Latest / Concession Stand / 015: The Olivia Williamson Stand
Transcript
- Nick: Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to the concession stand. I'm Nick, and this week is a very special episode because across the screen is not only my co-host Jules, but is also Olivia Williamson, who will be talking to us today about her presentation called Cyborg's Death Rays in Mad Men, Conceptualizing Fear and Trauma in 1930s America. Olivia and Jules, say what's up to the people. Julz: How you guys doing? Liv: Hello! Nick: we are very happy to have you here today. we're coming off the back end of, you know, Halloween, spooky season, you know, the fall a lot of a lot of fall and in in and horror type vibes. So we're very excited to be able to talk with Olivia today about you know, movies like the Invisible Man. Maybe, a little backrooms, maybe a little maybe you never know where the conversation might go. We might, we Julz: Exactly. Nick: might really we we could talk about anything, under that kind of umbrella. So let's let's get right into it. Let's get right into it. so Olivia, like what first made you connect with like the movie The Invisible Man, or like with this subject of wartime injury and trauma? Liv: So I've always been interested in the question why are horror movies scary? and when you look at it from an academic perspective, I think horror movies and history are very intertwined. A lot of what we fear comes from what happened to us in the past. there's a lot of literature about how you know, post-9-11 Themes in horror movies that became really popular really quickly were things like hostage situations and gore and and torture, you know, things that were really on the forefront of our minds after witnessing such such an atrocity. and that's kind of how the Great War was for America and like the the world as as a whole. Like it was so radically traumatic because we were seeing injuries and disabilities that no one had ever really seen before in terms of like like we never had the kind of medical care that could rehabilitate Nick: Right. Liv: someone losing their jaw or losing you know their eye socket or their nose and suddenly we had things like ambulances and really well-trained military surgeons That could get people off the battlefield and maybe even get them home. But then once they're home, what happens to them? Like what do you do once your world has been completely flipped upside down? and now you're you're kind of moving like a or tr being treated like a monster in a place that used to be your home because of circumstances that were largely out of your control. So I think the the veterans experience is something of a horror in and of itself. And I was just really interested to see how that reflected in film, especially knowing how many of those veterans ended up working in Hollywood and on films like The Invisible Man. So that was a huge spiel. Sorry if that was too much information, but I'm a nerd about this stuff, so Nick: No, no, not at all. Yeah, Julz: No. No, you're Nick: no. Julz: with that's what we want. We want you to nerd out to our audience. Our audience are also nerds. They wanna you know, they wanna feel exactly how you know you you know, you took it in and how you perceived it. You know, we we want your rendition, we want your opinion. And the coldest and hardest and the most truths come in those forms in my opinion. So I think that you're doing just fine. So what Liv: Thank you. Julz: from what what would you like the viewers to really focus on or, gain from your presentation? 'Cause as you can see, we have, your slides and I was just going through the invisible man one since that's what we were talking about. But what is the central idea you want people to take away from this from this presentation? Liv: I I want I wish people had more and this doesn't go for every horror movie villain, but I wish with some there was more of a sense of I think empathy coming from audiences when the the story is about a man turned monster just trying to find a place in the world, like the invisible man, like Frankenstein. Almost a little bit like Nosferatu, the original, he he comes over on a boat and he's just trying to find a home. and Nick: Yeah. Liv: you know, of course, you know, these men do terrible things. The scientist and the invisible man, he terrorized people, he did some awful things, but you know, he was he was turned completely mad by the substance that he made. So I d there's I think there's a lot more nuance than just casting someone as a villain. and Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think I hope that answers your question. Julz: No, that does. That does. Nick: Yeah, nope. Yeah. it I wa is there like something that sticks out to you in the movie, like a shot or like a specific scene that kind of emb like that in your eyes im kind of embodies like the whole the whole idea that you were talking about of like, you know, the people from the war coming back and like and and and kinda having to live or continue living in a c almost horror of a reality. is there something in this like a specific thing in this film that kind of like sticks out to you as like representing that? Liv: Okay, yes, I love this question. so b before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about the scene where the the mad scientist is just an evil pair of pants chasing an old woman down a dark road. Nick: Yeah, yeah. Liv: and what I think is like so interesting is with the the The book by H. G. Wells, The Invisible Man, is incredibly serious and you don't get a lot of the the silliness and the campiness that you get in the film. And knowing the the kind of like writers and producers, actors and directors who were coming back from witnessing such horrors and then started to make art, I think it's interesting that they put in this element of silliness. I think that's a maybe a coping mechanism, but also shows their humanity and how they were really just trying to, you know, parse through these this this transformation and having this new kind of like a new body and being being sort of shunned and not really understanding how to get back on your feet. But there's like some s there's kind of a an element of silliness or lightness that comes with that and experimenting and exploring and sometimes frightening an old woman. Nick: Mm-hmm. True, true. And like that's that's like we were talking Julz: Yeah, in this case a pair of pants. Nick: about it or or go go ahead, Jules. What'd you say? Not literally, Julz: I said in this case being a pair of pants. Liv: Okay. Nick: literally. Like, we were talking about it also before the show. One of the things I love about this movie is is exactly that, just how kind of unserious it seems at certain times. and which is just this this is kind of this might be just a l a little bit of a tangent here, but like It just makes me think about how many like modern horror movies are kinda also both scary and funny. Liv: Mm-hmm. Nick: and I feel like it's kinda because you go like both comedies and horror have to have that kind of impact of like, you know, whether it's a jump scare or like something like, you know, a like something with comedic timing that just kind of hits hits you right at the right moment to make you like either scared or or you know, or laugh. And so Liv: Uh-huh. Nick: is there like anything any Than any movies of recent that give you that kind of same vibe you get from the invisible man in that way? Liv: my gosh, yes. I I went to see Resident Evil on my birthday and talk about body horror, like holy shit This this poor guy Nick: That was crazy. Julz: yeah. yeah. Liv: goes through the ringer but his attitude the whole time is one he he doesn't want to be violent. you know, he feels remorse when he shoots the little girl who who got bitten Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: and he's just he's at work, like he's clocked in. He's just trying to get a paycheck. And I think the that sort of Julz: I'm just doing my job. Liv: Exactly. That that that context just made the whole thing a little bit silly, but also really bittersweet when, you know, he left those voicemails and towards the end when he's just trying to get the cure, like that balance of really scary but also really silly, I think it came through so perfectly in that movie. Nick: Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a great example. Especially Julz: That is. Nick: with Austin Abrams, he's hilarious, so Liv: he's so Julz: yeah. Liv: funny, yes. Julz: So that can when you were touching on some of the guys coming back from war and the artists and stuff like that. Now, just before we move on to that subject of Steven Sp Spurrier, when I wanted to say that this still from the Invisible Man reminded me of the obsession shot where they kinda gave her the uncanny value makeup where she did it with look quite human and had her like Liv: man. Nick: Mm. Julz: over there in the dark, this reminds me of that. so that's where I was like, I wonder if he, if w n remind me of the director's name again, Nick. Nick: Curry Barker? Julz: Yes, Curry Barker. And yeah, like I thought that maybe he if he watched it maybe he got some inspiration from, you know, this scene in that movie because I felt like this was pretty close to as at as one could get for, you know, an older movie you know, having a similar shot. I haven't really seen another one like it. So unless like, you know, you get into some early nineties or two thousands, I think there might be some more shots like that. But I think, you know, as recent horror movies goes, I think this was the that's the one, that's the shot that we seen it see it in. But, you know, to bring in Steven Spurger's blood and iron illustrations, which, you know, just so I can pull it up for everybody, is this for our visual and, you know, guys tuning in to the, you know, the visual part. Your my question is, you bring in Steven Spurs, blood and iron illustrations and warrant time medical teaching model. What does each source help you explain? Liv: Okay, so the Steven Sprayer illustrations are illustrations of a one-act play that was written, I think, just before America entered World War One. Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: it was a very strong anti-war message. There are three characters, the Emperor, the Scientist, and the Cyborg. And this is Julz: Mm. Liv: actually one of the first versions of a cyborg that you see in Western literature. he's a soldier that is made from mechanical parts but also the parts of other soldiers. And the commentary, the purpose of the play was to show how men were treated as disposable and and subjected to extreme violence. and the the cyborg is really like he's a very sympathetic character because he doesn't want to be what he is. he's being sort of presented to the Emperor as a gift as like the ultimate war machine Julz: Mm. Liv: that will, you know, the Great War to end all wars. This machine will end everything. but he really doesn't want to be what he is, and he's asking the Emperor to stand down. And when the Emperor doesn't, the cyborg actually kills the Emperor to end it all. So Julz: wow. Liv: it's kind of a it's a really, really impactful play about like direct action, like somehow how pacifism can only come through violence. I don't know. I'm not a philosopher, but I just I thought it was really interesting that he didn't want to be violent, but he knew that violence needed to happen to end Julz: Right. Liv: big violence. Like it's and I I feel for him. He again, like I keep saying it, but he d he doesn't want to be what he is, and that's kind of his repeated line is he's he's sad to be what he is and he wishes that he that he doesn't want anyone to go through what he's been through. Julz: And and suffer his same fate if they're gonna repeat this technology. Liv: Right, exactly. Yeah, that's that is part of the the language in the play. They're implying that, thousands of these types of cyborgs will be made and Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: he doesn't want that to happen. Julz: So that play would be by Kate McDonald, the first cyborg in the first world war. Am I correct in that? I would say. Liv: It so that's a that's an article about it, I'm pretty sure. The Julz: Okay. Liv: the authors of the play, I think there were three young men who worked on it, and actually one of those young men went to work in Hollywood. Julz: Right. Liv: I'm blanking on their names right now, but if you give me a moment, I can probably look it up. Julz: We have time. Nick: That's crazy though. Like I I'm not obviously I our how would how would anybody know like all the context just by looking at the image, but wow, that is Julz: And this is from a play from nineteen seventeen. So this is, Deep Pool. Nick: Wow. Yeah. Liv: Okay. Their names were Pearlie Poor Sheehan and Robert H. Davis. Very nineteen twenties American names. Pearlie. Yes. Julz: Yeah, Pearly Poor Poor Sheehan. That's like the yeah, so that is I would agree. Pearly P R P E R L E Y. Then poor P O O R E Sheehan S H E E H A N, eighteen seventy five to nineteen forty three. And they were a Californian journalist and newspaper editor who began publishing short stories in pulp and adventure magazines from nineteen eleven. that's nice. That's they also they their biggest his biggest success would be the screenplay for the hunchback of Notre Dame for the nine Liv: Yeah, okay, yes, another story about Nick: Ooh. Liv: a monstrous man just trying to find Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: his place in the world. I think I think this Nick: Thanks. Liv: guy, like, he he had some themes that he was interested in and I think he made some Nick: Yeah, yeah. Liv: great stuff. Julz: I wonder if we can find any pictures Nick: Ooh. Julz: of this guy. If if there was like a you know not saying he he himself maybe looked like this, but like, you know, if there was a reason for all that or if there was if something happened to him in his childhood that made him do that. But I mean if he came up with it just 'cause that's also amazing. So, you know, I think that's pretty cool though. That's that was that was a good that was a good one right there. That's that was a good pool. But so yeah, but Nick: So Liv: The so the do you want me to talk about the the wax model real quick? Okay. Nick: Yes, please. Julz: yeah, I was gonna say Liv: So this one, this is a model that was actually used for teaching. I mentioned earlier how we'd we had never had We had really serious medical advance advancements and then also ambulances. Like we we didn't have ambulances up until this point, and we didn't have like combat ambulances. So people were being injured and then moved off of the battlefield at record speed to medical care that was the most advanced it had ever been. and specifically people were trained because the The weapons were so new and they were the type of weapons that like no one had seen before, like like machine guns and mustard gas. You could kill so many people so easily with very little effort. And a lot of those weapons targeted, unfortunately, like areas like the face and the neck, which were left exposed by most uniforms up until, you know, we were able to create uniforms that were a little bit more protective, but we still could not we still did not have the kind of protection that's needed to stand up to those kinds of bullets and th that kind of gas. So a lot of facial wounds and neck wounds, well a lot of a lot of veterans endured facial wounds and neck wounds and then those kinds of reconstructions. but they were just sort of left to deal with it afterwards, just go home and yeah. Julz: So they would have to put usually have to, it would look like wearing something like this. W is that what you would say? Liv: Yes. So this this mask maker, her name was Anna Coleman Ladd. She was an American sculptor who moved to Paris specifically to help disabled men reconstruct their faces. so she would take photos of them and then carve masks out of copper and use like really thick enamel paint to recreate their skin color. and she would even have openings like you can see here where they could like still smoke like cigarettes. or larger openings where they could eat and drink water still while wearing the mask. but I think she was she's one of the only people that I found that really put in effort to helping these people rehabilitate themselves after going through something so life changing. Julz: is insane. Now Nick: Wow. That yeah, that's crazy. Julz: in slide twelve, let me go to slide twelve real quick. I had a question about slide twelve. So in slide twelve, you place a still from the invisible man beside the portrait of the patient identified as Moz. What do you what did you want us to notice here on this one? Liv: I wanted folks to notice how similar they look. the glasses that they wear, the shape of their nose, the way that their skin looks almost stiff like cloth. I just the visual comparisons to me were so so strong that I I thought there's no way that like that these these movies could not be inspired by the the faces that came back from the war. Julz: Right. I I was gonna say, just to I wanted to hear you say it and put it in your words for the audience, but th I like totally agree with you. it's s like uncandy from the glasses down to, you know, their nose even almost. Like where it's kind of like they were whoever did the makeup or, you know, the wardrobe for you know, the actor for the invisible man, like you said, they took a lot you know, a lot of inspiration from the faces that came back from the war. Liv: Mm-hmm. Julz: So I think that's that was, you know, pretty cool the way that, you know, put that Nick: Mm-hmm. Julz: there. 'Cause that's you know, that's totally I totally agree there. Liv: Thank you. Nick: With that being said, how do you think that the masks and coverings and and bandages function differently in the film versus in like the actual historical material? Liv: so I think the the film kind of plays into some like jokey aspects of it, like the scenes where he's unwinding and unwinding and winding and like tripping over all of the bandages and you know especially when he's still trying to cover up that he's made himself invisible and so the you know there's like kind of a the physical comedic aspect to it. whereas Nick: Yeah. Liv: I think in real life these sort of bandages and masks were treated as a much more serious thing. I I think a lot of these men were ostracized for the way that they looked. they found it really hard to get jobs to fit in with their peers again. and I think an interesting thing to acknowledge is around the same time the Spanish influenza was taking Julz: Yeah. Liv: people out. It was a huge epidemic that coincided with the end of World War One. And so people were encouraged to wear masks to keep themselves safe from what was essentially a plague. Julz: Did right. Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: but I th I think it's it's it's interesting that masks were just overall like kind of such a dark symbol, a symbol of sickness, a symbol of you know a a terrible, terrible wound. and yet in the film, specifically in the Invisible Man, it's treated as a gag. Julz: Right. Nick: Mm-hmm. Julz: What do the skin deep cover and the faces of war stills do to add to the argument that you're trying to make in this? Liv: Those were other very popular movies at the time that Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: really play into these themes of Well, g a double life. So the the main character in this film, he's a veteran, he comes back from the war and then falls into a life of crime, and he starts wearing masks to conceal himself while he's conducting this kind of crime. so I it just it just kind of called to me that like artists at the time were really thinking about themes of masks and how they can mean, you know, such negative things, deception, sickness. wounds and crime. Yeah. It it was a tie in like that, yeah. Julz: Okay. I I and it 'cause it's we're seeing a lot of these masks and people wearing certain masks, whether it's a double life, a literal mask, you know, because you know, an sustained injury. So I think that, you know, going through this, you know, through this episode, I think we're gonna, you know, start to see if we can reveal these masks, reveal some of these reasons for why these people felt this way. You know, because as society ostracized them, you know. And, you know, they also probably wanted to get get back to looking how they, you know, might have wanted to, which is where can you remind me of the woman's name, Olivia, the one who created the some of the masks? Liv: Anna Coleman Ladd. Julz: Anna Coleman lad. Ladd, L A D D, is that how you Liv: Yes. Julz: Okay. So Anna Coleman lad. And, you know, so I think that these are things, because it's not like we don't these things still don't take place now. You know, I think we now in society accept a lot of, you know, the in the war injuries that we may that are, you know, maybe still obvious for, you know, some service members who come home after fighting for our our freedom. You know, I I know that all of us actually have have, you know, military ties in our family. And so, I think that's also somewhere where it's a it's something that we three probably, you know, may pay attention to more or less, you know, not ev not saying that's just not anybody, but I always feel like, you know, I have a certain, you know, level of respect for anyone I see injured who once was a you know, fought in the and fought for my rights or my freedom somewhere else across the globe, you know, no matter what that looks like. So I think that Nick, would you What do you think about how does this film move us between, you know, the sympathy for Griffin and the fear of him? You know, I think in the that's the guy for I Invisible Man, am I right? Or Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: Yes. Griffin, which is my brother's name, which is very funny to me. Nick: Nice, nice. Julz: You know, and and I I mean Olivia we we spoke before this, but I don't think I ever knew that that was his name until now, though that's kinda funny. Liv: Yeah. Julz: But Nick: yeah, but I so yeah, we were gonna ask like some questions j about like pretty much just like some some of the film stuff, like aside from the you know the historical ties and and and representation in it. Liv: Mm-hmm. Nick: so so like where do you think Griffin's actions, other characters reactions and the way the camera presents Griffin how do you think that pulls it all those different things pull us in different directions throughout the movie? as he's kind of just doing his thing, like I don't I Liv: I think Nick: maybe maybe I didn't I didn't phrase that th the best way, but I don't know. I feel like there's j throughout the movie there's a lot of different ways that that that you're ki the audience is kinda left to kinda speculate what are what is really going on with this dude? 'cause you're you I I don't know speaking to what we were talking about earlier, he's kinda he's a bit of a goofball in a way. And Julz: Mm-hmm. Nick: and and once you kinda get keen to that, it's it really can go you know, you you're kinda left wondering, okay, where is this gonna go? So Liv: Right. I think he starts out as such a th a relatable character. he's he's passionate about his work and he wants to do good for the world. y beautiful, so relatable. but then Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: as the serum makes him mad, I think on one hand like You you get these scenes of him, he's going crazy because of of this new power that he has, and you kind of feel this empathy, like, my gosh, this is out of your control now, and you've made this mistake and there's no going back, and you know, that's a terrible position to be in. But also that madness makes him act out in ways that endanger people and destroy their homes and f you know, frighten Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: people and children and cause all of this chaos. And so, you know, you're kind of torn between, well, this was a good intentioned man who just made a mistake, and no, like something needs to be done about the the the fear and the violence that he's spreading throughout this innocent community. Nick: Yeah. Liv: but then you know he's crazy enough to think, well, there are no innocents, and it's I think that goes back to like the position that war puts you in, where it it makes good people make bad choices and Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: Yeah, I don't know. That's my line of thinking about it. Nick: True, true. No, that's definitely there's definitely there's definitely truth to that. 'Cause honestly, like truthfully, before like what you know, I'd seen the movie a a a few years ago and I really just kinda consumed it, you know. I I was like I did I didn't even like consider this whole kind of you know, not even corner, but this whole side of like all the you know, what what could be inspiring, not only just his behavior, but how he's how he's being seen by everybody else and like what what where his motivations are really coming from and aside from him going mad because of the serum and stuff. So like you kind of making this presentation and you know being like spelling it out for us in this way is like really eye opening for me just because like I never even thought about like all that stuff in relation to this. So yeah, it's just really cool. Julz: Mm-hmm. Like that's like which gives me a a good question to ask you. Like how when you were, you know, putting this together and stuff, how you know, did you distinguish the connections between historical actual historical events, evidence, you know, from the connection that is your interpretation as a viewer. So like for example, as what what we have right here, you know, we have I think this is I have it here in my notes. Well this I don't know who this the man per se is. French he's but he's someone, who's fitted by Miss Anna Coleman lad of of the you know for the circuit nineteen nineteen for the American Red Cross. And we can only assume by the you know, pictures that he was probably gonna get a mask. And, you know, when were looking and finding a lot of these things, 'cause you know, the patient Moss even, you know, he was a British soldier. Private Edward Moss, who was treated by Harold Gilley's team between 1917 and 1920. And his treatment involved reconstruction procedures and facial prohesis. So a mask. And Liv: Yes. Julz: that being said, how when you were doing this, like when you were finding all of these things, was it hard to, you know, go and like where did you I guess where did you start when you, you know, got the idea? Because I we can see the connection. with the invisible man and, with some with a lot of some of even the other things, but what made you, you know, choose this specific war? Did you was it because of the time period that this was also, you know, filmed or written in? Liv: think the the first world war is interesting and devastating from a historical perspective because nothing like it had ever happened. there are I think my primary source throughout this project were letters and diaries from the s soldiers who went through this. And specifically letters from Mrs. Anna Coleman Ladd and like her her thoughts on the clients that she worked with. and y yeah, so I I think those those descriptions, the the f the primary first hand accounts talk about the events of the Great War like like something apocalyptic. Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: encountering a field of there's there's this one story where this man he comes up upon a field of soldiers that he had been following directly behind like a a group of like hundreds and they're all laying down and he cannot figure it out what happened and this was the first instance of a machine gun being used. Like he had never seen that many people die at once ever. And then things like mustard gas. So the first time Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: that was used, survivors coming across it, they didn't understand why all of these deceased soldiers had like claw marks around their their throats and their mouths because they could not breathe. They were just trying to breathe, like it completely devastating, heartbreaking accounts. Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: and I just think about how like difficult. witnessing something like that is to come back from, especially if you have to physically put yourself back together in order to keep keep going. so it it did become kind of a tightrope walk balancing these these really, really devastating texts that just you know really just broke my heart with these these movies that are kind of campy and silly. Julz: Right. Liv: and s so I just I kind of wanted to rock walk that that typerope with really sensitivity for what had happened and but also like a I don't know, an appreciation for the fact that like life can begin again even after that kind of devastation. Like these men did come back and they made lives and they they experienced happiness again, like wow, yeah, that's one of my favorite stills from The Invisible Man. I loved the the way that they the practical effects using the vacant spaces within the bandages to show what should be there, what is no longer there. Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: I think sometimes the actor was hiding below the suit and they had kind of like a wire wire sculpture kind of on the top to be the head. Julz: Yeah. Liv: and then other practical effects were done with people just off screen holding things up, lots of fish fishing line. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, Julz: Probably in the chest cavity like this, some like he's he has to be in the chest cavity like that. Liv: he's tucked in there. it should be cozy. Nick: Ha ha ha. Julz: would have to be for it to be practical 'cause it's like, you know, th th they they didn't have CGI. It was it Nick: Yep, yep. Julz: it was like, you know, it's practical effect. If you can make it look cool and do it it's great. Liv: Exactly. Nick: Yeah. Julz: You know, but and Nick, so like or no Nick I you could take this the last question. Nick: Okay. well, okay. Be before I get to that last question, I actually I actually just kinda some this the what your a last answer, Olivia, reminded me of something else that I wanted to ask you. And have you seen the more recent Invisible Man adaptation that came it came out in like twenty nineteen or twenty twenty, something like that? Julz: Yeah, with Liv: Yes, Julz: the lady from Yes, that with her. With her. But we know her from Handmaid's Tale. We that's that's the one. Liv: the one with the the handmaid's tail, right? what's her name? I can't remember her name, but yes, I saw it Yeah. Nick: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, what's her name? shoot. wait. I'm about to see. Liv: my gosh. Wasn't she also in Mad Julz: All I think is June when I see Liv: Men? Julz: her sometimes and it's hard for me not to see her. Nick: Elizabeth Moss. Elizabeth Moss. Liv: Yes, her, yes. Julz: It's funny that Moss is the last name. Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I feel like obviously they're from they're, derived from the same story, but in, you know, the the one that we're that we've been talking about is you know a very heavily as you know as we've gotten into this whole conversation, related to the the fallout of war and people having to recover from that from experiencing war and like how all the violence and stuff. Whereas the more recent one, I feel like I don't know if it necessarily replaces that, but it c like instead like it has more of a subject matter around like kind of like harassment and and Liv: Mm-hmm. Nick: and I I or I I don't I haven't seen it in a minute, but I don't know how how else to put it aside from just her harassment and unwanted abuse, but or the yeah, domestic violence and domestic abuse as well. But what so like do you think there's anything within those that kind of carries over aside from you know the obvious invisible man of it all? Or do you think they just, you know, said let's let's drop this kind of these kind of war themes for these kind of like, you know, abuse themes instead. Liv: I do I think they they kind of just they narrowed the scale. So it went from mass violence to interpersonal violence, but I I Julz: Yeah, I agree. Nick: Mm. Liv: don't think they lost the the those themes of like madness and like the the f the fear of like something moving in a room with nobody being there. Nick: Mm-hmm. Liv: like I thought I did miss the the kookiness of the practical effects versus the CGI, but I did think the scene where she threw paint on him was kinda cool. Julz: Yeah. Nick: Yeah. Liv: and it it did lose some of the silliness. I think it was a lot more serious, but I I Nick: Yeah, yeah. Liv: I thought it was an interesting take, yeah. Nick: Yeah. Which I feel like it kinda like you said, with you know, kinda making it more personal of a story. I feel like, you know, it we it w when that happens it kinda has to like you kinda expect it to lose some silliness just because it's Julz: Mm-hmm. Nick: more like, you know, it's Liv: Right. Nick: one person dealing with dealing with this whole thing and as opposed to like him going around and literally terrorizing all these different people and stuff. but yeah, no, that's a that's a really good that's a that's that's a really good point. And I I I I think I could appreciate that in the in the modern adaptation, more now, af especially after getting diving so deep into the old one. So Liv: Mm. Nick: yeah, that's really cool. Julz: So I had a few a few questions too. So you kinda open and close with stills of you know, from the fifty-three, thirty-four minute, fifty-three, forty minute forty second mark. Liv: Mm-hmm. Julz: is there a reason for opening and closing with these images? 'Cause I c I under cause you know, you get both really in the first one. Sorry, I'm scrolling back to the front. Liv: So I did this was actually because this is based off of a paper, Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: this presentation was based off of paper. This was a writing choice. I wanted to open with a description of what I thought was the silliest scene, the pants chasing scene. so to sort of draw the reader in on kind of like a lighter note. and then after giving all of the context that I felt backed up this scene, kind of looking at it through a different lens, knowing everything that kind of came behind this scene, like Anna Coleman lad and the d the the disabilities and the injuries that were coming Julz: Mm-hmm. Liv: home from the the people with disabilities and injuries that were returning from war and you know the idea of the cyborg and the idea of how these men were treated as so disposable and I wanted the reader to think about it still with that that lightness, but also understand it with a more like nuanced perspective because of all of that contents. Does that make sense? Julz: Okay. Yes. Nick: Yeah. Julz: I think w would you say that that would you know the that helps audiences understand trauma while also reinforcing fears about people who look different? Liv: Yeah, yeah. I think I think overall I I wouldn't I wouldn't ever want us to be us as a culture to be desensitized to this kind of violence. Like when you see someone walking around with this kind of disability, I don't ever want us to just gloss over it. But also I think like these people still face so much discrimination because of how they are different now. So it I don't know, I think I think we can be so much more accepting without desensitizing ourselves to as to to this kind of violence, especially as our our weaponry gets so much more apocalyptic. Like it yeah. Yeah. Nick: Mm-hmm. Julz: just it leaves less and less of a person the you know, the more the closer you are to the you know, the the the port point of impact, if you will. You know, I totally agree with that, you know, in that regard. So that's, you know after hearing your argument though, what is the one scene you'd want everyone to rewatch and what should they pay attention to if people were to go and wanna watch the invisible man? Liv: Mm. I think probably the last fifteen minutes, that the culmination of the townspeople finally tracking him down and him deciding what to do and how to make his final stand and then you know, succumbing to this madness, but then there's still like a little piece of him left behind and is he dead, is he alive, we'll never know. Like I I don't know. I think it was a really interesting way to leave the audience. Julz: Okay. Nick: Mm. Julz: Okay. Nick, you seen how'd you feel about that? Nick: For sure. I mean, shoot. I I don't I I guess I can't say I have any like strong feelings about like the ending because like I just I just I just really liked it as a whole. Like I just thought it's it's just really Julz: Okay. Okay. Okay. Nick: entertaining to watch. and you know, again getting you know added another layer of depth to everything just makes it even better. but yeah, at like I it's one of those movies where the whole time I was with obviously it's made it was made in what the forties, right? Or the the thirties? Thirty-eight, yeah, th yeah, yeah. Something like that. And so it's like Liv: Th mm maybe thirty eight, thirty thirty three. Julz: Thirty three. Nick: 33, 33. Okay. So obviously when I'm when I'm watching a movie pre-1950s, I don't have any type of expectations, special effects wise, you know what I'm saying? So Julz: No, of course. You shouldn't. Liv: Right. Nick: I'm not exactly, but with that being said I barely even thought about it the whole time I was watching. I was just like I was just like this is just I'm just enthralled in like everything that's happening Julz: Yeah. Nick: right now to where I'm not even paying attention to that. So it you know, I I think you know, I think the the the ending was you know, kind of serves to the rest of it in that same sense. Like it's just it's just a really entertaining watch. So yeah. Liv: Think another good scene to rewatch is any time he destroys a room and they're using the fishing line to create the the effect of him throwing things and breaking things, like the the hotel room that gets destroyed, the dining room that gets destroyed. Those are just fun scenes to watch. Nick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Julz: They're all very good. But we're coming close to the end of our session here in our podcast. Olivia, thanks for joining us and giving us another way to look at this film. Everyone, everybody listening, tell us what movie you see differently once you know the history behind it. And we'll include the resources Olivia recommends in our episode notes. Like, subscribe, and we'll see you next time at the concession stand. Nick: Thank you. Thank you, Olivia, for joining us today. Julz: Thank you. Liv: Thank you for having me.