Latest / Learn Literacy Podcast / 25. Katie Takayanagi - Making Reading Accessible
Transcript
- Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy Podcast, where we focus on language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. So I am excited today for an interview and conversation with an Orton Gillingham fellow, Katie Takayanagi in New York City. So welcome Katie. Thank you for being here today. Katie Takayanagi: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Awesome. So we met through some work that we did together on the Orton Gillingham Diversity Committee. And that was an interesting time trying to think about ways to reach different people and connect different people to Orton Gillingham and especially providing service to students and training to teachers, but before we get into talking about some of that, why don't we start with your own journey and how you learned about Orton Gillingham and got into this whole thing? Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, sure. I had always known that I wanted to be a teacher, but it took me a little while to kind of land on what exactly I I wanted to teach. and growing up I had always really enjoyed school. but my best friend for a lot of my childhood was someone who had ADHD and is really, really smart, but school was not the greatest place for her and she ended up leaving school during high school and so I got really interested in alternative education or ways that people who maybe aren't kind of like cut out for sort of the traditional school you know, ways that people sort of educate that population effectively. So basically I had just sort of some different experiences, just sort of trying out teaching in different contexts. And I decided that I wanted to become a middle school science teacher, and I was really interested in working with a sort of urban population of kids, but doing some sort of progressive things with science education. And I went to a really wonderful master's program that was focused on inquiry based science education. and I left my graduate program and I had my first teaching job, and I was really excited about it. It really seemed like the perfect setting for me. it was in a kind of a depressed formerly industrial. city. and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: but it it was a school that was very focused on science in particular and really it seemed like an exciting place to work. And then I got into the classroom and I realized I just it was just so hard. And I had, I think probably between all of my different classes, I had about 125 students. And they had a lot of needs. A lot of them had incarcerated parents or things going on at home that could then lead to behaviors in the classroom that were challenging and it just was really overwhelming for me. So I just realized I don't think I want to this after all. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: and when I left that job, I felt I basically, I felt pretty defeated. You know, I had spent two years in grad school and and I I knew that I loved teaching and I knew that I loved science. and I thought I had gotten my dream job and it just didn't seem like the right thing. And also it wasn't the easiest time in my life for my first year as a classroom teacher. But I was sort of trying to figure out what my next move would be. And I was living in Providence, Rhode Island at the time. And I found a really a really cool school in my community that was called the Met High School. And it's it was a public school. I it's still there. It's a public school. it's very focused on projects and internships. So a lot of the learning for the students comes in through these self-directed projects. I got a non-teaching job in that school and I just wanted to be around kids and in a school environment that made me feel really good while I healed and figured out my next step. And while I was there, Deb Morris was the reading specialist there and she was a fellow in training at that time. And as part of her fellow training, she was at the point where she was ready to train other teachers. And so anyone who worked in the school was invited to do her associate level training. And I had never heard of Horton Gillingham. It it really, from the very little I knew, it sounded very different from the like inquiry-based science teaching that I had done before. but I was particularly intrigued because I had a little side gig at the time where I was tutoring. And one of the students that I was tutoring was a seventh grade girl who had moved from Liberia. And so I was supposed to be teaching her math. but when I started working with her, I realized she couldn't read the word problems. Like she just could not read the words on the page. And I I had done a lot of teaching and tutoring by that point, but I really hadn't encountered someone that age who didn't know how to read. And I realized I had no idea how to help her and I was I kind of got curious about it. So I figured it was a free opportunity for anyone in the school. Your practicum student would be students in the school. So I I thought I'd give it a try. And I ended up just I loved it so much. It was like everything Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: that had been rewarding about teaching up to that point. But it was almost sort of magnified because reading kind of ties into every area. And my very first student there was 19 years old. She was a senior. And and I I got to work with another student who was a little bit younger there also. But it was really interesting doing this with high school students, especially when I was just starting out. And one really neat thing that they did in the school was students would, I think at the end of each semester, they would sort of present to their teachers. their their friends could come, their families, like any adults in their community who wanted to be there, and they would present on their own learning over the semester. And so I went to my students presentations and to hear them talk about how their confidence with their reading had grown. And then I would hear, their friends and their teachers would be chiming in and talking about the difference that they saw. it just blew me away because I felt like I didn't even know what I was doing yet. So it was just so so rewarding. I definitely got hooked and it felt like it was the right thing for me that was still it was teaching, but it was one on one. it kind of tapped into my desire to do almost like social work. You know, I figured if I if I wasn't a teacher, I probably would have become a social worker. And it also kind of tied into like I've always loved art and and I've kind of been like surrounded myself with people who are in the arts, but I didn't necessarily have enough of a passion to specifically pursue the arts. But I I realized in this teaching that there was a lot of creativity that went into it. So so it was a very lucky sort of accident that I ended up meeting Deb and and starting my OG training. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. wow. That's really neat. Yeah, I think Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Thanks. Cheryl Urbanczyk: it's interesting you mentioned you were a science teacher and I think there's something scientific about OG and the approach and it's logical and sequential and it just because that's how my brain works and it just kinda makes sense there and I had someone say to me, Well, that seems kind of dry. But it's not. So how would you s describe it then to somebody? Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, well no, I mean I love being able to talk about the fact that Orton Gillingham, Orton being a doctor, Gillingham Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: being a a teacher and essentially a linguist, and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: so it's sort of the merging of education and science and medicine. Orton Gillingham or or phonics can can have a reputation as being like drill and kill and being boring, but I mean the fact that it's individualized not only individualized to the student but also to the teacher. So to see the different ways that different teachers really put their personality into it and create different kind of rituals or routines or it's really actually I think it's really creative, and it's so flexible. Cheryl Urbanczyk: too. Katie Takayanagi: So Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that speaks to the approach concept. And Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I think a a lot of times people just kind of get used to that idea. Well, I have to follow the steps, I have to do this. And like anything that new that you learn, maybe when you're learning as a practitioner, that's so supportive, but then, Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: you master that on your own and then your brain is freed up to do that creativity and that other type of creative work and individualization Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and stuff. So that's really neat. All right. Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Cheryl Urbanczyk: So how do you see differences in your practice between when you started and now and or differences in terms of let's say important themes in OG from when you first started until now you're a fellow. So the journey takes time. So Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think one thing that I've actually noticed really just from the last few years of OGA conference presentations, which I enjoy so much. I learned so much from them. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, me too. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: I felt like when I was first learning OG, it was it's Or at least my memory of it. I realize now though that even at the end of my associate level training, there was just so much I still didn't under I mean, I had wonderful Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: training, but I I just still didn't understand kind of the whole picture. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: but it felt like at that time the training was really kind of learning the approach th of your lineage, like learning it sort of from the your seminal text and Now I feel like a lot of the presentations in the conferences and I assume in people's trainings too are really trying to incorporate more of the current research. So really it is again kind of bringing in that science and bringing in the research and and I mean of course fortunately for us, the research is really bearing out what Orton and Gilling have had figured out, a hundred years Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: ago. But but being able to really cite current research as we present on different topics. That is a change that I've seen over time that I think is a wonderful change. And I really like to be able to reference that more and more in my trainings with teachers over time because they understand more why they're doing what what we're doing. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: and and of course the difference between practicing at the associate level and just working with students versus training teachers as a fellow is Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: pretty significant. But I also did my fellow training with a different fellow. So I had trained with Deb at the associate and certified or now clinical level. And I trained with Lori Cousot at the fellow level. And she's from a different OG lineage, which was really interesting to just learn different things from her. And she and Deb are both I love them both so much. And they have very different brains and very different personalities. So I've learn so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm. Katie Takayanagi: much from both of them and I really try to merge those in the work that I do with my students personally when I'm tutoring, but then also in how I train teachers. So I know in one of your earlier interviews, you were interviewing a fellow who mentioned her blended lineage. And I was thinking, I always talk about my OG lineage. It's it's like my blended Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: family. Like in my actual, my biological family, I have a blended family with different marriages Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: and different like ethnicities and and lots of half Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: siblings and step siblings and I feel like my OG family is very much the same and I I love having that kind of richness of the the different Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hmm. Katie Takayanagi: lineages. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I would agree too. I studied with different people at different levels and I I think the perspective is really important and the Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: thinking and exposure is really Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: great. And one of my goals with some of the the work I'm doing in the podcast is try to bring some more of these understandings of the different lineages to light because I'm not Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: not sure how much people understand that. Maybe now, or maybe Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: like you said, it might not be a focus, which is okay. Like things come Katie Takayanagi: No. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and go, but it's such an interesting and important part of the OGA history and Orton Gilling Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: history to understand, maybe Orton had this thought, or Gilling had then this thought, or June Orton had that thought, and I think historically interesting to me. So Katie Takayanagi: Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's a little bit again, continuing on the the family analogies is you know, when Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: I learn more and more about my family, it helps me understand things about myself. And I think the same thing, for me as I've continued in my training and then becoming a fellow in particular and starting to know more people in the academy and sort of understand more of the history, It just adds to my kind of understanding of of where I come from in terms of that lineage. And I think you profiling different people, different OG practitioners in your podcast is such a nice way for, people like me to be able to listen and learn about other people Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm. Katie Takayanagi: in our OG family. Cheryl Urbanczyk: thanks. Yeah. It's it's really fun and I think There's so much things happening in different places and Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: it's wonderful to, let's say outside of a conference, which, you know, each session is a topic and develops our knowledge and skills. This is a different way to understand about what's happening with OG in in different places. And so Katie Takayanagi: Absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: on that note, what is the context of OG in your area? Is it embedded in schools? Do you work with schools? Do you just Do your tutoring and training? Is it well well known and and that type of thing? Katie Takayanagi: Well, I started when I started my fellow training, I started a teacher training and tutoring practice that's called Alphabet Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: City Tutors. And it was sort of well, I had gotten to the point with my tutoring where I was getting more inquiries than I had time for. And then when I started training teachers, I realized that especially being in New York City. I'll sometimes I'll work with a specific school and I'll train a whole group of teachers from that school. But many of the trainings that I do, people can sign up from anywhere. I mean, especially too, they can really sign up from anywhere. But so I have people coming from all different backgrounds, which is fascinating. So some people are classroom teachers in the public school, the private schools. Some people might be reading specialists, some people are parents. I've had a lot Neuropsychologists and occupational therapists, and really just such interesting people in my Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: classes. but so some of the people that I was training didn't really have access to practicum students, and so I thought that if I started a tutoring practice, then I could, match families with with teachers who were in training. Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's nice. Right. Katie Takayanagi: And I mean, first of all, it's New York City. technically I'm in Brooklyn, but there are just so many people here. So it's there's Cheryl Urbanczyk: Agree. Katie Takayanagi: a lot of need. and that's part of when I moved to New York, I I was sort of going into my certified level training and I was just shocked by how few fellows there were right in this area. It's New York City and the Orton Gillingham Academy is in New York State. I figured there'd be lots of people. There were really very few practitioners, it seemed, and so I thought Cheryl Urbanczyk: That's interesting. Katie Takayanagi: I wanna keep training. Absolutely Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I would have assumed like you, like, big city, there's gotta be proportionally lots of people. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. yeah, and I I also was really motivated by the idea that I wanted to to get to the point where I could train teachers Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hmm. Katie Takayanagi: who would be able to do this in school also. So it wouldn't Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: only be people, you know, privately paying for this. So there's certainly a lot more awareness. an attention on dyslexia. And so there's been a lot of demand and a lot of need for it. there are I think more and more there are schools who will have someone who's trained in OG there, but there are just even here in New York City, again, there are just so many schools, there aren't enough people who are trained or really have, what the OGA would consider full Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: training. So yeah I I I think there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of just continuing to train teachers and Cheryl Urbanczyk: I would agree. And I think I think the the awareness is there and it's kind Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: of interesting because I I do teacher trainings as well and sometimes I'll get people who are very excited about science of reading and all these kinds of things and then I feel like an old timer because it's like, okay, well, we knew about some of these things before. It's just now there a lot of awareness about it. Katie Takayanagi: it's I mean, it's a really exciting time. I hope we really take advantage of the the interest and Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: focus at this point. So, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: what do you see as urgent or pressing issues in your practice or problems of practice or things that you're still learning about or want to learn more about? I guess that's a bunch of questions at one time, Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, you mentioned that we had met through the Warden Gillingham Academy's Diversity Committee and it it was really exciting to me that that committee was forming because especially for me in New York City, but I would imagine that this plays out everywhere. just issues of access and equity. I think, I about that a lot and I think about families who contact me, who they're not able to pay for tutoring and sometimes I have practicum people in their practicum who are looking for a student and and that will work out. But I mean there are millions and millions of kids. I mean I'm sure there are many families who don't even reach out because they they don't have the funds or they just don't even know. or, teachers there are teachers who their school won't pay for this training for them and and you know finances are a barrier. So I think about those things and I actually I'm working with the fellow in training for the first time, which I'm really excited about. I had a a really wonderful fellow in training who I I worked with for several years who did observations with me. She had already been trained by Helene Schupak, who was actually the fellow who had trained Deb Morris. So she was from kind of within my lineage and and we worked together really beautifully, but I had not trained her. So So I'm I'm really excited to to actually be training a fellow for the first time. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exciting. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: And she's actually a New York City public school teacher. She's a a middle school social studies teacher and she has such amazing perspective on the system and she's really I don't come from being in a school setting Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: in in an OG capacity. I mean, I have gone, I've worked in schools, but I don't But I don't have that same experience that she has. And she's also very passionate about these equity and access issues. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: So I'm really looking forward to continuing to work, you know, with her. so those are the things that I'm thinking about a lot. And then just as a trained teachers, I'm always thinking about as I see different challenges come up for different teachers, I just think about how can I support them and teachers Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: going forward. It I mean, I think it's kind of what we're always doing. If I know everyone is always sort of tweaking what we're doing and but yeah, just to really support people as well as we can. So Well but then in terms of things that I'm interested in learning more about, I I Just started taking a a a structured word inquiry course with Pete Bowers. Yeah. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: no way. that's nice. I've taken a lot of studies with him and I know him. He's amazing. So much fun. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, I I had heard I just kept hearing his name and then I was training teachers and people kept mentioning him and the same thing has sort of happened with the writing revolution years ago when I first started tr Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: training teachers and some teachers were saying to me, Okay, I think I understand the lesson, but how do I support kids with writing? And I was like, I you know, I don't I'm not exactly sure what is the best guidance to give, but then I started hearing about the writing revolution. So I took the training and it's been hugely helpful. So I I kind of felt like, I'm hearing all of these things about structured word inquiry. And and a colleague Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: sent me a podcast that that he was interviewed on and that Pete Bowers was interviewed on. And I thought this is some sounds like it would be so complementary to what we do especially about morphology. So I feel like I'm just at the beginning of starting to explore That. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: and I also, especially for the last couple of years, have been thinking a lot about how I talk about vocabulary and reading comprehension in my trainings. And I know that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: that's something that, has been coming up, and there have been some really wonderful presentations at the conference, especially in the last few years, which I've appreciated so much. I Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: I have a wonderful friend from college who is She's now a professor and she she teaches pre-service teachers about how to teach reading. And her background is really as a researcher, particularly focusing on vocabulary and comprehension. But she decided she wanted to take my associate level course a couple of years ago. And it was really fun having her in my class, but also Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: with her lens that she was coming from. she just has so much expertise. And so she really challenged me, but also sort of helped and supported. supported with me, shared with me Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: things that, research that she drew from in how she teaches her teachers on those topics. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: so I feel like it's something that I'm I'm still really, really interested in and actively thinking about because those are areas that were not so, clearly laid out in the Gillingham manual, for example, how do you incorporate Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: those into the lesson, but we all know how important Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: they are. So Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. That's amazing. I I would agree well, first of all, agree with everything that you said. And like the morphology piece has always been fascinating to me. Katie Takayanagi: Mm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: And There was a a presentation some years ago and I don't remember the title of it, but it it was kind of like what would they think type thing about some Katie Takayanagi: Right. Cheryl Urbanczyk: of the newer understandings around morphology and and it was very interesting because I personally think there's great alignment between SWI or structured word inquiry and and what we do. It's just something different, but Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Pete brings the lens of the researcher. Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: the experience there and it's it's really neat. And then the other thing that you mentioned that resonated me with me a lot is the vocabulary and that connection to the the current conversation about oral literacy. And that's really reframed some of my own thinking about this stuff. And, we've read the articles and we hear people say you can't just assume kids come in with these oralit oral literacy skills, but we do do that, right? Well Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: they must have this and even some of the little C V C words, like cot or whatever, like C T, you know Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: That was a common word when I was little, but maybe not to anyone else anymore nowadays, right? And if Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: you're teaching vocabulary and decoding, it's a big, big ask to do all those at once. Katie Takayanagi: I guess and that's another thing that maybe has changed. Also, again, my understanding has changed, but I feel like when I first was learning OG, the conversation was more about sort of this kind of classic dyslexia profile of the student who has the really strong oral language skills but struggles with the decoding, which if you're only Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm, exactly. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: thinking about that student, then you don't have to worry all that much about developing their oral language. But now the way that we define dyslexia is much more broad and we realize that we can't Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: neglect those areas. So yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I think even the intersection with multi language learners, like you will still have, Katie Takayanagi: Absolutely. Cheryl Urbanczyk: maybe children born in Canada or the states, but maybe speak a different language at home and Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: there's just a variation in of oral language skills and you're in New York City, I'm in Greater Toronto area. There's just people from everywhere, which is awesome. But, Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: again, what are kids coming in with and how are we teaching Katie Takayanagi: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: them and and all that kind of thing? Hmm. It's really neat. So what Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: future goals do you have for yourself? It sounds like you have a lot going on. Is there anything Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: coming up that, that's next for me on the radar? Katie Takayanagi: I think I think working with a fellow in training is sort of my current project. I really appreciate Cheryl Urbanczyk: We Katie Takayanagi: I mean she knew when we spoke about it that she was gonna be the first fellow in training that I was working with. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: She was fine with that. She was very supportive. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: and I think before this I teaching clinical level was kind of my new project. so Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: I I co teach with Deb Morris and Jenny Singer Harris and that's been wonderful. I had been so it just I feel like every year, even just my associate and classroom educator courses, I was so busy trying to update things and adjust things every year. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: I always felt like, I don't have time to create a whole n you know, new course that I haven't taught. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: Deb said, Well, let's teach it the three of us and I think Deb has really Cheryl Urbanczyk: Fascinating. Katie Takayanagi: helped sort of push me to do things that I felt Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Like teamwork makes the dream work, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: Absolutely. just sort of telling me like, I know you can do this. So I think actually one thing that I would love to do soon is do a presentation at the OGA conference because I haven't done that and it wasn't something that that we necessarily really needed to do when I was applying at the fellow level. But I think that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: would be a really neat way to connect with people in the OG community on the sort Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: of giving end rather than just sort of taking in all the the knowledge from Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: everyone. As I sit in workshops. I mean, right now I have my daughter's in fifth grade, and so I'm still really trying to manage. I mean, especially as a self-employed person with my practice, it gives me a lot of flexibility. But at the same time, I talk to other, particularly OG fellows who are self-employed. And I think the work-life balance, it's it's always a struggle. I think it's really easy to overload yourself because. There's so much need, there are so few of us, and it's hard to say no. We want to help everyone. So, just continuing to figure out how I can be the best teacher and and mentor I can be, but also be the mom that I wanna be and the friend and the just human being, you know, during especially during this time when my daughter still, wants to be around me. but Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Nice. Katie Takayanagi: but you know If there are lots of different things that I do kind of they just I don't know, rattle around in my brain as things that, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: you know, maybe when she's in college and when life kind of reorganizes, they would Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: be amazing projects. And they really have to do I mean, actually these are also things that I've heard other people you've interviewed mention. Like I feel like so many of us are on the same wavelength. Like you you talked to Francine Hannon and she mentioned you know, working with incarcerated people, then Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: that's something I've thought a lot about and I've met some people who do it not in an OG capacity, but Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: doing other kinds of teaching in that setting and, thinking about like maybe maybe I could create a tutoring center that would be something that, was funded through grants or a foundation or something that could, provide tutoring, but but also Cheryl Urbanczyk: Amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: like how can I help at sort of a higher level? Like also thinking about how can I be part of the movement towards getting this training into teacher training programs, which I know, other people are thinking about as well. So basically just yeah, how can I kind of amplify the work that I'm doing to just have the most impact. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Amazing. I so feel your enthusiasm and and love for this. And I think, just speaking for myself, it's it's hard to put those boundaries on the thing that you love to do. And Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: we all get into this and it's like you fall into the OG black hole and it's very exciting. And Katie Takayanagi: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: it's like, yay. A aside from thinking about work life balance, what would be a piece of advice you would want to give to people based on your experience? something OG related or it just anything, maybe for parents, teachers, Katie Takayanagi: Think I guess two things. One would be for anyone who has done any amount of training themselves and just has any inkling that they might want to do more, just really encouraging people to to go with that impulse and and train at the next level. I mean, it's I know it's not not everyone gets totally addicted to it the way that someone who becomes a fellow Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: does. but You know, for anyone who who maybe has some fear holding them back or sort of feels intimidated by that idea, just really encouraging people to to just, put themselves in that and position because they're Well, exactly. Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: We all started there and that's the thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: And you just I mean, I know again, I just know how much more I know from every Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Katie Takayanagi: other year that I've done this and just from putting myself into all of these different contexts where I've just gotten to learn new things from new people. So I mean I appreciate anyone who's doing this in any capacity and I know so many people are doing this and they're full time teachers or, they have lots of things going on, but but it's worth it. And and I just, would encourage people to to keep training and learning. and I think as a fellow I've realized for example attending This structured word inquiry class with Pete Bowers right now, or I attended a wonderful assessment course a few years ago virtually through the Stern Center. I you had Peggy Price on recently. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: that act, I mean, I've it actually taking an taking someone else's training, like being a participant in some sort of training, not just attending, a conference workshop, but it's a really wonderful experience once you've been training teachers to to be the person being trained and to think. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Katie Takayanagi: about the things that are happening for you as the learner and then learning things from the way someone else facilitates the class. I think it's such a great experience. So that's my recommendation, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Well Katie Takayanagi: I guess, for other people in who are fellows and training or fellows. So Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you, Katie, for this wonderful conversation and for sharing all of your story and OG thoughts and the things that you do. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Katie Takayanagi: Yeah, thank you so much for having me and for doing this. I look forward to listening to more of your interviews. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Thank you. Me too. More conversations. Okay, awesome. Thank you Katie Takayanagi: Thanks.