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52: The Catholic annulment: when love isn't happily ever after · Beyond The Beacon

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson, New Jersey.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Join us for weekly conversations about our Catholic faith, and together let's strive to live a life of faith, hope, and love.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Jay Agnish, and with me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bishop Kevin, how are you today?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing well, Jay.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Doing pretty good, thanks.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: So what's new?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're we're uh we're losing you for for next week.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Where where are you headed?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: To Lourdes in France, um the Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, and great timing that we were invited to a screening last night at the Sheen Center, the Archbishop Fulton J.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Sheen Center and um for culture and media, I think, um, and uh in Manhattan, and they were showing you have a picture there of the Yeah, it was the it was a music it was a musical about it's called Bernadette des Lourdes, and it was the story of uh Saint Bernadette coming to Broadway.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: The Lourdes situation, yeah, in the lo in the l story of Lourdes, and uh yeah, it was in French, it was a lot of fun.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: It was actually like a a documentary of the musical.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't the actual music.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah, uh right, right.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that was fun.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tells the story beautifully, and I'd done a little research myself.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I um mentioned to someone at the gathering after the screening, um the priest in the um in the this production and reminded me of the did you see um um oh now the movie just went out of my head.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Song of Burned Dead.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Song of Burn Dead.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I oh I think I saw when I was in high school um and uh when VHS's were just coming out.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh uh I was impressed by the movie, but maybe the image that stuck stuck with me was the priest at first not being not believing or you know, giving Bernadette a hard time.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh how how could you not doubt?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, right.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in those days they were pretty harsh about it, right?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're crazy, you're things but Bernadette was a perfect witness to what she saw.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: The movie showed that beautifully.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they focused on a quote where she said, I'm not here to convince I wasn't asked to convince you, I was just asked to tell you, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: What I saw.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the priest um, you know, is slowly but surely saying, There's something about this young girl.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then when he asked her to tell her to tell us his her name.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at first she doesn't um the name of the apparition.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then she comes back and Bernadette says to the priest, she sold me to say, I am the Immaculate Conception.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like the priest is like, whoa.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she couldn't, she could hardly pronounce the words because and apparently she was repeating it all the way from the grotto back to the priest, right?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just remarkable how God selects people like that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's per a perfect witness to what is seen and heard.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't realized how poor the family her family was.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um with her father losing his job, and I think at alcohol troubles, the beautiful depiction of the father in the movie, really.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the relationship between the father and the daughter, yeah, and Bernard was was really well done, I thought.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And just remarkable what has happened since that moment and what's there now.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I was there about 12 years ago.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you were at Lord's.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and actually I I was I took the cr the risk of going into the baths.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: You did.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you did, okay?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and long story short, as soon as you rise out of the baths, there there are two there are individuals there who want to dry you off and for some remarkable, miraculous reason, you're already d fairly dry.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing how many people have said that.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard a number of people, yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're fully immersed or you have to you know very lightly clad.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so they escort you into like a pool in the water, and they support you because you you're in the water up to your neck.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're lying horizontal, then you're lifted out, and then there there are towels given to you.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: But before actually the towels get to you, you're more or less dry, which is m miraculous.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um is this person with us?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: We should introduce Father Mark Mancini is our guest today.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, thanks for coming.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Father Mark is the um he's the tribunal's jud judicial vicar for almost three years.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he's also the pastor of St.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: James of in Tottawa for for the past six years.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: He's a priest of 32 years.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: We see him around quite often here at the diocesan center.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's because he's uh very uh you know, obviously central to the to the work of the tribunal, and we're gonna get into that um today and we'll talk about annulments and divorces.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And God bless many of the priests in our diocese who are pastors and have another job.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think they have two or three full-time jobs sometimes.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but um as pastor of St.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: James, uh I'm remembering that uh the principal of your school, Miss Papas, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh she was on a previous episode.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh um thank God for our parishes that have Catholic schools and uh and you you have one there at St.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: James.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're flourishing, we're doing well.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Great, yes.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh boy, uh our principals is are hardworking, but it's great when there's a good relationship, good working relationship within the pastors and the city.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a privilege being a pastor of the school.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I found that to be true.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh there's so much affirmation from the kids.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like today was good they gave me a gift for Good Shepherd's Sunday.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, nice.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So how how how many pr priests get that opportunity to to be with pre- and you have a recently ordained Father Joey?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it'll be coming up on two years?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Two years.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um or three.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll be three.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it three?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say it's gonna be three.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: The tallest Filipino priest our lives.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And helping out at DePaul High School these days as well, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um uh so um the commute from Totawood to Clifton, I hope, is not too bad, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're making it a lot of things.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's all of ten minutes.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Great, great.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um well and uh sometimes we plan, sometimes the Holy Spirit plans, sometimes a combination.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and providentially, Father Mark Mancini is here on the feast of Saint Mark the Evangelist, uh, April 25th.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're recording today.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, once again, uh we uh wish Bishop Saratelli a happy birthday.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: For last last week was Bishop Saratelli's birthday, a week ago today, turned 80, so uh happy birthday again, Bishop Saratelli.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so as we pray, I thought we could uh ask the intercession of St.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Mark the Evangelist, um, as we'll begin with a prayer.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the good news of the gospel is shared in so many different ways.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've often said um for people who like things, there's some who like everything short and sweet, especially the homily, right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Mark was their guy, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the four gospels, he's the he's the shortest.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um very likely the first of the four gospels, um, similar to St.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Luke, he wasn't one of the twelve, but um a close relationship with um many of the with both St.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Peter and St.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Paul and uh and the uh very important in the early church and gave us the beautiful um uh second gospel in the order of that it's in the Bible.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um He cuts to the chase.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, that's right.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but probably the first one written.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we'll pray through his intercession and pray for all those who share the good news of the gospel and hear the good news of the gospel as we place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: In these beautiful Easter days, this season of Easter, we give thanks for our newly baptized and confirmed and those who have received communion, the adults at the Easter Vigil, and in these days we also think of so many young people who are receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit in confirmation.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And now in these days, so many of our young people will be receiving Jesus in their first Holy Communion.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: We pray for them and for the church in our diocese.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: We pray for um those who'll be traveling to Lourdes in the coming week and all those who seek healing, whether it be physical, healing, emotional, or spiritual.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um we Father Mark and I received a request for prayer from a friend of ours named Joe.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: We'll pray for him, his healing.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And remembering those who have asked for our prayers, those we promised to pray for, we now pray through the intercession of Saint Mark as we pray.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, who raised up Saint Mark, your evangelist, and endowed him with the grace to preach the gospel.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Grant, we pray that we may so profit from his teaching as to follow faithfully in the footsteps of Christ, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Our Lady of Lords, praise, pray for us.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Saint Joseph, pray for us, pray for us, Saint John the Baptist and Saint Mark, pray for us, all holy men and women, praise.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Pray for us in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Bridget.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being with us, uh, Father Mark.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you for inviting me.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and such an important topic, uh, one of those, I think, topics that people have heard the word annulment.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they know that there's this thing in the church, you can get an annulment from your marriage, but what is it?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: How much does it cost?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh um, how long is it?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've shared with you that in my experience as a pastor in Brooklyn, um I started just filling out the application, the paperwork, and helping parishioners to gather some of those documents which um are needed.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh um and what a wonderful experience it was for me as a parish priest.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we thank our parish priests who help those looking for the process.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh as one of our our canon law teachers in the seminary said, if you have a question, call the chancery, call the chancery, and they do call it.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: You'll get a lot of calls, and we and we what we welcome those calls, right?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you have a great staff that work with you.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but maybe um we'll start speaking about an all-minute in a moment, but maybe just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, how you heard the call to priesthood, and when you were ordained, a little of your background.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, thank you.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I was born and raised in Patterson, New Jersey.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Went to public schools there.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Then I actually went at what to St.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Mary's Church in Patterson.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was working as a refrigeration air conditioning mechanic for a few years.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: H V A C.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Then I just felt not totally fulfilled.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I got more involved with the Knights of Columbus at St.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mary's Church in Patterson, and one day this gentleman saw me in church and said, Mark, I see you there a lot.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever thought about becoming a priest?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, No, absolutely not.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: How old were you?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was tw 20 years old.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that question just lingered, just stayed with me.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And since I worked in Tottawa, New Jersey, living in Patterson, I used to stop at a church called St.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: James of the March Church and discern my priesthood.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: That call.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that question just stayed and stayed, and I figured I have to investigate this further.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to Satan Hall University, the college seminary of St.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Andrews, and midway through I said, this is what I wanted to do.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Went to St.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Mary's Seminary in Baltimore, Maryland, ordained in 92.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um I've been a priest now over almost 32 years.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And as we say, the Lord works in mysterious ways, and um a priest makes that promise of obedience.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: A document priest usually can expect to serve in the parish, in a parish in the diocese, but there were times when uh the bishop asks a priest to take on what we might call specialized ministry.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And was it a year into your priesthood when Bishop Rodimer asked you for the Approximately one year.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was ordained in November of 92.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Back then, that's when the ordinations were happening.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And within a short period of time, Bishop Rodimer said, Mark, would you like to come and spend one day a week at the in the tribunal just to help as an advocate?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I asked my pastor, my pastor said, sure, one day a week isn't too bad.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I spent about three or four years doing that until Bishop Rodimer asked me, uh, we'd like to send you to Catholic University to get an advanced degree in canon law.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: So when I told my pastor that, he was not very happy that he was losing a parochial vicar.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Nevertheless, he supports what Bishop O'Dimer wanted.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went to Catholic University for two years and finished in '99.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the priest who is in charge of, let's say, what we call the tribunal for the diocese, which handles a lot of these matters, um, we call he's usually called the judicial vicar, right?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Which you now serve.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Who was the judicial vicar when you started working in the chancellor's.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Father James Hurdle.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Father James Hurdle.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and eventually um Monsignor Kurtica, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Followed him.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Then I then for intra for intra uh for a short period of time after Monsignor Kurtica passed away, Monsignor Ingenoli was uh walking.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: God bless him.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, God bless him is right.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um So uh you studied canon law you you went away to study can of law, right, at Catholic University.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Catholic University in Washington, D.C., which was a really a wonderful experience.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was just a blessing to live in Washington for two years.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh you had been in St.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Teresa, uh you eventually went back there as pastor, right?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: I went back as a pastor, ironically.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: I spent eight years there, then now I'm at St.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: James.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Back where it all started.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Where it all started.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you've I guess worked in the tribunal since finishing your degree in different ways.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then when um after Monsina Kurtica passed, as we said, I asked you to um take on that responsibility as judicial vicar.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but um we want and there's a lot we could talk about in terms of that work, but uh we're gonna focus on annulman's today because um we've received some questions.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but Jay, maybe you want to get us started by asking some Mark, Father Mark, some questions about where how where we could should we start?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well you're doing great.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think any of you, but uh um Thanks.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: I uh well, first of all, so the tribunal, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: What how you d defined a tribunal, and so you don't exclusively work with annulments.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's other matters that the tribunal Trevor Burrus Mostly right now is with marriage cases.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Occasionally priests call with some complications regarding how do I do this for this particular wedding, how do I do this for the baptism, like sacramental matters.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll call me and I give them some guidance.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I guess some ways in terms of the way a court might interpret the law, right?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: The tribunal interprets canon law, right?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: So are you a church lawyer?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is that loosely how you define it?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Without any of the negative connotations.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, an ecclesiastical ecclesiastical attorney.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's the right thing.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Pretty cool.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh good.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So tell us, what is an annulment?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, an annulment is a decision made by the tribunal that the marriage that appeared to be valid is declared invalid.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: But before an annulment can happen, the couple would have to go through a civil divorce.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: You can't have an annulment of a marriage if the couple ha has not achieved uh obtaining a civil divorce.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a prerequisite for an annulment.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: So divorce, annulment, two very different things, but they are tied together in that respect.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so if if I'm a Catholic and I'm divorced, and I want to one day get remarried in the Catholic Church, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I should get an annulment?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is that I would recommend it if you want to get married in the Catholic Church.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It takes about 18 months or so.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you petition for it, uh huh, then you carry it through.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: The your former spouse may uh participate, but it's not absolutely necessary.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: You need witnesses to verify what you share.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's there's uh uh officials in the tribunal who by an advocate be an advocate, he who'll argue or she will argue for the annulment.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's defender of the bond arguing for the validity of the marriage.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: So let So that's why it takes about a year and a half.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of moving parts.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I was annulled and you assisted me in my annulment many years ago back in 2017.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I have to say you were so compassionate and loving and helpful.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I approach it as a healing ministry, as I said prior.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it is.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you are truly involved and connected to what's happening, it could become a a a healing experience for you.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: I did find that, yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: That it was and I think uh again for those who may not have uh uh heard about an elements in any depth, um I think sometimes there are perceptions out there um for good and sometimes for not so good.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think most Catholics and even non-Catholics would say or hear that, well, divorce is not allowed in the Catholic Church, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the way we come to that uh phrase, I guess, would be um we go back to Jesus in in the in the in the gospels saying um what God has joined, men must not divide, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: He goes back to even Genesis um that the two become one flesh.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um the church has always seen marriage as a sacrament, and in that sacrament, the two become one flesh, and what God has joined, men cannot divide.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um That's an excellent point.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's very true.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I I remember being with couples um and saying um you know nobody gets married, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: You or just about no one gets married, especially in church, even if they're young, even if they might have doubts, um they're they're there with the best intentions, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And um and uh they they make the vows and the the priest or deacon is there, and so from what everybody can see, the sacrament happened and the two would join together as one.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look a little more closely at the circumstances of that um uh uh the the priest asks a few questions, which they kind of just seem like they're part of the form you know, formula have you come here freely and without reservation?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I think with good intentions from their heart, hopefully every person is saying yes to that question, but sometimes whether they're aware of it or not, they're not really free at that moment, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because the Exactly.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the the And they're under some kind of pressure.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um they maybe even they said, I don't know if I could do that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And with good intentions, the parents were saying, You're getting married, but they don't understand that they don't really think it through.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: This is a permanent bond, and they realize that uh well, I I can't do this anymore.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so while they say the words of the vows which are very important, and the priest he received or deacon receives those vows, and normally that sacrament would happen, if there's something in one or the other or both that really kind of prevents as maybe on the spiritual level the sacrament from happening, where the two are joined together as one, there was something that got in the way of that, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the annulment says there was something there, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's something there that that created an inviolate bond.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: It could be the lack of maturity, the lack of judgment, could be substance abuse, emotional or psychological.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um if there was l infidelity during the courtship and engagement, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: There could be a pattern there, and she or he hoped for the best, but found once married, that infidelity continued.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um the and Jay, again, you can share maybe some of your own experience um and each you know marriage, and it just is each person is different.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, you know, thinking back to some of the couples that I dealt with uh uh and and some of the things uh that we hear, well, then um, you know can anybody get an annulment?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh what is I think one of the reasons why it takes so long is because the church does believe what we say we believe that marriage is uh for for for life, the two become one flesh.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So so to really be able to know that there was something there, it witnesses help, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes a psychological evaluation is necessary.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, a lot of care goes into discerning one way or another.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is it invalid or valid?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a serious matter.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: We take a look at the declaring a sacrament, what appears to be a sacrament, valid or invalid.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a serious matter.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it can seem like we're almost making it difficult for the persons going through it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not the intention, it's because of what we believe.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and as you say, um while it there are difficult moments, anybody I think who has been through a divorce to look back at that, they may not want to.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's understandable.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, but as they go through, um, sometimes that's when the healing happens, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Many, many instances of that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, I can attest to that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was helpful to me.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Did you know um how did you first hear about an all min after you had been through your own uh divorce or separation?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess um Catholic friends or my mom, you know, I'd heard that it's something you could do if you want to get remarried one day in in the Catholic Church.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And um I Go ahead.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't about to get remarried, but um I'm glad I started the process when I when I did.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And was the first step speaking to a priest in the parish, or was it calling the tribunal directly?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: So um I worked with my local parish uh at the time, and I met with the pastor who uh took down my information and and then uh yeah, asked some basic questions.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I guess there's a form and a procedure, and moved that along to the diocese, to the tribunal office, and then Mary Beth gave me a call one day and then uh Mary Beth, one of many uh work in the administrative assistant.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not a huge number, but the few who worked there were hardworking.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mm-hmm and compassionate, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then I met with Father Mark did my uh I guess my intake uh evaluation or or uh took my testimony and uh Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And a very uh very common misunderstanding of this tedious process is the children, if there are any children, they're they're still legitimate.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it doesn't impact.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the they have children.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's a fact.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't weigh on whether or not this marriage is valid or invalid.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't illegitimate uh doesn't create illegitimate children if the person if the couple is is uh annulled.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Bishop, I want to ask you, um not to digress too far, but there there's a lot of talk about cath like divorce and with the synod on synodality.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: What what are we talking about's the conversation there?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: And how does that relate to annulment?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the ways I would respond to that is um uh I I found it um was something that uh early on in his pontificate um uh Pope Francis uh they would speak about and it's very you know he has pastoral experience, he's uh worked as a parish priest, he was a bishop of a diocese in Argentina.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when he came, became Pope, he he he felt those Catholics who had been divorced and remarried, and um and uh when that second marriage was not in the um the sacrament, they hadn't gotten an annulment yet.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh that and and still many are dealing with that situation today.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um he he called a synod I on on marriage, I believe, and the family, um uh which was a two-year synod because uh and also declared the year of mercy.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh we're gonna have we'll be talking about the upcoming Jubilee in 2025, but he called an extraordinary Jubilee year of mercy, right?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that was he asked every um diocese um to I think waive the fee for um for annulments for a year, um because the um um the the offer the opportunity to go through the annulment process um is um uh a way of experiencing God's mercy.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and Pope Francis has that great emphasis on on God's mercy as part of his uh uh papal motto.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh and uh uh practical realities, because uh we all have bills to pay, uh uh we we do uh ask a uh um uh a fee, and Father Mark, you can comment on that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um So we ask for administrative fee.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's uh it's not thousands of dollars, and that's a misunderstanding.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's six hundred dollars for the 18 months of work that happens in the tribunal.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: That can vary from diocese to diocese.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think some diocese it might be a thousand, it might be and there's And it's been six hundred dollars for as long as I've been in the tribunal, so it's over thirty years.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not impacted by inflation.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't be.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not all due up front either.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Nevertheless, if a couple or the a petitioner, the petitioner is the one who is responsible for this fee, if the petitioner can't afford it, I mean there is a that shouldn't get in the way.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exercise mercy.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: That should not be an obstacle for that, the continuation of the procedure.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh we've got some questions, or there's some questions that I think have come into us that might be.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Father Mark, um can you speak to your work as as a way to to dispense mercy or or compassion?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: T time and time again, I I've met petitioners towards the end of their process saying this was a healthy thing for me to do.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are um recollections that I I buried in myself.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But once now I had to write them out, I had to respond to these questions, I feel as though there's there's freedom now from what was percolating inside of me.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: In the um parish where I served as pastor in Brooklyn, it was a large immigrant community and um uh so many cases where um someone had been married in the country where they were born and raised, often at a young age, you know, 19, 20, 21, 18.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for different reasons maybe they rushed into that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and maybe it lasted a six months or a year, and then they had the opportunity to come here to the United States uh and they're struggling to get by.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: They meet somebody.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so many of them raised in strong Catholic families, and they knew they were married in church, um, and so they couldn't be married again, in their understanding, um, the information that they had.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and met someone and had two, three, four children, baptized those children, first communion, confirmation, and they were there for those sacraments for their children and weren't able to receive communion years without because you know they were living in this relationship.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and to say that they could um get an annulment from that first marriage and be married in the church, that's when I started filling out some papers because um to uh celebrate a wedding of a couple that has lived many years without the Eucharist and raised their children and and now have gotten an annulment and can be married sacramentally.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: What a what it gives me.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: What's inspiring too for me over the 30 years when when I hear non-Catholic individuals say this has been a healing process, this has me um helped me understand uh a different dimension of the church that I didn't know about after going through the annulment procedure.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as the Lord teaches us mercy and compassion, um sometimes we have to be merciful and compassionate with ourselves, you know.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the couple they was young, they they they made the best decisions they but they had personal or other problems.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that and you know, we I think any of us are familiar with what when it doesn't go well, what that can be like, um the pain that um uh uh but but hey, you were young, you know, you you were under pressure, you uh you you were trying your best and and and it didn't work okay.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can't be too soft what happened.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's happened, it hasn't happened very often, but it's gonna happen, it has happened a few times, it will happen again in within a month.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh standing in front of the person who's gone through an omen process and being the priest at that person's wedding.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: The joy that I see, I've been part of that history that sh he or she can stand there and enter into the sacrifice.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I should have had you at our wedding.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as we're talking, a couple of people come to mind.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's important to say uh because um we're we're all on a journey, and um um I I I there har there are times when someone has married in the church, faithful to his or her vows, um and his or her spouse after a divorce says they want to get an annulment and the other person um says he or she, I married in the church, marriage marriage is for life, I'd be ma how can this and and and there's sometimes an anger or an upsetment.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I you know, we we invite the always invite the other party to spouse to participate when one um and and when they participate it can be uh even more of a healing process at times and help the process.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: But there are times when we can go through the process with only one spouse participating, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And those are the most challenging uh uh annulment procedures when when the other parties annoyed at the petitioner and sometimes at the church for saying, hey, exactly.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's my next that was my next point.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and but it can still be be done then.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well the longer you're married, obviously, the more difficult it becomes.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: So i i it could be done with good reason, but you know, as you go into 20, 30, 40 years of marriage, then you really have to dig deep and and uh wonder.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it th about eighty to eighty-five percent of the cases go through.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Not every case goes through.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, why don't we get into some of the practical so uh average time, start to finish, you said 18 months.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: How does a petitioner start the process?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: They would contact your local church.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Tribunal or start with a passage.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: So either or, right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: But they could call the tribunal.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I believe the most direct way I think is there information available online?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: It is online.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you go to the tribunal section, I play I uh have put the all the uh petitions online.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and I would one thing I would say uh the uh it's good that the information is available online, and as those who Google can get a lot of information, but just before you make a decision for yourself or um thinking that whether you can be might be able to receive a nominator, talk to somebody, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to a parish priest um because um uh sometimes what appears on paper or uh you know on the internet uh needs to can be overwhelming, right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and and sometimes maybe there's something in in the case that might not be uh immediately apparent, but talking to someone and having that personal conversation can sometimes help to And if there are individuals whose whose uh English is not their first language, there's plenty of information on online as well as at the office if there's a need for a Polish interpreter, a Spanish interpreter.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: I guess the only other thing So what does happen if a the person on the other side does appeal the decision?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Occasionally at most, that happens when the respondent appeals the decision of the Patterson Diocesan Tribunal.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: So the Patterson Diocesan Tribunal is the first instance court.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: If the appeal happens, then there's a second instance court, which is the Camden Diocese.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so the whole the case is sent to the Camden Diocese as the appellate court to determine whether or not the annulment should be given.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And coming out of the synod and the year of mercy and and uh some of the conversations and and decisions of Pope Francis, it has been um streamlined a little bit, right?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a briefer process when whereby both parties, the petitioner and the respondent, the former spouses, are working together for the desired goal of the annulment.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that can streamline, as Bishop said, streamline the process whereby it can take just a matter of six months if all if everything falls into place.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: But that has to do with more of a a short-term marriage.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: If it's a long-term marriage, it's it's hard to uh use the briefer process.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: So if it's a short-term par marriage and both parties are willing to cooperate, and there's good witnesses, and there's a pretty obvious reason for the annulment, it can go it can go really quickly.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: But the longer the marriage.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the more challenges.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: Challenges.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: But not to say that the annulment didn't happen.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think sometimes I was amazed uh in Mexico, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, how many churches uh burned down or were flooded because they said I can't get my baptismal certificate, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be um uh where there's a will, there's a way.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and we'll work with you.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh the the the we can get witnesses to the baptism, whatever, if you made uh so those things might take time, but we'll we'll work with you, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't give up the because you think you can't get a certain sacramental certificate or a certain record.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Precisely.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point, Bishop.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Very good point.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you wrote in the beacon this week, the tribunal is here to help.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Great timing.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and how many uh annulments a year would would be So just for this past year, past year, there were 47 petitions submitted from the Patterson from the people in the Patterson Diocese.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there were 70 still in process, 70 or 70, between 70 and 75 still in process, and I think 43 were completed in 2023.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that those numbers are lower than when I first began.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: But so I think there's less uh church weddings happening.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, I think.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that may be the reason.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe there are people are are hesitant to petition, but they shouldn't be.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're there to help, we're there to uh encourage them to do what the right thing is.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's a question here um asking about the difference between a f the formal formal annulment procedure and what we call um a defective canonical form case.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one maybe uh um one way to say that is sometimes a Catholic gets married civilly, right, but not in church.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um the church doesn't recognize that marriage.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So uh if they're if they got divorced from that marriage, they don't need to go through the annulment process, right?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically, if you do the wrong thing, uh you don't have to go through the right, right?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: The long potential the long process.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: But um it's what we believe about the sacrament of marriage, right?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: That it's supposed to be, yeah.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um Jay had other questions?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think so.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: Do we are we missing anything, Father Mark?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: Is it No?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think we explain well the uh the process for an annulment.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that we're here to help.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's not an easy process, but if you go through it, you you experience healing if you really invested in the And we have some other you mentioned Monsignor Anginoli, we have some other priests who help in the tribunal as well as there are Father Philip Michael Kangora.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the the the staff is always there to assist.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Father Nico Quintos is one of the newer ones.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: He's doing very well.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and um so you're pastor with the school uh and in the tribunal.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um it seems like you're in the tribunal every day.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is that uh I'm there about three days a week for uh several hours each day.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: I bring some work home, but with a school and a parish and this, it takes a lot of time.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it it's a blessing, though.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we have good stuff.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to be a priest and doing what I'm doing.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: God is good.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um Sean Vaca, right?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sean has been working for many years.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sean is Vaca's been there for 25 years.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: She and Mary Beth.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mary Beth has been there 18 years at least.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they work well together.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: They look very well together.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they were so helpful when I went through my process of annulment and I had a happy ending to my story.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: I was remarried not too long ago.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Congratulations.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: My lovely wife, Annette.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, thank you.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it could be a hard uh pro hard thing to go through at first, but it it could lead to to much joy.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Happiness at the end.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I like to say, especially in the Easter season, uh especially in the couple the days and weeks following when we read the apparitions when Jesus um uh appears after risen from the dead, um, those there were things he said in his ministry when uh before his suffering, death, and resurrection, but what after the resurrection, the two things that he repeats so often don't be afraid and peace be with you.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh many of us are hurting in different ways, uh but we need to hear his voice.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: And as you just said, Jay, if someone is thinking about, oh, could I do it?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's too long, don't be afraid.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it can bring you it can bring you peace.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it can bring you a new life, right?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly what Jesus is all about, bringing new life.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for the invitation.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: We've had been wanting you to come on for some time, so it was nice.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um before we wind down this episode, Bishop, is there anything you'd like to uh talk about?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to give the phone number just in case if uh um or the uh tribunal number?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Tribunal, yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's your your mobile number, Father Martin.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: The tribunal number is 973-777-8818-Extension 226.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's always somebody there from 9 a.m.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: to 4 p.m.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want my cell number, I can give that to you.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I just can't.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Father Mark.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for uh all you do in your ministry.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um I'll be praying for you, Jay.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Cecile is here with us uh and um be bringing many intentions to um the shrine at Lourdes and um asking the intercession.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Place of healing, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Lord's um and uh really enriched my priesthood when I was in Lord's.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh while I'm traveling, I'll be hopefully following the Knicks for their long playoff run because they had a great win on Tuesday night.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now they're up to intrigued tonight to none.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: If they can get a win tonight, they'll be in great shape.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: But um, your Yankees are in first place where they I feel like they I don't want to say they belong there, but I I feel like for many years that's where they offended.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: The Rangers are doing well.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh boy.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: The Devils didn't make it.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk after you, right?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Islanders did, but um they blew their second game, and so they're down 2-0.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I was talking to my brother-in-law uh earlier, and uh if the Rangers and Islanders both win, they'll play each other in the next round.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be quite the series.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: The NFL draft is today for the football fans.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: So isn't that great for Madison Square Garden?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: The Knicks are uh uh winning and the Rangers are winning.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um that is great.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a little sad that it's the first time, I think, since 1994.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they haven't been both to the finals since 1994.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And many re would remember that that was the year that OJ was in the um, now God rest him, uh uh OJ was in the White Bronco in '94.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and sadly um O.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: J.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Simpson passed uh um just uh and here we are 30 years later, and um the Knicks and Rangers are in contention again.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um but let's go Knicks.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank thanks again.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Bishop.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, and thank you all for joining us.
• 43:29
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• 43:31
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• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Email questions and podcast topic ideas to beyond at pattersondiaces.org.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: Discover our other podcasts, Coffee with Cupkey and the Paul Street Journal.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, everybody.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.