Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 78. RFP Crossover Event with the Beers and Bible Podcast - The Sufficiency of Scripture

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78. RFP Crossover Event with the Beers and Bible Podcast - The Sufficiency of Scripture · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
I do not mean to be mean, I do mean to be mad.
0:05
Those that criticize this kind of preaching.
0:07
They don't like Authority. If you ain't got the King James,
0:11
you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James, you don't
0:14
have a Bible. And it be surprised.
0:19
Then don't go to sleep. Well, I'm talking.
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Hey, hey, hey, don't, don't don't you lay your head but I'm
0:24
I'm important. I'm somebody, I love you.
0:27
You know, I love you. And I convince you, I love you.
0:30
You better said, you better not your hideous or come up with her
0:33
to stay away? Can you listen to me?
0:39
I still believe if you have cold day in Hell, before I get my
0:41
down with Norman, I'm a preacher.
0:54
When you got dressed today, you dressed deity.
1:01
This is the for Freedom podcast, a podcast that is part of the
1:05
RFP Network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the
1:09
spiritual abuse of legalism. Now, here are your hosts, John
1:13
hollifield and James safe for it and so fundamentalism is
1:20
designed to unpack. The idea of authority from
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scripture. The problem with that is that
1:25
that's not the defining principle in Scripture.
1:28
It is a part of the defining principle in.
1:31
Scripture is love. I don't want to give people just
2:14
a list of things they can start doing differently until they
2:17
have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those
2:20
things differently. But I think bitterness is
2:29
different from her. I would say that hurt or even
2:33
abuse does not have to result in bitterness, I've never been on
2:41
this end. Usually I'm the one hitting
2:42
record and Michael's. The one that sees all I've named
2:47
her Becky though for the record. That's not a lot was Betsy
2:51
Betsy, that's right, it's Betsy. Betsy tells us when the start
2:55
that's right, that's right. Welcome guys to the for Freedom
3:00
podcast and we are we are still continuing on with the RFP
3:04
crossover event of the season of the year.
3:08
However, we say that Century. Jaws is Century.
3:12
Let's go, baby. This is bigger than DC or
3:15
Marvel. This is the biggest crossover
3:18
multiples of Madness woman. And so this is exciting time for
3:23
us and we were glad to have Anthony and Michael from the
3:28
beers and Bible podcast with us on this evening.
3:38
What kind of shallow person you want to become recovering from
3:42
fundamentalism or something? They're everywhere.
3:47
Nothing's been said, well, you just stupid to begin with if
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there's such a word you're stupid, or now don't get flooded
3:55
that, like us and all you flubbed up.
3:58
People your come on guys. How are you doing man?
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I'm good. Yeah we're rocking and rolling.
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We're ready. We're excited.
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Yeah so as we get started today and we're just going to jump
4:15
right into it Again, I hope you guys have registered for the
4:20
meet up coming up next week and so we will be heading to
4:24
Danville. Virginia got a great lineup for
4:26
that. We're all for going to be there
4:28
and so hopefully you can join us.
4:30
And so we're doing this series to help all of our listeners.
4:34
Get to know who some of the other network hosts are.
4:36
And so Anthony Michael tell us about who you are and how your
4:40
podcast of beers and Bible came to be so Anthony and I met while
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we were on staff. At a large, Southern Baptist
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Church here in North Georgia and we met in early 2018 and over
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the course of about a year or so became really good friends work
4:59
very closely together. I've obviously, really good
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friends, I think, Anthony is probably my best friend and so,
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you know we were sitting in our office one day, our office is
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kind of separate from the rest of the staff for reasons.
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I don't really understand but whatever and Heathens away.
5:17
That's what I think that's what it is.
5:19
And so we're sitting there, we're kind of getting burned out
5:21
is that summer time where you're like in summer camp and bbs's
5:25
and we're coming out of the coming off of that and I look
5:27
over at anything. I'm like, man, we need to do
5:29
something or I'm gonna lose my mind and so we kind of like just
5:32
kind of pitch couple ideas back and forth and I go.
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What do we do a podcast? Because we both like we both
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love Jesus. What else do we like?
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And we realized that we both like beer and so the beers and
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Bible podcast was born and what we do is pretty much every every
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week we will review a beer, right?
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It talk about it, not that we know anything about beer really,
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but we will review it and suggested or maybe not
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suggesting that we jump into a bible discussion or theological
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or After discussion and we've been doing that now for just
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over three years. So yeah we are no y'all started
6:19
by y'all had a voice changer over you.
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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So when we started we were still on staff at that church.
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In our church was very like teetotaling are pastors very
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like her the pastor there was a very anti alcohol consumption or
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anything like that and so we were like, well we don't want to
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create any unnecessary. Ian, we don't want to create any
6:41
unnecessary drama. And so, we just like, came up
6:44
with a pseudo names and put a voice modulators on our voices.
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And then about, I don't know, a year and a half ago, or so
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decided to drop all that and come out and be out in the open.
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And here we are which for the record when we did that neither
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me nor Michael were on staff at that church anymore.
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So yeah we had all we already left.
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So Yeah. That's that's the like really
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fast version of our story. We have it, we have it.
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We have an episode of, like, the whole story of, like how we met
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our first day working together, which was fun.
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And then I try to kill me with a drill.
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Yeah, it was great. And then, you know, how we came
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up with the podcasters, we have an episode back in.
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I don't even remember how long ago scroll through it.
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Somewhere in March of 2021, we tell a very different Detailed
7:40
story of what Michael just told, and it was, you know, it was it
7:47
to, to kind of add on to what he said.
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They're like, the church was definitely teetotaling, but
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there was no like, written requirement of you had to sign a
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document saying, you wouldn't. And so, you know, we felt that
8:05
in our hearts, we were still maintaining our integrity
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because we wanted to have these discussions.
8:10
Questions. We wanted to have some kind of,
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I guess, Bridge, you know, I don't know if a really better
8:16
way to say it but like a bridge to a lost and dying world.
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And, and you know, I thought back to, I think one of the
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things that I mentioned that I thought back to when we and
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Michael, we're talking about, this was when I was in college,
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a friend of mine was in seminary and he had to buy a necessity
8:34
had to get a job. Well he ended up bartending in
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seminary. He was a bartender.
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ER at a local restaurant and, you know, he talked to a couple
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of professors and like, hey, I've got this job as the only
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job I can find, is there a problem with this and they said,
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well, you're not drinking alcohol so I guess there's not.
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And so through his Seminary days he actually talks about and he
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me and him had a lot of discussions about how he was
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able to share the gospel with people while bartending and so
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that thought had always kind of rolled in the back of my mind.
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Really from from back in the day.
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Early 2000s and hearing his stories of going through that.
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And then that's kind of what I guess you roll all that together
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and then into the discussion that Michael and I are having
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almost 20 years later. And I'm like, you know what, a
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better way to try to reach out and give the gospel to people
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then to do what I mean realistically.
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What Jesus did he sat down with centers and drunkards?
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And you know it doesn't mean that he was a drunkard.
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He was accused of it but he Wasn't.
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And so you know you take that mindset of I'm going to go be
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with the Sinners. Well, you know, there are some
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things that you can that are under the realm of Christian
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Liberty that are not against what scripture teaches.
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And so that was kind of that was kind of a forming thought of
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man, what something that that does fall, under Christian
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Liberty, that we can do, that would help bridge the gap to a
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world that needs to hear the gospel.
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Yeah, and just for our listeners sake, we've covered a lot of Use
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and sort of given like a Biblical balanced position
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instead of the legalistic sort of a, you know, over against
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legalism and what the the subject we have.
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It covered is alcohol, beer. That kind we just, we just have
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it covered it. But just so everybody knows, I
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mean, Anthony, and Michael Do stand on a position that
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drunkenness is a sin. Clearly, I'm scripture and they
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also, I've listened to them talk on other interviews and stuff.
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They have also So very much a sensitivity to those who have
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experienced either addiction or who have family members that
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have. They totally understand that's
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not some kind of crass in-your-face type of attitude
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that these guys have. And and quite honestly I didn't
10:55
really want to have them on the talk about this because I feel
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like that they really enjoy talking about the Bible instead
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of talking about legalism with alcohol because that's normally
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what you guys end up having to talk about your guests on
11:06
another episode. So right I was like you know
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what, they'd rather probably Talk about the Bible for right?
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Yeah, half. It is, it's one of those things
11:17
where because of our podcast, we kind of we're almost kind of
11:21
force just like oh, your beers and Bible.
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Well, you drink beer, okay, let's talk about the, you know,
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so we'll get that will get that through.
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But I would, I would love to talk about the Bible yeah-yeah.
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I spent a lot of time studying it and and it's it's a lot of,
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it's a lot of fun for me. But I also, you know, again I
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think that we can find ways to bring The Bible bring scripture
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to a world in unique ways that maybe other people what?
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And so a podcast that joins, two things that you wouldn't think
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beers and Bible, you know, you wouldn't think about those who
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things being together. But man, if you put those two
12:03
things together, you may be able to talk with people.
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And I've had conversations with folks, because of the podcast
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where they go, that's really weird, you know?
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And and why would you do that? Well, because it's two things
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that I enjoy. Boy, you know the main Crux is
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we're going to talk about the Bible.
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That's what the majority of our podcast is about.
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And, you know, if you go back and just flip through our
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episodes, we've done Systematic Theology, studies, we've walked
12:32
through books of the Bible. We've done series.
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We did a series on moment where we walk through Lamentations,
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but we talked, you know, through what it means to lament
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biblically, you know, how do we do this, because it's things the
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the, I guess the conversations that Michael and I always tended
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to have in our office was there, were there really the to me the
12:52
most meaningful conversations, where man, how do we deal with
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this hard part of the Christian Life and if you don't go back to
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scripture with something hard in your life, then then you're
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you're just throwing away the foundation of where you should
13:07
be basing everything on and so that a, you know, taking taking
13:13
something hard and saying ah, Alright, this is really hard.
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How do I deal with this? And then saying, alright, the
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first place I'm going to start is scripture.
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What does Scripture say about this hard thing?
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And then really digging in and really seeing what scripture
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says about that if you're not doing that from the very
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beginning? Then then you're you're starting
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on a loose foundation, in my opinion.
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Yeah, and you guys you guys are not shallow.
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That's one of the things I appreciate because like you, you
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you go deep in some areas and you, you linger, like you guys
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walked verse by verse through Philippians 2, did you get in?
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Yeah, through Philippians. But you also do things in like
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you said, you've also walked through Systematic Theology.
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And so for thinking about, this is what we are sort of getting
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into what we want to talk about. We think about theology, there's
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a lot of people doing theology out there.
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There's a lot of people Trying to get people to listen to them.
14:07
Do Theology. And there's a lot of bad
14:10
theology out there there is. And if we think of people that
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are coming out of situations of church hurt or say legalism, one
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of the things that they that is really struggling.
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Is like, how do I know what is good?
14:26
Theology. You know, I feel like this was
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wrong. Well, what else was?
14:30
I taught that was wrong and sort of like it can be almost a
14:33
confusing and and sort of like Eating time of like what how do
14:38
I know? So, you know beers and Bible
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Bible is obviously very important to what you guys do.
14:48
So how important is a view of the Bible?
14:53
To sound theology. I mean, I'd say it's the
14:57
foundation. It's you can't you can't put
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anything else under it, if if scripture with scripture is not
15:06
inerrant and if scripture is not sufficient, then there's there's
15:12
I mean you're building, you're starting your foundation with
15:14
sand instead of rock or solid something, something
15:18
foundational. And and when you when you do
15:24
that you you tend to lead off into things like legalism you
15:29
tend to go into things and you know the opposite of legalism is
15:33
antinomianism that's against the law.
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And and so you end up with this like one side that says do
15:42
whatever you want Grace is going to cover you then you end up
15:44
with this other side that says if you don't do every jot and
15:48
Tittle of the law then you're basically not a believer.
15:52
And I know for me personally and and, and I would think Michael
15:58
would agree with this. The extreme is never the answer.
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And so you have to come to a place of, it's going to sound
16:07
totally like Buddhist. But a center, you have to come
16:10
to a center point and it's a thing that says, yes, there's
16:14
Grace and I'm grateful for grace and I'm so thankful for God's
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grace, and mercy in my life. And yes, there's law and I need
16:22
to try to live my life is best. I can to God's standard which is
16:27
to be holy. I mean, first Peter he tells us
16:29
to be holy because he's holy, it's a repetition of Leviticus.
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We're supposed to do that. So you know, if the law is what
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God gave us a try to give us a inclination toward Holiness.
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And that's the standard. God is the ultimate standard of
16:44
perfection. That perfectly fulfilled.
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The law and you're just don't really care.
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What happens over here on the other side.
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Where's the middle? The middle ground is, how can I
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find balance while trying to live in accordance to God's law
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show grace? And mercy live to show grace and
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mercy in my life. And if that Foundation is not
17:04
based in scripture from the beginning to me, you're on a
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faulty Foundation. Michael.
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You want to add something to that?
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No, I think you nailed it. No, really hot.
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Anthony like is so theologically deep, like a lot of times I'll
17:23
just sit here and listen to him talk and then he'll get to an
17:26
end of a statement. And I'm like, do I need to sad
17:28
anything? And I don't a lot of times I
17:31
don't, they're just not, I think you you nailed it there.
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Yeah I thought that was really good and we're very well said,
17:40
very well, articulated better than I probably could have
17:42
articulated as well and what you did say, you're the oldest among
17:47
all four of us. So with age comes the user, we
17:51
do we do and so we're glad to do that but as we think through
17:55
this and as we begin to process, the sufficiency of scripture and
17:59
what it is in our life. We begin to really begin to see
18:05
people who have Groups of people not just a single person but
18:08
groups of people that have our way out there in left field or
18:12
maybe not even way out there in left field maybe they're just a
18:15
little off on some areas of scripture, maybe some first or
18:20
secondary issues. And so when those things begin
18:23
to arise, what are some warning signs, what are some things that
18:27
we began to really begin to see the first thing that goes away
18:31
in the error when bad theology arises?
18:34
What do you think are some Some of the first issues that they
18:38
begin to give up when bad theology starts to happen.
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I'm a hijack. Question James.
18:43
Okay. Do it.
18:44
Because before we started recording, I think Anthony told
18:48
a story that just really goes perfect with this point about
18:53
Bart, Ehrman. Oh yeah.
18:57
And if he wanted to give that John he could have.
19:00
That's what I was setting the softball up for before you have
19:03
to inject your foot into your mouth.
19:06
Get out of town. Listen here, most in here going.
19:09
I think we already talked about that, but that was before you
19:13
hit record so never mind. No.
19:15
Betsy told us to start man. Oh Betsy, oh man.
19:19
Yeah, so when I was in seminary, you have to write a paper
19:25
basically to graduate. And, and so, I being the, you
19:29
know, 30 something year old 10 years after.
19:34
So I did Seminary Ten Years After I graduated college, I
19:37
took the 10-year break in between there and and and it was
19:42
one of those things where through my studies I just I saw
19:46
a lot of liberalism and and and I'm going to use that word a
19:51
little bit Loosely right here just kind of liberalism in
19:54
general in. What would what would happen is
20:00
these? People would take what I would
20:02
consider a liberal stance. And and so I'm going to I'm just
20:05
going to Paint real quickly. Conservative versus liberal to
20:09
me, is going to be conservatives.
20:11
Going to be Orthodox. The Creed's, the confessions the
20:13
church councils history of the church liberalism is going to be
20:17
something that's trying to overturn that, okay?
20:19
So that's that's kind of where I'm at but I noticed a pattern
20:26
with people who would fall into what I would Define as liberal
20:30
theology or liberal stances on scriptural issues.
20:36
That they really had to devalue scripture to a point to where
20:41
you say, no, that doesn't mean what it clearly means in the
20:46
text and this is where Michael and I often kind of harp on the
20:50
refrains of exegesis vs. Eisegesis.
20:54
Okay and so in my in my Seminary studies, I noticed that and so I
20:58
got to this, this closing paper, and I said, I don't really
21:01
wanted to tackle somebody or something and because of people,
21:06
I've been Involved with I had become acquainted with the
21:09
writings of Bart Ehrman. So I said I want to, I want to
21:13
tackle this and I want to read some Bart, Ehrman material and I
21:15
really want to find out who he is as a Believer.
21:18
And so I went full bore into this, I subscribe to his
21:23
website, got all the Articles coming in on a daily basis,
21:26
tried to read as many of them as I could.
21:28
He writes prolifically for the record and and he just I mean
21:33
he's just a I don't know how he does it and teaches full-time.
21:36
Professorship. But so started reading this
21:39
stuff and I noticed a pattern and I was like, there's no way
21:42
that this pattern is that noticeable.
21:44
And so I started purchasing some of his books and reading them
21:46
for this paper and I read, he's written a lot more than this.
21:51
But I probably read 12 books written by him.
21:55
Cover to cover front to back, and on a range of topics, he's
21:58
real big into forgeries. He's real being into disproving
22:01
the consistency of the New Testament and so on.
22:06
Looks like there's got to be something there is textual.
22:09
Criticism is his thing. That's his like, that's his just
22:12
what he harps on. And so I got to one of his books
22:16
and he talks about what really costs into question his faith.
22:19
Now again, Bart Ehrman is a guy who went to Wheaton College, he
22:24
went to Princeton Theological, Seminary, I wouldn't qualify
22:27
them as really conservative, but they're not quite as bad as like
22:31
a union or somebody like that. And so, but I mean bar Duty Did
22:36
he went to MIT? He went to Moody to yeah.
22:38
And so he studied under Bruce Metzger the guy who is like the
22:43
champion Authority of New Testament documents.
22:46
Yeah I mean this this guy is and and he actually has a book
22:50
co-authored with Bruce Metzger Reddit and so but what I found
22:55
was where he started arguing with guys like Bruce Metzger and
23:00
really arguing with scriptural authorities was he said I can't
23:04
trust scripture. Because I believe it wasn't
23:08
written this way or wasn't written by you know First
23:11
Corinthians wasn't written by Paul and he went into all of
23:14
these things. He has a book called for jury
23:16
encounter forgery. That's really, really
23:17
interesting. If you're into that kind of
23:19
stuff, it's long, and it's not an easy read.
23:22
But it's, he basically breaks down a lot of the New Testament.
23:26
What he believes is forged, really fun stuff.
23:31
But what I found was he was saying one thing out of Inside
23:36
of his mouth. The reason he's leaving
23:38
Christianity is because he can't deal with the problem of evil
23:41
and then two chapters later or even the next chapter.
23:46
He's saying we can't trust scripture because you know, God
23:51
is this evil person. And I'm like, okay.
23:53
So the foundation here is really the problem is scripture.
23:57
And you're using scripture to say that God is evil and you
23:59
can't deal with the problem of evil.
24:01
Which you know, and the the funny thing to me is he does
24:04
that but he doesn't actually ever Deal with the problem of
24:07
evil in any of his books, he never offers a solution.
24:11
He just criticizes the Christian perspective of the problem of
24:15
evil and so because he never offered a solution and he
24:19
continues to harp on things like forgeries and why we can't trust
24:24
the New Testament and different things like that.
24:28
I made the argument that this is really where every sermon is
24:33
grounding his leaving Christianity, he may not be
24:35
admitted. Yet.
24:36
But I believe and I would argue that he is grounding it in the
24:39
insufficiency of scripture and so you know, and and I think
24:44
Bart Ehrman is probably the best test case because this is a guy
24:47
who in his own words doesn't want to leave Christianity but
24:52
because he can't trust scripture finds it hard to believe the
24:55
claims of Christianity and therefore he wants to leave and
24:59
so it's it's not so much a I can point to a Doctrine, you know,
25:06
We'll call it soteriology, you know, if you don't believe X
25:11
about soteriology whoa, you're drifting in the faith.
25:13
I don't think it's so much that whereas it is you start to
25:17
question the interpretations of scripture that have been tied
25:24
tried and tested and true over councils and Creeds and tons of
25:29
church history. It doesn't mean that they got
25:30
it. Exactly right.
25:31
They're not authoritative on the same level of scripture, but we
25:34
can learn so much about. Out scripture from those things
25:39
like that are that are in church history that we can get a solid
25:46
foundation about how we should be interpreting scripture.
25:50
So, what's your yeah? So what you're saying is, we
25:53
shouldn't unhitch, our stuff from the Old Testament.
25:56
That's exactly what I'm saying. Okay?
25:58
Okay, just to making sure that you were we're on the right page
26:01
there. Yes, you should build Lee, not
26:03
be unhitching yourself from any Court of scripture, okay?
26:06
Okay okay. Michael what are your thoughts?
26:09
What do you think that the air comes in at when bad theology
26:13
begins to arrest? Well, I mean Anthony again.
26:20
Had a lot of good insight there but I do think like, when they
26:23
start offering up issues with scripture when people start
26:27
doing that. But they don't offer any kind of
26:29
solution for many or they or they can't, you know, like, like
26:33
the idea of like, the with evil. No religion anywhere really
26:39
offers up a good Answer to that, you know, where's what's the
26:44
source of evil? I mean, Christianity in general,
26:48
like Evil is evil, comes from the devil and Satan and from our
26:55
own sins. So, Like like if they don't
27:00
offer, I feel like if they don't offer up an alternative then
27:05
they're just choosing something to harp on and not, I don't
27:11
know. Have a hard time articulating.
27:13
It Yeah, that would be it. If you can't, if you can't
27:21
provide a counter argument, a lot of times, one of the things
27:24
I'm really big on is logic and if you a lot of times, if you
27:29
can't provide an argument back towards what you're arguing
27:33
against, then it's really, you're just trying to say no
27:38
that's wrong. And you know, in Logic, the
27:42
burden of proof always resides with the person, making the
27:45
positive affirmation, So saying, no, that's wrong, is it
27:51
definitely leaves that burden of proof, but I also think that if
27:55
you're going to say no, that's wrong, then you have to offer a
27:59
positive affirmation of why it's wrong.
28:02
Logically and so, you know, in the case of Bart Ehrman, Bart
28:06
Ehrman just says, I don't like the way scripture is.
28:09
And so I don't like the problem of evil and so I don't like
28:14
Christianity and he just kind of leaves it at that.
28:17
And it doesn't really ever go any further than that.
28:20
And and from what I read, now there maybe I did not read every
28:23
book and so there may be another book that has that that argument
28:26
in it, but I didn't see it in what I read.
28:29
And so that led me to believe that it was really, he's really
28:32
just kind of kicking the can he's saying he's saying this,
28:35
it's the problem of evil when it's not really that.
28:39
It's, I have a problem with scripture and because I can't
28:43
trust scripture, I can't trust what scripture teaches.
28:47
And if I can't trust what scripture teaches, then the the
28:52
slippery slope starts right there.
28:56
I like that. You brought up lodging because I
28:57
feel like that those who Champion sufficiency of
29:01
scripture position a lot of times get misrepresented, maybe
29:07
or attacked that that's not logical.
29:11
You know, those are the ones that are saying like, oh well,
29:14
you know, you don't accept anything outside.
29:17
Of that. And it's not.
29:20
I honestly, I'm convinced that it is a logical position.
29:24
It's a logical position when you look at, you know, you think
29:28
about the work that like, either Michael Krueger's done or
29:33
Stephen Boyce is done, and that's putting out a lot of
29:36
work, we're not illogical and trusting scripture.
29:41
It's not in the logical position and you know, if you look if you
29:43
watched that debate, whether you whatever you think of James
29:46
White or not, watch the debate between him and Bart.
29:49
Ehrman. Oh yeah.
29:51
And when they get to the question-and-answer time he he
29:53
destroys him. Yeah maybe for my perspective
29:56
but logically like you said Bart ehrman's position goes out from
30:01
underneath him. Yeah because then when you start
30:03
talking about any other document of antiquity It's not even a
30:08
comparison when it comes to the Bible.
30:10
Exactly. And and you know, it's, you
30:13
know, Bart Ehrman says, one of the things he touts throughout a
30:16
lot of his books is that there are 300,000 to 400,000 mistakes
30:22
in the New Testament and, and because there are so many
30:25
mistakes, we clearly can't trust that we can't trust it.
30:28
And his thing is, there's there's more variance in the New
30:32
Testament than there are words. And that's what gets a lot of
30:35
people. That's yeah.
30:36
And he says, In ways that a lot of people here and they're like,
30:40
oh my gosh, why would I trust? That, that's crazy because he's
30:44
a Masterwork Bart. Ehrman is a master of words, I
30:47
will you know, I'll give him credit where credit is due.
30:50
But if you think logically about his arguments, they really start
30:56
to fall apart very very quickly because he makes this argument
31:01
of there are 300,000 to 400,000 mistakes in the Bible, okay.
31:07
Okay, so let's define what a mistake is, well in burner man's
31:11
world. A mistake is a comma in the
31:13
wrong place, or a missing comma, or a period in the wrong place.
31:18
Nothing that does any damage to the text nothing.
31:22
That changes. A meaning of a word.
31:24
Are there issues with the New Testament?
31:27
Yes, there are some issues Greek Scholars, have struggled for
31:30
years with with fully understanding the New Testament.
31:34
But because we have someone like And copies of the New Testament
31:39
either in part or in whole, we can piece together with I think
31:44
I heard 11 Greek, New Testament Scholars.
31:47
Say, we can piece together with 99.999 percent accuracy, exactly
31:53
what the text should be. And so, and we know there's
31:57
really no question because we have the ability to put all of
32:01
these fragments into textural critical models inside of these
32:05
computer programs. And, and, and they And they
32:07
basically generate all this stuff out of all of these
32:10
fragments and it's I mean, it's the when you talk about
32:14
Antiquity. I mean, like, the next closest
32:16
thing has like five or ten percent of the available
32:19
knowledge. Yet we trust things like Plato
32:22
and Aristotle and sorry, you know, we trust writings from
32:25
them more than we trust scripture.
32:27
Even though we have multiple e attested documents writings, you
32:34
know, is substantiated on so many different levels.
32:37
That it's I mean it's really laughable to say that you don't
32:42
have an accurate representation of the New Testament.
32:44
Yeah and so when we can trust that then we go to it.
32:49
Mmm. And we let it speak for itself.
32:51
So when you come to passages like Psalm 19 or Psalm 119, You
32:58
know, we gather doctrines that this is what God's given us the
33:05
Revelation that he's chose to reveal to us within scripture
33:10
that has been preserved. Its sufficient.
33:14
It's enough. Yes, And if if you, if you don't
33:20
believe it is then you don't believe the words of scripture
33:24
itself. And and this is, I think, you
33:27
know, going back to the logic thing.
33:28
This is where people have a problem with Isaac.
33:30
Well, why should we trust scripture?
33:32
Because scripture says we should trust.
33:33
You're well, that's circular logic, you know?
33:36
Okay, well, it's circular logic. All right, well, what else are
33:39
we going to trust? What else are we going to put it
33:42
on? You know, where is your logic to
33:46
say that we shouldn't Trust? Scripture because scripture
33:48
says, we can trust it. What's your argument against
33:51
that circular logic other than its circular logic?
33:56
Yeah, I like the old Greg bahnsen debate, where he's
34:00
debating The Atheist and the in the question-and-answer time he
34:06
asked him, he said the guy was accusing him of circular
34:09
reasoning. And he said, so what are you
34:11
trusting in? Like where do you come to that
34:14
determination? Eventually the guy said the laws
34:16
of logic He said well where did you get the laws of logic from?
34:20
Yeah. And what he basically back the
34:23
guy into the corner to basically, admit this, he has
34:25
his own presuppositions. Yes.
34:27
He has his own things and he can't sit there and argue for my
34:30
Higher Ground against him, because he's basically got to
34:33
admit that he's coming up with something somewhere.
34:36
Hmm. It's like there's a parable
34:38
somewhere about building your house, on the rock, versus
34:41
building it on the sand, and I Think Jesus talked about that
34:44
somewhere. Yeah, yeah.
34:47
So we've talked about textual criticism.
34:50
We've talked about Um, the origins of evil.
34:54
And those areas that can cause error.
34:57
Do you think there's any other issues that can cause us to have
35:02
bad theology that are just stand out issues?
35:09
What do you think, Michael? Well, covered a lot of stuff on
35:12
our pot. I guess I think about all the
35:14
different areas we covered. I don't know.
35:20
That's a what I'm thinking is more like a theological issue or
35:24
not, but, like, people who are married to political parties.
35:29
I don't know. If y'all want to talk about,
35:32
that's a rabbit Trail. We try to try to try to try to
35:35
avoid. Yeah, you're you're our guests.
35:37
So, we're, we're at the whims of your answer.
35:40
Oh, gosh. No.
35:41
But like you have people who are will be like, they vote one way
35:45
or another because they Always have and always will and they
35:48
don't like it. It's the same thing.
35:50
They don't they don't do the research themselves to see what
35:52
the people are actually saying. I don't know that maybe be a
35:59
really bad example. Well, I think he may be able to
36:02
articulate it. Much better than me actually.
36:05
Think it's a really good example.
36:08
And here's why I think it's a good example because oftentimes,
36:11
we filter our scripture through our political views, instead of
36:14
our political views through scripture.
36:17
That's good. Let's go.
36:19
You know, we try to say, we should vote X or we should vote
36:22
Y, and then we try to find a scripture to support.
36:27
X or Y, instead of saying here's what scripture teaches,
36:31
scripture, teaches X, so vote X or scripture teaches, why so
36:35
vote. Why, you know, one of the, one
36:40
of the I guess I try to keep myself under control on Twitter,
36:45
but occasionally, I will get a little rambunctious and and
36:49
troll people on purpose and I love finding liberals on on
36:53
Twitter who will say stupid things.
36:57
And not know exactly what they're talking about.
37:00
And, and, you know, I'll just go in and say well, what about
37:03
this? What about that?
37:04
You know, does that really what scripture says, is that really
37:07
what that text says? I don't know if you guys have
37:11
followed him, but there's a guy on, I think it's on Tick-Tock
37:15
called the red pin apologist, and he listens to somebody's
37:20
argument, and then he just takes it apart according to scripture.
37:25
And so, I think it's important. To from from a Christian
37:30
perspective and from a scriptural perspective to number
37:34
one, look at the text, what does the text actually say?
37:39
And then once you know what, the text actually says, then look
37:44
into the history, how would a reader?
37:46
And I think this is part of the problem that we get to when we
37:50
talk about leaving or going into bad theology, we read scripture
37:57
as If scripture was written to 21st century Americans and we
38:04
don't read scripture as it was written to a first-century Jew
38:08
or Gentile. And so, because we think
38:12
scripture is written to us and about us, we take versus like
38:17
second chronicles 7:14 and say, oh if my people, well that's
38:22
obviously Americans who are called by my name or God is
38:25
obviously called Americans will. Of themselves and pray wall,
38:28
obviously Americans need, but need to Humble themselves and
38:31
pray. I will heal their land.
38:32
Obviously God's going to America.
38:34
Wrong. You know?
38:37
And one of, I mean, one of our favorite quotes is, I can do all
38:40
things through reverse taken out of context, so it's good, love
38:45
it. Well, I would say this, is this,
38:48
just my opinion, just my opinion, guys.
38:52
But I think a lot of times the people who struggle with the
38:58
sufficiency of scripture, Struggle because of biblical.
39:02
Illiteracy. Yes.
39:05
Because they don't really have, they don't realize how much the
39:09
Bible actually speaks specifically to things.
39:13
Yeah, and can help things. Yeah.
39:17
Yeah. And even on that point even just
39:19
last week. Yeah.
39:20
Yesterday for when we were recording this, I spoke at our
39:24
church on Psalms 28 and David's, the psalm of praise and lament
39:29
and Thanksgiving. And I It and I was jobless
39:32
challenging the church, put yourself in the situation where
39:35
David would have been at. When he's writing this he's
39:38
probably been chased by Saul right now.
39:41
And he's writing. God Is My Rock.
39:44
Yeah, I said this flamboyant talk.
39:49
He is legitimately saying, God is his only Refuge.
39:53
Yeah. And I tried to put them in that
39:56
mindset of where was this written at in the time period
39:59
that it was written. So they can really understand
40:02
the context of scripture because if we don't, if we don't know
40:05
that we're already going to misinterpret scripture the way
40:09
it's supposed to be red, that's a good point.
40:11
James because you know, we hear stuff on our from our
40:15
perspective, you know, like does the Bible have anything to say
40:17
about trauma? 100%.
40:20
It does. Look at who look at, who wrote
40:22
the Bible? You think about like James
40:25
David. You don't think David
40:26
experienced trauma? Yeah, I mean he was told he was
40:30
given orders by his Superior. Superior Superior officer.
40:36
His King to go out and kill Philistines, and then, mutilate
40:42
the genitalia of their dead bodies.
40:47
You don't think that's traumatizing.
40:49
Yeah. And then you go and read the
40:51
Psalms with that perspective and you can see and actually expects
40:56
find there is some healing salves for trauma.
41:00
In the scriptures. Yeah, yeah.
41:02
I've been made that point John not at not as gruesome as you
41:04
just did but I made that I made that point in Psalms 28.
41:12
The first two verses it talks about.
41:14
He says God if I don't Don't hear your voice.
41:18
I'll be like those that go into the pit and what he's referring
41:22
to a. From what I got out of that was
41:24
gone if I'm not communicating with you, if there's not a
41:27
relationship between me and you my mind's going to begin to
41:30
spiral out of control. Yeah I'm gonna beat again to
41:33
worry where am I in standing with God.
41:37
Hmm. And I said that is exactly
41:39
what's happening with our teenagers these days and that's
41:41
what happened in our world right now because they're nowhere near
41:44
God's voice, they're nowhere near God's word.
41:46
Third. And they're wondering, God,
41:48
where are you? I don't know what to do in my
41:50
life and in that point alone, we can see that David was doing
41:54
with these same issues because he's saying here my supplication
41:58
so that I don't end up like the ones that are going into the
42:00
pit. Yeah, you know, it's funny it's
42:02
coming coming in out of Psalm 27 into song. 28, if you read the
42:07
last verse of Psalm 27 because in Psalm 27, he is absolutely
42:12
fleeing from Saul and these two were probably pinned together.
42:16
And Get to the last verse of Psalm 27 and it says wait for
42:19
the Lord be strong and Let Your Heart.
42:22
Take courage, wait for the Lord. You know, a lot of times we
42:27
think that our troubles and our problems are just, you know, so
42:34
it's spiritual depression, maybe, maybe, just, maybe it's
42:38
just God's saying just wait. Just be patient and watch what
42:42
I'm going to do. Don't try to rush ahead of me.
42:45
Don't try to get yourself into what is the good life and what
42:49
you've defined in your 21st century American context as what
42:52
you think you should have. Maybe just wait and watch what I
42:57
do. Watch How I work because I'm
43:00
going to do something that blows your mind and you know, I can
43:03
tell you time and time again through my life, through the
43:07
people that I've met. I mean, even me meeting and
43:11
becoming friends with some some of my best friends that I know
43:15
Michael. Are people that I met when I
43:18
lived in Georgia for two years and and some people may look at
43:21
that circumstance and go well obviously you know you made a
43:25
mistake you moved up there and it was wrong and it was you
43:28
should have been there, but I can tell you with certainty.
43:31
God put us there. We did.
43:34
What God had called us to do while we were there and then God
43:36
moved us away. And you know that's part of the
43:40
reason that I still to this day and will continue to do this
43:44
podcast with Michael and talk to Michael on a daily basis, I
43:47
would have never met Michael. If it wouldn't have been for
43:50
God, moving in our lives that way but sometimes you just have
43:53
to wait. Sometimes you just have to be
43:55
there and say all right God I'm just going to sit here and just
43:59
wait. And I think David does that a
44:02
lot of times you know, in the Psalms you know there's you read
44:06
Kings and Chronicles which if you're following Along with with
44:08
beers and Bible, we're walking book by book through really the
44:13
entire Bible. Right now, we started Genesis
44:16
and we're on we're, we're probably in Psalms ish when
44:20
this, when this is coming out, but it's as you walk through
44:26
Kings and Chronicles, you read stories about David.
44:28
He could have killed saw, but what did he do?
44:31
He debt because he knew what the law said.
44:35
You don't touch God's anointed. He knew that Saul was God's
44:37
anointed. Wasn't a very good one but he
44:40
knew and so he waited he waited and he said I'm going to let God
44:44
do. And what did God do?
44:46
God delivered him into the kingship through God's way, not
44:49
through, David's way, that's good.
44:52
That's good. What a what a great quick
44:57
example of how the Bible is, you know, to quote Hebrews for
45:04
living and active. Yeah, and asserts that Thoughts.
45:08
And intents of our heart. It's efficient.
45:11
Yes. You know, if that's a halide,
45:13
ion it to heal had died on. That's right.
45:16
What was I'll put my armor got on from Ephesians 6 and do it
45:19
every day. Yeah, John last question.
45:24
Let's toss it up to him. I don't want to say we've
45:26
already covered it. Did we?
45:28
All right. There were good.
45:29
Then we're good. Okay, back it up.
45:30
You can obviously tell that this is being recorded in late at
45:33
night rather than in the morning.
45:36
Yes, we normally In the morning a little bit more fresh.
45:41
Unfortunately, Mike when I have day jobs, yes, we're just past
45:47
her side, we don't do anything, she may not make your own
45:51
schedule. That's right, I've worked in
45:54
churches and I've worked not in churches.
45:56
And, and let me tell you something, I don't envy pastors.
46:02
There are days when I want their schedule, but then there's days
46:04
that I don't want their schedule, because, you know
46:06
what? I've been on the receiving end.
46:08
Phone calls at 2:00 in the morning and, you know, and I
46:12
salute both of you guys because I know what pastors go through.
46:16
And, you know, I may not work in a church today, but I work with
46:20
churches and I've been involved with churches, enough to know
46:25
that the pastor, it is a, is a hard position to be in.
46:29
And, you know, it's our pastor actually, just put out a book on
46:35
burnout, pastoral burnout, and It's there's a reason that the
46:40
pastorship is one of the leading vocations that has burnout in it
46:46
and it's because of people. And honestly, I mean, it goes
46:50
right along with what we're talking about tonight.
46:51
So many pastors, a lot of times just get so caught up in doing
46:56
things for people and the, the midnight phone calls and the,
47:00
you know, hospital visits and trying to prepare a sermon.
47:03
And all of the work involved with all of that.
47:06
Plus, you know, if you're not In a large church with multiple
47:10
staff members, your pastor is also your Treasurer.
47:12
And is also your plumber. And is also your electrician and
47:15
is also all these other things. And so you end up just giving
47:21
yourself to all these things, and a pastor can lose his way in
47:25
the sufficiency of scripture, he can lose what scripture teaches
47:29
us that we should be. And you know, it say, I love
47:33
this last question. What is the source of theology?
47:36
Will the source of theology is scripture?
47:38
And so many times, even in the pasture, no matter what we're
47:41
doing as Christians, we can let our source of theology become
47:44
who we are or what we do, or what gives us priority in this
47:48
world, instead of what scripture teaches us that we should be.
47:55
Great, love it slowly, and thankful for you guys to come
47:59
on, the we are looking forward to meeting you guys
48:01
face-to-face, and being able to interact with you guys for a
48:05
couple of days, and it's gonna be a great time and looking
48:10
forward to it, I hope our family will be able to join us and our
48:15
friends that we've met through the podcast and just excited
48:19
about the speaking. Thus, the topics that are we
48:22
talked about About the breakout sessions that we're going to be
48:25
a part of, I mean, the whole thing in a, in a two day, period
48:29
is going to be spectacular. And so hopefully, if you haven't
48:32
got your tickets, you'll join us.
48:35
But John, any closing words from you, my friend.
48:38
No, I think there's been some great.
48:40
Thanks said tonight and I think the only thing left to be said,
48:44
yes to God, not the pastor, be the glory, thanks for listening
48:52
to the proofreading lat. Next to buy more content like
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this. Please visit RFP network.org to
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