Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / How to Know When it's Time to Make a Career Leap + How the Universe Can Only Help You If You Help Yourself with Elise Loehnen

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How to Know When it's Time to Make a Career Leap + How the Universe Can Only Help You If You Help Yourself with Elise Loehnen · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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Speaker 1: The following podcast is a dear media production. Hey Sodel,
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Speaker 1: Carrie Lee here.
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Speaker 2: So can we all agree that mental health is okay
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Speaker 2: to discuss and doesn't have to be so taboo. Life
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Speaker 2: throws curveballs at us in the daily and the least
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Speaker 2: we can do is cater to the relationship that we
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Speaker 2: have with ourselves. So catch a new episode of my
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Speaker 2: podcast because life Every Wednesday? Do you hear me and
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Speaker 2: a mental health professional go there as we dive deep,
0:23
Speaker 2: be vulnerable, probably cry, and definitely laugh to.
0:25
Speaker 1: Discuss issues we all battle that.
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Speaker 2: Become part of our mental health journey.
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Speaker 3: Look, I get it.
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Speaker 2: Life is hard, but talking about it together can make
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Speaker 2: it a little bit easier. Tune in every Wednesday wherever
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Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.
0:45
Speaker 4: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:50
Speaker 4: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:53
Speaker 4: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:58
Speaker 4: This is pretty smart. Our next guest is pretty innovative.
1:05
Speaker 4: Elise Lunan helped turn Goop, Gwyneth Paltrow's wellness newsletter into
1:09
Speaker 4: a multimillion dollar company.
1:14
Speaker 3: Before Goop, she was.
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Speaker 4: At Conde Nas Traveler and the deputy editor of Lucky Magazine.
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Speaker 4: She's ghost written twelve books, five New York Times bestsellers,
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Speaker 4: including one for Ellen DeGeneres and Lauren Conrad. She's been
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Speaker 4: the conduit to help others find success for years, and
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Speaker 4: now she is it. She's writing her own book, she's
1:34
Speaker 4: launched her own podcast, Pulling the Thread, and all the
1:37
Speaker 4: while she's a wife, mother, and citizen of the world.
1:41
Speaker 4: She's obsessed with words, culture, systems, how we fit into them,
1:46
Speaker 4: and how we can transcend them. Elise is an intellectual
1:50
Speaker 4: giant and she's funny. The combination is winning. We cover
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Speaker 4: so much ground in this one. She's really candid about
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Speaker 4: her path, her surprising proudest moment an equally surprising regret.
2:02
Speaker 4: We talk about how to make big decisions, when to
2:04
Speaker 4: leave a job. You know what, I could go on
2:07
Speaker 4: and on, Let's just jump in. You said my parents
2:14
Speaker 4: were very obsessed with this idea that you can't sit around.
2:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 4: When I read that, I think it hit me because
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Speaker 4: my parents are obsessed.
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Speaker 3: With that same idea. Yeah.
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Speaker 4: It's like the Shakespeare quote idle hands are the Devil's
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Speaker 4: play things.
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Speaker 3: It's true in some ways, maybe untrue in others.
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Speaker 4: I'm wondering how it showed up in your life because
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Speaker 4: you are very ambitious.
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Speaker 3: Was it a propeller? Do you resent it at all?
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Speaker 4: Yeah?
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Speaker 1: And it's interesting. It's interesting because you said the word ambitious,
2:41
Speaker 1: which I think is true, and it's not because my
2:47
Speaker 1: compulsion to work is deeper than that ooh, Like it's
2:50
Speaker 1: not necessarily directed into any sort of vision of myself.
2:55
Speaker 1: Like I'm a little bit like an energizer bunny, if
2:57
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Where one of my mentors, this woman,
3:01
Speaker 1: Jennifer Rudolf waals, She's always like, try easier, honey, Like,
3:04
Speaker 1: try it easier. And I think about that a lot
3:08
Speaker 1: because I am such a back into it if it's
3:13
Speaker 1: not hard, and if it's not, if I'm not trying
3:17
Speaker 1: all the time and working hard all the time, then yeah,
3:20
Speaker 1: I'm being idle, I'm being slothful. I'm not maximizing my
3:26
Speaker 1: time with productivity. And so it's always been more that
3:30
Speaker 1: this need, this like deep hunger in myself to feel
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Speaker 1: validated through effort, rather than feeling like I have a
3:38
Speaker 1: really clear idea of what I'm supposed to be doing
3:41
Speaker 1: or where I'm supposed to be going. So I have
3:44
Speaker 1: gotten quite far in my life in a way that
3:48
Speaker 1: probably looks like it makes sense, But I have no
3:53
Speaker 1: grand plan. It's more that I and to be fair,
3:59
Speaker 1: I really struggle with the idea of effort and the
4:03
Speaker 1: lack of rest, particularly for women, and the ways which
4:07
Speaker 1: we're driven by. If you have children, if you don't
4:10
Speaker 1: like there is we are in a know when situation
4:14
Speaker 1: across the board that actually spend a lot of time
4:18
Speaker 1: going into in my book because I see it in
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Speaker 1: my friends, like the exhaustion and the despair that drives
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Speaker 1: us and the lack of energy that we have for
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Speaker 1: things that matter.
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Speaker 4: I don't want to cut you off, no, I just
4:33
Speaker 4: listened to a Glennon Doyle podcast in which she said
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Speaker 4: something that blew my mind, and she said, the revolution
4:39
Speaker 4: is a well rested woman.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that, and I really women are.
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Speaker 1: Exhaust exhausted, exhausted, and we don't know how to give
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Speaker 1: ourselves permission in some ways to get off of that
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Speaker 1: hamster wheel, you know. So I feel like my parents
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Speaker 1: were well intentioned in that, but they exploited some part
5:00
Speaker 1: of me that felt like that, or maybe they plan
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Speaker 1: to the seed I don't know. Exploited is not a
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Speaker 1: very nice word, but that has been sort of a
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Speaker 1: flog for me, like a whip that I'm really trying
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Speaker 1: to break. But it's hard because it feels this feels
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Speaker 1: like collective work as much as individual work. Yeah, and
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Speaker 1: it is that it is well rested because the try easier.
5:26
Speaker 1: I will also say that my best work comes not
5:31
Speaker 1: from spending eight hours in a conference room, but in
5:35
Speaker 1: moments of inside clarity or like when I feel like
5:39
Speaker 1: I'm channeling. There are just moments where you're like, oh,
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Speaker 1: like the puzzle board is clear, or that's the word
5:46
Speaker 1: or that's the line.
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Speaker 4: But that only happens when you don't have a headache,
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Speaker 4: and you know it's really interesting. So you are obsessed
5:54
Speaker 4: with magazines growing up w interview, Yes, and you said
5:59
Speaker 4: you put tear sheets all over your wall, which makes
6:02
Speaker 4: me left because I can't even imagine what a little
6:04
Speaker 4: Elise looks like.
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Speaker 1: Oh, I look like a little boy. My mom took
6:09
Speaker 1: me to the same barber as my brother, which is
6:12
Speaker 1: so I had this short hair.
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Speaker 3: It's very cute, but it was ahead of its time.
6:17
Speaker 1: I was ahead of its time. So yeah, I was
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Speaker 1: really obsessed with that world.
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Speaker 4: I wrote.
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Speaker 1: I wrote letters to Pratt and f I DM and
6:26
Speaker 1: all of the fashion schools when I was a kid,
6:29
Speaker 1: you know, it was probably like eight or nine, and
6:30
Speaker 1: I sent them letters of intent and interest and they
6:33
Speaker 1: sent me catalogs for application, which is funny to think about,
6:37
Speaker 1: but you know, there was no Internet, and you know,
6:41
Speaker 1: I really wanted to have It's funny, I haven't thought
6:43
Speaker 1: about this in a while. I wanted to have my
6:44
Speaker 1: own clothing line named LSA. I would make my own
6:47
Speaker 1: jewelry out of pine cones. And magazines to me were
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Speaker 1: a version of Wizard of Oz. Fancy people, beautiful parties,
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Speaker 1: incredible home, a world that I didn't understand and couldn't
7:03
Speaker 1: access in Montana, and it just felt seemed so next level.
7:10
Speaker 1: I mean, you think about it, it's like it was
7:12
Speaker 1: such pure fantasy. And so yeah, there were certain meme
7:17
Speaker 1: and Marcus ad campaigns which readers of a certain age
7:20
Speaker 1: will will recognize, where it was like models stepping out
7:23
Speaker 1: of flowers. It's like this cool collage, like those were
7:27
Speaker 1: all over my walls. And it's funny because when I
7:31
Speaker 1: got my first job at a magazines that Kanye n
7:34
Speaker 1: asked after I graduated from school, you go, and it's
7:38
Speaker 1: just always the truth where you're like, oh, you know,
7:42
Speaker 1: this is it. It's so it's a fabrication, so much
7:45
Speaker 1: of it.
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Speaker 4: It's really interesting when you don't grow up in LA
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Speaker 4: or New York City. Yeah, because I grew up in
7:53
Speaker 4: the suburbs of Chicago, and it just all feels so sparkly.
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's so sparkle.
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Speaker 3: We just want to touch it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's filtered, you know. Now. It's crazy because we
8:03
Speaker 1: have those same mechanisms for our own Instagrams and our
8:06
Speaker 1: own lives in a way that creates a lot of
8:09
Speaker 1: distortions for people where you don't know what's real.
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Speaker 4: In hindsight, what were you looking at? Because I think
8:16
Speaker 4: when you grow up in the Midwest, some people have
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Speaker 4: those sparkly eyes and some people aren't interested.
8:21
Speaker 3: What were you actually interested in?
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Speaker 1: You know? I think that I was this strange, strange,
8:30
Speaker 1: precocious child. We lived outside of town. I grew up
8:34
Speaker 1: with books, primarily my older brother horses like an incredibly
8:38
Speaker 1: idyllic experience in some ways, but really as an outsider,
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Speaker 1: and I really wanted to understand culture or society, what
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Speaker 1: it means to belong, like, what it would be like
8:49
Speaker 1: to have your name in print. I think I was
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Speaker 1: really really obsessed and fascinated by that idea, that somehow
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Speaker 1: that was a validation that you exist and that you
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Speaker 1: matter and are part of something, and that there was
9:03
Speaker 1: something about magazines in that world as a rubber stamp
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Speaker 1: of like you can sit with us, you know, because
9:12
Speaker 1: I wasn't bullied. It was just more of I could
9:15
Speaker 1: not be farther away from this world.
9:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So you stepped into the world pretty quickly after
9:24
Speaker 4: you graduated from college, got a job at Lucky, and
9:28
Speaker 4: you said when Lucky launched, it was mocked throughout the industry.
9:30
Speaker 4: You know, how could this possibly be successful? And then
9:33
Speaker 4: it became a really important magazine for a lot of women,
9:36
Speaker 4: a lot of really smart women.
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Speaker 3: For me, that was important.
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Speaker 4: You can be intelligent and still be interested in shopping,
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Speaker 4: and we can write about things that are supposedly light
9:45
Speaker 4: but still relevant.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
9:47
Speaker 4: When I read that, I thought to myself, you know,
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Speaker 4: men can be brilliant and care about video games and sports, yep,
9:55
Speaker 4: but women. It's hard for us to think about women
9:57
Speaker 4: as brilliant and also caring about things like shopping or nails.
10:02
Speaker 3: They're considered frivolous.
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Speaker 1: Exactly there's such a discounting in a way that's deeply
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Speaker 1: messed up and misogynistic and certainly a symptom of the
10:13
Speaker 1: patriarchy that we live in that we don't really see,
10:15
Speaker 1: you know. It's like it's such an innate, subconscious discounting
10:19
Speaker 1: or you see a woman. You know, we know all
10:22
Speaker 1: of this, like you can't be smart and beautiful like
10:25
Speaker 1: this need to sort of disallow each other and ourselves
10:30
Speaker 1: from defying stereotypical expectations in a way that we do
10:35
Speaker 1: certainly do not. We don't care what men do. I
10:39
Speaker 1: mean the stuff that my husband like, the movies he watches,
10:43
Speaker 1: the video games he plays, Like nobody nobody holds that
10:48
Speaker 1: against him, as you said, so like no one has
10:52
Speaker 1: any comment about it. Yeah, and nor do they refute
10:56
Speaker 1: his good taste and other things. So I do think
10:59
Speaker 1: that the that things that are a woman's concern, the
11:02
Speaker 1: beauty industry, clothing, all of these forms, many of which
11:06
Speaker 1: are forms of creative expression, are totally devalued. And with Lucky,
11:12
Speaker 1: I needed to have my ego check too in some ways.
11:15
Speaker 1: You know. I went to Yale, I was an English major.
11:18
Speaker 1: I found you know, I was looking at my thesis.
11:21
Speaker 1: Maybe at the beginning of COVID when I was going
11:23
Speaker 1: through everything and I was like, well, I don't even
11:25
Speaker 1: understand what I was saying. Really it was about Andrew
11:28
Speaker 1: Marvel and John Milton and the loss of innocence, and
11:31
Speaker 1: it was.
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Speaker 3: So loaded any of those people up.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like when I got the job at Lucky, it
11:35
Speaker 1: was so grateful to get any job. But when I graduated,
11:39
Speaker 1: there was sort of there was the nine to eleven
11:42
Speaker 1: bubble bursting, et cetera, and so it was just a
11:46
Speaker 1: mess and suddenly everyone's job offers were rescinded, and there
11:49
Speaker 1: was there was this idea when you had an Ivy
11:52
Speaker 1: League degree, and I was certainly raised with this idea,
11:55
Speaker 1: which I think is shattering, that you can build a
11:59
Speaker 1: fortress within a world of pedigree and outside authorities deeming
12:06
Speaker 1: you as worthy that will be impenetrable and keep you
12:09
Speaker 1: safe and secure for the rest of your life, like
12:11
Speaker 1: you can sort of wallpaper around yourself with pedigree. And now,
12:16
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we all recognize that's totally bullshit
12:19
Speaker 1: and or it's falling apart and a good way that
12:22
Speaker 1: I think is really healthy and good. But at the
12:25
Speaker 1: time when I graduated. It was, you know, they were
12:29
Speaker 1: hiring English majors like me to work at Goldman Sachs.
12:35
Speaker 1: So all of that started to fall away. And so
12:39
Speaker 1: when I got my job at Lucky, I was so grateful.
12:42
Speaker 1: It was a part time freelance job returning samples in
12:45
Speaker 1: the closet. It was desperate for job.
12:48
Speaker 3: Really sparkly, really sparkly.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I reorganized that that closet. It was I worked
12:54
Speaker 1: on the giveaway pages. I was trafficking sweepstakes.
12:57
Speaker 3: Rules and you were always of service.
13:00
Speaker 1: I was always of service. And I remember meeting with
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Speaker 1: HR once. I was in the building because someone at
13:06
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair was hiring an assistant and they were going
13:09
Speaker 1: to send me up to interview to be Anna Wintour's assistant.
13:12
Speaker 1: Although I never did that. I never got that interview.
13:16
Speaker 1: There was a job at The New Yorker. And it's
13:19
Speaker 1: funny with the Vanity Fair interview, they were like, you
13:22
Speaker 1: don't want this job. You'll be doing less, Like you'll
13:25
Speaker 1: just be answering someone's phone, and you should just stay
13:28
Speaker 1: where you are because there's more opportunity. And I was like,
13:33
Speaker 1: but it's Vanity Fair, you should stay where you are. Anyway,
13:37
Speaker 1: it was interesting because it was like a needed rejection,
13:41
Speaker 1: so interesting, and I'm so glad I stayed out lucky
13:44
Speaker 1: because I learned I had to relearn how to write
13:48
Speaker 1: in a way that was straightforward and accessible, in the
13:51
Speaker 1: way that people actually speak, rather than sort of bound
13:56
Speaker 1: up in academia.
13:58
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell this quick anecdotis I think it's
14:01
Speaker 4: reinforces what you said. I was in college and had
14:05
Speaker 4: an internship lined up for the summer at MTV in
14:08
Speaker 4: New York, which to me felt really like that was,
14:11
Speaker 4: oh my god.
14:12
Speaker 3: It's everything I wanted.
14:14
Speaker 4: And then I got an internship offer at this place
14:17
Speaker 4: called Windy City Live in Chicago, and it was a
14:19
Speaker 4: brand new show launching, and I called the only person
14:23
Speaker 4: I knew that worked in TV, and she said, to me,
14:27
Speaker 4: MTV seems really exciting, but I know from working on
14:31
Speaker 4: shows that there is nothing like being a part of
14:34
Speaker 4: something from its inception. And I took that Windy City
14:38
Speaker 4: Local gig, and to this day it's been one of
14:40
Speaker 4: the most valuable experiences I've ever had.
14:43
Speaker 3: And I think there's something.
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Speaker 1: There's something really important to that. Yes, because when you
14:49
Speaker 1: are looking at when you're thinking about your career, and
14:51
Speaker 1: you are contemplating moves. I think there are sort of
14:57
Speaker 1: a few different facets. There is obviously like comp which
15:01
Speaker 1: is important, salary, benefits, equity, all of these things. This
15:06
Speaker 1: is what drives our lives. It's not it's important, it's
15:09
Speaker 1: not the only thing obviously. Then there is brand, right,
15:14
Speaker 1: the shininess of the brand, the influence what that brand
15:18
Speaker 1: then telegraphs about you. And brand is an interesting word,
15:22
Speaker 1: you know. It's like as this woman who I follow says, like,
15:26
Speaker 1: we use brands on cattle, so we should think about
15:31
Speaker 1: the ways that we attach and adhere ourselves to brands
15:35
Speaker 1: and what they represent. So there's brand, the brand value,
15:38
Speaker 1: the MTV value, the lack of brand for Windy City,
15:42
Speaker 1: you know. But it's a there's a validating force. And
15:44
Speaker 1: people are scanning a resume and they're like, oh, I
15:46
Speaker 1: recognize that name right, So I get it. It's important.
15:50
Speaker 1: And then there is and this is I think the
15:52
Speaker 1: most valuable thing for anyone before they is under thirty.
15:57
Speaker 1: What are you going to learn? You know, it's called
16:00
Speaker 1: over again, like how much can you learn? Even if
16:03
Speaker 1: it's not directly related to what you're doing? What is
16:07
Speaker 1: the company doing? How much growth? Is possible, both vertically
16:11
Speaker 1: and laterally. Who else are you wanting to be exposed to?
16:15
Speaker 1: What industry are they disrupting or not? And that I
16:19
Speaker 1: think is the most important unknown quotient to any career.
16:24
Speaker 1: And every time I've left a job or an industry,
16:28
Speaker 1: in part, it's been because I've just run into the
16:31
Speaker 1: wall of I don't think I can that there's anything
16:35
Speaker 1: more for me to learn, and I don't know that
16:36
Speaker 1: there's anything more that I can add. Yeah, and when
16:40
Speaker 1: you're bored isn't necessarily the right word, But when you're there,
16:45
Speaker 1: then you have to go.
16:47
Speaker 4: I was just going to ask you when it's time
16:50
Speaker 4: to leap, because you've made some really I think thoughtful
16:53
Speaker 4: career leaps.
16:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, you just feel there.
16:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's always complicated, and it's always scary, and
17:02
Speaker 1: sometimes you need to be thrown and sometimes you jump,
17:05
Speaker 1: you know, or maybe thrones out the right word. Sometimes
17:08
Speaker 1: you'll be pushed and sometimes you'll jump. Sometimes you'll just
17:10
Speaker 1: walk out, but and walk into something else, you know,
17:13
Speaker 1: which is obviously the easiest way to do it.
17:18
Speaker 3: Try easier, try easier, but it is.
17:24
Speaker 1: For me, it's like a deep feeling, sort of an
17:27
Speaker 1: underlying anxiety of like an agitation for me where I'm like,
17:32
Speaker 1: this is becoming out of alignment with my values, or
17:36
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm of service anymore, or I
17:40
Speaker 1: don't I'm irritable rather than inspired. Or I also think
17:46
Speaker 1: that you can get to a point where, depending on
17:49
Speaker 1: whether you're managing a team or not, that you can
17:52
Speaker 1: look around the room and just feel like, if you're
17:55
Speaker 1: a good manager, you're training people to replace you every day.
18:00
Speaker 1: And so I've also had that experience of like, these
18:02
Speaker 1: people don't need I'm only a hindrance, you know. No,
18:07
Speaker 1: It's true, it's like that. I think if you're doing
18:10
Speaker 1: your job right, that's what that's the legacy is, I
18:14
Speaker 1: don't need to be here because everything will go as
18:17
Speaker 1: as intended.
18:18
Speaker 4: In my experience in corporate atmospheres, most people are doing
18:21
Speaker 4: the exact opposite.
18:23
Speaker 3: They are trying so hard to hold on to their job.
18:25
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, yeah, and there's a that's driven by fear,
18:29
Speaker 1: which is completely understandable. But I think that we're always
18:32
Speaker 1: being If you sort of listen to that inner driving
18:35
Speaker 1: voice your soul, you can something divine or not, depending
18:40
Speaker 1: on what you believe about the world. Like you will
18:44
Speaker 1: feel that compulsion. And one of the early lessons that
18:46
Speaker 1: I learned in my career because I was out lucky,
18:49
Speaker 1: actually had sort of an abusive coworker who was definitely
18:54
Speaker 1: affecting my mental health. And I left because of it,
18:57
Speaker 1: like I and it was really hard to find another job.
19:00
Speaker 1: It took me six months. I think most people should
19:02
Speaker 1: expect that it's going to take that long. I needed
19:05
Speaker 1: another job. I couldn't just quit, and and I had
19:08
Speaker 1: this revelation, which again is very ordinary but felt important
19:12
Speaker 1: at the time, which was, no one's just gonna like
19:15
Speaker 1: pluck me from this situation, Like I'm not gonna No
19:19
Speaker 1: one's gonna just look at me and be like you,
19:22
Speaker 1: you are the person that we've been looking for. Like you,
19:26
Speaker 1: I recognized that I had to put myself in motion.
19:29
Speaker 1: And it goes back to that not workaholism, but that
19:32
Speaker 1: comfort with being with doing, and that's what I did.
19:37
Speaker 4: You actually changed my life when you talked about this
19:39
Speaker 4: on the Goop podcast, really because you said that you
19:42
Speaker 4: grew up in an era with the game show where
19:46
Speaker 4: like game shows were.
19:48
Speaker 1: Star search model searches.
19:51
Speaker 3: You were plucked from obscurity security.
19:53
Speaker 1: Kate Moss on an airplane. You're at the mall like
19:56
Speaker 1: those stories.
19:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, Channing Tatum was walking down like South Beach and
20:01
Speaker 4: got plucked out of oblivion.
20:02
Speaker 1: Yes, and you just by being there and being present,
20:05
Speaker 1: someone is going to see you, recognize you, embrace you,
20:09
Speaker 1: and give you your life.
20:11
Speaker 3: And it is quite the opposite.
20:12
Speaker 1: It is quite the opposite, and no one's gonna I
20:16
Speaker 1: think that the universe opens door shuts doors, moves you
20:20
Speaker 1: around on the board game. But like, if you're not
20:23
Speaker 1: in play, you're not in action, nothing's going to happen.
20:28
Speaker 4: There's a great quote about luck that I love that
20:31
Speaker 4: It's like a bus and a lot of buses will
20:34
Speaker 4: come during the day, but you got to be at the.
20:36
Speaker 3: Bus station waiting.
20:37
Speaker 1: You have to be at the bus station. Yeah, And
20:39
Speaker 1: I think that again, and I should just the woman
20:43
Speaker 1: that I keep referencing is her name is chris Is Schumacher,
20:46
Speaker 1: and she actually is like, has a book coming out
20:48
Speaker 1: in November. This is this the one who I've mentioned
20:51
Speaker 1: a few times where I'm like, oh, and this person
20:53
Speaker 1: I follow or love a door. She was talking to
20:57
Speaker 1: you about buses and vehicles and how often and I
21:01
Speaker 1: should give a little bit of extra context you can
21:03
Speaker 1: cut this if you need. It's so strange, but she
21:05
Speaker 1: channels yes, Sua, she channels Jesus. So I'll just drop
21:11
Speaker 1: that here. But she said she was giving a transmission,
21:15
Speaker 1: and she was talking about how we conflate our vehicle
21:20
Speaker 1: with our purpose and that we get really attached to
21:24
Speaker 1: our vehicle. Whoa yeah, And that our vehicle will likely
21:28
Speaker 1: change many times throughout life. We need flexibility to like
21:32
Speaker 1: get in and out and to not always sometimes we're
21:34
Speaker 1: an evolvo and sometimes you're in a hunda. It doesn't matter.
21:38
Speaker 1: It's irrelevant and not the same. It shouldn't be conflated.
21:42
Speaker 1: And that she was I think talking about buses and
21:45
Speaker 1: bus stops, but she was like, there are no wrong turns.
21:48
Speaker 1: What is not for you will never be for you,
21:51
Speaker 1: and what is for you you will find. And you
21:55
Speaker 1: might make detours because there's free choice, free will, but
21:58
Speaker 1: we will keep bringing it around, and we will keep
22:02
Speaker 1: bringing it around, and we will keep bringing you around
22:04
Speaker 1: and you will get there.
22:06
Speaker 4: It's really important to remind yourself of because I think,
22:09
Speaker 4: at least for me, particularly right out of college up
22:13
Speaker 4: until recently, I felt like every decision.
22:16
Speaker 3: Was so consequential. Yeah, And it just adds so much
22:19
Speaker 3: stress to your life.
22:20
Speaker 1: No, and it's it is consequential, sure, but you will
22:25
Speaker 1: make the wrong choices. You will think that you're getting
22:29
Speaker 1: on a highway and find that it's a dead end,
22:32
Speaker 1: you know, And you can sit there and you can
22:34
Speaker 1: sort of pound your fists on the steering wheel, or
22:36
Speaker 1: you can just turn around and or get off. And
22:41
Speaker 1: I do think I have been good at that of accepting.
22:45
Speaker 1: I would say when like I'm on a d tour,
22:49
Speaker 1: or I'm in a cul de sac, or you know,
22:51
Speaker 1: we can keep going with the transportation. Yeah, metaphors, but
22:54
Speaker 1: but it doesn't. You can't like drive through the bushes.
22:58
Speaker 1: It's just some things are not for you or not
23:00
Speaker 1: for you at that moment.
23:02
Speaker 3: So fast forward several jobs.
23:04
Speaker 4: You and your husband moved to California and you become
23:07
Speaker 4: chief content officer at GUP and you wrote, on an
23:10
Speaker 4: emotional and spiritual and personal level, goop has impacted my
23:13
Speaker 4: work in a way that was not what I would
23:15
Speaker 4: have ever expected to get from a job emotionally and spiritually.
23:20
Speaker 3: How did you shift?
23:22
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think I grew up My dad
23:26
Speaker 1: as a doctor, my mom is a nurse. I grew
23:28
Speaker 1: up and sort of this very practical, literary world, very
23:34
Speaker 1: grounded in nature. And then when I first got to Get,
23:39
Speaker 1: I wasn't super aware. I was obviously aware of GUP,
23:42
Speaker 1: but I hadn't really spent much time looking at it.
23:44
Speaker 1: And at that point when I had been living in London,
23:47
Speaker 1: and it was definitely a big cultural thing, but it
23:50
Speaker 1: was not what it is today. And when we met
23:54
Speaker 1: and I started looking through sort of the content, looking
23:57
Speaker 1: at the incredible engagement, which is so hard to do.
24:00
Speaker 1: It so hard to build a brand that's resonant and
24:03
Speaker 1: that people pay attention to. But the stuff that she
24:06
Speaker 1: was talking about was very new to me. I had
24:09
Speaker 1: never worked in the wellness space. It didn't really exist.
24:14
Speaker 1: But at that time outside of Goop or Health magazine
24:18
Speaker 1: or Shape, which is about you know, triceps and biceps,
24:21
Speaker 1: and through Goop, I was really just allowed to explore
24:25
Speaker 1: and create these content verticals and really expand it and
24:30
Speaker 1: just follow my own interests and intuition and curiosity. And
24:35
Speaker 1: so it was fun. It was really fun to have
24:38
Speaker 1: that sort of sandbox because the things that I had covered,
24:42
Speaker 1: you know, shopping, fashion, you know, we had I hired
24:45
Speaker 1: subject matter experts and really focused on the things that
24:51
Speaker 1: were new to me and took I think readers on
24:54
Speaker 1: that journey of discovery. And so it was really the
24:58
Speaker 1: first time like that I'd really examined and my deep
25:01
Speaker 1: emotional life or thought about the way that our minds
25:07
Speaker 1: and bodies are connected, things that again feel so obvious
25:10
Speaker 1: and so mainstream now, but weren't, you know. I remember
25:16
Speaker 1: doing a story after I had just had my first child,
25:19
Speaker 1: and I felt so terrible and I just in a
25:23
Speaker 1: way that I had never had a I wouldn't call
25:24
Speaker 1: it a health crisis, but in a way it felt
25:26
Speaker 1: that way where I was like, I feel terrible, and
25:29
Speaker 1: I ended up being incredibly anemic and my hormones were disaster,
25:33
Speaker 1: et cetera. But it was the first time I'd had
25:35
Speaker 1: that experience. And so I worked with Alejandre Younger who
25:39
Speaker 1: put me in touch with this doctor in Australia named
25:42
Speaker 1: Oscar Saralak, and we did a piece together called post
25:45
Speaker 1: natal Depletion, and it broke the internet. It was everywhere
25:51
Speaker 1: because it spoke to something that women have been feeling
25:55
Speaker 1: in America forever that has never that had no name.
25:59
Speaker 1: So there was like post part depression et cetera. But
26:01
Speaker 1: like nothing that addressed the fact that women are incredibly
26:05
Speaker 1: depleted by pregnancy and we don't have a culture like
26:08
Speaker 1: many other cultures where that's intent on rebuilding the woman. Anyway,
26:13
Speaker 1: this is all so mainstream now and in a way
26:16
Speaker 1: that's funny where I'm like, oh, there are like a
26:18
Speaker 1: million postnatal companies and a lot of brands that are
26:22
Speaker 1: talking about this, and it's not saying that we invented it,
26:25
Speaker 1: but at that time, these were new conversations and so
26:31
Speaker 1: so fun to participate in that and just like have
26:35
Speaker 1: my not spidy sense, but just be like, what's happening
26:38
Speaker 1: around me, and like what do I sense? Are the
26:41
Speaker 1: experiences of other women that we're not talking about? And
26:45
Speaker 1: that was really like sort of the impetus.
26:47
Speaker 4: Well, you had such far reach because you had all
26:50
Speaker 4: these engaged yeah viewers and audience members and had such
26:54
Speaker 4: a pull.
26:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Like people were fascinated with what we were doing,
27:00
Speaker 1: and it was polarizing for no real good reason.
27:04
Speaker 3: Well, I actually wanted to I don't know if you're
27:06
Speaker 3: like willing.
27:07
Speaker 4: I know you tweeted an article I read about the
27:09
Speaker 4: criticism of Goop. Yeah, but to me, it's the same
27:12
Speaker 4: reason that there's criticism of Gwyneth, which is the world
27:18
Speaker 4: does not like things that look too good. Yeah right,
27:23
Speaker 4: it's like she's.
27:24
Speaker 3: Ahead of her time. Goops ahead, it was ahead of
27:26
Speaker 3: its time.
27:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally. I think it's a it's an attempt,
27:30
Speaker 1: it's a rebalancing attempt in some weird way. I've spent
27:33
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about what it is that
27:35
Speaker 1: drives that, because it's so easy to just don't pay attention,
27:39
Speaker 1: you know, like, don't look. It's so it's it was
27:41
Speaker 1: really wild how crazy making it could be for people.
27:48
Speaker 1: And I think it goes back to who do we
27:50
Speaker 1: invest with authority and who doesn't get authority? And it's
27:54
Speaker 1: not a coincidence, you know that it's women that are
27:59
Speaker 1: not as vested with authority or who are questioned. But
28:04
Speaker 1: I think we're still sort of shaking that out, teasing
28:06
Speaker 1: that out culturally.
28:08
Speaker 3: What was your most challenging day there?
28:11
Speaker 1: Maybe for me personally. We did that. We did this
28:16
Speaker 1: Netflix show and it was one of those the first
28:19
Speaker 1: season and I was like, oh, I really feel like
28:21
Speaker 1: people will understand what we're trying to do, take it
28:24
Speaker 1: or leave it. That was not how it worked out.
28:28
Speaker 1: But it was the first time. I think a big
28:31
Speaker 1: part of it was just more personal because I have
28:34
Speaker 1: always you know, I grew up at magazines at a
28:36
Speaker 1: time when editors became celebrities and were featured prominently in magazines,
28:41
Speaker 1: and I didn't participate in that. I have ghost written
28:45
Speaker 1: twelve books. I love working for brands. I love to
28:50
Speaker 1: be invisible and to hide. And then at Goop I
28:54
Speaker 1: did the podcast first, which was which was just my voice,
28:59
Speaker 1: and so that felt very safe. It was supposed to
29:01
Speaker 1: be me, Gwene an handful of other editors, but it
29:04
Speaker 1: was pretty much just me. And then the show was
29:07
Speaker 1: the first time that I was really like physically seen,
29:10
Speaker 1: and so I think I had a lot of unacknowledged
29:14
Speaker 1: feelings about that and felt very scared and exposed. It
29:19
Speaker 1: was fine, It was totally fine, ultimately, but it was
29:23
Speaker 1: very scary because I think as women, it's much safer
29:26
Speaker 1: to be invisible.
29:28
Speaker 3: Interesting, do you think you've wiggled out.
29:30
Speaker 1: Of that, you mean, like gone invisible or I'm just
29:36
Speaker 1: still struggling with it.
29:37
Speaker 2: Really.
29:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've enjoyed COVID, I've enjoyed I love
29:41
Speaker 1: doing my podcast. My own podcast feels so good. I
29:45
Speaker 1: love talking to people. But and I'm writing a book,
29:50
Speaker 1: which is so fun. The process of writing a book
29:52
Speaker 1: is so fun. The process of editing the book and
29:55
Speaker 1: thinking about the book coming out into the world is
29:57
Speaker 1: very brutal. But I don't know. I think I still.
30:03
Speaker 3: Like, I'm wondering what the invisibility gives.
30:06
Speaker 1: You nothing, But it just for some reason, there's a
30:12
Speaker 1: fear of I think it's cultural, you know, I think
30:15
Speaker 1: you see what happens to women who get too much attention.
30:20
Speaker 1: You know, it's.
30:21
Speaker 3: There's always had a front row seat to that.
30:24
Speaker 1: Kind of But I think it's a deeper feeling for me.
30:26
Speaker 1: I think it's like a childhood. We love to build
30:29
Speaker 1: women up and tear them down, more so with women
30:34
Speaker 1: than with men. And so there's part of me that's like,
30:38
Speaker 1: I don't need to be visible, Like all I want
30:41
Speaker 1: to do is give people information and access to really
30:44
Speaker 1: interesting people and ways to think about the world so
30:48
Speaker 1: that it makes a little bit more sense. I think
30:50
Speaker 1: part of it is just feeling like I would like
30:53
Speaker 1: to just be a channel for that and not like
30:57
Speaker 1: just not about me. Does that make sense.
31:00
Speaker 3: More than you even know?
31:01
Speaker 4: It's the thing I struggle with most it's like I'm
31:04
Speaker 4: the messenger.
31:05
Speaker 3: Not the message.
31:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I want to ask you about I want
31:09
Speaker 4: to ask you about this in a deeper way. So
31:11
Speaker 4: you've co authored eleven books, five New York Times bestsellers.
31:15
Speaker 3: Don't cringe. It's amazing.
31:18
Speaker 4: Some of these books were for Ellen DeGeneres, Leah Michelle,
31:21
Speaker 4: Lauren Conrad.
31:23
Speaker 3: You are writing your first book in your own name.
31:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
31:26
Speaker 4: I was trying to think about, like how I wanted
31:28
Speaker 4: to phrase this question, and I realized, for so long
31:31
Speaker 4: you've been the conduit.
31:33
Speaker 3: What does it feel like now to be it?
31:36
Speaker 1: Oh, the vulnerability bath that I take daily. My book
31:40
Speaker 1: is due. It was due two weeks ago. It's done.
31:44
Speaker 1: I mean I I got it in, you know, I
31:46
Speaker 1: haven't passed it in because I am like circling the
31:49
Speaker 1: drain of feeling inadequate and vulnerable and scared and all
31:54
Speaker 1: of those things. And my editors like, just send it
31:56
Speaker 1: to me, just like give it to me. This is
31:57
Speaker 1: my job to help you. Finished burthening it into the world,
32:02
Speaker 1: and it took me. It's funny because so I have
32:07
Speaker 1: ghost written so many books. You know. The first book
32:09
Speaker 1: I did was with Lauren Conrad, Like around Style, I
32:12
Speaker 1: did a lot of books in that space, like interiors books.
32:16
Speaker 1: Then I moved more into business books, memoirs, et cetera.
32:21
Speaker 1: And my agent who's very patient, but I was working
32:27
Speaker 1: on a project that went sort of sideways, not nothing
32:30
Speaker 1: to do with me, but the author ultimately was like,
32:33
Speaker 1: I can't publish this book for reasons at work. It
32:36
Speaker 1: was essentially set to publish, it was already printed more
32:41
Speaker 1: or less. So he like paid that back, his advance
32:43
Speaker 1: paid me out and it's like this is so that
32:47
Speaker 1: was such a waste of time, you know, like why
32:50
Speaker 1: did I do that? And she was like, I don't
32:51
Speaker 1: know why you're doing any of this. I'm working on
32:53
Speaker 1: a ghostwriting project of course right now, because I can't
32:57
Speaker 1: break myself from the habit. But she was like, when
33:02
Speaker 1: are you going to write your own book? And I
33:04
Speaker 1: was like, I don't have a book at me. She
33:05
Speaker 1: was like, you have written twelve Like I beg to differ,
33:10
Speaker 1: And I think it was just really that, you know,
33:14
Speaker 1: working through this aversion to putting myself out there, which
33:19
Speaker 1: feels so scary and it's hard, as you know, you know,
33:23
Speaker 1: like you it's never just immediate validation and oh my god,
33:29
Speaker 1: you're here. We're so excited. We've been waiting for you.
33:32
Speaker 3: It's I've been waiting for you last. There's definitely more
33:35
Speaker 3: of me's out there, You're so nice. There are, But
33:38
Speaker 3: how'd you figure out what you wanted it to be about?
33:41
Speaker 1: So it's funny because part of it goes back to
33:44
Speaker 1: that sort of dismal day when I first read the
33:47
Speaker 1: reviews of the Gooplob Show, where I was just feeling
33:53
Speaker 1: really down and I went I was interviewing Glennon that afternoon.
33:57
Speaker 1: So I was down in Florida for her book for Untamed,
33:59
Speaker 1: which had not come out yet, and it was I
34:01
Speaker 1: think maybe one of the only in person things she
34:03
Speaker 1: ended up doing because COVID and so I interviewed her early.
34:07
Speaker 1: This was in January, and maybe six months before, I
34:11
Speaker 1: had been talking to Lori Gottlieb, who's a therapist and
34:15
Speaker 1: she has U She was sort of a throwaway line
34:18
Speaker 1: in her book, but it just stuck in my mind
34:20
Speaker 1: where she says, I always tell my clients to listen
34:23
Speaker 1: to envy. It shows you what you want, and that
34:29
Speaker 1: felt very true to me. And so I was sitting
34:32
Speaker 1: with Glennon after I just felt so much better seeing
34:35
Speaker 1: her like, I was like, this is exactly what I need.
34:37
Speaker 1: After this, there was more context of the day, but
34:40
Speaker 1: it's boring. But I was just low. And then I
34:43
Speaker 1: was with Glennon and I brought up that line from
34:46
Speaker 1: Laurie and I was like, what do you think that's about?
34:49
Speaker 1: And she said, well, I think that women don't even
34:53
Speaker 1: know what we want because we've been conditioned to not
34:56
Speaker 1: have any once at all. I was like, oh my god.
35:00
Speaker 1: And so I flew home that night and I emailed
35:04
Speaker 1: my brother and I was like, who's a book editor?
35:06
Speaker 1: And I was like, I think I should write a
35:07
Speaker 1: book about envy and he was like, well, nobody really
35:11
Speaker 1: wants to cultivate more envy in their life. And I
35:14
Speaker 1: was like, okay, that's fair, but everybody experienced everybody experiences it.
35:19
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, what's the deeper idea, Like
35:21
Speaker 1: what is this really about? And I was like where
35:24
Speaker 1: does eNB come from? Like what are its cultural roots?
35:28
Speaker 1: And I was like it's one of the sins. And
35:32
Speaker 1: then I was like what are the sins? And I
35:34
Speaker 1: was like holy shit, Like this is the morality map
35:38
Speaker 1: for women? Lust, greed, envy, sloth, pride, So yes and
35:47
Speaker 1: so that's what my book is about. It's about the
35:49
Speaker 1: ways in which women in particular have been culturally programmed
35:53
Speaker 1: without our consent or knowledge. But these things are so subconscious,
35:58
Speaker 1: this like these behaviors around and how to behave in
36:01
Speaker 1: part so that we are belong, that we're safe, so
36:03
Speaker 1: that we're protected by the patriarchy. So that's what my
36:06
Speaker 1: book is about.
36:07
Speaker 4: What has been your largest asset or tool in unlearning
36:13
Speaker 4: or untaming.
36:15
Speaker 1: The untaming, the awareness. So as I worked through each
36:20
Speaker 1: sin and I write a fair amount about myself, but
36:24
Speaker 1: I also sort of looked to historians, feminists, other writers, friends,
36:31
Speaker 1: sort of for a survey of how these show up
36:34
Speaker 1: in our lives. And it was really hard work. Not
36:39
Speaker 1: so much intellectually. It was really fun, you know, no
36:42
Speaker 1: every excuse to go and read hundreds of books, but
36:46
Speaker 1: processing my own relationship was really hard because I had
36:52
Speaker 1: to look at all the ways in which I myself
36:54
Speaker 1: am not free. And yeah, so like the conversation about
36:59
Speaker 1: sloth and my parents driving me to be productive, which
37:05
Speaker 1: to me comes out as a child. It's well intentioned,
37:09
Speaker 1: but then you feel is that is the love conditional
37:12
Speaker 1: on my performance all of those things? So I had
37:14
Speaker 1: to like, it's like deep therapy to think about these
37:17
Speaker 1: things and write about them over the span of fifteen months,
37:22
Speaker 1: which is pretty fast but slow for me. But I
37:25
Speaker 1: think that my hope for the book, which won't be
37:28
Speaker 1: up for a while, is that it becomes a therapy
37:31
Speaker 1: space for other women, because I think what we also
37:34
Speaker 1: do is when we police these things in ourselves, we
37:38
Speaker 1: police them in each other. So when I don't allow
37:41
Speaker 1: you to fully express because it brings up in me
37:45
Speaker 1: all the things that I feel badly about or the
37:48
Speaker 1: ways in which I would never allow myself to do that,
37:51
Speaker 1: we get into this circular firing squad which I think
37:54
Speaker 1: holds us all back.
37:56
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I like feel confronted.
38:03
Speaker 4: Well, when the book comes out, you're gonna have to
38:05
Speaker 4: come back so we can go. But in the meantime,
38:10
Speaker 4: you are doing your own podcast called Pulling the Thread. Yes,
38:13
Speaker 4: and that's where everybody can get sort of a dose
38:16
Speaker 4: of you before the book comes out.
38:18
Speaker 1: Yes, it's many of the themes because that's what I've
38:21
Speaker 1: been thinking about. It's similar to what I did when
38:24
Speaker 1: I was the co host of the Goop podcast.
38:27
Speaker 3: It's different though, Yeah, as a consumer, not to tell
38:30
Speaker 3: you about yourself.
38:30
Speaker 1: Please tell me how it's different to me.
38:33
Speaker 4: When I listened to you host Goop, there was an
38:36
Speaker 4: underlying spiritual element in most of the episodes, regardless of
38:39
Speaker 4: the topics. Yeah, and I think you're four or five
38:43
Speaker 4: episodes in Pulling the Thread. And you know, I listen
38:47
Speaker 4: to podcasts a lot of different types, and I find
38:51
Speaker 4: that some of its confirmation bias. People are sort of
38:54
Speaker 4: keeping me company in their thoughts, but a lot of
38:56
Speaker 4: it is either stuff I already know about or I'm
38:59
Speaker 4: just hearing them sort of chit chat. When I listen
39:02
Speaker 4: to your podcast, you have an uncanny way of making
39:08
Speaker 4: complicated information that would feel intimidating to me to pick.
39:11
Speaker 3: Up in a book.
39:13
Speaker 4: You like, synthesize the information so I can digest it
39:16
Speaker 4: right and I can you make it applicable to our lives?
39:19
Speaker 3: Thank you?
39:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you want people to take away from
39:23
Speaker 4: the podcast?
39:23
Speaker 3: How do you want them to feel when they.
39:26
Speaker 1: You said it earlier too, where you were like, it's
39:29
Speaker 1: just the small things. So I feel like the most
39:33
Speaker 1: I can hope for and the most I would want
39:35
Speaker 1: because I think we also we can only metabolize information
39:39
Speaker 1: a little bit at a time. As for someone to
39:41
Speaker 1: be like that reframes something ever so slightly for me,
39:45
Speaker 1: or I feel a little bit closer to myself, or
39:49
Speaker 1: I understand now where that comes from. That's the most
39:51
Speaker 1: I could hope for.
39:53
Speaker 3: Awesome, I do some rapid fire.
39:55
Speaker 4: Oh god, so this is like no pressure truly whatever
40:00
Speaker 4: comes to your mind, and then these are going to
40:02
Speaker 4: be deep questions. Is there anything about your path that
40:05
Speaker 4: surprises you when you look back?
40:07
Speaker 1: Everything about it is so strange, and yet I think
40:12
Speaker 1: a moment, like when I think back, there's resonance with
40:14
Speaker 1: where I am, if that makes sense, Like I never
40:17
Speaker 1: would have imagined that this would be my life, but
40:20
Speaker 1: I can see why it is.
40:23
Speaker 4: I was connecting your dots as I was going through
40:25
Speaker 4: your map, and I was like, each one led to
40:27
Speaker 4: the like it makes sense, but it made no sense
40:30
Speaker 4: on the way.
40:31
Speaker 1: No, it made no sense in the way.
40:32
Speaker 3: You must have been confused on the way there.
40:34
Speaker 1: The path is strange, but I think that's true for
40:36
Speaker 1: all of us, Like it's just you're getting their byways,
40:38
Speaker 1: highways and dirt roads.
40:41
Speaker 3: Back to vehicles.
40:42
Speaker 4: Out of all your moments, which one felt most personal
40:46
Speaker 4: and proud for you?
40:48
Speaker 1: So trite, but you know, being a mom at two
40:52
Speaker 1: boys five and eight, and I traveled all the time,
40:57
Speaker 1: so I took my second child to the office with
41:00
Speaker 1: me at six weeks just because work was so crazy
41:03
Speaker 1: and I needed to be back. He came to the
41:05
Speaker 1: office with me as a baby, which was actually really cute.
41:08
Speaker 1: But we had sort of accepted my life when I
41:13
Speaker 1: was at my son's preschool once and the teacher was like, oh,
41:17
Speaker 1: it was so funny. We were talking to Sammy's friend
41:19
Speaker 1: whose parents are divorced, and he said he had two houses.
41:21
Speaker 1: And I asked Sammy if he has one house or
41:23
Speaker 1: two houses, and he says, I have one house and
41:25
Speaker 1: I live there with my daddy and my Mommy lives
41:27
Speaker 1: at the office. He said that when he was three,
41:30
Speaker 1: So I think, weirdly, being home, Wow, not having a
41:37
Speaker 1: full time job and being with my kids during COVID
41:42
Speaker 1: has been so profound for me. And I actually had
41:45
Speaker 1: to go on a business trip for company I'm consulting for,
41:49
Speaker 1: and my oldest son, like inconsolably cried. This is a weird,
41:54
Speaker 1: proud moment, but it was like a testament to me
41:57
Speaker 1: of how much closer we were, how important it is
42:01
Speaker 1: that I'm around and like it was so oddly validating,
42:07
Speaker 1: which is a really weird thing to say. But I've
42:09
Speaker 1: almost felt like an accessory to my kid's life because
42:13
Speaker 1: so much of what they did ran without me.
42:16
Speaker 3: Wow, that's really beautiful.
42:19
Speaker 4: Thank that.
42:22
Speaker 3: It's a hard decision to make because I know how
42:23
Speaker 3: much your work means to you. Yeah, it's funny.
42:27
Speaker 4: This is off the rails too. But I almost asked
42:29
Speaker 4: you about this article that I read. It was from
42:32
Speaker 4: twenty twelve in The Atlantic and a woman in the government.
42:35
Speaker 4: She was the first person to hold a security position.
42:38
Speaker 4: Oh you said women can't.
42:39
Speaker 3: Have it all?
42:40
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Anne Marie Slaughter.
42:41
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, how do you know what I'm talking Of.
42:44
Speaker 1: Course I know what you're talking about. That one was
42:46
Speaker 1: ricochet around the world. Yeah, it's a really difficult and
42:50
Speaker 1: it gets goes back to sort of what I was
42:53
Speaker 1: writing about in my book, which is part of the
42:55
Speaker 1: cultural shift that needs to happen, which is we need
42:59
Speaker 1: to stop celebrating men for showing up and stop punishing
43:07
Speaker 1: women for not being there all the time. You know,
43:10
Speaker 1: this is the reality of my marriage. It's just a
43:12
Speaker 1: cultural reality. Like my husband goes to the grocery store,
43:15
Speaker 1: everyone is full of affirmation and praise for my husband's parenting.
43:19
Speaker 1: And yes he's a great dad and he's involved. For sure,
43:23
Speaker 1: I do way more. He might contest me on that,
43:28
Speaker 1: but like in terms of the invisible labor, I do
43:31
Speaker 1: almost all.
43:32
Speaker 3: Of it culturally expected.
43:33
Speaker 1: It's expected, and there's a certain amount of derision that
43:36
Speaker 1: we still have for women who choose one or the other.
43:39
Speaker 1: There's still mommy wars. It's all a shame spiral goes
43:43
Speaker 1: back to that circular firing squad of every choice feeling
43:46
Speaker 1: like the wrong choice. You're either wasting your potential or
43:50
Speaker 1: you're ruining your kids' lives or so. It's really it's awful,
43:55
Speaker 1: and we just hopefully out of COVID there are more
44:00
Speaker 1: are humane and flexible options for all parents. I think
44:03
Speaker 1: besides paid family leave, we need mandatory paid family leave
44:08
Speaker 1: for men too, yep.
44:09
Speaker 3: And Family Care Act.
44:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and men need to take it both for bonding
44:16
Speaker 1: and equity in their households and also as a model
44:19
Speaker 1: that families matter and that it is not just a
44:22
Speaker 1: burden for women.
44:24
Speaker 3: Or to be a caretaker for one of their parents.
44:26
Speaker 1: Of course, all of these things, the care nurturance, like
44:29
Speaker 1: the feminine principle needs to be as prioritized as the rest.
44:36
Speaker 3: Okay, the best work perk you've ever had.
44:39
Speaker 1: Press trips to really amazing places like Ananda, which I mentioned.
44:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, name someone who we may know or not
44:47
Speaker 4: know who changed your life.
44:51
Speaker 1: I mean obviously this woman Chrisa who I mentioned, the
44:56
Speaker 1: one who channels Jesus, which is so crazy.
44:59
Speaker 3: She laughs too.
45:00
Speaker 1: She's an intuitive forensic medium. And then Yeshua came through.
45:06
Speaker 1: But she has profoundly changed my life, and particularly in
45:10
Speaker 1: this year of transition that I've had, just like really
45:13
Speaker 1: holding my hand, like teaching me about faith, you know,
45:16
Speaker 1: not in a religious sense again, like there's actually weirdly
45:20
Speaker 1: nothing religious about any of the transmissions, but she's really
45:24
Speaker 1: brought me into a deeper relationship with myself.
45:28
Speaker 4: A mistake you made along the way that you'd like
45:30
Speaker 4: to save other people from.
45:32
Speaker 1: Can I teach people how to not be a perfectionist.
45:37
Speaker 3: If you can learn if let me know.
45:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, it's so hard, the biggest sacrifice you've
45:43
Speaker 4: made on your path to achievement.
45:46
Speaker 3: Hmm.
45:48
Speaker 1: So really, I mean I think I do have some
45:51
Speaker 1: regrets about giving myself so fully to my job in
45:58
Speaker 1: a way that probably wasn't nothing and not having boundaries,
46:02
Speaker 1: you know, I really that was really my fault. No
46:04
Speaker 1: one was asking that of me, you know. And I
46:08
Speaker 1: still work on boundaries. I still have very porous boundaries,
46:12
Speaker 1: but I think in that moment, I haven't been good
46:15
Speaker 1: at evaluating, like is this where I should be or
46:17
Speaker 1: should I be home?
46:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a hard decision. Which book do you most
46:23
Speaker 3: often gift?
46:25
Speaker 1: Either Angle of Repose or Crossing to Safety by Wallace Stegner.
46:29
Speaker 1: Love those novels and I think he's such an amazing writer.
46:35
Speaker 1: If I could write like anyone, I would choose to
46:37
Speaker 1: write like him.
46:39
Speaker 4: I have a pretty smart fifty two card question. Oh
46:42
Speaker 4: my god, you are deeper conversation.
46:45
Speaker 1: One thing you're trying to or need to let go of.
46:47
Speaker 3: Oh sorry that you didn't get a fun one.
46:50
Speaker 1: Now, I mean this. I feel like this is our
46:52
Speaker 1: whole conversation. I'm really trying to let go of the
46:57
Speaker 1: need for validation because I think we we are really
47:02
Speaker 1: tuned up for that right now culturally, and if something
47:05
Speaker 1: isn't immediately welcomed, loved, heralded, it's difficult. And I feel
47:11
Speaker 1: like part of this experience for me in this past However,
47:17
Speaker 1: year and a half is like feel an embrace of
47:19
Speaker 1: being a little exiled, if that makes sense, and of
47:22
Speaker 1: just being like, I'm my own island now and that's okay,
47:27
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna build from there in a way
47:31
Speaker 1: that feels really honest without needing constant affirmation and validation
47:38
Speaker 1: from out there, because I have to find it from
47:41
Speaker 1: inside of myself.
47:42
Speaker 3: That is so sad.
47:45
Speaker 4: The last question, the smartest decision you've ever made.
47:51
Speaker 1: Marrying my husband, which he was not, like, I wasn't
47:55
Speaker 1: really a decision. It was more of an eventuality. I
47:58
Speaker 1: think I'm probably not alone and feeling that way, and
48:01
Speaker 1: he was such an We are such an unlikely couple.
48:05
Speaker 1: He's unlike anyone I dated and everyone I dated, But
48:08
Speaker 1: he is such a good counterbalance to me, and he
48:16
Speaker 1: really lets me be me and gives me so much
48:18
Speaker 1: space and we don't compete for resources within our relationship
48:23
Speaker 1: in the same way. Like it's very complimentary, and he's
48:26
Speaker 1: really been He's really let me go without creating sort
48:31
Speaker 1: of anxiety or fear.
48:33
Speaker 3: It's great.
48:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels antiquated answer, but for me, it feels
48:37
Speaker 1: like a big thing.
48:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's arguably the most important decision that
48:43
Speaker 4: you make if you decide to be partnered.
48:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Wow, all right, thank you.
49:06
Speaker 3: All right, today is a good day. To have a
49:08
Speaker 3: good day. I'll see you next week. H