Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / What Dogs and Heritage Buildings Teach Us About Healing After Divorce - with Caroline Brunne

Transcript

What Dogs and Heritage Buildings Teach Us About Healing After Divorce - with Caroline Brunne · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation, and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: These are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganising life afterwards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrandry people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: This week on the podcast, I welcome Caroline Bruni.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Caroline is a trauma survivor coach, a breathwork facilitator, author, a professional speaker, and founder of InSupport Community.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: She guides adult trauma survivors through one-on-one coaching classes and workshops, creating safe, empowering spaces for healing and growth.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Alongside Louie, her certified therapeutic, Caroline combines coaching, breath work, and animal-assisted therapy to support regulation, resilience, and personal transformation.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Trigger warning for this episode, we discuss Caroline's living experience of interest and child sexual abuse and family and domestic violence.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if that is something that you're not ready to listen to right now or at all, please skip over this episode and come back and join us away.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Drawing on her living experience, Caroline transforms trauma into empowerment, helping the survivors and their supporters navigate recovery with clarity and passion.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: She prioritizes inclusion, diversity, and accessibility in all of her programs, ensuring people of any agenda and age or background can access support.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Caroline, thanks for joining me today.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the podcast.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I hope people have got a cup of tea or something because we might be here a while.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we could be here a while.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but let's start broadly.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um for listeners who don't know you aren't familiar with your work, how would you describe what you do in a nutshell?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you say that like it's so easy to do.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the easiest way of describing what I do today is I am a trauma survivor coach, a breath work facilitator, and one half of the team that is deep breaths with Louis.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um Louie is this way, Louis behind me, um, therapy dog extraordinaire, and I am his sidekick in those settings.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I say that, I do all the work.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: He just gets all the cuteness and praise.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I when I I guess when you wrap all of those up under an umbrella, I support people that have been through challenging things.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes it's just normal day-to-day life that forms challenges and stress, and that's where the breastwork and nervous system regulation through the therapy dog work really comes into play, and then there's the bigger trauma-based work that I do from a coaching and workshops capacity.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Louis because that's who everybody wants to know about, right?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really sorry, but it's true.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: How how did Louis come to be part of your work?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like a lot of things that I think when I hear origin stories, it was by accident in a way.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Louis came into our lives after we had lost another pet earlier that year.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were kind of I was ready to bring a new family member into our home, and he came in to be a pet.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it wasn't, and we'd never had dogs, like we had had dogs that had only been outdoor dogs, and then because we had been renting, and then COVID hit, and we had bought our house just before that, and so our whole experience with dogs changed in the time that we had Louis.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we had an older dog that was still with us at the time, um, but in that time frame I was doing some really big things.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was changing a lot in regards to family and and my own lived experience of trauma, and about a year or a bit into Louis joining us at home, I started writing my memoir, and so he was just with me every day.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I reflect back on that and the way that he was there, he was a therapy dog through and through, and I think a lot of people feel like that about their pets often.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: They either feel like that about their pets or they feel like their pets are the reason they need therapy.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of one way or another.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe when they're puppies and kittens and stuff.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was just a beautiful, beautiful addition to our home in that very challenging time.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And fast forward to a few years later when I had begun coaching, I had finished my um certification and whatever else, and I had a client who was we were doing stuff online, and then she said, Oh, is it like because we were local to each other?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, Oh, is it possible if we do a session in person?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'd actually really love to meet your dog.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, of course, definitely.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so not you, she didn't really want to meet you, she wanted to meet me.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, god no.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so she came along.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we actually did the session at my home because I had a beautiful outdoor space we could use, and yeah, I I saw it, I saw it firsthand, and I was like, there is something here.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I did some research and found an incredible organization called Therapy Dogs Australia, and they have so much information that you can devour before you even decide if it's the route for you.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: They have a podcast and information online and whatever else.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I devoured so many of their podcasts, and I was like, this is this is the training we're gonna do.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, fast forward two and a bit years later, I think it's November this year, he'll need to do his yearly accreditation, which will take us into our third year together.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that really leads beautifully to the next kind of question that I wanted to ask.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that is about Louis.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: What does he do differently from what a human support person can do?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know lots of my clients, either they themselves or their children, for them, their dog, their pet, their animal is really part of their I was gonna say survival, but that's not quite the right word.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's one of their support mechanisms through the challenge and the upheaval with his separation, divorce.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: What did you know, what did you say?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: What does Louis do differently?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe can you explain that kind of co-regulation in really easy terms?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really waffly question, but I know and it's interesting because I I'm actually gonna s I'm gonna start by not talking specifically about Louis, I'm actually gonna start by talking about the dog that had passed before we got Louis, which was our Labrador Sam.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I brought Sam home um in the midst of separation when my eldest son was four.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was like for his fifth birthday as a birthday gift, and we had moved interstate, and it was the first time I had started co-parenting.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So my son was spending time at his dad's.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um that was a very challenging relationship that I now can describe as one that was filled with domestic violence and coercive control.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: The time I just thought it was a challenging breakup and a challenging um relationship as a whole.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, so Sam was the first dog that I would have by my side, especially on those nights I would come home from work and the house was empty, and it was really hard.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard to kind of go from being in a family unit to being just with my son to then just being on my own.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so when I think about the relationship I built with that dog, it was this level of home and trust and safety because there were no questions.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how hard the day was, he didn't judge me, he was there, he was always up for a cuddle.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um he also gave me purpose.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think on the days where you don't want to get out of bed, but you have to feed the dog, you have to walk the dog, or the dog just like barks until you get up, sort of thing.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can an animal can really get you out of a rush in a way that they rely on you but provide this beautiful unconditional love.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting when I losing Sam was really hard.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: We lost him to cancer, and um it was just devastating because he had held me in a way through another really, really challenging time.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess to then fast forward to Louie and my understanding because of the training I've done, I now understand the science behind it all.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I understand how the nervous system works, I understand how the hormones and chemicals in our brains work when we increase all those happy hormones and we decrease all those stress hormones when we're with an a calming animal.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think take the science aside and just going back to intuition, that gut instinct, I watch people their shoulders drop, or they especially like in the breathwork settings that we have.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, people walk in the door, they've never done breathwork before, or they've never met me before, they've just decided to take a punt and just come along, and they're nervous because they don't know what's coming, or they're nervous because they've done breathwork and they know what could come.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they're like, whoa, okay, I don't know if I want to be here, I'm here anyway.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then they see Louie and he greets them, he greets everyone.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: He like does this thing where he just everyone that walks in the door gets a little hello from Louis and he sits at their feet and waits for a pat.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter how distracted you are, if you're get getting rid of issues or you're asking questions, he's just like, um, hello, I'm here.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he just softens everyone in this beautiful way.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope I've answered your question.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was a bit of a waffly answer to a waffly question.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing about beautiful Sam.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that story.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I said, for lots of clients and their children, an animal is a real anchor, I think, for for challenging times.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I even know our family, you know, we uh we had to euthanase one of our old cats coming up two years ago, and none of us expected the grief that he was.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: None of us expected, and and it was Elliot, my my youngest, who said he was he was my constant he was my he was my therapy cat.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, I think a lot of listeners will understand that that level of exploration.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what about breath work?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: What about breath work as a tool for processing or shifting the deeper stuff?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, sometimes you walk into a breath work space and you're just like, I don't really want to be here, but I'm here.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um my breath work trainer, um, so the gentleman that taught me so much of what I know, um, he has a saying where he always says, You don't always get what you want, but you always get what you need when you breathe.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I remind myself of that when I walk in with an agenda that never goes to plan.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wish I had breath work at so many other stages of my life.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's probably elements of it that I had that helped me survive.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think where our bodies are so incredible, and we can get we can often get really angry at ourselves when we reflect back on a time where we're like, oh, why did I freeze or why did I do this or why did I say that or whatever else, but our bodies are incredible at protecting us in in the ways that we do.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And what I really love about being able to bring breath work to people and and having it as a daily practice for myself is that I carry it with me every day, and when people come in, they don't have to have anything, like they don't have to have prior experience, whatever's happening in the body, be it um injury, illness, whatever else, like you can just you work with what you've got and you can do it in any capacity, it's very um friendly to all abilities and all stages of life, all stages of grief, heartache, um, joy, all stages of everything.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, one of the things I love about it, it's quite funny.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I watched a comedian the other day that was like she was talking to people in the front row of her um stage show, and one of the people one of the women was like, I'm a breathwork disorder, and she's like, Oh, you pay people pay you like what?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like the whole thing was hilarious to me because I I get that, I totally get that.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: People like, what do you mean people pay you to tell them how to breathe?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, but trust me, like it's not just how we breathe every day, and it can take you to a place where you can experience things you maybe have never thought to experience before, um, and let go of things that you've been holding on to for a really long time.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's so powerful.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I could go on about it for for ages, but I'm sure you've got some more questions.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I do have more questions.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think and I think the greatest the greatest thing about breath work is you know, just experience it, try it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for everybody for sure, but everybody can do it, which is something that you touched on in your explanation, right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: We all have access to it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty easy access, actually, because we all breathe.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then yeah, taking it next level with a facilitator is a whole other uh experience.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Let's shift into a little bit more divorce separation specific uh questioning.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um where do you and you've probably touched on this a little bit, we've touched on it in conversation already.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where does that nervous system regulation fit into all the practical stuff of divorce?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's all the finances, there's the negotiations, logistics, all the legal stuff.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know with my clients where it fits, but I'm really interested to know from your perspective, where does that regulation, whether it's breath work or other ways of regulating, where do you think that fits?
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's in a few different places.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the first thing that comes to mind for me is that feeling of coming home to yourself, uh, regardless of how long the relationship is or was, um, regardless of how old you were when the relationship started, because we know that different life stages bring a different form of evolution post the end of something, the grief of something.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a real power in being able to come home to yourself, to know yourself, to trust that you, as an individual entity, can do the thing and can take that next step forward on your own.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and being able again, going back to what I was saying about breath work, how we carry it with us, you don't need anything.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can bring yourself to a place in yourself by yourself, utilising your body and your tools.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think from that empowerment perspective, that's that's incredibly important.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's probably not what people are thinking about if they choose to do breath work and utilize it, but it is something that will come in time.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I believe so.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: From a nervous system regulation perspective, I often think about it when it comes to separation and divorce in two different ways.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: There is one the heightened stress of divorce and separation as a whole.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: There is the element of the emotional element of it, but then there's the there's the admin.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much admin.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so again to be able to get back into your body, be able to at times separate emotion from admin, because there's paperwork and things that just need to be done and decisions that need to be made, and it can be really challenging to not I try not to say this flippantly, to not be emotional about said admin decision.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I also say that from someone who's been through separation that was very violent.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the level of detail in admin was even more so because of you know um you know other legal matters and whatever.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: A whole heap of stuff that comes with that, and like tracking paperwork and tracking communication and all of that sort of stuff, in and amongst like just trying to see the finances and um details for children and whatever else.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yes, so emotion definitely, and but I think the most important part and what I love seeing in clients is when they come home to themselves and they realise they have this power and it is incredible, and they carry it with them every day, and they can tune back into it and they can start understanding how they want to move forward.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's pretty amazing.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I really love that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Coming home to yourself is language that I use podcast listeners will be really familiar with that because I use it a lot, um, but not in that specific context.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for sharing that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask you next about parenting.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And parent we could probably just have spoken about parenting.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask you specifically about parenting with a lived survivor experience.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I yeah, I I guess for listeners who don't know me or don't know my story, um, I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse and incest.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I speak very openly about this.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to know more about my story, just Google my name, find the thing, you'll find the thing.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've spoken many times.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'll pop links in the show notes.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've spoken many times about my story in lots of different ways.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot lots of ways to access my story and my lived experience, depending on what you're curious about and what would like to know.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but putting that on the table when you have a lived experience of childhood trauma, and then you become a parent, it knocks you in a way that you have no idea that's coming.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is challenging enough to have a child, um, but for me, the things that it brought up were quite significant.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I've written about this.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'll make sure that I share the um there was a piece that I wrote from Mama Mia around parenting when you have experienced child sexual abuse.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it can be incredibly challenging.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're carrying a lot of our own stuff, and we see the world through a lens that is there's no rose coloured glasses, like there's just none.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost the opposite like everyone, everyone's a bit tainted.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so again, coming back to that place.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Where you understand yourself and why you do and say the things you say, and empowering yourself with the parenting and the language to be able to create the safety that you want for your family and your children whilst honouring your own safety and needs.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't say that, like I know I said that really briefly, like it was a really easy thing to do, it isn't easy.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are different versions of safety, um, and sometimes we're arguing with children or teenagers who want to go and do things that they don't understand the background as to why we're even more hyper-vigilant.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um world is complicated and um and why I want to make sure that nothing is missed.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So empowering them with language and empowering them with the opportunity to ask questions, but reminding them that there's a level of responsibility that I hold and that I'll always put in place um because it's my job to protect them to whatever extent that I can, because I can't be with them every second of the day.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's hard too, that you can't be with them every second of the day when sometimes you're not wanting the kids every day.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a there's a jewel thing there, isn't it?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus, I want them to be safe every second of the day that my lord is a very long day.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let me reset a reframe.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: As a CSA DV survivor, what have you found the biggest challenges as a parent have been?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of listeners may not have the same lived experience that you have in mind, but they'll have some level of challenge, um, and then they've got to parent these kids, and then they've got a parent solo or co-parent.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking from my own experience, my biggest challenge has been raising boys.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the cop-out that we have in this world still, where it's like, oh, I remember when my kids, my boys were little, and there's a big gap between my two boys, it's seven and a half years, so I experienced this twice when they were born, and when they were little, it's like, oh, I'm so lucky.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Got boys, got nothing to worry about.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wait, what?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, I understand my boys can't get pregnant, my boys are less likely to experience some of the things we know that women and girls experience in this world.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: But wait, isn't it my job to make sure they're not the perpetrators and the harmdoers and the whatever?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are we doing with our boys and our young men?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is going so terribly wrong?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many of them that are causing harm.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that infuriated me when my boys were younger and still does to this day, um, because we have such a skewed misogynistic approach to parenting and how we protect young people and the expectations of boys and girls and whatever else.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my biggest challenge.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not only like to be abused by a family member, so not only carrying that level of how do I make sure that my boys are not like the other family members that we have, like it's it's you know, we pass on so many traits to our family members without even realizing it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um the biggest challenge is making sure that my boys grow up to be safe men and to also call them on their stuff while staying aligned with my values.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That has actually been incredibly challenging, um, and I've had very heated conversations with both of the boys when they have said something or done something that I have said to them, I will support you, but I not necessarily I don't necessarily agree with you, and I'm going to hold you accountable to this.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the response has kind of been, well, but aren't you my mum?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And aren't you supposed to love me unconditionally?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I am, and I love you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with accountability for your role in the world, your role in society, and how you impact other people.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a parent, it is incredibly challenging, and we see this all the time, it is so hard to find that balance between your values and you know what you believe to be right, whilst also loving this child unconditionally.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um it yeah, that they have been big challenges for me, especially because I work in the advocacy space.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I speak up publicly about a lot of things, um, and I can't control what my boys do out in the world.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that frightens me sometimes.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think boys generally, you're speaking about your boys, but I think globally we can speak about our boys and our young men as a community, as a society.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all got responsibilities, yes, with our own biological children, but also with our collective children and calling them out on their bullshit or whatever it is.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, don't get me wrong, kids they come out with some doozies and things that I can challenge you with.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: But that has been the biggest one.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I the integrity of being able to do the work that I do and not sugarcoat when they have made mistakes, um, has been really hard.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask you too, a little more specifically, how as parents do we talk to our own kids about their own safety without transferring our feel or ourselves onto them?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when there's been a challenging relationship, say, between me, and this is not my lived experience, but between me and the other parent.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: How how do we how do we juggle that so we're educating, empowering, teaching our own kids about their their safety in all the ways without tipping them into fear, without overlaying our own stuff and uh I've always leaned into the autonomy piece and the intuition piece.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So since the kids were really little, um I have really empowered them to know their body.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, that feeling in your tummy, tell me more about that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, what's going on there and um what do you think?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me more about that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Julie.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that question around or if an emotion is verbalized, it's like, okay, tell me where that sits in your body.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are your hands a bit sweaty?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: How's your heart feeling?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: How's your breath feeling?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are you hot?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Are you cold?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So on and so forth.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And really helping them understand how their body feels.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um because kids, humans, people, know.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: We know, like we know when someone walks past us and we kind of go, oh, that like, or they send in a bit like we're in proximity of someone, or we're in a group setting, and you feel the mood shift, and you go, ooh, do I want to be part of this?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever is collectively starting to build here.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and like I refer to that setting because I refer to teen, like I'm thinking about teenagers, um, versus little kids in other settings.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so without having to go into like you know, the whole strange danger thing is is a like doesn't it not relevant, doesn't work, doesn't make sense.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I understand why it existed, but it just wasn't very helpful.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but being able to help my boys understand that I'm always gonna back them as well because sometimes they would feel something or sense something and they wouldn't really know how to articulate it, and they were trying not to be rude or they were trying not to do XYZ.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but in the end, like I had to be like, I could see that something was happening, so I had to be like, hey, why don't we stand over here or physically shield them or whatever else?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes we have had have to advocate for children and young people when they are not in a position to do that for themselves.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So before the conversations, before the setting the rules and the boundaries and blah blah blah blah, like helping them understand who they are and how they feel, um, and then backing them in those decisions and those feelings, I think is very important.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as you were saying, like if you've got if you're co-parenting and you've got a parent, a co-parent that isn't like that, but that's really hard.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's just yet another thing that's really hard about co-parenting.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, we're talking about something that's really important, but so is nutrition and what they eat there or what like their bedtime schedule is and blah blah blah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know, that lack of control is is challenging.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um but again just reinforcing the things that are important to you in your setting, in your household, um, and reminding your children that there's always a place to come to if something doesn't quite feel right to be able to verbalise that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and verbalizing that that feeling that they have is really important, and if they can't and I guess giving them language and allowing them space for them to use word their words to describe what's happening in their body.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they can't do that with their other parent, there's always space to do it and unpack when they're with you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um was the next question?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, see, I forget when I'm interviewing and get so into the conversation that I'm having.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, people.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about someone who's not a parent.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: So for someone who isn't a parent or survivor, but just going through the hard season that is separation, divorce, healing afterwards.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why should they care about any of this?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Breath work, healing, conversation.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you are at a stage in your life where you are experiencing what I would class as the grief of something ending, I encourage you to empower yourself with as many beautiful things that you can access to support yourself.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: I call it scaffolding.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um do I.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: We must have trained with the same teacher.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love the word scaffolding.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I refer to it in regards to trauma survivors, um, I'll often say, you know, you might have a psychologist and you might have, you know, this person, but in that scaffolding will be your best friend, will be maybe your personal trainer or the gym you go to, will potentially be your favourite restaurant or your barista who makes the best coffee.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and people are like, what do you mean?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not part of the and I'm like, it is part of the scaffolding because that person that's like if you go to the same cafe every morning on your way to work or whatever else, that person, that interaction that you're having forms part of your community, forms part of that that that structure that's keeping you upright.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the reason I love the the framing of scaffolding, um I once had a client that was really struggling with just feeling like she was about like she was just tearing herself down, and that's what she felt like.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: She was she felt like everything that she had was really toxic and that it all needed to be gone.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, the reason I use the word scaffolding is I would love you to reframe that thought and to see yourself as a beautiful heritage-listed building.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh, what do you mean?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, the first thing we would do if you if you know we needed to repair is we would build scaffolding around you and we would find all the different types of experts to do the thing.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, using those examples of scaffolding and people, but I'm like, someone has to delicately take away certain things so we can add to those things, but that has to be done with such care, and it has to be done with patience, and sometimes we don't always get it right, so we have to be really slow in how we do things, we don't want to destroy everything we've ever had.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: We want to maintain that because you are one of a kind and we never want to lose you.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And she just bursts into tears and she's like, I've never thought about it.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yes, that is it, like that's what I want everyone to know.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: There is only one of you.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you are if we're you know using that analogy of a heritage-listed building, so let's take some care and let's get the right people in place.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And let's say, for example, the psychologist or whatever, they might be there for a certain period of time, but they may not be there forever.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: When you are in your stage of newness and joy and whatever else, that's when the florist is there and the last coats of little detail gold and blah blah blah, like that's where we're at later.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: But at the beginning, where we're doing foundational work, like there's complete a completely different team in place.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I I go on about that to bring us back to things like breath work, nervous system regulation, journaling, outer nature, all of that stuff.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and coaching and other things, like in regards to support, because sometimes you don't need a psych, sometimes you need a coach, sometimes the coach isn't the right setting because of the stage you're in, so you get other support.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes you need to move your body versus talking through it.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes you need to write.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's different every time, so that's why the scaffolding and the team are so important.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I joke about us having trained with the same person, and yes, we did.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: One part, one part of your training, one part of my training, same person.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think that scaffolding concept comes from there.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it comes in.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I and I talk about exactly the same thing, you know, who do you need?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it is a big cry or a big release, and that's part of your scaffolding.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I love that concept of there, I got sort of goosebumps and a big tear.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love every time I share it, like people are like, oh my god, and it's so beautiful because when you think about it, gosh, we are, we all, each and every one of us.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, unique heritage listed, beautiful building, and some of the bits you know that aren't quite fitting anymore after a separation, divorce, or a really big life-challenging event.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or like that whole wing that you installed because you thought it was a good idea.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: In the 1980s.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that whole bedroom that we now no longer need.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Caroline, is there anything about your work or your story that maybe we haven't touched on or that you wish more people asked you, or maybe didn't ask you?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is there something else that you would like to bring into the conversation?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I think what's really beautiful about this stage of life that I'm in, um, and we were talking about it briefly before we started recording, was I have just I've lived many, many lives.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I call them costume changes, I have done so many different things, and um you know, people will like listen to this and find me in this context.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: They may have heard of me before in a completely different context, but I think what's really beautiful about that is that I've taken and carried all of my lived experience to where I am today, and I work in lived experience, I I utilise it um for my advocacy, and obviously um you know the work that I do with large organizations, and you know, we're changing things with government at the moment, we're doing some really big things, but lived experience is for is everyone, like you don't have to have bad things happen to you to have lived experience, so we all have lived experience.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um I want people to remember that that everything that you have done is part of your lived experience, and though there's days where you look back on that relationship or this point in time, and you think I wish I hadn't have said yes to this or done this or whatever else, and and I I totally get that as someone who was married really young and separated and whatever else, um but I also know that I wouldn't be the person I am today without my lived experience, and I honour all those versions of myself and carry them with me so I can continue to do the work that I do.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And occasionally, like today, I talk about the fact that I've been married before and that I've been divorced and some of the challenges that I've had because it's relevant to what we're talking about, but then a lot of people don't know that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people don't know that I've been married before or whatever else, it's just about carrying the lived experience and utilising it whenever you need, and so that's probably all that I would want people to know or remember is there are many versions of you and people that know you in lots of different ways.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so embrace that, and maybe it's time for a new kind of coat of paint and a new costume change or whatever we're gonna call it.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's really exciting because you get to kind of write it yourself and do it and whatever comes next.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love, love, love it, and I think that's a beautiful place for us to um finish this conversation.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we could keep talking for hours.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned your book.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell us a little bit about it and where people can find a connect with you, and I'll drop all those links in the show notes.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so my memoir is called More Than One Thing Can Be True.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is about my lived experience of childhood trauma.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is also it's kind of part research, part self-help, part bit of everything.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's my way of sharing that more than one thing can be true and the duality of what is lived experience at the time whilst other people are seeing a completely different version from their lens.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's been helpful to a lot of people in a lot of different ways.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't necessarily have to have had experience just like mine to gain something from it.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's available on my website, which is Carolyn Brunini.com.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if you purchase it through there, you get a signed copy.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's also on Audible.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I narrate it on Audible, so people are like, I'm gonna listen to your book, and then they're like on the plane, I'm like, don't do that, it's just a terrible idea.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, and you probably will cry, and that's okay.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then in regards to coaching, breath work, all that sort of stuff, definitely all available on my website.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Most active on socials on Instagram, so that's kind of where I spend most of my time.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Occasionally do something on LinkedIn when I remember.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm pretty easy to find.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're Melbourne-based, Louie and I host Breathwork monthly.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we also do work with organizations.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've been listening to this going, oh my goodness, my team would love that, we would love to come visit you, share some Louis love.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you your team would love that.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Caroline, thank you so much for sharing all of your time, experience, wisdom with us, and thanks, Louie, and thanks Lola, Louis's little sister.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's Louis and there's Lola.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to all of you for hanging out with us on the podcast today.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a great conversation.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you to you listeners for being here.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you've learned something from the conversation between North Carolina and I.