Latest / Graeme Souness Tackles / Simon Jordan & Sir David Murray: Man City CHARGED & Scottish Football | Graeme Souness Tackles Ep 6

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Simon Jordan & Sir David Murray: Man City CHARGED & Scottish Football | Graeme Souness Tackles Ep 6 · Graeme Souness Tackles

0:00
Good afternoon and welcome to Graham Soonest Tackles today.
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I've got 2 very dear friends of mine and it should be a both
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exciting, interesting and sometimes controversial show.
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I've got the number one football broadcaster in the UK at the
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moment, Simon Jordan. It's a big Billy mate.
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You better be good today. And my dear old friend Sir David
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Murray, the most successful chairman than the history of
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British football. If you're watching on YouTube,
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please hit like, comment, and subscribe.
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Either BDO have not done their job or alternatively, Man City
0:35
have withheld information. I won't play that card.
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I won't play that. You've never done it, so you
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can't talk about it. I leave that sort of stuff to
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others and I know you wouldn't do that either grade.
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The premiership could collapse around us, I don't think.
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People realise how serious this is this.
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Is their typical football manager.
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Building owner excuse. How lucky was I to dodge a
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bullet not working for him, David?
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You sold the football industry in in the United Kingdom, people
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taking the money. That's basically what's
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happened. Where do we start?
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I really think there's only one place we can start.
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Man City. I'll start with you, Sir David,
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you being the oldest, what's your thoughts?
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I've been listening to, but I heard you on the radio this
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morning, Simon as well. The thing that I don't get as a
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business person, having been a director for 50 years and a
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football team for 22 years, how have BDO for the last 12 years
1:27
signed the accounts of now? Every year in business, the
1:31
diligence we have to go through for signing accounts, either BDO
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have not done their job or alternatively Man City have
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withheld information, so that is a serious thing that has to be
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investigated by the FA. Of course.
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I mean, I mean, BDO as an auditor are going to point
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directly back at Man City, aren't they, David?
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They're going to turn around and say we rely on the information.
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We rely on the on the letters of representation.
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And so we as commercial animals, and Graham obviously excused us
1:59
because I don't want you to feel out of your depth here.
2:01
You know, you're a football, You're a football person.
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You've made that point. Yeah, you've made that very
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clear that you're a football person and we shouldn't talk
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about on the field stuff. So I'm certainly don't.
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Leave you behind. Well, if you're on me and I'll
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give you such a such a billing. I just want to say I I wanted I
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won't play that card. I won't play that.
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You've never done it, so you can't talk about it.
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I leave that sort of stuff to others and I know you wouldn't
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do that either, Grey. But going to the scenario around
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Manchester City, David is absolutely right.
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The the representations. I mean, there are lots of
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people, if this sticks and it takes, there are lots of people
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that are going to be answering a lot of questions about their
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conduct. And some heavy hitters are going
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to be in the crosshairs of all manner of complicated scenarios,
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whether it be their their position within football, which
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is going to be the least of their concerns.
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But you might find the long arm of the law starts to find its
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way into people's worlds. Because if you're signing
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accounts, whether it's overstating accounts, Graham and
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David jump in and come across me every time you want to and
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you're, you're misrepresenting them.
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You're not only committing a breach of your fiduciary
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responsibilities as a director. Yeah, you are in essence
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breaking the law. But today, auditors are liable.
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What they sign off, they do a due diligence.
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We're going through an audit just now and I think the
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questions they're asking today compared to 10 or 20 years ago
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are far greater detail because they're liable.
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So BDO have a lot to answer for, but the only answer I can give
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have been dealt with auditors. I doubt they've been given all
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the necessary information and have signed off the accounts in
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good faith. Of course they will have signed
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it off with letters of representation from those that
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are in a position to issue them and those people are going to
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have some questions to answer at some points.
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But then beyond all that, what I've tried to do, I don't know
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where you've been on this, David.
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I've watched this carefully. I can't admit to liking the
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style of Manchester City's adversarial conduct.
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You look at the manner in which they represent themselves and
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the first thing I would suggest is not only do we look at what
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they've done with their seemingly guilt around the
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overstating of accounts and the duplicitous payments to to
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players and managers, but the breach of the of the owners and
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test proper tests is cooperating with the authorities.
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I think the one thing you've got to remember, most football
4:20
clubs, let's be serious here, we have an open chat, have
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skeletons in the cupboard. I mean, you've been in the game,
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I've been in the game a long time.
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Man City, they're not the only club that ever broke.
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Nobody's maybe taken to this extreme, so coming on today,
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I've done a bit of homework. Where were the parallels and
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similar situations? Right, Yeah, the nearest one I
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thought was Juventus. Juventus.
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Juventus bribing the referees and everything.
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Yeah, but what happened there, that was a very, that was a bit
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as big a story as as today. What happened there was Juventus
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put down the division, the players stayed with them, they
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got a penalty, but four other clubs went down with me as well.
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I didn't realise that till I read this morning.
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But you know why it was all smoothed over?
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Because Italy won the World Cup 2 weeks before in 2006.
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So euphoria so you can have this.
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That's not exactly happening at England at the moment,
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unfortunately. So the noise, I think that.
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Smoothed it over a bit. Indeed.
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But when we talk about this, it's been done recently.
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Chelsea did it. Yeah.
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The only thing, the only difference between Chelsea and
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Man City, Graham David, is that Chelsea are a commercial animal
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whose sole motivation behind their ownership is to try to
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turn it into a commercial venture for them.
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And they went mitigate. We'll use the money that was
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going to go to Ukraine from Abramovich and we'll mitigate by
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doing a deal. We'll take it away from the
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Premier League's jurisdiction in terms of an independent
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Commission. We'll do a deal and we'll sweep
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it under the carpet and everyone will go, oh, that was that.
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That was that was that was what that was.
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But they did the same thing. You know, you had Abramovich's
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the the the origin of Abramovich's downfall is
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nefarious money that took him out and the club got sanctioned.
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Then you have the situation 234 years later when you find out
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that the deeds of Abramovich, who's now been still being
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heralded by his fans as a hero, have brought the club into a
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situation where they've cheated, undeniably cheated, but because
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of the manner which they handled it, rather than royalty and a
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nation state ownership that says hang on a second, that's not
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doesn't happen to us. Now you've got Man City with all
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their adversarial situation. They're now bringing the whole
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football framework in English football into scrutiny.
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And if they start to scorch earth, David and I want to see
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what your thoughts on that are. Yeah.
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Yeah, they start to scorch earth.
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What? Where's this going?
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I think the thing you've got to realise, 80 to 85% of the
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premierships for on their own now, so let's get that in
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perspective. There's only three clubs that
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are British and in Brighton and Spurs you've got two
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professional gamblers running them when you think.
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About it and Brentford and. Brentford and so it's second.
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So I think the game has lost though it's English identity
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entity, but anybody wants to look at it.
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When you and I grew up, it was the local builder, the tradesmen
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that owned the club. And then another era came in of
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individual owners like I became and.
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Yourself. It's moved beyond that now.
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It's not an English football game now it's investment.
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I think it's like this year's Let's buy a football club and it
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will change. The Premiership lost £970
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million last year. It's got 303.6 billion in debt
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and turned over 7 billion as a as a as a business.
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It's got 50% debt. This is, I think there's far
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bigger picture, bigger problems come into the game.
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It's a bigger picture, David. Yeah, David.
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Sam is the bigger picture here. That how I see it.
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They will kick the can down the road and it will be a long road.
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They'll have the very best lawyers money can buy.
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So they'll they'll stretch it out, hoping there's something
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even more dramatic comes along eventually and people forget
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about it. Or, or is it beyond football
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faces all important. They cannot be seen to be
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losing. They can't be seen to be shown
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in a scene in a bad light. And would it go beyond
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footballing powers that, hey, wait a minute, we just can't
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have us being showing, but I'll jump in forward.
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I'll jump in first and David, if you, if you come in after me on
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this one, I, I think, I think if there was any politics that were
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going to play a part in this, it would never seem the light day
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in the 1st place. This politics would have been
8:20
dealt out at the beginning of political intervention was going
8:22
to come into play because I had that conversation with David
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Bernstein, the former chairman of Man City, about the potential
8:26
ramifications of political interference.
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Don't forget, by the way, when you allow nation states in
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there, you create a raft of problems.
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And one of the problems you create with say, the Abu Dhabis
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is they are huge investors in the infrastructure of the UK.
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They're one of the biggest shareholders in BT and they're
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one of the biggest investors in offshore wind, right?
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So all of a sudden you stick, you're thumbing these guys eyes
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and there will be ramifications, but that can't necessarily be
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football's concern. And I don't think that what the
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point that you're making is, will political influence come to
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play? Because I think it would have
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stopped in the 1st place if it was going to.
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And the issue with the difference of ownership is that
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the the Abu Dhabi I can't see and and if David can, I can't
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see an off ramp for them. Their whole purpose for owning
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this was not John Henrys purpose for owning Liverpool or Bed
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Bally's purpose for owning Chelsea.
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Their whole purpose was to let this particular part of the
9:18
world be shown through a different prism and they were
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going to do a nice shiny football club to do it.
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They are now tarnished beyond all tarnish and even if they get
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out from underneath grey, people are going to say it's a
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technicality. Can you, can you see an off ramp
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for them, David? No, I think what's happened
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here, I think Abramovich when he bought Chelsea, it gave him
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credibility in the Western world for his business.
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And I think indirectly the Abu Dhabi's bought themselves into
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things. And the same happened in Paris.
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Saint German did it not then they managed to.
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Do Arab Springs though? Arab Springs, though, wasn't.
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It, of course, that's right. So I think I tend to agree with
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what Graham said. I don't think this will end up
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as big a mess. I think they'll be fine.
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I don't think they'll lose trophies.
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I think they might be put down a division they can't afford to
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destroy because not the the Prem, the premiership could
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collapse around us, the whole. Premise.
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I don't think people realise how serious this is.
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You know, you get the average commentator shouting and
10:14
screaming about it's not right, it's not right.
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But for me I think this is far bigger than just football.
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This club was this club was bought by the Abu Dhabi Fund to
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promote Abu Dhabi. It was a vehicle, It was a
10:27
vehicle to promote Abu Dhabi. And if they on the day they
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decided to buy the football club, they also decided to throw
10:34
as much money at it wasn't necessary to be the number one
10:38
team in the world. And that's what's happened.
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And they've come on stop. They've been caught doing it and
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I don't see this being a resolution anytime soon.
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I don't know. I think this this cannot be
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kicked down a very long road and we could still be talking about
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it in five years. But the other?
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But the other clubs didn't mind taking 120 million for Anderson
10:55
or 100 million for that. They've taken the money as well.
10:58
So let's not forget that to a degree it bailed out a couple of
11:02
other clubs financially. People think they know what
11:12
happened during my time at Rangers, Trust me they don't.
11:15
They don't know the full story, the signings, the rows, the
11:18
wrist, the decisions that upset a few people and a fair few
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stories I've never been told. It's all in my Rangers out on
11:25
the 15th of October. It's available to pre-order now
11:28
so get your first copy and hear the full story before anyone
11:32
else. Can we just take it on a wee
11:36
bit? What about ownership today?
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You know, we've got Americans we've got, you've got the
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glaciers, you've got the, the, the hedge fund that's coming at
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Chelsea. How business has changed.
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You were owners of football clubs.
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How do you see where it is now and where it's going?
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I'll go first if you don't mind. I've, I look at ownership today.
11:57
There's a guy at Coventry, there's a chap at Huddersfield.
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You know, good, intentional people want to support their
12:03
local club. There was no disrespect to them.
12:07
I don't know if they stand a chance of survival because the
12:09
amounts of money. So the the problem is the
12:11
Premiership is a big ticket and not many individuals can afford
12:15
it. And if you look at the Coach
12:16
family, who is wealthy as anybody who went into Stoke, I
12:20
can remember Peter Coach when I took over at Rangers, he had the
12:24
catering. Catering he used to.
12:27
Have the wooden boxes, the burgers and everything and how
12:30
well that family's done. But they've pumped 300 million
12:33
into Stoker 4. It's unsustainable for British
12:37
individuals, so it's open to foreign investment and with
12:41
foreign investment comes things like we're finding with man.
12:44
City like like no or let's go back to Man United.
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The glaciers come in, they pay themselves a, you know, a large
12:51
dividend each year and the supporters are up in arms of
12:53
that. They had to accept they've
12:55
bought it on the day they bought it.
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They've got an exit strategy, they're thinking and we'll keep
13:00
this for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years.
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They're in it to make as much money as they possibly can and
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in some cases it's been the most wonderful buy, as is for the
13:10
people that bought Liverpool. Well, what what's interesting
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about ownership that's changed for myself and David's time is
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that ownership now is a vehicle for something else.
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When when I bought Crystal Palace and when David bought
13:20
Rangers for different reasons, right?
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It might be both fool, both foolish enough to want to be
13:25
involved in the club that we had.
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Significantly, Graham's collation with.
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Yeah, cramps, and I blame my father.
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I. Stopped you buying Air United,
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man, I'm going to be out for dinner one night, Raphael is I'm
13:37
going to buy Air United. Why are you doing that?
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And I've managed to talk your own, not to do it and buy the
13:43
mighty Glasgow Rangers. But it's a vehicle for it's a
13:46
vehicle for different agendas. Football now is an industry in
13:49
its own right. I don't mean an industry.
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I mean I mean an economy in its own rights.
13:53
One of the few things I agree with Infantino on, and I think
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he understated it, was the scale of this industry, the actual
13:58
size of influence. When I was over in America for
14:00
the World Cup, Graham, talking to the American broadcasters and
14:03
talking to the Americans about the scale of this sport.
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You're talking about sport. Does anyone know you over there?
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Unfortunately. Did I said that?
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Aren't you the guy that makes Graham seen this look like a tit
14:12
every time he comes on a show with you?
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I said that's not, that's not, that's not me.
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That's not me. That is that the same Salmon
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Jordan who couldn't get the better of Graham soon as you
14:20
just bullies, bullies always poor victims on a daily basis in
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top sport helps. Them with their education, I
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prefer to to categorise it as but it's a vehicle for different
14:29
ownership models now for different reasons.
14:31
Which makes David's point very salient because look at your
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club, Dave Graham, your old club, Liverpool, not not
14:37
Rangers, your English club. Look at what it's taken to buy
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into that you've got 3 billionaires put together in
14:44
Jeff Bezos, the guy behind Facebook and Mittel's son that
14:48
have had to spend 2.2 billion to buy into English football.
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I don't know what David thinks about the governance as an
14:55
overriding position, but I'm deeply troubled by the the PSR
15:01
rules and FFP. David, originally I thought it
15:04
would help guys like you and I, their own football clubs that
15:06
are constantly being told how much money we had to spend.
15:09
And then could. And then we could hide a little
15:11
bit in, in plain sight by saying turnover is wonderful, but we've
15:14
got to be at a certain level and that means we've got to generate
15:16
more revenue from you fans because we can't put it in.
15:19
But then but PSR came along to perhaps fix what I thought would
15:22
be hyperinflation. All it's done is cement people
15:24
in the same room. I personally think despite the
15:28
fact, the observations that you've made about the scale of
15:30
the industry, the cost of the debt and so on and so forth, I
15:34
still think it should be an industry that should open
15:36
investment in it and shouldn't be shut down by governance like
15:39
PSR and FFP. What do you think's of that?
15:42
The problem I think you've got, as I said earlier, it's not
15:44
English football owned now, it's foreign owned.
15:47
And when you accept you've sold the, you've sold the football
15:49
industry in the United Kingdom, people have taken the money.
15:52
That's basically what's happened.
15:54
So then you're not going to control Jeff Besos on the metal?
15:57
Partly. The amount of money they're
15:58
talking is minimal. It's small beer for them, but
16:02
it's distorting the game in my opinion.
16:06
Liverpool, except take the money in and all they're going to do
16:09
is compete with other. But how do they then put the
16:11
money into the clubs? Or they could fall into the same
16:14
trap as Man City Well. What they don't do is they don't
16:17
misrepresent it. You, you, by the very nature of
16:19
the new governance, David, with SCR, if you're in the room on
16:22
seven, £800 million turnover, then you're already in a decent
16:26
position of saying that the the market will allow me to buy
16:29
whatever I want and to pay whatever I want within reason
16:32
because I'm already there. Now you, Aston Villa and you in
16:35
Newcastle, well, you off because you can't, you can't compete.
16:39
In Newcastle, look at the players have had to sell and I
16:41
think. That, and I think that's wrong.
16:42
I think that flies in the face. Now we might both agree.
16:45
And John Hall Once Upon a time agreed with this and has changed
16:48
his mind a little bit. When they first came into
16:50
Newcastle was very much against the Saudis, very much in our
16:53
space a little bit, which is I really cry about the lack of
16:57
investment in this country and how we are prepared to sell
17:00
everything to everyone else. We'd sell the London Stock
17:02
Exchange if we could, but we are where we are trying to.
17:05
But John Hall sort of moved if it is if the Germans, John Hall
17:09
did at one point object to the sound is coming in now he's in a
17:13
different space. But we look at the idea that
17:17
that that that the genie is out of the bottle, isn't it?
17:19
The toothpaste is out of the tube.
17:20
How are we going to protect the industry if we've got governance
17:26
which is anti competitive and antitrust?
17:29
We've got an independent financial regulator and over
17:31
regulating anything is bad in my view.
17:33
David, I don't know what yours is.
17:35
Yeah. And you've got other leagues
17:36
that are waiting for the Premier League to blow up the.
17:39
The problem you've got United Kingdom today if you're success
17:43
the best thing to do is to sell and get your cash and and
17:47
capital gain and capital gains tax is about to go up.
17:50
I've no doubt about that. And a lot more people.
17:52
We don't own the country anymore.
17:54
We've sold this all. We've sold the football soul.
17:57
It's gone right that's. True.
17:58
On on ownership, Can we talk about Man United?
18:02
Yeah. Jim Radcliffe, British, by the
18:05
way. British, by the way, by the way,
18:07
Graham, when we talk about business, I've always maintained
18:09
that David might do the same, that football is a business,
18:11
right? And it's got to be treated as
18:12
such. It's not a business, it's got to
18:14
be treated differently. Now should have a blue plaque
18:15
above the door. And the one example of business
18:17
that is exhibiting itself in football is the Glazers
18:19
ownership of Man United, and they hate it.
18:22
That is real business. It's leverage purchase where the
18:25
people that own it make money. And that's business operating at
18:27
its finest level. But everybody hates it, don't
18:29
they? It could be a steel.
18:30
Business, but it's not. It's a football club which has
18:33
got simpatico and feelings, but they run it as a business, yeah.
18:37
And that's what that's what annoys your average Man United
18:40
supporter, because they don't think it should be treated as a
18:43
business, them taking large dividends every year instead of
18:46
pulling it back in to buy players.
18:48
But they weren't complaining. The supporters and Man United
18:50
when Fergie was there and Iglesias were there and they
18:53
were winning. They only complain when you're
18:55
not winning. Jim Radcliffe.
19:03
Do you think he. Regrets buying Man United.
19:05
He doesn't buy, he owns 25%. I, I, I The thing is I don't
19:09
understand, but what he's doing is he's he's making the comment
19:12
on more than football at the moment.
19:14
He's talking about immigration and business.
19:17
What I'm concerned about is his, his, his close Grange mouth.
19:20
He's Immingham and I remember, but you'll remember Graham when
19:24
you were down in Middlesbrough, the ICIICI was there.
19:28
All the jobs that I think he bought over.
19:30
I mean he was like all of us. He had to look over the edge and
19:32
nearly a business and it was recovered.
19:34
I find his work, he's obviously an intelligent businessman, but
19:38
I think if you're going to live in Monaco and not pay tax, you
19:41
shouldn't be advising us all how to run our lives, can I tell?
19:44
My story, I was asked to go and see him, meet him.
19:48
It must be five years ago. Six years ago he was thinking of
19:50
buying a football club. So I went to his offices in the
19:53
next bridge, went to reception. The lady said he'd be down in a
19:57
minute. He came down tall chap.
20:00
He said, you mind if we walk up the stairs?
20:02
He said I'm into my exercise and it's six flights up some
20:05
whatever it was. I said, no, of course.
20:07
So walk up. They're going to office.
20:08
His son is in there and he says I want to buy a football club.
20:11
And he said time is not on my side.
20:12
So I want to buy more or less the finished article.
20:16
And I I said, well, I know you're seasoned to get hold of
20:20
it Chelsea. So maybe a Bramwich at this time
20:24
is losing a wee bit of interest. You could.
20:27
You could buy that. He nodded his head and then he
20:31
said, why is it that there's not a team like Real Madrid that can
20:34
dominate domestic, sorry, A-Team like Real Madrid in the greatest
20:39
city in the world? And he was referring to London.
20:41
Why? Why can't a London team dominate
20:45
Europe and domestically Let Real Madrid have, I said, well, that
20:48
would that would cost a lot of money.
20:51
How much? So I said, well, maybe right now
20:54
you'd value Chelsea at 2 billion, maybe a wee bit more.
20:58
And if you wanted to push it and push it to be the very, very
21:02
best over the next 10 years, you might have to spend another 5
21:06
billion the way transfer fees are going.
21:08
His response was, would it be fun?
21:12
I said, well, my, my take on fun isn't spending 7 billion in
21:17
investing in the football club because there's so many things
21:19
that can go wrong. You're dealing with humans,
21:22
you're dealing with football players, media, public.
21:24
Domain, yeah, so and. Then I said to him, and I just
21:27
wonder if this resonates from time to time with him.
21:29
I said, why would you, in your position, super wealthy, put
21:35
yourself into position where you've got lots of criticism,
21:38
not of negative criticism. And what did he say?
21:42
They say. I want to do it.
21:43
I want to do it. I just wonder if should I tell
21:47
you what? Should I tell you what my theory
21:48
on this is, right? Because I think there's a lot
21:52
about the stage where Jim is at in his life and legacies and
21:55
looking beyond where he is now at this stage in his life and
21:57
his successes. You open your mouth as Jim
22:01
Radcliffe, a significant shareholder in Man United, and
22:04
look at the amplification, correct?
22:06
Look. Look at the.
22:08
And it's a very different amplification than the Jim
22:10
Radcliffe would have got as a very significant business
22:14
individual that's made significant inroads into great
22:17
levels of success. I disagree with you slightly,
22:19
David, on the premise of Jim Ratcliffe's right to have
22:22
something to say about what's happening in in this country,
22:24
because I think he has been a massive, massive, massive
22:28
taxpayer. And I don't blame him for taking
22:31
his tax pounds away from a country being run in the way
22:34
that we're currently trying. To make I think he can talk
22:37
about his own business, but don't think you're a world
22:39
expert and everything else but there there.
22:41
But there was an element of very successful people and certainly
22:44
billionaires that believe in their own infallibility.
22:47
And so they say, they say things and sometimes they find out that
22:50
it's a very different space because it's it is
22:53
incomprehensible. I think I'm.
22:54
Agreeing with you, I'm saying the same thing as you.
22:56
No, I think you are. I think it's incomprehensible
22:59
for someone as clever and he is clever and as and as and as and
23:03
as and as and as sophisticated at certain times as he has been
23:07
to say some of the things that he said without either sticking
23:11
by them or understanding the ramifications of them.
23:16
Will the uniqueness. Of will he get it right?
23:20
No. He doesn't know what he's doing
23:21
and he hasn't got people around him that do.
23:25
I think as well, but you know, it shows he doesn't understand
23:27
football when one player's maybe getting 150 grand a week and
23:32
they get rid of 250 people who serve food in a match day.
23:35
I mean, that's how you help destroy an ethos of a club, no?
23:40
Again, I might slightly disagree because I think the cult, we
23:43
both wanted to have great cultures in our football club.
23:46
I will not dare to compare Crystal Palace to, to Rangers
23:49
because I think you're a, a, a, a worldwide brand and Crystal
23:53
crates is something very dear to me and part of the Premier
23:55
League. But you also, when you go into
23:57
businesses, David, you'll know this is sometimes there's a lot
24:00
of fat in businesses. Sometimes businesses are not
24:02
lean. They've been run on other
24:04
people's money and they haven't been run very well.
24:06
And sometimes you go in there and you lean them up and make
24:08
them more effective and you make people more hungry and motivated
24:10
and disciplined. And I thought some of the things
24:12
that Jim did initially were right.
24:14
But when you start making appointments, when you start
24:16
saying to people, I didn't employ Ted Hog, but I'm going to
24:19
have a review of him because he it wasn't my appointment to give
24:22
him a chance, then you review him, then you give him a new
24:24
contract hold. On a second, how many times?
24:28
How many times can you get it wrong?
24:29
That's the point. So he's done it.
24:31
He's done it. With Carrick, now there's no and
24:34
that to me tells me to answer Graham's question, no, I don't
24:37
think that that they're going to be successful with Jim Radcliffe
24:40
and the Glazers and take over the vacuum that Arsenal and
24:44
perhaps Liverpool field. Well, what?
24:47
About what? About what?
24:49
About sacking? Getting rid of the greatest ever
24:53
employee that Man United have ever had.
24:57
Ferguson. Yeah, he did sack him.
25:00
He just turned up the gravy trade.
25:01
Yeah. Well, that's OK, that might be a
25:04
bit harsh, but why? Why would you?
25:06
But that's. Similar, that's similar to what
25:08
I said about the the staff. He's taken away the spirit of
25:11
the 2 million. £2,000,000 a year The supporters against you A.
25:17
Football club, as you said, is not an ordinary business and
25:20
occasionally you've got to turn a blind eye.
25:22
Now, you take an example at Rangers, Tiny and her family
25:25
were in the kitchen for 5070 years.
25:29
They were part of the makeup. They weren't the most
25:30
productive. I don't mean that disrespecting
25:33
a football club is not like another business you've
25:35
sometimes got to do. That's what the most important
25:37
thing is, winning matches. Yeah, but David.
25:40
David. What I tell what I'm going to
25:42
make myself what do, What do I need to do to make myself really
25:45
unpopular at Man United? I tell you what I'll do.
25:47
I'll sack the greatest ever servant.
25:50
I'll stop paying him. Whatever, Graham.
25:52
Sooners in this director of football 2 million. £2,000,000 a
25:55
year it was costing Man United with the turnover.
25:58
They have that. Who advises them to do that?
26:01
But when? See what when David, when David
26:05
articulates it like that, My first reaction is Alex, you've
26:08
had a good run, son, all right. And you've made a lot of money.
26:11
But I but I also take on board the the very premise that I
26:14
would say, which is you can't treat a football club as much as
26:17
you might want to. It should have a blue plaque
26:19
above the door. It's a different dynamic.
26:20
It's a public domain. It thinks the fans think they
26:22
own it. They do some extent.
26:24
They own the emotional heart of it.
26:25
Simon, how much? Of the 5 billion, how much of
26:28
the 5 billion valuation at Man United D is down to Fergie?
26:33
A lot. A lot, a lot.
26:36
And the players he had at that time it.
26:39
Was like, how do I shoot myself in the foot?
26:41
Yeah. But also, hang on a second, you
26:43
how much of the how much of the of the derailing of of Man
26:47
United down to Ferguson falling out with JP over?
26:51
That was. That wasn't What do you mean the
26:55
reason the the the reason why the?
26:57
Glazers were allowed in the door is because those boys fell out
27:01
with Alex Alex and sold their shares to the Glazers.
27:04
You've just. Brought me on to the next one.
27:05
David, please enlighten Mr Jordan about the opportunity you
27:10
had with Man United. Thanks for opening the door for
27:13
me, but. But it's funny enough I've
27:15
treated that. Because you're going to ask, You
27:17
told me this already. It's 25 years ago this year that
27:20
happened. Would you believe it?
27:22
I got a phone call one day from a Michael Knight and he said I
27:24
wonder if you could help me? I've agreed to buy half of
27:27
Manchester United for the ball juggler.
27:30
The ball juggler first phones me.
27:33
Up he played keep me up he she phones me up.
27:35
He said I can buy it for 10 million.
27:37
Bought it from the Edwards guy. And then I haven't got the 10
27:40
million. I said, but you've just been on
27:42
the effing pitch. How can you do it?
27:45
You're gonna do it. So you said, can you help me?
27:47
I said. So I brought the numbers in.
27:48
So I said I'll go 5050 with you. There's my 5 million.
27:52
I said, where is yours? Well, I own a lot of property,
27:54
so I've got the bank. It was just.
27:56
Greenland, Huddersfield. David, wasn't it?
27:57
Do you know I'm going to? That, but it's bet there's a
27:59
castle in Ayrshire as well and I so I've arranged for the bank to
28:03
lend them 5 million to do it. We went round to value the
28:06
properties and we valued about one and a half million.
28:08
So to cut a Long story short, I sat in a lawyer's office, was a
28:11
new Graham till 4:00 in the morning, and when I woke up the
28:15
next morning I owned 50% of Man United.
28:18
Could you believe that? Come up with a 10 million
28:21
Louise. Cook to speak in the next
28:22
moment. Back to your house and my wife
28:24
cooked to breakfast first. So basically cut.
28:26
So I had to write to the SFA and they said to you, you either
28:30
give up Rangers and keep mine United and give up Rangers.
28:33
It was a lost opportunity, isn't it?
28:35
Understandable indeed. It was indeed it was.
28:38
So when you look at the reality of exactly how much worth Alex
28:42
created at Man United, he also did to some extent by an element
28:45
of arrogance about a horse, a whole raft of challenges which
28:49
are now taking Man United in a different direction.
28:54
I was thinking today, when you come in today, Simon, it's
29:01
amazing. Yeah, when Crystal Palace and
29:03
Rangers both went into ministration, Crystal Palace
29:06
actually saved us a wee bit of Rangers because it was 2010 when
29:11
Crystal Palace were in trouble with Lloyd's Bank.
29:13
They were rioting outside their office in Gresham St, OK And I
29:17
arrived two days later. Nobody bothered with Rangers
29:20
because Crystal Palace had put the shitters up in the bank.
29:22
They were frightened of the fans.
29:24
Well, those are, those are not very fond memories for me,
29:26
David, not for me either. That was at my particular time
29:30
and that was as a result of H Boss, which was Paul Kemper.
29:34
Same thing, same thing. And Lloyd's had taken H Boss and
29:37
so the ticket ended up with Lloyd's.
29:39
I've done the deal with Lloyd's, but at that time I'm running out
29:41
of cash, so I'm bounced out the door.
29:43
So not the happiest of times, no, but just.
29:45
You actually protected us a wee bit because all of a sudden
29:48
Crystal Palace had rattled the front door a bit of I can't
29:51
remember at Lloyd's office when I went in there, the boy said
29:54
they've not got fancy of me today.
29:55
I said no. If you were managed to go in and
29:58
I managed to do a deal, I mean I was only interim for 800 million
30:01
at the Times, that wasn't too bad, yeah.
30:03
No, not too bad anyway, never mind.
30:04
That's another story, So. We're talking about all this
30:07
money, this washing round, the English Premier League.
30:11
David, what's your take on when you were in charge at Glasgow
30:15
Rangers? I mean, when you got involved,
30:17
you could, when I was your manager, we could compete with
30:20
any English team from buying players and how that picture has
30:23
changed. Congratulations.
30:25
Football has been very, very hard to watch for for me and
30:29
the. Problem you've got is when you
30:30
and I started out together on the mission, we could compete
30:34
and take Trevor Stephen from Everton and beat Man United.
30:37
That was the the clout of Glasgow Rangers.
30:40
So there. But now slowly but slowly the
30:42
Premiership got thing, you know, in my 23 years, other than
30:46
Leguin, every manager, whether it be Mccleish, yourself, Graham
30:50
Walter and Dick Advocate, each manager spent more games at the
30:54
Rangers than any club in their in their career.
30:58
For Dick Abbott that's quite remarkable because he must have
31:00
been the biggest. He'd been the Guinness Book of
31:02
Records in the amount of clubs he'd been at.
31:04
So we built a bond, We never fell out, We were teammates, we
31:08
were mates and slowly but surely we got eroded and eroded and
31:12
eroded and you're under tremendous pressure from the
31:14
fans. And I had one ambition was to
31:16
win. That was about winning.
31:18
And even at the end when it went a bit wrong, and I want to just
31:21
explain this to you. We were on three in a row when I
31:24
left. We'd started building up again.
31:26
And when Rangers got hit with the the tax bill from HMRC of
31:30
85,000,000, they started loading penalties onto us and the bill
31:34
got up to about 130 million. Was obviously we're in trouble
31:37
then. All right.
31:38
But on top of that, the biggest thing that hit me, the Bank of
31:41
Scotland went bust. So here you are, got this charge
31:44
on you for 100 and 3000 and 40 million and your bank bust.
31:47
You know, doesn't matter how clever I thought I was, you know
31:50
that there was no way out of it. But you know, the ironical and
31:53
really annoying thing to this day that sticks in my crawl
31:56
really does. Eventually they found out the
31:59
penalties were illegal. They shouldn't have charged us.
32:02
And they say the final figure was 33 million.
32:05
Rangers did not need to go bust, but they identified HMRC.
32:09
This is the target that we're going to get.
32:11
And it, you know, hurts me very badly.
32:13
And OK, I'm remembered for it being at the end.
32:15
But I think the thing I'm remembered for loads of gas
32:18
going nine in a row, 35 trophies.
32:20
The fact of the matter is I have no doubt that Rangers were
32:23
targeted to be used as an example for the schemes.
32:27
Which brings us today to Man City.
32:30
Is it a parallel? I'm not sure.
32:33
I was watching that unfold from afar.
32:36
I've known you for a very long time.
32:37
You're super smart businessman and it was reminding me of, and
32:42
you've mentioned it recently, some Sunday Times journalist who
32:46
says when very smart, intelligent businessmen by
32:49
football clubs, they leave their brains at the door.
32:51
No, correct. No watching you from afar and
32:55
and knowing the passion you have for that football club.
32:57
Did you? I've never asked you this.
32:59
Did you get caught in that, that world where I just have to give
33:04
the supporters what they want? I just want to give them more
33:07
and more and maybe the sums weren't adding up or you're
33:10
trying to convince yourself they would add up.
33:13
Well, I didn't really want to do another £50 million rights issue
33:15
but but I put another, I found another 50 million to keep it
33:18
going. But when you sit there with
33:20
supporters groups it's quite difficult.
33:22
You do get caught up in it. There's cleverer people than me
33:25
that got caught up in it and it's, you know, your Rangers
33:27
Football Club. It's a massive institution,
33:30
great pressure from the fans and etcetera, etcetera, and
33:33
unfortunate, but I do come back to Rangers were targeted.
33:37
We could still be at the club today if those two factors had
33:41
not hit us. And it doesn't matter how clever
33:43
I was when you're back, mind you, if your mortgage just take
33:46
an ordinary household, say you're a mortgage to somebody
33:49
and it nearly happened in Newcastle, didn't it?
33:51
The the the mortgage broker there.
33:53
When your bank goes burst, doesn't matter how club we are,
33:56
you're up a cul-de-sac. We're not a different, not a
33:58
ways to go. So yes, I probably made
34:01
decisions that where. But what?
34:04
Vanity, not sanity, can I? Ask you, can I ask you about
34:08
these Ebts? Because I turned it down when
34:11
when Panis got promoted to the Premier League, I had a look at
34:13
it and I thought to myself, I'm not sure about this offshoring,
34:21
image rights structure, non recourse loans.
34:24
I can save two £3,000,000 a year.
34:26
But I'm going to get HMRC at some point because they don't
34:29
like football. There's an unsecured creditor
34:31
policy and they don't like because they've been removed as
34:34
a preferred creditor. What?
34:35
What, what was your thinking to take that decision?
34:37
It was brought forward to me as a valid scheme and my sort of
34:41
and to me. And to me, and to me, and to me.
34:43
And I rubber stamped it for two reasons.
34:45
Our auditors signed it off the, the Rangers auditors signed it
34:50
off in the accounts. So we bit like coming back to
34:52
BDO because that's where the idea came into my mind.
34:55
But on top of that, Ernst and Young were our company's
34:58
auditors. So it's been audited at Rangers
35:01
and audited at the my head office of my company.
35:04
This will offer two or three. So one would believe it's a
35:06
valid scheme if you've gone through six different lots of
35:10
audits, but unfortunately it came through.
35:12
Can I ask? You guys about sort of multi
35:14
club ownership, is that a good thing?
35:18
Well, not, not if you run it the way John.
35:20
I mean, I like John Texter. I regard him as a friend.
35:22
I actually spoke to him today because he's railing about Steve
35:24
Parrish and inability to raise the £200 million to fit to the
35:27
stadium that he said he was going to do.
35:29
I have mixed emotions about it because I think it is a natural
35:32
byproduct of the ownership models that now exist.
35:35
And I never really had that many problems with it and, and, or
35:40
third party ownership. But I can see the challenges
35:43
that exists. I can see the challenges of how
35:46
it creates outcomes that might not be favourable.
35:50
But I'm where were you on it, David?
35:52
Because I'm, I'm kind of ambivalent.
35:53
Oh, and I. Tried to do it.
35:55
I had Rangers and Man United. There's never a better example.
35:58
God, there's not a better one than that.
36:01
Who was the feeder? Club at that time then.
36:04
Right, Man United. Rangers were bigger than Man
36:08
United. Just let's call it 50 then.
36:11
Certainly not. No, The thing that annoys me
36:14
about Rangers, just quite honest to move on to.
36:16
It's 14 years since restarted again and you've got to give
36:20
credit to the people, the Kings and the parks who really got
36:25
bought over the club. But I'm sorry to say it's 14
36:28
years For Rangers to win only three trophies is disappointing.
36:33
I think they had it when Steven Gerrard, they were on top and
36:37
they should have pushed on there but they didn't.
36:39
I don't want to be personal but I think they sat in their hands
36:41
a wee bit. You can't do that at Club Light
36:43
Rangers but but we're sorry we never got.
36:45
Round to it. When I asked it all I said
36:47
where? Where does Scottish football go?
36:50
How can it get better? How can Rangers?
36:52
And Celtic, both Rangers. And Celtic out of Europe, you
36:57
know, they've got a presence in Europe.
36:59
How do How? How can we make it better?
37:02
I think first of all, I think the problem you've got is you
37:05
take Rangers Football Club and they've been in five European
37:09
finals, Man City have only been in four.
37:11
So put in perspective how much that they've gone back a wee
37:13
bit, Rangers. But the fact the matter is
37:15
Rangers and Celtic, if they're being honest with themselves,
37:18
are not Champions League clubs. They don't have the income, you
37:21
know, Celtics model by a player 22, sell them, reinvest, sell
37:26
them, invest well, that's not worked out too well.
37:28
Rangers the same. It's not worked too too well.
37:31
I think they're aiming too high and don't have the funds.
37:34
It's already well a Norwegian or a Swedish club getting at the
37:37
Champions League every four or five years.
37:39
That's acceptable if you're Maldy or something like that.
37:43
But I think the fans have too much expectation in Rangers and
37:47
Celtic to play at a higher level and I don't think they've got
37:51
the financial way of all. To do it.
37:53
But Celtic policy and I know you don't want to talk about Celtic
37:56
too much, right? They're the club that have been
37:58
in the Champions League more recently than Rangers have.
38:00
Yes, they don't seem to buy. Martin's gone in there and
38:03
previously, Brendan, I didn't much appreciate some of
38:04
Brendan's. Harkins I thought was very self
38:06
motivated and I thought German was right to smack him.
38:08
I don't know what you thought, but the idea of not buying
38:12
players to get into the Champions League proper because
38:16
they want to see where they sit first.
38:17
It's cost them two campaigns in the Champions League, which
38:21
doesn't make sense from a business point of view because
38:23
you've lost the revenue, you've saved a few quid on not buying
38:25
the players to run it like a business and then you've lost
38:28
the revenue. That would mean that the
38:29
business benefited from it. I think the.
38:31
Difference was when I was there, I was I owned 90% the club and I
38:37
basically made the majority of the decisions.
38:39
Celtic is multi owned. Dermot owns what, 30%?
38:43
He's the biggest shareholder but he's not a regular visitor.
38:47
It's an investment to him. I think for me to comment Celtic
38:51
is not right. I cannot concern myself with
38:53
Rangers but I think then it's difficult to compete in the
38:56
Champions League now with the pressure from the fans.
39:00
I think the Europa Europa Cup standard all right to.
39:04
Change that guys. Can we talk about technology and
39:07
you, you guys no doubt the custodians of our of great
39:14
institutions, Crystal Palace and Rangers.
39:16
Do you think it works? Can it get better or should it
39:21
be bend Simon? Are you, listen, sporting the
39:26
technology around sports and not just VAR, is going to see
39:30
massive advancement in all aspects of sports, whether it's
39:33
genetics for players or whether it become augmented and virtual
39:36
reality for the way people watch it or a whole raft of other
39:39
things. When I've got people that I'm
39:40
talking to that are very significant in that space and
39:42
we're talking about specific technology being VAR, of course
39:46
it can get better. If we can land people on a moon,
39:49
we can police the game better than killing its spontaneity and
39:54
having to have people draw lines on the screen.
39:56
But the but the problem is, Graham, is that we've had a
39:58
disingenuous media and a disingenuous set of observations
40:03
about the fact that it was a panacea for every single
40:06
problem. It was going to get everything
40:07
right and it never was going to do.
40:08
But it's it. Still comes down, it's
40:10
subjective. VAR video assistant referee.
40:13
It's still an individual sitting in somewhere out near Heathrow
40:17
Airport making the wrong calls. Look at the one with.
40:21
But it might not. Be it might not be doing it
40:23
soon, it might be AI is doing it soon, there might not be anybody
40:26
in the wee box somewhere. It's it's here.
40:28
To It's here to stay, it has to improve because it's not
40:31
acceptable. Who's the chap the header for
40:33
Man City? It's Enzo.
40:35
Fernandez, who missed the header and was offside.
40:36
Yeah, Angel, for now. Misses the header.
40:38
He has obviously tracked what he said in the ball to score the
40:40
goal and Holland gets at the far post and finishes it correctly.
40:43
Really. Well, how does someone who's got
40:46
a remote interest in football not see that that way?
40:49
How can we get that wrong? And these guys are meant to be
40:52
professional referees, the very best that we've got.
40:56
And that's. Accepted, right?
40:57
But what you've just done is the exact same thing as other people
40:59
in the media, and you're not in the media having conversation
41:01
amongst ourselves for a media platform.
41:03
But the empirical data doesn't back up what you just said.
41:06
The fact of the matter is VAR gets more things right and has
41:08
created a difference between what was getting wrong and
41:11
what's being right now. So what you're now doing is
41:12
you're highlighting the worst exception.
41:14
Well, I'll tell. You I'm highlighting it might
41:16
cost Carricky's job ultimately. That's why it's important to me
41:20
to see someone being on someone losing their job on such a bad
41:24
refereeing decision. I don't he.
41:26
Can't have a he can't have a strong if his if his whole
41:28
career is on one vard decision, well, he's a vard decision.
41:32
You. Both.
41:33
You. Know how important Losing games,
41:36
winning games. This is the right time.
41:37
This is a typical. This is a typical football man.
41:39
This is a. Typical owner excuse.
41:41
How lucky was I to dodge a bullet?
41:43
Not working for him David. David will tell you I was a
41:47
perfect manager. I never caused him a minutes
41:49
problem. I nearly went to work for Simon.
41:51
How lucky was I to dodge a bullet?
41:53
You told me that right enough at the time.
41:55
I warned you not to, you said. Definitely don't.
42:00
Work for him. I've heard his dodgy.
42:04
He's gonna run out of money. No, we're all dead.
42:07
We're all dead. You know, we left our brains
42:09
outside the door. It's.
42:10
Fun to go journalist, but to. Go to your point, Glam.
42:14
We have brought this upon ourselves and we cannot be the
42:17
only game. The world's biggest game cannot
42:19
be excluded from the technological advancement of
42:22
making it stand up on its own 2 feet and make the right
42:24
decisions. What we've got to do is we've
42:26
got to do it better and we've got to be able to make sure that
42:29
it's represented properly. I don't particularly want
42:33
technology in the game, but I am sick and tired of listening to
42:36
your brethren constantly complaining about.
42:40
What you really mean is people who understand the game.
42:44
Of course, Yes, yes, of course. Yes, yes, of course.
42:47
We're back to that. Yes, that card.
42:49
Was always going to come out indeed.
42:50
It was indeed it was, guys. What do you think of Infantino
42:54
in his attempt to monetize FIFA in a way which he would have
43:01
benefited greatly? It's outside.
43:03
My pay grade, I only follow what's in the papers, but what I
43:06
do know is when I was out in Doha 3 or 4 years ago, a couple
43:10
of times, what he's talking about now he was working on
43:12
years ago. It's not just happened
43:14
overnight. You don't know.
43:16
You don't. Think that came around because
43:17
of the American World Cup and his contact with, that's right,
43:20
with Trump, no. I, I think, I think that's
43:22
emboldened him. I think the language that other
43:24
people talk emboldened him. I think that's, look, I think
43:28
the bigger issue was the Balagan situation and the, and the reach
43:31
in to corrupt the game that Trump and his people did with
43:37
Infantino. The monetization of the game.
43:39
The, the ridiculous of it is if the money is there, then you
43:41
don't need to, you don't need to forward advance it.
43:44
So it's a ridiculous scenario. It was a form of bribery because
43:47
what he was using was seeding in the opportunity to make sure
43:50
he's shored up his position. You don't have the right to sell
43:55
something that doesn't belong to you.
43:57
Your job as a your job as a an NFP.
44:00
So Simon, should he stay? I mean, he's accusing you for
44:07
UEFA bodies or UEFA body trying to influence.
44:12
Well, let's be. Clear Graham, these are those
44:13
are not the good guys either. The fact that UEFA are trying to
44:16
pay them play themselves as the good guys in this equation, they
44:19
have done the same thing. Seffrin seeded an opportunity to
44:22
remove the parameters around the amount of time he can stay in
44:25
office. He voted through a premise of
44:27
saying that he doesn't get taken out of the three terms He has
44:30
been involved in trying to monopolise European football
44:33
because he didn't want any competition when there was that
44:36
competition about the European Super League.
44:37
Now the European Super League might have been flawed in its
44:39
lack of meritocracy, and I know the architect that's behind it,
44:43
interestingly Man City being one of the signatures at the first
44:45
instance. But monopolies are not good
44:47
things, so UEFA are not the good guys.
44:49
Should Inventino stay? There's a difference between
44:51
should he stay and will he stay, Should he stay on a moral
44:55
argument when myself and David are real world animals?
44:58
No, we probably shouldn't, right?
45:00
In the football world, unless somebody's going to put up or
45:04
shut up and put up a viable candidate and stay, he probably
45:06
will. The thing is they don't have a
45:09
they don't have a great track record of the people running.
45:11
Look at the man before. But do not think the infantero
45:14
is a bit of the way the world goes.
45:16
Power effects people. When people get to the top of
45:19
the grease pole, it does affect them.
45:21
And you see it not just in football, do you?
45:24
We see it in politics absolutely in every way of life, even if
45:27
even chief executives at football clubs chair It does
45:30
have power effects people. The absolute power corrupts
45:33
absolutely. The only difference between
45:35
Infantino and and the politicians we've currently got
45:38
in our society at this moment in time is Infantino is capable.
45:41
Our politicians are career buffoons.
45:43
And so Inventino might be misguided and he might have
45:46
lost, might have lost control of his own ego because there's a
45:48
huge amount of influence and power that comes with the top
45:51
job in football. But he is capable.
45:53
He's overstepped. And the interesting thing should
45:56
be what should football do to clean house?
45:58
Because he's shown his hand, he's shown where he sits, and
46:01
he's not fit for running, sitting on top of a of a of a
46:04
entity that's supposedly supposed to govern the game for
46:07
the right reasons, not for the commercial reasons that he's
46:10
details, it seems. For the for the few, not for the
46:12
many. Absolutely right.
46:16
Absolutely right, David, Absolutely right, guys.
46:19
I think we'll finish there. That's been fantastic.
46:22
Oh. No, Oh no.
46:23
I wanted to talk about the state of Scottish football because it
46:25
means so much to me. No, I.
46:27
Think that's you've got 10. Seconds.
46:31
That's been fantastic, everything I thought it would
46:33
be. By the way, Sam, there is an
46:37
opening for you there where President of FIFA, Simon Jordan
46:42
Oh. Can you mention that?
46:44
No, no, no, no, no, they don't. They don't bring people like me
46:46
into the fold mate. I'm just thinking Jim White will
46:50
be unhappy. He's not on this podcast today.
46:52
He's been left out, the big boys.
46:55
Indeed. Well, it's grown up stuff, isn't
46:57
it? We've carried Graham along,
46:59
We've carried Graham along and I know that a lot of this has gone
47:01
way above his head because he's not been on the field.
47:02
See, the good thing about He's done well, the good.
47:05
Thing about you and I, we're only responsible to ourselves,
47:09
nobody else. We're our own people.
47:11
That makes a big difference. Guys, it's been great.
47:14
Thanks, David. Thanks, David.
47:16
Thanks, Simon. Bye bye.