Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / What Your Child Is Being Taught About Gender at School [with Clare Rowe]

Transcript

What Your Child Is Being Taught About Gender at School [with Clare Rowe] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. We're starting this
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: week with a big one. A couple of weeks ago,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: we were talking about gender ideology being taught in schools
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and explicit content that our children are being taught in
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: their health and PE classes, often not by school teachers,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: but by external parties that are being brought in, in
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: both state schools and independent schools. And honestly, as a parent,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I just find a lot of the material that kids
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: are being taught developmentally inappropriate. They're being taught stuff way
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: too young about topics that are just not really for kids.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Your child's school almost certainly has a policy on gender identity.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: They'll also have a policy on what they're teaching and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: how they're teaching it. I would all but bet that
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: you've probably never read it. And if you asked to,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I suspect that there's a good chance you'd be told
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: that it's handled at the school's discretion. Claire Rowe is
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a child and adolescent psychologist who's spent years in clinic
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: rooms with kids and their families, their parents, and she
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: says that what's happening in classrooms is has drifted a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: long way from what the developmental evidence supports. Claire is
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: with me today. Stay with us. That conversation is next. G'day,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: this is the Happy Families podcast where you get real
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. My name is Dr. Justin Coulson.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Claire Rowe, highly
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: regarded psychologist, director of Rowe and Associates, joining me on
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: the podcast today. I've actually got to give you a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: bit more about her bio because she does so much
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: great work. Claire's a Sydney-based child and adolescent psychologist, the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Director of Rowe and Associates Child and Family Psychology Practice
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: in Sydney South. Claire has a Master's in Ed Dev Psychology,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: that's Educational and Developmental Psychology, has worked with families for
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: years with a special emphasis on assessment and diagnosis. She's
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a columnist whose writing appears in the AFR, the Daily Telly,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: the Herald Sun. She has a sub-stack called The Rowe Report,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: hosts the podcast On the Couch with Claire and somehow
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: still has time to talk with me today. Claire, great
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: to be with you.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Great to be with you, Justin. Thanks for having me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about this meaty topic that you've been getting
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: a bit of flack for because you wrote an article
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: a little while back about this in the News Corp Press,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: gender ideology and developmental milestones. Where do you think is
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the best place to start? I have a thousand questions
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and I'd rather just let you start and then we'll
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: pick it off from there. Yeah, thanks.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Well, you're right. It is a meaty topic. And I
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: think the first thing I would say is that this
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: conversation gets polarized really quickly, depending on where you're coming
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: with your own experiences individually and in your family. But
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I think we just need to bring it back to
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: two things. One, in my kind of research and working
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: with families and research into the curriculum and how schools operate,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: So parents are really quite in the dark, I think,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: about what's going on in school. So that's the first thing.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: And I say that as a mother of two primary
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: school kids myself, so it's been fairly eye-opening for me.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is we just need to bring
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: it back to the basic question, as you alluded to
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: in your intro there, of child development and what is
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: appropriate education. in terms of child development and what we
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: teach children. And my concern, of course, is not about
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: teaching children to be kind and to be inclusive and
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: to be tolerant. I mean, that's fantastic. We should teach
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: children that families look different. People look different. People live differently.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: And we need to treat everyone with dignity and respect.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: That's not controversial, I don't think, with anyone. My concern
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: is that We have moved beyond just teaching kindness and
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: inclusion and we start introducing to very, very young children
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: concepts around sex and gender identity. And when I say young,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I'm talking kind of four, five-year-olds. Certainly it is in
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: the curriculum by kindergarten that we're teaching children about these,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: you know, tough, meaty concepts that a lot of adults
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: don't struggle to get their head around and don't really
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: have a firm position on sometimes.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Claire, a lot of parents will hear you say gender
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: identity and shrug their shoulders and say, what do you
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  Speaker 1: even mean? So when you say gender identity or when
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: you talk about gender ideology, what are you specifically describing?
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, so... Specifically, as you said before, the state education
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: departments often bring in these third-party providers and they do
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: training in schools. And a lot of your listeners may
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: have heard about a program called Respectful Relationships. And for
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: the vast majority of those programs, I have no issue
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: with them. I have no issue with some of the
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: anti-bullying concepts in there and the teaching of tolerance. I
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: think it's great.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the way it's brought in, right? It's brought
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  Speaker 1: in as a, we're going to teach kids to be
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: nice to each other, to not bully each other, but
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: they also bring in some pretty heavy gender-related topics.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: There are absolutely specific teachings that tell teachers that that
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: next in your class of six and seven-year-olds, you ought
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: to tell them that some people are born as a
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: girl and some people are born as a boy, but
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: some people on their inside know that they're not a
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: boy and they're not a girl and they're in the
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: wrong body and they may be something different and they
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: may be a combination or they may be something entirely
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: different altogether. I mean, six-year-olds listening to this who are
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: still mixing up their pronouns naturally anyway, we have to
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: correct them on, sitting there saying, right, so I'm a boy,
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  Speaker 2: but if I don't feel like that, I might not
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: be a boy. My concern also is that that's not
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: a one-off lesson. That's repeated through each school term, through
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: each school year. And for a lot of kids, that
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: goes over their head. I get that. I've got two kids.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: There'd be one kid of mine who just was like, what?
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  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about recess. I'm thinking about kicking the footy.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: There'd be another child I had at home who would
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: deeply listen to that and take that on. as gospel
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: and okay. And it may not affect them in that
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: school year, but when they've heard it repetitively through kindergarten,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: year one, year two, year three, when they do stumble
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: across some mixed feelings in grade four and grade five, okay, well,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: this might be a reason. And that's not to dismiss
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: kids who genuinely have some gender distress, but I think
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: by the education to all, we are at a huge
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: risk of capturing kids that otherwise may not fit clinical
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: diagnostic terms of being gender diverse or having gender distress.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: And of course, what happens is they go home and
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: they look it up on YouTube and the algorithm pushes
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: them into more and more content, more and more of
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: the lexicon, more and more of the things to think
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: and the things to say and so on. In your
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: News Corp article back in July, you cited high school students.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: in Tasmania being made to recite pro-LGBTQIA+, I think I
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: got all the letters there correct, chance, affirming that, quote,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: gender is not simply male or female and that, quote, non-binary,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: cisgender and transgender are all valid identities. There'll be many
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: people who are listening who will say, well, that's true.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: And why wouldn't we teach kids that? Let's set aside
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the issues around whether that is or is not true.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: I know there were some people who were listening who
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: disagree profoundly and some people who will be 100% behind that.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: My question is, should we be teaching 13-year-olds this kind
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: of stuff? Yeah, and.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: There's a second issue to that, whether you agree with
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: it or not, just quickly, and that is should that
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: be the role of schools?
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And should that be the role of teachers to be
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: teaching that to your children without you being aware of it?
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Beautiful.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Without you being equipped to be able to say, right, well,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: that's what's being taught. Now I'm aware of it. If
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: they come home and they're looking things up or they
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: have questions or I know the extent of the curriculum,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: I know what they've been told, and I can either
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: confirm that or we can have discussions around that. And I,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: as a parent, can maintain my right to teach my
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: children about that, depending on my views. And I think
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: that that firmly has to still sit with parents and
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  Speaker 2: not state education. But you're right, in terms of the
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: developmental benefit to a six-year-old to teach them this, what
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: problem are we trying to solve by that? Where is
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: the evidence that introducing these concepts actually improves children's wellbeing?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I would argue there is no evidence for that. And
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: if you really want to go down a bit more
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: of a sinister path, you would say, well, there are
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: activist groups there who are being brought in as third
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: parties to teach our children to push this. Now, some
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: people agree with that, some people don't. But the matter
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: is we've conflated two things here. One is that there's
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: all sorts of people and families in the world and
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: we treat everyone kindly. Absolutely great. Beautiful. The other is
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: let's teach five-year-olds a particular framework that's highly contested As
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  Speaker 2: you said, there are people listening to this who will agree,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: there are people who don't. But let's teach them this
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: contested framework for understanding their sex and gender at five.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I don't see any benefit to it. And it comes
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: back to a lot of things, I think, that are
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: taught in school these days. I'm not saying particularly that
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: kids should not have some type of education around it,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm questioning the time that it is introduced and
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: why we don't delay that until far later. You know,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: the brain has so much to do at different developmental
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: periods through childhood. And children who are five, six, seven
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: are extremely concrete thinkers. Right. And we know that. The
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: developmental science on how the brain develops really hasn't changed
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: much in the last 50 years. And those kids in
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: primary school, you know, are very concrete, very literal, and
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: they They struggle to understand big abstract concepts, things that
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: adults are really kind of grappling with. They are really
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: going to quite struggle with. And kids, look, kids are
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: already aware of gender. I get that. They notice sex
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: differences pretty early. They notice girl and boy and mum
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and dad. But noticing categories is not being the same
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  Speaker 2: thing as being ready, cognitively ready for this abstract discussion
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: about whether those categories are subjective or whether they're internally determined.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: Hugely confusing for a child. And I would just say
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, unnecessary at that age period. Yeah.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I haven't read any evidence that suggests that this is
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: a good idea, especially in those younger age groups, even
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: in early adolescence. After the break, Claire, let's have a
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: chat about the clinical realities that you would be confronted
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: with when you're sitting down with a family who has
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: a child who is experiencing some gender confusion. And I
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: also have a case study that I want to run
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: by you. I think that it gives us reason to
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: pause and consider exactly what we're doing to our kids
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: in schools around this topic. Stay with us. This is
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast. Claire Rowe, educational and developmental psychologist
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: with me today talking about gender ideology being taught in schools. Claire,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I want to run a story by you. A family
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: that I'm familiar with had an experience where their child
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: had never given any indication whatsoever of any gender identity confusion,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: any struggles with their sexuality. This was just a really
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: happy little girl who was growing up like every other
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: little girl grows up. Hit grade seven, the Gender ideology
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: content was taught in a class and she walked out
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: and just said, oh, well, that sounds like me. And
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: there seemed to be in her grade a little bit
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: of status around taking on a particular identity, not a
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: mainstream identity, but stepping into saying I'm bi or I'm
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: poly or I'm asexual or I'm gay or lesbian. And
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: over the subsequent four or five years... she stepped in
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and out of every one of those identities, literally. And
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: because I'm familiar with the family, I was watching, my
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: kids were talking about it, I was talking about it
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: with them, as this person was seemingly struggling to work
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: out who she is. And I couldn't help but think
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: that had the school not stepped in, had the parents
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: been aware of what was being taught and just said,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: we'd actually rather deal with that at home rather than
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: having a daughter involved in this. My sense is that
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: she probably wouldn't have had any of that confusion and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: gone through any of the heartbreak and challenges. At one point,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: she was pretty well convinced that she was transgender and
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: her and her family were having some heartbreaking conversations about
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: her having top surgery, a double mastectomy as a 16-year-old girl.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Just irreversible, right? This really huge thing. Now she's a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: little bit older. She's finished high school and is an adult.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And she believes that she's bisexual because she actually is
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: very interested in guys, but she's still open to a
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: relationship with a girl. A lot of confusion, a lot
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: of heartache, a lot of difficulty. How often do you
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: come across this and what do you do in a
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: clinical setting when you're presented with a family or a
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: girl or a boy who are experiencing this because of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: what they were introduced to at school?
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I could say that we're certainly presented with it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: a lot more than we were 10 years ago. I mean,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: you know, exponentially I've run a child and adolescent mental
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: health clinic in Sydney for 15 years with a team
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: of child psychologists. And it was pretty much unheard of
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: 10 years ago. In the last five years, it's certainly exploded.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Let me just come back. First of all, you know,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: when people ask me about this explosion and, you know,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: there are two distinct camps. And I know this has
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: been quite simplistic, but two kind of camps of kids
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that have gender distress. And one is, stereotypically, they come along,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: parents say, our son, stereotypically, boy is 13 and has
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: been distressed about his gender his entire life. We can't
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: remember a time that this child was not distressed. We
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: have memories of when he was two and it has
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: caused him absolute emotional turmoil his entire life. He has
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: no other history of mental health difficulties. There's no other
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: significant trauma in his life. And the family are quite supportive, though,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously seeking some help. So that was traditionally
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: extremely rare, but it did happen. We had these individuals
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: coming forward and gender dysphoria and gender distress is still
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: in what we call our DSM, so our book of
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: mental health difficulties. That's not me being controversial. as some
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: might say, it is in that book and still listed
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: as a mental health difficulty because of the distress that
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: it produces for someone. Now, the cohort of children that
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: has exploded in their presentations and frequency to a clinic
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: like ours in the last five years is quite different.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: They are a child presenting typically just before puberty at
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: 11 or 12 years old, a lot of females presenting,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: parents reporting that there is no history of gender distress
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: at all. This is the first they've heard of it.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: In fact, it's suddenly cropped up in the last few months. However,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: there is a history of some other mental health difficulties,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: whether that be generalised anxiety, whether that be a developmental
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: disorder like autism, whether that be some family trauma like
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: a high-conflict divorce or separation, whether that be some other
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: events that have taken place. So there is a history
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: of some other difficulties. There is also the fact that,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: as you alluded to, many of their friendship group is
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: also identifying either as transgender or or some type of
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: other identity linked to their sexuality. And if I could
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: be as cheeky to go as far as saying gay
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: is probably not trendy enough now. We see very few
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: children identifying as perhaps I'm gay, which I actually think
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: we can make light of, but at the same time,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: quite a serious issue that perhaps a lot of these
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: you know, gender questioning kids are gay. But we've come
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: so far in this wonderful in accepting homosexuality and people
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: being gays is normal, but it's actually not pushing that
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: line of controversy anymore. And they're poly or they've come
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and educate me about the pronouns and names that they
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: are now identifying as. So those two cohorts are very
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: different presentations. And so when a child presents to someone
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: like me, we have to do that assessment. And for
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: the vast majority of children, they are coming with a
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: what we call sudden onset of gender distress. It's only
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: just occurred in the last six months, but they have
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: a history of some other difficulties. Now, if anyone has
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: worked or has a 12-year-old girl in their house, the
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: worst thing I can say to that client is, don't
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: be silly. No, you're not. You're a girl. because they'll just,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's not going to work, right? They know
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: better than me. They know better than anyone. And for them,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: it's very real distress. And so that's when we get
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: into this controversy about gender affirming care. And I've been
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: very critical of gender affirming care for children. And so
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: people say to me, well, do you refuse to call
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: them their preferred name then, Claire? No, of course I don't.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: If someone wants to be called something different and I
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: will use their preferred name and I'll say, okay, you're
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: now known as Sam. Okay, Sam, no problem. Come into
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: my office. What I generally do, Justin, is I kind
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: of validate and say, yes, you're going through this distress
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: and we just park the issue. Because generally speaking, there
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: is a lot of other things we can work through.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: It's the bullying at school. It's the history of anxiety.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It's mum and dad's divorce. It's the autism that we
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: can help with some social skills and regulation. So there's
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of other things to work on. And we
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: start there. And we start a very exploratory approach. But
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: we start treating a lot of the other things that
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: are there without dismissing the gender distress. And... I can
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: tell you that the children that I have seen in
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: our clinic after working with us in quite a long-term
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: fashion compared to how we normally work with kids, I mean,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: they're with us kind of a year or two, it
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: does fade into the background. And they might, as you
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: said with this case study yourself with friends, they might
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: jump from saying I'm trans to now I'm bisexual, now
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I think I'm something else. And that's okay, that's okay.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: And we keep working on the other issues and we
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: keep working on the family relationships and the dynamics. And,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: you know, we don't get into this kind of no,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you're not, yes, I am position. And I coach parents
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: to do that as well. My concern, Justin, is that
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: other clinicians may take a very different approach and particularly
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: if a child at 16 is is wanting a double
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: mastectomy and they may be presented with someone who's quite
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: affirming of that, as you said, they could absolutely go
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: down a very speedy medical path that is irreversible. And
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of evidence coming out to show that
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: things like puberty blockers are creating irreversible damage. My concern
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: is the speed at which children are put onto a
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: medical pathway.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Claire, there's so much more that we could talk about.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Our time is well and truly done. Let's bring it
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: back to where we began because we've kind of ended
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: up at the tip of the spear, the really pointy stuff,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the downstream effect of a child being influenced by content
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: that's being shared in a classroom that they may never
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: have thought of had it not been brought up in
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the classroom. And now all of a sudden they're trying
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: to find their true and authentic self, but maybe getting
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: very confused along the way. For some, it's exactly probably, potentially,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: maybe what they need. For others, it may be one
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: of the worst things that could ever happen to them.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I think that there's this blanket that we're throwing across
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: all students, presenting them with this material so early at
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: a developmentally inappropriate time, I believe, and then leaving them
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to figure it out on their own or to fight
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: with their families about it. So just a practical tip
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: as we wrap up. If a parent is worried, hearing
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: this chat and just thinking, I have no idea what
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the kids are being taught about sexuality at school, what
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: do you encourage parents to do to get across this?
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I would encourage parents to see if they can open
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: up a discussion with their school or with other parents.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And perhaps I think it's always easier if you approach
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: a school in a group of two or three and,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: you know, without any accusatory language or anything like that,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: just a helpful dialogue to say, hey, As a parent,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I'd really like to know what they're being taught around
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: this particular issue. Could you provide me with some of
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: the lesson plans, the curriculum, the detail around it? because
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: we don't want to jump to conclusions and we can't
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: make decisions before we know exactly what's being taught. And
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: even if you then thought, okay, I'm okay with that,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: but at least then you know, and you know when
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: it's being taught. Could you let me know kind of
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: when that, you know, is it term two or term three,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: so that I can then follow that up if I
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: choose to as a parent with a discussion with my
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: kid as they come home. I think that It's very
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: hard for working, busy parents to think, gosh, now I've
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: got to be over my kid's curriculum as well. I
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: just want to be able to drop them off to school.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: But I think this is too serious probably to miss.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: And I would just encourage parents to, you know, have
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: a chat in a non-alarmist way to fellow parents and say,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: what do you think, you know, would you support me
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: and kind of ask him or school for some further information.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm equipped as a parent to know what my
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: child's being exposed to.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Sensible and simple. Get curious, not furious, and don't send
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: an eight-page email. Just go and have a chat to someone. Yeah,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: great stuff. Claire, I've loved this chat. I think we
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: should talk again. I love having you on the podcast.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I love your insights and what you've shared. And there's
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: so many different topics that we can talk about. You
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: bring them up all the time in the papers as well.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: So let's do that. Claire Rowe is a Sydney-based child
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: educational and developmental psychologist. And she writes for so many
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: people and does a whole lot of TV and a
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: whole lot of other stuff. You can visit her website.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes if you'd
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: like more information about what Claire's doing. The Happy Families podcast,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: sound and audio engineering, is by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Mim Hammonds looks after our other support. And for more
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: information about making your family happier, you'll find it at happyfamilies.com.au.