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Communications Associate: (Musket) Smoke on the Water with Katelyn McArdle · Roast the Post Podcast

0:10
Hey folks,
0:10
this week we have a special guest with us in the virtual
0:14
studio,
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Katelyn McArdle.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Welcome and thank you very much for joining us.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: We're super
0:19
SPEAKER_00: thrilled to have you here.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to be here.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so
0:24
SPEAKER_00: much.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: So, we have a job ad coming to the
0:28
SPEAKER_00: pipe that is in Katelyn's wheelhouse.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: It is in the nonprofit space in the US.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: And
0:34
SPEAKER_00: this week, that means we're going to be digging into this job ad.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds
0:40
like it was written by a Civil War re-enactor with a thesaurus
0:43
and smoke in
0:44
SPEAKER_00: their eyes.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Enter the communications associate for a nonprofit that preserves
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Revolutionary War battlefields in the United States.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: And nothing, says 21st
0:55
Century PR like pedalling the power of place to people who'd
0:59
rather scroll
1:01
SPEAKER_00: their timeline at a taco stand.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: If you want to spin stories about 250 year old
1:06
SPEAKER_00: battles, coordinate events for policy wonks, and turn ad copy into donor
1:11
SPEAKER_00: dollars, this job might be for you.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: But there's a twist.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Social Media?
1:16
SPEAKER_00: It's a
1:17
SPEAKER_00: no-no.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: After reading the job ad, I was left with just one question.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Is this a
1:22
SPEAKER_00: communications role or a time machine with a 403(b) attached?
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Let's find out.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: As usual, we're going to start off with
1:32
SPEAKER_00: the Roasty Profile.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: So, the job title for this position is Communications
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Associate.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: The report-to title is the Director of Communications.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Company size or organization size in this case is 11 to 50 employees.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: The
1:49
SPEAKER_00: industry is nonprofit organizations.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, they acquire and
1:54
SPEAKER_00: preserve land and historical sites in the United States relevant to the
1:59
SPEAKER_00: American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the American Civil War.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Head
2:04
SPEAKER_00: office location for the organization is in Washington DC.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: The job location is
2:11
SPEAKER_00: also in Washington DC.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: The geographical operating area for the organization is
2:16
SPEAKER_00: the United States and the type of job is permanent, exempt and hybrid.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And a note
2:24
for listeners at home,
2:26
exempt in the US means that they are exempt from some
2:30
SPEAKER_00: normal labour protections, like minimum wage.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: And there are a few other
2:35
things:
2:35
overtime pay,
2:36
that federally regulated organizations don't have to
2:40
SPEAKER_00: don't have to really kind of pay attention to.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So this is one of those.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Now, given that this job ad is short.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: short and sweet, it's basically one
2:51
SPEAKER_00: page.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that I'm going to read through the entire thing instead of
2:55
SPEAKER_00: picking out the juiciest bullet points for us to talk about.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: because with
2:59
SPEAKER_00: some other ads that we've looked at in the past, everything kind of ties
3:01
SPEAKER_00: together nicely and it's self-reinforcing.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: So, I think we'd be
3:05
doing ourselves and the folks at home a bit of a disservice if
3:08
we skipped over
3:11
SPEAKER_00: parts of it.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: The structure of the job ad itself, there are two sections.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: First
3:16
SPEAKER_00: section is major duties and responsibilities.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And the second section
3:21
SPEAKER_00: is required knowledge, skills, and experience.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Starting off with major duties and responsibilities, these are all bullet
3:29
SPEAKER_00: points as one might expect with a job ad.
3:33
Proactively generate attention for the trust,
3:36
its programs and initiatives by
3:38
SPEAKER_00: advancing messaging that defines the brand and expands reach and impact.
3:43
and for anyone who is listening to the show for the first time,
3:46
we don't name
3:47
SPEAKER_00: and shame.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: So we don't name the organization while we're talking
3:52
SPEAKER_00: about it and about the job ad.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: So you'll kind of see that I say
3:57
SPEAKER_00: things like the trust or the organization where otherwise you'd
4:01
SPEAKER_00: expect a name to be there.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: It's all by design.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Also, Jen and I don't have
4:05
SPEAKER_00: lawyers, so we're going to skip that ugliness, too.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Next bullet point,
4:10
orchestrate logistics surrounding events to support policy
4:12
department programs
4:15
SPEAKER_00: such as news conferences, grassroots advocacy briefings, and partner
4:18
SPEAKER_00: workshops.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Maintain and fulfill display advertising
4:24
SPEAKER_00: calendar to include ideating copy and visuals that provide timely and
4:28
SPEAKER_00: meaningful updates in worthwhile outlets.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Instill processes for tracking metrics stemming from print and other
4:36
SPEAKER_00: non-digital advertising.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Strengthen the pipeline that converts content consumers
4:41
SPEAKER_00: into donors.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Advance brand building opportunities, including paid media,
4:47
SPEAKER_00: content marketing, sponsorships, and collaborations that introduce new
4:51
SPEAKER_00: audiences to the trust's work.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: coordinate the nomination process for
4:57
the nonprofit prize for history working with publishers and
5:01
authors to solicit
5:02
SPEAKER_00: and verify submissions.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: And a note, this is actually a prize that this
5:07
SPEAKER_00: organization has.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: It's a part of a trust fund and they dole out money from
5:12
SPEAKER_02: it.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: Next bullet point is write and edit
5:16
articles,
5:16
emails,
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columns,
5:18
and articles about trust activities for a variety of
5:22
SPEAKER_00: audiences, outlets, and formats.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Then ensure appropriate and consistent
5:27
SPEAKER_00: use of trust brand and voice and style guide.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: Create and produce physical
5:33
collateral regarding trust initiatives and programs for
5:36
battlefields,
5:37
historic
5:38
sites and museums that are aligned with our mission
5:41
coordinating placement and
5:43
SPEAKER_00: fulfillment.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: So let's break there before we go into the last section.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: This
5:51
SPEAKER_00: was, you know, for me, there were about 10 bullet points in this, and
5:57
SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of detail there.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, it gave you a sense of what the the job is
6:03
going to be about,
6:03
like the big things that you're going to be in charge of,
6:07
SPEAKER_00: which is for some people maybe not the best, for other people great.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: You know,
6:13
it really depends on the kind of person that you are,
6:15
whether you're really
6:17
going to like this level of detail in the job that you're doing
6:19
or whether you
6:21
SPEAKER_00: want a little bit more flexibility and ambiguity.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: But is there anything in here
6:26
either Jen or Katelyn that speaks to you about the duties and
6:28
responsibilities?
6:29
SPEAKER_00: Is there any of the story that's surfacing so far from this?
6:34
Well,
6:34
I would say I it sounded like it's a good overview of the
6:38
programs of the
6:43
SPEAKER_01: nonprofit.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: So, I thought that it had a good indicator of the events portion and
6:47
SPEAKER_01: then the general outreach and communication and also um the the trust
6:53
SPEAKER_01: being able to distribute funds from the trust was an interesting one too.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: So, I
6:57
think that that speaks to their desire to have a reputation
7:01
boost element of
7:02
SPEAKER_01: their organization as well.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: I think when I heard the events portion of the job
7:07
SPEAKER_01: description, it made me wonder if there's potentially a risk that there's
7:14
SPEAKER_01: event logistics and coordination involved in this role.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: There there can
7:18
be that scope creep where that that doesn't really sound like
7:20
communications
7:22
SPEAKER_01: role.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like there's definitely the potential that they would
7:26
have to take on event logistics and that would be very
7:29
challenging for someone
7:31
SPEAKER_01: just seeking a communication specific or marketing role.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: So, I always try to look
7:36
out for that that some of these bullet points sneak in what
7:39
could be other
7:41
SPEAKER_01: functions or specialties in into an otherwise creative role.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: Those were exactly my thoughts, Katelyn.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: I kind of made a note that it feels
7:53
SPEAKER_02: very much like a coordinator type role.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: I think there were only maybe two or
7:58
SPEAKER_02: three bullet points that spoke specifically to like the communications
8:02
SPEAKER_02: work itself.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: A lot of those terms like coordinating and things like that
8:09
SPEAKER_02: just like you said snuck in there.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: So it makes me wonder how much how much,
8:15
like you said,
8:15
creative satisfaction is someone going to get from this role
8:20
if they're going to be spending a lot of time doing
8:22
coordination stuff which is
8:24
also interesting because this is one of the rare roles and I'm
8:26
going to give
8:27
them points for this that notes the reporting structure and so
8:30
it's a comms
8:31
associate reporting into a director of comms...
8:35
which means that that there is
8:37
SPEAKER_02: no manager of comms that's what that tells me.
8:41
SPEAKER_02: And so it does seem like
8:45
SPEAKER_02: this person is going to be doing a lot of the administrative work for the
8:50
SPEAKER_02: director of comms.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if this is a new role.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if this is a backfill
8:54
SPEAKER_02: for an existing role.
8:55
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if maybe they're trying to go lean and
9:02
they're eliminating something else and just trying to do that
9:05
whole like um
9:07
Swiss Army knife into one role....
9:08
because yeah it doesn't seem like a comms
9:11
SPEAKER_02: all the comm's people I know are creative souls and this doesn't seem
9:14
very creative and it feels like this would be an opportunity to
9:16
have a lot of
9:17
SPEAKER_02: fun with a role like this.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: And then my other observation is not so much
9:22
about the job description at this point but whether or not,
9:24
Paul,
9:25
are you planning
9:26
SPEAKER_02: to apply for this role because your beard is looking quite robust
9:33
SPEAKER_02: today.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: I knew you were going to say something about my beard because it's
9:37
been a few days since I've like properly trimmed it and it's
9:40
getting bushy.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: yes.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: No, let's keep on that line where I'm actually going to
9:47
SPEAKER_00: apply for this role and I want to look the part for the interview.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: So, I'm I'm
9:50
SPEAKER_00: growing it out a little bit.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: This is what I thought.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for
9:52
SPEAKER_02: the confirmation.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I had to Google while you were
9:56
SPEAKER_02: talking.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, did people have beards in the Civil War?
9:59
SPEAKER_02: Cuz like I'm
10:00
SPEAKER_02: Canadian.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: I have no no knowledge about any of the the US history.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, they
10:07
SPEAKER_02: did.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: They did.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: You've also never had a beard yourself.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: What stood out for me that I Yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: that I know of?
10:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot of
10:19
SPEAKER_00: stuff that we could talk about the next time.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: Been a beard, had a beard, you know, it's all the same.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: One one thing that stood out for me with this is the branding of the role
10:31
SPEAKER_00: itself.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: And you you kind of touched on it, Jen, where it's like, you know, this
10:35
SPEAKER_00: this role is for communications associate and then it reports to
10:39
SPEAKER_00: director of communications.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: So there's there's departmental fit.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: You know,
10:43
SPEAKER_00: there's this is a straight line.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a communications department.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: In larger
10:48
SPEAKER_00: organizations, communications and marketing are separate.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: In smaller
10:52
SPEAKER_00: organizations, communications and marketing are kind of together.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: The
10:55
SPEAKER_00: roles are blended.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: In some organizations, the distinction doesn't
10:59
SPEAKER_00: matter whatsoever.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: But I also found it interesting that this is an associate
11:05
SPEAKER_00: level job, which I would kind of agree is pegged at kind of a coordinator
11:09
SPEAKER_00: position or coordinator level or a specialist maybe if you're in the
11:14
SPEAKER_00: private sector.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: But the fact that it's a communications associate kind of stood
11:18
SPEAKER_00: out to me.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: Like what are you trying to say by calling this role
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Communications Associate?
11:26
SPEAKER_00: What's the point of that?
11:27
SPEAKER_00: It's not something that
11:28
SPEAKER_00: you run into every single day.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm kind of curious about that, but I
11:32
SPEAKER_00: don't know if we'll get the answer short of, you know, calling in the
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Director and being like, why'd you call this an associate?
11:38
I think what a lot of the bullet points seemed to have in
11:41
common is the need for
11:43
SPEAKER_01: a strong writer.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: So, I wondered if they're trying to combine donor outreach
11:49
with communications where it's actually outreach to prospects
11:54
or people who have
11:55
SPEAKER_01: applied to be considered for the trust.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: And so you would need a strong writer to
12:01
communicate with anyone individually,
12:03
but that's not necessarily,
12:05
I think,
12:06
SPEAKER_01: what a communications associate would expect or would be looking for.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: I think
12:11
SPEAKER_01: they would imagine it's writing e- newswsletters.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: It's writing social media
12:17
SPEAKER_01: copy.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: It's the traditional marketing at a brand level, but not necessarily
12:22
SPEAKER_01: the one-on-one touch points from a relationship management perspective.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: So
12:26
it makes me think that there might not be a department
12:28
especially for the 11 to
12:33
SPEAKER_01: 50 employees sized company.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they don't have a donor like stewardship
12:37
SPEAKER_01: department yet.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And so it could be a hybrid where they're expecting
12:42
SPEAKER_01: communications to play that role in writing to individuals and
12:48
SPEAKER_01: being able to keep track of the story for each prospect.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: you know, what are
12:53
the touch points and the relationships with each one of these
12:56
individuals?
12:57
SPEAKER_01: But
12:58
SPEAKER_01: it sounded like there's marketing outreach and then there's
13:01
communications,
13:02
one-on-one outreach involved in what they're expecting this
13:07
SPEAKER_00: person to do.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: I also wonder too... will
13:12
this...
13:12
given that we're kind of already seeing,
13:14
a little bit,
13:16
some hint of role
13:19
SPEAKER_00: creep in this and you've got questions around that.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: I would also
13:23
wonder if a part of this will bleed into grant writing,
13:28
a little bit,
13:28
because
13:29
SPEAKER_00: the soft skills so far, the experience, it does kind of touch on and
13:33
say,
13:33
"oh you need to be a really strong,
13:35
communicative,
13:35
persuasive writer."
13:37
SPEAKER_00: and when I think about nonprofits especially nonprofits of kind of this
13:42
SPEAKER_00: scale, scope and just where they're at in, you know, what
13:46
they're choosing to do with their mission...
13:48
grants are going to be a part
13:50
of that and if we think too about like,
13:52
okay,
13:52
we're actually buying land for a
13:55
SPEAKER_00: trust to preserve and conserve it.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: That suggests to me that there's going
13:59
to need to be some capital flowing through this place because
14:02
you you don't
14:03
SPEAKER_00: buy up hectares of land with 20 bucks and like a bag of coffee.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, maybe
14:07
SPEAKER_00: you did during the Revolutionary War, but not today.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And there was something too about tracking, like something about pro the
14:15
SPEAKER_02: process for tracking something.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: I started to write the notes, but I can't
14:18
SPEAKER_02: remember what that bullet point said.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: But it is a very
14:24
SPEAKER_02: process-heavy role and I feel like nonprofits are
14:28
notorious for that kind of scope creep where it's like I just
14:33
wear a lot of
14:34
hats,
14:34
you know,
14:35
like somebody started the position as a comm's associate but
14:38
now
14:39
SPEAKER_02: that's not even how they refer to themselves when people ask what they do
14:43
SPEAKER_02: for a living.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting and what you said too, Katelyn, like
14:48
SPEAKER_02: 11 to 50 people, as we know, that could very well be 11 people, right?
14:53
SPEAKER_02: Like just
14:57
SPEAKER_02: because it it's so wide.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: I highly doubt that they have 50 people working
14:59
SPEAKER_02: there.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: It it's going to be more like 11 people.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, like we mentioned
15:04
SPEAKER_02: earlier, just keeping things lean.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
15:08
SPEAKER_00: "Instill processes for tracking metrics stemming from print and other
15:12
SPEAKER_00: non-digital advertising.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Strengthen the pipeline that converts content consumers
15:17
SPEAKER_00: into donors."
15:18
SPEAKER_00: That's what it was.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: It was converting that into
15:22
SPEAKER_02: donors, which is exactly what you mentioned about like fundraising and
15:26
SPEAKER_02: things like that.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: So I very easily you can see this being which goes back to
15:29
SPEAKER_02: why did we name it?
15:31
SPEAKER_02: Why did we didn't why did they name it communications
15:34
SPEAKER_02: associate?
15:37
SPEAKER_02: So far, it's reading to me like almost anything but that.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: so interesting to see what the rest of the job posting's...
15:46
SPEAKER_00: that would that would be a really interesting part of the job too...
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Cracking that nut.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Because they're specifically saying like we want you
15:55
to have some sort of system...
15:57
set of metrics,
15:58
KPIs for tracking return from
16:01
SPEAKER_00: print and non-digital advertising.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, digital stuff?
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Super easy, right?
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Like the
16:06
platforms just give you access to data and metrics whatever
16:07
but,
16:08
yeah,
16:08
print?
16:10
SPEAKER_00: That's challenging.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, you're looking at developing some sort of system
16:16
SPEAKER_00: using like ID or membership codes, maybe QR barcodes.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole bunch of
16:22
stuff that you can do with print,
16:23
but it's like if you think about your if you
16:26
SPEAKER_00: think about your your behavioral analytics um for stuff like this digital
16:33
SPEAKER_00: is kind of a leaky sieve.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: It is not perfect whatsoever.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Print?
16:36
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't
16:37
SPEAKER_00: call that a leaky sieve.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: I'd call that like a bridge with a hole in it or a dam
16:41
SPEAKER_00: with a hole in it.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Like that's even it's even harder to get detailed information.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Print is going to be opting in as well, right?
16:48
SPEAKER_02: like you were going to ask
16:50
SPEAKER_02: people to do an additional step of reporting how you heard about this or
16:54
how you whereas digital is like you said there's a footprint in
16:56
the background,
16:58
anyway,
16:58
that you can track easily but....
17:00
yeah,
17:01
print that's going to be a really,
17:03
SPEAKER_02: like you said, hard nut to crack and is it job is it a comm's job
17:08
SPEAKER_00: that is that doesn't strike me as something that typically rolls up to a
17:11
SPEAKER_00: communications person.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and the same goes for grant writing
17:16
SPEAKER_01: that's very specific, nuanced, It's technical writing more
17:21
SPEAKER_01: than it is brand awareness and at the highest level.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: So, you have to have that
17:29
SPEAKER_01: really specific understanding of where your nonprofit fits into that
17:33
SPEAKER_01: fundraising request and the requirements of any given grant.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think they're
17:38
SPEAKER_01: also on the other side of it.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: If they're issuing out as a trust, you know, they
17:43
are accepting applications very likely for other organizations
17:48
who would like
17:49
SPEAKER_01: funding.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Then if if this person is also responsible for evaluating any of that
17:55
SPEAKER_01: content or those applications, which it sounds like they are,
17:59
SPEAKER_01: they would be assessing that and also communicating back to everyone
18:04
requesting this fund and saying yes or no or asking for more
18:08
questions,
18:08
you
18:09
SPEAKER_01: know.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't... the associate level doesn't seem accurate and
18:14
SPEAKER_01: communications rolling up to communications doesn't seem correct
18:17
SPEAKER_01: either.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, typical challenge that you see in
18:21
SPEAKER_00: small organizations, private sector or nonprofit, right?
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, that role
18:26
SPEAKER_00: creep becomes a thing for a lot of folks.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Let's move on to a subsection
18:31
that is in this part of the job ad and this is going to add a
18:34
little bit more
18:35
SPEAKER_00: flavor to it.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: This subsection is about the role and organization.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: So, it says,
18:40
"The nonprofit,
18:43
the nation's premier historic land preservation nonprofit,
18:47
SPEAKER_00: seeks a communications associate to build awareness of the trust, its
18:50
mission,
18:51
programs,
18:52
and impact using earned,
18:54
owned,
18:55
and paid media,
18:56
strategic
18:57
partnerships,
18:58
advantageous placements,
18:59
and other innovative outreach avenues.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: You will introduce potential advocates and funders to our cause, saving
19:08
SPEAKER_00: hallowed ground and helping a more Americans appreciate the ongoing
19:11
SPEAKER_00: resonance of our nation's history.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: As we mark the 250th anniversary of the
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Revolutionary War and our nation's founding, you will encourage Americans
19:20
SPEAKER_00: to experience the power of place by visiting battlefields and historic
19:24
SPEAKER_00: sites.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Please note, the creative functions of this role are outside our
19:30
SPEAKER_00: social media footprint.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: And again, what that means is like
19:35
you're not going to be spending a lot of time on social media,
19:37
or any,
19:38
maybe
19:39
SPEAKER_00: they've got an agency, I don't know.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: It also says, location: Washington DC
19:44
(hybrid) and it says,
19:45
again,
19:45
reports to...
19:46
which we know is the Director of
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Communications.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Job classification: full-time exempt, which we read in the
19:52
SPEAKER_00: roasty profile.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: There's a salary range listed which is good.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: We'll save that
19:57
SPEAKER_00: until when we go into the intermission.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: We'll do some salary
20:00
SPEAKER_00: guessing then.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Benefits?
20:02
SPEAKER_00: It says that it includes vacation, sick leave, paid
20:08
SPEAKER_00: holidays, 403(b) retirement plan.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: and for folks listening in Canada, that's
20:13
SPEAKER_00: pretty much an RRSP.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: It's a a plan that both you and your employer
20:17
SPEAKER_00: contribute to.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Health and dental insurance, life and AD&D insurance.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Jen, what's AD&D again?
20:25
SPEAKER_00: You know that one, I forget it.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: Accidental death and
20:28
SPEAKER_02: dismemberment, Right.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Disability insurance, paid
20:32
parental leave,
20:33
FSA,
20:35
which I think we found out in one of the episodes we did
20:40
SPEAKER_00: recently, FSA is, kind of like a healthcare spending account in the US.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: I think it's health spending account.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: And these Oh... flexible spending account,
20:53
SPEAKER_00: the acronym.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: But it's a healthcare spending account.... where
20:56
SPEAKER_00: you can decide what you'll spend the money on.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: And the last benefit that they
21:00
SPEAKER_00: list out is an on-site gym at the Washington, DC office.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, with the flavour of this little subsection,
21:10
SPEAKER_00: what does that tell you guys?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Like for me, this is this is very tied to like
21:14
SPEAKER_00: that brand.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Right?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: And it's very tied to, hey, you know, we
21:19
need to kind of operate as a PR outlet for this historical kind
21:23
of thing for
21:24
SPEAKER_00: understanding and appreciating the Revolutionary War.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: And we're really
21:28
SPEAKER_00: operating kind of more of a PR shop than we are like a click here and
21:32
SPEAKER_00: donate 20 bucks kind of charity.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: It really sounds to me a little bit like
21:36
SPEAKER_00: that.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because it sounds like
21:39
SPEAKER_02: they are they're approaching an anniversary.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: So, to me, that means that
21:42
they're going to be doing...
21:43
working on a campaign,
21:45
right,
21:45
to get visitors on
21:47
SPEAKER_02: the land and and everything.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: But what's interesting to me is that's
21:53
SPEAKER_02: part of kind of what this role is supposed to be doing.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: That part
21:58
SPEAKER_02: about social media, the way that sentence is written is so
22:04
SPEAKER_02: confusing to me.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, do you mind reading that that one sentence one more
22:09
SPEAKER_02: time?
22:09
SPEAKER_02: Is that what that means?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: So it says, verbatim, please note the
22:16
SPEAKER_00: creative functions of this role are outside our social media footprint.
22:20
That means so that do you both interpret that to mean that you
22:24
won't be doing
22:25
SPEAKER_02: social media for this role?
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Is that what how that reads to you?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Iit reads to me like they've got an
22:32
SPEAKER_00: agency.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: they've just hired an agency to do social media and it's like, you know,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: you don't have to do it because there's an agency where...
22:39
SPEAKER_00: I agree with you the
22:41
SPEAKER_00: way that they've worded this... it's kind of... it's kind of like a
22:46
SPEAKER_00: it's kind of like a I would not want to work here.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Like it it's a con because if
22:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm creative, I kind of want to participate in that, but you're telling
22:53
SPEAKER_00: me you're not gonna.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: In this day and age, comms means social
22:58
SPEAKER_02: media.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Like it really does.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: And one of the other bullet points like right
23:01
before that I believe was something about...
23:03
they want you to pursue other
23:06
SPEAKER_02: innovative outreach avenues.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: But not
23:11
SPEAKER_02: social media.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: So what other innovative outreach avenues are there
23:17
SPEAKER_02: beside... like I don't know.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: You're asking this person to think outside of a box
23:22
SPEAKER_02: but you're putting them in a very very tightly locked box.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: So I don't really
23:28
SPEAKER_02: understand how they are going to do that.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: yeah...
23:32
SPEAKER_02: I think that that's really, really interesting.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you want this
23:38
SPEAKER_02: person to do the social media?
23:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I took a quick gander and this
23:42
SPEAKER_02: organization has social media... all like all of the channels.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: So, it's
23:49
interesting to me that this yeah,
23:50
this individual wouldn't be tasked with doing
23:52
that when I feel like that would be such a good creative outlet
23:55
for them to do
23:56
some fun and interesting things,
23:57
but I'm going to like for sure go down the
23:59
SPEAKER_02: rabbit hole and look at what their social media posts are like.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: But
24:04
SPEAKER_02: maybe it is.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you said, maybe it is an agency.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting
24:07
SPEAKER_02: that that's its own bullet point.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: We always talk about this on the show, but
24:11
like if it's something that is a bullet point,
24:13
it means it's there for a reason.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: It's very important.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: So, we don't want to like ignore that, but it's it seems
24:20
to be a little bit of a mystery as to why they wouldn't be have
24:21
that as part
24:22
SPEAKER_02: of their role.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Curious to hear your thoughts.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: It makes me wonder if the person who has been in this role before
24:31
SPEAKER_00: has been...
24:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say of a certain age, so
24:36
SPEAKER_00: I'll say of a certain disposition.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: And they came across the social media
24:41
SPEAKER_00: like a long time ago and said, "Well, this is garbage.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do I
24:44
SPEAKER_00: don't want anything to do with this.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: It's dumb.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: It's like not great.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: It's
24:48
SPEAKER_00: for like children.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if they ran into a situation like that and
24:53
this person raised such a fuss and made such a stink that they
24:58
hired an agency
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: to do it and they kind of like got just
25:04
ingrained in their DNA that social media is for whipper
25:08
snappers and it's not
25:10
SPEAKER_00: for serious professionals.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: See that my my read on it is different.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: My read is
25:15
that they had someone doing it in-house and that person maybe
25:18
tripped up a
25:19
SPEAKER_02: couple of times.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they were too like cool with the social media.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe they put cactuses on top of the cannons or something.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: Like it didn't align with their brand or or how they want to be
25:34
SPEAKER_02: represented.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know...
25:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: I think I would
25:40
SPEAKER_01: have felt more comfortable reading it if it had said you'll
25:44
collaborate closely with the social media coordinator or the
25:46
agency partner
25:48
SPEAKER_01: or something.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: But the fact that they said it in that particular way makes it
25:53
feel like the organization itself doesn't agree with social
25:56
media for some
25:57
SPEAKER_01: reason.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: And then it they had just said you will be overseeing owned, earned and
26:03
SPEAKER_01: paid media.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: So how does it not overlap then with social media?
26:08
SPEAKER_01: And if maybe the
26:10
SPEAKER_01: communications director is the one responsible for social media, it would
26:14
SPEAKER_01: have been good to say that too.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: This is in the same department, but it's
26:18
SPEAKER_01: not your particular role.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: But the fact that it just says you will
26:25
SPEAKER_01: not have anything to do with creative social media development is a very
26:29
SPEAKER_01: strange way to put it and it it begs other questions.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Why not?
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And where is
26:33
SPEAKER_01: it and who's doing that?
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Have you found that
26:40
SPEAKER_00: trend kind of going through your work, Katelyn?
26:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, for the
26:44
SPEAKER_00: folks at home, Katelyn has an agency that works with a lot of
26:48
SPEAKER_00: nonprofits, Functional Authority.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: So, she knows the nonprofit space better
26:52
than Jen and I,
26:52
but do do you find that that's a trend with some organizations,
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Katelyn?
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Like they just do not pass go, do not touch social media, we hate this
26:59
SPEAKER_00: stuff.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Is that a thing?
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I think that it's an indicator
27:04
SPEAKER_01: that there's something the organization does not like about social media.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: Just
27:08
SPEAKER_01: the way they phrase that is so particular.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: But I think more often
27:13
SPEAKER_01: than not, I usually see descriptions like that
27:19
SPEAKER_01: explain that role's position with others too, you know.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: So you'll be
27:23
collaborating with the email marketing manager just to say that
27:27
you're not
27:28
SPEAKER_01: responsible for email marketing.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: So I more often see that the relationship
27:33
SPEAKER_01: with the roles so that you can understand the structure of the
27:37
SPEAKER_01: department that you'll be in.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: But it is odd to just kind of rule out a
27:42
communications arm in a communication specific role,
27:46
you know,
27:46
to say we don't
27:47
SPEAKER_01: do that, or you definitely won't do that.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Why not?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: Moving on to the last section: so, this is the entirety of the
28:02
SPEAKER_00: job ad that we're kind of coming into.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: This one is required knowledge,
28:06
SPEAKER_00: skills, and experience.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Bullet points, of course.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Bachelor's degree and three
28:11
SPEAKER_00: years of experience in communications in PR, marketing, publications,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: advertising, or other relevant creative field, keen interest in American
28:21
SPEAKER_00: history, and a flare for good storytelling.
28:25
Exceptional writing abilities,
28:26
including mastery of marrying tone and medium,
28:29
coupled with proficiency in editing for grammar,
28:31
clarity,
28:32
and succinctness.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Excellent organizational skills and attention to detail, especially in
28:38
SPEAKER_00: coordinating logistics for tangible events and products.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Ding, ding, ding.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: There it is.
28:46
demonstrated ability to balance multiple priorities and meet
28:48
firm deadlines while
28:50
SPEAKER_00: maintaining a results-oriented, entrepreneurial, and problem-solving
28:54
SPEAKER_00: mindset.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: An eye for good design, ideally paired
28:58
SPEAKER_00: with experience in graphic design and visual storytelling platforms.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Proficiency in Microsoft Office suite required.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Experience with Adobe graphic
29:07
SPEAKER_00: design platforms desired.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Knowledge of Drupal CMS and digital asset management
29:13
SPEAKER_00: valued.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And then it goes on to say to apply for
29:17
the position,
29:17
please send your resume,
29:19
cover letter,
29:19
salary requirements,
29:21
and
29:22
SPEAKER_00: references to an email address referencing communications in your
29:27
SPEAKER_00: subject line.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: No calls, please.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's the entirety of the job ad.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: My gripe with Microsoft Office notwithstanding, I find it
29:39
interesting that they said,
29:40
you know,
29:41
we require this we desire this and we
29:46
SPEAKER_00: value that.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: So this again tells kind of a story
29:50
SPEAKER_00: of like this role is going to wear a lot of hats.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: And you know, we found that
29:55
SPEAKER_00: bullet point where it's like, yeah, you're going to be coordinating event
29:58
SPEAKER_00: logistics, Communications Associate, so you know, get ready for that.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: Buckle up.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: But this also kind of says you're going to be a little bit of a graphics
30:06
SPEAKER_02: designer.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: We...
30:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
30:12
we all reacted when we heard that one bullet point,
30:16
but what stood out for
30:18
me more than anything else cuz like I think the the
30:21
requirements make sense
30:23
SPEAKER_02: with the role... what stood out for me was that they
30:28
SPEAKER_02: require references upon application to the role.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: That's like...
30:34
SPEAKER_02: I can't
30:35
SPEAKER_02: express how much I dislike that.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: References are like social currency that
30:42
SPEAKER_02: you have earned and you have to be really careful about how you use it.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: You
30:48
can use it up like sometimes it's a big ask depending on how
30:51
references are used
30:53
SPEAKER_02: in organizations.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: It can be a really big ask like are they wanting a letter of
30:58
SPEAKER_02: reference?
30:59
SPEAKER_02: are they how many do they want or are they wanting contact info in
31:03
SPEAKER_02: case they need to use your reference?
31:04
SPEAKER_02: like I would be hella cautious about
31:08
SPEAKER_02: handing out my references upon application.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: I've never seen that
31:14
SPEAKER_02: before.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like, Katelyn, like you would know more than I do
31:19
SPEAKER_02: whether or not maybe this is a normal thing for nonprofits.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that
31:24
it is based on your reaction,
31:24
but I just think that that's a big,
31:29
huge ask
31:30
SPEAKER_02: and I don't like it one bit.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: So that's what stood out to me most about that
31:34
SPEAKER_01: part.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it is common in non-profits to ask for references for
31:40
SPEAKER_01: clients, if you're a consultant or an agency partner.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, give us
31:44
examples of relevant projects that what you think would be
31:47
related to this.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: But
31:49
asking a job seeker who will be looking for a full-time exempt
31:52
job,
31:53
especially
31:54
SPEAKER_01: likely early career, that's so risky.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: And I they would probably have to use
32:00
their current employer because how many more employers do they
32:03
have in their
32:05
SPEAKER_01: back, you know, pocket, that they would be able to use as references.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: So, you
32:12
might have to tell your current employer that you're looking
32:14
for work when you're
32:16
SPEAKER_01: not ready to have that conversation.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's appropriate for
32:22
SPEAKER_01: this kind of position to ask for that upon application.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: To your point,
32:26
SPEAKER_00: yeah, spending the social currency is the biggest thing for me.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Like...
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Jen's absolutely right.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: like anytime you ask someone to to be a reference,
32:36
whether it's like someone's going to email you or call you or
32:38
whether it's
32:39
SPEAKER_00: like can you write me a reference letter, you are you're putting an
32:45
SPEAKER_00: IOU down in the favour category.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: So at the end, okay, sure... you know, you've
32:52
got an offer kind of coming and they want to talk to some
32:54
references to,
32:55
you
32:56
know,
32:56
make sure that all the things that you told are truthful and
32:58
whatever.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: That's fairly common.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: And from the the person's perspective who's seeking
33:04
the job,
33:04
not crazy,
33:05
because there's a good shot that spending that currency
33:10
SPEAKER_00: is going to get you something.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: But at the very start, no.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: And there's like Jen
33:15
and I have had conversations on the show before where it's like
33:17
reference checks,
33:19
SPEAKER_00: why are you even doing them?
33:19
SPEAKER_00: And I fully buy into that.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Like reference checks are
33:22
SPEAKER_00: they're just... they're dumb.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: All that you prove with a reference check is that you
33:26
SPEAKER_00: have at least one person in your life who is willing to lie for you.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Like what does that tell you as an organization?
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: Yep. Absolutely. Um, sorry, you'll probably have to cut this
33:37
SPEAKER_02: I had... there was a tangent that I was going to go on,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: but this isn't necessarily just about reference checks.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: It's about, you know, that final... that final section of the job
33:47
SPEAKER_02: posting, but it did make me think about that reporting structure and how
33:53
SPEAKER_02: you had said this is probably more of an entry level... it reads like an
33:57
SPEAKER_02: entry-level position.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: I feel like they've shot themselves in
34:03
SPEAKER_02: the foot with with the title that they gave this position.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: I think they should
34:06
SPEAKER_02: have said Comm's Coordinator or something like that, because if
34:12
SPEAKER_02: we go back to them reporting into the Director of Comms.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: And that shows the
34:16
SPEAKER_02: individual that there is no ladder up in their career.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: It's comm's
34:22
SPEAKER_02: associate and then director of comms.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: And unless
34:28
the director of comms leaves then where are you going to grow
34:30
in your role,
34:31
SPEAKER_02: right?
34:31
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: I think it's interesting if they would have started
34:35
SPEAKER_02: it as a comm's coordinator then maybe there was a bit more of a trae tra
34:39
trajectory for that individual but this makes me feel like it's
34:41
just really not
34:44
SPEAKER_02: like how long do they expect someone to stay in this role.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: It's not designed in
34:48
SPEAKER_02: a way that to me feels really sustainable and like that someone would
34:53
SPEAKER_02: be interested in in career growth and development with this role.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: I agree and I think the word that triggered me was "entrepreneurial" for
35:02
this level,
35:03
like,
35:04
really because that to me means autonomous and innovative and
35:09
SPEAKER_01: I would think an associate or even coordinator level would need a
35:15
communications director level person to help them and they
35:17
would be shadowing
35:19
and me you know they would need more mentorship or guidance but
35:22
this seems
35:24
SPEAKER_01: like the responsibilities are you hit the ground running.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: You're going to be
35:27
SPEAKER_01: planning events.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: You will be communicating with supporters directly.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: You'll be assessing grant applications.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, this this feels more like at
35:36
SPEAKER_01: least a mid-level job.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, that requires autonomy, the entrepreneurial
35:43
SPEAKER_01: spirit.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: So, I think that word does not match the level that they've
35:48
SPEAKER_01: positioned this role as.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: It's a cultural
35:51
SPEAKER_00: mismatch too, right?
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Like everything about this job ad reads as this is an
35:57
SPEAKER_00: organization that has a certain way of doing things.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: They like doing things
36:03
SPEAKER_00: that way.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: They have certain things that they do to bring in like donor money and
36:09
SPEAKER_00: don't really screw with the system.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: But then it says you need to be
36:14
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurial.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Entrepreneurs screw with the system.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Entrepreneurs like they
36:20
are only successful if they are willing to break down barriers
36:22
and rethink the
36:23
SPEAKER_00: way that things are being done.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: So for me, like, that's a cultural
36:28
SPEAKER_00: mismatch that could potentially create some conflict...
36:32
create some clashes in the organization if you truly do get
36:36
someone who is an
36:39
SPEAKER_00: innovative problem solver and thinks creatively.
36:41
I think companies love to throw around "entrepreneurial
36:43
mindset",
36:44
"entrepreneurial
36:45
SPEAKER_02: spirit", without actually understanding what that means.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think...
36:51
SPEAKER_02: companies want it to mean that you will do more with less, right?
36:57
SPEAKER_02: Like it's
36:58
going to be,
36:59
like,
37:00
low budget,
37:01
but you're going to have to be creative and
37:03
entrepreneurial and figure out how to do a lot with little bit
37:05
of resources,
37:06
when
37:07
really to us it means,
37:09
like,
37:09
that autonomy to be able to do what you need to,
37:13
to
37:14
SPEAKER_02: get the job done and have decision-making authority and have
37:19
SPEAKER_02: influence and things like that.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's just such a mismatch of what
37:21
companies think it means versus what in reality it means in
37:25
order for them to be
37:26
SPEAKER_02: successful in their role.
37:31
Well,
37:31
we've come to the part of the show where it's time to guess how
37:34
much
37:35
SPEAKER_00: money is attached to this thing.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Jen absolutely loves it, but we'll give
37:41
SPEAKER_00: we'll give Katelyn first crack at this.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: And Jen, you'll be off the
37:45
SPEAKER_00: hook for guessing the salary for the first time in a very long time.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Clap,
37:49
SPEAKER_00: please.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: So, Katelyn, what do you think this role is worth?
37:56
SPEAKER_00: It's a full-time role.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: It's based in Washington, DC.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: It's exempt.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Don't
38:00
SPEAKER_00: know if that matters for salary or not.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: They have some benefits that go along
38:03
SPEAKER_00: with it.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: This is a little bit like an entry-level'ish
38:07
role,
38:08
but there is some expectation that you are going to make
38:13
decisions on
38:15
SPEAKER_00: your own and you're not going to need handholding.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: If you were looking at a
38:19
SPEAKER_00: job like this, what would you value it at?
38:23
Oh,
38:23
so I already think it's going to be probably $15,000 less than
38:26
it should
38:28
SPEAKER_01: be.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think because they're calling it
38:33
SPEAKER_01: associate and that's kind of a coordinator level role, I think they're
38:38
seeing it as junior level,
38:39
but I...
38:40
from our discussion,
38:41
I feel like it should be
38:43
SPEAKER_01: a mid-level classification.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And so I already think there's going to be a
38:47
SPEAKER_01: pretty steep gap in job seekers who would have this experience to hit the
38:53
ground running and to be autonomous and and to really be
38:58
successful in the
38:59
SPEAKER_01: required outputs of the role.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: All that said, I am guessing that the the salary
39:06
that they have posted for an associate level is probably
39:10
between USD $45,000
39:12
SPEAKER_01: and USD $50,000.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: I think it would be more appropriate in
39:17
SPEAKER_01: a USD $60,000 range.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: But that's probably not what it's published at.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: So that is my guess.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: So this job... the salary range
39:30
SPEAKER_00: that they have posted for it is starting at USD $55,000.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And the top end is USD $63,000.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Is that good?
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Is that fair?
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Is that
39:43
SPEAKER_00: generous?
39:43
SPEAKER_00: You'll have much more of a sense of of that than Jen or I would.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that is a more mid-level range for a nonprofit organization.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: So to me
39:51
SPEAKER_01: that means that maybe they shouldn't have called it associate and that it
39:55
SPEAKER_01: is actually a higher level position.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: Potentially it's misclassified I think
40:03
SPEAKER_01: at a more junior level name.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what I am feeling from what they
40:10
SPEAKER_01: actually have published the range as.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: But it also when you go back
40:12
actually have published the range as. But it also when you go back
40:12
SPEAKER_00: that's fair.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: It's a mismatch maybe.
40:13
Yeah.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: But there's also a mismatch I
40:16
think in in they want someone with a bachelor's degree plus
40:20
three years of
40:21
SPEAKER_02: experience.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: Is that associate and higher?
40:24
SPEAKER_02: To me that's like associate and lower.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: So, it's interesting to me that that they would find someone with like
40:32
Yeah,
40:33
it it feels like it's generous for someone that early in their
40:38
career.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: I
40:39
SPEAKER_02: don't know.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: I think there are many mismatches, misalignments
40:43
SPEAKER_02: throughout this job posting.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: There there might also there might also
40:48
SPEAKER_00: be a cost of living thing.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: Because this job ad... this job, this role is
40:52
SPEAKER_00: based in Washington, DC.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: and it's hybrid.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: So, you're going to have to at
40:57
SPEAKER_00: least be within commuting distance of Washington for a couple of days a
41:01
SPEAKER_00: week, right?
41:02
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you don't live in Washington.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you could
41:06
SPEAKER_00: live in one of the feeder communities around like there's even people who
41:11
SPEAKER_00: commute from like Baltimore into Washington for work.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: A little bit of
41:14
SPEAKER_00: a hike, but people do it, you know.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: But perhaps there's something like that
41:18
SPEAKER_00: going on.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe given that this is an urban area and they envision this as a
41:23
very entry level kind of role,
41:24
maybe they have to bump the salary up a little
41:26
SPEAKER_00: bit to attract candidates.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's something like that going on.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there are definitely hub locations
41:34
SPEAKER_01: throughout the states.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: So that that's a big one where they'd have to factor in
41:36
SPEAKER_01: the cost of living.
41:40
One thing that stuck out for me too with this at the very end
41:42
of the job ad is
41:44
SPEAKER_00: they post a salary range, right?
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Like we just talked about it.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: but they say
41:49
SPEAKER_00: send us your resume, cover letter, salary expectations.
41:54
So they're saying what they're willing to pay you but they're
41:56
also saying what
41:57
SPEAKER_00: do you want to be paid?
41:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm like yeah you know $55,000 to $63,000 like that's
42:00
SPEAKER_00: a range.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: So maybe they're looking for you to say... "Give me $61,725."
42:06
but it feels feels weird to ask for your expectations when
42:11
there's a range
42:12
SPEAKER_00: posted.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: I've seen that.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: I've seen that quite
42:15
often and I don't know if people would use like if you say
42:18
$63,000,
42:18
which is what
42:20
SPEAKER_02: my advice would be.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: I would always, as long as it's within the range and you're
42:25
qualified,
42:25
there's no reason then for someone to screen you out if you
42:29
posted,
42:30
you know,
42:30
your desired salary to be within their range still even if it's
42:33
at
42:34
the top of the range but who knows that could be a barrier for
42:36
some people but
42:38
SPEAKER_02: you lose all of your negotiation power when you do that
42:42
SPEAKER_02: so really don't like that request at all.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Like if you come in and say, "Oh, I
42:47
SPEAKER_02: really, like, I really want to make my odds better, so I'm going to price
42:51
SPEAKER_02: myself a little bit lower."
42:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
42:53
SPEAKER_02: that's it.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: They'll hold you to that.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: Like there is no more negotiation after
42:56
SPEAKER_02: that.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: You said that you were okay with 55, so we're giving you 55.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Like...
43:01
SPEAKER_02: what changes now?
43:02
SPEAKER_02: The only advice I can give the job seeker would be to then say
43:05
like,
43:06
you know,
43:07
now that we've gone through the interview process and I have
43:10
SPEAKER_02: a better idea of the role, I think a more suitable, you know, based
43:15
SPEAKER_02: on this new information, I think a more suitable salary would be X.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think
43:20
that's your the only power you have in negotiation,
43:21
but they really do take
43:24
that power away from you by asking you to to set your set your
43:27
price right from
43:28
SPEAKER_02: the get-go.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: So, I don't like that.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: My advice for folks who are in
43:33
that position is to be a very squirmy wormy and say quite
43:36
simply...
43:37
"the posted
43:38
SPEAKER_00: salary range meets my needs."
43:41
SPEAKER_00: And when you get to the offer stage,
43:45
SPEAKER_00: pull out your negotiating levers.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: because Jen's absolutely right.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: If you
43:48
SPEAKER_00: say, you know, 53, um you're done.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: You're getting 53 if you get the job.
43:52
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: And you might find through the interview process that for
43:57
SPEAKER_00: you like this is higher than 53.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: And sure, you can change your mind, but then
44:02
SPEAKER_00: you kind of lose a little bit, because they can turn around and say,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: "Well, you said 53."
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And if you say, "Well, I didn't fully understand what
44:10
SPEAKER_00: this entailed."
44:10
SPEAKER_00: That is absolutely a fair comment, but they're still going to
44:13
SPEAKER_00: be able to kind of hold that against you a little bit.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: And you want to have as
44:18
SPEAKER_00: little of that as possible going into a negotiation.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: Like you want to try and
44:22
preserve your leverage,
44:22
preserve the upper hand as much as you possibly can
44:26
because the employer is always going to have the upper hand to
44:29
some extent...
44:31
unless it's a crazy job market and you have very,
44:34
very specific skills that are
44:36
SPEAKER_00: impossible to find and they cannot do without.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: That's really the only case
44:41
SPEAKER_00: where you have like leverage over the employer.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: No employer is ever going to be like, you know, you had said 53, but
44:49
SPEAKER_02: we're just so blown away that we want to offer you 62.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's just not
44:53
SPEAKER_02: they're just not going to do that.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, you have to be really careful in
44:57
SPEAKER_02: situations like that.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Unless you're my wife.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: That actually
45:00
SPEAKER_00: happened to her once.
45:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, we can't all be Clare, can we?
45:06
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: She she told me like when she got the offer letter, she was like,
45:11
SPEAKER_00: "Oh, they actually added $4,000 more to this."
45:13
SPEAKER_00: I was like, "Good for you."
45:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:16
SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: You are a very special unicorn, dear.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: So, with that in mind, folks, we are going to head into the intermission.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: We'll take a little break here.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: Katelyn and Jen and I will read over the job ad,
45:30
and we will come back and render our final verdicts and scores
45:34
on this job ad
45:35
SPEAKER_00: and role design.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: All right, we are back everybody from the intermission.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Katelyn and Jen and I
45:56
SPEAKER_00: have read the job ad and we are ready to render our final verdict.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: Katelyn,
46:01
thinking about the job ad itself,
46:03
how it was written,
46:04
what it communicated,
46:05
what
46:07
SPEAKER_00: would you score this out of 10?
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think I would score it a 6 out
46:14
SPEAKER_01: of 10.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: I or maybe 5 .
46:15
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a mismatch for job level.
46:20
I think what I liked about it is that it does give a good
46:22
overview of what the
46:25
SPEAKER_01: expected outcomes of the role are.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: So I think that that was very specific.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: You
46:29
know,
46:29
there's a component of event logistics,
46:32
there's writing in different
46:35
SPEAKER_01: areas of the organization.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's not hiding much, but I just
46:41
don't believe that it's a good match for the level that the of
46:45
employee that
46:46
SPEAKER_01: they're looking for.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: And the "entrepreneurial spirit" I don't think
46:51
quite matches the culture that they're conveying with what
46:56
seems to be a bit
46:57
SPEAKER_01: more regimented, process-heavy, stick-to-what-we're-doing.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: We need a
47:02
coordinator to keep all of these areas of the operation moving
47:06
and we need a
47:07
doer,
47:08
not necessarily an innovator or someone to come in and build
47:12
something
47:13
SPEAKER_01: from scratch.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I think this job is conveying is come in
47:20
SPEAKER_01: do what's expected which is outlined in these core areas.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't
47:25
SPEAKER_01: necessarily call that role what it's named but at least it outlines the
47:30
SPEAKER_01: expectations I think pretty clearly.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: So then that's my take on it.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: and thinking about the role design itself, like the
47:39
responsibilities,
47:40
what this person is going to be doing on the day-to-day as
47:44
SPEAKER_00: communicated in the job ad.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Same question.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: How would you rate this out of
47:47
SPEAKER_00: 10?
47:47
SPEAKER_00: Is this role sustainable or is it a dumpster fire?
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: I would be cautious of this.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: I would be more on a 4.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: I think I
47:56
wouldn't recommend pursuing this without knowing that you are
48:01
going to be wearing
48:03
SPEAKER_01: very many hats.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't look like there's a very clear job path
48:08
SPEAKER_01: forward.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: So you might be stuck doing this for several years without
48:14
SPEAKER_01: knowing what's next in your career.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: So if advancement is important to you, I
48:20
SPEAKER_01: would not recommend this role or I would approach it with caution.
48:26
I think if it's an operator and someone who really likes to
48:29
have a clear set of
48:32
responsibilities and they can manage these different work
48:35
streams quite well
48:37
SPEAKER_01: and they find that interesting, then this could be a good fit.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: But I
48:42
SPEAKER_01: wouldn't call it a creative, innovative role.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: It's and certainly you called out that they seem to
48:53
SPEAKER_00: want a very follow-the-rules person, but then they say that they don't.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: That's
48:57
SPEAKER_00: that's weird.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: That's going to cause some issues.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: They're going to run into that.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: They're going to bump up against that
49:04
SPEAKER_02: for sure.
49:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, Jen, thinking about the
49:07
job ad itself,
49:08
how it was written,
49:09
what it communicated,
49:09
what would you rate
49:10
SPEAKER_00: this out of 10?
49:11
SPEAKER_00: What's your score?
49:12
SPEAKER_02: I gave it a 7 out of 10 just for the
49:14
SPEAKER_02: job ad itself because they do list a salary.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: They list a reporting structure.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of things that most job ads are are missing.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: So, I
49:27
SPEAKER_02: do appreciate that.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: They list their benefits in detail.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: T here are
49:35
SPEAKER_02: benefits, so that's great.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's pretty straightforward.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: Like it explains
49:39
SPEAKER_02: what the job is... explains, like you had mentioned, the
49:42
SPEAKER_02: requirements the nice to haves versus essentials and things like that.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: I
49:47
would have liked to have seen some kind of accommodation
49:49
statement in the job
49:52
SPEAKER_02: ad as well.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: I would like to have seen some kind of AI disclosure.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: Are they
49:57
going to be using AI to,
49:59
you know,
49:59
at any point of the process...
50:01
docked points
50:03
SPEAKER_02: for things like asking for references up front.
50:06
SPEAKER_02: But in terms of the
50:08
SPEAKER_02: job ad itself, yeah.
50:10
SPEAKER_02: When we talk about the job design, that's where I
50:15
SPEAKER_02: marked it a 4 out of 10.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Because I think, like we all agree, it's
50:19
SPEAKER_02: there's so many misalignments.
50:21
SPEAKER_02: I think they're going to run into a lot of
50:24
SPEAKER_02: issues.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: It's it feels so rigid.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: And then I dug a little bit into
50:30
SPEAKER_02: their social media on their website.
50:32
SPEAKER_02: And so there is like they ask at some point
50:35
for the person to be like compelling storyteller and have
50:38
passion for like
50:41
SPEAKER_02: this organization's cause.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: But on the social media post there is
50:46
storytelling on the post and so I just don't understand why
50:49
they would take
50:50
SPEAKER_02: that away from a person who can who can use that.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: Like are they not going to be
50:55
SPEAKER_02: using their storytelling and applying it?
50:56
SPEAKER_02: Like it's just so weird.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: So yeah
50:59
SPEAKER_02: that's a 4 out of 10 for job design for me.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there's a lot of
51:02
SPEAKER_02: growth opportunities.
51:03
SPEAKER_02: I can't imagine somebody staying in this position for
51:06
longer than maybe like one or two years before moving on to
51:08
something else
51:09
because I just don't think that they're going to it's not going
51:12
to fill their
51:13
SPEAKER_02: bucket for them.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: All the reasons why they went to school for what they're
51:17
SPEAKER_02: doing.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that they're going to get that fulfillment.
51:20
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, 4
51:21
SPEAKER_02: out of 10 for me on the job design.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it very much strikes me as... you
51:26
SPEAKER_00: have to love the subject matter to really really get into this.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, you
51:31
know,
51:32
I would I would be looking at this and being like,
51:34
okay,
51:34
if I'm a Civil
51:36
War re-enactor or like a history buff or something,
51:39
maybe this is the coolest
51:41
SPEAKER_00: thing ever.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: But outside of that, yeah, it seems a little lacking.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: So, for
51:48
SPEAKER_00: me, on the job ad, for once, I was like the generous person in the room.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: Writing of the job ad, 8 out of 10.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I thought the job ad itself was
51:58
SPEAKER_00: pretty darn good.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: There were no mistakes, no typos, no grammatical
52:03
SPEAKER_00: errors.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: There was no syntax stuff like it was well written.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: They had a proof-
52:08
SPEAKER_00: reader, which man, it pains me to say that like that makes you
52:14
stand out,
52:15
but Jen and I have read so many job ads that are just total
52:19
garbage
52:20
SPEAKER_00: that you can barely understand because nobody bothered to proofread them.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: that yeah, they did pretty well for this.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: They also
52:30
SPEAKER_00: communicated the expectations of the role well in the job ad.
52:33
SPEAKER_00: Now, are the
52:34
SPEAKER_00: expectations reasonable?
52:36
SPEAKER_00: Different question.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: I got some things to say about
52:39
SPEAKER_00: that too like both of you.
52:40
SPEAKER_00: But they communicated the expectations pretty
52:43
SPEAKER_00: well, I would say.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: They communicated their benefits pretty well.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: And I
52:48
SPEAKER_00: think they could have done more on that front.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: Like they took the very
52:53
SPEAKER_00: traditional route with benefits.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: Like you got health insurance, you've got
52:57
SPEAKER_00: AD&D, you've got like a healthcare spending account, you've got a 403(b).
53:02
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: And to some people, yeah, exciting, but it's not topical.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: None of
53:09
SPEAKER_00: that connects to the employer brand.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: None of that is really going to appeal
53:14
SPEAKER_00: to someone who really loves the subject matter.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: So like that was kind of a miss.
53:20
The things where I think they could have done better were
53:24
talking about the
53:25
SPEAKER_00: employer brand and the mission more.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: They did talk about the mission a little
53:28
SPEAKER_00: bit but only in a very surface way.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: So they said, you know, we want to convince
53:33
SPEAKER_00: Americans that these hallowed battlefields are important and you know,
53:38
SPEAKER_00: we need to rever them and respect them and we're going into the nation's
53:41
SPEAKER_00: birthday um which is July 4th this year, America's 250th birthday.
53:43
SPEAKER_00: So they
53:46
kind of did surface level on that,
53:47
but they didn't get me excited about it.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a filter point.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they only want people who
53:54
SPEAKER_00: are already super excited about that stuff.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: But if I'm going into a
53:59
competitive labour market looking for someone who just like
54:03
checks all the
54:04
boxes,
54:06
I'm going to try a heck of a lot harder with that and convince
54:09
people
54:10
and tell them why this stuff matters instead of assuming that
54:13
they already
54:14
SPEAKER_00: know why all this stuff matter.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: That was a big miss for me.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Role design.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: 5 out of 10.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: Like you guys, the the biggest point for me of
54:25
dissonance was the social media and thing,
54:28
like,
54:28
you know this role doesn't
54:30
SPEAKER_00: involve social media.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: Why?
54:31
SPEAKER_00: Like the way that they phrase that was like you have
54:35
absolutely nothing to do with social media which is probably
54:37
going to be one
54:38
SPEAKER_00: of the most creative parts of the job.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
54:41
SPEAKER_00: There's also like you
54:43
SPEAKER_00: guys said no pathway for growth here.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: you know, this is going to be this is
54:48
SPEAKER_00: going to be a couple of years and that's it.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: Unless, like, you love, love, love the
54:53
subject matter and can live on 55 to 63 for like the rest of
54:59
your life sort
55:00
SPEAKER_00: of thing.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: people need salary growth over time for no other reason than to
55:05
SPEAKER_00: keep up with inflation.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: But some people that's not important because they have a
55:09
partner who makes a ton of money or they own their house or all
55:11
these other
55:12
SPEAKER_00: factors, you know.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: So, you can have people who don't really need a salary to
55:16
SPEAKER_00: increase over time to be fine.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: They're more about fulfillment.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: If that's what this is, like cool.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: But not having a pathway for growth...
55:26
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a big miss for me.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: I would have really liked to see an org
55:31
SPEAKER_00: structure in this ad.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: Or at the very very least, I would have liked to see a
55:37
SPEAKER_00: bit of a description of the different working parts of the organization.
55:42
SPEAKER_00: So we
55:43
SPEAKER_00: talked about, you know, the difference between communications and donor
55:47
SPEAKER_00: engagement, the difference between communications and marketing, the
55:50
SPEAKER_00: difference between communications and events.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: And there are enough hints in
55:55
SPEAKER_00: this that talk about role creep or suggest role creep that it would have
55:59
been would have been highly valuable to understand more of how
56:03
the organization
56:04
SPEAKER_00: functions.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: You can ask that question in the interview for sure, but how much
56:09
effort does it take to put that down in a couple of bullet
56:11
points in the job ad?
56:13
SPEAKER_00: Not a lot.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: You can say there's a donor engagement team.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: There is a fundraising
56:18
SPEAKER_00: team.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: There's like a purchase and acquisition of land team.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: You can do
56:22
SPEAKER_00: that stuff very very easily in the job ad.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: So why not?
56:25
SPEAKER_00: Especially with
56:26
SPEAKER_00: something like this where there's a ton of ambiguity.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: So for me, yeah, it
56:31
SPEAKER_00: wasn't great the way they designed this role.
56:32
SPEAKER_00: 5 out of 10.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: Not super sustainable.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you Paul on how important it would be to understand the way
56:40
the organization is structured and I think it would also be
56:43
very important to
56:44
SPEAKER_01: understand the budget and the revenue expectations.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: If they can even say you would be indirectly responsible for a $1 million
56:54
plus revenue stream or something events or the trust portion of
57:00
the organization
57:01
SPEAKER_01: and then you can have access to or would be responsible for a six figure
57:07
SPEAKER_01: operating budget per year.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: Do they have agency support or is it just on your
57:12
SPEAKER_01: own?
57:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just you.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: It's one of one.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: you are responsible for building everything
57:17
SPEAKER_01: from scratch or do you have a bench behind you?
57:21
SPEAKER_01: You can work with agency
57:22
SPEAKER_01: partners or consultants or paid advertising.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: You have access to these
57:26
SPEAKER_01: funds.
57:27
SPEAKER_01: I think if a nonprofit is able to incorporate some statement like that,
57:32
it helps you understand the strength of their bench and and the
57:38
resources that
57:39
SPEAKER_01: you would have available to you in stepping into this role.
57:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Having a sense of how large these events are and what
57:48
kind of money they typically bring in from a fundraising
57:51
perspective is pretty
57:52
SPEAKER_00: good context.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: Like you could read that and say, "Oh, okay.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be
57:56
SPEAKER_00: doing a certain type of thing because these donors got tons of money and
58:00
SPEAKER_00: there's a certain expectation."
58:02
SPEAKER_00: Like that gives you a pretty good flavor for
58:04
what that could be versus,
58:05
you know,
58:06
we have a newsletter with 100,000 people
58:09
SPEAKER_00: on it.
58:09
SPEAKER_00: We mail them something once a month like a little magazine and there's
58:13
a little form in it that they like handwrite and give us a
58:15
check and rip it
58:16
SPEAKER_00: out and mail it back.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: Two very different things, right?
58:18
SPEAKER_00: Having an understanding
58:19
of that upfront probably pretty useful to somebody who's
58:22
seriously considering
58:24
SPEAKER_01: I had that experience with a nonprofit.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: It one of the responsibilities was to manage a paid advertising program.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: So, I
58:31
SPEAKER_01: assumed it's a big paid advertising program.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: And upon starting to actually
58:38
SPEAKER_01: work with them, this is after the interview process, I found out that the
58:42
SPEAKER_01: budget was less than $10,000.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: And I said, "Oh, per week or per month?"
58:47
SPEAKER_01: And
58:48
SPEAKER_01: they said, "No, just total overall."
58:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was blown away.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: So, I think being able
58:54
to at least ask that in the interview process and then bonus
58:58
points,
58:58
if if the
58:59
SPEAKER_01: organization puts some of that information in the job description
59:03
upfront,
59:04
then they can attract the right talent people that can say,
59:08
"I've
59:09
SPEAKER_01: managed a $100,000 annual budget easily.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: I can definitely step into that."
59:14
SPEAKER_01: Or,
59:15
SPEAKER_01: "No, I've only ever managed $5,000 for the whole year."
59:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's a big
59:19
SPEAKER_01: stretch.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: So, I think having that information would would help both
59:24
SPEAKER_01: parties.
59:25
SPEAKER_02: I think you're absolutely right.
59:26
SPEAKER_02: Having
59:27
SPEAKER_02: that information and then they ask for a cover letter, too.
59:29
SPEAKER_02: So, you can speak to
59:30
that even like even for the screening process,
59:32
you can speak to that in your
59:33
SPEAKER_02: cover letter.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: Like you've got the information there.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: You can you can find
59:37
SPEAKER_02: that connection point right away.
59:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's the more
59:42
SPEAKER_02: information you can share, the better.
59:43
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be easier for you to find
59:45
SPEAKER_02: your ideal candidate when you provide more information.
59:51
SPEAKER_02: Definitely. Yeah, you know, $10,000 that's not going
59:52
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, $10,000 that's not going
59:54
SPEAKER_00: to go very long.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: Especially when you consider that their activities
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: are non-digital, right?
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: Like I think about out of home ad campaigns and
1:00:06
buys like $10,000 would get you about a half day,
1:00:10
half network in Toronto's like
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: subway and that's that's it.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: Like 10,000 bucks not going to go very far.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: So
1:00:17
you're right,
1:00:17
like having having a sense of what the budget that you would be
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: managing if you're managing the budget would be super valuable.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: Now maybe the
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: director is that person, right?
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: And I would... if I was a communications
1:00:30
associate,
1:00:30
if I was applying for this job and the salary was what it was
1:00:35
and
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: the organization said, "You're going to be in charge of administering an
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: advertising budget of a million dollars."
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, "Cool.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: 20%
1:00:47
SPEAKER_00: more money, please.
1:00:48
Right.
1:00:48
Exactly.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that we can consider this ad roasted.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, Katelyn
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: McCardle, for joining us in the virtual studio today.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: It was an absolute hoot.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to hit the subscribe button, everybody.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: We will see you next week.