Latest / Radically Genuine / 189. Can Near-Death Experiences & Past Lives Research Reveal Life's Deeper Purpose?

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189. Can Near-Death Experiences & Past Lives Research Reveal Life's Deeper Purpose? · Radically Genuine

• Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (00:01.836) Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. am Dr. Roger MacPhillan. What if I told you that modern medicine is operating on a fundamentally flawed assumption that our entire healthcare system, including our understanding of mental health, even our approach to living and dying is built on a 19th century materialism that cutting edge science is rapidly dismantling. Right now, as you listen to this, there are peer reviewed studies sitting in prestigious journals that completely contradict everything you were taught about the nature of reality. Research that suggests your thoughts have measurable effects on physical reality, evidence that consciousness can operate independently of the brain, data showing that spiritual practices aren't just feel-good activities, they're technologies for accessing information about reality that our medical schools don't even acknowledge exists. We're living through the biggest paradigm shift in human history. And most people have no idea it's happening. While mainstream science clings to the outdated belief that consciousness is just brain chemistry, researchers around the world are documenting phenomena that would have been called impossible just decades ago. People who were declared clinically dead are coming back with information they couldn't possibly know. Children are speaking languages they never heard, describing lives they never lived. Prayer and intention are being shown to have measurable effects on everything from water molecules to healing rates. And this isn't fringe science anymore. This is robust, replicable research being conducted at major universities. And the implications are staggering because here's what nobody's telling you. Understanding consciousness isn't just about death in the afterlife. It's about living better right now. It's about accessing intuition that you can use to guide your decisions, tapping into healing modalities that work with your consciousness instead of against it, and recognizing that you have capacities that your doctor, your therapist, and maybe even you yourself don't even know. The materialist paradigm isn't just scientifically outdated, it's holding us back from our full potential as human beings. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (02:25.388) And today we're talking with someone who has made it her mission to bridge the gap between breakthrough science and practical living. Several years ago, today's guest, she began exploring the topics of death and consciousness, delving into the scientific evidence that suggests consciousness survives physical death. This unexpected journey profoundly transformed her fundamental view of reality. Inspired by the positive shifts this change brought to her life, she became passionate about sharing this research with a wider audience and developed one of my favorite Instagram accounts, Live Deathless. Stephanie aims to bridge the gap between science and spirituality, challenging mainstream views on the nature of reality and what happens after we die. She encourages everyone to approach life's greatest mysteries with openness and curiosity, because whether or not you believe in an afterlife, Exploring these topics can help us lead happier, more fulfilled and inspired lives. Through her Deathless platform, she's not just asking whether consciousness survives death. She's showing how understanding consciousness can transform how you approach anxiety, relationships, health, and meaning in your life right now. Today, we're going to examine evidence that the mainstream ignores. explore implications that most institutions won't discuss, and discover practical applications that could revolutionize how you live. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (00:03.384) Stephanie, welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I absolutely love your Instagram account. So why don't you take us back to the origins of Live Deathless. Stephanie (00:09.841) Okay, so a few years ago, I was introduced to some essays. was a contest by the Bigelow Institute of Consciousness Studies looking for the best evidence that our consciousness survives the physical death of our bodies. And my father-in-law works for this company and was on the board of judges reading these essays. And I was over for Christmas one year and I had access to these stacks of essays and we're just sitting around the house enjoying ourselves and I just start reading these. And my mind was absolutely blown. Like to take you back just a little bit further, I've described myself as spiritually curious but very agnostic. most of my life, I was an atheist in my younger years. And then as I got older, that shifted to well, we can't really know. So I'm going to call myself agnostic. But had curiosities about spirituality. As an artist, I think I've always been drawn to dabbling in that world, and kind of seen seeking what more is out there. And so when I started to read these essays that ranged from personal experiences of near-death experiences to the science of consciousness and kind of seeing how the information overlapped and also just, think it's, I don't think a lot of people know how much research is actually being done in a systematic way on these topics. So that was really surprising to me to know that this was of interest scientifically at all. And I started I mean, to say I became obsessed is a bit of an understatement. It really consumed my life. I just wanted to take in all the information I could, read all the books I could. And I started to notice the shifts emotionally that it was having. I struggled with mental health for a lot of my life, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. And... Stephanie (02:29.345) as I got older just really felt that this was something I was gonna have to deal with my entire life. And that, you know, how can I live a good life anyways, if I'm not gonna be a happy person. And as I started to learn these things, I started to see the shift in my mental state, my mental health, my daily happiness. Just like, not to sound cliche, but I really started to see the magic in my day to day life. And then how it impacted my relationships with my friends, my husband, my family. And that was a very long-winded way of saying, I felt really inspired from that point forward to share it with people, not expecting it to grow the way that it has, but it was out of a, okay, one, this is just really, really interesting. And I think that people would be surprised to know what is being done scientifically in this area. And then also just, well, if it's helped me, then I think that someone else could benefit from this too. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (03:44.546) Yeah, fascinating. You mentioned the Bigelow Institute. I was just listening to a podcast yesterday with Dr. Eben Alexander, who I'm going to be meeting tomorrow, was talking about those exact essays. I'm just curious if what stood out? Was there one or two? I don't know who actually won the essay award, but were there some aspects of this near-death experience, evidence and research that really stands out for you? Stephanie (04:03.685) Well, Jeffrey Mishlove won just so that you have that information. Great essay, he really kind of breaks down each category of evidence in a really digestible way. But the first one that I read, I actually don't know if it made it into the essays. It was just some, was just one that was available to me. A woman, my God, the name is escaping me, but it was a personal near death experience. And as I read through this, there was something so soothing to the soul about this idea that we are so much more than what we think we are and that this reality is not as it is. And she was talking about purpose and our purpose being as simple as, know, trying more food and learning things. And it was just, they were just like the most humble of purposes. It wasn't like be president and you know, like do these massive, massive things and be famous. It was really these humble, just how can we experience life as humans in these bodies in a way that is meaningful and connected with ourselves and each other. And there was something really, really. comforting about that. was like a knowing is how I can describe. I was like, can, I can relax. felt, it felt like a truth if I'm being totally candid. And then to read kind of the follow up, like the more scientific or philosophical ones, like Bernardo Castrop has a really good one where he talks more about idealism and reality being nothing more than our perception, you know, like objective reality. is actually only subjective reality that we have all agreed upon that this illusion is just an agreed illusion. So to read those, it was just a fundamental shift in the way that I completely viewed reality, which was materialism and from an agnostic point of view. So I'd say those two really stood out, but I've read, I've read a lot, you know, from the people who have visions of deceased loved ones. Stephanie (06:21.249) as they are nearing death. Christopher Kerr has a really beautiful essay, working with children in hospice care. That one really stood out for me, or one's about reincarnation, where children have birthmarks that correspond with these lives that they remember. Like this is physical evidence of a past life. And if there is a past life, then our soul, that suggests that our soul does continue on for longer. than just this one. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (07:00.962) Yeah, let's stay on near-death experiences, because I know that you've mentioned researchers like Bruce Grayson, Jeffrey Long. They've been studying these for decades, and it seems like, from everything I understand, that there are a lot of similarities about what people experience after death. And there's, of course, a range of case studies where it's been very clear that consciousness exists when there's no brain activity. Maybe you can start explaining to us like some of the details of this science and what are the stories that we're hearing from people who have died and returned. Stephanie (07:33.617) Mm hmm. So I mean, as you mentioned, the similarities like that is what is so fascinating about the stories of near death experiences is the consistency among stories. And these consistencies, you know, you can go back to the work of Raymond Moody, who started doing this in the 70s, I believe before social media before the internet, like before there was really a way for this information to be widely known and people were still reporting the same experiences. So some of these experiences include a detaching from the physical body, so an out of body experience. A lot of people who have these out of body experiences and come back are able to describe what was going on in the room around. around them, some of them can be verified if they're in medical situations, you know, in hospital having surgery, a pull out of their body towards something like this kind of uncontrollable like urge to go somewhere. And then they are pulled into what they only describe as a sort of afterlife. And this can look different for different people. Some people describe garden, people have described seeing water just like different scenes. In some of these near death experience essays, it's been talked about, you are shown what is comforting to you to ease you into that other realm. And then they are often greeted by deceased family members. And this is the part that gets me and my kind of more analytical, skeptical science mind is that people pretty much only see people that have died. So you would expect, for example, a child who is nearing death or has a near-death experience to see their parents, as that is what would bring them comfort. But they will see an aunt who has passed or a sibling, grandparents. So to me, this suggests there is another realm where this consciousness exists and they're being greeted by in this afterlife. Stephanie (09:53.743) I mean, even Alexander is such a good guest to have on because I've read his book and he travels deeper than I think really anyone ever has into the afterlife because most people will be greeted and then told, it's not your time, you must go back. They describe a physical border, an area they can't go past or they won't be able to go back and then they are brought back to their bodies. But there's a lot of other details. People describe seeing loved ones, if they knew their grandma only in her elderly form, they'll often see her younger and vibrant and in a healthier state. there's all these little strange kind of consistencies that don't make sense if this was purely a hallucination. You would expect there to be a really large variety of experiences. And They do vary, of course, like no two people have exactly the same near-death experience, but the overall experience is so similar to the point where it really suggests that there is an alternate realm that our consciousness goes when our physical body dies. Stephanie (11:06.929) yeah, I missed that. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (11:09.624) What I'm fascinated by is the idea of the life review, which seems to be fairly consistently reported. Tell us about the life review. Stephanie (11:12.945) So the life review is described as this 360 kind of panorama, panoramic movie where they can see everything all at once happening of everything they've experienced and not just from their point of view, but from the point of view of others. So if you have hurt someone in your life, you will experience how your actions affected them. And all of this is done. it's described as being done from a place of like, it's meant to be learning. You're not being judged, you're there to judge yourself and see how you did and to take the lessons from those experiences. And some people say they have their guide there, some people are alone. But yeah. Stephanie (12:05.232) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (12:06.444) Yeah, it really does give us information about possibly what our soul's purpose is here, which is to really evolve and the amount of learning that would take place through the experience of having your life being replayed over again, but experiencing it through the vantage point of others. You know, there's biblical verses of this, obviously. you the golden rule do unto others as you would have them done unto you is something that like kind of reflects this idea because what you do to one another, you experience it yourself. It's almost like we're holding up a mirror and you're, you you hurt your brothers or sisters, you know, you're also hurting yourself. Like, so in everything do, do to others what you would have done unto you for this sums up the law and the prophets. And Stephanie (12:40.153) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (13:00.716) you wonder about how important this is in like expanding our own like understanding of like the nature of reality and purpose and goal of humanity in itself. That life review kind of sometimes reflects this idea of like karma too in another kind of way of thinking about it from maybe different perspectives or cultures like what's your idea of karma and does that exist? Stephanie (13:23.271) yeah, karma does exist. But I don't think it's what people think. There's so much that you said there that I want to talk about. But karma, from what I understand, is not necessarily a like, in this lifetime, you know, it's if you do something in this life, then in the next one, the life that you choose will have to reflect a balancing that needs to be done. So if you hurt someone in a certain way in your next life, you might have to experience something similar. That being said, I do believe that our thoughts are energy and they can be detected, they affect what's going on in the physical world. So in that sense, if we are constantly putting out negative energy, I do think there is an attraction there that can bring that into your own life and vice versa. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (14:21.454) I agree, but it's sometimes it's very difficult for me sometimes to be able to explain this to other people. But I think there's a way. And as a psychologist, I work with a lot of trauma victims. So it's very hard for people to understand. Like if something has happened to me, you know, let's say it's a sexual assault or violence or prolonged physical abuse or neglect throughout childhood. You know, there's often this self blame that occurs that can really impact someone's ability to kind of move forward. It's like they're still in survival mode and there's a lot of self blame and they don't know how to get out of it. And so when some of these concepts come up, when we're talking about spirituality, and this idea that we're putting out an energy force and there's some potential law of attraction, that really feeds the self blame narrative. I I get the sense it's a lot more than just that and I've seen it help people transform. I want to get your thoughts on it. Stephanie (15:15.601) So I think that to call that karma would be incorrect. You know, I do think that and I do want to be careful how I tread here because I don't want it to sound dismissive, but if we look at it from a spiritual perspective, we do choose our lives and we do choose the... you know, the struggles that we go through. And that doesn't mean that you chose to have these terrible things happen to you. There's still another person on the other end of that who had their own struggles and who inflicted pain and who aren't, you know, doing so well in their own journey. And that's not necessarily happening to you because of karma. It's just there is a purpose. There's something in this to work through to get to the other side of it. There's a reason that your soul chose that life. And it's not because you did something bad. That's what I believe. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (16:23.842) That's I believe as well. This is something I've communicated in my writing because in some very intimate conversations I've had with people who are surviving, you know, traumatic events in their life. One of the things I find out is the events in them in themselves end up being catalysts for them, where they were able to love deeper, experience greater empathy. They took that pain, that hurt, and it was transformed into creation of like beautiful things that served humanity. or served relationships. And it sounds, you you don't ever wish difficult times or challenges on any one person, but the number of times that a person who's gone through hell in their life and they've said to me, I wouldn't change anything, absolutely speaks to this aspect of that there are very important lessons. that we go through in our lives. And it's like facing the dark night of the soul or going through tragedy or going through trauma allows us to kind of work through things that could otherwise keep us held down. And the growth that comes from that experience can be transformational. But when we talk about things from such a victim mindset or we create that victim mindset in a culture, I feel like it prevents people from that growth. Stephanie (17:44.049) I totally agree. And I really struggle with how I talk about this because it can be hard for people to hear if you're like, no, there, is something here for you to work through and there's something good on the other side. And just to speak to what you said for my own experience, um, I went through something really challenging in my early, sorry, my late teens, my early 20s, something that, um, I had PTSD from and that I struggled with for a really long time. And now. you know, 15 years later, I am so grateful for that experience, because I don't know if I would be here talking about this with the knowledge that I have and the way that I feel about myself and my life and my mental health, if I hadn't gone through that and then had to fight my way out of it. And it was the catalyst to send me on the journey that ultimately I went on in life. And I am learning or figuring out how to talk about that. I never want to dismiss someone's experience as well, your soul chose this, but there is a lot of evidence that, you you look at the work of Dr. Lisa Miller, if you're not familiar, I am such a fan of hers, but she talks about the... the spiritual, to have a connection to spirituality, the benefit it has on our brain and the protective power it has over things like depression and addiction. And she's found through her research that the most protection from these things, strongest, like our brain gets stronger when the catalyst to connecting with our spirituality is through something really, really hard, something really quite traumatic. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (19:40.182) Yeah, you often get that question. mean, we all, I think, have this question. It's like, why do bad things happen to good people? And we are looking for greater answers to these really difficult questions. And if there's something that religion or spirituality can provide us to help us understand that it does ease suffering and help people be able to kind of work through and move through that. I met somebody who has shared these insights with me. And I remember I asked her the same question, why would anyone choose to go through such horrific experiences? And her answer to me, I thought was profound. And we're going to get into like research around reincarnation or past lives. But what she said to me is in all of eternity, The moment, this life that we live, the one that you've incarnated into right now, it is the snap of a finger. Like it is so instantaneously fast in the greater sense of all things. And the blessing to be able to incarnate into what she said earth was the school of hard knocks. Like the greatest growth occurs in this physical reality, the density of it, the illusion of separation that exists, but the growth and the learning that comes from this experience is incomparable to any other experience that your soul could go through. So we often choose hardships as a way to be able to obtain that type of knowledge and wisdom. So there's a much greater purpose. to everything you go through. And what's interesting from a mental health perspective, when people are sitting in front of me, the event had already happened. So, sometimes it happened three weeks, three months, three years, 30 years ago, right? But it's gone. But we continue to suffer, like human beings continue to suffer in the now, even though things have happened a long time ago, temporally. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (21:46.112) So part of our, I think, challenge and our goal is to try to live fully in the only moments that exist, which is the eternal now. And so it's important to think about that from a perspective. You have a choice. Like something happened to you that's painful, does that get to define you? Does that get to control you for the rest of your life? Or are you now faced with opportunities? And I still believe that there is one... one idea, one belief system that really protects people from the depths of suffering. And that's the belief that everything is happening for you. Like once you see it from that perspective, then it changes everything in the way that you interpret your reality. Every single relationship, every event, everything that is previously annoyed you, now is seen through a different lens, like a flight getting canceled. or being stuck in traffic. If it's happening for me, how can I grow now? What has it saved me from? If you end a relationship and you're really grieving that loss, well, what's greater on the other side or what's to be learned from that? So you were mentioning very early on here when we started this podcast about how things have changed for you just being exposed to the science of life after death. So I'm just curious what some of your lessons are that have helped you. Stephanie (23:06.501) God, I just love everything you said. Stephanie (23:12.613) Yeah, I mean, it really is this, this knowing, this big picture knowing that there is so much more than just this moment right now that, like you said, everything that is happening in my life is happening for a reason. There is a purpose to that for my soul to learn what it needs to learn so that I can continue to progress. So just that knowing that everything is exactly as it should be. really helps not get stuck in the spiral that can happen. Stephanie (23:53.617) Mm. Stephanie (24:00.367) I'm drawing a bit of a blank. on what to say next. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (24:14.264) I have a question about, you know, life after life after life. Does it does it shift how you experience the moments of your life, knowing that there's more than just this? Stephanie (24:20.741) Mm-hmm. Stephanie (24:28.313) You know, what has really shifted for me? I mean, yes, the short answer, because experiencing every moment feels a little more magical. To know that there is a reality beyond this one, and we're just here for a moment in time to experience what we're meant to experience. There's like something really playful and really fun and really magical about that. And then also just on the very basic level of death and thinking about that I am going to die one day and whatever will come next, this life is just this quick little moment with these people that I love in this body. It's made me present to my life in a way that I don't think I was before. Like I really just appreciate. every moment as the experience that it is. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (25:36.972) which is a shift in consciousness. And it's been a shift in consciousness for me because there was sometimes a pressure that I felt about to achieve certain things or to be certain things or moments that, you know, I attached some threat to created a sense of kind of just consistent kind of anxiety. Like this is it, like one life to live felt. you know, really pressure filled for me, because then it's like, you have to do it all, or you have to experience it all. But we have this indisputable evidence, Dr. Ian Stevenson's one who spent his entire career investigating children who claim to remember past lives. And it's not just casual research. I mean, we're looking at medical records, police reports, interviewing witnesses, tell us about his approach. Stephanie (26:20.497) So Ian Stevenson spent his career studying thousands of reincarnation cases in young children. And some of the most compelling work of his that I've read is what you just talked about where there are medical reports or police reports. There are years of interviews with firsthand witnesses to really understand the connection, if there were any, the people they remember being to make sure that story stayed consistent. dedicated his life to being as diligent as possible with his research. And he discovered, so what I love about scientists like Ian Stevenson is that they'll always tell you, don't know. But reincarnation is the best explanation for the evidence that I have. And some of that evidence, as I spoke about earlier, is this physical evidence of wounds of birthmarks that correspond with wounds of how they died. So for instance, if a child's like, I remember this life, I was shot in the chest, I was this person, he'll look at medical records, he'll find someone by that name who has, you know, a wound that matches this birthmark in the chest. He'll interview firsthand witnesses, know there's no connection, and this child just knows so much more about this person than is reasonable. And when he interviews the family, the information's correct, like you just look at things like that and this isn't just one story. are, you know, he has thousands of reincarnation cases that he's studied. And when you look at the mountain of evidence, you really have to, I think any reasonable person would conclude that there really could be something here. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (28:15.182) Yeah, and there's fascinating documentation of past life regression that has occurred in my field. And to really step back and to consider that how we present ourselves in this world can be influenced more than from just this life, right? There's a lot of times that people are very confused. like, why am I scared of that? Or why does that affect me? Or why do I have this type of personality? as if we're completely disconnected from any other point of existence that our soul might have gone through. And when they've done these past life regressions or these interviews with younger children, you know, they're able to explain like some details of like past traumas or challenges or things that they've gone through that you can see are being played out in this life. There are certain patterns that exist in relationships. And often it's you're living this life with the same group of souls that have been experienced in those other lifetimes, like as if there is an intimate soul group that we choose to reincarnate with for these lessons. Stephanie (29:25.509) Yeah, it's pretty wild. Just the reincarnation cases where the kids have languages that they didn't know or dialects that aren't consistent with their region. They'll have hobbies or interests that correspond to the person whose life they remember, or as children will have fear of water and then grow up and start talking about a life where they drowned. But I don't know if you're familiar with Michael Newton, who does Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls. So these are some excellent books about past life regression, but he goes farther than just the past life. He goes into exploring the spirit world in hypnotic regression, but how he got into it was discovering that his, patients that he had would have fears that were unexplainable. And as he started to regress them, of would fall into this past life space unexpectedly and discover that they had died in a really traumatic way that corresponded to this anxiety that they were carrying in their body in this life. But I love his books if you haven't read them. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (30:40.718) I'll check it out. Fascinating. I think when you talk about near-death experiences and past life science or just reincarnation-based science, it does set the foundation for other things, right? So if we say we are a soul, we're energetic, we incarnate into this body, we do it many times, maybe hundreds or thousands of times for... important reasons, we have a journey, we have things we want to accomplish, we want to experience. Then we have to ask ourselves, right, what else are we missing from the material paradigm, when it comes to just understanding human health, human relationships, human experiences. So there is this science of consciousness and intention. I think it's game changing research. It's offensive to me that it's not taught. in our school systems, that it's not taught in medical school, it's not taught in PhD programs, it's really suppressed. But the science is here, and we know that consciousness, and this is quantum physics, we know that energy, consciousness can impact matter, right? So we are actually really creators of our own reality. we have this ability to create through consciousness. Right? And I want to just start with, there's some hard science here that I want to introduce to the listeners. HeartMath Institute is an incredible organization and they've shown that just intention, so setting intentions changes DNA. Are you aware of this? Stephanie (32:30.821) Yes, yes, I'm familiar with the research. So I'll just elaborate then. I'm trying to remember exactly what the study was, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they had multiple strands of DNA and they had the control and then they set kind of their prayer, their intention, and were able to physically unwind the DNA. Is that, am I remembering that correctly? Stephanie (33:01.773) It's insane. Wild. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (33:04.642) You are, it's it's amazing that, unwinding two of three DNA strands while leaving one untouched. So it's like the implication here is consciousness can rewrite genetic codes. Like, and imagine if we can do that. Like, and Lin McTaggart's like peace intention experiments. Stephanie (33:16.283) Mm-hmm. Stephanie (33:25.443) Yeah, I was just gonna bring her up. Yeah, she's, so she does the power of eight, where she'll, yeah, set these intention experiments where you gather in groups, she finds it's the most powerful in a group setting, and has found that people have, you know, helped each other heal. It can be physical, it can be emotional, maybe there's just something in their life they need help with, but there have been... there have been results of these intention experiments where people have had these, you know, for lack of better words, miraculous outcomes. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (34:09.292) Yeah, absolutely fascinating work. listen, if you come with an open mind and a curious mind, and you actually ask, like set the intention in your life for more wisdom and more information, what's happened to me is it's consistently provided. Do you believe in synchronicities? Stephanie (34:26.947) I do, yeah. Stephanie (34:32.797) So synchronicity to me is like these little these little moments that you might blow off as a coincidence, but it's actually the universe, this these conversations from the universe, these little like, letting you know that you're that they're there that you're in dialogue with, excuse me, with this higher power. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (34:35.118) Tell us what that means and your experience with them. Stephanie (34:59.073) it's, my god, sorry. So yeah, to me, it's these little, these little touchstones throughout our day, throughout our lives that tell us that we are not alone, that there is a greater consciousness, there's a greater oneness that we are connected to. And if we are able to listen, there is a conversation, a dialogue back and forth and what I really love about this conversation and what has really opened me up more to being available to these synchronicities is I was listening to a podcast, I can't remember his name now, with a philosopher. And the idea is that we can trust all our senses, all our senses, our eyes, our ears, you know, they're giving us information about the world that we live in. And then we have this other sense, this one that is connected to, you know, physical or sorry, metaphysical experiences, this one that is connected to spirituality. Like we have these so-called unexplained experiences that we try to explain away, but what if we listen to that as another sense that is trying to teach us something about the world, just like any other sense. We are. it is showing us what else is out there and what we are connected to. So once I thought of a ability to sense a spiritual experience as another sense trying to give me information about the world that we live in, recognizing and moving with the synchronicities felt, it just felt a lot easier. It felt more than just, you know, a fluffy concept. I was like, no, we actually have the ability to listen to something greater than ourselves that is happening. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (37:02.444) Yeah, two thoughts on this. One thing that's growing in my field is the use of psychedelics in mental health. I'm against the idea of externalizing, like seeking outward for something that I believe exists inward. But plant-based medicines, in particular psychedelics, when used appropriately under I think guidance and support. The people who report a response to this that shifts their nature of reality are all kind of communicating something similar that you've just been mentioning. And that's the oneness of all things. the wonderment of all of this and how everything is interconnected. Like when people say, when people are nihilistic and say that there's no meaning to anything, going through that psychedelic therapy, people walk out of there saying, there is great meaning to everything. And it changes their entire perception and there's a wonderment to life. And so when I started thinking about God from the perspective of all loving, instead of attaching any sense of fear, like growing up, I grew up in the Catholic church, there was a, you know, a bit of a fear-based consciousness that could sometimes be like influencing that institution, which is like, you you do these things, these rituals, or you behave in a way to prevent horrible outcomes, like going to hell or being punished. And when you shift your consciousness away from a punishing God to an all loving God, and who's always trying to communicate with you to help you as long as you let God in, as long as you accept the spirit within you, then you are actually guided and synchronicities are often, Hey, we want you to learn this lesson. Hey, this is here for you. Pay attention. We're here to help you. Everything is here to help you. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (39:14.126) We're going to take you on the next step. Do you surrender to it? Like a surrender to the flow of this existence, this life, give up control. You are not separate. We are all connected and everyone. who enters into your life as part of that grander plan. And then boy, the wonderment that occurs and the possibilities that exist when you surrender to that idea. And synchronicities are things that just certainly just are, you know, sometimes statistically impossible for them to happen. But that's when we're still from a material perspective. We're not really considering the spiritual life and everything that exists. And so if we have this powerful ability to create in our own lives, that consciousness can influence our reality, then we have to take a step back and we have to think, boy, if we're energetic beings, how can we influence other people? And what I've been exposed to and spoken about on some other podcasts with some other experts is this idea of a biofield that we as human beings actually vibrate a field, a frequency. that is felt by others around us can be measured up to, you know, eight feet long. And so people enter into each other's biofield and we are interacting with each other. There's a oneness to that. And sometimes, you know, someone's biofield might be one of great, shame or anger or division or depression. And we experience that person's energy. not really consciously if we're not awakened to it. And sometimes we take that on as our own. And now we're like, we're working from a mental health paradigm, as if like our own abilities to connect to the. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (41:04.078) energy of people around us is somehow our own. And so a greater awareness of all of these things is to remember that we are emitting an energy and we have this ability, a responsibility even, to be able to work with that energy to improve humanity. And so that's my thoughts about this, is that we can probably influence the health of others, but we're starting to see studies where we're able to experience this, you know, in the physical world with like plants, for example, like Dr. Gary Schwartz and water are able to influence how plants grow or how water is. is how water is the molecular structure of water, for example. Do you want to share some of your understandings of those scientific studies? Stephanie (41:58.863) not sure I'm totally familiar with the ones you're talking about. Is it just changing the molecular structure of water through intention or through words through like love versus hate will shift the way that the water works? But if you could elaborate, I'd love to. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (42:12.354) That's one of them. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (42:23.02) Yeah, well, I'm to start with the plant studies because this is hard science that I can certainly include in the show notes. The study was the University of Arizona, Dr. Gary Schwartz. So he analyzed six plant growth experiments. Seeds that were sent loving intention grew 56 millimeters compared to 48 millimeters for the controls who did not receive that. So there's something called a field effect. On the days that the researchers did the intention, all plants grew better, even those not targeted. And there's a statistical difference. the p-value here is .00001, meaning it was not by chance, right? There's no coincidence here. it's your intention around that plant, what you sent energetically improved the way that that plant grew and the health of that plant. And we have seen some similar studies with our ability to influence the molecular study or the molecular structure of water. And I don't have those in front of me. was hoping potentially maybe you had some information on that. Stephanie (43:42.649) I do not, but I actually, have heard about the plant study that you just referenced. I believe Lyd McTaggart spoke about it on one of her podcasts. And I just love studies like this because as you mentioned about the biofield, the energetic field that we emit, it's just so clear the effect that our thoughts have on the physical world around us. And just to kind of reiterate the importance. of the energy that we put out into the world and how could the world be affected if we all knew this, believed it, and lived our life with these types of intentions. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (44:32.558) So let's talk about that practically. Because what I'm doing is I'm trying to explore certain practices that have robust, powerful effects on the experience of your life. One of them that I believe to be highly, highly effective that also has been measured scientifically is gratitude practice. So I try to start my day and end my day with an internal gratitude practice. Like, so bookends, because where your, you know, where your energy, where your mind goes, is where your energy is going to flow. Right? So that's, we have our ability to control attention. can't control everything that happens to around us, but we can choose to control what we're going to focus on. So my, my morning day or my early morning work is just generating a gratitude for everything that I have in my life and, you know, all the blessings that I have. And of course, you know, there's my family and my friends and my home and my animals and the work that I do and feeling guided and all those things. Those are really important. But I remember somebody telling the story about, you know, loss of their legs. Somebody who was in an accident was paralyzed. And you you go through life, just being able to freely move your body and walk, and you don't really have full consciousness around how amazing that is full gratitude, just for your ability to walk until you lose your ability to walk. Then you would do almost anything to go back in time and to experience that again. And if you did, like if that was granted to you, the miracle that would be experienced, right? my God, it would bring you to tears, the ability to walk again. And you would probably create a life of running, of walking, of moving with like full gratitude. And it would just completely shift and alter your experience of life. I think we do this in relationships too, with people who are, you know, very special and meaningful to us, like we keep Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (46:54.894) We take them for granted until they're not there anymore. And then there's that lesson, that very hard lesson. And we're in grief and loss. What I would do to just be with that person again. Now, imagine if you brought that into your life every day, that shift in consciousness of gratitude, then your life is a miracle. And you're able to experience these, all these things through a new lens. And so that's like one example, I think of. like these day-to-day practices of a shift in consciousness that raise energy that can have like a profound effect on your health and your mental health. But I feel like we probably have the ability to also assist others through our own intentions and our own minds, like just a blessing or wishing well on another person has the same effect on us. Stephanie (47:42.161) Yeah, no, I love what you say. I've also developed a gratitude practice in my own life. And one, as you were talking about the taking things for granted, this is where death can really teach us how to have those things on the forefront because what death is really teaching us is about impermanence and change and how we have no control day to day on what is actually gonna happen and how long we're gonna be here. and how long the people we love are gonna be here. And not to dwell on those things in a morbid way, but just to know that everything we love is going to leave us one day. And how can we be totally present with those things today in this one moment, this one moment that we're given for certain right now. So I, yeah, I love what you just said about the gratitude practice. And. I do believe that learning about the afterlife and learning about souls and soul life and why we're here and the bigger picture can also help us move through life with less judgment on others and to really look at other people, to really meet other people as just a soul on their own journey, just like we are. And if you can meet everyone with those two things, just a soul, and this person is also walking towards their death. you meet people with a tenderness, a love and a kindness that I don't know if I quite had the same way before I started doing this work. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (49:25.014) Yeah, I think it's life changing. I think it's spoken about and written about across religions and across cultures and has been for centuries. It's some of the most profound wisdom that's handed down generation to generation. That's why I believe there are intentional efforts to keep a lot of this from the masses. There are just control efforts that from you know, people who are in powerful positions who want to keep us separate from each other and from our abilities to create and do good things. And that's the greater spiritual war that I think is happening outside consciousness. Stephanie (49:57.093) I just had this conversation with someone where I was like, my big conspiracy theory is that this information is suppressed so that we don't know our true nature. We don't know the connectedness of everything, the oneness of all of us so that we stay separate, we stay divided, we stay easier to control. We stay more medicated, we stay more depressed, we stay more obsessed with consumerism and material items. I fully believe that there is an effort to do this because it's keeping the status quo as is. Stephanie (50:40.361) I agree. Same. Honestly, and I think that part of my not to interrupt you, but I really want to bring spirituality to the mainstream and away from religion. I do think that there is research that being in a spiritual space in community in a religious way does have benefits. But the Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (50:42.69) Yeah, I think that's actually part of my calling. You know, when I sit. Stephanie (51:05.733) The harm it has caused is undeniable and the divisiveness that it causes. So when people look at something spiritual and immediately connect it to something religious, there's that, because I was like this, there's this pushback, this, I don't even want to look at the research, I don't even want to hear what you have to say because we're throwing the spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater. And I really want to bring that spiritual core back to society because it is completely separate from religion. It is the nature of our true selves. We literally have a sense built into us to be connected to the spirituality. We physically benefit, our brains physically benefit. We have evolved to be spiritual beings. It is our true nature. And if we all realized our true nature, I think the world would look a lot different than it does today. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (52:10.06) Yeah, there's some simple truths for me. Anything that is has a foundation in fear and division is not truth. Anything that divides anything that harms is not in truth. Anything that is based on the unification of all things and our connection to God that is of love and forgiveness is truth. And I can feel the difference in my body. Like I can feel almost like an energy that goes through me when I'm exposed to Stephanie (52:12.272) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (52:39.984) that energy. And with manmade religions, let's face it, they're manmade based off of teachings from what I think are spiritual masters. You know, I believe in Jesus Christ and the teaching of Jesus Christ, but I also believe those teachings can be distorted. think institutions of control can be developed from it and people can be harmed. One of the things that pulled me away from the Catholic Church, for example, was I was treating victims of clergy sex abuse. And the priests were protected legally, right? It was just, you know, the degree of institutional corruption under the protection of, you know, so for God or religion, you know, is, and the power that can be used over other people, that is not Jesus's teachings, right? And I never felt close to God doing the ceremonies or the rituals that came with church, for example. In fact, it made me feel more disconnected from God. But if I am reading passages or I'm sitting in meditation or I'm sending intentions or I'm prayer or I'm in the flow and aspects of my life, then I can feel closer to all of that. And the challenges that I face with formalized religion is it can be very judgmental too, where there's Stephanie (53:55.579) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (54:02.718) know, people assuming this, know, that there's greater knowledge, and then they institute that judgment over others and can even enter into rejection, which just feels completely opposite of what, you know, the message that Jesus was even preaching. So, and— Stephanie (54:14.809) And just the complete opposite, sorry, it's complete opposite of what people who've had near-death experiences tell us as well, is that it's all about love, it's all about connection, it's all about literally loving each other and taking care of each other, no matter who we are and what we're doing. And these are people who have said time and time again, who have had these experiences, these subjective experiences, but there's so many of them, we have to believe that there's an objective reality where they are going and coming back with this information. that we are judging each other too much and that this division is not the true way forward. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (54:58.412) Yeah, back to institutions of control. So one of my largest major issues that I'm very provocative about and talking about is the harms that are done by mainstream psychiatry and the pushing of drugs. And so I see emotions as energy. I think they're necessary for creation and transformation. And I think the suppression of those or the muting of those are root causes of disease. And I think spiritually we experience emotions to benefit us. They're healthy. They get us back on our soul's path. They're great indicators or signals of events in our life that we have to pay attention to. but they're also necessary for human love, empathy, connection and bonding. Like we bond with each other through emotional states. So if you do anything to numb the experience through any type of drugs, that's evil. That's a control mechanism in my opinion. That doesn't improve mental health and wellbeing. That's actually going to harm it. And we have all the statistics to say that's exactly what's happening. You end up creating customers for life, but we don't talk about the spiritual nature. of this about what happens when we invalidate the experience of another put a label on it that there's something within them that's broken and say here, take your pills, and then fail to even examine the long term consequence of that in any meaningful way. Instead, we stay under a paradigm that says that somehow that's medicinal, somehow there's something broken about your body that has evolved over a millennial. You know, the only reason that your body remains or we are here is because of that ability to adapt, you know, this divine aspect of our creation to somehow think that there was just mistakes that were made and your depression or your anxiety or whatever you're emotionally experiencing that's affecting your behavior is somehow an illness. To me, it just seems absolutely so evil and Stephanie (56:58.673) Mm hmm. You know, just to, just to tell a little personal story here. So years ago when I was healing from, healing from that traumatic event in my life, I did go to a doctor and I was prescribed, multiple pharmaceuticals. And I remember sitting in his office and asking, okay, I'll take these. How long, how, like, how long is the treatment? How long am I on this? And his answer was maybe the rest of your life. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (57:01.538) built on the foundation of darkness and corruption. Stephanie (57:28.849) And I just looked at him and I was like, there is no way that is correct. But it was this belief that this is how your brain is, that these are the struggles, this is the cure. And in order to keep the cure going, you'll just take it forever. And I just thought that was so unbelievable and really galvanized me to go. searching for other solutions, because there was no way I was going to accept that this was the rest of my life. And I do just want to say that I did take them, and there was a time in my life where I do believe that they helped me get from point A to point B. But the goal was to stop as quickly as possible. And I think now looking back with the hindsight and everything that I've learned, I think that what was actually missing, what I actually needed was to develop that connection to the spiritual part of myself. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (58:41.41) Yeah, I agree. And I kind of want to do some rapid fire, kind of larger questions here, just curious to know your opinion on it. So, can we, can we reconceptualize conditions like depression as like opportunities, possibly for spiritual awakening? Can we move away from like pathologizing something like depression and see it from a different lens? Stephanie (58:44.433) Sure. Stephanie (59:05.131) I absolutely believe that. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist, so I don't want to say that there's never a situation where medication is needed. I, sorry, I've lost track of the question. Stephanie (59:32.081) Mm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (59:33.742) So I'm gonna talk about how we conceptualize depression in popular culture in American society. know, everything we spoke about today on this podcast and some of the science that exists, do you think we need to re-conceptualize what actual depression is because it could actually reflect? Stephanie (59:39.889) Mm-hmm. Stephanie (59:49.382) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (59:57.13) a necessary opportunity for spiritual awakening and like changes in your life. Like that whole entire experience is there to wake you up. Stephanie (01:00:00.657) Absolutely, think that the rate of depression and anxiety in society is a symptom of a disconnection from a spiritual self and from the truth of why we are here and what this really is. And I think that if we weren't so quick to run and medicate and to look for a way out instead of a way through, I think we'd be a lot better off. So to see that, okay, there is a symptom, depression, and to look at that with curiosity, curiosity, curiosity about what that is teaching me about what I am missing in my own life and what I still need to learn and what journey, what path is it asking me to take? Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:01:01.902) I love that. I mean, that's wisdom. I mean, that's wisdom. And if mental health professionals really took that approach versus some of the approaches that we're taking right now, which are really to label people, to drug people, sometimes to get them to have to talk about things from their past, assuming that if you do that, it can change the future instead of. really understanding like how you're putting them in maybe a repetitive cycle over and over again and not expanding their consciousness to something greater. That was beautifully said. So here's another question. And I don't expect you to have the answers to this. I'm just, you know, these are just interesting questions that I ponder. So I just want to get your thoughts on those. The placebo effect. Could this actually really just be consciousness healing? Stephanie (01:01:39.705) Love it. Let's hear it. Stephanie (01:01:47.633) Ooh, mean, yes, absolutely. I think what the placebo effect is showing us is the power of our minds and everything we've been talking about, about intention. If you believe something and you have a excitement about that belief, if you start, you know, taking something and you believe it's going to change, change you in some way and you get excited about that and start seeing yourself with those results, then absolutely that is That is consciousness changing your future, your reality. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:02:28.63) Yeah, we don't think about it that way. We use this, we use the placebo effect to like compare to other interventions. Like we just, you know, we all accept that it exists, but do we really, really fully work with it? Like for me, when you look at the research with antidepressants, for example, there's never meaning meaningfully outperformed placebo, which means that when people get diagnosed with depression and they're given a placebo pill, a sugar pill, and they're not told whether it's the active. drug or not, they get better. And like, that's powerful. And we should be harnessing that and we should be understanding what actually is happening there, instead of saying, well, we're going to try to push this drug to market by, you know, fraudulently developing a trial that fits exactly what I want the outcome to be. So yeah, the power of consciousness in its aspect of healing. Can we say that death isn't real? Stephanie (01:03:24.655) Yes and no. Death in the concept of something ending, changing, shifting, a state no longer being, I think is true. But then, you know, I also think about like if time is a construct and everything is happening all at once and the future and the past are all happening now, maybe death, maybe what I just said actually isn't true. And then just also from a Does our soul die? Do we die? I don't think so. I think that we just move on to the next form and then incarnate to the next life. And then that pattern continues. That's where the name live deathless comes from. It's to connect to that deathless part of ourselves and live our life from that perspective. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:04:21.048) Here's a more challenging question. Should we be viewing suicide differently given what we're starting to know and why do you think suicide occurs? Stephanie (01:04:30.972) So I do, should we look at it differently? In what way? Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:04:43.98) Well, right now there's a, people can lose their rights and their freedom around suicide, for example, or just by mentioning like even just this idea of thinking about it, right? We see it almost like it's a condition of like a, an illness or a mental illness. And often people who are experiencing suicidal thinking or like wanting to escape the body and not wanting to be here are deeply pathologized, judged and shamed and there's a hopelessness that can be created around it. So what I start thinking about is what if we, in a similar way that we reframe depression, we reconceptualize it, is there a better way to think about a person's desire to leave the body? Stephanie (01:05:25.423) I mean, it's definitely a cry for help, whether you look at that spiritually or in this world. But I don't know if this is gonna answer your question, but I do just wanna talk about how studying near death experiences greatly impacts someone's desire to end their own life. So this is, I believe Bruce Grayson talks about this in his book, After. where one, people who have attempted unsuccessfully come back knowing that that was not the right choice, that they are meant to work through their hardships, they are here for a purpose, and the struggles that they are going through are meant for them and for a reason. So they come back not wanting to do that again. And then on the other side of that, people who have suicidal ideation that is untreatable essentially in any other capacity, learning about near-death experiences also have similar results where they come to the realization that this is not the path they're meant to take and that there is a greater purpose to all of this. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:06:41.458) Yeah, well said. I mean, that's exactly, you know, how I think about it, because there's a relationship to pain and suffering. Like our relationship to that pain, to that suffering really matters. So if you see it as meaningless, and if you see that your life is going to exist only to experience that pain in the future, It tends to drive a desire to want to escape the body. Why would you continue to live in a manner in which you feel so empty, unloved and in such pain? But what you're talking about is fundamentally a shift to the relationship of that experience. You mean there could be potential meaning in this. There's something I need to work through. There's an opportunity I can grow. It's temporary, not permanent. And actually it's very like important for my greater soul's purpose. And so if you're completely disconnected from those ideas, well, that's a lonely feeling because we carnate into this physical body under the illusion of separation. And what I find is that so much of people's suffering tends to occur relationally. Like, a loss of that connection to each other, being hurt by loved ones, feeling empty and directionless and not being part of community, not being part of family, not having close friendships in the people suffer in the context of loss, ending of relationships, losing friendships, losing community. So it just speaks to the nature of how interconnected we are and how important relationships are. Stephanie (01:08:12.665) Yeah, absolutely. And Dr. Lisa Miller talks about this when we really develop that connection to our spiritual cores and start engaging in dialogue with the universe, we realize that we aren't alone. We could never be alone. There is no alone. We are connected, as you said, to everyone and everything. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:08:42.158) Okay. And this has been a fascinating conversation. It's probably the first of maybe more that we could have together in the future. We can deep dive into some specific aspects of what we talked about. But I'm just curious, what do you think is the most important message that you want people to take away from this conversation? Like what's the one thing that could really improve someone's life starting right now? Stephanie (01:09:00.337) Hmm. To no matter where you are on your belief journey about a afterlife or these other realms, I know some of the stuff can sound really out there. I encourage no matter where you are on that scale to just start reading a little bit about the research and reading the stories of what people say who come back from these near death experiences because it has so much to teach us about why we are here. the bigger picture, that love is the underlying energy of everything. And once you start diving into that, you realize that there is a purpose to all of this. There is a purpose to the struggle, the pain. You feel more connected to the people in your life. You have more presence and reverence for the things that you are going through, just the life that you are living. So I encourage an open mind and just to get curious and just read a little bit about the research because I think once people start going down that path, they don't have to go full in. There is an afterlife, but there is so much to teach us just about our true nature as spiritual beings and how that can impact our connection to ourselves and each other. Stephanie (01:10:28.625) Um, you know, it's funny, I think about this a lot because it really was just a passion project of just like sharing to like a hundred followers and not really thinking much of it. And it has grown to a community in a really beautiful way. So I do think about what I want to do. Um, I'm just going to keep going with what I've been going. I share a lot of the scientific research, the things that I'm reading, the papers that I'm reading. And then also just as we spoke about the direction that I want to take with it is about bringing. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:10:29.474) I love it. What's next for Live Deathless? Where are you going with all this? Stephanie (01:10:58.133) spirituality to a 3D world, for lack of better words, to kind of help people wake up to the truth of why we are here and then how do we integrate that back into the world that we're all living in and how I can share in a way that is meaningful and impactful in that sense. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D,ABPP (01:11:26.222) And I want to encourage everyone to check her out on Instagram. Liv Deathless. What is the actual handle? Is it? Liv.Deathless. Check it out. You'll get lost in it as I've gotten lost in it. And I always am looking forward to new content that she posts. Stephanie, want to thank you so much. I am really, really grateful for this radically genuine conversation. Stephanie (01:11:29.411) It's live.deathless. Stephanie (01:11:49.659) Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.