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Understanding Overlanding: Defining the Adventure · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:04
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
0:08
Speaker 1: host Scott Brady, and I am here with my co
0:11
Speaker 1: host Matt Scott. What's going on, everyone, and talk about
0:15
Speaker 1: an interesting question, which is what is overlanding?
0:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is actually overlanding?
0:23
Speaker 1: And I think that now more than ever it is
0:26
Speaker 1: appropriate to talk about it. When we first started defining
0:31
Speaker 1: that back in two thousand and six and two thousand
0:34
Speaker 1: and seven, we spent a lot of time pulling the
0:38
Speaker 1: overlanders of the day, the people who had driven around
0:41
Speaker 1: the world and the people who had cross continents and
0:44
Speaker 1: done major expeditions, to get their insights into what overlanding
0:48
Speaker 1: meant to them. And from that we curated our own
0:52
Speaker 1: definition from that, and I think it's most important to
0:55
Speaker 1: say two things before we even get started. First off,
1:00
Speaker 1: I do not protest to know the answer completely to
1:03
Speaker 1: this question. And even though I have experience, I do
1:07
Speaker 1: not position myself as having all of the experience necessary
1:10
Speaker 1: to define this. This is as a result of lots
1:14
Speaker 1: of conversations with lots of individuals. This is not a
1:17
Speaker 1: definition that I'm coming up to on my own, or
1:20
Speaker 1: is Matt coming up to on his own. I mean,
1:22
Speaker 1: I have one and we're going to hear Matt's in
1:26
Speaker 1: just a minute. But I think that if we start
1:29
Speaker 1: from that position of knowledge, of trying to gain and
1:33
Speaker 1: understand knowledge, that's where we were when Jonathan Hanson and
1:37
Speaker 1: Graham Jackson and myself worked together to create the definition
1:42
Speaker 1: that we had to overland journal dot com for what
1:45
Speaker 1: is overlanding, and as a result of that effort, it's
1:48
Speaker 1: certainly the most popular page on the interwebs about the
1:52
Speaker 1: answer to that question. Again, we're not saying that we're
1:55
Speaker 1: the only definition, but the important thing is to recognize
1:59
Speaker 1: the two things, which is overlanding is growing rapidly and
2:04
Speaker 1: it's changing rapidly, which means that in my mind, the
2:07
Speaker 1: definition does not change. The description of it may change.
2:12
Speaker 1: How people describe their activity of overlanding may change. So
2:16
Speaker 1: that's the first thing I think is that the definition
2:17
Speaker 1: doesn't really change. It doesn't get gentrified, it doesn't get
2:20
Speaker 1: reduced to something elemental just to appeal to a larger audience.
2:25
Speaker 1: The definition is what the definition is, just like any
2:27
Speaker 1: other word or any other saying. There are definitions, and
2:31
Speaker 1: that's important to have because it gives us something to
2:33
Speaker 1: work from, and it's also important for me, at least personally,
2:38
Speaker 1: to come at this from a real place of humility,
2:40
Speaker 1: recognizing that I only know a fraction of what I
2:44
Speaker 1: want to know about the subject. So what we're going
2:46
Speaker 1: to talk about today is all of the information that
2:49
Speaker 1: we've gathered and also some things that can influence the
2:53
Speaker 1: way that people define it. So just from the start,
2:56
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that any cognitive biases that
2:59
Speaker 1: I may have are certainly laid out on the table.
3:02
Speaker 1: By me traveling around the world and crossing continents and
3:06
Speaker 1: doing it for months or years at a time, that
3:09
Speaker 1: can influence my view of the definition of overlanding, and
3:13
Speaker 1: maybe I make it sound too difficult or even unfortunately
3:17
Speaker 1: if it comes across this way as elitist, which is
3:20
Speaker 1: not my goal. But what I want to do is
3:22
Speaker 1: try to find a balance between the two and questions
3:25
Speaker 1: that we can ask ourselves to define if we are
3:27
Speaker 1: actually overlanding, because it's okay to say that, hey, we're
3:31
Speaker 1: just camping, or it's okay to say we're just four wheeling.
3:34
Speaker 1: So we're going to kind of come at it from
3:35
Speaker 1: that perspective. When you look at just the general definition
3:39
Speaker 1: of overlanding or overland it was used by the Australians
3:42
Speaker 1: a long time ago, before there was even cars.
3:45
Speaker 2: Overland are four by four magazine going back to Man
3:48
Speaker 2: the seventies, I want.
3:49
Speaker 1: To that's right, Yeah, so those things have been around
3:51
Speaker 1: a long time and the Australians called overland, called it
3:55
Speaker 1: overland because they were going overland with their cattle, and
3:58
Speaker 1: that was really where the term took on some general use,
4:01
Speaker 1: and it's been used in many forms since then. But
4:05
Speaker 1: we do need to understand those biases that can come
4:08
Speaker 1: into play, which means that we need to always assess
4:11
Speaker 1: the level of skills and the level of experience of
4:14
Speaker 1: the messenger. And Matt's going to talk about that a
4:17
Speaker 1: little bit when it comes to the industry, but I'm
4:20
Speaker 1: going to talk about that specifically. If you read an
4:23
Speaker 1: article about what is overlanding, or you listen to someone
4:26
Speaker 1: talk about what is overlanding, first ask what is their experience?
4:31
Speaker 1: Have they genuinely done long distance multi month or multi year?
4:37
Speaker 2: I think that that's so important because when I look
4:41
Speaker 2: at what is overlanding and I have this conversation, I mean,
4:44
Speaker 2: it is the kind of conversation that most overland travelers
4:48
Speaker 2: end up getting to after four point twenty five beers.
4:52
Speaker 2: But what I've noticed is that people who have traveled
4:56
Speaker 2: internationally in vehicles often come to the same conclusion as
5:00
Speaker 2: to what overlanding is a lot sooner than people who
5:03
Speaker 2: have not extensively traveled internationally right vehicles. When I have
5:07
Speaker 2: conversations with Dan Grek or Briand or or any of
5:09
Speaker 2: these guys that are my friends that we're hanging out
5:11
Speaker 2: and we're just chatting, you know, the conversation lasts about
5:14
Speaker 2: five minutes. We move on and we say, overlanding is travel.
5:18
Speaker 2: And I think that if you haven't really experienced that
5:22
Speaker 2: international travel community, it may just mean something drastically different
5:27
Speaker 2: to you. It's so it's such a subjective and internal definition,
5:32
Speaker 2: right because it's cool right now. Overlanding is cool? Yeah,
5:35
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, you see some like random
5:38
Speaker 2: French couple that's driving in a Citron douchevo or something
5:42
Speaker 2: down the Pan American Highway, and then again this is
5:45
Speaker 2: where it separates, Like I'm going to look at that
5:47
Speaker 2: and be like, oh man, look at that overland travel
5:48
Speaker 2: or look at that person traveling. Look at that where
5:51
Speaker 2: somebody here, maybe in the United States, like maybe a
5:57
Speaker 2: newer overlander that hasn't had the experience of traveling overseas
6:01
Speaker 2: might just not even recognize that as an overlander because
6:04
Speaker 2: they're not in a tacoma, doesn't have big tires, doesn't
6:07
Speaker 2: have suspension, it doesn't have this. And I think that
6:10
Speaker 2: it's important to recognize that overlanding is an activity. It
6:14
Speaker 2: is something that you do. It isn't something that you build. Right,
6:17
Speaker 2: the vehicle own over our own. Like everything that makes
6:21
Speaker 2: me an overlander and everything that makes God an overlander,
6:24
Speaker 2: I mean, can't be purchased. Like the vehicles we drive.
6:28
Speaker 2: It literally don't matter. It matter, Like I mean, I
6:32
Speaker 2: love vehicles, and I'm a vehicle enthusiast, But the vehicle
6:36
Speaker 2: and enthusiasts side of me is different than the overlander
6:39
Speaker 2: side of me. The overlander wants to travel. The overlander
6:41
Speaker 2: wants to experience cultures. The overlander, you know, wants to
6:44
Speaker 2: see the world. And maybe I just don't know what
6:47
Speaker 2: that portion of me that wants to lift the truck
6:50
Speaker 2: and do all of these modifications to them is that overlanding,
6:55
Speaker 2: don't I don't know if that is even the essential
6:57
Speaker 2: part of it. I don't know if that is the
6:58
Speaker 2: defining characteristic.
7:00
Speaker 1: It's the jeep wave of overlanding, right, It's the I mean,
7:03
Speaker 1: I recognize that within myself. When I first started, when
7:06
Speaker 1: I had traveled less, I tended to do more vehicle modifications.
7:10
Speaker 1: So my vehicles were far more modified and far more
7:14
Speaker 1: complex when I had not traveled a lot, because I
7:17
Speaker 1: think I was planning for the eventualities that I didn't
7:20
Speaker 1: know would or wouldn't exist. So I think I over
7:24
Speaker 1: prepared it like the boy scout would do. And also
7:26
Speaker 1: there's a there's a degree of being honest with ourselves
7:30
Speaker 1: of like sometimes the vehicle is our jeep wave. It's
7:34
Speaker 1: it's the like I've got a snorkel and I've got
7:36
Speaker 1: this and that that defines me as an overlander. And
7:40
Speaker 1: I don't know that there's anything wrong with that as
7:42
Speaker 1: long as as long as people are honest about it.
7:44
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about on this podcast of Needs
7:48
Speaker 1: Versus Wants. Matt's really good about reminding us of that.
7:51
Speaker 1: And I think if you just say, you know, I
7:53
Speaker 1: really want something that looks this cool, and I don't
7:56
Speaker 1: actually have a lot of time to travel yet, because
7:58
Speaker 1: I'm right in the middle of a startup, and I'll
8:00
Speaker 1: be lucky if I get to go for a weekend.
8:03
Speaker 1: I respect that because the person's being really honest. Where
8:06
Speaker 1: we start to get concerned is where someone goes to
8:09
Speaker 1: the local campground for a night and they say that
8:12
Speaker 1: they're overlanding. Just say, I'm going car camping in my family,
8:16
Speaker 1: and like, I go camping in the Prescott National Forest
8:20
Speaker 1: all the time, and I would never call it overlanding.
8:22
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm excited to go camping. I'm going
8:25
Speaker 1: to go car camping this weekend. I'm going to set
8:26
Speaker 1: up a tent, I'm going to make a fire, I'm
8:28
Speaker 1: going to make some s'mores, and I'm just going to
8:31
Speaker 1: call it what it is. If I go out, if
8:32
Speaker 1: I go out driving a technical trail for the day,
8:35
Speaker 1: I don't say that I'm overlanding. I say that I'm
8:37
Speaker 1: four wheeling, just because that's actually what I'm doing. It
8:41
Speaker 1: may be in my overland vehicle that I'm doing that,
8:43
Speaker 1: but I think it's just really important to kind.
8:45
Speaker 2: Of call it what it is exactly, and you just
8:47
Speaker 2: hit on something. You can have an overland vehicle. You
8:50
Speaker 2: can have your North American Spec Defender one ten that
8:54
Speaker 2: is the iconic. You can have the Tacoma. That is
8:57
Speaker 2: the practical. Whatever you drive, it doesn't actually matter, right,
9:02
Speaker 2: Like you can go car camping out of an overland vehicle.
9:04
Speaker 2: You can go road tripping out of an overland vehicle.
9:07
Speaker 2: You can go rock crolling out of an overland vehicle,
9:10
Speaker 2: and yep, some regards. You can go formuling out of
9:12
Speaker 2: an overland vehicle. Just because you're driving something with a
9:15
Speaker 2: roof rack and a snorkel and a tent that may
9:17
Speaker 2: have overland modifications to it doesn't mean what you're doing
9:22
Speaker 2: has to be called that, right. I think that that's
9:24
Speaker 2: just an important thing. Like I don't know how many
9:26
Speaker 2: overland influencers that I'm friends with that yeah, they haven't
9:31
Speaker 2: even left the country and they're scared to like they
9:34
Speaker 2: won't go to Mexico with me. And I'm telling people, hey, man,
9:36
Speaker 2: I will take you to Baja. Let's get your toes wet,
9:39
Speaker 2: let's do something. And I actually I have to say,
9:43
Speaker 2: what is the validity of calling yourself an overlander if
9:48
Speaker 2: you're not interested in travel? I think that's where I
9:51
Speaker 2: was going with that is is if the goal for
9:53
Speaker 2: you isn't travel, if the goal for you is conquering
9:56
Speaker 2: specific trails. If you're an overlander, I think it is.
10:00
Speaker 1: Travel, right, it really is, and and that was kind
10:03
Speaker 1: of the the definition that we came to Jonathan did
10:07
Speaker 1: and Graham Jackson and myself over yeah decades.
10:12
Speaker 2: So two definitions, one in the same right. So the
10:15
Speaker 2: simple definition is vehicle dependent adventure travel. That's that's so simple.
10:20
Speaker 2: It's broad enough, but it's specific enough. The thorough definition
10:24
Speaker 2: is vehicle supported, self reliant adventure travel, typically exploring remote
10:29
Speaker 2: locations and interacting with other cultures. Culture That is a
10:34
Speaker 2: big part of it. It really, it really is. And
10:38
Speaker 2: I think that either definition is okay. The one that
10:41
Speaker 2: is a little more thorough I think helps provide some
10:45
Speaker 2: additional context. And that's where the concern around saying something
10:50
Speaker 2: like vehicle dependent travel and make that just be a definition.
10:53
Speaker 2: I think that could be descriptive, but it's actually not
10:56
Speaker 2: a definition because it can't be used outside of context.
10:59
Speaker 2: So like, for example, I've been saying vehicle dependent travel
11:02
Speaker 2: since two thousand and nine, but I would never use
11:04
Speaker 2: it as a way to purely define overlanding in and
11:07
Speaker 2: of itself, because it needs to be within the context
11:09
Speaker 2: of overlanding. So that's why I like to say, vehicle
11:12
Speaker 2: dependent adventure travel, because if it's just vehicle dependent travel,
11:16
Speaker 2: maybe you're maybe you're just doing a road trip to
11:18
Speaker 2: go see your grandma, you know. I mean, if you
11:20
Speaker 2: think about it as ad as this is all over
11:23
Speaker 2: and tested negatives, that's right, yeah, yeah, but there's nothing
11:27
Speaker 2: wrong with a road trip, but call it a road trip.
11:30
Speaker 1: So I think that it's been really important to have
11:32
Speaker 1: context and to make the definition as thorough as possible.
11:35
Speaker 1: But what the definition that we tend to use, and
11:37
Speaker 1: we've used since two thousand and nine is vehicle dependent
11:42
Speaker 1: or vehicle supported adventure travel. And I think that that works.
11:46
Speaker 1: It's worked well for us and our listeners. We would
11:49
Speaker 1: love your feedback if you feel it needs to be
11:51
Speaker 1: something different. We would love to continue to evaluate and
11:54
Speaker 1: incorporate that quorum of travelers. But in our conversations with
11:58
Speaker 1: Dan Grek and with Rambell and Tom Shepherd and Chris
12:02
Speaker 1: Scott and all these luminaries of the industry, that was
12:06
Speaker 1: kind of what we came to as the most efficient
12:10
Speaker 1: definition of overlanding, which I think kind of leads to
12:15
Speaker 1: a couple questions. And Matt and I talked about this
12:17
Speaker 1: and we kind of worked it out because some of
12:20
Speaker 1: the things are Well, now that I know the definition,
12:22
Speaker 1: how do I know that I'm actually still how do
12:23
Speaker 1: I know that I'm actually overlanding? I think it's kind
12:26
Speaker 1: of helpful to ask the right questions. So the first
12:30
Speaker 1: question would be, am I traveling remote? Which means am
12:33
Speaker 1: I getting days away? Potentially by vehicle where the consequences
12:38
Speaker 1: of the vehicle stopping working or if you get stuck
12:41
Speaker 1: and you need to walk out, You actually are starting
12:43
Speaker 1: to get remote. You're not within, you don't have cell
12:46
Speaker 1: phone coverage, and you can't see.
12:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a big difference between the Skeleton Coast where
12:52
Speaker 2: we were, yeah, about a month or two ago, and Moab.
12:55
Speaker 2: Like Moab is a town that is in the middle
12:57
Speaker 2: of nowhere, but it is a town. There are service
13:00
Speaker 2: is there. I mean like Hell's Revenge is not overlanding.
13:02
Speaker 1: Guys, But you can from Moab. You can start heading
13:05
Speaker 1: towards canyon lands and you can get you can get
13:07
Speaker 1: super remote. Lockhart Basin comes to mind as one, and
13:12
Speaker 1: you can get days away from help.
13:14
Speaker 2: And in that case, i'le Swell is like Moab, but
13:18
Speaker 2: without without people.
13:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in that case, in my mind, you're absolutely overlanding.
13:22
Speaker 1: So the next question is am I experiencing a culture
13:26
Speaker 1: unique from my own? So now each one of these
13:28
Speaker 1: questions can be independent. So that means you may not
13:31
Speaker 1: be remote, but you're in another country and you're experiencing
13:34
Speaker 1: a new culture. If you're experiencing a new culture and
13:37
Speaker 1: you're traveling by vehicle, then I would say that qualifies
13:41
Speaker 1: as overlanding.
13:42
Speaker 2: What do you think on that, Matt, It's an integral
13:44
Speaker 2: part of it to me. I mean I travel overland
13:47
Speaker 2: for culture and for food. Yeah, you know, that's that's
13:51
Speaker 2: that's pretty much it. I mean I love going to
13:53
Speaker 2: really remote places, but I kind of like to connect
13:56
Speaker 2: taco shops by the most rugged ways possible in Baja.
13:59
Speaker 2: That's the way, totally, That's absolutely the way to do it.
14:02
Speaker 1: The next question, question number three, am I visiting an
14:05
Speaker 1: under explored or underdocumented region? And that's a cool way
14:09
Speaker 1: to incorporate overlanding into your local area. Where like a
14:14
Speaker 1: great example of this are the guys that have done
14:16
Speaker 1: a lot of the traveling in Vermont. It's really hard
14:20
Speaker 1: to get remote in Vermont. It's really hard to experience
14:22
Speaker 1: a new culture. But you can find a new trail
14:25
Speaker 1: that connects two villages together, and you can do research,
14:28
Speaker 1: and you can go to the library, and you can
14:30
Speaker 1: patch these trails together to create something that is a
14:33
Speaker 1: genuine journey of new experiences and is under explored or
14:37
Speaker 1: maybe underdocumented. And that's a way to also incorporate overlanding
14:42
Speaker 1: into an area that's more local. And then the next
14:45
Speaker 1: question is the last one, number four, is am I
14:48
Speaker 1: traveling self supported in unfamiliar territories for multiple days, weeks, months.
14:53
Speaker 2: Or years.
14:55
Speaker 1: So for example, you may not be remote at all.
14:57
Speaker 1: You may be traveling for ten years with your family,
15:00
Speaker 1: but you're traveling in that douchevo so you don't really
15:03
Speaker 1: leave an asphalt road for the most part. But you've
15:07
Speaker 1: been traveling around the world for years, so you've added
15:10
Speaker 1: the element of time, and you've added the element of unfamiliarity,
15:14
Speaker 1: and you're fully self supported. So that starts to also
15:18
Speaker 1: qualify for the definition of overlanding. So we'll post these,
15:21
Speaker 1: of course in the show notes, but those are great
15:23
Speaker 1: ways to say, am I overlanding on this trip? Can
15:27
Speaker 1: I answer any one of these questions as a definitive yes,
15:30
Speaker 1: then most likely you are. And again we're framing this
15:33
Speaker 1: in a helpful way. We're not trying to say that
15:35
Speaker 1: we know it all, because I do not know it all.
15:38
Speaker 1: I know only a fraction of what I hope to know.
15:40
Speaker 1: But these are some ideas that help frame the concept
15:44
Speaker 1: of am I actually overlanding?
15:46
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know? In a lot of ways, it's almost
15:48
Speaker 2: similar to the difference between a vacation and traveling. Yeah,
15:54
Speaker 2: travel to me is more in depth, it's more meaningful.
15:58
Speaker 2: It's more of a quest, more of a search. Vacation
16:01
Speaker 2: to me is Marguerite is on the beach, Marguerite, and
16:06
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong. Also overlanding. Now, that's the problem is
16:09
Speaker 2: that it's hard to really tie this definition down because
16:13
Speaker 2: it is it is designed to be inclusive, and travelers
16:17
Speaker 2: are very accepting people, so nobody, nobody wants to really
16:20
Speaker 2: go to somebody's face and say you're not an overlander?
16:24
Speaker 2: Yeah you know, and then the ensuing brawl begins.
16:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I and I guess really important. We
16:30
Speaker 1: don't want anybody to take that away from this conversation.
16:33
Speaker 1: It's literally just a conversation that helps provide some framework.
16:37
Speaker 1: I remember when I first started traveling by vehicle, I
16:41
Speaker 1: would call things that I was doing expeditions, And in
16:44
Speaker 1: hindsight I realized I was completely incorrect. I came from
16:48
Speaker 1: a place of ignorance. I came from a place of
16:50
Speaker 1: of not having done really long, really remote travel to
16:54
Speaker 1: know the difference. So that is one of the definitions
16:57
Speaker 1: that I that we will cover today, which is vehicle
17:00
Speaker 1: dependent expedition. Now take all of the pieces of overlanding
17:04
Speaker 1: and then add a purpose to it. Or when Tom
17:08
Speaker 1: Shephard was the first across the Sahara, those are expeditions,
17:12
Speaker 1: These are firsts, These are major undertakings. This is travel
17:16
Speaker 1: with a purpose or a scientific endeavor. So it's okay
17:20
Speaker 1: to not call your trip and expedition. I learned that
17:23
Speaker 1: the hard way myself. I made that mistake and called
17:26
Speaker 1: things that I did expeditions when they weren't. And now
17:29
Speaker 1: I don't do that. In fact, I would say that
17:31
Speaker 1: I've probably only done two real expeditions in my whole life.
17:34
Speaker 2: Yeah for me calling yourself an expedient leader or calling
17:41
Speaker 2: the trip that you're doing and expedition, I mean, like
17:43
Speaker 2: that's pretty serious, Like that's supposed to carry some weight
17:45
Speaker 2: with it, you know. And when I was at the
17:48
Speaker 2: explore at the event that I you know, try and
17:51
Speaker 2: go to every year. At the Oral Geographical Society in London,
17:53
Speaker 2: I was talking with Shane Windsor. We kind of came
17:55
Speaker 2: to this idea that if it's not something that can
17:58
Speaker 2: end up in their archives, if there's no scientific report,
18:01
Speaker 2: if there's no scientific paper being published from it, if
18:04
Speaker 2: there's no academic reason for the trip, it is not
18:07
Speaker 2: a It's not an expedition. If you you know, exploration,
18:10
Speaker 2: being the first person across Antarctica or whatever it may
18:13
Speaker 2: have been, and that surely that ended up in the
18:17
Speaker 2: in the archives of the Royal Geographical Society or some
18:19
Speaker 2: kind of university or or or higher learning establishment. Use
18:23
Speaker 2: that as an example. That's what that's my personal rule.
18:27
Speaker 2: If you're not proving something for the first time, or
18:29
Speaker 2: you're not doing something for the first time, or you're
18:31
Speaker 2: not doing scientific or educational research, it's probably not an expedition.
18:36
Speaker 2: And that's just okay.
18:37
Speaker 1: And and I recognize the allure of it because I
18:41
Speaker 1: made the same mistake myself, and I recognized the allure.
18:45
Speaker 1: And at the time, I will say that when I
18:47
Speaker 1: when I did my first trip through Copper Cane and
18:50
Speaker 1: when there was no GPS tracks and it sure felt
18:53
Speaker 1: like an expedition to me. It felt terrifying and unfamiliar,
18:57
Speaker 1: and it felt like I was conquering the world when
19:00
Speaker 1: in a way, I was really just conquering my own fears.
19:03
Speaker 1: And that doesn't make it an expedition, but it sure
19:06
Speaker 1: felt like it to me at the time.
19:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the again, the goal here isn't
19:11
Speaker 2: to be arrogant and say what you're doing is it's
19:14
Speaker 2: not what it what you're saying it is or or whatnot,
19:17
Speaker 2: that's not what it is. I think it's about properly
19:20
Speaker 2: classifying things so those terms have meaning. Now I'll kind
19:23
Speaker 2: of I'll kind of get into the overland industry right now. One,
19:26
Speaker 2: we now have an overland industry, Like that's really cool.
19:30
Speaker 2: It used to be a few guys and now it's
19:32
Speaker 2: a Now it's a thing. You have car companies that
19:34
Speaker 2: are actively recognizing it. But I you know, when I
19:38
Speaker 2: see overland companies talk about overlanding at the King of
19:41
Speaker 2: King of the Hammers, I'm like, what, like like like,
19:45
Speaker 2: really these have cell coverage. You have cell coverage. There's
19:48
Speaker 2: there's two thousand fifth wheel RVs within a mile of you,
19:53
Speaker 2: and this is motorsport. Yeah, I mean King of the
19:56
Speaker 2: Hammers is amazing. I think it's super cool. Yeah, rock
19:58
Speaker 2: crawling is is like the things that these guys are
20:03
Speaker 2: able to make their vehicles do, you know, through engineering,
20:06
Speaker 2: through design, and the largest part through the skill of
20:09
Speaker 2: the driver. Like, that's cool, We're not We're not saying
20:11
Speaker 2: that that's not. I think it's very cool, amazing, but
20:15
Speaker 2: it's not overlanding. Yeah, newsflash. The suspension kit that three
20:19
Speaker 2: weeks ago had had the name rock Crawler in it,
20:22
Speaker 2: but now has overland Kit in it. Like, I think
20:26
Speaker 2: that consumers need to kind of demand better from some
20:30
Speaker 2: of these companies. You know, overlanding is long distance. Overlanding
20:34
Speaker 2: is about being self sufficient. It's it's not about putting
20:37
Speaker 2: chocks on your vehicle that have to be rebuilt in
20:39
Speaker 2: you know, five to ten thousand miles or i'm joints
20:42
Speaker 2: that have very short service intervals. You know, again, these
20:47
Speaker 2: people don't have the experience to know what overlanding is.
20:50
Speaker 2: It kind of goes back to that Dunning Kruger effect
20:52
Speaker 2: that you're talking about. Yeah, I think it's the consumer.
20:55
Speaker 1: The consumer can be part of the solution, and that
20:58
Speaker 1: is by when you call up to order that suspension,
21:01
Speaker 1: just say hey, I've got a couple questions for you guys,
21:04
Speaker 1: your engineers. Have they done any long distance trips? Have
21:07
Speaker 1: they traveled in the vehicles loaded to gross vehicle weight?
21:13
Speaker 1: Have the vehicles been tested at gross vehicle weight not unloaded.
21:16
Speaker 1: Have the people that are designing it have they traveled
21:19
Speaker 1: themselves to know what some of the limitations or considerations
21:23
Speaker 1: are around it? And if there are people in the
21:27
Speaker 1: industry that have that experience, and it's really easy to find,
21:30
Speaker 1: and just spending a little bit of time looking at
21:34
Speaker 1: the cvs of the people who own the companies will
21:37
Speaker 1: really give you an idea of who has the experience
21:40
Speaker 1: and who doesn't. And I think that that's important in
21:43
Speaker 1: the same way as it's important to think about the
21:45
Speaker 1: information that you read. Who's writing it, what is their experience.
21:50
Speaker 1: If the buyline is Dan Grek, then you can take
21:52
Speaker 1: it to the bank. If the byline is somebody who
21:55
Speaker 1: was driving Tuner cars three weeks ago, you may want
21:58
Speaker 1: to question what they're saying because if you.
22:01
Speaker 2: Can scroll back far enough on their Instagram to to
22:04
Speaker 2: figure out when this person was a WRX enthusiast and
22:07
Speaker 2: then a three serious enthusiast and then a nevo enthusiast
22:10
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be. Maybe that's not first hand information.
22:14
Speaker 2: That's not you know, anybody can really go read some
22:17
Speaker 2: stuff on the internet and then just just repeat it, right, Like,
22:21
Speaker 2: how many of these people are actually presenting first hand
22:23
Speaker 2: information that they've really learned. I think that that's an
22:27
Speaker 2: important thing as well.
22:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, and starting with organizations like the Overland Expo that
22:33
Speaker 1: vet all of their trainers and the people that produce
22:36
Speaker 1: content for them, very experienced folks. We've talked a little
22:40
Speaker 1: bit about Brian Door and Dan Greck and Graham Bell
22:44
Speaker 1: and Chris Scott and Tom Shephard. Lowest Price is another
22:48
Speaker 1: great example people who have earned their stripes by actually
22:53
Speaker 1: doing it. That's where we want to that'she we want
22:54
Speaker 1: to get our information from. And that's also what we
22:57
Speaker 1: want to challenge manufacturers in the industry to do, is
23:01
Speaker 1: to produce product as a result of experience. There's a
23:06
Speaker 1: couple other words, some terms that I think add to it, Matt,
23:10
Speaker 1: when you kind of run us down that we think.
23:12
Speaker 2: First I'll start with four wheel drive touring that you know,
23:15
Speaker 2: I used to run a magazine in Australia I spend
23:17
Speaker 2: a lot of time there. Overlanding in Australia means you're
23:21
Speaker 2: out of Australia. It means you're an overlander there. Yeah,
23:25
Speaker 2: you're sending your vehicle somewhere. You don't hear people say
23:29
Speaker 2: I'm going to overland. I'm going to do an overlanding
23:32
Speaker 2: trip across the Canning Stock Greet. The term that they
23:35
Speaker 2: use there is for wheel drive touring, and I think
23:37
Speaker 2: it is so appropriate and so incise and and very honest. Yeah,
23:41
Speaker 2: very honest. I wish, I wish, wish, wish more people
23:43
Speaker 2: would use it. But yeah, so off roading. What is
23:45
Speaker 2: off roading? Simply it's recreational sport using a four wheel drive.
23:49
Speaker 2: This is the local four wheel drive trail that you're doing.
23:52
Speaker 2: This is your local club. They're going off roading. That's great,
23:56
Speaker 2: it's fun. It's super fun. Let's go off roading this weekend. Yeah,
23:59
Speaker 2: I love it. Camping. You know, that can be a
24:01
Speaker 2: mini van on a picnic table at Yellowstone as much
24:05
Speaker 2: as that can be what I'm going to go do
24:07
Speaker 2: this weekend out of my overland vehicle. I'm going car camping.
24:10
Speaker 2: Why because I'm going an hour away.
24:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're in a campground, I think, I
24:13
Speaker 1: think Jonathan is the one who said this, but if
24:15
Speaker 1: you have if it has a toilet, if the campground
24:18
Speaker 1: has a toilet, you're probably not overlanding. And now that
24:21
Speaker 1: is not always true, because I have been in some
24:23
Speaker 1: really remote campsites with toilets.
24:25
Speaker 2: But the case manage a factor of managing that, that's
24:28
Speaker 2: managing the waste. Yeah.
24:29
Speaker 1: But and again another good example of that is in Africa.
24:32
Speaker 1: There are because there are animals that eat you there.
24:35
Speaker 1: When you go to a campground, even in the middle
24:37
Speaker 1: of the Kalahati, you're you're actually like in a fenced
24:40
Speaker 1: area and there's there's a little pit toilet. So yeah,
24:43
Speaker 1: you're absolutely overlanding. But the reason why they have a
24:45
Speaker 1: campground is so you don't get eaten, which I think
24:48
Speaker 1: qualifies as overlanding in and of itself.
24:49
Speaker 2: If you can get eaten. I like the electric fences. Yeah. Yeah,
24:55
Speaker 2: So backcountry adventure, you know, one day or multi day
24:59
Speaker 2: off highway trip on an venture bike, dirt bike, fouriel
25:03
Speaker 2: drive vehicle. I mean a backcountry adventure can be hiking too,
25:06
Speaker 2: I guess. Yeah, and maybe that's kind of what you're
25:08
Speaker 2: talking about. With the four x four touring. Maybe that's
25:10
Speaker 2: a better word for that. Maybe we'll update our definition
25:15
Speaker 2: page to reflect that. I actually like that a lot, Matt.
25:18
Speaker 2: Now we get into the expedition word. A vehicle dependent
25:21
Speaker 2: expedition is an organized, vehicle dependent journey with a defined purpose,
25:25
Speaker 2: often geographic or scientific in nature. That's the one I'm
25:30
Speaker 2: a big stickler on. Is the is the expedition word.
25:34
Speaker 2: Expedition vehicle a four wheel drive vehicle or adventure motorcycle
25:39
Speaker 2: prepared for self reliant travel over long distances, through unpredictable weather,
25:44
Speaker 2: and over variable terrain. Yeah, so that's a cool thing.
25:48
Speaker 1: You can build an expedition vehicle and not go on
25:50
Speaker 1: an expedition, and that's kind of fun. So you can
25:53
Speaker 1: incorporate you can incorporate that passion or that desire for
25:57
Speaker 1: expedition travel by building a vehicle that's suitable for it,
26:01
Speaker 1: and maybe in the future you get to actually go
26:03
Speaker 1: do that and you get to maybe work with your
26:05
Speaker 1: local college. I was thinking about the trip that we
26:08
Speaker 1: did across Greenland. We had multiple points of scientific research
26:12
Speaker 1: that occurred during that trip because we were crossing an
26:15
Speaker 1: area of the world that scientists just simply didn't have
26:19
Speaker 1: access to so we were able to measure snow depths,
26:22
Speaker 1: and we were able to measure reflection off of the surface,
26:25
Speaker 1: which shows how much contaminants are in the surface. We
26:28
Speaker 1: took samples of the snow to determine how clean it was,
26:32
Speaker 1: et cetera. We did all of these these surveys and
26:36
Speaker 1: all of these tests along the way because we wanted
26:38
Speaker 1: to provide some support to scientists that would not normally
26:42
Speaker 1: be able to engage in that kind of effort.
26:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I think there's also you know,
26:48
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, citizens science open source projects
26:52
Speaker 2: where you can actually get involved and integrate science into
26:56
Speaker 2: your trips. There's a lot of need for microplastis research
27:00
Speaker 2: for example, tree core sampling, you know, even citing, citing
27:05
Speaker 2: and recording where where birds are. I mean, small things
27:09
Speaker 2: that you can be doing with you know a little
27:12
Speaker 2: bit of research to kind of be giving back.
27:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does start to give back, And I
27:16
Speaker 1: like that a lot, Matt. In fact, I think Laura
27:19
Speaker 1: she's done some of that, right.
27:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, a lot of when we did some
27:23
Speaker 2: fairly remote stuff in Australia, she did a lot of
27:26
Speaker 2: I'm going to call it bird stuff. That's what I
27:28
Speaker 2: call it. So I don't know that. I don't know
27:30
Speaker 2: how to say it more. She likes birds, she's a
27:33
Speaker 2: she's a they call it a bird peeper. Yeah. Maybe,
27:36
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, No, we've seen
27:39
Speaker 2: some really really remote stuff with the birds and it's cool.
27:43
Speaker 2: I don't know. It just it just adds something I
27:44
Speaker 2: think it does. It starts to I think, let me
27:49
Speaker 2: ask you this. I mean it overlanding doesn't probably give
27:52
Speaker 2: you the same butterflies in the stomach that it used to.
27:54
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of places that you've been,
27:56
Speaker 2: there's a lot of places that you've seen. You've seen
27:58
Speaker 2: more than I have.
27:59
Speaker 1: But you know, for me, because I'm going to kind
28:02
Speaker 1: of summarize in my way, and then Matt will add
28:04
Speaker 1: his concluding thoughts. But if you are on a vehicle
28:09
Speaker 1: supported or a vehicle dependent adventure trip, then you are
28:13
Speaker 1: most likely overlanding. Maybe ask some of those questions as
28:17
Speaker 1: a way to add some depth to that experience. If
28:21
Speaker 1: you use overlanding and it doesn't meet any of those
28:24
Speaker 1: definitions or any of those questions, I do not want
28:27
Speaker 1: anybody to think that I'm taking away that joy or
28:29
Speaker 1: that experience from you, or even that definition from you.
28:32
Speaker 1: You can apply it as you need to. I just
28:35
Speaker 1: feel like it is important as an industry that we
28:38
Speaker 1: say this is what the definition is, so that it
28:40
Speaker 1: has meaning, because otherwise, as this grows as rapidly as
28:45
Speaker 1: it's growing, it will be adopted in ways that are
28:48
Speaker 1: not consistent with its intention. And that's the thing that
28:51
Speaker 1: we don't want. That's the reason why we're recording this
28:53
Speaker 1: podcast today is because we want for it to have meaning.
28:57
Speaker 1: We want overlanding to have some definition behind it. So
29:02
Speaker 1: that's my thoughts.
29:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the term overlanding to somebody in the
29:06
Speaker 2: industry only has value because it's cool. The more you
29:10
Speaker 2: exploit a term, especially in a way that it could
29:14
Speaker 2: be misleading, I think that the power and the value
29:19
Speaker 2: of that term goes down. So I think that by
29:22
Speaker 2: overusing this term, by integrating it into everything. I mean,
29:26
Speaker 2: if last week your company was like an off road
29:29
Speaker 2: racing suspension specialist, and all of a sudden, the same
29:33
Speaker 2: product is now an overland product, ask yourself if that's ethical,
29:37
Speaker 2: Ask yourself if if that's right, have you actually developed
29:40
Speaker 2: something specific for this market? But I do think it
29:44
Speaker 2: is important to recognize what overlanding is to frequently discuss
29:48
Speaker 2: that like we're doing. Yeah, I mean, I guess if
29:52
Speaker 2: you guys have any countering opinions or anything you like
29:54
Speaker 2: to say. I've had a lot of people lately that
29:57
Speaker 2: I've been reaching out to me on Instagram explore on Instagram,
30:01
Speaker 2: and you're now Scott dot a dot Brady. That's me.
30:05
Speaker 1: Let's have a conversation about it. I think that that's important. Well,
30:08
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. We really appreciate everyone's support
30:11
Speaker 1: and questions and continued comments. And if you like the podcast,
30:16
Speaker 1: please subscribe and send us any comments or questions through
30:20
Speaker 1: Instagram and we will talk to you next time.
30:22
Speaker 2: See you guys,