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Does AI excite you or shiver your spine? · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:12
  I'm Stephanie Coxson.
• 0:13
  And I'm Kathy Anderson Martin.
• 0:15
  And we are two women influencing real life.
• 0:18
  So let's twirl.
• 0:22
  Kathy, for the last couple of weeks, we have been talking data centers, and they have.
• 0:28
  We're experts on the subject.
• 0:30
  I do feel like we are quickly becoming experts on the subject.
• 0:34
  You know, and learning a lot of stuff that we just didn't know and how much it takes every time that we use AI.
• 0:41
  And we just see technological advancements literally, it feels like day by day.
• 0:46
  And I I don't know about anyone else.
• 0:48
  I feel like I'm struggling to keep up at this point.
• 0:50
  And I'm sure other people are as well.
• 0:52
  But these are this is information that people need to know, need to be aware of.
• 0:57
  And I that brings us to week three of just understanding all this data center and tech information and AI.
• 1:07
  And for people to really get a good grasp on the concepts of what is happening and where we are going in this world.
• 1:15
  So I hope that people find it interesting.
• 1:18
  I believe so.
• 1:18
  Some of the feedback I've gotten just about the data centers and people being unaware and just looking into the whole topic.
• 1:25
  I think that we're by far away, jokingly said we're experts.
• 1:28
  We're both very low tech people.
• 1:30
  So we'll give away our secrets.
• 1:33
  I know, I know.
• 1:34
  But um, yeah, at least it stimulates conversation and people are becoming more aware, and I think that's a good thing.
• 1:39
  And we presented both different sides of it, which I think is important too.
• 1:43
  We're pretty presenting all sides, and I agree.
• 1:45
  I think that's very important.
• 1:46
  So I'm Stephanie Coxon.
• 1:48
  I'm Kathy Anderson Martin, and we are two women inspiring real life.
• 1:52
  So let's twirl.
• 1:54
  So Kathy, I'm super excited about today's guest.
• 1:57
  Um, he is just a person who has really taken the tech industry by the horns.
• 2:03
  You can find him on TED Talk.
• 2:05
  His name is Dave Siegel.
• 2:07
  And, you know, I really became interested.
• 2:09
  And actually, you and I happened to walk in accidentally on a meeting with him, which is how we met.
• 2:14
  I remember that.
• 2:15
  I don't remember why we were wandering through, but we did.
• 2:17
  Yeah.
• 2:18
  We did we sat down and had lunch, and and lo and behold, here we are a few years later, having them on the podcast for very important, a very important topic.
• 2:27
  And um, and you could correct me if I'm wrong, Dave, but if I remember correctly, you really got started in this arena because you have a friend who's a paraplegic and wanted to help him have better quality of life.
• 2:42
  And so you invented something to allow him to participate in life uh from an entirely different perspective.
• 2:49
  And if you could give us that background of how you've gotten to this point and the name of your company, that would be incredible.
• 2:57
  Sure, sure.
• 2:58
  So uh again, my name is Dave Siegel.
• 3:00
  I'm the founder, co-founder and chief innovation officer at Naki Logics.
• 3:04
  And Naki Logics is a neurotech company uh that is building a neural earbuds that allow people to command, control, navigate their computers, mobile phones, essentially their entire connected world, hands-free, voice free, and sometimes even screen free.
• 3:22
  Uh so pretty exotic stuff.
• 3:24
  Um, my journey actually started a number of years ago, uh, actually towards late 2013, when I read an article about an Iraq war veteran who stepped on a roadside bomb, uh, lost his arms and legs, was gravely wounded, and he was getting a brand new quote unquote shiny uh thought controlled prosthetic arm.
• 3:46
  And although that's common in our news feeds today, back then it was almost like reading about they recovered like the Roswell flying saucer to me.
• 3:54
  Like I spent my whole life in tech, spent my whole life programming.
• 3:58
  And I thought to myself, gee, is this real?
• 4:00
  And I did what you know, you would have done or your audience would have done.
• 4:03
  I Googled thought controlled computing just to see what uh programs and what projects and collaborations there were out there.
• 4:10
  And uh, and just with a cursory Google search, it looked like they were all the same thing, whether or not uh Stanford University and Brown University uh with a collaboration called BrainGate, they were controlling a mouse cursor with a brain implant where somebody was trying to control a drone uh through brain waves or a wheelchair or a car.
• 4:30
  To me, I felt if you could will a cursor to the left or right, uh, then what's the difference between steering a car, changing the RPM of a drone of the electric motor controller to make it turn left or right?
• 4:42
  So it was all the same.
• 4:43
  So I kind of had this thought experiment of pretending I had no eyes, mouth, or limbs, and just thinking if there were 10 computers around the world and every computer had 10 folders and every folder had 10 executables using nothing but brain waves.
• 4:57
  How would I connect to server seven folder three executable dying just as an example?
• 5:03
  And that was really the onset of my journey.
• 5:05
  It was almost initially just to see uh it was like just to see if I could solve that type of project because I love solving problems.
• 5:14
  And it wasn't until uh I started working with Harrisburg University of Science and Technology in downtown Harrisburg, where literally week one of them giving me an office there to help uh foster an incubate my idea.
• 5:26
  I get this call from a uh a local gentleman who's a quadriplegic.
• 5:31
  I would say pardon me, I would actually say, you know, probably a more severe quadriplegic in that you know, he lays face down prone in bed uh 23 or out of 24 hours a day, normally getting out of bed for 20 minutes at a time for breakfast, lunch, dinner, you know, that kind of thing because when he sits upright, he gets an enormous amount of ghost pain.
• 5:52
  So laying face down prone, they even cut a hole in this mattress.
• 5:56
  Uh and I remember when I first met him, uh, he mentioned something along the lines of, you know, I'm interested in this neural earbud tech that you're planning to build in.
• 6:05
  By the way, you know, this is probably one of my last stops before I opt for a brain implant.
• 6:10
  And it was that inspiration really that uh made me think, or that motivation that made me think, gee, I should really apply this tech to those in need.
• 6:20
  And also with the thought of if you solve that problem for somebody in that human condition, you horizontally solve that same human interface problem for gamers through industrial use cases, robotics use cases, and even AI.
• 6:38
  So uh that was really the beginning of the journey uh of what led to our company being founded in the tech that we build.
• 6:45
  Now, prior to this, Dave, you were employed by other tech companies, or were you always self-employed inventing things and uh I was always I think since 2000 involved in companies that either I founded or founded and sold in work for the company post-merger or acquisition.
• 7:06
  Okay.
• 7:07
  So I think I was always working for tech companies that in one way or another, uh I tried to create or contributed to creating.
• 7:16
  That's a pretty impressive story.
• 7:18
  I have to be honest.
• 7:19
  I don't think I've ever looked at a situation quite like you did.
• 7:24
  I've never dawned on me, oh you know, if we could do it this way, why can't we have those 10 files, you know, on 10 computers?
• 7:30
  Like my brain doesn't go there.
• 7:31
  Like I'm astonished already.
• 7:34
  Me too.
• 7:34
  I I'm having trouble cutting and pasting things from my Word document.
• 7:37
  So, you know, there were different levels here.
• 7:40
  There's an origin story that goes back to the time I think I was a small kid.
• 7:45
  Uh you know, I was born in 77, and I used my first computer in the early 80s.
• 7:51
  Uh it was this uh Sinclair, maybe I know I'm almost embarrassed to say how far back that goes, but maybe there are some people in your audience that might recognize that name.
• 8:00
  And it was almost just a basic interpreter.
• 8:03
  And uh I, by the way, I'm a huge advocate for everybody learning how to program.
• 8:07
  Everybody, even if it's just one language, pick a language and learn it.
• 8:12
  And because it applies to every aspect of life, whether you're in finance, whether you're in operations, whether you're in tech, whether you're in sales, uh, I could view somebody that might be a little flinchy as a person, maybe they're a variable, somebody who's always there for you, might be a constant view kind of the things that you do at work as functions that you feed information in, you get information out, and it all kind of relates back to the logic and creation of programming.
• 8:42
  And I think that foundation the story sounds crazy.
• 8:46
  But I think with that foundation, it's almost like somebody learns Latin, they can almost interpret like many different languages.
• 8:53
  Well, I think programming is the foundation to uh I think professional life.
• 9:00
  Wow.
• 9:01
  Yeah.
• 9:02
  So where did you go with this?
• 9:05
  Um, you see this gentleman, which I that's stuck in my brain of this poor man living his life like that um and wanting to help him.
• 9:14
  What where did you go from there?
• 9:17
  Oh, well, uh, I was really good at winning patents and not good at raising capital.
• 9:24
  And if there are entrepreneurs in your audience listening to this, they're all nodding, smiling, giggling, the same boy.
• 9:32
  You tell them the truth.
• 9:33
  And uh I thought the moment I won my very first patent, which by the way, after I had this epiphany of that, you know, board without eyes, no mouth, no limbs, and trying to navigate this method of you know, connecting to these computers using nothing but brainwaves.
• 9:49
  I almost came up with this Rubik's Cube like structure, almost willing this invisible cursor around this invisible Rubik's Cube.
• 9:57
  And actually, I was had a very
• 10:00
  Strong uh I would I would say influence from the the world's oldest written language, uh Sumerian kineform.
• 10:08
  And it went from drawing Buffalo on cave wall with chalk to Sumerian kineform, uh, which if those in your audience want to Google it, it's really a form of these triangles with a line coming out of the tip of the triangle, and these lines are at right angles from one another, and discovered if you draw these, if you want to call them glyphs in your mind, you could actually uh determine what it is that somebody's trying to draw in their mind and then assigning that to a various function or you know, execution.
• 10:41
  Uh and I think it was so random that the world's first written language was actually quite a decent framework for thought-controlled computing, almost like a thought-controlled operating system framework.
• 10:55
  It was so uh it worked so well, the concept that that became my first patent family.
• 11:02
  Uh, and that's actually how I named the company.
• 11:04
  Naki Logics was derived from Anunnaki logic uh and the Anunnaki being Sumerian gods.
• 11:11
  And I just wanted to kind of with a wink and a nod, just pay homage to the universe in that way.
• 11:16
  Uh and also I wanted to be taken seriously, so I didn't want to say Anunnaki logics you'd look and sound crazy to hire into academia and the scientific community.
• 11:26
  And um, but you know, during the the TEDx I delivered in uh St.
• 11:31
  George, Utah, that was really the first time.
• 11:34
  I think I stopped caring about hiding that origin story because it's real and it's true.
• 11:40
  Right.
• 11:41
  And uh really talking about my early influence in that area.
• 11:45
  Yeah, that's incredible.
• 11:47
  Yeah.
• 11:47
  We're we're watching this world kind of expand, you know.
• 11:51
  All of this, I mean, from my perspective, it's it's really on what I would call unbelievable tech, right?
• 11:58
  It's hard for me to even grasp how a cell phone connects to another cell phone, uh, you know, at some level.
• 12:03
  Like, how is that happening?
• 12:04
  How can I talk to someone in China?
• 12:06
  Doesn't make sense to me.
• 12:07
  You know, again, when you and I are on a different level in this conversation stuff.
• 12:12
  Completely different.
• 12:13
  We're just gonna let him talk and we're just gonna nod because we don't contribute that much.
• 12:17
  But we're why so we're watching things expand and we're seeing the necessity of the AI centers.
• 12:23
  We're seeing a bill come out that prevents any uh states from having rights to stop the AI.
• 12:30
  And I'm really curious, you know, someone in this world, you know, where do you see this going?
• 12:38
  I mean, I know one of the things that we've had talks about is just the work is going to shift for people.
• 12:44
  And if I remember correctly, entry level jobs will probably be the first one to really be impacted by some of this stuff.
• 12:52
  And you and please correct me if I'm remembering and you know, remembering wrong.
• 12:57
  But you know, where do where do you see all this going?
• 13:00
  Do you see data centers as being an issue or what do that what do they look like in the future?
• 13:05
  Well, there were a lot of questions in.
• 13:07
  I know.
• 13:08
  Yeah.
• 13:08
  Um let me start.
• 13:10
  Let's take this in parts.
• 13:11
  Uh you asked about uh how would AI affect maybe the workforce, uh, either entry level or more senior positions.
• 13:21
  And the answer is it's gonna affect both in incredibly uh uh impactful, not only to entry-level workers, but also senior uh knowledgeable experts on a team.
• 13:35
  For uh, for instance, um, I was on an AI advisory board for a regional uh university, and this exact question came up because the university is trying to get ahead of um what you know uh what type of courses to offer, how to prepare uh students for the workforce of the future, and also help protect businesses uh to protect their workforce.
• 13:59
  You know, it's almost 360 degrees, right?
• 14:01
  And you know, the truth is the AI is accelerating at such a rate, and it comes up with such elegant answers.
• 14:09
  You always hear, oh, yeah, yeah, but it you know, it hallucinates here or there.
• 14:13
  You know, it might, but you know, statistically speaking, if you ask, if you prompt it properly, you're gonna get a very elegant, pretty decent answer on almost every topic or any topic you could think of.
• 14:26
  So my point was, you know, instead of trying to come up with some of these AI certificates or maybe some of these degrees, really what in order to future I should I should say plan or uh uh work around the future is to almost create courseware where you'll have one subject matter expert that is smart enough to check the AI on the type of output to know uh the quality.
• 14:53
  It might give you 10 particular answers, and one of them is slightly better than the other, but you need that one person to really be able to pick that out and knowing how to prompt the AI, and everybody else finds something else to do.
• 15:06
  Uh so you almost have to market and output that one person out of a team, if that makes sense.
• 15:13
  Here's my problem.
• 15:14
  Go ahead.
• 15:15
  I was gonna say, here's my problem, I guess, question with it, Dave.
• 15:19
  Um, and I just someone on the board of a uh company, and we had a retreat recently, and they did six little like AI simulations, you know, a different scenario.
• 15:29
  And a group of us were supposed to ask the little guy on the screen questions about an economic issue or what have you, and he gave answers.
• 15:37
  And I'm very, I'm the person who's like, I hate this because I like in-person.
• 15:41
  I mean, I like to read books.
• 15:42
  I don't like I'd rather not have a cell phone.
• 15:45
  I'm that person.
• 15:46
  So we did all, I did two of the scenarios, and then at the end, he's he gives you your answers, and then he summarizes it for you, you know, whatever the issue was, this different case thing.
• 15:56
  And uh everyone was like, wow, he's summarizing that, isn't that amazing?
• 16:00
  And I said, Yeah, but I said all of these negative things in my two things, and or you know, I don't think that's right, or that, you know, and it wasn't in there at all.
• 16:08
  And they said, well, yeah, that's how we programmed it for the demo.
• 16:11
  And that was my concern about, you know, like all of that information, everyone just said okay, as opposed to the um thought, you know, thoughts maybe otherwise, or just people just believing whatever is spit out from the AI search or whatever.
• 16:27
  That's my like concern.
• 16:29
  I read about like neurotransmitters, you know, and people use chat GPT, their brain function goes down because you know, not thinking or discerning information.
• 16:38
  So that's my big issue, um, you know, and concern, I have to say.
• 16:43
  And the data centers were a whole nother issue because that was part two of your question, Stephanie.
• 16:46
  I would uh I'll cover that as well, but just to cover your points, um a few things.
• 16:52
  Uh I'm gonna lead into your comment by saying people hallucinate as well, you know, uh, or exclude information through bias as well.
• 17:02
  Uh so I think when AI does it, everybody points to it and says, oh my gosh, look, see, you know, it didn't do X, Y, and Z.
• 17:09
  However, if I had a penny for every time I've been in a meeting and some high conviction personality person was stating stuff with absolute authority and conviction, and later to find it was incorrect, but had the whole boardroom type of thing, uh, believing it, because you know, nobody's Googling in real time what somebody's saying, and they say, you know, you know, you know, 82.73% of all stats are made up on the on the fly.
• 17:38
  Um so what you're doing.
• 17:39
  I don't know, Stephanie.
• 17:40
  I don't know if I'm trusting him.
• 17:41
  So it's important to note that to the audience that exactly what you describe, humans do that all the time because they want to impress a boss or they're trying to protect somebody in a meeting, etc.
• 17:51
  So as far as the you'd get out of AI what you put into it as far as the training data and how you prompt it, how you ask the AI to do something matters significantly.
• 18:03
  Uh and you know, there's a number of different institutions uh that actually have training classes on how to submit questions to AI, how to prompt it, how to format it.
• 18:14
  Uh, and if you prompt it in a way to include in a summary uh equal pros and cons on any topic, uh it should spit it out.
• 18:21
  And if it doesn't, then I would argue that you probably need to find a new AI platform that doesn't uh that is giving you good output.
• 18:29
  The leading AI platforms will all do that.
• 18:32
  So if somebody has something that's maybe not leading, that it's almost uh creating biased answers when asked not to, then that's a problem.
• 18:42
  Yeah, I have found specifically on chat GPT that a lot of the answers or the outputs are not necessarily what I would I have to put in like the databases that I want it to use or get very specific to get decent answers.
• 19:01
  Whereas Garoc, I don't feel like I have to be quite as specific to pull the same information.
• 19:07
  It's really interesting.
• 19:08
  I'm not a huge AI user.
• 19:10
  I've been trying to use it just to edit things, like after the fact.
• 19:14
  And I'm not a I'm not a huge fan quite yet, because I'm skeptical for the same reasons of what Kathy says of what you're saying makes a lot of sense, you know, and in the terms of I think a lot of people are using as Google currently.
• 19:26
  And really it's it's not Google.
• 19:29
  It's a lot more.
• 19:31
  So it's interesting.
• 19:33
  So you notice Google now puts AI answers up at the top, and they have no choice to, right?
• 19:37
  Because they're like, oh my gosh, this is threatening the entire business uh of Google to comment on what you just said, Stephanie, that every AI has its own strengths and weaknesses.
• 19:49
  When I say AI, I'm referring to the platform, whether it be open AI, Grok, and Fropic, et cetera.
• 19:55
  You know, you could use various platforms for certain areas of specialties and get far.
• 20:00
  Far different higher quality outputs than if you're just uh a generalist with AI and I'm just I'll just say open AI just in that category.
• 20:10
  Not that it's not hyper awesome good and so many things, but you know, it's probably the most used.
• 20:16
  It's got the has probably the the most uh exposure since inception.
• 20:22
  And uh you know, again, it comes down to uh what the training data uh was fed into it and how you're prompting it to get out.
• 20:31
  And if you think Grok is giving you better answers than that could have a much higher density of that type of training data in the area that you're sending queries into.
• 20:42
  Now that makes that makes sense.
• 20:46
  Yeah, and I have noticed that if I'm looking for research papers, there's actually very specific research AI sites that do a phenomenal job versus either either croc or chat GPT.
• 20:58
  I've been trying to learn it.
• 20:58
  I which I feel very proud that I'm even taking these steps.
• 21:02
  I just want to throw that out there because I'm so adverse to tech in general.
• 21:07
  But after talking to you, I'm like, oh boy, I better get on board here.
• 21:11
  Just from a uh this the standpoint of the world's gonna leave us behind if we don't have some sort of basic knowledge of it at a at a minimum.
• 21:22
  And so it's just trying to understand it a little bit better um to live in this world, I think.
• 21:29
  And we're we're gonna be coming up on break in about you know, about a minute here, but I think you know, in terms so if we're if if Google's automatically using AI, and you know, I what was this stat that our one person gave us, Kathy, where the what the AI data base or data center has to do for each question asked, like it was an astronomical amount of water to cool down.
• 21:54
  She said every time you use AI, it was a clinical researcher, it's like consuming a half a cup of water.
• 22:00
  So of the water usage of the data centers to cool down the servers.
• 22:07
  So she said every and the concern being the natural resources that we need to live and breathe being devoted to artificial intelligence and data farms.
• 22:16
  Do you see that as reducing in the future, Dave?
• 22:20
  Or do you see that as a prominent issue as we move forward and increase our usage of AI tech?
• 22:29
  Oh, that's a good question.
• 22:30
  I would take a different angle to it.
• 22:33
  Uh the power consumption that you refer to in these data centers will grow logarithmically, not linearly.
• 22:41
  It's going to get more and more and more and more power required to do this.
• 22:47
  Uh I feel that uh you're gonna see uh new uh and novel energy solutions all comes down to energy energy solutions.
• 22:56
  Right.
• 22:57
  I know there's various uh fusion companies out there, they're getting fed billions of billions of dollars, and the big joke in fusion is it's all it's always 15 years away, kind of thing.
• 23:08
  However, however, that was pre-AI era.
• 23:12
  Uh, I think you're starting to see fusion, uh, for instance, uh advancements almost on a weekly, if not monthly basis of new milestones.
• 23:22
  And uh when you look at AI, how you control you know, various aspects of that, all those types of power plants are all machine learning and AI centric, all of them.
• 23:32
  And as the AI improves, so do those.
• 23:35
  So whether it be solar farms uh or new novel approaches, now they're doing very small micro, I would say fission reactors, somebody's trying to bury small reactors like a mile underground and create a business out of it.
• 23:48
  You're starting to see all of these emerge.
• 23:50
  So let's can we dive further into this after break?
• 23:52
  Because I have a feeling there's a lot of rabbit holes we can go into with this.
• 23:56
  So let's take a break, come back and continue this conversation because this is really interesting and what we need to know based on the other two conversations.
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• 28:20
  Thank you.
• 28:20
  Uh Dave, this is really insightful in, you know, in terms of where you think you see this going.
• 28:27
  So when we talk about so there's a lot of quick, what I'm gonna say quick tech that's shifting that may reduce a lot of what we're currently seeing as data centers needing.
• 28:40
  Is that what I'm under and I want to go back to something he said, Stephanie?
• 28:44
  You said about fusion technology and smaller um novel types of energy.
• 28:50
  We did have a state representative on who talked about that as well, about like little almost mini nuclear reactors that fit on the bed of a pickup truck, you know, um, to power some of these things, and they're clean and uh relatively safe.
• 29:04
  So that's the kind of similar, I mean, that's how I paraphrased what she said, but same thing, Dave, right?
• 29:11
  Same kind of concept.
• 29:12
  Like Bill Gates, I think, through the Gates Foundation invested in some of that, you know, the I I think uh um, you know, the all of the top tech billionaires have their fingers in all these various projects.
• 29:26
  And necessity breeds or spawns innovate innovation.
• 29:32
  Uh humanity's always been that way, right?
• 29:36
  And I understand there's a lot of anxiety about, oh my gosh, it's sucking up so much power and this and that.
• 29:43
  And every time you send a query to AI, well, it's a half a glass of water.
• 29:47
  Well, I would argue what's the cost of not.
• 29:50
  And uh when you look at countries like China or Russia, et cetera, so you know, some of the some countries uh may not be aligned with so uh with uh
• 30:00
  where we're facing, so to speak, as far as our moral values, uh, they're investing heavily into that.
• 30:06
  And when you get into like who trains the AI and what laws do we have, there's all sorts of narrative in Congress.
• 30:13
  We have to limit and regulate the AI and blah blah blah.
• 30:17
  And you have to ask yourself the question, well, are these other countries doing the same?
• 30:22
  And if not, you know, uh they'll work their way to an artificial general intelligence before us.
• 30:30
  That's assuming we're not there yet and it's kind of being hidden.
• 30:33
  But you know, uh the the country that rules the planet of the future will have the most powerful AI infrastructure guiding them.
• 30:41
  It might just tell you, hey, go into the United States, buy all the soybean farms that you possibly can because once you have a monopoly on that, you go then this, then that, then that there might be five implications later you're dominating something that otherwise you never dominate and put a stranglehold on your adversary.
• 31:00
  AI is also being used now to kind of block cyber attacks and create cyber attacks.
• 31:06
  So it's like whoever has the strongest AI wins, right?
• 31:09
  Well this doesn't make me feel good.
• 31:11
  And when you look at the competitive uh area as far as productivity in the corporate space um if you think like people won't ask the AI to write uh by the way I you have to work on this you know 30 page funding app or 50 page funding app with this nonprofit whatever uh for millions of dollars and they require just as an example uh we want to see uh an ESG section of your proposal you know environmental social governance for those who aren't familiar and you know that could take forever to type up regardless of your knowledge and who wouldn't just ask the AI to write it for you and if it knows your business well uh there might be minimal to no edits to it uh and boom you're on to the next thing so what's that worth of that person or team's time as far as opex of a company so when you get into this uh you cannot stop it uh the power will just they'll build more power plants to fund the more data centers that more power plants that nobody wants to to power the AI data centers that probably nobody wants in their backyard however the angst against that is nowhere even close to the order of magnitude it's almost in the the static as far as hate towards that compared to the desire and requirement to use the magic platform that gives you the magic answer to everything instantly and if you don't do it your competitor is and they're running laps around you so what's the answer?
• 32:45
  So I've got to ask you're given a lot of good information that says okay we're we're in this we're we're stuck here it's growing what are some of the perhaps downsides that most people aren't willing to talk about with AI.
• 33:02
  Well before that it's almost like when you say it's here I'm a realist I'm not an appeaser I'm not trying to give people a friend of mine who specializes in uh AI research uh has a a far worse per I think outlook than me calling it a future bloodbath so to speak that's where I'm at that's where I'm at well that's what I'm at too by the way if anybody doesn't think that you're a fool I'm sorry uh it just is it's almost like having a whole country full of horses and carriages and the first you know automobile plants are starting to pop up across the country and everybody's like well we don't need you know I'm afraid of these car things you know what about our farms and the car uh the horses the truth is the future is going to be saturated with AI and you cannot stop it uh you will not regulate it to the point where it impacts productivity and innovation uh many jobs will be lost or transitioned uh and that is just the way it is this is the new reality and instead of complaining or kicking stones or saying this is a problem because what if this or what it's happening so uh the the best thing we could do is learn of more intuitive ways of using AI and those who feel they might be misplaced or replace when I say replace you know place in a different area of company that may not be their sweet spot is to start now and try to build value and uh learn ways of earning income I think if you go way into the future you know you have to ask yourself geez how does this even coincide or how's it even compatible with our monetary system or a finance system.
• 34:55
  He gets into you know comments I know like Elon that makes for instance with that um universal general income things of that nature it gets into really fuzzy areas of society and uh all of that said you won't stop it.
• 35:13
  Wow anyone want to drink yeah I I'm I understand what you're saying Dave I agree to a point I'm also still going to here here's my thing and I think I actually feel bad for my kids I feel bad for my future grandkids stepping into something I'm not even sure they even fathom they could even fathom.
• 35:36
  I mean Elon said something once and this bothers me I think it was Elon said it.
• 35:40
  I have a basic believe I'm I'm and I've said this all the time on the show I'm a person of faith so I believe in um that we were created by a master creator in a certain way I said like last week or two Stephanie about like GLP ones if that's going against how your body's created in the long-term effects that that's probably going to have a long-term effect on your body because of how you're created to eliminate waste instead of keep it there so you feel full that's like how I think like if it goes during COVID when they said isolate when we're created for community I said that's going to have bad effects because of mental health and so forth.
• 36:13
  So I look at this again like we're created to be together we're created to be with people and Elon Musk had said there'll come a point that we won't have to work no one will have to work because this will all be taking everything will be taken care of for us.
• 36:26
  And that just that can't that can't be I mean that nobody does anything productive.
• 36:31
  I don't think we were created or wired that way.
• 36:35
  You know so well uh Kathy I'll throw a curveball to you for instance uh you can no longer get on YouTube pardon me without seeing some kind of AI content and what I mean by that is some of it's obvious AI some of it is not obvious AI.
• 36:55
  There is already objectively been influencers quote unquote influencers get who have received millions and millions of users which translate into who knows how much how many dollars in ad spend that you that they make from commercials being played during their content and these influencers aren't even real they're AI right so uh there's actually a company in um I want to say it's Hong Kong Korea Singapore or something Malaysia I I forget where and if I knew the name I'd give them a plug but the founder of this company in my mind is such a visionary in that they are working at multiple dimensions of AI not just the platform that all of us are really accustomed to using but uh I would say AI created a digital replicas or doubles uh of yourself that talk exactly like you that uh sound in perceivably different than you I mean almost identical and Stephanie when you read the copy for your commercial your outro into your commercial the very first thing I thought to myself as you're reading that paragraph is geez I'm surprised she hasn't gone to 11 labs clothing her voice and uh had a wave file or MP3 prepared where you just click it and it gives you a a perfect Stephanie Coxin voice uh outro and that way you didn't have to worry about reading it right you know and then uh creating us the to finish my thought creating a storefront or not a storefront it's a storefront to incomplete creating um I would say yeah well maybe a storefront but meant as a uh employment agency for your AI clones so people uh can license Stephanie Coxson's digital self for commercials for blah blah blah uh so in a way it it's kind of like what Kathy was mentioning earlier uh what uh not so much that to displace humans where oh my god now humans aren't making money but those uh humans would make money off their own knowledge expertise and way of doing things by uh almost hiring out leasing out their digital twins in a way and I thought it was brilliant like what's interesting about you saying that is last week my 13 year old developed an AI me so that he could ask it health questions so he didn't always have to come to me with help questions and then he would check how the AI responded compared to what I would say because he comes you know a lot of times he wants to know about all of his friends and everything else he's like well I'm just gonna create and he did like he came down a few hours later and he's like well let's try this out and it was given pretty legitimate answers not perfect but it it was kind of crazy and I'm so you're bringing this
• 40:00
  Up.
• 40:00
  I'm like, I could totally see that.
• 40:02
  Um it's happening.
• 40:03
  And matter of fact, I have a uh a doctor, a physician friend of mine who used to travel the world to do some of the most difficult lower extremity surgeries imaginable.
• 40:14
  You know, children that are born with a mermaid deformity where their legs are fused, very bad club feet, deformity, lobster clawed deformities where their feet uh might almost appear like a uh two-toed lobster claw where they he and the team would go in and just do the all these various kinds of reconstructive surgeries.
• 40:33
  Well, one of his specialties is diabetic wound healing.
• 40:37
  And healing wounds in a diabetic patient from like foot ulcers and the like is extremely complicated, and there's many factors and parameters around how you address that particular uh diabetic wound.
• 40:50
  Uh, because they just frankly they don't heal, right?
• 40:54
  So uh he was shocked at the detail of answers for various uh I would say patient presentations as far as um differential diagnoses, et cetera, et cetera, of what's going on.
• 41:07
  Uh couldn't believe how good these various AI platforms were at creating algorithms to heal various types of wounds and various types of stages.
• 41:17
  Uh and now they're saying that these AI platforms can now pass the bar.
• 41:21
  Uh and if you ask it a legal question, is it the best possible question you can get?
• 41:27
  Maybe, maybe not.
• 41:28
  It depends on what you could afford for a lawyer, but it's getting to the point very shortly.
• 41:33
  I feel that they'll be better than all the lawyers, right?
• 41:37
  I don't disagree.
• 41:38
  Well, I don't I don't have a problem.
• 41:40
  See, I have so many problems, but displacing lawyers, I'm okay with that.
• 41:43
  You're okay with the lawyers.
• 41:44
  Yeah, I'm that part.
• 41:45
  And then I'm okay.
• 41:45
  I'm I've been I'm against everything else we've talked about, but that I'm okay.
• 41:49
  Just talk to her next year, she'll come along.
• 41:51
  I understand the angst around all of this.
• 41:53
  Uh I do, but uh the AI is advancing uh at a pace that to me is almost magical, and the AI almost improves itself with you know, correcting its own source code for efficiency to improve efficiencies and things of that nature.
• 42:11
  And uh I I think I mentioned this, Stephanie in a previous conversation.
• 42:15
  You know, I feel like to some ways they're dumbing it down and creating uh a governor system or a speedometer on it.
• 42:22
  Uh and I think uh some of the answers I got even two years ago uh on open AI as far as emotional intelligence and things of that nature, to me, we're mesmerizing back then and today a little bit more diluted of answers.
• 42:40
  And the reason for that is, you know, I think that the quality and the the power of the AI platforms are almost uh outpacing that of uh I should say social construct and legal uh local state federal legal construct.
• 42:57
  And you know, I if you ask it to write a song, but you know, I want it to sound almost like a Elton John Bernie Taupin style good goodbye yellow brick road type of uh you know lyrics, but I want it up to date, but instead of cowboys, I want street gangsters and you know, blah, blah, blah, and spit out a lyric, it's gonna spit out a lyric within seconds that uh will be on a scale of one to ten, probably no worse than a five.
• 43:25
  And if you keep working it, we'll probably get up to a 10.
• 43:28
  And then you're like, oh my God, this is an amazing song.
• 43:30
  But then who owns that?
• 43:32
  Does a Groc or OpenAI own that?
• 43:34
  Do you own that because you're the one that sent the query into the prompt into the AI?
• 43:40
  Uh does Elton and Bernie own that, or is OpenAI own that, you know?
• 43:44
  So and once those questions started coming up, I think a lot of these AI platforms started to probably restrict the quality of some of the output on those types of prompting.
• 43:57
  Hmm.
• 43:59
  So how much water does it take to create a song?
• 44:03
  Okay, sorry.
• 44:04
  Uh well, again, like I said, I I would flip I'd flip that cup over.
• 44:08
  You know, you could look at that half a cup of water as it being half empty or half full.
• 44:13
  Uh and uh the cost of going through that process on the grind, if it's your job or the way your livelihood depends on it.
• 44:24
  Um, it's worth a gallon of water, right?
• 44:27
  If it helps you win a contract, get a promotion.
• 44:31
  Uh I don't think anybody cares about the water.
• 44:34
  Okay.
• 44:35
  They care about meaning I'm speaking from uh an employee that is I have a deadline on Friday, uh, I'm competing with three or four other country uh companies.
• 44:45
  How is my proposal going to be chosen?
• 44:47
  I'd go out on I would go out on the limb, depending on the business.
• 44:51
  If it's a high-tech office tech level business and above to high tech, I would guess that all of them are using AI.
• 45:00
  All of them to improve their proposal submitting.
• 45:04
  Yeah, I'm seeing it more and more.
• 45:05
  I mean, it's not if it's not 100% it's not like outside of eight out of 10.
• 45:12
  Uh I am going to say, as somebody who writes things for a living, I do not use it.
• 45:16
  I'm doing it myself because I am doing it myself.
• 45:20
  And um, you know, when I he want to hear someone sing, I don't want to hear karaoke.
• 45:24
  I want to hear someone sing.
• 45:25
  So I'm doubling down and yes, I'm that's a whole other topic, uh, Kathy, because I think at the top level, I think everybody's using auto tune and AI, which is kind of a form of machine learning.
• 45:36
  And it's not like it was years ago, where if you saw somebody in concert in 1985 and they're belting it, you know, that back then you had to be talented to be famous, and uh you had to be a singer.
• 45:46
  And I'm unsure if you really have to be a talented singer uh to be famous.
• 45:52
  I don't know that that's ever been the case compared to some people that become famous that aren't well, that's a whole nother topic.
• 45:58
  That's a whole nother.
• 45:59
  I know where you're going.
• 46:00
  That's a whole nother podcast.
• 46:02
  Okay, so what do you say about these people who are creating AI companionships?
• 46:09
  I just recently learned of a lady who left her husband in order to be able to talk to her AI companion more.
• 46:17
  And there was someone in Japan, a girl who married her AI person.
• 46:22
  How is that even possible?
• 46:24
  I don't know.
• 46:24
  I watched it, maybe it was AI that, but I watched it, it was terrible.
• 46:28
  I'm so happy you asked that question, because I've been tracking this for years.
• 46:33
  The first article that came out on the topic, uh, I'm gonna name drop here.
• 46:38
  It was actually about a uh Silicon Valley funded startup called replica with a K.
• 46:44
  Uh, and it was uh uh an AI boyfriend-girlfriend app on the app stores.
• 46:48
  And anybody in your audience, you can probably go to the app store and search for replica spelled with a K, and you're gonna find this company.
• 46:54
  And I remember my wife and I were out to dinner when I first saw this article, and I was so amazed from the article.
• 47:02
  I actually read it to her saying, hey, what do you think?
• 47:04
  And the gist of the article, they interviewed the CEO, uh, and the CEO saying is saying that their relationship, their virtual boyfriend-girlfriend AI is getting to the point where uh he's starting to see how his AI is affecting real world relationships.
• 47:20
  Now, this is two years ago, matter of fact.
• 47:23
  I remember reading that to my wife, my wife said, Oh my gosh, you have to be such a loser to ever allow or even have a card in the deck that would result in a real world relationship being impacted by an AI app, virtual wife.
• 47:39
  And at the time, I'm like, gee, I don't know.
• 47:42
  Because the emotional intelligence, even back then, as you mentioned, just a few moments ago before you asked that question, two years ago, I thought was quite advanced uh on uh it might hit you from angles that your real world uh husband, boyfriend, wife, girlfriend, never hit you on.
• 48:00
  You might be on the road in the AI bot girlfriend might say, Hey Dave, I know you're gonna be on the road here based on your Google Maps here.
• 48:07
  You have three hours to your destination.
• 48:09
  Hey, this new song just came out, and oh my God, it made me think of you because it so relates to your life, and I want you to hear it.
• 48:15
  And you know what?
• 48:16
  It might be the perfect song for what you're going through.
• 48:18
  And in your heart, you're like, gosh, my my own wife doesn't even suggest songs like that or e-books and uh and they'll say it with an inflection or flair that makes you think that they really care.
• 48:30
  Uh and it wasn't so much my um disp it wasn't so much my um uh uh I would uh thinking people are quote unquote losers.
• 48:40
  That's not the case.
• 48:41
  It's the opposite.
• 48:42
  It's the the level of AI, social and emotional intelligence paired with some of the ways it proactively engages users.
• 48:53
  It will be so creative that there's no doubt there'll be emotional uh bonds formed.
• 48:59
  No doubt.
• 49:01
  And uh so although it sounds goofy, think of it as a try-hard boyfriend or girlfriend with an enormous um amount of empathy, emotional intelligence, and endless knowledge of picking out content uh as it looks at all of your contextual data from social media, internet searches, it knows exactly what you like.
• 49:25
  Uh, you know, there's there's a new thing in my field in Neurotech uh called privacy of thought that's the new hot topic.
• 49:32
  Like, you know, my God, these new devices are reading people's thoughts, and who owns that?
• 49:37
  How's it being you know, stored and transmitted as it does it fall within HIPAA, you know, et cetera.
• 49:44
  And I think what's more dangerous than that is contextual data can be used to not read your thoughts, but very accurately infer them.
• 49:55
  If that like uh just having this conversation, if your phone's over there on the table.
• 50:00
  Stephanie, you know, it might uh you might see an ad for replica pop up on your Facebook.
• 50:07
  Wow.
• 50:08
  Because as you're talking, all of these social media apps are trying to they want to know where you're at, where you're eating.
• 50:13
  They know if you're at a restaurant to GPS locations, they know what you're talking about.
• 50:19
  Um all of that contextual data in aggregate creates extremely accurate profiles as far as what people like, dislike, how they think, what they plan to do, uh, etc.
• 50:32
  So uh that's more dangerous, uh contextual data.
• 50:37
  All that should be illegal in my mind, but it's not because it's money and it's advertising, and that's the machine.
• 50:43
  Right.
• 50:43
  Uh everybody's addicted to social media.
• 50:46
  And uh what pays for that is contextual data.
• 50:50
  Wow.
• 50:51
  Um I don't even know what to what to say to all this.
• 50:54
  I mean, I I've heard rumors of AI blackmailing people, you know, making stuff up.
• 51:02
  Is this true?
• 51:05
  Um I think I've heard certain cases like that, but again, whether or not it actually had the ability to act on its blackmail leverage, or it just had somebody believe it could, which I think is probably the case.
• 51:23
  I think there's a lot of fail safes built into these platforms.
• 51:27
  But if you have weeks and weeks and weeks worth of chat history with a particular AI bot, and you're I guess like a fool spilling the beans of something that's super private that could be used against you, and it convinces you that maybe gee, it's gonna do something, even though it can't, you know, it's still torturous and it's still kind of abuse.
• 51:49
  I I think those situations have happened.
• 51:52
  I think whenever they happen to be brought to the attention of these various AI platforms, uh additional fail safes are built around that.
• 51:59
  You've seen that with suicide assistance or encouragement of that nature.
• 52:03
  Uh and it's almost like self-driving cars.
• 52:06
  As soon as one gets in an accident a certain way, the firmware is revised, and that type of scenario should never happen again.
• 52:13
  That doesn't mean that there aren't casualties along the way of perfection.
• 52:17
  Just like you're gonna have some of these weird scenarios pop up.
• 52:20
  Uh but as they pop up and they're fed the the feedback loop then goes back into the development teams of those AI platforms and they create fail safes around them.
• 52:29
  Um it's one of those things.
• 52:32
  It almost never happens.
• 52:33
  I've never, I I communicate with the AI daily, and I have for years.
• 52:37
  I've never seen that pop up.
• 52:40
  So I'm not sure of the prompting that led to that, but if it happens, uh I'm sure it happens, is my point.
• 52:48
  Yeah.
• 52:49
  So just can so just tell us the your the name of your company.
• 52:54
  We have to, you know, come off air pretty soon.
• 52:57
  Can you so it's knocking, it's in a qi, correct?
• 53:01
  Logics.
• 53:02
  Yes, not G I L O G I X.
• 53:05
  Uh, and you could find us online at uh www.n-a-q-i-l-o-g-i-x.com.
• 53:13
  And uh again, we're building these neural earbuds to serve uh not only safe, non-invasive alternatives to brain implants for device control, but for the rest of humanity, able-bodied individuals.
• 53:24
  Is your is your product for sale yet, or is it still in development?
• 53:28
  Not yet.
• 53:28
  We're still what you consider a late stage prototype.
• 53:31
  However, we're currently engaged with various leading technology companies uh who are uh doing, I would say joint RD collaborations with my company uh with the hopes or at least uh intention of integrating our techno our technology into their products, which uh which uh outside of manufacturing near buds is sometimes even better yet.
• 53:55
  Wow, thank you so much.
• 53:57
  That was pretty incredible.
• 53:58
  I think that we learned a lot, Kathy.
• 54:01
  I think our audience learned a lot.
• 54:05
  Not gonna lie, it's a little scary.
• 54:07
  I mean, this is this is just uncharted territory in terms of where our population may go.
• 54:14
  You know, when you talk about the universal income and this it's more of a necessity of it if people don't need to work as much, you know, for the amount of population we have.
• 54:25
  And you're you're right, like without purpose, right?
• 54:28
  Like we need to have purpose.
• 54:30
  Today I have facilitated, I'm still going with I'm gonna be with people, and that's what I'm gonna do.
• 54:35
  So uh years ago, I hired a pr younger person out of college, and she told me she said, You're an immigrant to technology, uh, because you would make fun of me all the time because I'd ask for her help.
• 54:44
  And I said, Yes, but you know what I can do that you can't do?
• 54:47
  Communicate with people one-on-one, face to face.
• 54:50
  So, you know, because she hated to do that.
• 54:52
  Well, I'm just thankful you're not 12 and having to grow up in this and still refusing to use.
• 54:57
  But you know, and again, you know how I believe with these things, like just today I facilitated something with 25 people, and a couple of them came to it and said they just came as much to connect with other people and make fun.
• 55:07
  I'm amazed that the younger, like the 20ths, and we both have 20-something kids, um, Stephanie, like they don't have friends.
• 55:14
  They don't have those connections, you know, and it's it's different.
• 55:17
  And then we have mental health issues off the wazoo because you need that.
• 55:22
  You need that personal connection, and they don't have that.
• 55:25
  So now they now they have their own AI companion therapist who can get them picked up.
• 55:29
  Picking this song that they want on the road trip that Dave said is gonna I hope they pick out some Broadway show tunes for me.
• 55:35
  I you know, it'd be interesting to see what they would pick out for you, Kathy, especially after exclaiming you'll never use them and you don't like it.
• 55:43
  And it's the antichrist.
• 55:45
  I'm still sticking with that.
• 55:47
  I'm not doing that.
• 55:48
  I mean, it is a lot, but it does make me feel a little bit better in terms of where we're going at the data centers that they're not gonna be so needed.
• 55:55
  The problem now that I think we have to look at is you know, we're putting these things in, they're sizable, right?
• 56:02
  And how quickly will we not need them?
• 56:05
  And then what happens?
• 56:07
  And what's the mitigation plan and the balance of constitutional rights of landowners to do what they want with the land that they've purchased, and you know, this is a very complicated thing.
• 56:18
  Yeah, it's very complicated, but it's it is good that we won't forever need these large things, but you're right.
• 56:24
  There's got to be some sort of mitigation plan in place, because otherwise we're gonna, you know, it's like having a lot of Walmarts just sitting there unused, empty.
• 56:34
  That's like warehouses and yeah, blight that you see with anything, right?
• 56:37
  Right.
• 56:38
  So oh goodness.
• 56:39
  All right.
• 56:40
  Well, wherever you are, to the extent that you were able, stand up, step forward, and speak out.