Latest / The Dr Louise Newson Podcast / 11 - Hormones and mental health: Ben West discusses how having hard conversations can save lives

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11 - Hormones and mental health: Ben West discusses how having hard conversations can save lives · The Dr Louise Newson Podcast

• 0:03
  Today on my podcast, I've had Ben W, who's a mental health
• 0:06
  campaigner and author. He's got an amazing story.
• 0:10
  Very sad. He lost his brother by suicide
• 0:12
  when he was only a teenager. And we talk a lot about mental
• 0:17
  health, of course, mental health and hormones, but in general,
• 0:20
  how we can help improve how people are feeling and open up
• 0:25
  the conversation more to hopefully reduce more deaths by
• 0:28
  suicide. So it's a great listen.
• 0:31
  So Ben, thanks ever so much for coming to my lovely studio that
• 0:34
  you've already complimented me on, which is great.
• 0:37
  It's. Lovely in here, so calming.
• 0:39
  I know. Well, you know, life's really
• 0:41
  hectic and I just wanted somewhere calm and comfortable.
• 0:44
  But I'm really excited that you're here.
• 0:47
  You've got a story which is sad for lots of reasons.
• 0:51
  We are. We'll obviously talk about it
• 0:53
  and most people thankfully haven't had your experience, but
• 0:57
  most of us have had bereavements that have affected us in
• 0:59
  different ways. You probably know bits about my
• 1:03
  work and hormones have a massive role in our brains and mental
• 1:08
  health and hormones. Mental health is something that
• 1:11
  I am so passionate about. Obviously the brain is the most
• 1:14
  important organ of our body. I don't need to tell you that.
• 1:18
  But mental health means different things to different
• 1:20
  people. Lots of people have a bad day
• 1:22
  and say they're really depressed.
• 1:24
  Most people who are really depressed actually don't talk
• 1:26
  about it, and those that do don't know where to get help.
• 1:31
  So tell me a bit about just your story first, if that's OK.
• 1:34
  Yeah, absolutely. So firstly, the fact that I am
• 1:38
  sitting in a podcast studio talking about mental health is
• 1:41
  not something I ever imagined my life turning into.
• 1:44
  When I was growing up. My plan was to join the armed
• 1:48
  forces and go into the Army Air Corps and I was 100% set on on
• 1:54
  that path. I grew up in Kent.
• 1:58
  We were a quite a rural community in Kent.
• 2:02
  I grew up with two brothers, a dog, both parents that were
• 2:05
  together in a lovely, lovely part of the world and had just
• 2:10
  the most amazing childhood. And I had my vision.
• 2:13
  I had that path that was sort of forming in front of me.
• 2:16
  And then in September 2017, my younger brother Sam was
• 2:22
  diagnosed with clinical depression.
• 2:26
  And I had I'd never heard of. How old were you?
• 2:29
  Then I was 17, and I remember this so clearly.
• 2:31
  We were having dinner in September and we finished dinner
• 2:36
  and my mom was just like, oh, Ben, can I chat to you for a
• 2:38
  second? And she said, Sam's been
• 2:40
  diagnosed with clinical depression.
• 2:42
  And I just sort of sat there and went.
• 2:45
  And all right. Can I go?
• 2:47
  Can I go now? I didn't know what that was.
• 2:49
  And I I'm, I just thought, what does that be?
• 2:53
  How can you be diagnosed with feeling sad?
• 2:55
  That doesn't make sense. So I just sort of left and
• 2:58
  never, never thought about it again really.
• 3:02
  And then in January 2018, it was a Sunday evening, I was packing
• 3:10
  my bag ready for school the next day and my mum found Sam had
• 3:16
  taken his own life. And all I heard was just the
• 3:22
  most horrific screaming and then went to see what was going on
• 3:27
  and and came across like the most catastrophic event you
• 3:32
  could possibly imagine. And my whole world very quickly
• 3:37
  unraveled in front of me at just 17 years old.
• 3:41
  And here I am now, it's been 7 years.
• 3:44
  I am not in the armed forces. I have changed what I am doing
• 3:48
  in life. I feel a very, very strong sense
• 3:51
  of purpose and I have done every day for the last seven years
• 3:54
  that I don't want any other person to ever feel the same way
• 3:59
  that Sam did and not have somewhere to go and someone to
• 4:02
  show them that there are other options.
• 4:04
  Because Sam had other options. And unfortunately, his disease
• 4:08
  stopped him from seeing that. And I'm very, very passionate
• 4:11
  now at trying to create that change in society and in
• 4:16
  individuals so that more people get those options that Sam
• 4:20
  didn't see. So this is my full time job now
• 4:23
  and I absolutely love it. And it brings me such an
• 4:25
  enormous sense of purpose. And, and it is really, really an
• 4:29
  honor to do things like this and have the conversations with with
• 4:32
  people like you that are also doing fantastic work and being
• 4:36
  part of something really positive out of something that
• 4:39
  was just so catastrophically negative.
• 4:43
  It feels, it feels good, really good.
• 4:46
  It's so important, you know, when something negative happens.
• 4:49
  I think you really have two choices.
• 4:51
  You can crumble, you can be identified by that, and it can
• 4:55
  ruin your life. Of course it's going to affect
• 4:58
  your life and change your journey like it has for you, but
• 5:00
  you can then turn it into something in the in your belly
• 5:04
  that really wants to make a difference.
• 5:07
  And. But it's hard for many reasons.
• 5:09
  And we'll talk about a few of them, but one of them is, is
• 5:12
  being young. Yeah.
• 5:13
  I think being young and having mental health illness absolutely
• 5:18
  really hard. But being young and having a
• 5:21
  bereavement is a whole new level.
• 5:24
  Yeah. Like, I don't know how much
• 5:25
  support you had, but you know, I'm sure a lot of focus on your
• 5:29
  mum and your parents, but for you and your brother, like
• 5:33
  that's so important. Yeah, it was, I mean, I guess I
• 5:38
  was very lucky in a way, in in a sense that I was still at school
• 5:41
  when Sam died. So immediately, you know, it
• 5:44
  wasn't a sense that that I could isolate myself.
• 5:47
  I had to go to school. The school had a safeguarding
• 5:50
  responsibility on me. So I was sort of forced into a
• 5:54
  quite in depth network of support and it wasn't, it wasn't
• 5:59
  an option for me to sort of be isolated in that my family were
• 6:02
  obviously great and really came together and sort of found a way
• 6:05
  of supporting each other. The school tried their best in a
• 6:09
  difficult situation and did put on quite a lot of support for
• 6:11
  me. But you're right, I mean, bad
• 6:14
  things happening to young people is, is really is really sad.
• 6:18
  I mean, at 17 years old, I didn't expect to have to deal
• 6:21
  with death. Certainly not, you know, with,
• 6:26
  with Sam, who was 15. I'd lost a dog before.
• 6:30
  That was my sort of. And that's incredibly sad, but.
• 6:33
  It's a whole new level. But a whole new level because
• 6:36
  it's so unexpected. You know, these people are
• 6:38
  people you expect to have the rest of your life with.
• 6:41
  Yeah, for sure. You know, Sam, like best man,
• 6:43
  weddings, drinks, like starting a new job got him going to
• 6:47
  university, all these things. So you're not just losing a
• 6:50
  person, you're losing all of those memories that you you'd
• 6:54
  played out in your head about the things that you're going to
• 6:56
  do in life. Suddenly that's never going to
• 6:58
  happen. And that is absolutely
• 6:59
  devastating. And at 17, your brain is
• 7:03
  rewiring. You've got a lot of stuff going
• 7:05
  on just biologically anyway. And then to throw in trauma and
• 7:10
  grief, it really is a difficult experience and probably not one
• 7:14
  that I gave myself enough time in the moment to realize.
• 7:18
  I think I was very, I'm a very practical person.
• 7:21
  And so I sort of went bad thing. What's the solution?
• 7:24
  I'm going to do this practical solve it.
• 7:27
  And, and what I've learned through therapy and, and talking
• 7:31
  to professionals is actually, you know, when it comes to grief
• 7:34
  and trauma, it's the lack of, it's the, it's stepping back
• 7:37
  from trying to find a solution and sort of allowing yourself to
• 7:39
  just go. That was really bad.
• 7:42
  And, and that's how you sort of heal from those moments.
• 7:45
  And it took me a long time to be able to do that and also be able
• 7:49
  to be comfortable sort of letting go of some of the guilt
• 7:54
  from suicide, which is obviously, you know, guilt with
• 7:57
  people that, you know, grief brings up feelings of guilt for
• 7:59
  almost everyone that goes through it.
• 8:01
  But particularly around suicide, there can be a huge burden of
• 8:06
  what did I do wrong? What could I have done
• 8:08
  differently? And in my case, that night, we
• 8:11
  had had an argument. So there was a huge amount of of
• 8:16
  guilt that I felt that that was what triggered that event that
• 8:20
  night. Obviously, that's not how it
• 8:21
  works. I know that now, but.
• 8:23
  But it's still my, my husband, his best friend from school was
• 8:27
  a junior doctor actually, and he was a very high or low person.
• 8:31
  And one night Paul, my husband said, I need to go and see Paul
• 8:34
  Doc, this, this other Paul. I said, why, why now?
• 8:37
  Like we're in Manchester, he's in in Devon.
• 8:40
  Why do you, I know something's wrong, something's wrong.
• 8:42
  And he was really agitated. And this was a long time ago.
• 8:45
  We had no phones, we had no Internet.
• 8:48
  You couldn't just like snap and see where his location was.
• 8:51
  Anyway, the next morning, we got a phone call to say that he'd
• 8:54
  been found in a hotel room and had taken his life And and Paul
• 8:58
  for even now, he feels really guilty.
• 9:00
  Like, what if I'd gone down? Could I?
• 9:02
  And he could have probably stopped it that day.
• 9:04
  I'm sure he could have done, but I don't think he would have
• 9:06
  stopped the event. And it took him many years to, I
• 9:11
  mean, to stop feeling quite as guilty.
• 9:14
  It has such an effect on people. A massive effect effect on on
• 9:19
  everyone. I mean, it's devastating and and
• 9:21
  I will never fully recover from it, right?
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  I mean, it's a trauma that will just stay with me for the rest
• 9:26
  of my life. And also, you know, I've
• 9:29
  naturally I know, come into contact with a lot of people
• 9:32
  that bereaved by suicide and recently bereaved with suicide.
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  And one of the first things I say to people when I do talk to
• 9:40
  them is, you know, your brain will try and rationalize this,
• 9:43
  but the suicidal brain is working in a completely
• 9:46
  irrational way. You know, you get cognitive
• 9:49
  constriction where you are essentially just creating this
• 9:52
  tunnel in your brain that only sees one final result.
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  And there is no way that a rational brain can understand
• 10:00
  what that's like. And that's very, very difficult
• 10:03
  me. And I guess from from my point
• 10:05
  of view, when I've looked back at those feelings that those
• 10:07
  feelings of guilt, you start to realize that me blaming myself
• 10:12
  was an easy option because that makes sense.
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  Oh, I did this that resulted in this.
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  And that's why he's died is so much more easy to understand
• 10:21
  than he had an illness I don't understand.
• 10:23
  There was something going on in his brain that I don't
• 10:25
  understand. And he decided to do this to all
• 10:27
  of us. I don't understand.
• 10:28
  So you start to realize actually you're rationalizing that
• 10:31
  situation by saying, oh, it must have just been something I did,
• 10:35
  which is much easier to then direct anger and sadness at than
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  just this was an illness. And it's really very, very
• 10:43
  difficult to understand. Absolutely.
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  And you know, I did a lot of psychiatry.
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  I trained in Manchester. The psychiatry training I had
• 10:49
  actually was really good, but it was at around the time just
• 10:54
  before Prozac. So which is interesting because
• 10:59
  we did a lot of training about just looking at this individual,
• 11:04
  the circumstances, looking at psychotherapy, looking at
• 11:08
  psychology, looking at exercise, looking at nutrition.
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  And then Prozac came out and it was around the time I was
• 11:15
  because I did hospital medicine first, then went into being AGP
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  and it really was this wonder drug.
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  And people would come in 10 minute consultations like, oh, I
• 11:24
  can give you this tablet, tablet, tablet.
• 11:26
  Warning people they might get worse before they get better.
• 11:28
  Like if they're bad, you don't want them to be worse.
• 11:31
  And not really because they didn't give them any support
• 11:33
  because in the NHS there was less support.
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  Even now there's even less. So we're medicalising something
• 11:39
  very quickly. And now with the work that I do,
• 11:41
  I do a lot. I see so many women who have
• 11:44
  been sectioned, they've been under psychiatrists.
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  Obviously no one's thought about their hormones, but the role of
• 11:51
  everything else other than just a medication is crucially
• 11:55
  important, isn't it? Oh, you're so, so, so right.
• 11:59
  And this is one of the frustrations I have with how we
• 12:02
  talk and treat about treat mental health now is it seems
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  like we've completely forgotten about the biopsychosocial model
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  of health and illness, honest. And so essentially what that
• 12:13
  means is we have those 3 categories to health.
• 12:16
  So we have biological health, psychological health and social
• 12:19
  health. And actually all of those things
• 12:21
  determine your mental health. And at the moment, if you're
• 12:24
  struggling with your mental health, you might go to a
• 12:27
  primary care professional, you might get diagnosed with
• 12:30
  depression, and then you might receive an SSRI or an
• 12:33
  antidepressant and then receive talking therapy.
• 12:35
  But that's just targeting psychological health.
• 12:38
  But you've got these two other things, your biology, your
• 12:40
  biological health, your social health, your relationships, your
• 12:44
  socio economic environment, all these other things that feed
• 12:48
  into your mental health. And it does feel like for a lot
• 12:53
  of people, we make them feel broken and unwell, but actually
• 12:58
  in reality, they've got all this other stuff that's going on
• 13:01
  that's not really looked at. And you're right, I think we, we
• 13:05
  need, we can't just treat an individual as this is 1 area of
• 13:09
  your health that we're going to target and make better.
• 13:11
  When actually, it's very commonly a combination of all
• 13:14
  three of those things that just aren't.
• 13:16
  Absolutely is. And, you know, the medicines
• 13:19
  really siloed, which doesn't help.
• 13:22
  And then, you know, I was reading recently about the
• 13:25
  history of asylums and psychiatric hospitals.
• 13:27
  And psychiatric hospitals used to have really big grounds, as
• 13:30
  you know, they used to do. You know, they have swimming
• 13:32
  pools. They do all this exercise and
• 13:35
  then suddenly they realised they could put loads of consulting
• 13:38
  rooms in, so they'd cover the swimming pools, they'd put in
• 13:41
  loads of consulting rooms, Bang, bang, bang, bang, here you go.
• 13:44
  They could get through loads of people and medicalise.
• 13:47
  And I'm not saying medicine hasn't got a role.
• 13:49
  I've, I've managed and treated lots of people with
• 13:51
  antidepressants, but it's not the only thing.
• 13:54
  And then now there's so many people that are addicted to
• 13:57
  antidepressants that they are, they do have side effects.
• 14:00
  They can have risks, but it's it's got to be looking more than
• 14:04
  that. And it's hard.
• 14:06
  It's really hard for any of us to take responsibility for our
• 14:09
  health. And it's really difficult when
• 14:11
  people are feeling low and down because the last thing you want
• 14:15
  to do is exercise. The last thing you want to do is
• 14:17
  cook a really healthy meal. The last thing you want to do is
• 14:20
  socialise. But this is where awareness is
• 14:24
  so important. The way you're doing is
• 14:26
  incredibly important is the silent people, the people that
• 14:29
  are withdrawn, the people that hide it, I think are the ones
• 14:33
  that worry me the most. I don't know if that's what
• 14:36
  you're sort of experiencing with the work that you're doing.
• 14:39
  Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously depression can
• 14:43
  be experienced in different ways.
• 14:45
  You've got mild, moderate and severe.
• 14:47
  And I know that when Sam was at his most severe, it was a case
• 14:51
  of there was nothing that could have got him out of his room.
• 14:55
  And you know what, in my work as well, I'm a crisis volunteer.
• 14:59
  So I do a lot of work with people that are very, at the
• 15:01
  very severe end of, of problems and issues.
• 15:04
  And, you know, sometimes it's a case of, you know, the a big, a
• 15:08
  very, very big step for them is opening the curtains to let some
• 15:12
  light into a room. I mean, that's a big step for
• 15:14
  some people. So the the depths that you can
• 15:17
  go into that illness is just unimaginable for for someone
• 15:21
  that hasn't experienced that. And I think that just goes to
• 15:24
  show why it's so important that we do treat this differently.
• 15:30
  You know, it's there's a lot of sort of catch phrases around
• 15:34
  mental health at the moment. You know, everyone needs to talk
• 15:37
  more and there's no health without mental health.
• 15:40
  And it's all true. But it's like actually in real
• 15:43
  terms, what do we need to do differently?
• 15:45
  And that's what really interests me.
• 15:47
  I'm, you know, I went to uni and did engineering.
• 15:49
  So I'm a sort of, I've said before in this podcast, I'm a
• 15:52
  practical person, I like practical solutions.
• 15:54
  I'm not into catch phrases. I want to get stuff done.
• 15:58
  And So what on a policy level in the NHS or in the healthcare
• 16:02
  level, what can we be doing differently that assesses that
• 16:05
  need better in an education environment?
• 16:07
  What can we do if doing differently in schools?
• 16:09
  It's going to improve access to care pathways.
• 16:13
  And so I'm really interested in actually what are we doing?
• 16:17
  What can we be doing differently rather than just?
• 16:19
  What can we be saying differently?
• 16:21
  And you're absolutely right. And I think that's forgotten
• 16:23
  because often, especially in psychiatry, the way the DSM
• 16:27
  criteria is if you have this, if you have this diagnosis, it's
• 16:30
  this treatment pathway. And it's about treatment, about
• 16:33
  medication. Like my, my father died when I
• 16:35
  was 9 and I was a long time ago. So I didn't have any support at
• 16:38
  home, at school and even at school.
• 16:41
  And when the other two children were being told, I was sent out
• 16:44
  and I was like, my, my job was to give the headmaster a note.
• 16:48
  And I thought, oh, that's really important.
• 16:49
  I've obviously like, aren't I good?
• 16:51
  I was only 9 when I go to the headmaster.
• 16:53
  I'm very sorry about your father.
• 16:55
  And then my friends tell me afterwards, that was when it was
• 16:57
  announced to school, but no one would talk, you know, in the
• 17:00
  class about it. And I was really cross.
• 17:03
  And there is still times that I am still really cross the way it
• 17:05
  was handled. But but when you really miss
• 17:07
  someone or when something awful has happened at work or
• 17:09
  something, there are times where you just think, you know what, I
• 17:12
  just can't be doing this anymore.
• 17:14
  Now, I'm not clinically depressed.
• 17:15
  I don't need medication. But what I do need is somebody I
• 17:19
  can really trust. But then do I really want to
• 17:22
  tell my husband or my children? Because no, because they,
• 17:25
  they're really close and they'd worry about me.
• 17:27
  So how do I do you know what I mean?
• 17:28
  And it's, it's really important that people are not labeled and
• 17:34
  they're really treated in a very individual way because that's
• 17:39
  the worry that I have because people are literally, of course,
• 17:43
  if I say that it's going to be on my medical records.
• 17:45
  I've got a psychiatric illness and I'll never get life
• 17:47
  insurance and I'll never be able to get a job.
• 17:50
  Actually, all I just want is someone to talk to you on one
• 17:52
  day because I'm really, really sad about something.
• 17:55
  And that's where I think so much, there's a lot of shame and
• 17:58
  stigma. You know, if I had a rash down
• 18:00
  my arm, I'd show you Ben, and you'd go, oh, that looks sore.
• 18:03
  You're OK if I tell you last night I was feeling really low,
• 18:07
  Like, how do I tell you you're a stranger, You're not going to,
• 18:09
  you know, it's, and I think this is, I mean, it's getting harder
• 18:13
  because we've all we read is that one in 10 people are on
• 18:16
  antidepressants, one in 100 have schizophrenia.
• 18:19
  Like So what? Like what are these stats we're
• 18:22
  showing? We know that mental health is
• 18:23
  worse. That's because we're labelling
• 18:25
  it more. But what are we actually doing?
• 18:27
  How are we changing it? And we are we just normalising
• 18:31
  it? Are we just medicalising people?
• 18:34
  But it's the way we talk about it is so important.
• 18:37
  And all these young people that are given hormone or they're
• 18:41
  blocking treatments, you know, the, a lot of the synthetic
• 18:43
  hormones just block our natural hormones.
• 18:45
  You know your your brother will have had some hormones flying
• 18:48
  round in his body. Who sat down then and really
• 18:51
  spoke to him. You are not going to feel like
• 18:54
  this forever. You might feel like this for a
• 18:57
  bit, like, you know, it's, it's those because it's enormous when
• 19:00
  you've got those feelings, isn't it?
• 19:01
  It, it's oh, that was so perfect.
• 19:04
  And I wish more than anything that Sam could have sat there
• 19:07
  and listened to that because it's so, so true.
• 19:11
  And it's so heartbreakingly sad that so many people think of
• 19:15
  their when they're in that low moment that that is fixed.
• 19:18
  And that's never going to change.
• 19:20
  And it is so, so, so normal for all of us to experience symptoms
• 19:26
  of depression at some point. You know, I, I completely reject
• 19:29
  this idea that one in four people will experience symptoms
• 19:32
  of a mental illness in their life.
• 19:33
  I think it's four and four. Everyone feels sad.
• 19:36
  Everyone experiences poor mental health.
• 19:38
  And we've had, all of us have had days where we sit there and
• 19:40
  we have no motivation to do anything.
• 19:42
  And we feel awful and we feel dreadful.
• 19:44
  And we know that that passes. And even even on the extreme
• 19:50
  end, suicidal thoughts and suicidal actions, these are so,
• 19:54
  so common. One in five people will have
• 19:57
  suicidal thoughts. One in five it's.
• 19:59
  Huge. Isn't it?
• 20:00
  Which is huge. And So what that tells me is
• 20:03
  that it's not something to be scared of.
• 20:05
  Or. Ashamed of and I think there's
• 20:08
  this real stigma that goes along with thinking about suicide and
• 20:12
  feeling sad that goes something must be really wrong.
• 20:15
  And actually to a certain extent, we all have those
• 20:17
  thoughts about, you know, whether we on the right path or
• 20:20
  what life has in store and whether it's worth it.
• 20:23
  And it's very, very normal. And to your point as well, what
• 20:25
  I really like about your work and what you highlight here as
• 20:28
  well, is that a lot of people sit there and receive a
• 20:33
  diagnosis and go through therapy and feel sad and think that
• 20:40
  they've done something wrong or they are inherently weak or
• 20:43
  broken. When actually it can be caused
• 20:46
  by something that is completely out of your control.
• 20:49
  It can be a medication you've been put on that's affecting the
• 20:53
  chemical imbalance, chemicals in your brain and hormones.
• 20:56
  It can be your diet, it can be your environment.
• 20:59
  It can be stressed. It can be work.
• 21:01
  It can be all these things that have nothing to do with your
• 21:04
  personality and your and your yourself.
• 21:07
  And I think that's what I'd love to go back to Sam and say is
• 21:10
  like, you are not the problem. You are not the problem.
• 21:14
  And if we think back to that biopsychosocial social model of
• 21:18
  mental health, you know, just because you're feeling bad does
• 21:22
  not mean that you have done something wrong or done
• 21:25
  something to deserve the way you're feeling.
• 21:28
  And in fact, actually, it's usually the opposite.
• 21:30
  And there are factors that are influencing how you feel.
• 21:33
  And if you can identify those and change those, there's no
• 21:36
  reason why you can't live a very, very happy, healthy life,
• 21:41
  which is which is achievable, I think for for almost everyone
• 21:44
  that that goes through I. Think so.
• 21:46
  I think it's being strong of mind as well.
• 21:48
  And like one of the things a while ago when I was really
• 21:52
  feeling awful, someone said to me, Louise, you're not being
• 21:54
  kind to yourself. You've got this inner thing that
• 21:57
  you're almost torturing yourself and you're, you've suppressed
• 22:01
  your emotions for so long. And, and it is actually
• 22:04
  thinking, no, I've got to put myself first.
• 22:06
  I've got to like be kind, but, but kind in a way that you can
• 22:10
  respect those emotions and understand them and not ignore
• 22:13
  them. You know, like, yes, I don't
• 22:15
  want to open the curtains this morning, but you know what I'm
• 22:17
  going to because the sun might be out there.
• 22:18
  And then and it's sort of it's, it's that way of thinking
• 22:21
  because things can be very catastrophic very quickly.
• 22:25
  But it's also, you know, anyone that's listening to this
• 22:28
  thinking about there are other reasons and it's often more than
• 22:31
  one reason. So, you know, mental health and
• 22:34
  hormones are very closely associated, but of often there's
• 22:38
  something else, maybe a poor relationship or diet or not
• 22:41
  exercising. You know, it's not usually one
• 22:44
  thing and therefore there's not just one treatment as well.
• 22:48
  But it is, you know, as a doctor, I feel very responsible
• 22:51
  trying to make the right diagnosis and asking the right
• 22:55
  questions is really important. So as an example, I saw someone
• 22:58
  in my clinic about a year ago, someone phoned me up and said
• 23:01
  like my best friends, brothers, sisters, cousins, whatever, wife
• 23:07
  is really really struggling. I was just like well if that's
• 23:09
  fine, tell me what bit more. Well we're really worried that
• 23:11
  she's going to harm herself. So I said OK I'll see her.
• 23:15
  So I spoke to her the next day and the story goes she's in her
• 23:19
  mid 40s, fit and well no problems at all.
• 23:22
  So I said, do you feel like this every day?
• 23:24
  She said no, not every day, but some days I do.
• 23:27
  I said, well, what stopped you from doing it?
• 23:29
  Oh, because I can hear my children playing in the garden
• 23:31
  and think that's really not. So she's got insight, which is
• 23:34
  great. So then I said but but anything
• 23:37
  about you still getting your period?
• 23:38
  She said yes. I said, so do you get symptoms
• 23:41
  on any? Is it any correlation with your
• 23:43
  periods? Oh yeah.
• 23:44
  She said just before my periods come, that's when I feel so low.
• 23:47
  And then my period comes and I feel fine again, apart from my
• 23:50
  dreading my next period coming because I know it's going to
• 23:51
  happen. So she's made her diagnosis.
• 23:55
  All she needed was some hormones to just balance natural
• 23:58
  hormones, not contraception on those few days.
• 24:01
  And she's become perimenopausal. So now she's absolutely fine.
• 24:05
  Very simple, but very scary. But it's also very scary to talk
• 24:10
  to people with mental illness because you think, oh, if I
• 24:13
  mention that then they might actually do it.
• 24:16
  They're less likely to do it actually, if you can talk about
• 24:19
  it. So I think you know the ways
• 24:21
  that we can talk about it, ways we can be open.
• 24:24
  And I know you're doing amazing work with shout as well and and
• 24:27
  your book here, this book could save your life.
• 24:30
  Well, not just yours, but anyone's really.
• 24:32
  So talking about it, acknowledging it, but talking to
• 24:36
  others, recognising others is is just crucially important.
• 24:40
  So it's great that you're talking here on A4 main podcast.
• 24:44
  You'd have thought it's brilliant.
• 24:46
  It's brilliant. So you've done your ultra
• 24:47
  marathon because I feeling very like I've done some yoga this
• 24:52
  morning, but I'm not sure that's anything compared to an ultra
• 24:55
  marathon, but it's amazing. Thank you.
• 24:57
  Well, like, I think it's, you know, it's something I feel so
• 25:00
  passionate about, is trying to really, you know, move this
• 25:05
  forward and get more people talking about it and raise money
• 25:07
  and, and do these challenges. And I've just run out of my
• 25:10
  first Ultramarathon on Sunday. I'm feeling very sore.
• 25:13
  It's quite nice to sit down on a very comfy chair.
• 25:17
  And it's it's, it's lovely to be able to do something like this.
• 25:20
  And I just think it's so important to have conversations
• 25:23
  like this. Yeah, because it's really
• 25:25
  important that we're not just talking about mental health, but
• 25:28
  we're talking about the specifics and treating.
• 25:31
  And I think we can just talk about mental health and sort of
• 25:35
  turn the page and go, well, that was a good conversation.
• 25:37
  But actually talking about what we've been talking about, which
• 25:40
  is treating the individual, asking questions, not just not
• 25:44
  just treating a diagnosis, but treating a person as a holistic,
• 25:48
  as an individual, treating their, you know, they're talking
• 25:52
  about relationships, talking about their biology, talking
• 25:54
  about their, their psychology. And it's really interesting as
• 25:58
  well how when you look at some of the research in terms of how
• 26:01
  men and women deal with certain issues, those those individual
• 26:06
  factors start playing out. And I know there's, there's some
• 26:08
  research that suggests that women can be much more internal
• 26:14
  with their response to stress. So when something happens, you
• 26:17
  can you can sort of internalize those feelings much more and
• 26:21
  sort of negative opinions and thoughts about yourself and
• 26:24
  things like that. Whereas men can be more likely
• 26:28
  to externalize those and we can see that an aggression and
• 26:31
  things like that. And it's really interesting when
• 26:33
  you think about things like that, that go actually there are
• 26:36
  not many issues, not many social issues that you can't tie back
• 26:40
  to mental health in some way. And so particularly with men and
• 26:46
  some of the problems we're seeing in society, you know, I'm
• 26:48
  really passionate about. I was in a school just a couple
• 26:51
  weeks ago with a group of group of boys in an all boys school.
• 26:54
  And it's, it's so nice to be able to talk about these things
• 26:57
  and go, you know, what's really important is feeling angry is
• 27:01
  one of the most important things you can do because the only time
• 27:05
  that emotions become a problem is when you stop them from
• 27:08
  coming out. And the reason that we suddenly
• 27:10
  feel these really intense moments of rage is because we've
• 27:13
  bottled up all this anger. And we've got a whole generation
• 27:16
  of men that have sort of grown up not being able to express
• 27:19
  emotions. And one of the key ones there is
• 27:22
  anger amongst a lot of others. And so, you know, being able to
• 27:26
  be angry in a healthy way is so, so important.
• 27:30
  Tell my husband that. Yeah.
• 27:32
  So when I do this, you know, like with running, it's a great
• 27:34
  way of doing that. So sometimes I'll just go for a
• 27:37
  run and I will find a hill and I will just Sprint as hard as I
• 27:42
  can up the hill. And I will just, I'll just be so
• 27:44
  angry and divert all my anger into that or, you know, go and
• 27:48
  kick a football as hard as I can into a goal and probably mess or
• 27:54
  like shout into a pillow and finding ways to, to express
• 27:58
  that, that anger is so important.
• 28:00
  And that's not, that's not, you know, that's not a difficult
• 28:03
  thing to do in your day-to-day. But it's the fact that we're not
• 28:07
  told that growing up, you know, I was never told that I've had
• 28:10
  to work that out for myself and, and learn that from
• 28:13
  professionals and, and read research, which obviously I
• 28:15
  wouldn't have done unless I, I was interested in this sort of
• 28:18
  thing. So that's what makes me really
• 28:20
  passionate about actually, you know, how do we change the
• 28:23
  curriculum in school? How do we change the environment
• 28:25
  in schools so that we we sort of put a bit more onus on learning
• 28:30
  about ourselves and our brains. I mean, you mentioned it right
• 28:33
  at the start of this podcast. The brain is probably the most
• 28:35
  or certainly the most important organ in in the body.
• 28:38
  Why on earth do we not learn more about how it works?
• 28:41
  So important. And how to keep it healthy and
• 28:44
  happy, Yeah. So important, so much we need to
• 28:47
  talk about, so much we need to change.
• 28:49
  Really need to change now. Not in 10 years, 20 years time,
• 28:52
  but now. So before I end, three take home
• 28:55
  tips. So three things.
• 28:58
  If people are listening and there will be people listening,
• 29:01
  thinking do you know what? That's me.
• 29:02
  And I don't know how to get help.
• 29:03
  I don't know what to do. I've gone to my doctor, I've got
• 29:06
  antidepressants. I'm still feeling low or I think
• 29:09
  it might be my friend that's feeling like that.
• 29:11
  What are the three things that they should do or they should do
• 29:14
  with their friends? It's a good question.
• 29:16
  If it's you that's struggling, the first thing I would say is I
• 29:24
  know it's a hot, it's a really difficult thing to, for me to
• 29:26
  say because it feels a bit patronizing, but just have a
• 29:29
  little bit of sympathy on yourself.
• 29:31
  I think there's a, a real pressure to sort things and feel
• 29:35
  like you have to have everything sorted and, and that you've done
• 29:39
  something wrong and, or you're, you're not strong enough to get
• 29:42
  through something. And I just think having a little
• 29:44
  bit of sympathy for what you're going through is really
• 29:46
  important. Not blaming yourself and, and
• 29:50
  sort of creating an environment where you can be supportive and,
• 29:54
  and, and of yourself is really important.
• 29:57
  If things aren't working, You know, I think what's really
• 30:01
  important is to be demanding. If you're in a care, if you're,
• 30:07
  you have a care team, if you're in touch with, with care, with
• 30:11
  professionals and doctors and, and you have a care team,
• 30:14
  whatever that looks like, or if you don't, you know, just ask
• 30:17
  for what you need. I think people have this idea
• 30:20
  that, you know, you sort of accept what you're given and,
• 30:23
  and be quiet. But actually, you know, whether
• 30:25
  it's whether you're at school or university and you're getting
• 30:28
  treatment or you're in the NHS or private and you're not
• 30:31
  getting what you need, then don't just accept what people
• 30:35
  give you. Just challenge that.
• 30:36
  And, and, and, and, you know, know that that you're well
• 30:39
  within your rights to say this isn't working.
• 30:41
  This how I feel. And I think this is something we
• 30:43
  need need, or this is what I'd like to focus on and look at
• 30:46
  now. I know that's a really difficult
• 30:47
  thing to do, but but don't feel like you're putting anyone out
• 30:50
  by doing that. If you're worried about someone
• 30:52
  else, the first thing I'd say is it's never going to.
• 30:58
  You'll never get. There's nothing you can say is
• 31:00
  going to make someone more likely to take their own life.
• 31:05
  Talking about suicide categorically, categorically
• 31:09
  doesn't make people take their own life or cause more harm.
• 31:12
  And there is reams of research that can show that you asking
• 31:15
  someone about suicide isn't going to put thoughts in the
• 31:17
  head. It is not going to make them
• 31:19
  suddenly go, oh, that's a good idea.
• 31:21
  It just doesn't happen. So asking straight up is really,
• 31:24
  really important. I've asked that question now so
• 31:28
  many times in my job and, and, and I promise you there is no,
• 31:33
  there is no such thing as a bad answer to that question.
• 31:36
  Because if the answer to that question is no, I'm not, that's
• 31:39
  great. If the answer to that question
• 31:41
  is yes, amazing, we know what we're dealing with and we can
• 31:45
  sort out a plan together. So asking and sort of talking
• 31:49
  about these things head on is really, really important.
• 31:52
  And like you said, finding the environment.
• 31:54
  So going for a drive where you're not looking at the person
• 31:56
  going for, I love going for a walk.
• 31:59
  I try and avoid environments where you're talking to someone
• 32:01
  face to face like we're doing now.
• 32:03
  It's intimidating, right, If you're talking about difficult
• 32:05
  things, but but asking is really important and trying and working
• 32:10
  out what you want to say before so you're not just sort of
• 32:12
  making it up on the spot can be helpful to sort of find the
• 32:15
  words because it's a difficult conversation to have.
• 32:17
  But, but always err on the side of caution and ask those
• 32:21
  questions. People don't get offended
• 32:24
  because you've asked. They, they, they know that
• 32:25
  you're doing it because you, you care.
• 32:28
  And you're certainly not going to make people more likely to
• 32:31
  come into harm by asking these questions.
• 32:34
  So those are those are what I'd say to to those two people.
• 32:37
  Brilliant, great advice and thank you.
• 32:39
  Really thank you for your time and thanks for all the work
• 32:42
  you're doing. It's really good.
• 32:43
  Thank. You thank you so much.
• 32:44
  Great to be here. Subscribe to my newsletter for
• 32:50
  exclusive insights and updates on new episodes.