Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host Series Esther Goldstein Interviews Veronica Lowenbok

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Guest Host Series Esther Goldstein Interviews Veronica Lowenbok · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
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  Speaker 2: Hey everyone, I am so excited to be on Guy
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  Speaker 2: McPherson's Trauma Therapists podcast today. For those of you who
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  Speaker 2: know me, Hi, For those who don know me, my
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  Speaker 2: name is Esther Goldstein. I'm a trauma specialist and I
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  Speaker 2: have a practice in New York. My book actually just
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  Speaker 2: came out with a new Harbinger EMDR for anxiety. Here's
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  Speaker 2: what I'm I know, it's really exciting. Here's what I'm
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  Speaker 2: really excited about today. I'm having a conversation with Veronica
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  Speaker 2: Loenbook from Sweden. Super excited to have a conversation. And
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  Speaker 2: this is the kind of conversation that's really going to
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  Speaker 2: make you pause and really will shift the way you
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  Speaker 2: show up as a therapist, psychologist, and honestly even as
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  Speaker 2: a MN. So, Veronica, can you first tell us I
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  Speaker 2: got to meet Veronica one of my trauma programs that
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  Speaker 2: I run. They say that when you teach people. It's
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  Speaker 2: not really that you teach. Actually the people you work
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  Speaker 2: with teach you. And Veronica is one of those people.
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  Speaker 2: So Veronica, tell us a little bit who you are,
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  Speaker 2: tell us about the book that you wrote, and then
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  Speaker 2: let's talk about the conversation that we're going to be
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  Speaker 2: having today.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so thank you so much for inviting me to join.
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  Speaker 1: I love it.
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  Speaker 3: We color coded like the awesomeness. So people listening you
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  Speaker 3: can't see, but me and Esther were like, what are
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  Speaker 3: you going to wear to?
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  Speaker 2: They did not coordinate it we got.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, Veronica eleven book. I work as a therapist.
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  Speaker 3: I have like the foundational psychotherapy training from Sweden, and
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  Speaker 3: then I had your program and I've added some stuff
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  Speaker 3: and for me, the core is affect focused therapy and
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  Speaker 3: body based that a body oriented methods, and I specialize
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  Speaker 3: on nervus system really, which is what I wrote my
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  Speaker 3: book about. I've also worked as a research assistant in
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  Speaker 3: a study where we used body based body oriented therapy
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  Speaker 3: on complex post traumatic stress disorder. So the body as
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  Speaker 3: the vehicle for exploration and the body as the way
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  Speaker 3: in to understand and get to know myself in therapy
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  Speaker 3: because like you know, and like you also work as
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  Speaker 3: it's been so mind heavy and focused for so long
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  Speaker 3: that it's like how how can we not use the body?
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  Speaker 3: Like where's the body? And so I'm really appreciative of
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  Speaker 3: the growth in awareness regarding nervousystem regivation. I've been working
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  Speaker 3: with this for so many years and in the place
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  Speaker 3: that it's taking not only in trauma, but also in
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  Speaker 3: like the public eye, the public knowledge, and with the
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  Speaker 3: growth of that, maybe some things need need just a retake.
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  Speaker 3: So so we have your understanding of what it actually
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  Speaker 3: is that we do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know one of the things that Veronica
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  Speaker 2: was saying she is she's written a book and has Instagram.
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  Speaker 2: Will talk about that after I will k it up
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  Speaker 2: on the show notes. But one of the things Veronica,
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  Speaker 2: I know I asked you was like tell me about
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  Speaker 2: the research, and you said that it's like private and
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  Speaker 2: it's not yet you can't talk about it. But we
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  Speaker 2: are going to have a conversation for those of you
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  Speaker 2: all that are on here is that there's so much
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  Speaker 2: hype and talk about working with a nervous system, working
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  Speaker 2: with a body, but like what does that actually mean.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to give some terminologies to help us as
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  Speaker 2: therapists and as humans really embody that and also speaking
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  Speaker 2: to the concept of introception and what's actually happening between
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  Speaker 2: the person's understanding or theory and actually somatic skills, to
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  Speaker 2: how the clients actually metabolize the somatic work, because a
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  Speaker 2: lot of what we notice and Veronica, you and I
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  Speaker 2: were talking is there can be concepts that the nervous
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  Speaker 2: system could take in, and there can be exercises that
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  Speaker 2: the nervous system cannot. And I know, Veronica, you were
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  Speaker 2: talking about even in terms of the research piece which
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  Speaker 2: like bless your soul, in terms of what you're working on,
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  Speaker 2: which is going to be published. You know, you talk
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  Speaker 2: about like between research and actually getting out there in
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  Speaker 2: the general public. For therapists, for workplaces, for school environments,
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  Speaker 2: it's usually seventeen years until people actually get data, and
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  Speaker 2: we're kind of like working on spreading more knowledge. And
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  Speaker 2: I know for you, your research paper is really like
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  Speaker 2: collapsing that timeline of no, let's get this data out
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  Speaker 2: there so people can suffer less and there could be
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  Speaker 2: more knowledge so people can actually feel more whole. So
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  Speaker 2: let's talk about can we can you tell us the
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  Speaker 2: topic that you're researching and you can't go into the results,
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  Speaker 2: but let's have our conversation about what's the topic that
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  Speaker 2: you're looking at, and really believe this conversation is for
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  Speaker 2: therapists to want to deepen their understanding one of the
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  Speaker 2: body based work and where they get tripped up and
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  Speaker 2: where their clients get tripped up, and how we can
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  Speaker 2: help them better understand what's happening so they could feel
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  Speaker 2: calmer and also give their clients like the digestible enzymes
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  Speaker 2: to use the somatic work. Now we're going to go
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  Speaker 2: right into the deep dive.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, So what my study looked at is
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  Speaker 3: a part of a bigger study and it's only like halfway.
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  Speaker 3: That's why the So it's not secret in itself, but
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  Speaker 3: we can't close the results too early because that's how
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  Speaker 3: research work. So I looked at if a body oriented
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  Speaker 3: therapy would increase the perceived safety in the patients so
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  Speaker 3: compared to control group that did not get the treatment.
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  Speaker 3: And more specifically, I looked at if interception the part
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  Speaker 3: interception play or not play in in facilitating the increase
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  Speaker 3: in perceived safety because in body oriented therapy, one of
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  Speaker 3: the main key factors or components is interception is that
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  Speaker 3: we aim direct the attention to our body, to our sensations,
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  Speaker 3: and there is there's some research done on an interception
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  Speaker 3: or no, I want to adjust myself. There is plenty
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  Speaker 3: of research done on interception, but in the in the
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  Speaker 3: area or in in the in the frame of body
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  Speaker 3: oriented therapy and also connected with the therapeutic alliance, there is
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  Speaker 3: no research. So that's where I wanted to like said
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  Speaker 3: bridge to therap because as we know working with with
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  Speaker 3: trauma patients, we it's not always helpful to aim the
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  Speaker 3: direction towards the body because many times that is the uh,
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  Speaker 3: the perceived threat that they want to avoid. So if
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  Speaker 3: I have a patient that has anxiety, or if I
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  Speaker 3: have a patient that has a traumatist that is triggered,
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  Speaker 3: or if I have a patient that has affect phobia,
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  Speaker 3: if I say, so what are you feeling? Tell me
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  Speaker 3: what you're feeling, go in threat, Go in threat. The
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  Speaker 3: perceived threat will increase and the defenses consciously and unconsciously
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  Speaker 3: will be increased, so they will move away. The ability
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  Speaker 3: to perceive and understand and meet the perceived threat or
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  Speaker 3: the body sensations, it will increase. So why is it
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  Speaker 3: that sometimes when we use interceptions, it is helpful and
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  Speaker 3: sometimes it is not helpful. What part does the therapist
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  Speaker 3: play in helping to up the odds for the intervention
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  Speaker 3: to be successful?
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  Speaker 2: Love it? So I was just pulling up. I wasn't distracted.
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  Speaker 2: I was just looking at the definition I want to
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  Speaker 2: give for people on the concept of introception. I just
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  Speaker 2: want to give the I want to give, like the
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  Speaker 2: generic definition of introception for anyone who's listening, who doesn't
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  Speaker 2: know or wants to actually get a refresher, Can I
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  Speaker 2: do that? Introception is the sense that allows the brain
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  Speaker 2: to receive, interpret, and integrate signals from inside the body. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: So in well, there is introception acting as an internal
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  Speaker 2: monitoring system for psychological condition. Okay, it's kind of like
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  Speaker 2: the eighth sense. It's often called like an internal sense. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason that I'm that we're sharing this right,
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  Speaker 2: sensation arising from stimuli produced within the organism, right, And
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  Speaker 2: basically what's really important for us to look at Well,
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  Speaker 2: obviously you could talk about it more. Is that we
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  Speaker 2: often talk about in introception is basically, well, we could
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  Speaker 2: talk about the difference introsection intro you want to define
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  Speaker 2: the difference between introception and introception, do you want to
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  Speaker 2: do yeah, yeah, Okay, and then we're going to talk
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  Speaker 2: about what happens, because the second piece that you're speaking about,
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  Speaker 2: which is really important, is not just the knowledge, but
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  Speaker 2: then we're going to look at the specific piece between
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  Speaker 2: therapists and client. Okay, so I want to go there.
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  Speaker 2: And then just the backdrop of.
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  Speaker 3: So introception is the felt sense, like the sensations. I
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  Speaker 3: can feel space in my body, or I can feel
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  Speaker 3: the closeness or the heaveness. I can feel boterflies in
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  Speaker 3: my stomach, or I can feel when I'm working out,
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  Speaker 3: I can feel my muscles. So the physical sense of
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  Speaker 3: what happens in my body, and introspection is reflecting upon
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  Speaker 3: like having the cognitive aspect, the meta analysis of what
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  Speaker 3: the meaning do I describe or connected this? And then
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  Speaker 3: also I want to add that there's proper reception, that
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  Speaker 3: is the understanding of the sense of my body in space.
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  Speaker 3: So if I have like a coffee mug, then I
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  Speaker 3: know I know I have seen my coff mug, and
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  Speaker 3: I can close my eyes and when I reach out
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  Speaker 3: my hand, I will grab the coffee I won't knock
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  Speaker 3: it over because I know where it is. And prop
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  Speaker 3: perception is my understanding knowledge, a sense of my body
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  Speaker 3: in space. I know how fast and I when to stop,
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  Speaker 3: and now how hard or soft I should need to grip,
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  Speaker 3: what amount of grip I need to use to raise
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  Speaker 3: this coffee cup. And the cool thing here is that
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  Speaker 3: if I think the coffee mug is full and then
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  Speaker 3: I'll raise it up and it's empty. No, it's the
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  Speaker 3: discrepancy because the propreception has this is the prediction that
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  Speaker 3: the brain makes, and it was the error prediction error,
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  Speaker 3: So oh, I need to correct and then okay, And
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  Speaker 3: then there's extraception with it, which is like I can
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  Speaker 3: see the house, I can see the now, I can
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  Speaker 3: hear you talk, I can smell, and these senses is
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  Speaker 3: what creates like the information sense my brain, and they
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  Speaker 3: meet and it is joined with like my mood and
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  Speaker 3: what I'm doing, and then they create like these predictions,
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  Speaker 3: so together they create the experience of myself and the
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  Speaker 3: world love.
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  Speaker 2: It, right, So the introception is basically like this intern
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  Speaker 2: It's almost like they talk about like babies kind of
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  Speaker 2: can feel that like a perceived sense of safety you're
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  Speaker 2: not safety. They could pick up on the mood of
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  Speaker 2: mom and dad if they're angry. Right, it's basically this
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  Speaker 2: nonverbal it's an energy, It's a feeling that you got.
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  Speaker 2: And so what we're speaking about is like, how do
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  Speaker 2: people get the sense of introception that is safe, that
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  Speaker 2: is safe or perceived safe like you said, because it
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  Speaker 2: could be safe, but if the perceived sense is not safe,
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  Speaker 2: it doesn't feel good. Interception, right, is kind of like
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  Speaker 2: the between me and others? So can I feel in connection?
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  Speaker 2: Can I feel into the space between me and others? Right?
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  Speaker 2: That is safety or disconnection? Like you said, Like introspection
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  Speaker 2: is between me and myself, and then appropriate reception is right,
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  Speaker 2: everything you're talking about like my relation to myself and
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  Speaker 2: the world. And I know your yoga therapist turn the
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  Speaker 2: uh right, yoga teacher turn therapists, and I love all
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  Speaker 2: these pieces. And Guys, the reason we're giving these definitions
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  Speaker 2: is not just because we want to be science geeky.
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  Speaker 2: It's because this directly correlates to now what we're going
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  Speaker 2: to be talking about, which is basically you. When we're
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  Speaker 2: meeting with the client, it is so incredibly important for
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  Speaker 2: us to understand where is the disconnect or what is
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  Speaker 2: the perceived experience of their bodies, their energy, themselves, perceived
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  Speaker 2: safety right in the world, the way that they understand
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  Speaker 2: themselves and then with others right. Because essentially all of
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  Speaker 2: that implicit backdrop is directly impacting, like what you said,
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  Speaker 2: am I going to be like ah right? Or it's
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  Speaker 2: like splashes on my face or I'm like grabbing for
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  Speaker 2: someone when they're right there and they can say, just
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  Speaker 2: talk to me regular, just reach for me regular, and
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  Speaker 2: I'll respond, And so it directly impacts how safe or unsafe,
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  Speaker 2: how incient, or how trusting or fearful the person feels. OK,
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  Speaker 2: So I'm just giving that backdrop. Now I want to
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  Speaker 2: talk about this piece like you were just saying, is
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  Speaker 2: when you offer somatic intervention, when you offer a somatic awareness,
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  Speaker 2: it makes a really big difference on one client, Like
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  Speaker 2: you said about the controlled study. One client can feel
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  Speaker 2: like they can take that in and be like, wow,
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  Speaker 2: so I noticed something, and another client, you're actually aggravating
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  Speaker 2: the nervous system because all they feel is lack of
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  Speaker 2: safety or all they feel into or they senses danger cues.
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  Speaker 2: So it's and it seems like right, there's a ton
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  Speaker 2: of research anyone could look at it right on introception
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  Speaker 2: or even interception, but there's not a lot of research
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  Speaker 2: on Now can we look at the specific elements of
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  Speaker 2: how that plays into the therapeutic dynamic. So can you
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  Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about what you're noticing,
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  Speaker 2: like what happens?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's different components to this. Obviously, the patient's
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  Speaker 3: previous experience this affects their ability to to aim the
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  Speaker 3: awareness and attention to their bodily sensations. But also like
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  Speaker 3: there's things that we can do as a therapist if
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  Speaker 3: I have a clear framework and I communicate this framework
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  Speaker 3: to my patient, like we're doing this and this is
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  Speaker 3: this is why, like rational in Swedish, like I'm explaining
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  Speaker 3: the reason and and and and the purpose. And here
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  Speaker 3: we have the balance that some patients are really good
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  Speaker 3: at intellectualizing. So if if I start to explain why
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  Speaker 3: and they want to give me the book, okay, so
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  Speaker 3: just just like a brief like I know why I'm
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  Speaker 3: doing this, and I want you to know so that
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: you can you don't have to you can like rest
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  Speaker 3: that part of the brain like I know why, and
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  Speaker 3: then let the it's it's a collaborative exploration where I,
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  Speaker 3: as a therapist, I suggest that this is what I
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  Speaker 3: what we're doing, and I suggest the pace. But it's
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  Speaker 3: always the patient who decides the pace. Because if I,
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  Speaker 3: as a therapist, decide the dosage, the pace, what you do,
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  Speaker 3: then the patient's nervous system it yeah, it feels like
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  Speaker 3: I can't this is going to faster me like, I
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  Speaker 3: can't affect.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't control it.
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  Speaker 3: I can't control it. Yeah yeah, so so and that
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  Speaker 3: is something that reduces safety. So if if I, as
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  Speaker 3: a therapist say okay, this is what we're doing, and
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  Speaker 3: this is why you can always at the pace. This
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  Speaker 3: is just suggesting you decide, then I increase the perceived
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  Speaker 3: safety because then the patient fail. Okay, so I can
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  Speaker 3: affect this. If it's going too fast, I can slow
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  Speaker 3: it down. If we're going somewhere that I feel I
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  Speaker 3: don't like this, I can say no. So that's a
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  Speaker 3: really important part, like the collaboration, and it also strengthen
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  Speaker 3: not only the precede safety, but it also strengthened the
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  Speaker 3: agency which we want to cultivate in our patients.
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  Speaker 2: So I love one of the things you're saying is like, look,
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  Speaker 2: we know all of this data and that sounds really nice,
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  Speaker 2: but we're not doing a constant temperature check because that's
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  Speaker 2: actually what our client's nervous system is doing. So on
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  Speaker 2: the bigger scheme of things, we're actually wanting to push
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  Speaker 2: for more perceived and felt sense, like that feeling in
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  Speaker 2: the body of safety. And how do we do that
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  Speaker 2: when we're aware of the fact that you're basically saying,
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  Speaker 2: Obviously their past experiences will direct the impact how they
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  Speaker 2: will or won't take in therapy, and so our responsibility
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  Speaker 2: is I love what you're saying is basically to say
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  Speaker 2: to give them almost like a rundown of Hey there,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to be offering some self reflection or some
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  Speaker 2: prompts and the and the reason is right, just to
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  Speaker 2: help their bring no instead of just saying check and
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  Speaker 2: side and check and side could be a member. Once
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  Speaker 2: a client said to me, did you ever watch this
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: movie called Jumanji?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Have you ever watched Ye Williams h yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's terrifying. She's like, I'm going into Jumanji. And I
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  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, do you not know we're not checking inside.
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 2: So it was like we're not so we almost have
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  Speaker 2: to orient it. There's different ways of checking inside, there's
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: different ways of even becoming aware of your skin, so
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: it doesn't just feel like you have that itching sensation
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  Speaker 2: yeah or right. So we're almost saying to them like,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: here's what we're doing and here's why we're doing it.
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  Speaker 2: So like what you said, obviously not that they're going
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to climb into their intellectual ladder, but enough information that
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: their system knows what they're doing, what we're doing and
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: why right directly linked up to their treatment goal. And
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  Speaker 2: then I love how you're saying that you're also giving
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  Speaker 2: them amazing by the way that you have this in
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  Speaker 2: your in this language agency over the treatment process, because
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: it's like you're getting to choose how much you get
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: to control the valve of how much we're allowing and
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: how little. But you us as the therapists, are incredibly clear,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: and that, I think is why is so important that
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: we do have the language and we do have the
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: somatic skills, so we are coming up as a very
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: clear and confident and grounded guide because they feel into
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that right, like if we have that energy that's calm
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  Speaker 2: and I know you speak all that nervous system work.
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  Speaker 2: Then our clients kind of and Alan Shore talks about this,
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  Speaker 2: they feel our nervous system trust and so we can
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: kind of help them as a guide while they're almost
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: like ty trating the work, but we have our finger
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: on the pulse on exactly what's going on.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's also very important because if
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I if I just say no, you do you, it's
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: too it's too big, it's too unknown, it's too unpredictable.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: So if I say, okay, so I have this suggestion again,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: not I have this thing we should do. I have
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: this suggestion like I'm inviting you let's let's explore this.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm invite you to export this and this
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: is why. Then I show that there's a there's an idea.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: I have a plan. I know what I'm doing. I
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: am the guide. It's not planless, but it's also adaptable,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: and it's also individually paced, and and and.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: H.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: The predictability and the plan and me being like I
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: know what I'm doing. This creates the safe structure and
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: the safe borders. But within these walls you can do
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: whatever you want. I got you, I got you, I
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: got you. And when you feel because when the safety
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: is increased, then the patients will start. But I want
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: to go outside the wall. Of course, let's go outside
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: the wall. It's not it's not a prison. It's just
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: that let's start here. So so it's like you can
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: overview you, you have your map, you know, you can navigate,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: but when it comes from within the patient, I want
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: to go faster. I want to go outsidside the wall. Yeah,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: of course, remove the wall. Let's go. I'm with you.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: So it's it's not about limiting them. It's it's about like, okay,
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I'm holding you. I'm with you. So we create, we
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: we cultivate the agency so that you can choose. When
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: we remove the wall, you can choose. It's like no
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: bowling when we have the and then you want to okay, down,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: I want to try, or like when when we ride
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: the bicycle and we have the support wheels and like
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: I want to show okay. So when this is like
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: my I have a pet peeve. When we see this
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: motivational like this is your safety zone and away out here,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: that's what the magic happens. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: go back to the safety zone. Because when we're when
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: we actually cultivate safety. When we increase safety, then the
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: internal motivation will increase and they will themselves say I
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: want to go outside. Of course, of course it's not
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: scary there. But when when the motivation is in strengt
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: when it comes from inside, then you the page and
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: is better equipped and have more resilience to be in
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: the unknown compared to if someone else.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I love what you're sharing. I like, am I gonna
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: pull out a paper because they always say, like, in
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: terms of therapy, this is kind of what you're referring to.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: It's like they always say where the magic happens. It's
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: almost like, right, that window of tolerance that we all
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: know about. So I'm just gonna draw this. So there's
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: these two lines, right, and people say, right, this is
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: obviously like you're in the window of tolerance. This is
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: like hyper arousal, very anxious, and this is hyper arousal
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: very depressed or down. And then here is kind of
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the optimal where we want to be. And it's so
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: interesting because people say, yeah, you have to be in
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: this zone to do the healing work, and actually, what
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say is no, you have to meet
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: the client where they're at and then the magic happens
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: when you meet them. Because the magic, and they always
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: actually say, is actually the real healing happens when we're
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: teetering on the edge, when we're teetering on the edge
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: between where we're like in the window of tolerance and
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: we're going towards this activation, or actually when we're teetering
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: on the edge of here, because really this is where
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: they're struggling. And I love what you're saying. It's like
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: you're not saying, only once we're in here and we're
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: in la la land, can we do processing. You're saying,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: go with where your client is so we can work
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: on you know, obviously going through the ups and downs.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: But really what they say is, and I love what
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, because that's developing safety, that's developing self
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: trust and capacity to be with this discomfort. And actually
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: this is what happens. And the goal is actually to
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: widen the window of tolerance. So as we work with
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: what we're doing, you're actually making their window of tolerance bigger. Right,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: It's like, we're not going to control those emotions, but
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the dysregulation that comes up around those emotions, actually it
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: doesn't throw you off as much, and so this becomes
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: less active eating because we just created a much wider
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: window of tolerance, right and.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Esther, Yes, yes, yes, yes, And this is like one
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: of the biggest Okay now now now you get me aroused.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: Okay, so okay, I'm excited because okay, two thoughts. First,
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: one of the biggest misconcept conceptions is that we should
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: always regulate and that we should always downregulate. Yeah and no, no, no,
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: that's like you can pen pencil and not write it down.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: No, big no, just because if we the only thing
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: we're practicing is to downregulate, then the only thing we
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: will be good at is to downregulate, and we will
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: only be stable or have resilience or be finer ground
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: in low arousal. What we want to do, what a
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: resilient nervous system is is a nervous system that is strong,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: capable and save the regardless of the arousal level. But
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: the thing is then we if we work with trauma,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: then the window tolerance is probably a very small window.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: So it's very small resilient and and probably it's a
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: false window up or down. So the I don't I
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: don't like to use the word the term stuck because
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: because but there's a tendency to only be at a
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: certain arousal level that we can we can phrase like that,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: so the false high window or the false low window.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: And so if we take people who are at a
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: false high level falls high window, and then we say
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: so that the temp the arousal is HIGHATAA do a
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: lot of stuff Ta da da da, And I have projects,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: and I would this an attatata Okay, sit down and
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: meditate the descripancy between the known, the comfortable, the yeah, yeah, familiar,
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: thank you, the familiar arousal and what I'm saying, the
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: telling the patient to do it is too large of
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: a discrepancy. So the nervous system will call this as alarm, alarm, alarm,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: we're crashing. No no, no, get up, get up, get up,
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: get up, And they would actually increase the arousal to
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: get back to your familiar level. So we need to Okay,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: so you have a high arousal, maybe you have a
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: false window. Okay, let's go out and run. Let's push
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: each other's hands. That puts the.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Love you're like me the arousal level. It's like the
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: whole reason why telling people to calm down does not work.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Don't tell me to meet PA. Don't tell me to
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: calm down. If I have this activation, meet me there, yes,
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: and then help widen or make more right, like allow
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: me to have the panic and the fear, but how
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: allow my nervous system to not feel as aggravated by
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: it exactly, but that I can move through this better.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: Because also if I meet you where you're at, it's
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: familiar and it it's it's maybe comfortable or maybe, but
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: it's still it's familiar. So so the nervous system chooses
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: the hallib nose before the like angel doesn't know and
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: then okay, so you're not. And we also we skip
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: the because so many people feel like they fail because
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: they can't meditate or they feel because they feel like
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: they fail because they can to X y Z. So
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: if I meet you where you are and like, okay, again,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: cultivate the aid agency and you get to choose. Okay,
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: so what do you want to do? Oh what I
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: like to do? Ten squads? Okay, let's do ten squads.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: And also when we have done this extortion and we
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: have activated, we have like you know, been strong, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: then the the natural thing programmed in our nervous system.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: After we have strength in our muscle or use the
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: muscle is to down regulate, So there will come an
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: own self regulation that maybe maybe not to the to
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the optimal tolerance we know, but a small step down.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I can feel like I'm less tense in
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: my shoulders. Ah awesome, Okay, you want to stay with that?
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Oh this is really pleasant. Oh maybe you want to
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: sit down? Oh okay, yes, okay, And then we provide
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: the patient with another experience that because if we're up there,
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: we don't feel like I can't I can't relax, I
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: can't relax. That's like the narrative. But yeah, we just
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: created that. You can't really giving them.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're saying to them like we're gonna follow your
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: innrvous system's pathway. And that's often what's a missing experience.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Like they always talking tomatic work, and it's almost like
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: I'll meet you there and I will also be a
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: guide and I will follow because there's always you know,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: they always say in trauma work, it's like like, don't
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: go to what's distressing, But then they also say, if
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the client's already distressed, go there because avoiding it or
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: trying to compartmentalize or to com them. It's not gonna
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: help if they're already activated. And so I love how
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: you're saying. It's actually if you mean, it's almost like validation. Imagine,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: tell me how stressed you are, and I keep telling
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: asking you about the spot instead of me like meeting
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you in the stress. Yeah, helping to coregulate, meet you there,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: and then there is going to be a point where
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: your body settles down and you're right, maybe it's going
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: to be five percent, and maybe the numbers will look
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: at sexy on my notes, but what looks a lot
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: healthier for your nervous system is you're having the experience
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: of five percent less activation. And you're starting to notice
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: that when you're understood or when you could actually express
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: what that sensation or whatever emotion is, you actually can
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: settle a little bit. And so you're already learning the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: capacity there. And I love what you're sharing because I
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: think it's like the I think it's also the wisdom
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and the capacity for the therapist to tolerate and to know, like,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: how can we work with this activation and what are
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Obviously there's different skills and tools for therapists to use
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: when a client is in the hyper activation versus hypo
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: and offering tools or even connection in that space. And
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: obviously I know for some clients like people think over here,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: but here is kind of like where we want them
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: to be. And I love what you're saying. The magic
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: actually happens on the journey. Now, they say, like, I
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: want to get to where I want to get to.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: All of us feel that way, right, We all have goals,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: and we often forget that the journey is where the
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: magic happens. Our clients are journeying through life. You and
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I were journeying through life. And if somebody can teach
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: us like, actually, the magic is happening when you're here.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: The magic is happening when you're here. The magic is
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: going to happen when you're here. I want you to
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: actually learn to feel more safe in your body and
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: in connection with self and other and the world. When
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: you're in these spaces, it's really uncomfortable. But the magic
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: is happening on your journey down and back up because
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: we're learning the most golden information about you and this
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: builds trust. Yeah, they might hang out here, and you
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: know what, it's funny because I wrote that book on
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: emd R for anxiety and one of my friends was like, so,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: does that mean you never have anxiety? And I said, no,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it means that I am a person who's conscious of
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: my nervous system, and I have a responsibility to myself
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: to keep tweaking and aligning because what worked from to
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: regulate the anxiety in my teens or twenties or thirties
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: is different than what I'm going to need in my forties,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: fifties and sixties. My child's needs, my personal needs, my
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: professional needs. Like no, this is like can I be
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: aware of the templates that keep shifting? And I love
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: how you're saying this stuff. I guess I wonder if
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: we could just kind of if could we give a
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: sample or could you give a sample of the difference
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: between It doesn't have to be from your research, Like
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: is there a sample of what a therapist might do
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: when they are aware or tapped into the safety for
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: the client or introception for the client versus not, like
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: what are the what are the differences that you're noticing?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Or yeah, and how its clinical work?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think an important thing here is to be
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: aware as a therapist of my own tolerance of sensations
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: and anxiety, because how much I can stay with it
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: also depends on how how I can join, how how
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: long I can join, or how to which extent I
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: can follow my patient, because if I as a therapist,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: I value some reactions more than others, I value some
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: emotions more than others, And then I think that I
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: will have like this unconscious agenda like you should cry,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: you should scream when you should you should do this this,
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: this is how you should emote, and this is how
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: you should process your emotions. So so that's I think
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: one of the most important things is too okay. So
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm not only saying that I invite you. I'm
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: I actually mean it, like this is a suggestion and
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: if you want to go there, as they go there,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: if you when when I work with my patients, it's
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: like okay, so if they start to notice thing and
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: I say okay, So imagine it's a pool. If you want,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: you can die dive into the pool. You can like
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: be totally be with the sensation and emotions, or you
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: can stay on the edge and watch the pool, or
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: it can go outside, like just watch the building. Like
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: you decide how much you want to approach be with
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: the sensations and emotions. And again I'm like reiterating the agency.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: You get to choose, you get to control the pace.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I'm here. If you want to go in the pool
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: like I'm Baywatch baby, I will get you. I like,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: you're not lost, you won't drown. But if you don't
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: want to go in there, then don't go in there.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: It's like, then we do it next time or maybe
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: the time after that, with like there is no urgency,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: there's no there's no external time schedule that we need
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: to follow. You design the time schedule, and that also
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: increases the imperceived safety that I can do this in
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: my pace. I'm not I'm not slow, I'm not broken,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing anything wrong. I can I can choose,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: And yeah, that creates so much safety.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I feel like I need to underline, like, if there's
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: anything anyone gets from this besides for some knowledge, if
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: there's one golden tidbit exists honestly, Veronica, because at the
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: end of the day, and everyone says this, it's really
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: like our nervous system and our capacity and who we
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: are as humans that will dictate our client's clinical outcomes
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and how they can get to experience themselves and the
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: world and safety and okayness. And I love how what
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: you just said, because what essentially you're saying is, can
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: you the therapist tolerate? Can you the therapist celebrate? Can
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: you the therapist hold? Can you the therapist be with
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: no matter what happens in today's session, tomorrow, sessions, any sessions,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: because success is not success if it doesn't actually create
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: more felt sense safety. And what I'm hearing you say
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is it's interesting somatically. I remember in a training we
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: were learning and I teach this as well, right, like
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: when a client is stuck in a trauma state or
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: a trauma time and there's a somatic intervention of kind
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: of pulling the client out, or if somebody feels like
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: they were stuck in a grass or a reach and
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: they really needed an adult or someone to reach for
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: them and they could put their hands in And with
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: clients who are more anxiously attached, they will often go
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: for that reach. The clients who are more avoidantly attached
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: or afraid, they will not go for that reach. And
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of the pieces that's important is like you
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: still need to offer whatever you need to offer as
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: a secure attachment regardless of what your client says or
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: your client wants, because they are always tracking. That's the safety.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Remember when selling to a client, she was all alone
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and there was a certain core belief somatically and emotionally.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: And I said, I wonder if it would be all
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: right for us to try an experiment. And I'll tell
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: you what the experiment is, and if you want it, great,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: if not, imagine a garbage bucket right next to you
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: and just let it trash right there. And I said,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I want to actually reach for. I want to take
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: my hands and I'm going to show you with I'll
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: tell you first of my words, and then with my hands.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I want to reach for that young girl who felt
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: so alone, and she doesn't have to reach back to me.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I just want her to notice, in her little body,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: and for you to notice in your forty seven year
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: old body, what it's like for me when I say this,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and if it's okay when I go for that reach,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: just what happens. You don't have to reach back, okay?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And so then I slowly kind of like went for
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: the reach and put my hands out and her own stuff,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: her own fullbic avoidance of her in your experience came
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: up of like you don't want to, or why would
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: you want to? Whatever it was. I think I've shared
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: this a few times and she was like, but I
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: don't know and I don't want you and I said,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: you totally don't have to. I am totally fine, Like anyway,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: I think I told you, like I said, I can
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: reach my hands as many times as I want or
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: as I need or as just to experiment what happens inside.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I think I shared it was like three or four
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: sessions later. She said I think I'm ready and I
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: said ready for a lunch. She's like for you to
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: go for that reach and I said, okay, and I
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: just want to remind you you don't have to reach
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: your hands back out. Let's just notice what's happening inside.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And she got very emotional. She eventually did go back
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: for the reach right, and she put her hands in
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: and she was bowling. And I reason I bring this
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: up was me tolerating I look like a dufas or
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: it doesn't actually matter, and there's magic happening in the
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: fact that she's even noticing that someone is reaching because
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: that's secure attachment. Right, Secure attachment is you saying to
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: your partner or your child, hey, I'm ready to have
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: the conversation about what happened that upset you so much.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Whenever you're ready and not needing to control, they might say,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: well I'm not ready, Okay, well you know what I am.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Whenever you are right. And I love that you're saying this, Veranda,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: because that's really our internal world of can you feel confident?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: What do you need to feel to embody that secure base.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: You don't have to come to your colleagues tomorrow and
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: be like, wow, I had the most breaked recession. Like
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I actually had a session with a client the other
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: day and I was like, this is not going anywhere,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know what, just just go with them.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: And we had the most profound session, Like the last
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: five minutes. The client ended up opening something up and
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: I'm like it's because I let go and I was like,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: let me just in whatever. So I love what you're saying, honestly,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: vern a commiss because that is the magic, right.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: And I think like we also, like in our profession,
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: of course, we want to to help our patients and
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: like give this revolutionary I heal you like this is
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: my one everything is fine, but that's not the work.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: That's not how it works. And if I can tolerate
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: sometimes being clueless or like, if I can tolerate okay,
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: so this is the pace that it's going in, then
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: I won't insist that. Then the patient will actually feel
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: like it's okay for me to not get it or
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: not go for the reach or like not nothing happened
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: quote unquote today, but it was good work because we
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: did the.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Work, and so my intention and my capacity to stay
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: with it's it's so it's super sin.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I love that, And I also want to say I
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: think it actually a lot is happening. I think we
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: sometimes as human beings, especially in like today's generation, but
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I think therapists, at the end of the day, we
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: are all wounded healers. We all have some unconscious agenda
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: of wanting to help people heal, and I think it
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: asks us to renegotiate. And I'm excited to find your
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: research as well. I think it's renegotiating what our role
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: really is. I know I learned this again and again
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: and again as a mom, Like I'm humbled every day
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: because I don't care about the scientific research. I don't
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: care about how much knowledge I have. We know this
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: right in our relationships, in our lives, we're always learning
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: new things. And I think there's something about the magic
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: is unfolding and the information is actually happening. The fact
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: that you're able to reject the fact that you're on
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: your rest, the fact that you know and you know
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: what if it takes ten sessions or it takes six months,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: or it takes a year, and there is these small
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: moments of shifts that are happening because they feel safer
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: in their body regardless of what it looked like. That's incredible,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: And I think it's us also being able to obviously,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: like I think what we both know is getting our
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: own good mentorship, being in our own counseling learning tools,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: so we feel confident and we know that we're doing
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: good work regardless of the shape, size, profundity of the session.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I think that's really the important piece. And also bringing
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: our clients along for the journey and really trusting, right,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: like trusting their pacing and trusting in the work. And yeah,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I think that's actually one of like the most That's
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: what I've learned, Like I'm like to me, like having
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: good mentorship, having good people supporting me, having good peers
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and colleagues, and reflecting on my own self, I think
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: is what allows then the work to unfold. But tell me,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: because I know I'm being mindful of time, tell me
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: if there's one or two tips or one piece of information,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: because I know so much of this can sound esoteric
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: and like practical level, Like what's like a one piece
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: of information or one tool that you would tell a
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: younger therapist to a newer therapist that wants to be
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: able to develop more of that safety between them and
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: our and our clients. What would you say?
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: So I would if you want to explore how to
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: involve the body in the therapy room, then like go
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: to the hands and the feet because there's they are
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: usually not loaded, not triggering for the for the patients,
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: and like for yourself, you know that they're safe, so like, yeah,
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: you just massage your hands, just like wiggle your toes
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: because then you can also as a therapist, you can
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: set the pace for yourself. So it's not about okay,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: let's go in the deep emotions and like let's scream
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: and let's cry, because then when the when the patient
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: have their emotional reaction, they're like, oh my god, what
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: am I doing? Do this correct? And so so like
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: create for yourself the best context, like like you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: set the table for the optimal way for you to
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: start to practice because there and and yes, I'm seeing things.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: I'm seeing things not not like you know, visually.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'm just trying to put that in you know,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: Swedish and English. And I think that sometimes or like
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: the most of the times that the biggest challenge I
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: hear from therapists is that I think that it's like
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: difficult to use the body like it should be like
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: these extreme explicit actions or movements or like exercises, and
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: it's just like notice your feet, notice your hands. It
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: doesn't have to be complicated, just because our patients so
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: many of them, Oh oh I have hands, Oh oh
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: I have feet, Like it doesn't have to be difficult,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be like grandiose. It's just aim
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: their attention to the body and to explore it. Again
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: also like be be transparent. Okay, So like I'm not
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: sure how this will how you will react. So I'm
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: thinking we can start with our hands and our feet
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: and just see we can stay there. So again the
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: co creation.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love it you're saying all of
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: this in terms of like go with what's like neutral, right,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: go with just something so simple like your hands, right.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Somatic practice is very simple of like hands and feet.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: And I also think that what you're speaking about, maybe
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: we could have another conversation about this another time, is
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: so much of somatic where people think it's like what
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Peter Levine talks about like an act of triumph, because
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: obviously when our clients are stuck in like fight, flight, free, submit,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: or attach, usually there's like the fight that was inhibited.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: So sometimes we want to go for like a void
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: a words coming out of the throat, or a push
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: or a flight is kind of like stuck and you
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: want to kind of help them move their body and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: their feet. But like what I think a lot of
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: people forget about is the developmental piece exactly what you're
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: speaking about, which pat Ogden talks about in terms of
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: somatic sequencing and somatic sequencing are the much slower movements,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: the much slower processing of Wow. So there's like a
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: little tingling in my hands. It's almost like I just
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I'm just feeling like I'm actually noticing a little bit
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: of like a raw or warmth in my arms that
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: can be just as powerful or more powerful then pushing
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: for a big act of triumph. I shock trauma, developmental trauma,
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: which is most of our clients when it comes to
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: lack of safety, lack of attumin not you know, really
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: not feeling like they're okay or worthy or whatever it is. Right,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: the themes of like safety, belonging responsibility and worthy right
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: safety belonging, worthiness, responsibility, some of those more subtle themes
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: are actually going to work with, Like and I feel
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: my chest tightening, so just notice the tightness and the loosening,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: like these small consistent sensations. It's not like I've seen
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: how clients will hold themselves up straight, are or they
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: feel calmer in their belly, And it's not those like
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: overnight booms. So I think that's the whole. I love
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: what you're speaking about. It's like, I think what we're
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: speaking about is the small actually becomes the big, and
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: can you actually create the small elements that actually create
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: the big elements of safety and are completely why not
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: all therapy is equal, right, clients can go to like
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: you're talking about the control study or not controlled study.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: If there is safety and there's an understanding for the
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: therapist and how to cultivate safety, that client will have
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: a completely different experience in therapy and in their lives
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: than the therapist who might have similar training but doesn't
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: have that nuanced awareness.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is there any last pointer word or quote that
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you will leave our listeners to before you share how
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: people could find you or follow you? Any last thoughts?
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Allow yourself to be curious, just as we encourage our
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: patients to be curious, and instead of being the detective
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: or instead of being the judge and referee, be detective,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: like what can we find here? So if you have
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: a curiosity for your patients' reactions or sensation or capacity
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: to explore, then again this is what creates or or
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: contributes to the perceived safety.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Love that I love you saying curiosity, because sometimes we
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: unconsciously like guide people and it's like, don't like ask
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: questions or know yes, that's a lot of the somatic work,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: but kind of gather the data that they are sharing
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: versus what you have in hypotheses about Yeah, obviously, when
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: you deepen the somatic work, you know what to touch
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: on what to hypothesize about that. I love what you're
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: saying about the curiosity. I love that so much, Veronica.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I love this conversation. I still appreciate I'm with.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: You so grateful Esther, Yeah, thank you.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I love I actually want to just say like, I
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: appreciate you and how much effort and energy it takes
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: to do the translation. I want to name that because
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like that that's a real piece. Tell us
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: how people can find you if you want to follow
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: your work or find you.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so Veronica love a book on inst My
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: web page is don't get over a book. Book, that's say.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: I also have a podcast in Swedish so for together
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: cyclogie or embodied psychology, and I'm starting a training in
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: nervous system regulations for professionals. So if you're a coach
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: or therapist psychologist in Sweden or Norway or Finland and Denmark,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: you can find me and we practice this. So it's
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: very like a very practical training, not just talking, not
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: just because you know, we need the body as the
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: way and as the vehicle for exploration. So I'm super
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: stoked to find more professionals in Sweden to collaborate with
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: and to share and explore and expand this work.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: I love that, Veronica, I love speaking with you. I
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: love the work that you're doing. I'm really excited about
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: the wisdom that you're sharing with professionals to deepen this
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: like nervous system piece, because at the end of the day,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: the more we embody it, like you and I, the
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: more we kind of could share the knowledge and actually
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: trickle down to our families. I loved on our workplaces
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: and our communities, and then there's just so much more
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: felt and safety. Thank you so much for being on here,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: and I look forward to speaking with you soon.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.