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Ben Lamm (2025) - De-extinction and the Future of Conservation · The Joe Rogan Recap

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Joe Rogan recap. Yeah, there.
• 0:02
  Today we're taking a fascinating journey, really diving into the
• 0:06
  work of Colossal Biosciences. Right.
• 0:09
  The company that's actually pioneering de extinction and,
• 0:12
  you know, species preservation. Exactly, it's this concept that,
• 0:16
  well, it often often gets compared to a real life Jurassic
• 0:19
  Park. Yeah, that comparison comes up a
• 0:20
  lot, but their focus seems much more geared towards actual
• 0:24
  conservation. Right.
• 0:25
  So definitely it's serious science.
• 0:27
  And our main source for this is the conversation Joe Rogan had
• 0:30
  with Ben Lamb. Ben Lamb the CEO and Co founder
• 0:33
  of Colossal. That was JRE episode hashtag 23
• 0:37
  O one. Right.
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  And this deep dive is really for you, the listener, if you're
• 0:40
  curious and want to get a solid grasp on this stuff quickly
• 0:44
  without getting totally bogged down.
• 0:45
  Yeah, it's a way to understand this frankly pretty mind blowing
• 0:48
  field efficiently and it throws up some surprising stuff too,
• 0:51
  OK. So let's start at the beginning,
• 0:53
  the genesis of Colossal How did Ben Lamb even get into de
• 0:56
  extinction? It seems like quite a.
• 0:58
  Well, it really boiled down to his curiosity and then this key
• 1:01
  conversation he had with George Church.
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  George Church from Harvard, the father of synthetic biology.
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  That's the one apparently quite tall, and Lamb mentioned he has
• 1:10
  narcolepsy too. Just an interesting detail about
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  this brilliant guy. So Lam's background wasn't in
• 1:16
  biology, was it? It was more software building
• 1:18
  teams. Exactly.
• 1:20
  Software assembling, groups of really smart people.
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  He was initially interested in synthetic biology more broadly,
• 1:26
  like for crops, animals, that sort of thing.
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  Then he gets on this call with George Church.
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  Lam's firing off questions about synthetic biology.
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  And church is keeping up, presumably.
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  Oh yeah, Then apparently Church just sort of casually drops in
• 1:40
  that he's working on mammoths. On that bringing back woolly
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  mammoths just like that. Pretty much.
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  And Lamb's reaction, understandably, was disbelief.
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  Like, wait, what? Even coming from church.
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  I can imagine. So what did he do?
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  What any curious person would I guess he dove into research
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  overnight, looked into Church's work, and found this consistent
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  mammoth through line, as he called it.
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  So it wasn't just a random comment search.
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  Have been working on this for a while.
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  For years, and get this within seven days of that phone call,
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  Lamb was in church's lab. A week from wait Mammoths to
• 2:17
  Let's Start a company. Yep, chose Lamb's drive right
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  And how compelling Church's vision must have been.
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  That was basically the start of Colossal.
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  Wow. OK, so the woolly mammoth was
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  the first big target. Makes sense if Church already
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  had years invested. Eight years of work.
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  Yeah. Plus there is this strong
• 2:34
  ecological argument. For bringing them back.
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  Ecological modelling suggested to that reintroducing mammoths,
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  these large herbivores, could actually benefit Arctic
• 2:42
  ecosystems, help restore the mammoth step, maybe even slow
• 2:46
  permafrost thaw. Interesting.
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  So it wasn't just about the spectacle.
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  No, not at all. And crucially, the technologies
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  they needed to develop Advanced gene editing, ancient DNA
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  recovery, maybe artificial wombs down the line.
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  These have huge potential applications elsewhere.
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  Helping existing elephant populations.
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  Exactly, elephant conservation is a big one and even
• 3:05
  potentially spinning off tech for human healthcare.
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  Right. And then the company went
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  public, got a lot of attention. It went viral, basically, and
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  that led to other researchers approaching them, people working
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  on things like the thylacine, the dodo.
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  So the scope expanded pretty quickly.
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  It really did. OK, let's dig into the actual
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  process. How do you even start trying to
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  bring back a mammoth? The DNA must be the first
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  hurdle. Oh, absolutely.
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  Ancient DNA is well, Lamb called it a shitty jigsaw puzzle.
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  I like that because it's so degraded.
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  Totally. It's fragmented.
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  It's contaminated with bacteria, fungus, whatever is in the soil.
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  It breaks down really fast. So putting it back together.
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  It's primarily an AI and compute problem, he emphasized.
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  You need sophisticated algorithms to sort through all
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  that mess, identify the real mammoth bits and figure out how
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  they fit. OK, so you've got these
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  fragments, then what? You compare it to a living
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  relative, right? Genotyping is key, and this is
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  where it gets really interesting.
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  The closest living relative to the woolly mammoth isn't the
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  African elephant as you might assume.
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  No, it's the Asian elephant. They share something like 99.6%
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  of their DNA. Wow. 99.6% of their DNA.
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  Wow, 99.6% closer than Asian elephants are to African
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  elephant. Exactly.
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  Which is a pretty surprising fact, and it suggests you know
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  that the basic cellular machinery is probably
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  compatible. But that .4% difference, yeah,
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  it's still a lot of genetic information, right?
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  That's what makes a mammoth a mammoth.
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  It is. It contains the genes for cold
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  adaptation, the shaggy coat, the small ears, the fat layers, all
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  that stuff. So editing needs to be precise.
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  And when did they actually go extinct?
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  It feels like ancient history, but.
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  Well, the mainland populations died out maybe 10,000 years ago,
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  but there was this isolated group on Wrangel Island off
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  Siberia. And they survive longer.
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  Yeah, until about 4000 years. AGO 4000.
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  Wait, that means they were still around when the Egyptians were
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  building the pyramids? Mind blowing isn't it?
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  Mammoths and pyramids overlapping in time.
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  That really changes the picture. So what happened on Rangel
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  Island? The theory is basically a
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  genetic bottleneck. Small population inbreeding,
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  loss of genetic diversity. Eventually they just couldn't
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  cope. A sad end.
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  A cautionary tale, and Lam mentioned there isn't some big
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  global backup of DNA for all species, right?
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  No, apparently not. No comprehensive Noah's Ark bio
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  vault as he put it. Which is why Colossal is having
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  to build these reference genomes themselves for the species they
• 5:38
  work on. It's a huge undertaking.
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  OK, so you have the fragmented ancient DNA, you have the Asian
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  elephant genome as a reference. How do you bridge that .4% gap?
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  That's the synthetic biology part.
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  Exactly. This is where tools like CRISPR
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  come in the. Gene editing technology.
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  Right. Think of it like precise
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  molecular scissors. You use the ancient mammoth DNA
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  as a guide to make specific edits in the Asian elephant
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  genome. You're adding back those key
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  mammoth genes. So you're not aiming for a 100%
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  perfect genetic match to the ancient mammoth?
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  No, not necessarily. Lamb talked about functional de
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  extinction. The goal is to create an animal
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  that looks like a mammoth, acts like a mammoth, and most
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  importantly, can perform the ecological role of a mammoth.
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  Gotcha. OK, so before they jump straight
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  to making mammoths, they needed a proof of concept, the woolly
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  mouse. Yeah, the Woolly Mouse Project.
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  It sounds a bit funny, but it was scientifically important.
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  Why mice? They're pretty far from
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  elephants, evolutionarily. Exactly about 200 million years
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  of divergent. So just sticking mammoth genes
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  directly into a mouse embryo probably wouldn't work well and
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  raises ethical questions about potential harm, right?
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  So instead they identified the mouse equivalent genes related
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  to hair growth and phenotype the physical characteristics of the
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  hair. And edited those to make them
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  more. Woolly precisely trying to mimic
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  the effect of the mammoth genes, but using the mouse's own
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  genetic architecture. It was a safer, more targeted
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  way to test the editing technology.
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  And how did that go? Surprisingly, viral people love
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  the idea of woolly mice. There were T-shirts, apparently
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  even a meme coin. Seriously.
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  Yeah, but scientifically, it was a big success.
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  They created 36 healthy woolly mice. 36 and healthy.
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  And crucially, it demonstrated 100% efficiency in Multiplex
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  gene editing. Multiplex, meaning editing
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  multiple genes at once. Exactly, editing several genes
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  simultaneously and importantly with no detectable off target
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  effects, no unintended changes elsewhere in the genome.
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  That's a huge deal for the safety and precision of this
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  tech. Wow, OK, that's a significant
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  step. Did the mice give any clues
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  about what mammoths actually looked like?
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  Well, the woolly mice ended up having the sort of golden brown
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  fur. Golden brown.
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  Yeah, which apparently aligns pretty well with some of the
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  well preserved mammoth carcasses found in permafrost, like Liuba,
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  the baby mammoth. So it offered a visual
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  confirmation too. OK, so Colossal isn't just about
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  bringing back extinct giants. They're also involved in
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  conservation Now, working with various groups.
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  Very much so, Lamb emphasized. Working with private land
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  owners, governments, indigenous people.
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  It's not just happening in a lab vacuum.
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  Right, he mentioned a bison project.
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  Yeah, they created a population genomics map for bison,
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  understanding the genetic diversity in history within the
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  bison population. And that led to conversations
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  with the MHA Nation, Mandan, Hidatsa and Arakara Nation.
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  Exactly. And the feedback from the MHA
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  Nation wasn't just about bison. They highlighted the importance
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  of wolf conservation. Eagles fish a whole ecosystem
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  approach. And they mentioned a specific
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  wolf. The great white wolf, which
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  holds cultural significance for them and their ancestral
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  knowledge, even hinted at a possible connection to the
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  direwolf. The direwolf like from Game of
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  Thrones. The very same, though the real
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  ones were distinct from Gray wolves.
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  But Lamb saw this as a fascinating link and also a way
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  to engage a whole different audience.
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  Yeah. Sci-fi and fantasy fans, kids.
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  Yeah, it definitely has broader appeal.
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  But finding direwolf DNA was tough, wasn't it?
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  Most fossils are from the La Brea Tar Pits in LA.
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  Right. And tar isn't great for
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  preserving DNA. Too hot, Too chemically harsh.
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  But they did find some elsewhere.
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  They managed to sequence DNA from a 13,000 year old tooth
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  found in a cave. OK, how good was the sequence?
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  About .15 X coverage, so not great enough to learn some
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  things, but not really enough to attempt de extinction.
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  That means they only got fragments covering about 15% of
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  the genome. Not enough pieces of the puzzle.
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  Exactly. But then they got lucky.
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  How so? A much older skull, 72,000 or
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  73,000 years old, was found in a riverbed somewhere.
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  Older but better preserved. Yes, because it contained the
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  Petrus bone. The inner ear bone I've heard
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  that's incredibly dense. Super dense, it protects DNA
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  exceptionally well over long periods.
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  And from that bone they got 13 to 14 X coverage. 13 times
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  coverage. That's way better A.
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  Game changer, and enough overlapping fragments to piece
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  together a much, much more complete picture of the dire
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  wolf genome. Enough potentially to actually
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  bring it back. Wow, OK, that's huge.
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  Now what about the ethics? The whole playing God argument
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  comes up a lot. It does.
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  Lamb addressed it directly. His perspective is basically
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  that humans are already profoundly impacting the planet.
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  Over fishing, over hunting, deforestation, climate change.
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  We've driven species extinct. So using technology to try and
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  undo some of that damage is. Arguably a more responsible path
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  than just letting ecosystems continue to degrade.
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  He pointed to the successful wolf reintroduction in
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  Yellowstone. Right.
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  That had massive positive ripple effects through the whole
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  ecosystem. Exactly, bringing back a
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  keystone species can and revitalize a landscape.
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  There's also this philosophical debate, isn't there?
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  What even is a species? Is it about breeding, looks?
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  Genetics. It's complex.
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  The definition varies. Can they interbreed and produce
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  fertile offspring? Do they look similar?
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  Morphology. Are they genetically distinct?
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  Are they geographically isolated?
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  Scientists don't always agree. So even if Colossal creates
• 11:13
  something that looks like a mammoth and has mammoth genes,
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  is it really a mammoth? Some paleontologists and
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  scientists might debate that. Yeah, especially if the
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  morphology, say, the tooth structure isn't perfectly
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  identical even if the genes are there.
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  It gets back to that Jurassic Park idea.
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  Are they creating genetically modified elephants or truly
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  bringing back mammoths? Right Lamb leans towards
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  functional de extinction if it serves the ecological purpose.
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  If it fills that niche, maybe the precise label matters less
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  than the positive impact. Makes sense.
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  OK, shifting gears slightly, Colossal isn't just focused on
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  extinct animals, right? They're actively involved with
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  endangered species now. Yes, and that's a really
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  important part of their mission. They paired the extinction
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  projects with species preservation, and they plan to
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  open source their conservation technologies like.
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  With the red wolf. Exactly.
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  The red wolf situation is dire. Critically endangered?
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  Maybe only 15 left in the wild in North Carolina. 15 That's
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  terrifyingly low. It is, and the official red wolf
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  recovery program has faced huge challenges, including
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  hybridization with coyotes, which dilutes the red wolf
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  genes. But didn't they find another
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  population somewhere else? Sort of.
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  They found wolves in Louisiana that actually had more red wolf
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  DNA in them than the recognized population in North Carolina.
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  It complicates the picture. So what did Colossal do?
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  They successfully cloned 4 red wolves and importantly, they
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  were from three different genetic lines.
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  So increasing the genetic diversity which is crucial for
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  such a small population. Precisely.
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  And they developed a new cloning technique using blood samples
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  endothelial progenitor cells. Non invasive.
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  That sounds like a big deal for conservation.
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  Huge makes biobanking genetic material much easier and less
• 12:57
  stressful for the animals. A potential game changer, as
• 13:00
  Lamb put it. But they hit roadblocks with
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  getting more wolves cloned. Yeah, initially they offered to
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  clone more for free, but apparently the US Fish and
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  Wildlife Service was slow to respond or engage.
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  Some frustration there. But things are looking up now.
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  Seems so. He mentioned a recent positive
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  meeting with the Department of the Interior, who seems
• 13:18
  supportive of their conservation work, so hopefully progress can
• 13:22
  be made. OK, let's get back to the
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  direwolves, because they actually did.
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  It they did, 3 direwolf pups have been born, named Romulus,
• 13:32
  Remus and Kesey. Wow, actual direwolf pups,
• 13:36
  that's incredible. It really is, Lam described
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  Peter Jackson's reaction of, you know, the director.
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  Lord of the Rings, he's involved.
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  An investor? Yeah, Apparently Jackson heard
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  the pups howl, the first direwolf howls in maybe 10,000
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  years and got quite emotional. I bet and there was some weird
• 13:53
  coincidence with the Game of Thrones throne.
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  Yeah, apparently the pups had a vet checkup scheduled and it
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  happened to be near this actual prop throne from the show that
• 14:02
  Jackson had just acquired. Cosmic timing.
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  That's pretty funny. Are the pups OK?
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  Healthy? Seems so.
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  They had the American Humane Society there, vet teams.
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  Animal welfare is clearly a priority.
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  They're not being released or anything.
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  Where are they living? On a secure 2000 acre ecological
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  preserve 247 care, they're being closely monitored.
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  And they're growing fast. Incredibly fast, over 45 lbs at
• 14:27
  three months, 80 lbs by 5 months, and already 5.5 feet
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  long. Oh, so bigger than Gray wolves.
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  Definitely tracking that way. Fossil records show dire wolves
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  were about 2025% larger and stockier than Gray wolves.
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  These pups seem to be confirming that and.
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  What about their appearance? Did the genetics reveal anything
• 14:47
  surprising? Yes, the genome apparently
• 14:50
  contains genes for white fur white.
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  Not the reddish brown often depicted.
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  Nope. So maybe some looked more like
• 14:55
  dosed from Game of Thrones. It challenges the old
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  assumptions based on fossils alone.
• 15:00
  That's cool. Are they showing any direwolf
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  behaviors yet? Early signs of hunting behavior.
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  Apparently, even in captivity, those ancient instincts might be
• 15:07
  surfacing. So those 10,000 year old hunting
• 15:09
  genes, including the ones for size, are actually being
• 15:12
  reactivated. It seems like it.
• 15:14
  By comparing the DNA from that 13,000 year old tooth and the
• 15:18
  73,000 year old skull, they could pinpoint genes that were
• 15:22
  really fixed and conserved in the species.
• 15:25
  It's fascinating to think that these complex behaviors are just
• 15:29
  baked into the genes waiting to re emerge.
• 15:32
  Deeply fascinating, the idea of dormant characteristics coming
• 15:35
  back online after millennia. Are there other extinct animals
• 15:39
  Colossal is looking? At Definitely, the American
• 15:41
  Cheetah was mentioned. There was an American cheetah.
• 15:43
  Yep, now extinct but we have it's full genome.
• 15:46
  It's thought to be why pronghorns are so incredibly
• 15:49
  fast. They evolved to escape it.
• 15:50
  That makes sense. What else?
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  The Stellar's sea cow, a huge, gentle marine mammal related to
• 15:56
  manatees. Oh, I've heard of that.
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  Haunted to extinction really quickly.
• 15:59
  Right. Tragically fast.
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  Within about 30 years of Europeans discovering it in the
• 16:03
  Bering Sea, we have its full genome too.
• 16:05
  And bringing it back could help ecosystems.
• 16:08
  Potentially, yeah. They were massive grazers of
• 16:11
  kelp. Restoring them could have big
• 16:13
  benefits for kelp forests, which are crucial marine habitats.
• 16:16
  Looking further ahead, what about technologies like
• 16:19
  artificial wombs? Is that part of the plan?
• 16:21
  It's on the horizon. Lamb sees it as a potential
• 16:24
  future tool for, as he put it, productionizing endangered
• 16:29
  species recovery. Meaning.
• 16:31
  Scaling up breeding efforts, increasing genetic diversity
• 16:34
  rapidly without relying solely on surrogates, which can be a
• 16:37
  bottleneck. Right, so the big picture is
• 16:40
  rewilding, restoring ecosystems. That's the long term vision.
• 16:44
  He mentioned Pleistocene Park in Siberia, where they're trying to
• 16:48
  restore the Mammoth Step ecosystem by introducing cold
• 16:51
  adapted large animals. Colossal's work could
• 16:54
  potentially contribute to efforts like that.
• 16:56
  But reintroduction is complex, right?
• 16:57
  You can't just drop a mammoth in Siberia and walk away.
• 17:00
  Absolutely not. Land stressed the importance of
• 17:02
  working with local communities, addressing concerns,
• 17:05
  anticipating challenges, potential unintended
• 17:07
  consequences. Like that weird finding with
• 17:09
  Tasmanian devils. Yeah, the generational trauma
• 17:11
  thing. Apparently, even though
• 17:13
  thylacines, Tasmanian tigers have been extinct for decades,
• 17:17
  Tasmanian devils and Wallabies still show fear responses to
• 17:20
  thylacine models or sense. Wow, like an inherited memory of
• 17:25
  a predator? It seems like it.
• 17:27
  It shows how deep these ecological relationships run and
• 17:30
  how carefully reintroductions need to be managed.
• 17:32
  These genetic technologies obviously have implications
• 17:35
  beyond animals. What about human health?
• 17:38
  Huge potential there. Gene editing could revolutionize
• 17:42
  treatments for genetic diseases like sickle cell anemia.
• 17:46
  Lam mentioned the possibility down the road of even making
• 17:49
  therapeutic edits in people after they're born.
• 17:51
  That raises all sorts of ethical questions, though.
• 17:53
  Massive Ones. Colossal has decided
• 17:56
  specifically not to work on humans directly.
• 17:58
  But they might spin out the technology.
• 18:00
  Right. Develop tools for de extinction
• 18:03
  or conservation that could then be adapted by others for medical
• 18:06
  applications, but they draw a line at modifying humans
• 18:09
  themselves. Is there a concern that other
• 18:11
  countries might not have the same ethical boundaries?
• 18:14
  Lam definitely voiced that concern.
• 18:16
  If the US holds back too much due to ethical debates, other
• 18:19
  nations might push ahead anyway, potentially less responsibly.
• 18:23
  He argues for US leadership in the field, navigating the ethics
• 18:26
  carefully but still advancing the science.
• 18:29
  It feels like we're on the cusp of something huge with AI, maybe
• 18:34
  quantum computing, and synthetic biology all converging.
• 18:37
  It's a powerful convergence. The possibilities seem almost
• 18:40
  limitless for good and potentially for bad.
• 18:43
  It underscores the need for really thoughtful responsible
• 18:47
  development. During the conversation, were
• 18:49
  there any other just weird or wonderful discoveries mentioned?
• 18:54
  Stuff hidden in museums or surprising animal facts.
• 18:57
  Oh yeah, plenty like the fact that museum archives are just
• 19:00
  overflowing with uncataloged specimens potentially holding
• 19:03
  genetic treasures. Like the thylacine pup.
• 19:06
  Exactly the miracle pup found preserved in formaldehyde almost
• 19:09
  perfectly, yielding a 98% complete genome, and then they
• 19:13
  found its mother's head in a bucket somewhere else allowed
• 19:16
  for detailed genetic comparisons just.
• 19:18
  Amazing what's tucked away. What else?
• 19:20
  The existence of singing dogs in Papua New Guinea.
• 19:23
  Wild dogs with a unique vocalization. 15 dogs, OK.
• 19:26
  And the elephant cancer resistance thing.
• 19:28
  Pedo's paradox. Elephants have way more cells
• 19:31
  than us and live a long time, so statistically they should get
• 19:34
  cancer much more often, but they don't much lower rates.
• 19:37
  They have extra copies of a tumor suppressor gene P53, which
• 19:41
  is cool but also makes gene editing and elephants tricky
• 19:44
  because the cells are so good at repairing DNA changes or self
• 19:48
  destructing if damaged. Anything else striking the?
• 19:52
  Cane toad resistance Some mammals in South America, where
• 19:55
  cane toads are native, have evolved resistance to their
• 19:58
  toxins. And the idea is to give that
• 20:00
  resistance to Australian animals.
• 20:02
  Potentially, yeah. Engineer that resistance into
• 20:05
  endangered Australian marsupials like quolls, which are
• 20:08
  devastated by invasive cane toads.
• 20:10
  Wow and giant Beavers pronghorn speed.
• 20:13
  Yeah, giant Beavers in place to see North America and the
• 20:16
  pronghorns incredible speed being an evolutionary echo of
• 20:19
  the extinct American cheetah. And that bird with claws?
• 20:23
  The Hodson, a South American bird whose chicks have claws on
• 20:26
  their wings, letting them climb trees before they can fly
• 20:29
  properly, looks very dinosaur like.
• 20:31
  Nature's wild. OK, wrapping this up, what are
• 20:33
  the main takeaways for you? Well, first, just the sheer
• 20:36
  speed of advancement in synthetic biology and de
• 20:38
  extinction is incredible. This isn't science fiction
• 20:41
  anymore. Right, it's happening now.
• 20:42
  Second, the potential is huge, not just for bringing back
• 20:46
  species, but for conservation, understanding life's history,
• 20:51
  maybe even ecosystem restoration.
• 20:53
  But third, the ethical considerations are absolutely
• 20:56
  crucial. We need to proceed thoughtfully
• 20:59
  and responsibly. Exactly.
• 21:00
  The power of these technologies demands careful stewardship.
• 21:04
  So a final thought for you, the listener.
• 21:06
  Think about what it truly means. If we can bring back extinct
• 21:09
  species. How does that change our
• 21:12
  relationship with nature, our understanding of life itself?
• 21:15
  And what responsibilities come with that power, the power to,
• 21:19
  in a way, reshape both the past and the future of life on Earth?
• 21:23
  It's definitely something a Mull over.
• 21:24
  Indeed, a lot to think about for sure.
• 21:27
  All right, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the
• 21:29
  Joe Rogan recap with Ben Lamb. If you want to learn more about
• 21:32
  Colossal, check out colossal.com or their social media.
• 21:35
  They share quite a bit of info there.
• 21:36
  And I have to say, I'm personally pretty excited about
• 21:39
  maybe seeing those direwolves someday.
• 21:41
  Join us next time for another deep dive into a fascinating
• 21:44
  topic.