Latest / Speaking of Meaning / From Average to Great: Communication Tips for Leaders (ft. Kasim Hussain)

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From Average to Great: Communication Tips for Leaders (ft. Kasim Hussain) · Speaking of Meaning

0:02
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
0:04
SPEAKER_03: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
0:08
SPEAKER_03: build deeper relationships and create impact that matters.
0:13
I'm your host,
0:14
Ibrahim,
0:15
and I am a professional speaker,
0:17
soccer referee and leader.
0:19
SPEAKER_03: I love helping other people, and I also love to learn new things.
0:24
SPEAKER_03: This podcast is about better communication,
0:26
SPEAKER_03: greater impact at work,
0:29
SPEAKER_03: in your home,
0:30
SPEAKER_03: and in the world out there.
0:32
SPEAKER_03: Let's dive in.
0:33
SPEAKER_03: Enjoy the show.
0:42
SPEAKER_03: Today I'm joined by Kasim Hussain,
0:44
SPEAKER_03: a talented leader,
0:47
SPEAKER_03: and he is a director working in IT and IT transformations.
0:52
SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Kasim.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot, Ibrahim.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: I know you personally,
0:58
SPEAKER_03: and for the listeners who don't know who you are,
1:01
SPEAKER_03: can you tell us about your background and what it is that you do as well?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: So as you mentioned already, my name is Kasim.
1:10
I'm currently working in Deloitte in an internal IT department
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where I'm leading two teams.
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SPEAKER_00: The first team is IT transformation and the second one is IT projects.
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So basically me and my team are responsible for making sure
1:24
that we transition our
1:27
SPEAKER_00: local Nordic IT in the different Nordic countries to become one Nordic IT
1:32
SPEAKER_00: department.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Background wise, I have worked in startup in my early career.
1:36
Then I have also been a consultant working in a company called
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PA and also been in McKinsey.
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SPEAKER_00: And now this time around at Deloitte is actually my second round.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So I have been in Deloitte before where I had multiple roles,
1:50
SPEAKER_00: but the last one was actually head of strategy execution.
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SPEAKER_03: Have you always been interested in leadership and communication as well?
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually, I have.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: I think while I was in the startup,
2:03
SPEAKER_00: right,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: you probably know when you're in a startup,
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SPEAKER_00: you have a lot of hats on.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the hats that I had on was actually HR as well, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So I was part of hiring a lot of people,
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SPEAKER_00: making a lot of mistakes,
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SPEAKER_00: I will say,
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SPEAKER_00: along the way also.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that made me curious about leadership.
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SPEAKER_00: How do you get people to follow you?
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SPEAKER_00: That has always been my focus.
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SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to communication,
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I think that's just a curiosity of how can you actually be more
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effective in the
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way that you communicate to make sure that what you intended is
2:42
also what is
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SPEAKER_00: perceived.
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So I think both of the things have been something that I have
2:46
been focusing on in
2:48
SPEAKER_00: my early career,
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SPEAKER_00: for sure.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: And so right now you are responsible for the Nordic countries.
2:55
SPEAKER_03: That's huge.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's huge.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of cultural differences,
3:01
SPEAKER_00: which also means that you as a leader need to be mindful of what you say,
3:07
SPEAKER_00: how you say it,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because it has an impact.
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And I think we have a tendency to think that we are very
3:14
similar in the Nordic countries.
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SPEAKER_00: Of course,
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SPEAKER_00: there are things that we are very similar around,
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SPEAKER_00: but there is also differences,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And it's not easy to spot it if you are not being mindful of it.
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I used to live in Norway for a while and just how you
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communicate and the culture
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SPEAKER_03: is totally different than the culture and how we communicate in Sweden.
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SPEAKER_03: So I can imagine between Denmark,
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SPEAKER_03: Sweden,
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SPEAKER_03: Norway and other countries,
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SPEAKER_03: there is some cultural differences as well.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely, for sure.
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And I think the best way actually to address is to be
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transparent about it,
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right?
3:58
So if we are not being transparent about it,
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then it's very difficult to do anything about it.
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I think we should be able to create an environment where we
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actually encourage
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SPEAKER_00: people to speak up and be transparent.
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be okay with sharing how we are different and what people are
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saying actually having an impact.
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Sometimes it's a negative impact and sometimes it's a positive
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impact,
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right?
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SPEAKER_03: And our goal should be to have a positive impact, of course.
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SPEAKER_03: I remember one time when you told me,
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SPEAKER_03: Kasim,
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SPEAKER_03: that communication is important,
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SPEAKER_03: it's difficult,
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SPEAKER_03: and sometimes we take it for granted.
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SPEAKER_03: What do you mean by that, we take it for granted?
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SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: What I mean about that is actually it's an activity, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So it's an activity that we do every single day, right?
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Being at workplace,
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being at home,
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being with loved ones,
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family,
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whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: So it almost feels like it's a muscle memory, right?
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SPEAKER_00: That if somebody asks for something,
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you just immediately respond without thinking about what is it
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that you're saying
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SPEAKER_00: sometimes.
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SPEAKER_00: I compare it a little bit to like sometimes when you're driving your car,
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SPEAKER_00: you go from A to B and then you were like,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
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SPEAKER_00: how did I actually come from A to B,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: It's like the same thing when it comes to communication.
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SPEAKER_00: So we do it so frequently and we just basically...
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Don't stop and think and reflect on,
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so what we are saying,
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are we saying in the right way?
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Are we saying it in a way that is not judgmental,
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for example,
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and things like that,
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right?
5:36
So,
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and if we compare it to in a work setting,
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so we do communication in different ways,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: So we have presentations, we have meetings, right?
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SPEAKER_00: We are writing emails.
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And even when we are chatting with someone in the canteen,
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we are having a conversation,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: But I also think that maybe a lot can recognize that
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You have been in a meeting or you have read an email where you
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were actually left
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SPEAKER_00: with more questions than answers,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because the messages were so unclear.
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And what actually that leads to is that we have multiple
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iterations because we need
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SPEAKER_00: to understand,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And there is frustration in the process.
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SPEAKER_00: And then...
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SPEAKER_00: misunderstandings, right?
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So when you have the misunderstandings,
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that is very difficult to go back and fix that.
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SPEAKER_00: It takes a long time.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think for that alone, it's important to be mindful of
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SPEAKER_00: your communication skills, right?
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Because I think skills,
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SPEAKER_00: as I mentioned,
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SPEAKER_00: communication,
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SPEAKER_00: we take it for granted,
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SPEAKER_00: but communication is a skill.
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And every skill is something that you have to learn and then
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something that you
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SPEAKER_00: have to continuously nurture,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_03: There's a lot to unpack here.
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SPEAKER_03: I totally agree with you.
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SPEAKER_03: I think when it comes to misunderstandings,
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SPEAKER_03: once people have misunderstood each other,
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SPEAKER_03: it takes a lot of courage,
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a lot of time to go back and talk about things and fix things
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and just understand
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SPEAKER_03: each other.
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SPEAKER_03: And so being mindful of how you communicate is very important.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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SPEAKER_03: looking back in my own life,
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SPEAKER_03: what I have struggled is usually when I have been perhaps too emotional.
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Let's say when I'm giving feedback and there's so much to do
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and you're stressed
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SPEAKER_03: out,
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SPEAKER_03: perhaps you're emotional,
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SPEAKER_03: you need to stay on track.
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And so you give feedback and then it lands in the wrong way and
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the other person
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SPEAKER_03: now misunderstands the reason why you're giving feedback.
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SPEAKER_03: And so sometimes it's easy to be mindful of that when you are relaxed,
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SPEAKER_03: when you are trying to be rational.
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But when you are perhaps stressed out or you're emotional or
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when things are going
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SPEAKER_03: wrong,
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SPEAKER_03: that is the most difficult,
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but perhaps that is the most important time to be mindful at
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the same time.
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SPEAKER_00: Totally agree.
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SPEAKER_00: I think totally agree.
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I think you're spot on in terms of being emotionally invested
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in stuff is not
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SPEAKER_00: always a good starting point to communicate in an effective way,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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Because then you are already looking at things from a very
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specific angle,
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which is yourself.
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SPEAKER_00: So you're focusing on yourself and you're forgetting the audience, right?
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SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes.
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It's important to be mindful of what is it that you're trying
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to achieve when
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SPEAKER_00: you're communicating.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think we tend to think about our personal goals,
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but there are also an audience that are sitting there and
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listening to you and they
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SPEAKER_00: need to get something out of it as well.
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We need to be somehow put our emotions aside and think
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logically about communication.
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SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_03: And so what I've learned is timing is vital.
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So if you are,
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as you say,
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emotionally invested,
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then perhaps take a step back.
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SPEAKER_03: Don't send that email.
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SPEAKER_03: Today is Friday.
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SPEAKER_03: Send it on Monday.
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Don't call that person when you are too emotionally invested,
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angry,
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emotional.
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SPEAKER_03: Wait.
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SPEAKER_03: Let the heat cool down before you take action.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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But sometimes you don't even recognize that it's not a good
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time to send an email.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: Right?
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SPEAKER_03: Because it's an autopilot.
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: It's an autopilot.
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I think all of us would probably like to have a clean sheet
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with saying that now
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SPEAKER_00: we're going on a weekend,
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SPEAKER_00: we need to get everything out there,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: We don't want to wait until Monday.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where it becomes a challenge, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So how do you recognize your own bias, right?
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One of the things that you can do is actually to have a very
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healthy feedback
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SPEAKER_00: culture in your organization.
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Because if you are communicating in the way that you have used
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to do for a long
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time and people don't tell you anything about the impact or the
10:36
lack of impact you
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SPEAKER_00: are having with the words that you are saying,
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SPEAKER_00: then it's difficult to do anything about it.
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SPEAKER_00: That's why having a very healthy feedback culture is important.
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And then you mentioned giving feedback and then you give the
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feedback and people
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SPEAKER_00: don't get the feedback as you intended.
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SPEAKER_00: We need to have some guidelines on how we give feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: And the guidelines should be agreed from both sides,
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the one that is giving the feedback and the one that is
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receiving the feedback,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Because if you are not doing that,
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SPEAKER_00: then we have a tendency to focus on the negative things all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: Every time we give feedback, we are focusing on what went wrong.
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But I think it's even more important to give feedback when
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things go right.
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SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
11:26
Because when things go right and you give feedback and you
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agree on the condition
11:31
SPEAKER_00: of the feedback,
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SPEAKER_00: then you will have a team member that is fully motivated.
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But if you keep giving feedback when your team members are
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doing something wrong,
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SPEAKER_00: then I will guarantee you,
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SPEAKER_00: you will have a team member that is demotivated.
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SPEAKER_00: Right?
11:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So basically create a culture where you give feedback and you
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agree upon how to
12:00
SPEAKER_03: give feedback,
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SPEAKER_03: how to receive feedback,
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SPEAKER_03: but also give feedback even when somebody's doing something right.
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Because usually I'm used to people giving me feedback when I
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look back at when I
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SPEAKER_03: used to work in the corporate world.
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We gave each other feedback every time something went wrong and
12:17
almost never when
12:17
SPEAKER_03: something went right.
12:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's not a healthy feedback culture, right?
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Because then you almost have like people having opportunistic
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behavior,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: They will always give you feedback to,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying look down on you,
12:37
SPEAKER_00: but they will just give it,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: you're not there for the team spirit.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: You're not there for lifting people, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because it has a totally different impact.
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I'm not saying that you should not give feedback if people are
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not doing something
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SPEAKER_00: that they should do.
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SPEAKER_00: But we need to give constructive feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: That's what we talked about for centuries,
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I was about to say,
13:03
SPEAKER_00: but it's important to give constructive feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: But what we tend to do is,
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SPEAKER_00: because we are operating a very fast-paced environment,
13:13
that we give feedback and then we're only focusing on what are
13:16
the challenges.
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SPEAKER_03: We focus only on the negative things.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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But I like that feedback culture where we all agree how we
13:28
should give feedback and
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SPEAKER_03: how we should take the feedback we get.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03: And if we agree on that, then this is our deal.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I think what it allows is
13:44
SPEAKER_00: to make it more comfortable to give feedback, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because one thing is to receive feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: Another thing is to give feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think both of it can be very challenging.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not that we feel encouraged to give,
13:59
SPEAKER_00: when have you give feedback to your leader,
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SPEAKER_00: for example,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Immediate leader, when have you give feedback?
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think a lot of people actually do so because it's hard.
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SPEAKER_00: It's hard to do so.
14:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's hard.
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SPEAKER_03: Maybe the leader is not inviting others.
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SPEAKER_03: So let's say I give you feedback today and you react with anger,
14:23
SPEAKER_03: with fear,
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SPEAKER_03: with bitterness,
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then I'm going to be cautious to give you feedback because you
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are my leader or my
14:31
SPEAKER_03: colleague,
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SPEAKER_03: for instance.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Definitely, definitely.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is where it helps to have clear guidelines,
14:40
SPEAKER_00: have a clear structure of how do we give feedback.
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SPEAKER_00: This is the framework we use for giving feedback.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: You know exactly what to expect, right?
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's even the playing field, right?
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And it also makes sure that the ones that are not good in
14:57
giving feedback now have
14:58
SPEAKER_00: a way of giving good feedback.
15:01
SPEAKER_03: So Kasim,
15:01
SPEAKER_03: we've talked about guidelines,
15:03
creating a culture where we all agree on how we should give
15:08
each other feedback.
15:10
SPEAKER_03: And I think that we can have the guidelines,
15:13
SPEAKER_03: we can have the culture,
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SPEAKER_03: but if I'm not comfortable giving feedback,
15:18
SPEAKER_03: then I'm not going to create the change I would like to see.
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SPEAKER_03: So my question to you is, how can we have courage to give feedback?
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SPEAKER_00: So creating a psychological safety in your team is important.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And basically that's about making sure that you include all, right?
15:43
You create the space so people feel that they are heard and
15:47
they can contribute
15:49
SPEAKER_00: without being judged,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: right?
15:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's what's important for you as a leader.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
15:57
SPEAKER_03: So for people to feel that I feel safe here in this environment.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: This is crucial.
16:07
SPEAKER_03: This is crucial.
16:09
And I think another point is actually when it comes to
16:14
conflicts,
16:15
for example,
16:15
right?
16:16
We tend to think that conflicts are bad,
16:20
but conflicts can be really good.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:24
So how the conflicts can be good if you are having healthy
16:29
conflicts in your team.
16:32
And that is where people can have different opinions,
16:37
again,
16:38
without being judged.
16:39
And people feel that they can come up with different opinions
16:44
because you create
16:44
SPEAKER_00: the space for them to do so.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: And one more thing where you actually,
16:50
SPEAKER_00: the talents,
16:51
SPEAKER_00: the team members can challenge the leader,
16:54
SPEAKER_00: right?
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Without the leader taking it personally.
16:58
Because in the end of the day,
17:00
we are here to create the most value as possible as a team.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think we should encourage people to be opinionated about things.
17:10
And then we should create,
17:12
again,
17:12
the space for them to do so without us judging.
17:16
And you should,
17:17
as a leader,
17:18
call out if people are starting to get personal,
17:21
right?
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Because then you are also recognizing that now they are actually...
17:29
SPEAKER_00: We are not now having a healthy conflict here.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: What we are having now is a personal conflict.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's the difference, right?
17:36
So we want to move away from having personal conflict to have
17:39
healthy conflicts.
17:42
SPEAKER_03: Healthy conflict where we discuss the issues, how to move forward.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: And once we agree on which path to take, everybody is on board.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: And it could also be that you are not on board with the decision.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: You still feel that the decision that is being made is not the right one.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: But when we leave the room, we are all in the same ship.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: Right?
18:07
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: And we are more likely to do so if we feel respected,
18:13
SPEAKER_03: valued,
18:15
SPEAKER_03: heard,
18:16
SPEAKER_03: or like you say it,
18:17
SPEAKER_03: the psychological safety.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: This is great advice, Kasim.
18:23
SPEAKER_03: You told me one time that a leader has two responsibilities.
18:30
SPEAKER_03: Number one is motivating the team.
18:34
SPEAKER_03: And number two is leading upwards.
18:40
SPEAKER_03: Now, how do you as a leader
18:43
handle the different ways to communicate number one with your
18:48
teams where you have
18:48
to motivate them and number two with senior leadership to lead
18:52
upwards of course
18:54
you have more responsibility as a leader but one is of course
18:58
to make sure that you
18:59
are able to motivate your team right you're able to motivate
19:02
your team set clear
19:03
SPEAKER_00: directions and making sure that
19:07
SPEAKER_00: everybody actually understand what is expected of them, right?
19:11
The second thing is that we as leaders should also be able to
19:17
communicate upwards.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: And what do I mean about that?
19:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean about building trust with senior stakeholders, right?
19:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So, and the senior stakeholders, they feel...
19:32
SPEAKER_00: that you and your team are able to deliver on the goals, right?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: They trust you, basically, right?
19:39
SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to the first one, where you, how can you do that?
19:43
SPEAKER_00: How can you motivate your team?
19:45
And how can you make sure that the way that you communicate is
19:49
something that...
19:53
bring the team closer so to speak and don't divide the team
19:58
right and I think I
20:00
already mentioned one of them which is the psychological safety
20:03
right that is one
20:05
SPEAKER_00: thing because that is I will see that is a fundamental thing right
20:10
SPEAKER_00: that you need to have that fundamental thing in place.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And it takes time.
20:15
And you cannot just expect from one day to another that you
20:17
have to create a
20:18
SPEAKER_00: psychological safety.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: That's not how it works.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: But then there's other things that you as a leader that...
20:26
you are able to convey your message in a way that is well
20:32
understood,
20:33
right?
20:34
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds easy.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm saying, yes, you should do A and B. That's not what I mean.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, sometimes we need to...
20:42
SPEAKER_00: give more transparency of why are we going from A to B, right?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Why is this important?
20:49
SPEAKER_00: What would it mean for you, for me, for the team?
20:53
SPEAKER_00: So people get that understanding, right?
20:56
Sometimes we need to connect the dots and that is where it's
20:59
really important that
21:00
SPEAKER_00: you as a leader are able to communicate that in a very effective way.
21:07
SPEAKER_03: It seems like we always go back to trust and
21:12
SPEAKER_03: And communication.
21:16
Yeah,
21:17
and I think now we have talked a lot about verbal
21:19
communication,
21:20
right?
21:21
SPEAKER_00: It's not only about the words that you put out.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: It's also about what are you doing in the meeting, for example.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: How are you sitting?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: How are you listening, right?
21:32
SPEAKER_00: And one thing is active listening.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: So as a leader, that is a crucial skill that you need to learn.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
21:42
You need to learn to listen and listen a little bit more and
21:46
listen again,
21:47
right?
21:48
Because what we have a tendency to think that we as a leader
21:52
should come up with
21:53
SPEAKER_00: all the answers to the questions.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's not correct.
21:57
What we need to do is to make sure that we as a whole come up
22:03
with the best solution to things.
22:05
And the one way to do so is to listen and listen to words that
22:09
have been said and
22:10
SPEAKER_00: then challenge those things.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: So active listening,
22:14
SPEAKER_03: is that in your opinion,
22:16
is the difference between what separates great leaders from
22:21
average leaders?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a big question.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: I think definitely that is something that I feel is lacking.
22:32
When I now have been in a lot of different settings and I feel
22:36
like the active
22:38
SPEAKER_00: listening is something that is missing because what I recognize is
22:44
SPEAKER_00: When you are in a meeting,
22:46
then let's just say I'm sitting there with senior stakeholders
22:50
and then I'm trying
22:51
SPEAKER_00: to say something.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I can immediately see if a senior stakeholder is,
22:56
SPEAKER_00: or it could be a team member or whatever,
22:57
but if somebody is actually already thinking about what they
23:02
should say and not
23:03
SPEAKER_00: listening to what I'm saying,
23:05
SPEAKER_00: right?
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's usually what happens,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: that we are so much focusing on our own answers,
23:13
SPEAKER_00: on our own narrative,
23:15
SPEAKER_00: and that we forget that we should also listen.
23:21
And not just listen,
23:22
but actively listen,
23:24
really take in what the other person is feeling.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: Because for me, this is what empathy is all about.
23:31
SPEAKER_03: Empathy is not about agreeing with the person.
23:35
SPEAKER_03: but more understanding where they're coming from.
23:38
SPEAKER_03: And if I'm going to understand where you're coming from,
23:42
I have to make you feel that I have listened and you feel that
23:48
you are also being
23:49
SPEAKER_03: seen,
23:50
SPEAKER_03: valued,
23:50
SPEAKER_03: and heard.
23:51
SPEAKER_03: Again, psychological safety, I guess.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I agree on that.
23:58
I think a lot of the big organizations have now understood the
24:02
value of diversity,
24:04
right?
24:04
SPEAKER_00: So we have,
24:06
SPEAKER_00: if you go to a big organization,
24:08
SPEAKER_00: you will see a lot of people with different nationalities,
24:13
SPEAKER_00: cultural background,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: all these kinds of things.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: But I think there's one thing we forget.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Diversity is not enough if you are not creating an inclusive environment.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Right?
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's okay to put in reports that we have so many females,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: males,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: people with this educational background,
24:33
SPEAKER_00: but are we creating equal opportunities for all?
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Right?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: So if you look at the senior leadership,
24:43
do you recognize yourself when you're having a meeting with the
24:48
senior leadership?
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel that you're being represented in that forum?
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Right?
24:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is where we are still missing things.
24:58
And the reason I'm bringing this up is because if we don't
25:02
balance that as well,
25:05
I think we will have a challenge in creating this inclusive and
25:13
psychological
25:14
SPEAKER_00: safety environment,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: right?
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Because then you are not paying attention.
25:18
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
25:21
So are you saying we should invest in diversity and have
25:28
diverse workplaces in
25:31
SPEAKER_03: order for people to feel seen,
25:34
SPEAKER_03: heard and valued?
25:37
I think companies are already recognizing that diversity is a
25:41
value,
25:42
right?
25:43
It's something that we should focus on because it gives
25:45
different perspective on
25:47
SPEAKER_00: problem solving.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: It gives different perspective on culture and et cetera, et cetera.
25:55
I think we need to take it further to focus on how the
26:01
inclusion part,
26:02
right?
26:03
SPEAKER_00: And in order to understand the inclusion part,
26:05
SPEAKER_00: we also need to understand the culture,
26:08
SPEAKER_00: the diversity we have in our organization,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: right?
26:12
SPEAKER_00: So what does it mean when I say this and I have a person that is from,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Norway,
26:23
SPEAKER_00: India,
26:24
SPEAKER_00: or it could be a lot of different places.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Because I think, for example, people say that Danes are very direct.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: Right?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: And if you are very direct,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: and for example,
26:37
SPEAKER_00: in other cultures when you are not being that direct...
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Then it can have a huge impact,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: right,
26:44
SPEAKER_00: on the one that you are having this directness with,
26:48
SPEAKER_00: right?
26:49
So I think we need to focus on how do we create more inclusive
26:55
environments in our organization.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: Diversity is so broad, Kazim.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:04
Do you think we need to hire more people from different
27:10
backgrounds and so forth in
27:14
SPEAKER_03: order for companies to achieve their full potential?
27:17
SPEAKER_03: Or do you see a lack of diversity in leadership?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
27:28
I think we have a tendency when we talk about diversity to
27:32
focus on male and
27:33
SPEAKER_00: female,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: because that is something that we can measure,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: right?
27:35
We can say we have so many percentage of female and so many
27:39
percentage of males.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: For me, that diversity is much more.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: It's much more.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: And if we want to...
27:46
get the full potential of diversity,
27:48
we need to look at it from a broader perspective,
27:51
right?
27:52
SPEAKER_00: We need to look at it from people with different educational backgrounds.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: We need to look at it from people with different cultural backgrounds,
28:01
SPEAKER_00: nationalities,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: and all these things.
28:03
Because I think that is where you are utilizing the full
28:08
spectrum of diversity,
28:11
right?
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And I think you really need to,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: your organization basically should represent the society you live in.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Because we are very diverse in the society, right?
28:28
So I think important that our organization to some extent also
28:33
represent that.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
28:37
And do you think that people should be hired based on their
28:42
qualifications?
28:46
Or are we talking about hiring for optics in order to create
28:52
that image that we
28:53
SPEAKER_03: have achieved diversity?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: We should, of course, hire people for their skills.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: I think definitely we should do that.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a big fan of Quotos,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: but at the same time,
29:05
it is also very difficult to encourage organizations to do so
29:11
if they are not used
29:12
SPEAKER_00: to do it.
29:12
And sometimes quotas is the easiest way because then it's very
29:17
tangible,
29:17
right?
29:19
We are hiring a female or male or this person with this
29:23
background,
29:23
et cetera.
29:24
But I'm actually more fan of we hire people based on their
29:29
qualifications.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest,
29:33
SPEAKER_00: I think it is possible to hire people based on their qualifications,
29:38
SPEAKER_00: representing different diverse...
29:41
SPEAKER_00: you know, capabilities, for example.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: So I don't think it's such an issue.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: You just need to broaden your horizon, right?
29:53
SPEAKER_00: And see, okay, there are possibilities in just male and female.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: Broaden your perspective.
30:00
And also when you hire,
30:03
I think there's a tendency to hire people who reminds us of who
30:07
we are.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:09
SPEAKER_03: We hire people who are like us.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:13
SPEAKER_03: And this is not because you're a bad person or an evil person.
30:17
SPEAKER_03: It's just how human nature really is.
30:22
And so we need to be aware of that and create that awareness in
30:26
our organization.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, true.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Because it feels more safe, right?
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:36
It feels more safe to hire someone that you look like or that
30:41
you think alike.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's the easy way out.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: It is.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And it might be helpful for you in the short term.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: But in the long term,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I think if you don't get diversity inclusion right,
30:59
SPEAKER_00: it could be a challenge for your organization,
31:04
SPEAKER_00: basically.
31:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: So basically what we are talking about here is,
31:09
SPEAKER_03: and this is also what I think,
31:13
SPEAKER_03: is to create a level playing field for everybody.
31:18
SPEAKER_03: Irrespective of your background,
31:20
SPEAKER_03: culture,
31:21
SPEAKER_03: if you're male,
31:22
SPEAKER_03: female,
31:23
SPEAKER_03: and so forth,
31:24
SPEAKER_03: creating a level playing field for everybody.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: An inclusive environment for everyone.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think we should get to a state where we don't think about it.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: We just do it.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: So we are not having,
31:40
SPEAKER_00: we just do it because we are,
31:42
it's just so natural now that it's not something that we have
31:46
to think about all
31:47
SPEAKER_00: the time.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think we are not there yet.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think it will take some time to get there.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: But,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: having conversation or how many people should we hire from this education
32:01
SPEAKER_00: background or from this,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: nationality and all these kind of things.
32:07
I think we should get to a place where we just hire based on
32:11
skills,
32:11
but...
32:13
SPEAKER_00: at the same time it ensures that we have a diverse workforce and we as an
32:19
organization are creating an inclusive environment where all
32:25
people feel that they
32:28
SPEAKER_00: can
32:29
SPEAKER_00: they can be the best version of themselves, right?
32:32
SPEAKER_03: And try.
32:33
If we talk about communication and how complicated and
32:39
difficult and how hard it
32:40
SPEAKER_03: can be sometimes,
32:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
32:42
SPEAKER_03: we live in a fast paced world,
32:45
SPEAKER_03: a lot of emotions.
32:47
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we're afraid to give feedback.
32:49
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes there are conflicts.
32:52
SPEAKER_03: What do you think is the biggest barrier
32:56
SPEAKER_03: in the workplace in this age?
33:00
SPEAKER_00: I think it's hard to point on one single thing, but...
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Especially in Denmark,
33:07
SPEAKER_00: for example,
33:08
we don't have this early training in how to communicate in an
33:12
effective way.
33:14
So in my school time,
33:15
for example,
33:16
I was not taught how to communicate effectively,
33:19
right?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: It's usually a skill that we build and refine through our careers, right?
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's, of course, one of the things.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: And as it is with everything that if it becomes a habit,
33:33
it's very difficult to change a habit because you have to
33:36
unlearn a lot of things,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: right?
33:39
SPEAKER_00: In order to get it right.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's more safe just to do what you are used to do, right?
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: And then,
33:47
SPEAKER_00: of course,
33:48
SPEAKER_00: at the same time,
33:48
you mentioned already that we are operating in a very
33:51
fast-paced environment,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: especially as leaders,
33:54
SPEAKER_00: that we are jumping from one meeting to another.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: That is very easy to go into autopilot, right?
34:01
Just do the stuff that we are used to do,
34:03
communicate in the same way that we are used to do.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it feels like we don't have the time to stop,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: reflect,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: and put real thought into how we are saying things,
34:16
SPEAKER_00: right?
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's different elements to it.
34:20
And I think one of the other things that we also talked a
34:22
little bit about is our
34:23
SPEAKER_00: own bias,
34:24
SPEAKER_00: right?
34:25
SPEAKER_00: So our own bias in terms of if we don't have,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: for example,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: a healthy feedback culture,
34:33
SPEAKER_00: then you are just communicating in the way that you are.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: And people are not telling you.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: the impact or the lack of impact that you're having with your words,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: it's very difficult to know that you need to do something else.
34:48
And I think probably why people don't want to say anything to
34:52
you is that you are
34:53
SPEAKER_00: not inviting them to give you that feedback as well,
34:56
SPEAKER_00: right?
34:59
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot of different layers into that.
35:02
And then we talked about diversity,
35:04
which again plays a very huge part in this,
35:07
right?
35:07
SPEAKER_00: That we have...
35:09
SPEAKER_00: cultural and language differences, right?
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And that also creates a barrier.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: So if you're like my native language is not English, right?
35:21
And to me,
35:22
it can also be very hard sometimes to explain things as I would
35:27
do in Danish,
35:27
right?
35:28
SPEAKER_00: And then it maybe can sometimes come across as being very
35:32
uh impatient or very direct even more direct when i'm speaking
35:37
in danish right so i
35:38
think those are the things that we need to be mindful of um and
35:44
then uh you know
35:46
the emotions we also talked about that emotions we bring our
35:50
emotions into meetings
35:52
SPEAKER_00: into our emails uh and and that is something that um
35:59
SPEAKER_00: make us lose our objectivity, I would say so.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: So how do we not involve emotions when we communicate,
36:13
SPEAKER_03: when we make an important decision,
36:15
SPEAKER_03: when we go into that meeting?
36:21
SPEAKER_03: Because to me, that sounds difficult to do sometimes.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's why you need support.
36:26
If you feel it's difficult,
36:28
you should have an alliance at your workplace.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: Somebody you trust, somebody that you can say, hey, I have this email.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Can you please read it?
36:41
SPEAKER_00: And what do you think?
36:42
SPEAKER_00: What is the feeling you get when you read this?
36:45
SPEAKER_00: And then you get the immediate response of that, right?
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And then you can adjust it along the way.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: And today we have other tools like AI tools.
36:55
You can put it in and say,
36:57
I want to make sure that I'm communicating this in this way.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: What do you think, right?
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's good to just get that feeling, right?
37:05
SPEAKER_00: Am I heading in the right direction or not?
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's more like with the email.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think when you are,
37:10
SPEAKER_00: for example,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: in a meeting,
37:12
SPEAKER_00: I think then it's very important to pay attention.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: not to only what is being said, also to what is not being said.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: How are people reacting when you are saying something?
37:25
SPEAKER_00: What is their body language?
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Are they sitting like this?
37:28
SPEAKER_00: Are they not?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Are they engaged?
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Are they looking at the computer now and start typing?
37:33
SPEAKER_00: So I think you need to pay attention to that because if you're seeing...
37:37
Because you can end up being even more frustrated in the
37:40
meeting because you're
37:41
SPEAKER_00: already bringing emotion into the meeting.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: And then you assume people are not engaged.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And then that could create even more irritation and frustrations, right?
37:50
SPEAKER_00: So you need to be able to scan and adapt within the environment.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's difficult.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: It is very, very difficult to do so.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
38:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's well said.
38:07
I think like you say,
38:09
Kasim,
38:10
you have to have the ability to be able to read a room.
38:16
SPEAKER_03: And so that means that you can't be up in your head.
38:19
You have to be present in order to be able to read the room and
38:24
also be flexible and adapt.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Especially if you are giving a presentation,
38:30
SPEAKER_03: for instance,
38:30
SPEAKER_03: and you are on the stage,
38:32
SPEAKER_03: if you're too nervous,
38:33
SPEAKER_03: if you are too much focused on what you're saying,
38:36
SPEAKER_03: how you look like,
38:37
SPEAKER_03: if they will like you or not,
38:39
SPEAKER_03: you're not present.
38:41
SPEAKER_03: And you're not going to see those facial expressions,
38:43
SPEAKER_03: the body language,
38:45
SPEAKER_03: if people are tired or not.
38:48
So basically presence and being able to read a room and be
38:54
comfortable with who you
38:55
SPEAKER_03: are as a leader.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the key thing is what you said,
39:07
SPEAKER_00: lastly,
39:07
SPEAKER_00: was that being yourself,
39:09
SPEAKER_00: we need to be ourselves.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think now I've been working as a consultant as well, right?
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Where I saw a tendency of people actually not being themselves.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: So they are trying to be somebody else.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: So when you went into the meeting, you can immediately see, okay,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, why is he now acting like this, right?
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I know him like this.
39:33
So I think it's important,
39:35
and especially in consultancy,
39:36
it's a people's game,
39:38
right?
39:38
SPEAKER_00: And people are really good in reading each other.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: So you need to be yourself.
39:44
And if you are not being yourself,
39:46
then it's easy to spot,
39:50
I would say so.
39:52
SPEAKER_03: I agree with you.
39:53
SPEAKER_03: It is easy to spot.
39:55
SPEAKER_03: It's definitely not attractive.
39:58
SPEAKER_03: And it's definitely not going to help you at all.
40:03
This problem is common because we often hear you should fake it
40:08
until you make it.
40:10
SPEAKER_03: And I've made a video about it.
40:12
SPEAKER_03: I don't think you should fake anything.
40:14
SPEAKER_03: I think instead,
40:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember who it was who said it,
40:18
SPEAKER_03: but you should do it until you become it.
40:23
SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't fake your emotions.
40:24
You shouldn't fake anything because I have more respect for you
40:29
and for somebody
40:29
SPEAKER_03: who says,
40:30
SPEAKER_03: hey,
40:31
SPEAKER_03: I'm actually a little bit nervous.
40:33
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what I'm doing.
40:35
but we're going to figure it out than somebody who is
40:38
pretending to be comfortable,
40:41
who is pretending to know something they don't know or to be
40:44
somebody they're not.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: I think don't fake anything.
40:48
SPEAKER_03: Instead, just be yourself.
40:49
SPEAKER_03: If you're afraid, say you're afraid.
40:51
SPEAKER_03: If you're nervous,
40:52
say you're nervous because emotions are contagious and we can
41:00
feel it when somebody
41:01
SPEAKER_03: is not being genuine.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: And so my advice is always be yourself.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: Great advice.
41:09
SPEAKER_03: Great advice here, Kasim.
41:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: Kasim,
41:13
SPEAKER_03: you told me one time that when you prepare,
41:18
SPEAKER_03: for instance,
41:20
SPEAKER_03: a meeting,
41:20
SPEAKER_03: a conversation,
41:22
SPEAKER_03: when you're preparing a communications plan and so forth,
41:26
SPEAKER_03: always have a plan B.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
41:30
Can you tell me why and also share with us a time you had a
41:37
plan B that you had to
41:41
SPEAKER_03: use or implement?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: I think usually the plan B goes for the longer meetings,
41:52
SPEAKER_00: work meetings,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: it could be workshops and stuff like that,
41:55
SPEAKER_00: right?
41:57
SPEAKER_00: And what I mean about having a plan B is to be flexible, right?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: To be flexible, to adapt to the environment that you are in.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: And...
42:08
SPEAKER_00: We,
42:09
SPEAKER_00: and I think the good,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: let me give you an example when it comes to workshop,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: for example,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: right?
42:14
SPEAKER_00: So I have done a lot of workshops.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: And in the beginning, I was so strict with my agenda.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: I put it in and,
42:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:21
there's even not time to breathe in between the different
42:24
things that needs to be
42:25
SPEAKER_00: solved for and the exercise and et cetera.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: But then I realized that I was not getting...
42:35
SPEAKER_00: I was not getting what I wanted out of the workshops, right?
42:39
SPEAKER_00: So I was sometimes even more confused.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: And what actually happens was the audience feel the same thing.
42:45
And sometimes it can lead to people feeling I'm wasting my time
42:48
in a full day workshop.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: So I started to, you know, change my strategy, so to speak.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean I didn't prepare.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I still prepared, you know, let's say that I have a full day workshop.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: I know the agenda points, what needs to be in there.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: What is the exercise?
43:05
I really think about what is the minimum thing that I need to
43:09
get out of this workshop,
43:11
right?
43:12
SPEAKER_00: So I structure it in a way that I put that first in the agenda.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: So I want to make sure we get through that.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Then maybe one third of the day is where I allow for flexibility.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that I haven't points in the agenda.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: It means that those points are flexible.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: I can adjust it.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: So what I usually do is that when the conversation moves, right?
43:38
And I can see that you think you have thought about everything,
43:41
but you have not,
43:42
right?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Because in the workshop, you realize things that are important.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: And then you need to figure out, okay, this is important.
43:49
I haven't thought about this,
43:51
but I want to include it to have really good conversations.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: And the output is going to be really good, right?
43:58
SPEAKER_00: So what I do is usually have a long break, lunch break.
44:03
And then based on the first conversations,
44:06
I actually adapt the agenda towards that,
44:09
right?
44:10
So it doesn't necessarily mean that I have a plan B in mind,
44:14
what needs to be done.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I do, but my plan B is to adjust the agenda if it's needed.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: So, and I think...
44:24
That's really important because what you're doing here is
44:28
recognizing what is being
44:30
SPEAKER_00: set in the moment,
44:33
SPEAKER_00: right?
44:33
SPEAKER_00: And you are actually actively listening to what is being said.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: And then you take that...
44:40
SPEAKER_00: And then you utilize it in the room.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I'm being very transparent and say,
44:46
SPEAKER_00: hey,
44:46
SPEAKER_00: guys,
44:47
SPEAKER_00: we have realized something here that we didn't think about.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: And this is really, really important.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: For that reason, I have adjusted the agenda to this.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Do you agree?
44:57
SPEAKER_00: And then people say, yes, of course.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:00
And people are happy and they're even more engaged because you
45:03
have listened.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: And now they feel, okay, we are getting somewhere, right?
45:11
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one of the way of thinking about having a plan B.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: So sounds like it's a prerequisite to be flexible,
45:26
SPEAKER_03: to be comfortable,
45:27
SPEAKER_03: to be able to read the room.
45:31
SPEAKER_03: and also have knowledge about what it is you're doing.
45:36
SPEAKER_03: Because if I remember my own experience,
45:38
SPEAKER_03: when I started 15,
45:41
SPEAKER_03: 16 years ago,
45:42
SPEAKER_03: giving workshops and speeches,
45:45
SPEAKER_03: because I wasn't comfortable,
45:48
SPEAKER_03: I was more rigid.
45:51
SPEAKER_03: But the more I did it,
45:53
SPEAKER_03: the more knowledge I acquired,
45:55
SPEAKER_03: I was able to be more flexible and adapt along the way.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: And I can also imagine that how you communicate that change to the group,
46:09
SPEAKER_03: because now you have identified moving forward,
46:13
SPEAKER_03: this is what we need and we're going to change the agenda.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: And then you communicate it in a way that they actually accept it.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think the acceptance here is important, right?
46:30
SPEAKER_00: Because if you just,
46:31
let's just say that you read the room incorrectly and then you
46:36
change the agenda
46:38
SPEAKER_00: and then you just don't,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: get the acceptance,
46:42
SPEAKER_00: then you are doing it even worse,
46:45
SPEAKER_00: right?
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Then you're firstly,
46:46
you are adapting your agenda to something that is not correct
46:51
because you didn't
46:52
SPEAKER_00: read the room in a correct way.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: which will mean that people will be more frustrated and unengaged.
46:58
But what you're allowing is that when you're asking for
47:02
acceptance is that if
47:03
SPEAKER_00: people don't agree,
47:04
SPEAKER_00: they will say it.
47:06
And that's totally fine because we are here together as a
47:10
cohesive team that we
47:12
SPEAKER_00: want to get the best out of this workshop.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: That's why we are gathered today, right?
47:19
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's an important one.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: We've been sitting for a while and I know our time is running out.
47:25
SPEAKER_03: So I want to ask you a few more questions, Kasim.
47:28
SPEAKER_03: This is about framework and tools.
47:32
You mentioned one time when I was talking to you about a
47:36
framework called SCQA.
47:42
SPEAKER_03: Can you tell us what that is?
47:45
CQA,
47:46
as you mentioned,
47:47
is a well-known framework usually used by consultants.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: So the S stands for situation,
47:56
SPEAKER_00: the C stands for complication,
47:57
SPEAKER_00: and the Q stands for question,
47:59
SPEAKER_00: and the A stands for answer.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's actually built on something called the Minto principle,
48:06
SPEAKER_00: which is created by Barbara Minto,
48:09
SPEAKER_00: which is a former McKinsey consultant.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: She was so good in communication that she actually read a book about it.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
48:17
the mental principle is the overarching concept of how you can
48:22
structure your
48:23
SPEAKER_00: argument in a very top-down way,
48:25
SPEAKER_00: right?
48:26
SPEAKER_00: So basically starting with the answer.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: While the SCQA is a framework that is specific to
48:33
SPEAKER_00: used to,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: how can you say,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: graph fitting the introduction of a presentation,
48:40
SPEAKER_00: for example,
48:40
or a meeting or something like that before you actually get to
48:43
the answer itself,
48:45
SPEAKER_00: right?
48:45
So,
48:46
and you can use it for reports,
48:48
meetings,
48:49
presentations,
48:50
emails,
48:51
et cetera.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: And we can try to go through the framework, right?
48:54
SPEAKER_00: So if we start with the S, so S is the situation as I mentioned.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Situation.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
49:02
So situation,
49:04
basically telling something that the receiver already knows and
49:08
accept to be true.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: And why is that important?
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Because that is the introduction that we are giving, right?
49:15
So if we are not getting people on board immediately,
49:19
then we have lost it.
49:21
So we want to tell something that all people that are sitting
49:25
in the room can say yes to.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: And typically it's a fact-based statement, right?
49:32
SPEAKER_00: Where are we now?
49:33
SPEAKER_00: Where do we want to go?
49:34
SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: Then we have the complication.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: So the complication is...
49:41
SPEAKER_00: is something that is a challenge with the current situation.
49:45
So it could be something that is stopping us from getting from
49:52
A to B,
49:53
for example,
49:53
right?
49:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's actually, that's the problem, so to speak.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: So you have communicated the situation,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: you have communicated the communication,
50:03
SPEAKER_00: then you have the question.
50:04
And the question is typically implied because that is something
50:07
that people will sit with.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you have stated the situation, the communication.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: So what now?
50:14
SPEAKER_00: Right?
50:14
SPEAKER_00: How can we fix this?
50:16
SPEAKER_00: This is where you get to the answer.
50:17
So the answer is typically a simple sentence that sums up your
50:23
presentation,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: your findings,
50:25
SPEAKER_00: your conclusion or recommendations.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: You also call it the governing thought, right?
50:32
Then,
50:33
of course,
50:34
your answer or your governing thought is supported by other key
50:38
words.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: arguments.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And typically,
50:41
SPEAKER_00: if you look at it from a report point of view,
50:43
SPEAKER_00: you will have a section,
50:45
SPEAKER_00: different sections that together sum up the recommendation.
50:50
I don't know if this seems very like conceptual or something
50:53
like that at the
50:54
SPEAKER_00: moment,
50:54
SPEAKER_00: but maybe let me give you an example,
50:58
SPEAKER_00: if that's okay.
50:59
SPEAKER_03: Let's do that.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: The answer is the A, right?
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
51:03
SPEAKER_00: the answer is the A.
51:05
SPEAKER_03: Okay,
51:05
SPEAKER_03: so we have the S is the situation,
51:08
SPEAKER_03: the C is the complication,
51:10
SPEAKER_03: the Q is the question,
51:11
SPEAKER_03: and the A is the answer.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: So let's just say we have a company, right?
51:19
SPEAKER_00: So the situation could be something like that.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Until recently,
51:23
we had a strong position in a high market share in a very
51:27
profitable market,
51:27
SPEAKER_00: for example,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: right?
51:29
So the complication is that we are surprised that our
51:33
competitor has taken XX
51:36
SPEAKER_00: percent of the market share in this very profitable market.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Then you will sit back with...
51:42
SPEAKER_00: okay, what has caused this shift, right?
51:45
And then the answer could be something like our loss of market
51:48
share is caused by
51:50
problems with our actual and perceived quality of the products
51:54
that we deliver.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: I know that's just to give you an idea, right?
51:58
SPEAKER_00: And then what will happen is that you have subsections
52:01
that go through uh that backs up your answer right so it could
52:05
be that you have
52:06
experienced major increase in quality issues right that has
52:11
been reported from uh
52:12
customers right it could also be that when they contact you you
52:17
give a very poor
52:19
SPEAKER_00: service for example right and then also that uh
52:24
it could be that the competitors have done a lot of marketing
52:27
campaigns right to
52:28
get market so so your answer is usually backed up with a much
52:35
more data but what
52:37
this help is the framework is it allows you to tell a story
52:41
basically all right
52:44
tell a story yeah you tell a story in a very simple way that is
52:49
something that
52:50
SPEAKER_00: people can follow
52:53
SPEAKER_00: So let's just say if I give an answer and I immediately start to say,
52:58
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
52:59
so we have a lot of problem with product A and we have a lot of
53:02
problem with
53:02
SPEAKER_00: product B.
53:03
And then we have also seen there are some campaigns going on
53:06
from our competitor A.
53:09
Then you have lost people because it's very difficult to
53:12
conceptualize it in a way,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: right?
53:14
SPEAKER_00: And also understand it because you are all over the place.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: So you need to make it simple.
53:20
For the reader,
53:22
for the audience to comprehend what is it that is being said.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: That's why we use typically this way of telling a story.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: And it might seem very, very simple, but it's very hard to master.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: Very hard to master.
53:38
SPEAKER_03: Why do you think it's hard to master?
53:40
SPEAKER_03: Because at least to me,
53:44
SPEAKER_03: it does make sense to start with the situation,
53:48
SPEAKER_03: to tell about the complication,
53:50
SPEAKER_03: to ask a question,
53:51
SPEAKER_03: and then together to come up with the answer.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: Why do you think a lot of leaders don't use this principle or framework?
54:02
I think the first thing,
54:03
it goes probably back to the fast-paced environment,
54:05
right?
54:06
SPEAKER_00: So it takes time.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: We've talked about communication as a skill.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: You need to learn it, then you need to nurture it, right?
54:14
So it is a simple framework,
54:16
but it takes time to really master it because
54:20
SPEAKER_00: you really need to sit down,
54:22
SPEAKER_00: you need to think about,
54:23
SPEAKER_00: okay,
54:23
SPEAKER_00: the situation that I'm going to write here,
54:25
does that actually make sense and resonate with the audience
54:30
that I'm trying to
54:31
SPEAKER_00: communicate with and the challenge and all these kind of things,
54:34
SPEAKER_00: right?
54:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think this complicates it, right?
54:38
SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't been taught with this kind of framework,
54:42
then it's very difficult to get it right because you just go
54:47
into autopilot and do
54:48
SPEAKER_00: what you are used to do,
54:49
SPEAKER_00: right?
54:51
And another thing is that when we are analyzing anything or we
54:56
are working with a
54:58
SPEAKER_00: specific subject,
54:59
SPEAKER_00: we have a lot of details.
55:02
And we want to put in all the details to make sure that people
55:08
can see we have
55:09
looked at things in a very holistic way and people know that
55:14
they get all the
55:15
SPEAKER_00: details so they know that we have thought about everything,
55:19
SPEAKER_00: as I explained,
55:19
SPEAKER_00: the holistic way.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: But usually,
55:21
SPEAKER_00: for example,
55:22
SPEAKER_00: when you're communicating with senior stakeholders,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: they don't like to get a lot of details.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Because first of all, they are not SMEs, so they will not know anyway.
55:34
But what they will recognize is that if you are telling a story
55:38
that makes sense in
55:39
SPEAKER_00: a logical way,
55:41
SPEAKER_00: right?
55:42
SPEAKER_00: And if it makes sense in a logical way, then they trust you.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: And if they trust you,
55:49
then they also trust that you can deliver the work that needs
55:51
to be delivered.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: I think it's not sufficient enough to be an expert in your field.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: You must be able to get your message across with impact.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: And usually where that happens is that if you have an SME that is very
56:06
SPEAKER_00: detail-oriented in a specific field,
56:09
SPEAKER_00: let's just say like,
56:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
56:10
SPEAKER_00: cybersecurity or infrastructure,
56:11
SPEAKER_00: it could be different things,
56:13
SPEAKER_00: then they have the tendency to focus on,
56:16
SPEAKER_00: again,
56:17
SPEAKER_00: a lot of details.
56:18
And if you're communicating to,
56:20
again,
56:20
to people that don't have a knowledge in that area,
56:23
SPEAKER_00: then you have lost them.
56:26
So that's also where you can use these kind of frameworks to
56:31
make sure you think
56:33
SPEAKER_00: about what is it that you're putting down.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think before you actually start on using the framework,
56:38
SPEAKER_00: there's,
56:39
SPEAKER_00: of course,
56:39
SPEAKER_00: other things that you need to have in mind.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: Who is the audience?
56:42
SPEAKER_00: Who are you communicating to?
56:43
SPEAKER_00: What would they be looking at?
56:45
SPEAKER_00: What is important for them, right?
56:47
SPEAKER_00: And all these things.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: And when you have that right,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: then,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: of course,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: then you can start to use the framework and create your storyline,
56:53
SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
56:57
SPEAKER_03: And this is also true in public speaking.
56:59
SPEAKER_03: You have to know your audience.
57:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: And then from your audience, you craft your message.
57:07
SPEAKER_03: And then even there, it's not enough just to have a message.
57:12
SPEAKER_03: You have to be able to emotionally connect with them.
57:15
SPEAKER_03: And when I listen to you, Kasim, and I listen to the framework...
57:20
and you say you need to be able to hold their attention and
57:25
make them interested,
57:27
SPEAKER_03: it sounds like storytelling,
57:28
SPEAKER_03: like you're saying,
57:29
SPEAKER_03: emotionally connecting with the audience,
57:31
emotionally connecting with the audience in order for them to
57:36
not only trust you,
57:37
SPEAKER_03: but also accept your logic,
57:40
SPEAKER_03: accept your message,
57:41
SPEAKER_03: or buy into it.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: And it is a very powerful, if you get it right, it's very powerful.
57:50
You want to make sure that people listen to you when you are
57:54
having a presentation,
57:55
right?
57:56
And that is basically a good way when you structure your
58:00
conversation with the SEQA
58:01
SPEAKER_00: framework,
58:02
SPEAKER_00: it helps you to do so.
58:04
SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
58:04
SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
58:05
SPEAKER_03: So use the framework.
58:07
SPEAKER_03: S, C, Q, A. S is situation.
58:10
SPEAKER_03: C is complication.
58:12
SPEAKER_03: Q is question.
58:13
SPEAKER_03: And A is the answer.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
58:16
SPEAKER_03: Great job.
58:16
SPEAKER_03: Great job.
58:18
SPEAKER_03: So we're almost going to wrap up, but I have a few questions for you.
58:22
SPEAKER_03: One is, if you are at work,
58:26
and you want to be a more effective communicator or a more
58:30
effective leader,
58:31
SPEAKER_03: what small habit can our listeners start practicing starting today?
58:39
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
58:41
I think before you actually start to speak,
58:45
you need to think about communication.
58:47
SPEAKER_00: If you think about communication in three phases,
58:51
So the first one is actually the preparation,
58:54
where you set yourself up for success.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: Then you have the second one,
58:58
SPEAKER_00: which is actually during the conversation,
59:01
SPEAKER_00: where you observe and adapt.
59:03
And then the last thing is the reflection part,
59:06
right,
59:07
where you learn and improve.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: So if we go to the first one,
59:11
SPEAKER_00: which is the preparation,
59:13
SPEAKER_00: I think we have talked about some of the things,
59:15
but is to take the time that is needed before meeting or
59:19
conversation and reflect
59:21
SPEAKER_00: on who is it that I'm going to talk with?
59:24
SPEAKER_00: Who is the audience?
59:25
SPEAKER_00: For example,
59:25
SPEAKER_00: if your audience is CFOs,
59:27
then you probably need to get your numbers right because that
59:30
will be something
59:30
SPEAKER_00: that they will be looking for.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: And why are we actually having this conversation in the first place?
59:36
SPEAKER_00: So you're setting yourself up for success.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the first thing, the preparation that goes into that.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: And I see that as the fundamentals that you need to be in play.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: Then we also talk about like during the conversation, right?
59:49
SPEAKER_00: So the ability to observe and adapt.
59:52
I think I mentioned active listening,
59:55
listen,
59:55
listen again,
59:56
and listen a little bit more.
59:58
That is important because we want to look at what is it people
1:00:02
that are saying,
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: why are they saying the things they are.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: So go behind the words, so to speak.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: And that will allow us to have great conversations.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing is that
1:00:17
it's actually rarely that the best conversation that you are
1:00:20
having is actually the
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: ones that go after your plan.
1:00:23
Because so much happened during a meeting that you need to have
1:00:27
that kind of
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: flexibility to adjust,
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: basically.
1:00:32
And then I think the last one is something that I think a lot
1:00:36
of people forget is
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: the reflection part.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: So that is actually where you talk about learn,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: not talk about,
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: where you think about learn and improve.
1:00:46
So,
1:00:47
and we think about like reflection should be something that
1:00:50
take half an hour,
1:00:51
one hour.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: It can be two, three, four minutes, right?
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: It's top of your head.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: Write down what do you think went well?
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: What do you think you should change for the next time?
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: I think if you just get that right, you're in a really good position.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: Then we talked about feedback.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: This is also an area where you can get feedback.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: So you can...
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: Tell a colleague, hey, I'm going into this presentation with you.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: Can you please pay attention to my body language?
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Or can you pay attention to when I'm communicating the numbers?
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: Am I making my point clear or something like that?
1:01:27
Or what's important is that you are being very clear on what is
1:01:33
it that they should
1:01:34
SPEAKER_00: give you feedback on.
1:01:36
So not just going to say,
1:01:36
hey,
1:01:37
can you give me feedback on how it went with the presentation?
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: They will talk about a lot of different things.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: But if you narrow it down to,
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: body language,
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: the way I convey the numbers,
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: then you're being very,
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: very specific.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also helpful.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: So I think these three phases,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: if you have that in your mind,
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: that could also make a lot of improvement.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_03: I like the simple advice because it's not rocket science.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_03: It's just that we have to be mindful of
1:02:14
And we have to think about this and we have to put the time
1:02:19
needed to work on communication.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_03: So preparation, it takes work.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_03: You have to remember it.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: You have to do it.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_03: Doing the conversation, be flexible.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_03: Like you say,
1:02:32
SPEAKER_03: listen between what is being said,
1:02:35
SPEAKER_03: read between the lines,
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: being present,
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: being flexible,
1:02:38
SPEAKER_03: and then the reflection,
1:02:40
SPEAKER_03: feedback.
1:02:41
And think about how you can develop and how the meeting went or
1:02:45
how the discussion
1:02:45
SPEAKER_03: went or how the speech went.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_03: It's not rocket science.
1:02:50
It's just that we have to force ourselves to basically do these
1:02:56
things if we want
1:02:58
SPEAKER_03: to take our communication skills to the next level.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_00: True, true.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's with everything that you learn, it takes time.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned, it takes time and is a habit.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: How can we make it a habit?
1:03:15
SPEAKER_03: Make it a habit.
1:03:16
SPEAKER_03: It's going to be uncomfortable.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_03: It's going to feel like you have to have discipline.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_03: But after a while, it's going to become a habit.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_03: That's what I love.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_03: Great.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_03: So you are obviously a talented leader.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_03: A lot of people look up to you, Kasim, and I've seen you also in action.
1:03:35
What advice do you have to young professionals who would like
1:03:41
to develop their
1:03:42
SPEAKER_03: leadership skills?
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: We talked about being yourself.
1:03:53
And I think I want to take it a step further is talk about what
1:03:56
kind of leader do
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: you would like to be?
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: How do you want people to look at you as a leader?
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: That is very important, right?
1:04:06
And you need to get that right because then you know also what
1:04:10
is it that you're solving for.
1:04:13
Then another thing is that when you get that right,
1:04:17
then get some inspiration.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: Get awesome inspiration.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: It could be inspiration from a mentor that you look up to, right?
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: and that can give you the guides,
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: can provide guidelines,
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: not guidelines,
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: but can guide you in the way that you want,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think a mentor is a really good thing to have.
1:04:45
Having a mentor is really impactful if you have the right
1:04:51
collaboration as a senior mentor.
1:04:54
So I would say first,
1:04:55
you need to understand what kind of leader do you want to be.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think then don't force it.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: Leadership should also be natural.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: And all people are not born to be leaders.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: You can learn some skills to be a better leader,
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: but sometimes I also know people that say,
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a leader.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: Too much responsibility, and it's not something that motivates me.
1:05:21
So you also need to fully understand,
1:05:23
is it actually something that you would like to do?
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: Because it comes with a huge responsibility.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot of nuances to this, right?
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:05:33
What is the one thing that you feel is the most important thing
1:05:38
that we haven't
1:05:39
SPEAKER_03: talked about today?
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: I think we have talked about a lot of things.
1:05:46
Being a leader that is present,
1:05:48
and I'm not talking about physical presence,
1:05:51
right?
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:05:53
SPEAKER_00: for example,
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: with my team,
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: I put a lot of effort into making sure that they can reach me,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:06:01
SPEAKER_00: That even though if I'm just saying working from home or,
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: they cannot see me in the office,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: if they call me,
1:06:09
SPEAKER_00: if they email me and things like that,
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm present.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: I am there to help them, to support them, right?
1:06:16
SPEAKER_00: Because as a leadership,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: we don't want to,
1:06:19
SPEAKER_00: our team should not feel that they are left alone in the dark,
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: So I think being present without being physically present,
1:06:27
SPEAKER_00: and it might sound contradicting,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_00: but it is possible,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:06:33
SPEAKER_00: And some of it also comes down to communication.
1:06:36
So you communicate with your team and say,
1:06:38
what is the best time to reach me?
1:06:40
SPEAKER_00: And what is not the best time to reach me?
1:06:43
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_03: So presence and availability.
1:06:47
Yeah,
1:06:47
and I think it's probably more availability than present
1:06:51
itself,
1:06:52
right?
1:06:52
SPEAKER_00: So then the present is more like when they contact you,
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: you are actually there to listen and to guide them.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: That's needed.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: That's the present that you show.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, availability.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_00: And definitely now where the work environment has changed, right?
1:07:09
SPEAKER_00: People working from home or different countries and so forth, right?
1:07:14
SPEAKER_00: But...
1:07:15
your team members still need to feel that they can reach you as
1:07:19
a leader.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:21
And this is so vital because I've met a lot of leaders who have
1:07:26
so much to do.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_03: They're traveling, they're busy, they're going from a meeting to meeting.
1:07:33
But for their people,
1:07:36
for their employees who try to call them or reach them,
1:07:41
a lot of people get frustrated because they cannot reach their
1:07:45
boss or they feel
1:07:47
SPEAKER_03: their boss is not available or not present.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_03: And so it doesn't really matter how much you have as a leader.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_03: If you're not available,
1:07:54
SPEAKER_03: if you're not present for your people,
1:07:58
SPEAKER_03: they're not going to understand that.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_03: They're not going to appreciate that.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think also another thing maybe is also that as a leader,
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: you don't always need to tell,
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: I think I mentioned it early on,
1:08:14
SPEAKER_00: that you don't need to come up with the answers.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_00: You should have a more coaching approach.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: Ask the right questions.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: Encourage your team members to come up with the solutions, right?
1:08:25
SPEAKER_00: Because in many cases, people know what they should do.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: You just need to ask the right questions.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: What we tend to do immediately is that,
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: okay,
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: I have a team member that have asked me about this,
1:08:38
SPEAKER_00: then I need to come up with an answer.
1:08:41
No,
1:08:41
maybe stop,
1:08:42
reflect,
1:08:42
you know,
1:08:43
ask them,
1:08:44
what do you think could be a good approach?
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: Why do you think this could be a good approach?
1:08:49
SPEAKER_00: What are some of the challenges with doing this?
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: Are there other options that we can pursue as things like that, right?
1:08:55
It's much more engaging and it's also helping you as a leader
1:09:00
to grow your employees.
1:09:02
I think what people want is just like you said before,
1:09:05
it's psychological safety.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_03: And if I feel safe in my environment,
1:09:11
SPEAKER_03: and if you as a leader help me in that process,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_03: and if you have a coaching mindset that
1:09:19
SPEAKER_03: I will appreciate you more as a leader.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_03: I will look up to you more as a leader.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_03: And I think we will also create a more healthy work environment.
1:09:29
But if I have to feel that I have to go to my boss for every
1:09:31
single thing,
1:09:33
SPEAKER_03: I don't have the courage to make a decision by myself and so forth.
1:09:38
I think the leader has failed to actually create that
1:09:41
psychological safety you
1:09:42
SPEAKER_03: talked about earlier.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
1:09:47
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's definitely an area that we as leaders should pay attention to.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_03: Great, man.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_03: One last question before I let you go.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_03: If you had to give people only one advice,
1:10:05
SPEAKER_03: all the books you've read,
1:10:06
SPEAKER_03: your wonderful experience,
1:10:09
SPEAKER_03: what you've achieved so far,
1:10:10
SPEAKER_03: you could only give people one advice to live a better life.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_03: What would it be?
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: Don't take things personally.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_03: Don't take things personally.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_03: Wonderful.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very important lesson.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: Is it hard not to take things personally?
1:10:36
SPEAKER_00: It is.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_00: You have done an analysis and then people don't agree with the analysis.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_00: You have put so much effort into it.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_00: Of course you will take it personally.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_00: Don't take it personally.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: Life is too short for that.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_00: So move on.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, man.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate our time together.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for what we have talked about today,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_03: all your advice,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_03: your guidance,
1:11:01
SPEAKER_03: such an inspiration,
1:11:02
SPEAKER_03: your leadership style,
1:11:04
SPEAKER_03: your communication style.
1:11:06
And I really appreciate for you coming here today and sharing
1:11:10
with us your
1:11:12
SPEAKER_03: important insights on leadership and communication.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: Nice to be here.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_00: So thanks a lot for inviting me.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_03: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
1:11:29
SPEAKER_03: share it with someone you care about,
1:11:31
SPEAKER_03: a friend,
1:11:32
SPEAKER_03: a partner,
1:11:33
SPEAKER_03: or a colleague who wants to grow.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_03: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
1:11:39
SPEAKER_03: I'm Ibrahim.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_03: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.