Latest / Karl and Crew / Spiritual Posture towards the End Times with Dr. Sam Storms & Christian Ministry in the Age of AI with Jason Thacker

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Spiritual Posture towards the End Times with Dr. Sam Storms & Christian Ministry in the Age of AI with Jason Thacker · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined. Start
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  S1: your morning with a laugh.
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  S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not
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  S2: tricks but tips and tricks. Tips and tricks to kill.
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  S2: Tips and tricks.
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  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S3: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up
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  S3: with achievement and good works. Well, God wasn't impressed by that,
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  S3: even if other people were.
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  S2: The gospel changes everything.
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  S4: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement
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  S4: just falling to the ground.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S5: Oh, man. Guys, when you think about AI and, um. Ah, I'm.
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  S5: I'm a little bit discouraged this morning, to be honest
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  S5: with you. Oh, no. Yeah, I got up really early, and.
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  S5: And I spent too much time looking at what's going
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  S5: on on X. And these culture wars are out of control.
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  S5: And then you add to that the layer of AI
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  S5: and you don't even know what's real anymore. And I'm
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  S5: glad for community notes or whatever they are on, on
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  S5: X that allows people to identify when things are fake.
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  S5: But you look at AI and you look at the
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  S5: advancement of intelligence, right? And you think, wow, where in
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  S5: the world is this going? One of the things that
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  S5: we want to do is allow your fears and allow
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  S5: you to embrace different technologies in a way that you're like, wow,
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  S5: we got a handle on this. We know how to
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  S5: filter the junk and we're using it to the glory
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  S5: of God. Jason Thacker, our guest right now, assistant Prof
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  S5: of philosophy and ethics at Boyce College in Southern Seminary
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  S5: in Louisville, Kentucky. He's senior fellow in bioethics and director
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  S5: of research Institute at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission man.
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  S5: You got a lot of titles there, my man. Can
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  S5: you live up to it?
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  S6: I don't know about that, but it's good to be
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  S6: with you all this morning.
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  S5: Hey, man. Uh, Jason h and I've said this a
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  S5: lot around here. When the printing press came about back
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  S5: in the day, there was some real genuine fear about that.
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  S5: There's downsides to anything new, but there's huge upsides as well.
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  S5: Let's let's go into the downside first. Let's just go there.
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  S5: What's the downside of AI, Jason.
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  S6: Yeah, this is definitely one of those revolutionary technologies. And
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  S6: I think a lot of people say, man, this is
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  S6: just a tool. It's just a tool we use. That's
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  S6: all it really is. But I want to say, even
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  S6: the printing press, it wasn't just a tool. It did something.
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  S6: It changed us. It formed us. It made a new
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  S6: society in many ways. And the ways we communicate and
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  S6: interact with one another. AI is doing that too. It's
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  S6: one of those technologies that I don't think is truly intelligent.
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  S6: It's not like us as human beings, but nevertheless, it
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  S6: is forming and shaping us in really profound ways. Just
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  S6: as you said, Carl, even social media, the algorithms that
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  S6: we see every day, this isn't just a ChatGPT thing.
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  S6: This is something that you've been using for a very
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  S6: long time, just maybe not have known about it. And
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  S6: I think it's high time that the Christian church step
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  S6: into these conversations, to step in, to bring that hope,
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  S6: to bring that resoluteness of who God is and what
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  S6: he's done for us through Christ, and bring that to
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  S6: bear on these emerging technologies like AI, where there is
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  S6: a lot of fear, there's a lot of anxiety at times,
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  S6: but God's Word is more than sufficient to help us
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  S6: navigate these challenges.
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  S3: Jason, you said that this is something we've been using
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  S3: for some time and maybe haven't realized. Explain that a
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  S3: little bit more.
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  S6: Yeah. I mean, back in 2020, I released my book,
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  S6: The Age of AI Artificial Intelligence in the Future of Humanity.
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  S6: And I think at times I had friends that were like,
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  S6: that's kind of cute. I'm glad you're working on that.
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  S6: You know, it's not that big of a deal. And
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  S6: it's kind of funny to me because now this is
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  S6: what everyone wants to talk about. And I say that
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  S6: to say is we've always been using it for our
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  S6: communication tools to our banking, to economics, to the stock market,
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  S6: to national defense and everything in between. Your little smartphone
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  S6: is smart because it's powered by some form of artificial intelligence,
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  S6: whether it's Apple's AI or Google or what have you,
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  S6: is we're using these tools every single day, but especially
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  S6: with the generative push that ChatGPT and meta and anthropic
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  S6: and all of those type of tools, there is something
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  S6: that's changing and it's interesting. And as we approach these tools,
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  S6: they're not just neutral tools, they're doing something to us.
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  S6: They're forming our perspective of God, what who God is
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  S6: and what he's done, what who we are as human beings.
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  S6: I think the most important question we can be asking today,
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  S6: as well as the way we think about the world
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  S6: around us, uh, these are not neutral tools. They're forming
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  S6: and shaping us in very, very, very particular ways.
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  S5: Yeah, I'm throw a curveball here. Have you cogitated thought
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  S5: at all about, uh, end times with regard to AI
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  S5: strength and ability to penetrate the masses and even communicate
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  S5: large volumes of content It to billions of people. The
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  S5: power of AI almost brings end times theology, and I'm
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  S5: not predicting we don't do that here. We don't go
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  S5: a day or hour. We don't do that. There's a
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  S5: lot of cycles in history, but the advent of AI
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  S5: brings a whole new layer to the ability for a
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  S5: future Antichrist to communicate with the world. Right? Jason.
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  S6: Yeah. And that's the interesting thing is almost every generation,
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  S6: especially as technological developments come out, say, oh, maybe this
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  S6: is it, maybe this is it. And it may in
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  S6: some sense we go, well, there's obviously ways that these
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  S6: tools can be used. I mean, even Ephesians 612 tells
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  S6: us we don't wrestle against principalities and powers of evil,
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  S6: not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers
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  S6: of evil. It's true that there's a spiritual warfare going on.
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  S6: I think it's sometimes it's easy for us to assume, oh,
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  S6: this is it. And what I would say is that
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  S6: at the end of the day, this is the hope
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  S6: of the gospel, is that Jesus wins. I think often
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  S6: we approach these tools as if we're scared, we're overwhelmed,
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  S6: we're fearful, and they are very powerful. But Jesus wins.
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  S6: The end of the story is written. And so I
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  S6: think that's the posture that Christians must take in approaching
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  S6: any cultural, political and social issue. But even things like
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  S6: artificial intelligence, there's a lot of mystery. There's a lot
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  S6: of fear at times, but Jesus wins. The end of
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  S6: the story is written. So we are called to live
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  S6: in light of that in every single aspect of our lives.
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  S6: So I don't think we have to give in to say,
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  S6: is this it is this overwhelming what's going to happen here?
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  S6: Because you know, Jesus is sovereign, Jesus is King. He's
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  S6: over all of these things. And I think that gives
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  S6: us a lot of hope. Um, that, that hope in
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  S6: the second coming, the hope that the end of the
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  S6: story is written. So how then do we step into
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  S6: these conversations with hope and to use these tools to
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  S6: bring about the spreading of the gospel to the ends
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  S6: of the nations?
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  S3: Jason Thacker, our guest this morning, we mentioned he's the
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  S3: senior fellow in bioethics and director of the Research Institute
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  S3: at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission coming up, let's
• 6:56
  S3: talk a little bit more about AI and ministry, AI
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  S3: and the church. What do we need to know so
• 7:02
  S3: that we can think and act rightly more? Coming up
• 7:05
  S3: here on Carl and crew.
• 7:08
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 7:11
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 7:15
  S3: Got a special guest with us this morning, Jason Thacker.
• 7:17
  S3: He's senior fellow in bioethics and director of the Research
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  S3: Institute at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. You know,
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  S3: when we think about AI in the church, it's the
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  S3: basic question people want to know is, should the pastor
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  S3: use AI or ChatGPT to help write sermons? But it
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  S3: goes deeper than that. I mean, that's the one. I
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  S3: think it's the most obvious. Should we be creating things
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  S3: using AI? But talk a little bit more about the
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  S3: integration of AI in the church in ways that we
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  S3: may not have even thought of yet?
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  S6: Yeah. Every technological tool is designed for efficiency and convenience
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  S6: and speed. That's why we do anything. That's why we
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  S6: may be using a Waze app to get to work.
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  S6: We know how to get there, but it may get this.
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  S6: Get us there a little bit faster. And a lot
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  S6: of those questions are happening in the church as well,
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  S6: especially with routine administrative tasks and things. But I think
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  S6: one of the things we have to recognize, going back
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  S6: to that first segment, is that these tools are not neutral.
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  S6: They're shaping us. They're forming us in very, very, very
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  S6: particular ways. And we need to be aware of that.
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  S6: I think especially in an age of efficiency and speed,
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  S6: we need to sometimes slow down to say that wisdom
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  S6: and virtue is actually something gained very slowly. I think
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  S6: of Proverbs. I think it's 16 or 17, where there's
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  S6: glory and gray hair, and some of us will give
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  S6: an amen to that this morning. There's something about slowing
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  S6: down in the cultivation of wisdom. And so I think
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  S6: we need to be really aware of the way these
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  S6: tools are shaping and forming us. Just because we can
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  S6: do something doesn't mean we should. It doesn't mean that
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  S6: it's the wisest thing. We can use these tools for
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  S6: a lot of different things, but should we? Is that
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  S6: good for us? Is that good for our people, especially
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  S6: in the context of local church?
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  S5: I'm so glad you're an ethics prof, because I'm going
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  S5: to pitch you the question here. When should the line
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  S5: for efficiency end and hard work and sweat equity begin?
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  S5: What's the line? What's the principle here?
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  S6: That is the million dollar question. I could sell a
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  S6: lot of books if I could answer that one precisely.
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  S6: Part of that depends on the person. I think that's interesting.
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  S6: Even Karl, you mentioned earlier about being on X this morning.
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  S6: You know, for me, it's actually not good for my soul.
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  S6: It's not good for my ministry. It's not good for
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  S6: me as a husband and a father and a pastor
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  S6: to engage in a lot on social media. That's a
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  S6: personal decision that knowing my temptations, knowing my proclivities, knowing
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  S6: kind of myself, that's not super wise for me to
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  S6: use a lot of social media. But that doesn't mean
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  S6: that social media itself is bad. And so I think
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  S6: we need to be kind of aware, especially with these tools,
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  S6: that there may be some who can use these tools
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  S6: in wise ways and virtuous ways, and others who need
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  S6: to back off a little bit on it. But again,
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  S6: I think the end of the day is, especially if
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  S6: you're putting your name on something, you need to be
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  S6: the one who's done it. You need to have integrity
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  S6: in all of your ways. That's a key theme of
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  S6: Proverbs in the wisdom literature throughout the scriptures. Having integrity.
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  S6: And I think we need to be aware of our
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  S6: emotional state at times. We need to be aware of
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  S6: the way people perceive and to also make sure we're
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  S6: not seeking to short circuit the growth process, the end
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  S6: of the idea of just what we accomplish sometimes, yeah,
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  S6: that's important, but the way we get there also matters.
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  S6: And I think that really matters in the AI conversation.
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  S5: Okay. As an ethics prof and a man committed to
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  S5: the Lordship of Jesus Christ, you know, just this this morning,
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  S5: I actually had a conviction from the Holy Spirit. It's like, no, I,
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  S5: I can't, can't do this, can't do this, I really can't.
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  S5: And yet I notice I have dear friends that are
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  S5: on there constantly that are in the cultural square. How
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  S5: does a person discern by the power of the spirit
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  S5: whether or not it's okay for you or not?
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  S6: Yeah, that's a great question as well. I mean, not
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  S6: only is that a personal conscience thing, we know that
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  S6: if we are indeed in Christ. Colossians three tells us
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  S6: that the Spirit of God dwells in us. Um, and
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  S6: knowing that you have the conviction of the spirit, but
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  S6: you also do so in community. I think sometimes in
• 11:06
  S6: the nature of the Christian life, we think it's kind
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  S6: of Lone Ranger Christianity. It's me and Jesus. It's actually
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  S6: us in the church. It's it's God, it's Christ in
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  S6: the church together in community. We're designed for community. We
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  S6: need community. And so we need to have brothers and
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  S6: sisters in our lives that can point out those things,
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  S6: to have honest conversations who love, love, love us enough
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  S6: to confront us, who love us enough to tell us
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  S6: the truth, even when that truth is sometimes hard to hear.
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  S6: And so that's even what my especially with me being
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  S6: on social media, but also kind of just being in
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  S6: the public square in general. Um, I had good friends,
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  S6: brothers in Christ say, hey, I don't know if this
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  S6: is actually as good for you as you might think
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  S6: it is or you think you need to do this,
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  S6: but it's not actually as helpful. I'm seeing some of
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  S6: these effects and I already had the conviction of the
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  S6: Holy Spirit as well. And so it's kind of a
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  S6: multi-pronged thing. It's not just a decision you make, but
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  S6: actually one that's done in community with people who love
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  S6: you enough to tell you the truth.
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  S3: Jason Thacker, our guest right now, you were the lead
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  S3: author on a great resource that your team over at
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  S3: the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission has put together for
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  S3: Christian ministry in the Age of Artificial Intelligence. I'm looking
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  S3: through this, and your team has put together a number
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  S3: of scenarios that can commonly pop up. If they haven't already,
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  S3: they may in the church setting. One of them deals
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  S3: with using AI. There's a let's say there's a long
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  S3: waiting list to, to get counseling or to receive some
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  S3: sort of pastoral services. How about the use of AI
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  S3: and kind of a chatbot that can help you work
• 12:37
  S3: through in a counseling type setting? Talk a little bit
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  S3: more about that one.
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  S6: Yeah, this is one that we see come up. Many
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  S6: pastors have been asking about this, counseling organizations and more.
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  S6: I'm deeply troubled by this trend for a number of reasons. One,
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  S6: it's not personal. These machines don't understand you. They don't
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  S6: know you. They're not a person. They're not a subject
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  S6: like you and I. And we're designed and created for
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  S6: that community. I think sometimes we're trying to make something
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  S6: very efficient that is inherently inefficient. I mean, relationships are messy.
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  S6: We all know that they take time. It's not like
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  S6: you can just unfollow some, you know, some difficult people
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  S6: in real life. You can maybe do that online. You
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  S6: can do that through social media, right? But relationships are
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  S6: time consuming. They're messy. They're, um, they're just difficult at times,
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  S6: but they're also life giving and beautiful and what we're
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  S6: created and designed for. So the trend to see maybe
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  S6: getting some kind of counseling or navigating some type of
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  S6: issue utilizing artificial intelligence, I think unnecessarily blurs the line
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  S6: between what it means to be human in an age
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  S6: of machines. These are machines. They're objects. They're not like
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  S6: you and I. We need one another, and we need
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  S6: somebody who can empathize with us to understand who we are,
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  S6: to understand the temptations that we face. And so I'm
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  S6: deeply troubled by some of that trend, but I understand
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  S6: the draw for it to say, well, it's better than nothing.
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  S6: But I also don't think it's actually very good for us.
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  S6: And it's deep. It's forming us again in some really,
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  S6: really ungodly ways and very dehumanizing ways. I think as well.
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  S7: You know, one of the things that's most dehumanizing, that's hilarious.
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  S5: To me is how ChatGPT or whatever platform you're on
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  S5: affirms every question you have. And I finally gave a
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  S5: prompt to it saying, quit affirming me and I'll be
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  S5: honest with you, there's a dopamine hit when you get
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  S5: affirm by anything, including AI. It's a bizarre effect on
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  S5: the mind, isn't it?
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  S6: It really is. I mean, we see this on social
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  S6: media every day. There are countless studies about likes and
• 14:32
  S6: dislikes and the emotional kind of appeal. And companies know
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  S6: this and they, they use this to put, put, put
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  S6: forth products and to advertise and to make money. We
• 14:43
  S6: see that, especially with AI, is that it it often
• 14:46
  S6: becomes just a kind of mirror. It's just reflecting us
• 14:49
  S6: back to ourselves and kind of in that sense of self-affirmation.
• 14:52
  S6: But real relationships are going to confront you. They're going
• 14:56
  S6: to love you enough to tell you the truth and
• 14:58
  S6: to push back and to say, I don't think you
• 15:00
  S6: got that right. And that's the thing with AI. It's
• 15:02
  S6: funny when you say, hey, you got that wrong. It's like, oh,
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  S6: I'm so sorry. I got that wrong. Ironically, it's not
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  S6: an I. It didn't get anything wrong in that sense.
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  S6: It's not a person like you and I, it's just
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  S6: a machine and it's just reflecting those things back. So
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  S6: it becomes kind of a, a loop in many ways,
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  S6: just putting back, giving us back what we've already given it.
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  S6: And I think that's very, it's not very helpful, especially
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  S6: in terms of pursuit of wisdom and virtue.
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  S5: Yeah. Go get a cup of coffee with a friend.
• 15:28
  S5: Go get a cup of coffee with a friend. Boy,
• 15:30
  S5: have we got a tool. This is maybe one of
• 15:32
  S5: the best little AI tools I've seen in how to
• 15:35
  S5: navigate this world. The work of our hands. Isn't this great, Ali?
• 15:38
  S3: It is. This is going to be a great tool
• 15:41
  S3: specifically for those who are in ministry settings in any capacity.
• 15:45
  S3: Maybe you're a pastor. Maybe you work on a church staff,
• 15:48
  S3: or you just want to learn more about this. We
• 15:50
  S3: have this for you. It's a, it's a, it's in
• 15:53
  S3: a PDF format. Just text the word Jason to (800) 555-7898.
• 15:59
  S3: Our guest today, Jason Thacker. Just text Jason to (800) 555-7898.
• 16:05
  S3: Then make sure you get this resource. Christian Ministry in
• 16:08
  S3: the age of AI.
• 16:10
  S1: You're listening to Carl and Cru on Moody Radio.
• 16:15
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  S5: we have a big meeting tomorrow. It's called a war room. Now,
• 16:33
  S5: you've probably never been invited into a war room, and
• 16:37
  S5: I don't know who came up with that name. It
• 16:39
  S5: sounds like an alexm. Tell you the truth.
• 16:41
  S3: Do you remember the movie that was really popular a
• 16:44
  S3: couple years ago? That's right.
• 16:46
  S5: That just dawned on me.
• 16:46
  S3: That's where a lot of people, their mind probably goes.
• 16:49
  S3: At least in Christian settings.
• 16:50
  S5: Well, I'll tell you, there's there's some truth in that
• 16:53
  S5: because we really do pray, Lord, give us direction on this.
• 16:56
  S5: And what we do in a war room is we
• 16:58
  S5: have a strategy session and we start forecasting weeks, sometimes
• 17:02
  S5: months out in advance of what are we going to
• 17:05
  S5: be talking about here? And we don't want to do
• 17:08
  S5: this in a vacuum. And we benefit so greatly from
• 17:11
  S5: having you weigh in on it. So here's our invitation
• 17:14
  S5: right now. We're going to spend a few minutes here
• 17:17
  S5: asking you a very important question that's going to shape
• 17:21
  S5: this program. If you've ever wondered, do I have a
• 17:24
  S5: say in what we're talking about around here? Oh boy.
• 17:28
  S5: Do you. And the time is now.
• 17:29
  S3: Yeah. We want to hear from you. When you think
• 17:31
  S3: about your listening, Moody radio could be Carling Cru or
• 17:34
  S3: any other show throughout the day. What topic have you
• 17:37
  S3: most benefited from hearing about on Moody Radio? You can
• 17:41
  S3: give us a call or a text on this. What
• 17:43
  S3: do you remember that you heard and going, okay, that
• 17:46
  S3: was particularly helpful. Think about the topic, think about maybe
• 17:49
  S3: it's a particular guest. Give us your feedback on this.
• 17:52
  S3: 800 555 7898 (800) 555-7898.
• 17:58
  S5: The reason we want to open up phones today on
• 18:00
  S5: this one is because some of you can't communicate the
• 18:04
  S5: emotion behind it and the story behind it, without calling
• 18:07
  S5: in and saying, hey, this is what it's done in
• 18:09
  S5: my life. So what is that topic you've most benefited
• 18:14
  S5: from hearing about on Moody Radio? Give us a call
• 18:18
  S5: or text (800) 555-7898.
• 18:23
  S1: He's a sports fanatic with a stat for anything you
• 18:26
  S1: can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's
• 18:31
  S1: curl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 18:33
  S5: Scotland crew, and we're inviting you into what we call
• 18:36
  S5: our war room. And the beauty of this war room
• 18:40
  S5: is it's a strategy session. We sit down with our
• 18:42
  S5: whole team. We bring in Shauna, our midday host, and
• 18:46
  S5: we bring in a team of folks and we just say, Lord,
• 18:49
  S5: what would you have us cover in the weeks and
• 18:51
  S5: months to come? It's a very important time. One of
• 18:54
  S5: the things that I noticed with my good friend Janet Parshall,
• 18:57
  S5: and I'm seeing it here, is spiritual warfare is commonly
• 19:00
  S5: on deck for her. You know what I mean?
• 19:02
  S3: Yes. That's one that she covers often. That tends to
• 19:05
  S3: be a high interest topic when we cover it as well.
• 19:08
  S5: Yeah. Let's go to the phone lines. Who do we have? Ali.
• 19:10
  S3: We've got Hillary calling in this morning from Florida. Hillary,
• 19:13
  S3: what is something what topic have you most benefited from
• 19:16
  S3: hearing about on Moody Radio?
• 19:19
  S8: Yes. So this is one of the topics is just
• 19:21
  S8: like how to be bold in generation, right? In times
• 19:24
  S8: of crisis and a time of transition, a time where
• 19:27
  S8: we've never seen before. Um, and it's just, yeah, standing
• 19:30
  S8: up for bold as being unapologetically, you know what? God's
• 19:34
  S8: called us to be the light of this world. So yeah,
• 19:36
  S8: I stand on that as a young person.
• 19:39
  S5: Sure. How how long have you been following Jesus, Hillary?
• 19:42
  S5: How many years?
• 19:46
  S8: I was saved when I was like 18, right after
• 19:48
  S8: high school.
• 19:49
  S5: Okay. That is awesome.
• 19:51
  S8: So right now I'm like, yes.
• 19:54
  S5: That's that's great. Um, I got to tell you, Hillary,
• 19:57
  S5: that is right on. And the reason that I think
• 20:00
  S5: it's you're probably tip of the iceberg is in a
• 20:03
  S5: post-Christian nation, it's a little different. It's a little different.
• 20:07
  S5: And I appreciate your heart on that one. How to
• 20:09
  S5: be bold in this generation. What a great topic, right?
• 20:12
  S3: Absolutely. I think we've got another caller, Dennis from Massachusetts.
• 20:16
  S3: Go ahead. What is that topic that you've most benefited
• 20:19
  S3: from hearing about on Moody Radio?
• 20:23
  S9: Hi. Can you hear me okay.
• 20:24
  S3: Yep. We've got you. Go ahead. Dennis.
• 20:27
  S9: All right. I'm trying to get rid of the Bluetooth thing, but. Well,
• 20:31
  S9: thank you for everything. One morning I tuned in a
• 20:33
  S9: while back, and Carl and Ellie were talking about. Uh, James,
• 20:37
  S9: you adulterous people. You know, what were you and Carl?
• 20:41
  S9: You kept emphasizing, you know, what are you in the
• 20:43
  S9: sheets with? Yeah. What are you partnering up with? Yeah. Uh,
• 20:47
  S9: and it changed everything. Uh, it helped me realize, uh,
• 20:50
  S9: through prayer that day that I was still partnering up
• 20:53
  S9: with some false idols. I had some things between me
• 20:56
  S9: and the Lord that I couldn't get to surrender, couldn't
• 20:59
  S9: get to those. And I had to get on my
• 21:01
  S9: knees that morning and ask God to take them away.
• 21:03
  S5: Yeah.
• 21:04
  S9: Uh, you know, little things, subtle things like, you know,
• 21:07
  S9: the love of my family. Putting that before God, the
• 21:10
  S9: love of my grandchildren, you know, uh, trying to count
• 21:14
  S9: on other people to provide what only the Lord was
• 21:16
  S9: going to provide for me. Uh, in terms of opening doors.
• 21:21
  S9: So I was still partnering with those things subtly. And
• 21:24
  S9: you brought that to my attention that morning. I don't
• 21:27
  S9: know if you remember that day or not, but you
• 21:28
  S9: spent a lot of time in James that was adulterous people.
• 21:32
  S5: Yeah, that was weird.
• 21:33
  S9: You kept saying.
• 21:34
  S5: Yeah, well, the reason I say that is I'm not
• 21:36
  S5: attempting to be crass. I'm attempting to be biblical. But
• 21:39
  S5: adulterous people means that we are sleeping around on God. Denis.
• 21:43
  S5: I mean, that's what it means.
• 21:45
  S2: That's a really important, I think. Actually, it's not crass
• 21:49
  S2: at all. This is exactly how it's meant to be
• 21:51
  S2: talked about because we, we kind of underestimate the effect
• 21:56
  S2: of even good things in our life sometimes when we
• 21:58
  S2: put them before God. Ah, it's just this. It's just
• 22:01
  S2: that it's not that big a deal. When we think
• 22:02
  S2: about it in the context of, no, I'm cheating on
• 22:05
  S2: God with these things. It changes the whole perspective and
• 22:09
  S2: allows you to look at them for how they really are.
• 22:11
  S5: Yeah. And it's a, it's a, it's a striking metaphor,
• 22:14
  S5: isn't it? You adulterous people, if you boil it down,
• 22:17
  S5: you go. Hold it. Who's in the sheets with me here?
• 22:20
  S5: And I know that that could sound crass, but it's
• 22:23
  S5: not crass, is it, Ali?
• 22:24
  S3: No. I mean, when you think about so much of Scripture,
• 22:27
  S3: how the that was the analogy that was often used
• 22:31
  S3: to talk about how God's people were unfaithful. And it
• 22:34
  S3: gets way more graphic than that if you.
• 22:36
  S5: Yeah, yeah. Some places we can't even go with that
• 22:39
  S5: little ear. earwigs.
• 22:40
  S3: Absolutely.
• 22:41
  S5: Yeah. Really good feedback here. And we're getting a lot
• 22:44
  S5: of text messages in. Here's what we're going to do.
• 22:46
  S5: We're going to collate all this feedback. And this is
• 22:49
  S5: really going to help us in War room. But I
• 22:50
  S5: love hearing the energy when you call in as well.
• 22:53
  S5: So here's the question. We're going into a war room
• 22:56
  S5: here soon where we strategize topics. And by the way,
• 23:01
  S5: let's put idolatry and sleeping around on God. I know
• 23:05
  S5: that sounds crazy for me to even say right there.
• 23:08
  S5: I remember the first time I used that analogy preaching
• 23:10
  S5: at a church or church in Alaska, and I remember
• 23:15
  S5: how the Spirit of God used that so powerfully, so
• 23:18
  S5: graphically as the text wants it to. And we're grateful
• 23:24
  S5: for that passion, Dennis, that you have for this. And
• 23:26
  S5: Hillary in Florida. Great, great feedback here.
• 23:30
  S1: Want to hear that? Again, just download the Curl and
• 23:33
  S1: Crew podcast wherever you like to stream.
• 23:37
  S5: When we look at the Middle East, It can be unnerving.
• 23:41
  S5: This is why we've committed this whole week to end times.
• 23:44
  S5: And boy, have we saved one of the best for
• 23:47
  S5: near the end of our week here. We're not there yet, guys,
• 23:50
  S5: but we've got them right now. Sam storms with us. Sam. Uh,
• 23:54
  S5: you have written a ton. I know you've got a
• 23:58
  S5: new book. By the way. How's your book coming along
• 23:59
  S5: on the Holy Spirit?
• 24:01
  S10: Well, it's supposed to be released later this year. I
• 24:03
  S10: finished it and did all the edits, and I'm really
• 24:06
  S10: excited about it. It's called 40 questions about the Holy Spirit.
• 24:09
  S2: Oh.
• 24:09
  S5: I can't wait. That's going to be thrilling. Okay. We
• 24:12
  S5: turn our eyes toward the Middle East. We see what's
• 24:14
  S5: going on in Iran, which is Persia, which is in
• 24:17
  S5: the Ezekiel. It's Islam, which is that region to the north.
• 24:22
  S5: They have been a superpower that actually has freaked out
• 24:25
  S5: their neighbors, even fellow Islamic states. What is going on
• 24:30
  S5: from your vantage point? And is there anything that we
• 24:33
  S5: see happening there that reflects any prophecy at all? I'm
• 24:37
  S5: not trying to cram something into place here though. Sam.
• 24:40
  S10: That is a very important question. It's a very pressing question.
• 24:42
  S10: I think the response of most Christians is just just
• 24:45
  S10: a knee jerk. Oh, absolutely. Yes. This is all a
• 24:47
  S10: fulfillment of biblical prophecy. It may well be. I'm not.
• 24:51
  S10: I don't have enough insight into the purposes of God
• 24:54
  S10: to make a definitive statement on that, but it's entirely
• 24:57
  S10: possible that this is a prelude to the second coming
• 25:00
  S10: of Jesus. But again, Jesus warned of wars and rumors
• 25:04
  S10: of wars. And we've seen this all through history. Yes, people,
• 25:07
  S10: nations on the brink of absolute annihilation. And they drew
• 25:11
  S10: the same conclusions and they were all wrong. Yeah. So
• 25:14
  S10: I've got a little check of caution in my heart
• 25:16
  S10: before I make a definitive statement. I, I think that
• 25:19
  S10: we need to be careful because unfortunately, as you know,
• 25:22
  S10: that kind of end times hysteria can really get people
• 25:27
  S10: off base and get them fixated on things that keep
• 25:30
  S10: them from the main and the plain of what God
• 25:32
  S10: calls us to do.
• 25:33
  S5: Amen. I love that. That's what I love about you.
• 25:35
  S5: So we can keep an eye on what's going on there,
• 25:37
  S5: but not get fixated on it. I'm thinking 70s heavy, late,
• 25:41
  S5: great planet earth. Hal Lindsey. Yeah. And but here's what
• 25:45
  S5: is interesting. We have statehood for Israel prior to statehood.
• 25:50
  S5: I don't know how they sorted through the prophecies. They
• 25:53
  S5: didn't even know that was coming here until this last generation.
• 25:57
  S5: So you got State of Israel, and then you got
• 25:59
  S5: this spiked rise of anti-Semitism. And tell you the thing
• 26:02
  S5: that freaks me out here, not in a scary way,
• 26:04
  S5: but just a wow, shocking way. First time in the
• 26:08
  S5: history of America, we've got 1% more sympathy toward Palestine
• 26:14
  S5: than Israel. Does that shock you at all, Sam?
• 26:17
  S10: It does. It does. And you're right. The anti-Semitic impulse
• 26:23
  S10: is almost inexplicable. I I've asked many people why? What,
• 26:28
  S10: what is fueling this? What's going on? And nobody has
• 26:32
  S10: an answer. And I the only answer that I can
• 26:34
  S10: come up with is that it's Satan who is stirring
• 26:36
  S10: up this hatred for these people as a way of
• 26:40
  S10: dividing and provoking war. By the way, there's one verse
• 26:44
  S10: of scripture I want to make sure I get in
• 26:45
  S10: on this episode before we go off. Yeah, because people say,
• 26:49
  S10: all right, let's just assume for the sake of argument
• 26:52
  S10: that we may well be in the end times, we
• 26:53
  S10: may well be near the coming of Jesus. What should
• 26:56
  S10: we do? Listen to what Peter says in first Peter four,
• 27:00
  S10: verse seven. The end of all things is at hand.
• 27:03
  S10: Right there. There he sees it. The end of all
• 27:05
  S10: things is at hand. Therefore run to the hills, quit
• 27:08
  S10: your job, put on a white robe, you know.
• 27:12
  S5: Get a bunker in North Dakota.
• 27:13
  S10: Get a bunker separate, but, you know, load up on
• 27:16
  S10: canned goods. Go down into your basement. Now listen to
• 27:20
  S10: what he says. The end of all things is at hand. Therefore,
• 27:23
  S10: be self-controlled and sober minded for the sake of your prayers.
• 27:27
  S10: And above all, keep loving one another earnestly. Since love
• 27:30
  S10: covers a multitude of sins, show hospitality to one another
• 27:33
  S10: as stewards of God's varied grace. I mean, how contrary
• 27:38
  S10: is that to the mindset of so many today? They
• 27:40
  S10: freak out when they think about the coming of Jesus
• 27:43
  S10: and Peter saying, look, I was expecting him in my lifetime.
• 27:46
  S10: It didn't happen, but we are expecting him in our lifetimes.
• 27:49
  S10: It may happen. What are we to do?
• 27:51
  S5: I got to tell you, that is the verse for
• 27:53
  S5: our week right there. That's the verse you can postulate
• 27:56
  S5: and cogitate on this stuff all day long, but if
• 27:58
  S5: you don't come back, what's that reference again, Sam.
• 28:01
  S10: First Peter, chapter four, verses seven through nine.
• 28:06
  S5: Wow. It says it all right there, doesn't it?
• 28:09
  S10: It does, it does. And you know, for from coming
• 28:12
  S10: from a man who constantly stuck his foot in his mouth. Uh,
• 28:16
  S10: Peter here writing under the inspiration of the spirit is
• 28:19
  S10: setting people straight. I just wish people would maintain their sanity,
• 28:23
  S10: their spiritual sanity. Self-Control, he says, sober minded. That's so
• 28:28
  S10: contrary to what we see in so many sectors of
• 28:30
  S10: the Christian world.
• 28:31
  S5: Yeah, I guess I could say, all right, show's over.
• 28:33
  S5: We're going to shut her down for the day and
• 28:35
  S5: put this on loop. Repeat. But let's go after a
• 28:37
  S5: little bit more because we do see things. And I
• 28:39
  S5: think I've heard it said many times that we live
• 28:44
  S5: with newspaper or news in one hand and the Word
• 28:47
  S5: of God in the other, and this is a beautiful
• 28:51
  S5: opportunity for us to look and see what's the benefit
• 28:54
  S5: of processing what's happening in the Middle East without ignoring
• 28:58
  S5: it altogether?
• 28:59
  S10: Yeah, I think the benefit is that we are alert.
• 29:02
  S10: I mean, all through the Gospels, and Jesus himself told
• 29:05
  S10: us to be alert, for we know not when the
• 29:07
  S10: time is coming. So I think it's just an attitude
• 29:10
  S10: of alertness, of readiness, of looking at our lives and saying,
• 29:14
  S10: all right, if the Lord were to come today or
• 29:17
  S10: next week, in what condition would he find me in
• 29:20
  S10: my life and my use of money and how I'm
• 29:22
  S10: relating to my spouse and my kids and my friends.
• 29:26
  S10: So I think it's the readiness, the alertness, without the
• 29:29
  S10: hysteria of trying to set a date like, oh, it's
• 29:32
  S10: got to happen, you know, within seven years or three
• 29:35
  S10: years or whatever, or three months, that just fuels hysteria
• 29:39
  S10: and it turns us into very irresponsible people. Instead say, look,
• 29:44
  S10: I may well be in that generation when I will
• 29:47
  S10: see the Lord return in the heavens, and I won't
• 29:49
  S10: even have to undergo physical death, which wouldn't that be wonderful?
• 29:52
  S10: We caught up in the rapture, but the mindset for
• 29:55
  S10: that is all right. Be holy. Be righteous. I love
• 29:59
  S10: the way Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer, once put it,
• 30:02
  S10: a very famous saying. He said, if I knew for
• 30:04
  S10: certain that Jesus was coming back next week, I'd plant
• 30:07
  S10: a tree today. This point is the certainty. The expectation
• 30:12
  S10: of the return of Christ does not alleviate or somehow
• 30:16
  S10: undermine my responsibility to make life good in the present.
• 30:20
  S5: Yeah, I love that. That's a powerhouse quote. Okay, coming
• 30:23
  S5: up here, I'm going to get into the weeds. We're
• 30:25
  S5: going to talk about the difference between a dispensational theology,
• 30:29
  S5: covenant theology, how great people who are all children of God,
• 30:34
  S5: can have a different viewpoint. And one of the things
• 30:36
  S5: we love to do here with Carl and crew is
• 30:38
  S5: share viewpoints. Coming up more with Sam Storms.
• 30:41
  S1: Walking closer to Jesus every day. You're listening to Carl
• 30:45
  S1: and crew.
• 30:47
  S5: We're talking in times this week. And, uh, Sam storms
• 30:51
  S5: with me right now and Wayne Grudem on yesterday. Sam.
• 30:54
  S10: Oh, good. My dear friend Wayne Grudem.
• 30:56
  S5: I love him. He's been a great friend of mine
• 30:59
  S5: for years. And what a he's battling so well through Parkinson's.
• 31:03
  S5: He's just a warrior. Um, here's what I want to
• 31:05
  S5: tackle and I want to preface it by this. There's
• 31:08
  S5: a lot of people. It strikes me that people that
• 31:11
  S5: are younger in faith are younger in positions, are way
• 31:14
  S5: more contentious than people that are seasoned in these things.
• 31:18
  S5: It seems like the older guys that have walked the
• 31:20
  S5: path with Jesus don't get hung up on theological positions
• 31:24
  S5: where it divides fellowship. But what is the difference between
• 31:28
  S5: dispensational theology and covenant Theology. And where can we meet
• 31:34
  S5: on these things?
• 31:35
  S10: Well, as you know, I got my seminary education at Dallas,
• 31:39
  S10: and I loved Dallas. So in spite of what I'm
• 31:41
  S10: about to say, I wouldn't have done it any other way.
• 31:43
  S10: I had great professors, but my professors were the who's
• 31:46
  S10: who of dispensationalism. John Walvoord Dwight Pentecost and I had
• 31:51
  S10: several courses from Charles Ryrie and Charles Ryrie always taught
• 31:55
  S10: us and wrote it in his book. He's now with
• 31:57
  S10: the Lord, by the way, that the key element of
• 32:00
  S10: dispensationalism is a distinction between Israel and the church, that
• 32:04
  S10: God has two purposes. Uh, one for his earthly people Israel,
• 32:08
  S10: one for his heavenly people, the church, and never the
• 32:11
  S10: twain shall meet. I don't see that in Scripture. I
• 32:15
  S10: see in Scripture that there's one people of God that
• 32:17
  S10: consists of believing ethnic Jews and believing ethnic Gentiles. So
• 32:23
  S10: for example, in Romans 11, we read about this, this
• 32:26
  S10: metaphor of the the olive tree, and he talks about
• 32:30
  S10: natural branches being broken off in unnatural branches being grafted in.
• 32:34
  S10: And his point is, there's only one olive tree. The
• 32:36
  S10: olive tree represents the people of God of all ages,
• 32:40
  S10: in which are found believing Jews like the apostle Paul himself,
• 32:44
  S10: who was writing it, in which our believing Gentiles like
• 32:47
  S10: you and me. And the point is, God didn't uproot
• 32:50
  S10: the tree. He didn't pull it out of the ground,
• 32:52
  S10: cast it aside, and plant a new tree called the church.
• 32:55
  S10: The church is simply the people of God, of every
• 32:58
  S10: ethnicity that have been grafted into Israel, and now share
• 33:01
  S10: in the promises that were made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
• 33:05
  S10: So that is the fundamental difference is, is there a
• 33:09
  S10: rigid distinction between Israel and the church that called for
• 33:12
  S10: two different covenants and two different inheritances or promises? Or
• 33:16
  S10: is there one people of God comprised of multiple ethnicities
• 33:21
  S10: who center around Jesus, not their ethnicity? In other words,
• 33:24
  S10: I think the the key in the New Testament is
• 33:26
  S10: blood and DNA doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that
• 33:30
  S10: matters is faith in Christ. He's the true seed of
• 33:34
  S10: Abraham for whom the promises were intended. So if you're
• 33:37
  S10: in Christ by faith, it doesn't matter what the color
• 33:39
  S10: of your skin, doesn't matter your ethnic background. You are
• 33:43
  S10: a child of Abraham and an heir according to promise.
• 33:46
  S5: Okay, so there's a few implications here. One is that
• 33:49
  S5: you see now the passages in Matthew 2425 and many
• 33:54
  S5: other passages, not as rapture passages, but as judgement passages,
• 33:59
  S5: meaning that Christ's followers could and will go. Your position
• 34:03
  S5: would be going through the tribulation. Some have pre-trib, rapture,
• 34:06
  S5: Mid-trib or post-trib. Here's what I want to spike. We
• 34:11
  S5: don't break fellowship just because we have different viewpoints on eschatology. Right, Sam?
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  S10: Well, we certainly shouldn't. But that's the interesting thing. When
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  S10: I came out, I graduated from Dallas in about two
• 34:22
  S10: years into my pastoral ministry there in Dallas. I came
• 34:26
  S10: after studying First Thessalonians. I came out as Post-trib. And
• 34:29
  S10: you would have thought that I denied the resurrection of Jesus.
• 34:32
  S10: And I find it fascinating and deeply disturbing. And I
• 34:37
  S10: know this sounds like an over-the-top exaggeration. I promise you
• 34:40
  S10: it isn't. For some Christians, the Pre-tribulation rapture is a
• 34:45
  S10: foundational doctrine that is just as important as the deity
• 34:48
  S10: of Christ, and the idea that we would have to
• 34:51
  S10: go through the judgments that we read about in the
• 34:53
  S10: Bible is just so terrifying to them that they hold
• 34:57
  S10: to a view that, oh, God's going to get me
• 34:58
  S10: out of here first. And I just want to say
• 35:00
  S10: to people, stop for just a moment and think how
• 35:04
  S10: offensive that is to the Christians imprisoned in North Korea
• 35:08
  S10: right now, being the Christians in Iran who are being
• 35:11
  S10: beaten and houses being burned to the ground, and people
• 35:14
  S10: in certain sectors of India and Indonesia and certain areas
• 35:18
  S10: of Africa and Nigeria, where every week we read about
• 35:21
  S10: another church being burned to the ground and people being slaughtered.
• 35:26
  S10: They have been undergoing Tribulation far worse than anything we
• 35:30
  S10: read about in the Bible. And it's for us here
• 35:33
  S10: in the West. We live in such a secure place.
• 35:35
  S10: We say, well, I'm glad I don't have to go
• 35:37
  S10: through that. It's somewhat offensive, at least in my opinion.
• 35:41
  S10: When we in the West, who live such comfortable and
• 35:43
  S10: peaceful lives, live in constant fear of having to go
• 35:47
  S10: through a time of persecution when our brothers and sisters
• 35:49
  S10: down through the centuries in other parts of the world,
• 35:52
  S10: have suffered far worse. And I just can't imagine their
• 35:56
  S10: mindset if they were to hear us talk about, well,
• 35:59
  S10: I just hope God gets me out of this mess
• 36:01
  S10: here before it gets really bad. They have been suffering
• 36:04
  S10: really bad, even unimaginable persecution and slaughter for centuries. So
• 36:10
  S10: but we were talking a little bit about why there
• 36:13
  S10: is this emphasis on this idea of pre-trib rapture. And
• 36:16
  S10: I think basically because and I know this is going
• 36:19
  S10: to sound offensive to some, we've become soft in America.
• 36:22
  S10: Christianity is soft. The idea that we would be challenged
• 36:26
  S10: and persecuted and slandered and even lose our possessions. It
• 36:30
  S10: terrifies us. And I think of Hebrews ten where it
• 36:33
  S10: says that they reacted joyfully at the confiscation of their
• 36:36
  S10: property because they knew they had a better treasure. Yeah.
• 36:39
  S10: So I just hope people will kind of recalibrate their
• 36:41
  S10: mindset and know that we have been called to suffer
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  S10: together with Christ, whether it's in a time of tribulation
• 36:48
  S10: or just in the daily experience of being a believer.
• 36:51
  S10: Instead of thinking this, I just need an escape doctrine.
• 36:55
  S10: I need a doctrine that's going to get me out
• 36:56
  S10: of here. That's just not the mindset of the scriptures.
• 37:00
  S5: It seems to me to Sam, that when we look
• 37:02
  S5: at the scriptures, even whatever position you have on tribulation,
• 37:06
  S5: wherever you land on this, that there is not. If
• 37:10
  S5: you're a biblical, humble child of God, you don't look
• 37:13
  S5: at Israel with disdain. We're seeing something on the woke
• 37:16
  S5: left and the woke right now. That is bizarre. Sam,
• 37:21
  S5: there is a almost a anti-Semitic loathing of this nation.
• 37:27
  S5: And no matter what your theological position, you still champion
• 37:31
  S5: the good of these people.
• 37:33
  S10: Absolutely. And again, you know, I think all of us
• 37:35
  S10: would agree we don't have to endorse everything Israel does.
• 37:38
  S10: I don't endorse everything the United States does.
• 37:41
  S5: Right?
• 37:41
  S10: But no government, no nation is perfect in its policies
• 37:46
  S10: and the way it carries them out. But I do
• 37:48
  S10: think there's an underlying demonic impulse in this anti-Semitic attitude
• 37:54
  S10: that's spreading everywhere. It just absolutely baffles me. And like
• 37:57
  S10: you said, even on the right, not just the left,
• 38:00
  S10: but on the right, people who seem to hold a
• 38:03
  S10: more biblical worldview oftentimes are yielding to that impulse as well.
• 38:07
  S10: And it's just it's just mind blowing to me. I
• 38:10
  S10: do not understand it.
• 38:12
  S5: Yeah. You know, interesting. Sam. We, we do see some
• 38:16
  S5: things that we've alluded to, but we can't be fixated
• 38:19
  S5: on those things. Have you studied Gog and Magog and
• 38:24
  S5: where do you put that battle? It's obviously prior to
• 38:28
  S5: the Armageddon and the great battle, but where do you
• 38:31
  S5: put that? And do you see anything happening or stirrings
• 38:35
  S5: in Iran that gives us a hint of what may come?
• 38:39
  S10: Well, I think the Gog and Magog is imagery for
• 38:42
  S10: the nations of the world coming against the people of God.
• 38:45
  S10: So I do think there will be a final battle.
• 38:48
  S10: I mean, we call it Armageddon. We call it the
• 38:51
  S10: last battle. Whatever terminology you want to use in which
• 38:54
  S10: the nations of the world will form some sort of
• 38:57
  S10: coalition to come against the people of God, talks about
• 39:01
  S10: in revelation 20 that Satan is, uh, is motivated to
• 39:05
  S10: orchestrate this incredible battle, which of course ends with the
• 39:09
  S10: Lord Jesus Christ defeating them all. If you want to
• 39:12
  S10: be encouraged, folks, go read revelation 19, which talks about
• 39:16
  S10: the coming of Jesus and how he will deal with
• 39:19
  S10: all those who stand in opposition to him. So I
• 39:22
  S10: don't try to make an identification of Gog and Magog
• 39:26
  S10: with any contemporary nations. I think that's a mistake. But
• 39:30
  S10: I do think that they represent all nations that are
• 39:33
  S10: in opposition to God, the same way that the Bible
• 39:36
  S10: uses the word Babylon in revelation. That's just the earthly
• 39:40
  S10: nations that stand in opposition to Jesus and seek to
• 39:43
  S10: crush his kingdom purposes.
• 39:45
  S5: Sam Storms is my guest right now. Sam, as you see,
• 39:50
  S5: a lot of the discussion and a lot of the
• 39:53
  S5: rancor and growing hatred for Israel and Jewish people. How
• 39:59
  S5: should Christ's followers respond to that specifically?
• 40:03
  S10: Well, the first thing they need to do is they
• 40:05
  S10: need to think about what they deserve, what we all deserve,
• 40:08
  S10: apart from God's grace. I am a hell deserving sinner.
• 40:12
  S10: You are. All Christians are. And yet that's not what
• 40:15
  S10: we get. We get grace, forgiveness, freedom, and eternity in
• 40:18
  S10: God's presence. And if that isn't enough to cause you
• 40:23
  S10: to temper your anger or deal with the bitterness you
• 40:26
  S10: have in your heart toward whether it's Israel or Iran.
• 40:30
  S10: I mean, think of I've heard that there are more
• 40:32
  S10: conversions happening in Iran and China than perhaps anywhere else
• 40:35
  S10: on the face of the earth. Correct. So we just
• 40:38
  S10: need to think more deeply about the reality of the
• 40:40
  S10: gospel and what God has done for us in Jesus.
• 40:43
  S10: And if that doesn't stir your heart to love those
• 40:47
  S10: who are now being hated, I don't know what will.
• 40:50
  S10: So I think sometimes we just forget the reality of
• 40:53
  S10: how amazing grace really is and that we deserve only
• 40:58
  S10: death and we're given eternal life. And if that doesn't
• 41:01
  S10: move your heart to reach out in love and support
• 41:04
  S10: and encouragement to people who are being slaughtered and and persecuted,
• 41:08
  S10: I don't know what will.
• 41:09
  S5: Yeah, yeah. And I battle with this. I look at news,
• 41:12
  S5: I can I can tilt toward political mindset more than
• 41:16
  S5: spiritual in a heartbeat. Sam. I'll confess that that's a
• 41:19
  S5: real temptation that Satan puts before us every day. There's
• 41:24
  S5: a call in our life to be alert, to be ready.
• 41:28
  S5: And what causes me real pause. And I've noticed an
• 41:30
  S5: amazing repeating of Jesus's words from the sermon on the Mount.
• 41:35
  S5: Many will say, Lord, Lord, he's going to say, depart
• 41:37
  S5: from me. I never knew you. That Lord, Lord, and
• 41:40
  S5: I never knew you is the same words he uses
• 41:43
  S5: with the ten bridesmaids. Five were ready, five were not.
• 41:47
  S5: That's sobering, isn't it, Sam?
• 41:50
  S10: It's more than sobering. It's terrifying. Yeah. That's why we
• 41:53
  S10: need to examine our hearts and say, what is my motivation?
• 41:56
  S10: Why am I following Jesus? And for what purpose am
• 41:59
  S10: I invoking his name? Because here are these individuals who
• 42:03
  S10: likely through the power of Satan, are performing miracles and
• 42:07
  S10: drawing people away from the Lord. And he's very clear
• 42:11
  S10: on that. Uh, you know, prophesying, healing the sick, driving
• 42:14
  S10: out demons. That's wonderful. We ought to be doing that
• 42:17
  S10: as Christians. But that in itself does not prove that
• 42:20
  S10: you're a believer. What it matters is whether you're following
• 42:23
  S10: Jesus as Lord and Savior and submitting your life to
• 42:25
  S10: him in faith.
• 42:26
  S5: Yeah, I saw a clip from R.C. Sproul who has
• 42:28
  S5: gone on to his reward, and he just hammers this.
• 42:31
  S5: He says, listen, there are many who have profession of
• 42:34
  S5: faith without possession of Christ. That's that's the bottom line,
• 42:39
  S5: isn't it, Sam?
• 42:41
  S10: Oh it is. Yeah. And, and again, here's the problem
• 42:45
  S10: is that we seem to take it upon ourselves to
• 42:48
  S10: be the ones who determine whether someone's going to heaven
• 42:50
  S10: or hell. And I've run into a lot of people,
• 42:53
  S10: especially in the present day, who want to pronounce eternal
• 42:56
  S10: judgment on individuals because they differ with them on things
• 42:59
  S10: like eschatology, like the things we're talking about or other
• 43:02
  S10: minor secondary doctrines. But I've always said as long as
• 43:06
  S10: a person affirms the foundational truths of the the virgin birth,
• 43:10
  S10: sinless life, substitutionary death, salvation by grace alone, through faith
• 43:14
  S10: alone in Christ alone. Those are the issues that we
• 43:17
  S10: are called on in Scripture to determine if a person
• 43:20
  S10: is truly a believer. you hold a different millennial view
• 43:23
  S10: than me or a different view on rapture or timing
• 43:25
  S10: of it. And the fact that Christians would divide and
• 43:29
  S10: make agreement on that particular issue, a condition for church membership.
• 43:33
  S10: You know, when I was still full time pastoring, I
• 43:35
  S10: made it clear to people all the time, all that
• 43:38
  S10: we ask that you do is believe in the second
• 43:40
  S10: coming of Jesus. Do you believe that he will appear physically, personally,
• 43:44
  S10: visibly to consummate his kingdom? If you do, you're welcome here.
• 43:49
  S10: Whatever view you hold on all the other issues, whether
• 43:52
  S10: it's Israel or the rapture or the millennium, that's of
• 43:55
  S10: secondary importance. We'll talk about them, we'll dialogue about them,
• 43:58
  S10: but we don't want to make those grounds for fellowship
• 44:01
  S10: or the termination of fellowship.
• 44:02
  S5: Boom. Nailed it. Sam. Storms, everybody. Uh, there is a
• 44:07
  S5: load of content here, and you've got to go get it.
• 44:11
  S5: Text the word storm to 800 555, 78, 98. One
• 44:16
  S5: word storm to 800 555 7898.