when do you anticipate this test will be available?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_05: In a year, we're talking two years, are we talking about I would say within the next two years, yeah.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_05: That's very exciting progress.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_05: Very exciting, yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_05: And will people, will doctors order that test if they're if people are symptomatic, or will everyone, you know, like we all get a breast screen or we all get a paps meeting?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_05: Is that how it will work?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Or you would you would hope that it would be something that you could implement in it as a part of routine screening, just for peace of mind um for women.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um you would hope so, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't actually know about the technicalities of implementing or commercializing and IPR.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_05: But the science is there, is what you're saying.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_05: There's great progress.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and great progress, but it's been a really long journey, like a long, you know, labor.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, some of the targets that we initially identified just didn't turn out to be accurate or just didn't turn out to work.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you make it sound like this smooth process, but it's been a long time coming.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there's lots of glaze underneath.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_05: I hear you.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's been a very arduous and very challenging process, and probably, you know, I suppose there's just a culmination of a lot of hard work.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think having women on the team has been part of the drive and clearly, as we referred to before, it clearly made sure that certain things were considered.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_05: But do you think that's really helped drive it into the onto the priority list?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I would say so.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I also am really um blessed to be surrounded by people that that want to make a difference.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone that's working here doesn't have um a motivation other than to see something that we see is not available, become available.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Does it make sense?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, totally.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_05: What you're saying is it's a combined effort between the men and women on the team and the entire institute, which is, and also making sure the funding there, which clearly the funding is now at a point that it's allowed this to get up and hopefully will um become available in the next two years.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_05: That is a phenomenal uh and very exciting development.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_05: So, Marie, you know, you mentioned that, you know, you developed a love of science and there were some people that inspired you on that journey.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_05: Tell me that little anecdote about you.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: Was it at university?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I was a um undergraduate trying to decide on whether I wanted to continue with research and do my honours and um no, actually, I was in my honours, sorry, I like I was in my honours trying to decide whether I wanted to continue with a PhD.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember a very heavily pregnant um clinician, amazing clinician that was starting her PhD also, had small children.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think maybe at the time there was two or three children, and she was pregnant with her fourth child.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, came in and gave her end of PhD seminar, and that was um Katie Allen, the Minister for Parliament.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, well, if this woman can be a clinician, do her PhD, raise four children, like what am I doing with my life?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I decided to stay on and um do a PhD.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I love that because it does show that as women we can really achieve so much, still have our children, and certainly in science and medicine, it it can sometimes deter people from that pathway.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_05: But as you've exemplified, and so has Katie.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh wow, imagine our world without people like you guys, you women, um you're both great contributors to the community.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_05: Tell me, do you think women as a rule, like, do we have enough understanding about our sexual health, about our well-being?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I know I have friends who've only just found out they've got endometriosis at 50.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_05: We tend to put ourselves last on the list, don't we?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_05: Like we just like, even though we do, you know, and I think also COVID is a lot of people have put off a lot of tests, which we which has been quite prevalent.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_05: People have just gone, I'll get round to it, sort of thing.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_05: Do you feel that we we're certainly better educated on one level, but I think we get busy, we get overwhelmed, and we just don't put ourselves first.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: Is that your impression?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, women, for sure.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're just so used to you're just so used to some of these things happening, you know, that you you do, you you put yourself last when it comes to family, you put yourself last when you have children.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: You put yourself last.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of the times the things that that are symptoms that play over very enhancer, you just dismiss as being symptoms of something else because your whole life you've been suffering from bloating, or your whole life you've suffered from you know these things that you might see as being nondescript, but might be an indicator of something far worse.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: And tell me, so so before this test is available in the next few years, what should what should women do to check this?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, is it a something they should just, is it something they can go to their GP and they can just feel their tummy and feel if it's okay, or is there something they need to do?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_05: Like what would you recommend?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: So there isn't anything that's available um currently.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: So you can obviously get a transvaginal ultrasound paired with a marker called CA125 and a blood test, but CA125 also comes up in other diseases such as endometriosis and that.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and if you have uh vaginal ultrasound, the tumor would have to be of the size that you'd be able to see it by imaging.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that's part of peace of mind, isn't it?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um but other than that, you know, majority of the women that I speak to that have ovarian cancer have just been persistent with, you know, saying something just doesn't feel right.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, and until then, you just you you need to go with what you feel in your body, I guess.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_05: Dr.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: Nikki Vincent was appointed as Victoria's first public sector gender equality commissioner in September 2020.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: She's responsible for overseeing the implementation of the Gender Equality Act and plays a key leadership role in promoting gender equality in the Victorian community and workplaces.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_05: She has a wealth of experience in gender equality and organisational leadership.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_05: This includes serving as the South Australian Commissioner for Equal Opportunity from 2016 to 2020.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_05: Now, I was reading something interesting this week.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um, speaking at CARN Film Festival this week, actress Andy McDowell reflected, I've been very fortunate to work with quite a few female directors, including Angelica Houston and Diane Keaton, just to name a few.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: But that is actually unusual.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_05: We just don't have the numbers.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_05: They keep saying we have a lot of women here, but we have five female directors out of 21.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: And until we have a ratio that is more balanced, we're really struggling.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_05: So my question to you is is this a reflection of the gender lens movement in general?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: And or do you think we really are seeing change and traction?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: Because clearly, obviously, in the arts, they're reasonably progressive.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_05: But I thought that was an interesting when I was reading that quote.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_05: I thought it's so true.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_05: So so many areas where we feel we're making progress.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: But I'd be interested in your perspective of whether you think we really are.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I well, yes, we are making progress, but it's incredibly slow progress.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I think um the World Economic Forum actually put out a figure recently which said that at the rate that we're going, it's going to take 135.6 years to close the gender gap worldwide.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, I'm not prepared to wait that long.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, really, that is really confronting, isn't it?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_05: When you see it, isn't it?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, there's so much um that's at play here.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: You, you know, when we um this the stereotyping about what girls do and what boys do starts from almost birth, even before birth.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um a lot of people are wanting to know whether they're having a boy or girl and they start to decorate the room and buy the toys and those sorts of things for whichever gender they're having.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, even if that doesn't happen, by the time kids go to you know, kindergarten or or school, there those gender stereotypes and gender norms are already at play and they influence us in ways that are very unconscious but it that are incredible every day.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a lot to deal with.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, and the what and all of that then plays out in the kinds of jobs that people select or are selected for, and the you know, not just the people themselves choosing um based on gender stereotypes, but how people picking people for those jobs, yes.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: When people step outside of those gender stereotypes, they're they're disadvantaged, there are all sorts of biases and um and other things that are at play to influence those outcomes.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a complex mix, but it is it, and all of that means, because there are so many of those um those complexities that influence that journey, that it that it's gonna be, it's it's slow.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And without intervention, without real intervention to deal uh with these things, we're not gonna see that change happening very quickly at all, hence the 135.6 years at the World Economic Forum.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_05: Which is really quite very very disturbing in the sense that really that's after there's been a very big global movement to put gender lens issues on the map.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_05: So you can only imagine how much further we were behind before that.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_05: And part of that movement is the appointment of yourself as the first gender equality commissioner in Victoria.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: Talk to me a little bit about what that role involves and how you're part of this, I suppose, exciting but challenging journey to put gender issues on the map and to certainly hopefully rebalance what has been a long-standing issue.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the first uh gender equality, public sector gender equality commissioner role.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a brand new role, it's a brand new piece of legislation.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we're implementing the Gender Equality Act, the first of its kind in Australia.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is different from I used to be the Equal Opportunity Commissioner for South Australia, where I oversaw the Equal Opportunity Act.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's different in that the Gender Equality Act applies to some 300 organisations.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: At this stage, it's in the public sector, so it's all of the public sector departments, but the broader public organizations as well, including all of local government and all the universities.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So some 420,000 people are covered, about 12% of the Victorian workforce.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it places a positive duty on those workplaces.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: They have to make real Reasonable and material progress towards gender equality and things like closing the gender pay gap, increasing the uptake of parental leave by men and caring leave by men, addressing things like biasing recruitment, so people are really appointed on the basis of merit and preventing sexual harassment and dealing with sexual harassment appropriately.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: So all of these organizations, and the legislation's got real teeth as well, I should say.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Transparency and teeth.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: So each of these organizations has to report to me every four years, they have to conduct a comprehensive audit around all of those things that I mentioned: pay, inequality, composition of the workforce, access to leave and so forth, caring leave and flexible work and so on.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they audit their own organizations and tell us about the state nature of gender equality or inequality in those organizations.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: They have to use that data to develop a comprehensive plan and they must make progress on that plan.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: All of that data and all of those plans are published so they are completely transparent.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: And anyone, once we publish this first lot of data that's um came to us recently, anyone will be able to search our portal, our platform to look at each organization and how they compare to others.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other really important responsibility is that they must put a gender lens, so do a gender impact assessment for every program, policy or service that they develop, the new policy program or service that has a direct and significant impact on the public.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: So everything government does, everything local government does, everything the universities do that is about having a public impact, which is an awful lot of what they do, will from last year on the um 31st of March last year and forever forward, while this legislation's in place, um, need a gender lens.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: It will require a gender lens and it need will need to be adjusted if it's not impacting fairly and equally people of different genders.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: So and the other thing is that they have to report on their progress to me every two years as well.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: I was going to say, so this is first of all, huge accountability, which has never ever been put on slate before at this level.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_05: It's pretty monolithic and it's pretty broad spectrum.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: So it means that as you say, obviously private sector is another discussion, but I'd be interested to talk to you about that as well.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: But but this is this is a massive shift in the way that it's being what you're trying to do, I gather, is to entrench these into the actual everyday running of these organizations so that they become so it becomes almost just part of the system.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we have a research agenda as well.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we're keeping track of how that's all going and monitoring that progress and helping organizations to get better.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so although um I have these compliance powers as well, the transparency is one, and and then if organizations fail to comply with the legislation, including making reasonable and material progress, I have to work with them.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't still don't make progress, I can issue compliance notice I can right up to um obviously naming and shaming, but also right up to taking them to um VCAT, uh Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal to get an order.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the the legislation has teeth, and it's it's the strongest teeth that I've ever seen in any sort of uh equal opportunity or uh legislation of this kind.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_05: So that's so it's not just yeah, theoretic.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's it's not theoretical, it is very, as you say, it's got teeth.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_05: And so are you meeting much resistance or or is it evident that because clearly this is as for for management for organizations, is it added cost?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_05: Is it which I assume there'd be elements of that which would impact what is the sort of the overall, and I know you're waiting to obviously publish data, etc.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_05: But what's the overall feedback so thus far?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I you know I got um trolled a bit when my appointment was announced, and I thought, oh goodness, this is gonna be you know tough going.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in government that sort of thing.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, the sort of things that a lot of um of of women in particular in my um in roles um in senior roles get, I guess.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but and in actual fact, there's been so much excitement, and women have been incredibly excited by this in in the areas that we're talking about, in the sectors that we're talking about, because I think they see it as an opportunity to make a real impact, you know, and so but but also a lot of men.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've I've hardly encountered any resistance at all.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then then I wonder, you know, the people I'm meeting, the people I'm talking to, they invite me to come and talk to them because they they they love this.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_05: They value what it is, yeah, what you're doing.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there might be pockets of resistance that I don't know about, and but they don't they're not coming to me and telling me uh so at this stage.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think that the tide's changed as uh you know, over the last couple of years.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in this job about 18 months now, and and I have seen that tide change over that time in terms of the interest and um the influence, I guess, of of the gender equality side of things um publicly.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_05: Well, it sort of is a movement.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_05: Like I was actually reading, I mean, there wouldn't be a week, let alone a day, where there wasn't a gender lens issue either in the paper or on social media.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's very prevalent, it's become very much at the forefront, and that in itself changes the dialogue and makes people sort of address it and go, what is that?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: And and what and how are we accountable?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: Whether you're, I mean, as you say, you're working in the public sector, but it's of obviously that's going to also impact the private sector who often work with the public sector.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_05: So they're they're being forced to look at what what's next for them, I suppose, if they haven't already implemented it.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the private a lot of the private people in the organisations in the private sector are already doing a lot of work in this regard.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had some private sector organizations say, well, we're can we voluntarily report to you?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we'd like to be a part of this.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And although we're not set up for that at the moment, that is definitely something that we we'd look to to do down the track.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: So um there is interest from the private sector.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of private sector organizations, the building, the construction sector, for example, absolutely can't get enough staff, et cetera, et cetera.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, it's an it's an absolutely economic imperative for them to um to get women on board, to do the jobs, to, you know, to fill the jobs and so forth.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a lot of interest in that regard throughout the private sector and the not-for-profit sector as well.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_05: The beauty pageant world is alive and well with more than four million followers on the Miss Universe Instagram site.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: It is interesting to explore the powerful platform, to see what it's advocating, to support female empowerment and development in 2022 with the dawn of a new era.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: So, who better to give us an insight than one of the recent winners of the Victorian Miss Universe pageant, Darcy Sphinx, who is competing for the title of Miss Universe Australia 2022.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's open doors for you.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it sounds to me like also you've learned a lot on your path.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: What's what's taken you out of your comfort zone?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think, look, something I didn't mention before.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a fun fact about me, I actually grew up on a farm.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't born into this modeling, uh, going to social events, networking lifestyle, I suppose.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was, I just made my way in there, and that's how I've gotten there.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've just kept pushing my boundaries.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that going to events and doing public speaking was not something that came naturally to me, and I shied away from it to begin with, especially back when I was 19.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was very shy and I was like, no, no, no, no one give me the microphone.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to sit back here.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But now, because I think, you know, back when I was 19, you had to uh do the public speaking.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of the competition.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: You have to go to the networking events.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of started, that's where it sort of started for me.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, from when I was 19 to now, when now that I'm 25, I've just continued doing it and gotten and gotten stronger and stronger by pushing my boundaries because I didn't enjoy it at the start.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I mentioned before, I was like, no, no, no, I don't want to do that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: But because I've continued to do it, I actually enjoy it now.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes me feel good.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's where my career is going.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love interviewing people, I love networking, I love going to events.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I love, I actually do love public speaking now.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm talking, I know.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_05: Well, obviously, it's interesting because you can I can hear from you your um enthusiasm that you're you're comfortable in that space.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_05: And that's something that you have learned on on this pathway.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: And whether you would have learned it anyway, who knows?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: But it sounds like the pageant space has been a really good opportunity for you to learn that.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And every girl that I've I have I've encountered by doing the competition says the same thing.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've loved the whole experience.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_05: And so, how do we ensure that we don't set impossible standards for young girls?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: And how has social media impacted the beauty pageant industry in terms of clearly there are measures that are about physical beauty, but as you say, that definition is very broad and broadening.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_05: So, how do we make sure that we send the right message and that young girls, you know, as you say, 18, 19, or even younger, don't feel those measures of beauty are the only form of assessing their value.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that even I struggle with this sometimes at being on social media because you're following so many people, and I feel like we put these unrealistic pressures on ourselves to be doing what those people are doing because everyone's posting their lives online and you're like, oh, that person's doing more than me, and you're constantly stressing yourself out and you know, running yourself into the ground.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that the positive side of social media is it does give young girls or like girls and boys, everyone, a chance to have a voice.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's how you use your platform.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel that, you know, by putting captions, like I'm doing positive captions and put sending out a positive message to young girls, especially.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I have a lot of young girls following me.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I post my modeling photos and I'm posting what I'm doing all the time, but I love to post positive quotes every now and then because I want I'm real and I want everyone to know that I'm real.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's the positive side of social media, and I think that that's how we should be using it, because you can get lost in the unrealisticness of it all.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, in the unreality of expectation.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_05: And I mean, look, I know, and as a mother of daughters, and yeah, I think the the complexity around that is something that's still unfolding and unraveling.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I think if if if Miss Universe becomes a platform for good and for for good messaging, as you've outlined, then that's great because I think the expectation around sizing and beauty and um all of those elements hopefully is changing, but it's slow and it's taking time.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um I suppose the real question is also who are these judges?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_05: How do they source them?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_05: Where do they come from and what it what are they looking for?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_05: You mentioned briefly what what in the beginning what they're looking for, but maybe in a little more detail, if you can tell me how how do they judge the pageants, you know, other than obviously being reasonably beautiful.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually interesting.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a journey for me to sort of unravel exactly what they're looking for because as I mentioned before, I've done the competition before, but now that I'm older, I can see it a lot more clearly.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And to answer your question, the judges are actually sponsors.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's quite a number, a number of sponsors that are involved in the competition.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And throughout the next few months, like we are to we create content and we're heavily involved with these sponsors.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they're all amazing.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's some really, really great sponsors.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I guess what they're judging us on, they're judging us on who we are, how we interact with people, if we can handle pressure, uh, you know, if we're to go on the morning show, how we would handle it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they, you know, they want to know that they can send someone into a networking event or into an interview and know that they can handle that and speak well and present well.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think ultimately they're looking for someone to represent the organization, you know, that's strong, that has a strong message, is confident, is kind, compassionate, all of those things.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge role, huge shoes to fill.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that, you know, there's some great girls that are uh that are in the competition this year.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've got some strong competition, but we're all, you know, we're all really happy and we want to represent our country.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's all about.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, you know, it's not just about what you look like, what we've spoken about before.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, a victorious secret model walking down the runway.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if you aren't kind, compassionate, driven, um, can speak and you know, all of these different things, they're not going to give you the crown because you're not going to, you know, you're not going to be able to fulfill the what they're wanting you to do.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a lot of, yeah, so I can hear what you're saying.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I think I suppose for you, what what do you see the crown should you win it, um, as giving you?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_05: What what what do you see it as an avenue to to because there's lots of ways, obviously you have a successful modeling career and you have your businesses, but there must be something in this that you see having yeah, potential.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I guess for me, it has honestly been a dream of mine ever since I was a little girl to be Miss Universe Australia.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I love my country, Australia, and I would love to be, you know, to represent my country on the international stage.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I do have a lot going on.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, you know, a big decision for me to come to come back and try one last time.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that I have worked really hard to get to where I am and to develop, you know, who I am today.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm incredibly passionate about business.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to be a voice and a leader for women in business.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love, I have actually hosted networking events in the past, bringing women together to share it, share stories and educate and inspire each other.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's why I would love to win, I suppose.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_05: Because I think it would give you that opportunity and that platform.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, tell me, do you think um so from your perspective, do you feel that the the capacity for whoever is Ms.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: Universe to open that dialogue and to change the dialogue around that?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_05: Because clearly there is a definite embracing of making sure that you can engage and speak and and conduct yourself at a much deeper level than, as you say, just looking a certain way.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_05: Do you think that person and the people judging it, are they also protecting the mental health of those that are involved?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_05: Is there a is there like a sense that you're being nurtured as well as clearly it's competition?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: So, but you know, that that's really important for a lot of these young women.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you're a little older in some ways, but still, you still have to be, you know, do you feel that you're getting that support?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: You honestly do get a lot of support.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, for your state, for example, Victoria, there's five girls that have gotten through, and then we all support each other as well because we're all coming together, we're working together, and we're building friendships and bonds together.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, that's the support system that I rely on.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the directors, Troy and Soph, they're so lovely and they really do support us.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's ultimately, they actually have a saying that it's um, what is their saying?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's something like it's not a pageant, it's a party.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's honestly just about having fun.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, we're going on a um national final trip in July.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about creating content, but it's actually going to be so much fun.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've done the national final trips before, and it's just we go out for dinners, we're um, you know, we we're going to be at movie world, we're going to go, I'd have no idea actually what they've got planned, but we've in the past, we've done some pretty amazing things and it's honestly so much fun.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not, it's not all serious.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I speak very seriously about it because I'm I'm passionate and I'm so excited to be involved.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because I'm older now, I know why I'm doing the competition.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was 19 doing the competition, like I wasn't trying to win.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was honestly just there for fun and I had so much fun.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's predominantly why all the girls are doing it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, there a lot of them do want to win.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, probably all of them want to win, but they're all having so much fun.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, if I don't win, I don't care because it's just the best experience.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're exposed to so many different sponsors.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's elevating your brand.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: So whether you win or you you lose, you walk away with a lot.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I can hear that.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you've got some great networks as well, and the sponsors clearly come on board.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_05: But but from what I'm hearing, there is a sense that you girls are all being looked after, and there's accountability, and there's a you know, which there never used to be.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's really important too, because as we know, young, beautiful girls, young girls of any sort can be very vulnerable.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_05: And that's that's probably the most important is that you're protected and you're nurtured and you're, you know.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you're probably getting that from, I don't know if you know much about the modeling industry for girls, but that's not as nurturing.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to compare them, like the pageants are actually where I would, you know, have gone straight for rather than modeling.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Modeling isn't nurturing, you know, you got you are exposed to so much, and that's you know, purely just about looks.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from a, you know, when I was a young girl, being exposed to that from a young age, that I've had some, you know, serious ups and downs.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I wouldn't be the person I am today if I hadn't been exposed to that at a at a young age because I went through it early and now I'm now I'm you know older and I'm I'm happy and I'm confident in who I am.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need to change anything about myself.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're a young girl in the modeling industry, it's it's it's not good because you just constantly want to be something else and you want to change yourself to try and fit this mold that you know, I don't know what the flavor of the month is, but you know, they're always looking for something in particular, so it's it's almost really hard.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: That's a very good point, actually, Darcy.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_05: I think that you've raised.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_05: And I have interviewed a lot of models on the podcast with in varying roles, and I think, yes, it's certainly something that is a work in progress.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_05: But what I what I can hear from you is that this is a great opportunity, and I'm really grateful for you coming on and talking so openly and honestly about the Miss Universe pageant and also about your journey, which really I'm very excited for you.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_05: And I wait with bated breath to hear how you do, and hopefully you'll keep us posted.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I will.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's very exciting.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: The competition isn't at like the national final isn't until September.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a little bit of time.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's like, I don't know, we're in June now.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like three months, June, July, August, September, four months or whatever it is, uh, until the national final.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a bit of prep time.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose that for me, that looks like just practicing question answers, uh, practicing how to handle pressure.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when you're on a stage, there's a quite a little bit of anxiety that can arise.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's learning how to handle that because I know that most people do live with a little bit of anxiety, or most people anxiety will arise when in those high pressure situations.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something I'm working on at the moment is learning how to sit with it and just acknowledge it, but not let it overtake me and overcome me.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast comes out every Tuesday for more fantastic stories from amazing guests.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Check out the What I've Learned Instagram for more updates.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as Deb would say, stay tuned, kind, and curious.