Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Christie Arkovich | Can You Build Wealth with 6-Figures in Student Loan Debt?

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Christie Arkovich | Can You Build Wealth with 6-Figures in Student Loan Debt? · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Davina Frederick: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the wealthy
0:04
woman lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Nina Frederick, the
0:07
creator of wealthy woman lawyer podcast and also the founder of
0:11
wealthy woman lawyer, which is a coaching business that helps
0:15
women law firm owners scale their law for businesses to and
0:18
through a million dollars with total ease. And today, I am
0:22
super excited for today's guests. Because this topic we're
0:26
going to be talking about is hot, hot, hot. It is something
0:29
that so many of the names so many people in the nation and so
0:33
many women law firm owners are dealing with, and it can be a
0:36
real impediment to wealth, unless we deal with it. So we're
0:39
gonna put it on the table and talk about it today. And that is
0:42
student loan debt. And I'm excited about my guest because
0:47
she is truly an expert in his area. She has more than 30 years
0:52
experience as a lawyer, she graduated from Stetson Law in
0:56
1992. And she actually worked for Sallie Mae and ECFC or ECFC
1:04
and other student loan servicers before opening her own law firm,
1:08
which she did in I think 1995. Is that correct? Christy? Yeah.
1:13
And so she helps her clients with can deal with consumer
1:18
debt, so bankruptcy, student loan debt, all of the things
1:22
that factor into getting out of debt, managing debt, and really
1:27
getting your financial life back on track. So pristine
1:30
archivists, every one of our events law, she is in South
1:34
Tampa. And so I'm really glad she's here today, because we're
1:37
bracing for a hurricane here in Florida. Welcome, Christy.
1:41
Unknown: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be
1:43
in it. Yeah. So
1:45
Davina Frederick: tell me you are all Are you all of you said
1:49
that you are actually out of the state today. But I assume your
1:51
team is all batten down the hatches over there in Tampa.
1:54
And,
1:55
Unknown: you know, yeah, we closed tomorrow and the next
1:58
day, and we've secured our computers and sandbags for our
2:02
doors and things like that. But I like to joke I evacuated
2:05
months ahead of time to Iowa, where I am now.
2:09
Davina Frederick: Very nice. And yeah, you're in a lovely place.
2:10
I'm sitting here looking and being that fireplace that you
2:13
have behind me I really
2:16
Unknown: have it on. But you know, it is getting to the 40s
2:18
in the evening now at night, which is fantastic. I mean, in
2:21
Florida, it's always hot. So that's
2:23
Davina Frederick: like yes, indeed. Yes, indeed, it's a
2:26
little you know, we'll have a little cool here right now. But
2:28
as soon as that hurricane blows through, it's going to take all
2:31
the air with it. And probably not great hair days next week
2:35
with. But anyway, let's get on with today's topic and start out
2:42
by hand if I'd gave a very brief introduction of you, but why
2:45
don't you tell us a little bit more about you, your law firm
2:48
and how you help your clients?
2:50
Unknown: Sure. Well, when I graduated 92, it was sort of
2:53
during a little bit of a recession. And so I had worked
2:57
for three other or for two other law firms with three of the law
3:00
firms for about a couple of years before I started my own
3:03
firm and one of our clients was a big student loan guarantor
3:07
Sallie Mae USA funds was was a company back then. And so I did
3:12
that work. And that was one client who I took with me when I
3:15
left because the firm I was with didn't want to have anything to
3:18
do with student loans. And so what we did for it kind of
3:21
gradually, gradually increased to represent a CMC, which is the
3:25
guarantor of a lot of the older loans. And they're the one that
3:29
really litigates most of it. So we ran around the state of
3:31
Florida and I tried discharge cases for student loans in
3:35
bankruptcy, in Miami, and Jacksonville, and Orlando, and
3:38
Tampa, and really got my feet wet then. And then after that, I
3:42
went to a boot camp, I guess, or workshop, you should call it, by
3:48
Josh Cohen, up in Connecticut, to kind of learn some of the
3:50
federal programs because, you know, practicing in bankruptcy,
3:54
you really didn't know anything about the federal program. So
3:55
that kind of clued me in on other options out there. And
3:59
then it just continued to grow from there. And so when I opened
4:03
my own practice, I focused on employment law, which was always
4:06
a true love of mine and in bankruptcy as well. And for your
4:12
listeners, the reason I did that combination, was because
4:15
employment law was more attorney intensive, and it was more
4:19
contingency fee, I got paid larger sums at the end of the
4:22
case where bankruptcy was more covered the day to day, you
4:25
know, is up front it covered a lot of took a lot of staff time
4:29
instead of my time. And so it was a good fit. For my firm. I
4:32
think every firm, it's good to have more than one practice
4:35
area. Because something can happen and it can just wipe out
4:38
your practice instantaneous. And so that was a good fit for a
4:42
number of years. And then I just kind of moved along and back to
4:45
student loans. When the market was ready for that it wasn't
4:48
really ready back then. But it's clearly in the last 10 years.
4:52
We've needed some big help with student loans.
4:55
Davina Frederick: Right? Absolutely. Was there a change
4:59
in the law? At some point, or has it always sort of been this
5:02
way, but it just hasn't been a problem? Because the amount that
5:06
people were borrowing was different. Are there more
5:08
standards in place? But? Or was there a shift someplace that you
5:12
sort of like I remember borrowing as an undergrad, way
5:15
back in the day. And fortunately, I didn't borrow
5:18
very much. And, you know, I don't remember as many people
5:25
struggling with student loan debt in the way that we are
5:29
today. So can you give us kind of a little history, so you
5:32
certainly have for 30 years have probably seen a little bit of
5:34
ebb and flow in this area?
5:36
Unknown: Well, back when I graduated law school in 1991.
5:42
That was exactly the case, I, I'm an attorney only because of
5:46
my student loans. So I believe in the program, I think it's
5:49
very important to have the availability of student loans.
5:51
But when I graduated, it was a ratio of one to one. In other
5:55
words I owe about what my first year salary was. And it wasn't
5:59
hard for me to pay that loan, and I paid the loans back in the
6:02
10 years or whatnot. And that's the way it was, you know,
6:05
everybody had a 10 year time period. But now the ratios
6:09
aren't one to one. And the longer you usually have someone
6:11
who isn't able to obtain employment right away, or the
6:15
ratios are up to two to one to eight to one, where they just
6:19
really can't repay that. And I even had a high rate of
6:23
interest. You know, when we graduated in the 80s, and 90s.
6:25
From college and law school, the rates of interest were eight to
6:28
8% 12%. mean, that's high, very high, right? But because the
6:32
amount we borrowed was so low, it wasn't a problem. We're now
6:36
you know, with Parent Plus loans and grab loans, the interest
6:38
rates are 6.8 to 8.5. You've got private loans that are all over
6:42
the place, you know, they go up from like 3%, to 15% and such,
6:47
and that ratio is no longer one to one. So it's not really a
6:50
shift in the legal environment that has gotten to that it's the
6:53
tuition costs. And the fact that people just can't repay those
6:58
loans. And so most of our clients nowadays, you know, they
7:01
want to repay what they borrow, they understand they signed a
7:03
contract, they're good with that, what they can't pay as
7:06
they excessiveness, you know what it's become basically,
7:09
because with the cost of interest with a default, which
7:12
basically adds 25% collection costs on a federal loan, you end
7:17
up with just something that's unpayable and we get rid of that
7:19
excessiveness. And then we try to do it in a way that's tax
7:23
free, or at least with an understanding of what that
7:26
potential tax issue could be.
7:28
Davina Frederick: Wow. Yeah, I've heard so many stories from
7:33
women law firm owners who are, by the time they they're out on
7:38
their own and opening their own practice, they have six figures
7:41
in debt, and, and multiple, six figures. So quarter million
7:47
dollars is kind of a common amount that I hear. I've heard
7:50
up $350,000, the most I ever heard was $650,000 in student
7:57
loans, because she had gotten multiple degrees and change
7:59
careers, and things like that. And a lot of women law firm
8:03
owners, when they go out and start their own business,
8:05
they're doing it as solos, and they're lucky, you know, they're
8:07
making $50,000, the first year in just revenue, like it's so
8:11
it's not even, it doesn't the math doesn't even make sense.
8:15
And that's if they choose to start their own business. Or if
8:19
they feel like they're forced into starting their own business
8:21
because they can't get a job, which certainly was the case
8:23
after the 2008 recession. A lot of people did that. And also,
8:32
even if they do get a job, there are it depends on the market
8:35
they're in because there are a lot of markets that are paying
8:37
those six figure salaries for associates, it's the top 1% of
8:42
the top 1% of law schools, you're going to get these, I
8:45
have a friend whose son recently graduated from a top law school,
8:50
top of his class, and he's going to have you know, $350,000
8:55
salary out of law school for a fair amount of New York, but
8:58
that's a rarity. The majority of lawyers are out there making
9:03
more regular salaries, unlike what people think they're
9:05
making. So there's a real disconnect, I think and
9:11
understanding of what what is going on with the student loan.
9:15
And I think in general, the public has a real
9:17
misunderstanding, because a lot of people who are my age are
9:20
saying, hey, if they didn't borrow money to go to school,
9:24
there's their or they did and they long ago, paid it back.
9:27
They're sitting there looking at it going, I don't understand I
9:29
pay back my loans. How come you aren't able to pay back your
9:33
loans?
9:33
Unknown: Right, and we deal with that with private loans. The
9:37
borrower has to have a co borrower. And so usually that's
9:40
a parent or a grandparent, and like you said, most of those
9:42
grandparents and even parents have paid their own loan back so
9:45
they don't get it. But the problem is, is back then you
9:48
could pay for a course with a summer waitress job. You can't
9:51
do that anymore. You know that part time work while it might
9:55
open your eyes as to what you want to do. Maybe open your
9:59
contacts for that working and externships and things like
10:02
that, it doesn't pay much. And so with the cost of tuition,
10:05
it's not really doing that. And that's one of the things that we
10:08
do is we try to get that grandparent or parent in on the
10:11
communications and have them understand, there's no way for a
10:15
borrower to deal with this loan in a traditional sense. It's
10:19
just not a not a possibility, really. And so when you
10:22
mentioned the amounts of debt that people have, we do have a
10:25
lot of attorneys as clients, and they are usually in the lower
10:28
six figures. I think our highest has been 1,100,000. And yeah, in
10:36
history was he was a neurosurgeon. And he was at the
10:38
very end of his career. And what he had done is he taken out his
10:41
own loans, he paid them back. And he taken out Parent Plus
10:44
loans for his three children. Now, they had their own loans.
10:47
So they had a lot of loans that they used to go through med
10:49
school, medical school, but he had Parent Plus loans, too. And
10:52
so with all the years of forbearance, the balance kept
10:55
getting bigger and bigger. And so when he did make payments, it
10:58
never really made much of a dent. So he, when we did the
11:00
math, he probably paid the vast majority of the principal back,
11:04
but he's still owed a million dollars. And so he came to me
11:07
and he was in his early 70s, he was still working as a
11:10
neurosurgeon. And he was afraid to settle it because he'd have
11:14
this giant taxable event. And he was worried he couldn't keep
11:17
working, because he was afraid he might commit malpractice one
11:20
day. And so we use what we call this total and permanent
11:23
disability program. And we were able to get rid of the loans in
11:26
about I think it was about eight months or so. And, you know,
11:30
that let him basically in his career, and enjoy retirement
11:34
where he was stuck, he was really stuck where he was when
11:37
he first reached out to us. So 1,000,001 is my record.
11:40
Davina Frederick: Yeah, well, and I'm glad that you shared
11:42
that story in particular, because I think a lot of people
11:46
tend to think of student loans as being okay, these are this is
11:50
Gen, z and millennials, right, they're thinking that are having
11:56
this problem with honors, you know, why they don't work. And
11:58
you know, and of course, those of us who are actually boots on
12:02
the ground talking to people all the time about this, we
12:04
understand that, you know, we're talking people in their 30s and
12:07
40s. And, and on up, the article I just posted that was discussed
12:13
recently on Facebook, are people in their 60s and 70s, and their
12:16
parents, grandparents, who co signed on loans who were helping
12:20
out their their kids, and really not able to retire. But I, I'm
12:25
really concerned about this group kind of in their 30s and
12:28
40s. Because in addition to their own loans, they're getting
12:33
married, and they're marrying somebody else's debt. So that's
12:36
another way debt can really spiral out of control, you've
12:40
got your debt, they've got their debt, you're paying these
12:42
really, you know, high interest rates, the it was an a
12:46
ridiculous amount to begin with, and, and then they are putting
12:49
it all together and going, oh, gosh, how do we? How do we deal
12:53
with this? It delays buying a house delay starting a family,
12:56
it delays, all those things that impact the economy? Are you
12:59
seeing a lot of couples kind of come in and say, hey, you know,
13:03
what can we do about this?
13:05
Unknown: Oh, well, we've seen folks that say, I'm scared to
13:08
get married, and they just put the decision off. So we
13:11
generally won't have a couple that comes in to talk about each
13:14
of their loans, we'll have someone that just avoids
13:16
marriage because of that, and that's yeah.
13:20
Davina Frederick: Wow. And that it wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't
13:23
have a big impact that has on somebody's life, to make the
13:27
decision to not get married or not get that much involved. Some
13:30
because you're worried about the amount of money or you don't
13:35
want to marry into somebody who's also got the same amount
13:37
of money married to somebody, or you're maybe ashamed or
13:39
embarrassed about it. Do you deal with a lot of sort of shame
13:42
and embarrassment for people, especially highly educated
13:45
people? All right.
13:47
Unknown: Um, well, yes. I mean, many of our clients are
13:50
attorneys, we did a seminar recently for the Florida Bar on
13:53
student loans, a couple of them, actually. And it had the highest
13:55
attendance because, you know, attorneys have a lot of debt.
13:58
And they're ashamed of it, yes. But they really are talking with
14:05
me trying to find a solution. They don't look to me as more of
14:09
a counselor, they're looking to me more of a problem solver. So
14:14
our conversation just goes in that direction. Many times they
14:18
don't want their parents credit affected if they've cosign
14:22
something. So we're trying to, you know, make sure that that
14:24
doesn't happen. We're focusing on certain loans in a certain
14:27
order to avoid that. Because they don't want their problem to
14:30
become their family's problem. We do
14:32
Davina Frederick: see that right, right, for sure.
14:35
Unknown: But for people that want to build their wealth, they
14:37
really need to have an ownership interest in their firm and maybe
14:41
get out and start their own firm and student loan debt is causing
14:44
them to not do that or feel that they can't do that. And that's
14:47
where the problem, I think, really stem so I'm very happy
14:51
about some of the new progress the Department of Ed has made
14:54
this year. We had identified just so many problems over the
14:58
last few years. And I think What they're doing is plugging a lot
15:01
of those holes. And we'll get to some of that later here. Yeah.
15:05
For people in the future, I think,
15:07
Davina Frederick: before we get into kind of some of these
15:10
solutions, I do want to talk and I think a lot of people if they
15:15
have student loan debt, they're sort of aware of this. But
15:18
bankruptcy freshstart Bankruptcy is a, you know, has always been
15:23
something that's been a solution in the United States for so that
15:29
we don't go to debtors prison, people can get that fresh start
15:31
and start over. But student loans have been an exception to
15:35
that. Can you tell us why that is?
15:39
Unknown: Sure. in student loans, we have a test called the Bruner
15:44
standard. And it originated back in I think it was 1987. And it
15:48
was basically someone who had tried to discharge their loans
15:51
only a few months out of school. And because of the facts of that
15:56
case, the courts came down very harshly and created this three
16:00
prong test that folks can't meet. And you have to minimize
16:03
your expenses, which is not hard maximize your income, again, not
16:07
hard, provide proof of good faith repayment when you can,
16:11
but then that prong of for the for whatever your circumstances
16:15
are, they have to last for the majority of the repayment
16:17
period, that prong is impossible to prove. You can't prove
16:21
nowadays, that in 20 years, you can't pay back something towards
16:24
this loan, you can write a book you can have, you can have any
16:27
kind of you know, getting them signed, good regular job,
16:30
whatever it is. And so we can't meet that burden, we can't prove
16:34
that. And so bankruptcy, it's known that it fixes a car
16:38
problem, you know, fixes a house problem fixes a credit card
16:41
problem, but it really creates more of a student loan problem.
16:44
Because over the past decade or two decades, what's happened is
16:47
folks with student loans, the Department of Ed puts those
16:50
loans in forbearance, people don't file an emissary to try to
16:54
get rid of the loans because it's very hard to meet that
16:56
Brunner standard that I talked about. And so the loans just
16:59
continue to ride to the bankruptcy unaffected accruing
17:02
interest. So if you might have 50,000, when you start, you have
17:05
100,000. When you get out, then you have a few years of no
17:08
contact and another 50,000. And, and so we brought that to the
17:13
attention of our judges in the middle district here in Tampa.
17:16
And we also combine that with an inspector general's report that
17:21
showed that servicers gave improper advice 62% of the time,
17:26
whatever it is that they were doing, whether they're
17:27
calculating the interest putting someone in a program, they did
17:30
it wrong 62% of the time, and you know, if I were wrong 62% of
17:35
the time, I'd be disbarred. I mean, you
17:37
Davina Frederick: lose your license, for sure. For sure.
17:39
Well, that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother episode
17:42
of, you know, let's talk about banks and lenders. Because that
17:48
whole industry needs to be reformed.
17:52
Unknown: And so we were instrumental in helping the
17:54
middle district judges recognize that they can't just rely on the
17:58
servicers. And there's this problem out there of this
18:01
continuing debt that's getting bigger and bigger, and
18:04
bankruptcy attorneys weren't talking about it, because it
18:06
didn't understand student loans, you know, a few years back. And
18:09
so our district started a new program called Student Loan
18:12
management program. And it's been copied around the nation a
18:16
little bit, and it's growing momentum. And so what it does is
18:20
it allows someone to get the benefits that a borrower would
18:23
normally have in bankruptcy that they didn't get over the past
18:26
few years. And so that's been helpful. But then Congress does
18:30
have a bill that's before them, called the Fresh Start act,
18:34
coincidentally, where if it passes or some, you know, some
18:39
combination of factors does pass, it would have a 10 year
18:43
period where people who had been trying to repay for 10 years and
18:47
could show that would have an automatic discharge, because
18:50
then they didn't have to bring an adversary and things. So that
18:53
may pass. I mean, there's been attempts over the past few years
18:55
to try to get that passed. Right now with all the forgiveness is
18:59
occurring. Congress is kind of taking a step back, they're
19:02
starting to vote against things. So I give that less of a chance
19:06
of success now than I might have a few months ago. Yeah, but you
19:11
just never know. I mean, you never know with Congress.
19:14
Davina Frederick: Right? Right. And there's also a big
19:17
distinction between federal loans and private loans. And I
19:22
think a lot of times it can be confusing for people to know
19:30
what type of loan they have. Because as you're going through
19:33
as you're going through school, and you may have oh, you know,
19:37
this opportunity to consolidate these loans and you think it's
19:41
still a federal loan and then you find out later that it's a
19:44
private loan. I do think there's a lot of it's it's a complex
19:51
thing to understand what's really happening if you're not,
19:54
you know, an economist, you're not a bank or not literate. And
19:58
even if you are apparently you're having trouble
20:00
Understanding at least 62% of them are. Because I see that
20:03
I've seen that a lot too, where people think I have, I have a
20:07
federal loan, I'm going to benefit from this, you know,
20:09
recent act, and then they look at their loans and they go, Wait
20:12
a minute. Now my servicer is telling me no, I have this class
20:16
of loan, not that class of loan, which means at some point, it
20:19
was consolidated. And when that happened, it, they took it out
20:22
of federal status, so I now no longer benefit from it. Those
20:25
kind of how much do you see those kinds of complications?
20:29
And are there more things you could do in terms of bankruptcy?
20:33
If you have private loans? versus federal loans? Or how do
20:36
we how does all that sort of play out depending on what type
20:39
of loan you have?
20:40
Unknown: Okay, um, I see that problem every day, pretty much
20:44
with the different types of loans. And part of the problem
20:46
is, even the federal system is a little bit confusing. For one,
20:50
it's not transparent. So it's very hard for someone to figure
20:53
out what they have. lately, there's been more information
20:56
put up on student aid.gov, which is a government site that folks
20:59
can see. But part of the problem is servicers are talking about
21:02
these older federal loans as being a private loan. And
21:07
they're really not, they're privately held, and they may
21:09
have been privately originated, but they're actually a federal
21:12
loan, that they're only guaranteed by the government.
21:14
They're not actually owned, or created by the government. So
21:17
therefore, they're not covered by the Cares Act. The Cares Act
21:19
is what was passed at the beginning of COVID. That allowed
21:22
for zero interest, zero payments, and so forth. So we
21:25
have a lot of folks who, during COVID, they haven't really known
21:28
what they've had, and they haven't been able to consolidate
21:32
to change their loan type, which is one of the things that you
21:34
can do. And a lot of folks don't know to do that. So we do see
21:37
that problem all the time. With bankruptcy, the second part of
21:41
your question about, can you get rid of private loans in
21:45
bankruptcy, that is one of our great successes. In the past few
21:49
years, there have been some cases around the nation and, and
21:53
some of ours have been up in the forefront about discharging
21:56
private loans that are actually not student loans or not
22:00
qualified education loans. Maybe someone went to a Caribbean
22:03
medical school, they Oh, there's a ton of Caribbean medical
22:05
schools, I once looked it up, and there's like 50 schools out
22:08
there, wow, three of them are eligible for federal aid. Most
22:12
of the rests are funded by family money, you know, someone
22:15
pays cash, or a private loan, well, we can discharge the vast
22:20
majority of those. And many of those folks can't pass their
22:23
boards, you know, they incur all this debt, they try to come back
22:26
to the US and they can't be licensed. And so I think that's
22:31
a huge benefit for folks to be able to level the playing field
22:34
to get rid of those loans, potentially, because they're not
22:36
qualified. There's other reasons to have a non qualified
22:39
education loans. I won't get into it today. But there's,
22:41
there's about seven, eight different reasons. And so just
22:45
yesterday, for instance, we have one that was filed out of state
22:48
with CO counsel. And we have three defendants, one of which
22:53
just agreed to a stipulation of discharge of their private
22:57
student loan debt. And then we're going to wait and see what
22:59
the results are for the other two. So we can basically argue
23:04
things for private loans to get them discharged in bankruptcy
23:06
that we can't with federal loans.
23:09
Davina Frederick: Wow, wow. Yeah. And I do think there's a
23:11
lot of misinformation that's being used, go to your servicer,
23:21
and you try to get information. It's not really always reliable
23:25
information that you may be getting, right.
23:29
Unknown: Yeah, in one of the ways we actually ask our clients
23:32
to back check that you call their servicer four or five
23:35
times, they're likely to get three or four answers. One of
23:38
them might be right, but which one.
23:42
Davina Frederick: And that's where you get to do some
23:43
digging. So let's talk about some of the kind of solutions
23:49
for people that you're able to you guys are able to bring about
23:52
and help with. And we can start with kind of things that are
23:56
traditionally have been on the table, or we can talk about sort
23:58
of the stuff that's been happening in the last year?
24:01
Unknown: Well, probably let's focus on some of the things that
24:04
have been happening in the last year. Because that's where
24:06
people have the biggest questions is all these changes
24:09
they're hearing about in the news? How does it benefit me.
24:12
And so I think that's where their focus is. So first of all,
24:16
that 10,000 Forgiveness, that's what we hear a lot about, that's
24:19
not very much money. It could help some of the lower income
24:24
folks, because it would remove the default that might be on the
24:26
loans currently. But we're more focused on the Department of EDs
24:31
attempts to punch the holes, you know, fix the problems that
24:34
they've gotten the other programs, and there'll be a lot
24:36
more forgiveness with those fixes than there will with the
24:39
10,000 thing.
24:40
Davina Frederick: Wow, really. So give me some idea what that
24:43
what, what that would look like, all kinds of things. Are you
24:46
guys fighting for?
24:47
Unknown: Sure. Well, the first thing is if you have any folks
24:50
that are in public service, or have any relatives who are in
24:53
public service, that's the biggest fix. It's basically the
24:55
Public Service waiver, which is going to count old payments. on
25:00
old loans, whether they're the wrong type of loans, wrong type
25:03
of payment, any kind of problem that they've had, usually it can
25:06
be fixed with this waiver program. But it's important that
25:09
they do two things before October 31. One is make sure
25:13
that they consolidate any of their older federal loans, which
25:17
are called fel loans FF E L, it stands for Federal Family
25:20
Education Loan, but they're called fell or if they
25:23
consolidate those two direct loans, there'll be eligible for
25:25
that program. If they don't do that before October 31, then
25:30
it's going to go right back to the old way where people who've
25:33
been working public service expecting the forgiveness in 10
25:37
years, or only told that up, you got the wrong loan type, you
25:40
were never eligible eligible to begin with, that was a huge
25:42
problem. And it's gonna go back to being the same problem after
25:46
this one year is over, and the one year is almost over. Now it
25:48
ends October 31. So they need to direct, they also need to file a
25:53
public service. Certification, basically, you take a form to
25:56
your employer, they fill it out saying your full time you work
25:59
for qualified entity, and then you send it into mohila, who's
26:03
the new public service servicer, that's fixing a huge problem.
26:06
And, you know, importantly, there was an attorney I spoke
26:10
with a few weeks ago is a good example of this. This was
26:12
someone who makes pretty good money right now. But they had
26:15
been working public service for the vast majority of their
26:18
career. And so their student loan was huge, because they
26:21
thought that it was going to be forgiven at the end of their
26:24
public service. And it wasn't, but they now have their head in
26:28
the sand because they were so sick of the whole student loan
26:31
program, the whole problem, their loans were 300, some 1000,
26:34
they were a little older. And it might have even been more than
26:38
that I can't remember the exact number. But we went through
26:40
their circumstances and found out that they're going to be
26:43
eligible for this waiver, they just need to make sure that they
26:46
apply for it and change the loan type to qualify, he hadn't even
26:50
the only reason he reached out to me was because a friend of
26:53
his demanded that they call me. You know, because we'd help the
26:57
friend and he did. And so we were able to suggest to him
27:00
during the consultation what to do. And, you know, that's one of
27:04
the advantages of having a consultation is that you can
27:07
either, you know, learn how to fix it yourself. And know
27:11
exactly, you know, you're hearing from an advocate on your
27:13
side as to what you should do. Or you can hire that person, and
27:17
then they can go and fix it for you. But that public service
27:22
waiver program, he didn't have to go back to work for the
27:24
public service. A lot of folks still today, think that well,
27:27
that waiver program isn't for me, because I no longer work in
27:30
public service, maybe I did in the 90s or 2000s. But not
27:33
anymore. You don't have to go back. One of the provisions of
27:36
the waivers you you don't have to be working there. But the
27:40
regular program requires you to still be working for the
27:42
nonprofits. So these fixes in the last year, have limited
27:46
durations and public service is one of them. The second one is,
27:50
folks, during the past decade or so, they've been told if they
27:54
call their servicer and say oh, you know, I've got a problem
27:56
making my payment. I, you know, I've had this and that problem
27:59
this month. Instead of putting them on an income driven plan,
28:02
which is kind of what we do for someone who doesn't make enough
28:06
money to repay their student loans and maintain a standard of
28:09
living. They just put them on forbearance instead. And
28:13
forbearance is basically an easy fix. It's a way that someone
28:17
cannot make a payment. It's also a way to get them off the phone
28:20
faster. And so since servicers have been accused of paying
28:24
incentives to their customer service reps for short call
28:27
durations, well, how do you get someone off the phone, you don't
28:30
tell them about all these different things they can do,
28:33
you just give them forbearance. And so it's been a long problem,
28:36
long standing problem, you have a loan that's been 50,000.
28:39
That's now 150,000. And so the IDR waiver and audit program
28:44
that was announced in April requires someone to consolidate
28:48
their loans to direct loans by the end of this year. So this
28:50
deadline is December 31. So it's instead of October 31, is
28:53
December 31. And it allows for someone to get credit for those
28:57
long forbearances that they might have had. And that credit
29:00
then can be applied towards forgiveness.
29:04
The other thing that's coming out is a new income driven plan.
29:07
So we have some folks who they make pretty good income, right?
29:12
They're owners of their firm, or they work somewhere where
29:15
they're, you know, at the top higher level, and they're making
29:17
six figures, but they might help care for their parents or they
29:20
might have some, you know, expenses that are high. One of
29:24
the problems with the current income driven plans is that it's
29:27
a percentage of that income, and it doesn't take into account
29:30
specialize expenses, no matter how legitimate they might be.
29:34
And so the payment is too high. So they end up defaulting Well,
29:38
there's a new income driven plan coming out in July, that's going
29:42
to be 5% of someone's income, discretionary earnings, and then
29:45
they're using a more more broad test for expenses. So I think
29:51
that's going to fix one of those last holes that we have, which
29:54
is folks that have, you know, high expenses can't make an
29:57
income driven plan. They're going to be able to do that now.
30:01
There's some other fixes with respect to just overall things
30:07
like the accrual of interest, the capitalization of interest,
30:10
there's some internal fixes that are going to make it so the
30:13
balances don't get so high. Because remember where I
30:15
mentioned that folks come to us, they generally understand that
30:18
they've signed a contract, and they owe the money. They just
30:21
can't handle all the excessive craziness that's going on. And
30:25
that's where
30:26
Davina Frederick: I mean, it is, it is insane when you hear
30:28
people say, I have already paid off the amount that I borrowed,
30:32
and I still owe $300,000. And that's me. It's just sickening.
30:37
It's sickening. I wanted to go back, you mentioned something
30:40
about forbearance. And I just want to I think a lot of times
30:43
people bury their head in the sand about this, and they don't
30:47
really think about. So you talk to a servicer and they go, I'm
30:51
at a point where I can't pay my loan, you know, whatever
30:55
circumstances happen, I can't pay any more. And they say,
30:58
Okay, well, let's just put you in forbearance, or let's do
31:00
deferment, or let's do. And let's talk a little bit about
31:03
the constant the financial consequence of that. Because
31:07
I've seen that happen over and over again. And people are later
31:10
on years later, they're like going, Oh, my God, what did I
31:13
do? When they go to try to buy a house? When they go to try to do
31:17
something, they start to see the consequences of that. Can you
31:20
talk a little bit about that, and sort of what the
31:22
consequences are of doing those things?
31:25
Unknown: Sure. So the servicers really haven't been given caps
31:29
on someone's ability to use forbearance. And it's just gone
31:34
on for years. And so what happens when someone goes on
31:36
forbearance, they don't have a payment, but the interest still
31:39
accrues. And at the end of the forbearance period, which is
31:41
usually a year that interest, then it tacks on to the original
31:44
principal balance, and it has a compounding effect. So now
31:47
they're paying interest on interest. It's not simple
31:49
interest. It's that compound effect. And so just like Warren
31:53
Buffett, where if you spent if you save, I think $50 a week, at
31:57
age, whatever, by the time you're 65, you have a million
32:00
dollars kind of thing. It works in the exact opposite for
32:02
someone with a student loan. And then with all the scams going
32:06
on, you have folks that accidentally default, they don't
32:08
realize that, oh, this new company has my loans, they're
32:11
the servicer, they ignore them, then they accidentally default
32:14
they add 25% of the balance. So you have that accrual of
32:17
interest, you have an accidental default, and you have that going
32:21
on for years, pretty soon you have an enormous amount of money
32:24
to repay. The other thing about buying a home is that mortgage
32:29
underwriters have traditionally if someone's on forbearance,
32:32
they count their student loan payment, if they were making it
32:35
as 1% of the overall balance. So that means someone who has a
32:39
$300,000 loan, if they went to apply for a mortgage, the
32:42
underwriter is going to assume they have a $3,000 student loan
32:45
payment. Well, that means they're not going to be able to
32:47
afford that house probably. And so that's the harm that
32:52
forbearance has. And if someone defaults, then they go on
32:55
cavers, which is the mortgage underwriting default system that
32:58
they can track that. So forbearance. Well, it sounds
33:01
like an immediate fix, there's no paperwork required, you can
33:05
get no payment very quickly. It's a trap. It really is. It
33:08
should be used only for someone for a short term problem, like a
33:11
car accident where they're unable to work for a period of
33:13
time, it should never be a long term solution. It's not a
33:17
solution of any kind. But this audit program is designed to
33:21
give a one year credit towards folks who have a direct loan.
33:25
And remember, you can consolidate an older loan to be
33:27
a direct loan. And to kind of get credit for those long term
33:31
forbearances. There's certain things that they look for it has
33:33
to be cumulative more than three years or consecutive more than a
33:36
year. But you know, you can use that in combination with public
33:39
service. So we have folks that are contacting us that can get
33:42
an immediate forgiveness without doing anything further other
33:45
than the paperwork to get these things. And some of the things
33:49
are automatic. Some of it requires paperwork, like even
33:51
the $10,000 thing. That seems simple, right? But there's an
33:55
income cap, which means only those that make less than
33:58
125,000 or 250. Married will get it and only those with loans
34:03
that are held by the Department of Ed. So you still have to take
34:05
some action, you have to let the Department of Ed know how much
34:08
your income is. Well, during COVID. No one had to do that.
34:11
Right. So they don't know. So there's going to be this
34:14
application out around the first part of October that people can
34:18
we don't know what the application is going to say yet.
34:20
But I mentioned one of the first things is going to be what's
34:22
your income, and they're looking at the 2020 and 2021 period. And
34:28
you're going to want to drop that basically, to be eligible
34:30
for that. And it's 20,000 of someone has a Pell Grant. And
34:34
Pell Grants are something that's not understood a lot. People
34:37
think well how is the 10,000 or 20,000 applied to my Pell Grant?
34:42
Well, you don't repay a Pell Grant. It's a grant. It's just a
34:46
way for the government to track its lower income folks. And so
34:50
that's why if someone had gotten a Pell Grant, that usually meant
34:53
that their family was lower income, they qualified for that
34:56
grant, and now they'll get a $20,000 instead But there's
35:01
things you have to do, you have to file the application. If you
35:03
had paid during COVID, you can file something to add to ask for
35:06
a refund, even if you'd refinance your loans. And here's
35:09
one of the lesser known things. If you'd refinanced your loan
35:12
during COVID, that's payment by a third party, that is something
35:16
that you can get a refund for up to the 10, or possibly 20,000,
35:20
if you ask for it in a certain way. So some things are
35:24
automatic, and some things you have to take a few steps to get.
35:27
Davina Frederick: Wow. So if you're sitting there with your
35:34
multi six figure alones, and you're just you feel defeated,
35:38
because it all of this stuff is just more confusing than ever.
35:43
Let's talk about some resources for people obviously, the the if
35:47
you the biggest resource is go hire an attorney who specializes
35:51
in student loans. Because that, you know, that just that just
35:55
makes sense. If you're sitting on six figures, well, even not
35:58
in I didn't didn't good enough to be six figures, because I
36:01
know people who've been, you know, had five figure loans, and
36:04
it's taken years and years and years to pay them off. So seeing
36:09
an attorney, but let's talk about some of the things that
36:11
you have available, because I know you have a wonderful, first
36:14
of all, you've taught many CLTs on this, and you have a
36:17
wonderful YouTube channel. So tell us a little bit about that.
36:20
Unknown: Sure. So we have a YouTube channel that I call the
36:23
student loan sidebar. And we created that, because videos
36:28
seem to be where people want to get a lot of information, they
36:30
can do it in between appointments and such. The name
36:33
originated from a publication that we do a column in our local
36:37
bankruptcy, cram down newsletter. And so for that we
36:41
provided in writing the different things that they
36:43
should be aware of for their clients or for their own loans
36:46
each quarter. And that's available on our homepage of our
36:49
website, which is Christie archivists.com. And so you can
36:52
go to the cram down sidebar and read what you like, or the
36:56
videos of if you just Google archivists law, YouTube comes
37:00
right up. And so we try to do videos that are somewhere
37:04
between two and 10 minutes to talk about whatever recent
37:06
announcement, how someone can qualify when their loans are
37:11
eligible. And if there's anything they need to do. And
37:13
the reason why I do that is because if you see that
37:16
something's passed, or about to pass, sometimes the title of the
37:20
article might be more clickbait than anything. And you remember
37:24
getting into an argument with one woman who was a nurse. And
37:27
she was absolutely convinced that this public service waiver
37:31
thing was going to get rid of her loans entirely. But there
37:36
were some reasons why she was partially eligible and not
37:39
completely. And she didn't know that, you know, from the
37:42
article, the newscaster had just covered just the generic kind of
37:46
top line specifics. And so with the YouTube channel, we try to
37:50
get into those specifics just a little bit more, but they're
37:53
still easy to understand. And, and so that's free information
37:57
that folks can go on and see. We also give seminars for the
38:01
Florida Bar and some other things, some podcasts and such
38:04
about different topics that might include the joint spousal
38:08
consolidation act, that's going to be our next video, the House
38:12
has passed it, the Senate has passed it, President Biden is
38:14
expected to sign it probably within the next two weeks, and
38:17
is to allow those who went to school and later got married,
38:21
those folks consolidated their loans. And the problem with that
38:25
is that they can't and consolidate. And they, they
38:28
consolidated into an older loan type. And what happens is
38:32
they're trapped in that program, it's kind of a one way in no way
38:34
out kind of situation. And so they're not eligible for any of
38:37
this new stuff. And so this fix is basically to unwind that, and
38:42
that's been a beef of ours for a number of years. And we've
38:46
obtained the similar results in bankruptcy through an adversary
38:48
proceeding. But now people can get it much, much cheaper and
38:52
much faster with this law change that we expect. So we'll do a
38:55
video on that. Our videos usually come out a few days
38:59
after the announcement or maybe a day or two, just so we have
39:01
enough time to digest it. Yeah, think about while
39:05
Davina Frederick: I'm sure it's I'm sure there are people who
39:07
are gonna go now go there now and just binge we'll include the
39:10
link in the show notes. So if people continue that, maybe what
39:13
if you're in Florida and you're getting through the hurricane
39:15
and you're hunkering down? Maybe we binging on Chris right, maybe
39:18
Unknown: binging videos. And then we have a lot of folks who
39:23
they're okay with the videos, but they want to know exactly
39:25
what you know what to do with their loans. And it's a time
39:28
versus money thing. You know, if if, if our consultation fee
39:32
isn't that much for the amount of money they owe, they might
39:35
want to have us do a one on one consultation just to see if we
39:38
can do what they need to do and what we can do for them. And so
39:42
for that we waive our fee if if they hire us and then number
39:47
two, sometimes we can tell them what they need to do in that
39:50
half hour hour. And then they can do it themselves. Most
39:53
eliminate our clients or attorneys and they're able to do
39:55
that. And then three if we just spend five minutes and we find
39:58
that they're doing everything that they can and do then we
40:01
don't end up charging them. So that's what we call as our
40:03
consultation guarantee, we do charge for every consultation,
40:07
we used to do them for free. We stopped that a number of years
40:09
ago, we really can't afford to do that. But I think it's a
40:13
valuable piece of information. It's not much money. And
40:17
unfortunately, the amount of these loans, it's often the
40:19
price of a house, you know, they're dealing with a large
40:22
student loan. And these fixes are going to go away, you know
40:27
that. That deadline I mentioned of October 31, December 31. Once
40:32
those deadlines pass, it's going to go to the old way, the old
40:36
system, because the reason these fixes are in place, is because
40:41
the current administration has used this heroes act to
40:45
basically say there's a public emergency and we can do this.
40:49
And that might raise a question with some of our attorneys is
40:52
that what is legal, you know, how much of this is legal that
40:54
they're doing? Well, you know, it's questionable, because now
40:58
we have President Biden saying that there's no pandemic, the
41:01
pandemic is over, well, is the state of emergency still here
41:04
then to effectuate some of these changes. So I encourage people
41:09
to get in there and get these changes done. Get that
41:12
forgiveness, because it's impossible to unwind that, but
41:15
there's a very strong possibility of some of these
41:19
things going away earlier than anticipated if the support is
41:23
not behind them. And then you'll have two classes of folks,
41:26
you'll have folks that have already gotten the relief, that
41:28
forgiveness, you'll have other ones that are pending that may
41:30
or may not get it, because there's years of litigation over
41:33
whether or not it was legal for the administration to do this
41:36
via Executive Order versus an act of Congress. So, you know,
41:40
that's a whole nother topic.
41:43
Davina Frederick: Right? So this is really one of those
41:44
situations where, if this has been in the back of your mind,
41:49
now it's time to bring it to the forefront and make an
41:51
appointment with an attorney who handles student loans to really
41:55
see what your options are. And, and for me, I mean, not you, you
41:59
always hear me advising my clients don't do don't DIY
42:03
through the years I have, I have hired so many lawyers who had
42:07
specialized in different areas of practice, yes, I could go
42:10
figure things out, yes, I could research. But when time is of
42:13
the essence, you really want to make sure and in something as
42:16
complicated as this, I do think you it is really would behoove
42:20
people to go talk to somebody that this is what they do all
42:23
day, every day, because they're going to know a lot of these
42:25
nuances. And a lot of these things just proceeds just
42:28
dropped our absolute wealth of information here. And it's you
42:32
might have a listen to this two or three times to really
42:34
understand the full impact of all of it. So I do think that's
42:38
important. Let me ask you this, do you is the student loan since
42:42
then you're dealing with federal loans and things like that? Is
42:45
this something where you help people in other states? Or is
42:47
this? Are you limited to Florida?
42:49
Unknown: For state for private loans, we limit ourselves to
42:52
Florida unless we have co counsel that works with us,
42:56
which we do in those private discharge cases? For federal
42:58
loans, we can do things nationwide, generally. And so
43:01
one of our more successful programs is that disability
43:04
program, where if someone can't work full time doing what they
43:07
used to do, we have an occupational medicine specialist
43:10
that works with us, and we typically can get discharges. So
43:13
that would be Nationwide there. So a little bit of both,
43:18
basically,
43:18
Davina Frederick: yeah, I have a I really have no one person I
43:23
went to law school with who had a, who actually had she had a
43:27
very serious disability that did not allow her to practice law,
43:30
certainly after she graduated. And it took her years to get
43:33
that resolved. But fortunately, she was able to. And I have
43:39
another friend that I graduated from law school with you. By the
43:42
time she was done, she owed about $350,000. And she started
43:46
a nonprofit. She says I started nonprofit, if I work a certain
43:50
amount in this nonprofit, then I'm eligible for I guess that
43:54
public service.
43:56
Unknown: Yeah, tenure. So if you have 10 years of working for a
43:59
qualified nonprofit, then you would be forgiven of the
44:02
remaining balance. And that was also tax free.
44:05
Davina Frederick: Yeah. So there are those, that is a very
44:09
creative solution that a lot of people probably wouldn't think
44:13
about. And so I think that's where there's also a benefit to
44:16
talking with an attorney who kind of specializes in this
44:18
area, because there are, there's a lot of creative solutions to
44:22
get. And I think you have to be you have to pull out all of the
44:28
all the stops in trying to be creative and figuring these
44:31
things out. Because I think that this, I think this system was
44:34
built deliberately to be kind of a quagmire, because the banks
44:38
and lenders, they're making money. They're making a lot of
44:41
money on this because even because so many people are
44:45
attempting to pay and they're paying years and years of
44:48
interest, even ones who eventually may have something in
44:51
forbearance or default on it or whatever.
44:54
Unknown: Well, one of our primary arguments for
44:56
discharging private loans is actually kind of like that. It's
44:59
a pretty A Tory type of situation, we're in 2005. And
45:03
six, the Bankruptcy Code was amended to basically give
45:06
protection to private loans similar to federal student
45:08
loans. And so there's a lot of private lenders out there that
45:11
sent out marketing material and said, you know, do this do that,
45:14
you know, buy a car or do whatever it is you with your
45:16
money, we have this for you. And they wanted to basically have
45:21
their funds be counted as a student loan. And they were
45:24
really nothing more than a consumer loan, they had a high
45:26
rate of interest, they had a co borrower. But since they were
45:29
considered a student loan, they were non dischargeable. And in
45:32
fact, that's where some of the recent case law has come out to
45:35
say that it's not dischargeable. I'm not that sorry, not non
45:38
dischargeable. There's too many negatives, but
45:41
Davina Frederick: but it could be dischargeable. Yeah, it could
45:43
Unknown: be dischargeable. And so there's a lot of, you know,
45:45
help in that area. So, but the transparency of the system is
45:51
horrible. I've done multiple areas of law throughout my 30
45:54
year practice. And I have to say that student loans is the most
45:57
confusing out there. Right now, there's contradictory
46:00
information out there, because we have the old programs, then
46:03
we have the new fixes that are temporary, usually lasting
46:06
within a few months or a few or a year here, then it's gonna go
46:09
back to the old program. So we have folks who believe that they
46:13
shouldn't consolidate now, because none of their earlier
46:16
payments will count. Well, under these fixes, there's a one time
46:20
waiver where it will count. But the old information is still out
46:23
there. And it will be accurate again, come next year. And so
46:27
that's
46:29
Davina Frederick: I don't Can I count on your servicer to give
46:31
you accurate information. So I think one of the things that's
46:33
really complicated this process, a lot of we saw this in the I
46:37
represented lenders in foreclosure in the early in
46:41
around the recession, so 2007, eight, all those years there.
46:46
And so much of the complexity of that you see in here is passing
46:53
is those loans getting sold. So your servicer, hat changes over
46:58
time to and as these change, that also can have an impact on
47:04
what you're seeing and understanding and believing all
47:08
of that as well, because you may not be getting accurate
47:09
information, if something has been sold several times a lot
47:12
can happen in the process of something being sold and how
47:16
things are categorized or whatever. So it's really
47:19
important to, you know, dig deep and understand it and get help
47:22
doing that.
47:24
Unknown: You also have, you also have a bit of a deer in the
47:27
headlights. Now, I once wanted to change my billing program.
47:31
But with all the different options out there, there were
47:33
advantages and disadvantages. And so I just didn't make a
47:36
decision, I had too much information. And so that's how
47:40
to where it's just too much information, folks will look at
47:43
it, they don't have time, they don't want to get back to it.
47:45
And then they don't make a decision, which is a decision in
47:47
and of itself to remain exactly the same. So yeah.
47:52
Davina Frederick: I think that's a wonderful point, I cannot
47:54
stress enough how this decision, if your goal is to be wealthy,
48:02
and live a rich life, this decision, you may think I can
48:08
ignore this right now and just do whatever, and I'm just not
48:10
gonna deal with it. But one day, something is going to happen,
48:14
that's going to force you to have to deal with it, and it's
48:16
probably not gonna be pretty. So now, if this is something you've
48:19
been hiding from, and burying your head in the sand over, now
48:24
is the time and don't. Don't try to do it yourself. If it feels
48:30
overwhelming, go get somebody who, who knows what they're
48:34
talking about who does this for a living who is not overwhelmed
48:37
by it, because it's not their personal thing. And ask them to
48:40
help and pay them to help you and and you'll wind up saving
48:44
just 1000s and 1000s and 1000s in the long run most likely. So
48:49
Unknown: and I want to mention one other thing. Anyone who has
48:52
not paid on a private loan, if you do his settlement on any
48:57
remaining balance. First of all, there's a lot of things you
48:59
should look at to see whether it's dischargeable. But once
49:01
you're done with that, if you do settle it before the end of
49:04
2025, the result would be tax free. So if you get a settlement
49:09
where you're paying 40 cents on the dollar, or something like
49:12
that 60% has been waived. You don't get a tax bill on the rest
49:15
of that if you can get it done before December 31 of 2020
49:19
Thought so it's a few years down the road, but it's only around
49:22
the corner, basically with a settlement. Yeah, so the reason,
49:27
the reason I reached out to offer this information on
49:30
student loans is because minimizing those personal
49:34
expenses is huge towards building your wealth. But
49:37
minimizing firm expenses is important too. And so one of the
49:41
things I've done with my office is we've gone remote, yes, it's
49:44
March of 2020. We went ahead and went remote and we decided we
49:48
like it, and we're gonna keep it up. We still have our office for
49:51
when we need it. And so we're offering our office as
49:54
workspaces for those attorneys who you're working at home to
49:58
you're in Tampa, maybe you And so, but you only need an office
50:02
on a sometimes basis. So we have it is sound tamper workspaces.
50:05
If anyone out there wants to reach out to us, I'd be, I'd
50:09
love to have a chance to talk with them to
50:11
Davina Frederick: wonderful. I think there are a lot of people
50:12
out there who are looking for those kinds of solutions right
50:15
now where they really don't need an office on a regular basis.
50:18
But they like to have that place where they can meet clients if
50:20
they need to do that. And zoom doesn't work for them anymore.
50:24
Or even just yeah, the house and goes to play some work because I
50:26
know a lot of people have little kids at home. And even if they
50:29
have a dedicated workspace, they may want that, that place they
50:32
can do that. So wonderful, wonderful their resource there
50:35
in South Tampa. So we need to end but tell us how people can
50:42
get in touch with you bet your YouTube channel but tell us
50:44
other ways they can get in touch with you if they want to.
50:47
Unknown: So our email is info at Christie markiewicz.com. And our
50:53
phone number is 813-258-2808. And then if you go on our
51:00
website, there's of course the contact me forms, we have a blog
51:03
also that I pretty regularly publish things that have come
51:06
out. And then the YouTube channel is our coverage law.
51:09
YouTube comes right up.
51:11
Davina Frederick: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you so much for
51:14
being here, Christy. I think this has been hugely helpful.
51:17
And a lot of people hopefully will take this to heart and
51:21
really take action on dealing with these student loans. I know
51:25
the temptation for people is to just not think about it. But
51:30
really, truly if you want to build the kind of wealth that
51:34
you say you want, then this is something that does have to be
51:38
handled, because this can take everything away. Really, it can
51:42
have that kind of impact on somebody's life. So as as the
51:45
case when you mentioned your 70 year old client, I mean, you
51:47
know, this is this is no joke these student loans. So and we
51:51
see that the government is going to be you know, a limited
51:54
resource and how they help us get out of this. So do reach out
51:58
to a lawyer if you're in Florida, reach out to Christie
52:01
for sure. And thanks so much for being here. Christy. I so
52:04
appreciate it. I've enjoyed our conversation.
52:06
Unknown: Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate the
52:07
opportunity and your podcasts are wonderful. By the way. I've
52:09
listened to a few others over the years and have really
52:12
learned some things that have helped me in my practice. So
52:14
thank you, thank
52:15
Davina Frederick: you. I appreciate that.