Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Mental Load: When You Love Your Partner but Resent the Hell Out of Them | Love | E550

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Mental Load: When You Love Your Partner but Resent the Hell Out of Them | Love | E550 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 1: without further delay. Let's get on with the show.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Women are have more power and more economic power than
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: more education. Men are interested in being primary cares, primary shares,
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  Speaker 2: and are doing more work and yet everyone still feels
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  Speaker 2: because awesome.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: If you ever felt resentful, angry, overwhelmed, or just drained
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: because it feels like.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: You are doing more than your fair.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Share in your relationship and running life compared to your partner,
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're tuning in today because we are going.
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  Speaker 2: To talk about this. If you are constantly doing a
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  Speaker 2: million things at once. While you're doing is fragmenting your
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  Speaker 2: energy and pushing yourself towards burnout right, And so a
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  Speaker 2: lot of times I would hear this as almost a
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  Speaker 2: badge of honor, like I'm really good at doing all
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  Speaker 2: this simultaneously, but I feel so burnt out. I'm exhausted.
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  Speaker 1: And by the end of this conversation, I hope you
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  Speaker 1: have some new insight into what's going on and some
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: actionable strategies that you can take back into your relationship
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  Speaker 1: to create a more balanced and dare I say, equitable
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  Speaker 1: partnership that feels better for both of you.
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  Speaker 2: There are moments where life is hard, but coming together
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  Speaker 2: and caring and understanding and deepening and sharing the load
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  Speaker 2: is actually pretty critical, and that took about twenty years
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  Speaker 2: to get the right balance on.
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  Speaker 1: If this is your first time listening, welcome. This is love,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: happiness and success, and I'm your host, doctor Lisa Marie Vavi.
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  Speaker 2: My background.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a psychologist, a marriage or family therapist, a word
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  Speaker 1: certified coach, and this subject I have to tell you
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  Speaker 1: is near and dear to my heart. I have experienced
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  Speaker 1: this in my own marriage and many couples that I
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  Speaker 1: work with do as well. And today we have a
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  Speaker 1: very special treat I have a guest, Doctor Leah Rappanner.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Rapanner is a professor of sociology at the University
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  Speaker 1: of Melbourne and she has a lot of experience researching
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  Speaker 1: inequities and relationships and.
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  Speaker 2: Why they exist.
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  Speaker 1: It has a lot of thoughts about how to restore
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  Speaker 1: order and balance.
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  Speaker 2: So doctor Rapanner, welcome, thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 1: So let's just dig into this. I was so excited
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  Speaker 1: to learn about you and your work because frequently, as
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  Speaker 1: a marriage counselor like this is a primary complaint, people
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  Speaker 1: come in and they are honestly angry, They are exhausted,
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  Speaker 1: they are resentful, and when we talk about it, it's
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  Speaker 1: because they feel like they are shouldering the burden of
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  Speaker 1: all of this stuff and their partner isn't and it
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  Speaker 1: feels unfair and they have tried talking about it and
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  Speaker 1: nothing changes. And I know that there can be many
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  Speaker 1: different reasons for this, but first of all, you know,
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  Speaker 1: take us into your research and some of the things
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  Speaker 1: that you've you've found.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So I am a sociologist, which means I am
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  Speaker 2: studying the ways in which we individually move through the world,
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  Speaker 2: and how we behave in ways that maybe we don't
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  Speaker 2: quite anticipate, we don't quite know, And what do the
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  Speaker 2: patterns look like across groups. And so I've spent twenty
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  Speaker 2: years looking at, you know, the division of household labor
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  Speaker 2: women in AI and one of the things that I
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  Speaker 2: consistently found was like, hey, women are doing more of
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  Speaker 2: the housework in the childcare on average. Men have stepped
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  Speaker 2: into more care as well. So we have a paper
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  Speaker 2: showing that actually men are doing more now than ever before. Generationally,
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  Speaker 2: they're taking on more of the primary care, they're taking
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  Speaker 2: on more of the housework, and women are also doing
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  Speaker 2: the same amount as previous generations. And so the question
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  Speaker 2: for me was like I keep looking at this thing
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  Speaker 2: where I see that women have more power, they have
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  Speaker 2: more economic power, they have more education, men are interested
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  Speaker 2: in being primary cares, primary shares, and they're doing more work,
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  Speaker 2: and yet everyone still feels exhausted, Everyone still feels burnt out,
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  Speaker 2: everyone still feels like there's not enough time energy in
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  Speaker 2: the day. And what are we missing? What is the
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  Speaker 2: piece of this puzzle that we haven't actually articulated. And
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  Speaker 2: what I kept bumping up against her. I kept finding
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  Speaker 2: was that we don't have a good measure of the
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  Speaker 2: mental load. We haven't brought that conversation into the conversation,
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  Speaker 2: and part of that is because we don't have really
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  Speaker 2: good language for it. We're talking about these things in
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  Speaker 2: all these different ways. But my goal with this book,
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  Speaker 2: my goal with this piece of research is kind of saying, hey,
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  Speaker 2: let me help you articulate perhaps what you're feeling, perhaps
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  Speaker 2: what you're caring, so you can step into conversations in
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  Speaker 2: a more honest, direct and open way. Amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I love this, and I think we should. I'd
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  Speaker 1: love to dig in more deeply to this idea of
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  Speaker 1: the mental load, the energetic burden that.
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  Speaker 2: Just like remembering all the crap could take on us.
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  Speaker 1: And and you, guys, here here is the book we're referencing.
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  Speaker 1: The book is called Drained, Reduce your mental load to
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  Speaker 1: do less and be more, Doctor Panter. I understand that
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  Speaker 1: your research has revealed gender and equities and sort of
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  Speaker 1: socialization and how there can be imbalance around gender lines
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  Speaker 1: in opposite sex relationships. And I'm just going to be
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  Speaker 1: also the voice of a different perspective in this conversation
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  Speaker 1: because what I have seen in my own family and
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  Speaker 1: many people around me, and also in many couples, is
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  Speaker 1: that having a relationship that feels out of balance is
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  Speaker 1: really really common. That happens to so many couples, That
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  Speaker 1: happens to say, sex couples, but in my experience it
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  Speaker 1: is frequently male partners who are actually the ones who
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  Speaker 1: are shouldering more of that mental load and doing all
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  Speaker 1: kinds of things and feeling annoyed about it a lot
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  Speaker 1: of the times. So I just wanted to share that
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  Speaker 1: that this can look like a lot of different things
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  Speaker 1: and a lot of different families.
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  Speaker 2: So with that in mind, so help us unpack this idea.
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  Speaker 1: So mental load, I think I've probably experienced that, But
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  Speaker 1: what do you define it as?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for leting me the researcher again, I'm
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  Speaker 2: app sure this. So with my colleagues s Brinda Churchill
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  Speaker 2: and Liz Dean at the University Coved, we wrote an
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  Speaker 2: article in twenty twenty one where we actually gave a
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  Speaker 2: clear definition in the mental load, and one of the
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  Speaker 2: things we were saying is a is emotional thinking work
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  Speaker 2: necessary to keep your work, life and family running. So
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  Speaker 2: we often think about the mental load as being like
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  Speaker 2: akin to list making or kind of the work that
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  Speaker 2: mothers do. But it's not. Everyone carries a mental love.
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  Speaker 2: Everyone does emotional thinking work to keep your work, life
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  Speaker 2: and family running. You are all carrying a mental load, right.
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  Speaker 2: The question is what does the composition look like? But
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  Speaker 2: let me give you an example. So if you're thinking
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  Speaker 2: about something like is the milk running low for breakfast tomorrow?
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  Speaker 2: If it was just straight cognitive labor, we're just doing
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  Speaker 2: this thinking work and then list making, we would go, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: the milk is running low, let's put it on the list,
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  Speaker 2: let's buy it from the store. Problem solved, and everything
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  Speaker 2: is good. Sometimes our mental lows do work this way,
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  Speaker 2: but often what happens as we go the milk is
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  Speaker 2: running low? Oh, that means that my kid won't have
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  Speaker 2: enough breakfast for tomorrow. If they don't start the day
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  Speaker 2: off right. Then what does that mean for their future? Actually,
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  Speaker 2: what happens when they show up at school? They won't
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  Speaker 2: be able to concentrate. Are they actually concentrating at school?
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  Speaker 2: What does it mean if actually AI is coming out?
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  Speaker 2: Are is my kid going to even have a future?
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  Speaker 2: But wait, am I going to have a future? And
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  Speaker 2: then hold it out, I know, because it goes like this, right,
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  Speaker 2: and then what about my health?
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  Speaker 1: Wait?
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  Speaker 2: Have I got enough calcium? Am I gonna have osteoporos?
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  Speaker 2: If what I'm saying is triggering to you, I'm sorry, yay,
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  Speaker 2: I like no, I'm tens. Yes. Sometimes our mental loads
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  Speaker 2: kick off in this way where they start to go
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  Speaker 2: from A to B to C to D to E
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  Speaker 2: to F. Because there's actually, as my book defines, as
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  Speaker 2: research defines, there's eight different types of mental look you
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  Speaker 2: might be moving across. My goal is, of course, not
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  Speaker 2: for you to do that ping ponging, but it's for
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  Speaker 2: you to get the language, the clarity, the understanding of
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  Speaker 2: why you're going A, B, C, D and E, so
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  Speaker 2: that you can take some control back. You can start
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  Speaker 2: to go that's not important that socialization, that you can
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  Speaker 2: start to change some of that away. And so that
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  Speaker 2: is the purpose of kind of my big vision for
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  Speaker 2: the work. But you know, the book does one piece
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  Speaker 2: of that. But I have lightenlab dot com where you
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  Speaker 2: can go and take a free assessment and see, like
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to help people understand what this might look like,
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  Speaker 2: so that y'are not just they're passive to the thoughts
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  Speaker 2: and you can start to say, hey, wait a minute,
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  Speaker 2: that's the meta mental load popping back up for me.
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  Speaker 2: Do I need to think about this right now or not?
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  Speaker 2: Can I say yeah another thing? Oh yeah, God, I'll
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  Speaker 2: say so many things to you today, but I can't wait.
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  Speaker 2: The only other aspect that came from that research that
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  Speaker 2: I just want to say is what we also said. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: so it's the emotional thinking work you do to keep
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  Speaker 2: your work, life and family running. And it has three characteristics.
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  Speaker 2: It's invisible. You do it internally, so you could be
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  Speaker 2: doing it right now, people won't even be able to
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  Speaker 2: see it. It's boundary list. And what that means is
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  Speaker 2: you can take your mental load with you everywhere you go. Yes, right.
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  Speaker 2: You probably don't take your dishes like you don't go like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I have dirty dishes at home, Let me just bring
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  Speaker 2: them to the work. The work will work dishwasher and
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  Speaker 2: put them in. But you're going to bring your mental
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  Speaker 2: load with you to work, onto your walk, everywhere, into
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  Speaker 2: the bath, even if you're awakened when you're sleeping. And
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  Speaker 2: the third thing about it is it's enduring. It's tied
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  Speaker 2: to the people we love the most, including ourselves. And
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  Speaker 2: so when does that thinking work? When does that emotional
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  Speaker 2: thinking work? Stop? It doesn't, right, because it's it's what
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  Speaker 2: tathers us to each other. What's make is as human
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  Speaker 2: and hole and this is that string that connects us
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  Speaker 2: to each other.
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  Speaker 1: Right well, and so and this is oh my gosh,
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  Speaker 1: I have like questions sprouting up like mushrooms after the rain,
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  Speaker 1: and now I have to figure out which one to
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  Speaker 1: ask you first?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, question number one? And this I thought was also interesting.
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  Speaker 1: And this is why I think this is going to
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: be a really cool conversation because you know, you are
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  Speaker 1: a researcher, academic, and a professor I mean like sociology.
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  Speaker 1: I think my perspective is as a practitioner, you know,
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  Speaker 1: clinical psychologist, have to ask and I don't know if
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  Speaker 1: your research has ever gone in this direction, but I'm
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  Speaker 1: curious part of what you described, like the chain of
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  Speaker 1: events and the oh my god, we're out of milk,
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  Speaker 1: therefore doom kind of you know, like that kind of thing.
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  Speaker 1: I am curious to know if you have ever explored
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  Speaker 1: personality variables and differences in that. But also it has
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  Speaker 1: a whiff of anxiety to it, like it's it feels
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  Speaker 1: like an anxious process that kind of goes out into
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  Speaker 1: the future and all these unsolvable problems.
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  Speaker 2: Like did you did you ever go into that with
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  Speaker 2: your research or not. I love this question because we
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: have been trying to figure out that exact thing, right,
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  Speaker 2: Like a mental load is a mental load the trigger.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to make the argument to you that I
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: think the mental load is the trigger to anxiety. It
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't always see that like a chicken and the egg
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: kind of thing, for sure. Yeah, it's like the antecedent piece.
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  Speaker 2: It's like the piece where your brain starts to go,
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  Speaker 2: ping ping, ping, and then your body reacts, right, you
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  Speaker 2: start to go And it's not that you're doing this
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: because you're you know, over zealous or anxious, or it's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: because sometimes well two things I'll say sometimes like the
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  Speaker 2: consequences are significant, Like when I kept hearing across the interviews,
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  Speaker 2: was like especially it's like I can't it's tied to
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  Speaker 2: the people we love, So I can't let my kid down,
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  Speaker 2: or I can't let my aging parent down, Like I
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  Speaker 2: this is important work, right, and so sometimes it's hard
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  Speaker 2: to not let it come and not let the anxiety go.
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  Speaker 2: But it's also important work to figure out when you're socialized,
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  Speaker 2: and this is where the sociologist and me comes in.
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  Speaker 2: When you're socialized into caring about things that like if
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  Speaker 2: you're totally honest with yourself, like you don't care about
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  Speaker 2: like you you really and you're deep in your core
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  Speaker 2: and your values, it's not important to you. And so
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  Speaker 2: my goal is how do you kind of put up
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  Speaker 2: a shield a little bit to that moment in terms
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  Speaker 2: of the personality types, Like, this is not the work
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  Speaker 2: we do, so we have not, but I am desperate
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: to hear what you think about this, Like how how
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: does this resonate for you when I say that? Like
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: what does it? What does it make you think? I
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: guess I would be curious to hear.
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  Speaker 1: I think that there are a number of different variables,
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  Speaker 1: but there there's a certain type of personality specific wiring
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  Speaker 1: that lends itself to worrying and if this then that
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  Speaker 1: and kind of going out into the future versus others
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  Speaker 1: that I have, Like I mean that the technical term
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  Speaker 1: for it is neuroticism, honestly, and just you know that.
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  Speaker 1: But it's also associated with conscientiousness, right, like wanting to
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: make sure that things are okay, but okay, so then
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: another question for you. It seems like this is tied
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: to what people care about, and I heard part of
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  Speaker 1: your definition as being that this primarily manifests in a
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  Speaker 1: personal life type situation, the mental load. I am curious though,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: so speaking for myself, I am a stone cold entrepreneur.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: It's all I've ever done. I've always run my own
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: businesses for better or for worse, usually worse. It's fine.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: But like the experience that you're describing has always come
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: up for me as a business owner. There's like, you know,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: managing like twenty plates spinning in the air, Like if
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not watching something, it's going to fall over. So
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: like I can absolutely relate to that experience. Have you
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: like different populations of people with that mental load or
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: just the exhaustion that comes from like why is nobody
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: else caring about this thing that I'm caring about right now?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, Well, I I'm going to answer like in
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: three different ways and then pick the one.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I asked you, like eighteen questions in a row, and
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: now we will have a buffet of answers.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I love this. I'm going to give you eighteen answers
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: in a row great, and then y'all pick the ones
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: you're like this get. One of the things I'm trying
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: to do through this work is to try to get
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: people this. So when you said, like, as you're saying
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: this to me, I'm thinking about like, as an entrepreneur,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I'm doing this in all these different areas of my life.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: It's training. I want you. I want people to start
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: thinking about the mental load in this way right like
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: thinking about like, yes you are, and the book is,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: you know, mostly focused on family life. But what my
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: work currently is doing is is how do we understand
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: the mental load to life? You work with these eight
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: different categories. So I write like, you will be doing
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: life organization for your businesses. You will be doing emotional
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: support at work when you're thinking about your co coworkers.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You will be doing dream building when you're trying to
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: build something new and interesting and dynamic. All of these
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: are mental load pieces. And one of the things I
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: really want you to get out of the book is like, hey,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you have finite mental load energy like you you are
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: not unlimited, and you might be spending it in a
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: way that's unlimited. But if you start to really get strategic,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: which I am sure you have had to do a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: million times if you were running your own businesses tell me, well,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you have to get strategic and go Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I can't care about that. I can't worry about that
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  Speaker 2: and get clear on priority true or false.
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  Speaker 1: You know what. I am aware of the need, but
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to do because it all seems important oftentimes.
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  Speaker 1: And so I think that that's something that I'm still
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: sorting through. But you're absolutely right. You cannot care about
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: every thing. You have got to be willing to let
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: some stuff go.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Or you will incinerate you. Yeah, seriously, Like, yeah, I
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: get it.
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  Speaker 1: And what you're saying is that perhaps that's one piece
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  Speaker 1: of it, is recognizing your own personal limits and when
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you're starting to get maxed out.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely so part of my solution is this mental
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: load audit right, and again I'm saying to buy the book,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: of course, but also go to the website. A lot
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: of the pieces are there you just want to do
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: if you want to take it to the guy right,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: go to the website. I like love and I have
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: this assessment. So of these questions that are like, you know,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: you know, are you burning through your energy? Faster than
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: you can replenish. Do you find it difficult to concentrate
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: on life's moments? Do you find that like actually, when
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: you're sitting there thinking about the next thing, do you
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: find it difficult to respond to opportunities? These These are
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: clear indications of what we're calling mental out. And what
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: I want you to be able to do is go like, oh,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I'm getting close, right, I'm getting close to where I'm
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: eating that burnout? What what can I either take off
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: my plate? Would you? Or get rid of? Some of
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: you can't. Some of you we heard this across the interviews.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Some of you are managing complex, complicated care dynamics, difficult
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: things going on in your life. And the idea of
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: me saying to you, oh, just drop some of that
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: is you know, jerk out right.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: People tell me like you shouldn't work as much like
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: not having this acrasation with you, right, thank you, that's right.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know I said that out loud, but I
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: thought it. I'll say it for you. Just have them
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: call me back off. And so in those moments, what
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I want you to have is two pieces. Like when
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: you're talking about work, I want you to have the
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: two pieces tied together. One is like, what are you
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: working towards and what are you working for? And that
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: will help to align your energy in a way that
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: is strategic, that isn't just everywhere. And if you cannot draw,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: what is happening during the moments of replenishing, what is
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: happening during the moments of rest. Because what I heard
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: consistently was people, in particular women who felt an incredible
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: amount of guilt and anxiety about taking resources for themselves,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: taking time, taking things, laying down on the couch like
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: and I'm not the only one who's shown this. My friend,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: a good friend, Katie Collins a yeah, has written a
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: book all about guilt being a very American experience. Not
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: all women experience guilt. But in those moments, you cannot
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: be sitting there watching Bridgeton or hanging out or whatever
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: you're doing with a mental load that is ruminating or guilt.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: You need that recovery time. So I want to say
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: you deserve it, you have permission to take it. It's
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: it's the right. If you cannot drop I am seeing you,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: I'm That is so incredibly hard, and then the recovery
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: time becomes even more important. Whatever that looks like for
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: you permission to take it, permission to take the resources,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: and it's like almost like a non negotiable rate, like
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you need that. Yeah, you absolutely do.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, and I cannot wait to dig in with
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you around what it looks like to rebuild and replenish
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: and kind of get back into balance and be okay again.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But first, can you share a little bit more about
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: what your research uncovered what starts to happen to individuals
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: and also by extension with their relationships, their family dynamics,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: when they really are maxed out, it is out of balance.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: They are, you know, trying to hold up the sun,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: and it is objectively too much.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: What happens, It's interesting. I'd be curiously from your experience too,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: so what you see on the practice side, because it's
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: like a slippery slope, right. One of the things I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: ask you to do in the book is to use
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: super sociologies or superpower. And one of the things I
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: kept hearing across the interviews when when people would describe,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: in particular, when we would describe like I am so overwhelmed,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: they would also simultaneously say to me things, but I'm
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a really good multitasker, like, I am so good at multitasking.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: The problem is is that sometimes no one can multitask
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: you actually can, our brains can't. No one's better at it.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: But if you are constantly doing a million at once
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: while you're doing is fragmenting your energy and pushing yourself
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: towards burnout, right, And so a lot of times I
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: would hear this as almost a badge of honor, like
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I'm really good at doing all this simultaneously, but I
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: feel so burnt out. I'm exhausted you right, Like like
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: those kind of like there's a disconnect, a cognitive disconnect
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: between the two things. And what that means is is
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: that you are stepping into your family, You're stepping into
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: your relationships depleted, depleted, exhausted, and potentially angry and frustrated.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Like I'm curious when you get the couples at what
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: point they are in the conversation or the like, what
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: are they in crisis for?
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So, no, that's a great question.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: And so what I have seen, and certainly this is
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: in the context of a relationship coaching, you know, couple's work,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: is that it has turned into bad feelings between each
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: other where one person and you know this is very true,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: like in some family dynamics for a variety of reasons,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: one person is sharing, shouldering more of the running of
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: the household, kids, parenting, clean and cooking all the jazz
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: in a way that almost feels like non consensual right,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and they want to feel like there's more teamwork in
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: the relationship, that they are pulling together in the same direction,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: like on the same page. And when that doesn't happen
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: in alignment with what they expect or believe should be happening,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: it turns into anger and resentment. Then that breeds conflict
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: where the other person can feel also like they're being criticized,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: not appreciated, not seen or recognized for what they are contributing,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and it turns into a downward spiral that can feel
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: really really lucky, because at the core is if you
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: really loved me.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: And cared about me, why is this happening? Why can
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: we not be doing this together? Why won't you x
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: y Z. That's what happens. I have one one of
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the last chapters of the book, I have a couple
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: that is went through the audit, did the whole thing
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: and and really felt like they were you know, she
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: says to them, I'm like, I realized this isn't about
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: the mental not it's about my marriage.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that was really helpful for
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: them or was hard, was like, sometimes is that feel
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: like when you say, Okay, you don't care about me?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Why are you not doing this if you don't hear
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: about me? Is it sometimes like what I would hear
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: across for the heterosexual couples, right, is that like they
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: almost couldn't understand each other's worlds in ways, right, Like
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: this feels heavy for me because of this reason, because
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I know I'm going to get a social penalty. I
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: know if I show up my kid is dishoveled, they're
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: gonna blame me at school because I'm a woman, even
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: if we're both busy and we're both working, and there's
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: gonna be a penalty. And sometimes the men would say
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: back to them like, don't worry about this, Like you're
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you're worrying about the wrong things. No one cares. We
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: have research showing that people do care and they are
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: expecting a judgment for that. But simultaneously the women would
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: be men would be saying like, look, you want me
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: more here, you want me more present, but like my
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: boss is going to punish me, right, Like if I
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: do this, like there's gonna be a consequence at work
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: for me. And we have research showing that that's true too.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And this is where gender norms are bad for everybody, right,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: like they trap us all in these systems that you
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: might not actually want. One of the interesting things was
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: because we did interviews and then we brought people in
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: and said, here's what we're hearing you say, like, here's
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: across the interviews what we're getting and pulling through. And
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: that was identifying the eight different types. And often what
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: would happen is the men would say like I didn't
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: even know that was happening for me, Like they didn't know, right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: And this, of course, as you've noted, it can go
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: in both directions, right, It doesn't have to be people
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: can be unaware. But how can you have known if
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you didn't have the language, right, Like, how could you
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: have known if someone just told you? Well, the mental
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: load is about making sure the permission slips are done,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: and the mental load is making it as sure that
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: the milk is there. But if I say to you, no, no, no,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: it's much bigger than that. It's emotional support for families.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: It's making sure that relationships are strong. It's magic making
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: to make sure everything feels interesting. It's stream building to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: mad out to the world this individual love you. And
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: you're all carrying these but you've never before, as a couple,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: as a society, had the language to be able to say, WHOA,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I'm caring that? Do I want to? Is it valuable?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Is it not?
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: It's not. You're not to blame if you can't communicate
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: what we don't know, you know, and I hear that,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I hear that, Well no, and this this is so good.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Well let's unpack this and and then we'll probably take
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: a short break here. But what you're really saying is
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: that there can be differences in what people are caring
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: about or indexing or like things that are on someone's
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: radar that might not be there for their partner.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: And I have to laugh.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And so just just to share, my dad was a
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: feminist and so I'm a very bad woman, a doctor,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: a panner, so you know, I'm an outliner. So my
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: my sister is too. But like, you know, it's so
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: funny with like when we have.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: People over to our house. I'm like, why do we
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: have to clean?
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: There are friends, they're gonna love us anyway. My husband
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: is like, no, they cannot see our house like this.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: And it's like running around like cleaning things and you know,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: all the stuff, and and tends to be much more
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: kind of conscientious and prioritizing some of the things that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: you have talked about. But it's like there are there
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: are differences in terms of like the things that we
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: are viewing as being important in that moment. And I
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: think that the real core here is that if any
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of us cannot not just see and understand, but actually
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: care about something just because it is important to our partner,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that can really create a relational rift, right, Like, if
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: it's important to you, it needs to be at least
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a little bit important to me if we're going to
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: have a good relationship with each other.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I agree with you on that. I love that.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: I love that you have the revers de program. Oh
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: my god, I love this. I love this, and you're
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: part so much. Oh yeah in many different ways. But
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I've been talking about this work with it people around
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: the world, which has been such a delight. So thank
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: you for having me and thank you to your listeners
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: and all this it's always makes it like it's such
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: a gift. It's a gift to hear how the idea
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: is because you spend all the time writing this thing
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and you have ideas and then you know the house
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and the land in the world. So thank you is like,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, maybe we've put a lot of too
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: much pressure on this. Like single unit. One of the
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: things I ask you to do is get clear on
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: who where are you going? Where are you specifically going?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Where do you have goals your dreams? If you could
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: go anywhere, and it could be as small as like,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: you know, women would tell me like I want to
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: learn to play the guitar, or it could be as
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: big as like I want to run for president. Great,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: we need it all right. When you start to get
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: clear on where you want to go your dreams, then
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: you need to get clear on your team. Who do
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: you need to help you? And the value is to
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: online and sometimes the answer is it's not your partner,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: it's not it's not your spouse, it's not your partner,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it's not your family. And so I think some of
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: that strategic work is going to the places where it
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: is the most valuable, where the expertise is the greatest
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: class networks, and so it could take a little bit
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: of the pressure too. I mean, I agree with you,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: like we all have to care about the things that
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: our partner cares about even a little bit as a
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: respect and a valuation. Absolutely, but we can also figure
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: out but sometimes actually we shouldn't go to our partners,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: We should go to our someone else. And that I
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: think is a valuable just like cognition or awareness.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that that makes a lot of sense too,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: to be able to own something that you care about
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: and not make it somebody else's problem necessarily, because I
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: also see that a lot in couple's work. You know
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that if you have a certain desire for things to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: be a certain way and your partner doesn't share that drive,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I guess to create it. There are other ways of
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: fulfilling that if it's really that important to you, as
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: opposed to trying to get your partner to see the
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: world differently, because that might not always be a reality
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: based thing, and that in itself might cause problems in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: a relationship. I've seen that many times, actually people judging
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: their partner by their own yardstick. You know, like how
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: things should be. I've experienced some of that. Not not judging,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: but like, well, you know what, hold on, let's actually
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: talk about this. Let's take a really fast commercial break.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: And on the other side, what I would love to
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: do is explore more you know, how these imbalances can
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: look in relationships, like things you've seen, and I could
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: share some things and maybe talk about our own lives,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: but also starting to talk about because you put a
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: lot of time into this, strategies for how to create
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: more balance that feel consensual.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Everybody's agreeing to it. It feels good for everyone, and
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: there's just more of that. Yes, we are in the
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: shared life together.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Is that okay?
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Sounds great.
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  Speaker 1: That's shopify dot com slash lahs. So we're back with
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: my very special guest, doctor Leah Rapanner and talking about
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: her new book called Drained. Reduce your mental load to
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: do less and be more sounds like a dream come
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: true for everybody listening, like, yes, reduce the mental do less,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: be more.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: But we were talking just before the break about how people,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: especially in relationships, like, let's just focus on relationships now,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: because this dynamic can also definitely happen in workplace environments
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and work relationships.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I'm doing more than you blah blah blah. So the
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: mental load piece.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: But then when we come into our intimate partnership's family life,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: this can take a lot of different forms.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: And if it's okay to ask, have you experienced this
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: in your.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Own life when things started feeling out of balance?
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Would you mind sharing us I've been married for Jillian
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: bajillion years. Course, yes, of course, it's the ebb and
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: flow and the up and down of all of this. Yes, yes,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I mean I could give like a couple of points,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: like where you know, at the start of the relationship,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: you're negotiating everything. It's like getting figuring out who, who
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: likes what and what's you kind of kind of the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: thing you said at the beginning, right, like what's important
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to you? What's important to me? Yeah, where are standards
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: and values? And how do we align on this right
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: and kind of renegotiating that. But one of the things
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I talked about in the book is, you know, I
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: am my partner my husband Casey. You know, he ran
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: this business in Australia. We had a micro brewery and
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and the mental load there was huge, I mean yours,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: you know, And how do you then maintain your relationship?
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: How do you renegotiate when things are heavy and difficult
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: and when people are chasing their dreams and it's hard,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: right and you want to be the support but ever
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: a two career couple and what does that look like?
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And so yes, there have been moments where mental loads
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: have spiked incredibly And I'll give you another example too.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: And then you're going to feel sad for me, but
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: your listeners are going to feel sad for me. But
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be okay. Three months, three weeks before
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: this book came out, I got diagnosed with breast cancer. Wow, right,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Like who knew? But the mental load to that, to illness,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: right to think about okay, is my family going to
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: be okay? It was incredible. My spike, right, It's a
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: spike in one direction, spike in one category, but the
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: love that my family gave me. So I guess what
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to say is this, these there are opportunities.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I have had a roller coaster of a marriage, like
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: many of you have. In all of the downs, we've
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: connected in a deer way and aligned the always a
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: mental load, but what it has done is allow, I think,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: allow us to understand that there are moments where life
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: is hard, but coming together and carrying and understanding and
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: deepening and sharing the load is actually pretty critical. And
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: that took about twenty years to get the right balance
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: on how about you? Okay, now I'm done?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Now about I ain't get that, but I know I
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: just and thank you for sharing what you just But
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I just like the image that came into
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: my mind as you were talking, is like there's this
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: very heavy thing that like you're carrying around with you
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: all the time, and that if that isn't recognized and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: seen and to have people who love you care about that,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: it feels very lonely and it feels like energetically really debilitating.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: And so that to have if you recognized and feel
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: like you can share it, this is important to me.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it night and day, you know, like
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: it takes up so much headspace. I thought, that's the
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: experience that a lot of us are walking around with it.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It takes different forms, you know, based on our circumstances
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and the things that we're orienting around.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: But yeah, oh, I love you for saying that. One
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: of my good friends when I found out, said if
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: only someone had a book where you could think about
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: finite mental load energy and realign your way, realign your
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: mental load and energy strategically. I was like, I love you.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: So I was She's like, use the work, use the work.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Started to do it and it's not true, were you
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: seeing right? Like, and I'm not alone. I mean we
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: heard this from people not complex care that, like they
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: would talk about, you know, I'm carrying this and then
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I can't drop it because someone will die or someone
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: will be injured. That I love, and then I'm spending
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: my mental load energy and negotiating with you know, insurance
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: or schools or health. So I am in no way isolated,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: and it helped give me a little deeper living experience,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: insight into the experiences that were coming through the interviews.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: But I guess I'm just saying exactly like you say,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: you never know what people are carrying and the and
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: if we can share the weight in critical and key ways, God,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: what a gift that would be for all of us. Okay,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: but how about you can I how about you? Oh yeah,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: what about to share a number of different examples?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, as I share previously, I
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: think that part of the way that I was socialized,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: you know, we're sort of more oriented around work and
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: career and things of that nature. But I know, like
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: in my own relationship, and I could speak to the
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: other side of this dynamic I have, My husband has
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: and we've worked through it. It's like we're in a
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: better place now. But you know, he has said things
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: like I feel like I do everything for everybody and
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: nobody clays up off themselves, and you know, like describing
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: this experience in a way that like we all need
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: to pay attention to and to be able to reseet that.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: You know, I've heard my I love my brother in
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: law so much. Every time I show up at my
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: sister's house, this man is wearing an apron, holding a
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: broom and oftentimes has some kind of like construction project
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: going on at the same time. And he's a very
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: manly man, but he's he's a fantastic cook.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: He does so much stuff.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: But you know, I think he has express feeling like
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: if it's travel planning, if it's finances, if it's all
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the things, it's like, you know, just what it feels like.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: My sister is an artist, and she is lovely, very
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: creative and absolutely beautiful, great sense of humor, but like
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: he's sort of the responsible one, do you know what
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I mean? And so like I've heard that from that
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and in so many couples, this experience of like how
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: that's what it boils down to, how can you not
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: care about this?
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Because what happens, I think is that if somebody cares
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: about something, they feel like somebody has to do it,
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: and if the other person isn't going to do it,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: then it falls to them. And that's where that energetic
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: weight comes from you know, but I think it goes
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: back to who cares more, like this is a silly anecdote,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: so you know, And I was so grateful. I walked
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in the house from work last night and my husband
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: had gone to the store, gotten stuff for dinner, cooking
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: the dinner, all the things, and I was like, I'm
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: going to help, and like, what do you wanta today?
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Is like chop the tomatoes. I go to chop the
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: tomatoes and I went to grab the knife that we
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: use for cutting vegetables.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: It was in the sink. It took it out to
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: thinking go chop the tomatoes, and he's like, what are
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: you doing?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And he literally took this knife out of my hand
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and he was like this has to be washed and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: turned on the hot water and the dish soap and
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: like scrubbed it and like I'd need like a solid
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: two minutes under the hot water.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like, is this really necessary?
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: But like that would be the kind of thing that
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: would irritate the heck out of him, because he's like,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: how how could you have cut our vegetables with this
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: knife without washing it first?
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: So you're trying to kill us.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: So that would be an example of something that somebody
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: cares about that it felt to him like do I
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: really have to do this for you? But I think
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: that that's where it kind of comes from. I get
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: weird about laundry folding.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: That's my jam.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: So I made the terrible mistake, and I would like
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to warn of one within the sound of my voice
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: not to do this. There's a show on Netflix Marie
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Condos Tightening Up, she tidying up. She's this little Japanese woman.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with the show or not.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Oh I condo my house too, so keep going.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I can't you know what if I had to rewind
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: the clock and like, you know, there's like this fork
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: in the road moment of my life, it would.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Like, do not watch that show?
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Because now I have very specific ideas about the way
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: laundry should be folded, and everybody else does it wrung.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: So now I am in charge of folding the laundry
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: because I want it in the little squares that I
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to be standing up with the drawers, and like
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I will literally refold the shirt that somebody else hold it.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: But then it's like, oh, I have so much laundry
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: to fold. And you know then that starts to feel
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: like I think, because I care about it, is that ridiculous?
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Like, oh, you're the perfect example this, Can I tell
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you? You were giving me the perfect
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: example of where I hope that couples end up, right, Yeah?
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: What I The answer? The short answer is like, there
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: are tasks that we have to do, like people are
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: gonna have to do some of the house where people
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: are gonna there are tasks we all have to do.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: We all have to carry mental love. We have to
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: do some tasks to keep our household fus some things, yes,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: some things right. The goal is to figure out how
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: do you align people with the things that they either
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: care the most about or love do. Yeah, that's it
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: I have for and the New America Better Life Lab.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: At New America, we had this coin exercise where you know,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: I ask people to start to articulate what is the
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: cost of this, right, right, like do you love to
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: do it? Do you hate to do it? And you
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: can get that for free. It's there, It's all the
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: website and you can access that, right. And so what
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: you're describing to me is actually like, hey, there's things
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: that I love to do, and there's things that my
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: partner loves to do or is better or you know,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: we've allocated these ways to our strengths, to our strengths,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: not based on our gender, but to our strengths, and
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: we are doing these the strengths big exercise. That is
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: what I would hear from the non head couples, from
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: the you know, the same sex couples that LGBTIQ plus bubbles.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: They would talk about, we don't have you said this
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: at the top two. We don't necessarily have more equal
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: arrangements at home, but we don't have as gender. We
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: have more gender fluidery. They're not fixed, they're not stuck.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: People take things based on their preference, and you're raising
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: another important thing, which is like and they would talk
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: about like, sometimes I get so sick of folding the
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: laundry and the little squares, Like I don't want to
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: do that anymore. I don't want to, So can't we
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: try important to me then having somebody else do it?
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, can we tell you I have to
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: own this? Yeah? Yeah, so can we reallocate? And they
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: would talk about like, okay, wow, sometimes they get bored
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: of doing this and then we just reallocate it. Now
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: you could be in charge of the dinners, right, Like
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I know that this might create a drama, I know,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: but like you could. And the other thing is one
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: of the things I ask people to do is like
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: good is good enough sometimes, right, If you care about
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: some things very importantly, then yeah, you should have you
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: know you should have them. But sometimes good is good enough.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: And our expectations, our standards are too high, and it
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: creates conflict and overwhelm and so we take some of
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: the pressure off, some of the right stress off. And
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: so I think you are actually the model example of
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: all of this. That's hilarious.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: But anyway, we need to take another short break. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: then on the other side, here's what I'd love to
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: do next, if you're open to this. So we have
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: a friend here with us right now, augur lea who
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: is in a relationship where they are not having a
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: good time. They are with somebody who seems to not care.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: It feels like the weight of the world is on
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: their shoulders. And they have even maybe tried talking about
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: this with their partner and they're just it feels unsustainable,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: like it's too much. They're getting burnt out something needs
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: to change. I love if we could talk about their experience,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: but also some things that they could start doing differently
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: in order to take some of that burden off and
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: have it feel better in every level.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Is that okay? Sounds great. Before my family acquired a
• 44:09
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• 44:13
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• 44:18
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• 44:26
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• 45:20
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  Speaker 1: That's shopify dot com slash lahs. So I am back
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: with doctor Leah Rpaner. She is a professor of sociology
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and the author of the new book Drained that talks
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: about what happens to us when we are out of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: balance and our relationships and our lives, like too much
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: is on us and something needs to change. So Doctor,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: just before the break, we were talking about, you know,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: really diving into the experience of someone who is in
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: a situation that is not okay, it is not consensual.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: They want things to be different. They feel like if
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: they stop, things are going to fall apart, and it
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: feels like there is no responsiveness when they try to
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: renegotiate the who does what from your perspective, or even
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: maybe a better question like what does the research say
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: about where we can begin to chip away with this
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: and you know, redistribute the load.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: That's a really interesting question. One of the things that
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: I would hear consistently would be kind of exactly what
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: you're describing, were you know, one person was feeling like
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: if I step out of this dynamic, everything's going to
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: fall apart, right like I'm the lynchpin on this, and
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: and if I don't do it all and I don't
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: do it to a certain standard, things will fall apart.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: I would hear about developing between one and a million
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: contingency plans, right like, you know, okay, what about this?
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: What about this? What about this? I would I would
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: ask if I were in this moment, I'd ask this
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: person just a little bit of sense checking which of
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: these is true? Right? Like is it true that actually
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: it will fall apart? Like is it true? And what
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: are the consequences? Like is that a fact?
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Is that true?
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Right? Like? From reality? Just all right? Yeah? Because sometimes
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: you know, we well, of course we can see the
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: best This is where I say the good is good enough.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Of course we can see the best option, and of
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: course we can see the eight million things that could
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: go wrong. But oftentimes the eight million things don't go wrong.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: And sometimes actually, if you are so determined to have
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: it in one certain way, then you miss the ways
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: in which others. I described this in the book, like
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: it allows, you know, allowing people, you get to see
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: the individual, You get to see the different ways to
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: do things, and then you can see the skills and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: talents of your family, and you can actually build beautiful
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: moods when things go wrong, right like, actually, sometimes the
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: things going wrong are this big and they're kind of
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: cute because our kids step in and do things that
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: are kind of funny. So I would want I would ask,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: what is that in fact a true assumption? Is that
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: a reality check?
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I would want to be an example of what we're
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: talking about right now, where people get get sort of
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: fixated on like, no, everything is going to fall apart,
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: and it has to be this way that you found
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: like when you really go in there, we have a
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: little bit of a wiggle room.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, like okay, so they were well okay. For example,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: I would hear things about, you know, dishwashers that got
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: restacked like men was okay, I'm I'm in the kitchen,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I got washed correctly.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: I've had my dishwasher reorganized by the way.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, And then the question is if that happens
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: to you, let me. I'll ask, well, how do you
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: feel do you want to participate? Like how do you
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: feel in that moment when someone has come in and
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: redone your work after you? I don't know, I refold
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: the laundry. I mean, we're everybody's a weirdo in my house.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: So I was like, weirdo, it's fine. So sometimes people
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: would do like sometimes people would describe recoming in and redoing,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: and then there was like, well, I don't want to
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: do this. If you're just gonna if you don't let
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: me do it the way I am going to, then
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do the work. I would hear
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: talking about like, you know, a million things that could
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: go wrong, like okay, what if we drop the kids
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: off and this this goes wrong or they don't have
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: this or the the eighteen things, like what if they
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: need that? And you know, there's always this joke about
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: men stepping out of the house with nothing but their
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: keys and women stepping out of the house with a
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: bag full of stuff, and that is a stereotype and
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: it's a kind of like emblementic of this, right, And
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: my goal is like can't we come a little bit
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: to the middle, right, like like okay, maybe you don't
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: step outside with nothing, but do you need to step
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: outside with everything? And what is the cost of actually
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: step doing that work? To step outside with everything? There
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: is a cost on that, right, yeah, right, And so
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: how do we figure out where Okay, so this is
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: my long way of saying, where are things strategic crediting
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: valuable investments of your mental load and your energy? Where
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: are they actually unnecessary? They take away from you, They
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: don't give you anything. It's like the sugar high that
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: gives you know, knocks you out and makes you exhausted.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: What's the nutrient dense? What's the sugar high? And how
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: do you get to do that? I have heard too people.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: One of the things I'll ask is, like I would
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: ask to you, is like have you been clear on
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: what your dreams, goals and ambitions are? Not what that
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: person's doing wrong, not about the standards, but like, where
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: are we trying to go as a family? Where am
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I trying to go as an individual? And using that
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: as the anchor point to come in and have the
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: conversation about what work is valuable and not because I
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: think that's a useful starting point as opposed to I've
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: asc you eighting times you don't care about it, this, this,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: and this getting clear on Okay, here's where we're trying
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: to go, here's what I value, Here's what's my non negotiable.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: How can I communicate that to my partner? Of like,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: this is where I'm trying to go, this is my
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and then what is the labor that needs to come
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: around that? And then you have the anchor point to
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: refer back to, Oh, I really think it's important for
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: me to do X, Y or Z, how do we
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: do that? What does that look like? Remain curious a
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: little bit in that moment, and then be an active listener.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: That's what I would say, Yeah, would say, Okay, what
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: would you say, how did I do it?
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I think that's great, and I love what you're saying
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: because I think that there's this level of self awareness
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: and when when I look at this, you know, of
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: course there's like the marriage counselor lens right, but also
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: even in my own life, it's like, there are these
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: core beliefs about what should be happening that could be
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: different from person to person, and that if we believe
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: with all our heart and soul that this should be happening,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: and something terrible is going to happen. If it isn't happening,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: and our partner perceives that differently, there's this there could
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: be a real disconnection. And what I have seen as
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: a marriage counselor is that there can be a lot
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: of criticism and conflict around trying to get a partner
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: to be more like them in a way that can
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: really tank a dynamic and push a partner away make
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: somebody feel very alone.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: But I was kind of laughing a little bit as
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: you were talking about like walking out of the house
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: with the keys right and thinking of an experience that
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I had personally.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: It was probably a couple of months ago now. So
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: I have seven, oh my gosh, now eight year old
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: and I went to the pool with my kid and
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: another mom friend. It was like a family and my
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: mom friend had like I don't even know how many bags.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: There was a bag full of clothes, there was a
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: bag full of toys, There was a bag full of snacks,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: there was a bag full of towels, like all of
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: these things, right, I think she had a tent. It
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: was it was out of control, and I like, my
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: kid got her little swimsuit on before we left. I
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: think I brought a towel and Keiths because they have
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: a snack.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Bar and a water fountain, like it'll be fine.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: And she lost her mind when I didn't even have
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: a change of clothes, because I was like, she cameade
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: home in a bathing suit, is fine, and but like
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing, like if she was married to me,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: she might be really upset because she would believe that
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: she is, you know, and all this mental energy into
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: getting the kids ready for swimming or whatever. And I'm
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: not participating when Virginia Satier actually said this. Virginia Sittyre
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: is a marriage and family therapist you know back in
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: the seventies, like its expirential, But she said, there are
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: literally hundreds of different ways to wash dishes, and what
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: makes your way so much more special and important than
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: somebody else's way?
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Necessarily right?
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: And of course there can be people with different values
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: and opinions about the way that they should be and
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: that's valid. But like, I think what you're speaking to
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: is the individual, Like, how did I come to believe
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: that this was so important and that this is what
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: we should be doing? And you're tying a lot of
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: that in your work, I know, to gender socialization forces
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: that we might not be aware of. I think fully
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: was a bit buffered by this in my own life,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: but it is, it is real for many people.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Do you want to say more about that? It's so
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: funny when you said it, like I have to get
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: rid of that. I must. It's why I have a
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: section in the book where I talk about starting to
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: quiet your I must, I should, and the what IFFs right?
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Like I must do it because I must have these
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: eighteen bags because if my kid doesn't have the perfect
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: experience at the pool or something goes wrong or right,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: it's like, then then what does that mean? For their future.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: I mean sometimes we can go in that direction, right
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: like yeah, like like what does that mean? And I
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: will say to you, as a sociologist, what I think
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: is going on is we've like slowly or quickly eroded
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: all sorts of supports, social supports, community policy support. And
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: we've basically said to you know, healthcare support, all the supports,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: and we say to families like, you're on your own.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: You are now individually responsible for making sure that your
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: child not only is safe. Most of the Milkie talks
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: about safeguarding children's features. I love this idea. Not only
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: are they safe crossing the street, but you need to
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: make sure they're safe against you know, inflation and global
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: warming and fill in the blank, right like, and so
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: now some mother sitting in Poughkeepsie is like responsible for
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: making sure that their child is prepared for a you know,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: stock market crash in twenty Oh my god. Generative AI ridiculous,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: right Like, actually, if we brought commune, It's just like
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: there's this direct correlation I think between the right uber capitalism, neoliberalism,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: and then there's like pressure on us cause and pressure
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: to be perfect. And what I love about what you're
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: describing is you've you've got. I'm asking women to do this,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: get rid of some of this. I should like there's
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: a snack bar and they can sit on the on
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: the chair and that's a okay, right right, it's all
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: gonna be okay. And that idea that there's one hundred
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: different ways to do something is we can learn through that.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: I have made a friend. I'm like, they're forty years old.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: My friend came over and loaded up my dishwasher. I'm
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: just going to tell you this because this has changed
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: my life. And maybe you already do this, you already
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: is I never did when I would load the dishwasher,
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: I would throw all the cutlery and as fast as
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: possible in whatever direction away. She organized everything like spoons
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: and one forks and one yes. It is like has
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: changed my life in that like now you don't have
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: to at the end, it's.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: All just like free sorting. I know that that is
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: a strategy, okay, exactly.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: And now if I had been pernicious about my house
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: and that's the wrong word, particular about my house, yeah,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: and said and said no, no, no, don't load the dishwasher,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: or I got it, or I pushed her out of
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: the way, I would have been denied a life changing
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: dishwasher sorting strategy. So how can we start to see
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: the total variation in each of us humans that then
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: allows us to learn and be and play in different ways.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I love this, And you know what that is an
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: exit strategy if you are caught it with feeling trapped
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: like I have all the things like what would actually
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: happen if you made space for your partner to do
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: things their own way, like we can have some cheese
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and crackers and baby carrots for dinner.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Right, you know, like that kind of thing exactly.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: And now I also just want to say out loud
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: that it is also true that you may be with
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: a non functional partner who has major depressive disorder, who
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: is struggling with the untreated you know, substance abuse problem
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: where they.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Are literally non functional.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: And that's that's a different problem and a different conversation.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Right. What we're talking about here is taking a step
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: back so somebody else can can take a step up.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: And what you can control are your own.
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: This is the way kinds of things that may or
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: may not be be true, right that that's one strategy question,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: though when it comes to because this is all about
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: what people care about, right, this is and why we
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: care about them. How have we been taught to believe
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: that these things are important?
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Have you?
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: Has your research uncovered ways that have been effective in
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: creating a mutually consensual shared vision for what our life
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: should be like that makes space for both people's truth.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: There Where is that more of a clinical application or
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: a practice application? I think it's both or you know,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: I think this is one of the goals I have
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: for the mental load audit is to start this conversation.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Start to have people have at least a little bit
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: of the tools and do the thinking work to start
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: this conversation. One of the things I like about what
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: I created. How about that for an egoic statement? How
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: about that for arrogance? I didn't even register that you
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: toot your horn? Girl? Let's good, thank you. One of
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: the things ALL like about what I created is the
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: fact that you can do this individually, right, Like, if
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: you have a partner. And it's interesting when you said
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: your partner, there might be other things going on, right,
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: and this is not what we're speaking yeah, right, And
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: in addition to that, we have your partner, you might
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: not have an One of the myths I talk about
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: is like most of us don't have equal relationships. We're
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: told we do, we're told we should, but we don't,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: and you might feel it's very I heard a lot
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: from couples who are trying to fight towards fifty to fifty.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: You might not want fifty to fifty. You might want
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: ebbs and flows and ups and downs, and you might
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: want equity but not the quality. Two different things, right,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: And so I guess what I'm trying to say to
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: you is I am not here to tell you what
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: to do with your partnership. Because you might have something
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: that's totally unbalanced and you're happy that's and that's great, right,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: like that's or even in different directions. But my goal
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: for you would be to to if you don't, if
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: you're the person is like I don't and I want
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: some change, But I would hear from women like, Okay, great,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: now I'm going to have to get him to do
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: this audit and come in and try to or you're
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: you know, a partner where you're not aligned with them
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: and have to force them into this. And my answer
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: for you is no, you don't have to actually want
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: even just you getting clear, So this can be something
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: you do individually. Inclusion, this can be something you can
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: do individually, and even you just getting clear on where
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: am I trying to go? What do I value? What
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: are the muss I shouldn't do? Where's my energy going to?
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I wanted to go in that direction? Even that, just
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: self reflective work and reclaiming your mental load, reclaiming your
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: energy back, that can shift your relationship with ways that
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: you don't have to do it as a couple. And
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: then in the ideal world, like you said, you come
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: together and you have that conversation together about where do
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: we go, what do we value, what do we care about,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: what's important to us, who's important to us? What kind
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: of world do we want to create? What kind of
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: legacies do we want to do? I think right now
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: people are so burnt out those big, big, actually very exciting,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: dreamy things. We're so conditioned to be scrolling and worry,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: you know, thinking about everything, giving our mental load energy.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: We've been told if we're informed, we're engaged. If you're
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: informed all the time in your burnt drop all some
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: of the information and create some space for your dreams
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: and your partner's dreams. I just even if you do
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: it independent, like yes, together it'll be great, but individually
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: even that can take a little shift, right, just a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: little shift.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: And so research supports that, you know, and again, you know,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: from a systemic perspective marriage Failly therapy, like when one
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: part of a system changes, meaning like you or me,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: it changes the whole dynamic. And so don't devalue changes
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: that you you make on your own and and right,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: maybe shifting from how do I get my partner to
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: sit down and do this workshoot with me too, you know,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: maybe getting curious what what do they care about?
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, what do I care about something? And like what
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: if one conversation that is like, oh, you know, excited
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: about X Y. You know, I'm excited about doing this.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: I'm excited about a new project. I want to learn Italian.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: There's an energy that comes from when you're stepping in
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: with your ambitions, right, I mean, well that's one very
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: last thing, and then I know you need to wrap up.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: But so so when your research and you know, even
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: as we were reflecting on I was reflecting on the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: things so we talked about today. You know, I think
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: as I reflecting on my own life and how it,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: you know, is maybe compared to what research shows is
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: the norm or whatever. I mean, it's it's certainly does
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: not represent my relationship in any way. But I think
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: that a large part of that is probably due to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: early socialization influences, So me being raised by a dad
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: who was a feminist, and there were only messages about
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: how are you going to take care of yourself?
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: You know, like all of that.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: My husband, in contrast, he grew up in a family
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: where he really did take on more of like a
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: caretaking role, and so like there you go. And I
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: think that in our family, like you know, our older
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: child son, he has all kinds of fluidity and one
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: of his very favorite things is cooking, and so like
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: he likes, you know, taking charge of those and creating
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: spaces for it to be okay to be a lot
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: of different ways in your life. Right, But what have
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: you found research say that you know, parenting practices or
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: perhaps early messages that can buffer people well from conforming
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: to some of these like gender based ideals that maybe
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: aren't really true for them. I mean, we always laugh
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: because like my daughter's school, something comes up. They still
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: call me for some reason, which I think is hilarious,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: like jokes on you, dude, but like that is our society.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of assumptions being.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Made about who's supposed to do what and all that jazz.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: What do you say to that?
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: What's the research there? I love what you're talking about
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: early exposure. I love what you're talking about is like
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: two things, like making the box bigger for everyone. It's like,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: what type? That's very sociological, right, Like how do we
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: make the box of activity that people can engage in
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: without judgment, without fear, without social penalty, bigger and more fluid.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: I was just at a talk the other day where
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Stephanie Koontz was talking about, like there was this split
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: in the history where actually femininity and masculinity became at
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: opposition that you know, if you're more feminine, you're less masculine,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: And what a shame for all of us that this
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: has happened. When I think about the research, I think
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: about what you've described as opportunity, early opportunities for care.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: For caring and for caregiving is such a life changing experience,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: and it's life changing across different demographics and at all
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: moments in time. To be humanist a care We're all
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: going to have to be cared for or cared by
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: someone else at some moment in time, and so to
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: open the opportunity and there's so much value that comes
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: from that connection to each other. We had a research
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: project where we actually ask people about their confidence, right
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: are you confidence caring? Confident caring for little babies, toddlers
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: and then you know, children who are about school aged.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: And what we found was actually women on average had
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: to higher confidence across everything, but that confidence gat closed
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: when people became dads, right Like. The dads were just
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: as confident in their caregiving across ages when they had
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: the direct experience of care. And I think one of
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: the things that we've done is we've made care dirty
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: for men, right Like. We've done that in a really
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: perverse and disgusting way within society, to make men feel
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: like when they're caregiving that there's that they're going to
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: be called the pedophile or there's some risk to them,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: right like about caring for others. And that message comes
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: so early. I mean, I know, I'm like on a
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: tangent ram, but I do know it's good. Sorry, i know,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I'm like, now I'm really out in the woods. But
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: I just want to say, like that that's a social
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: conditioning and that's a context that actually I think what
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: you're describing is like we all come in and we
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: care for each other and the ways in which we
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: can and we celebrate that, right. I think that is
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: a critical moment, in particular bringing boys in early on
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: to the care and then showing young girls right like
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: that there's not it's not just caregiving, right, it's a
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: little bit opening the box. That's what I think. It's
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: all about opening the box set. So, yeah, there's a
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: range of experiences, activities, behaviors that are non gendered like
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: that are just things that humans do, not things that
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: women do, not things that men do.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: We all do absolutely, and so you just think like
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: giving young people exposure to lots of different ways of
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: thinking about things and exposure to different opportunities and activities
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: to see what does like kind of naturally in alignment
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: with them and what they want to develop as opposed
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: to sort of predetermined rules about the way things should know,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: you're going to play with the pink toys or the
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: blue toys, like.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: That kind of thing. Exactly opening up the options and
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: why I love. What you said is like, we're trying
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: to do that in the family because we know once
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: they move out into society, we can't control that it's
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: gonna cos that's true.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: So you mean, yeah, well, and gosh, we could keep
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: going say more about an observation of society and where
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: that can can happen in ways that are subtle.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, even what you just described about. One of the
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: things I heard from parents across was like, I get
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: if the mother got so much school correspondence, they text me,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: they call me one One mother said like, I am
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: in a secure bunker, my cell phone does not work.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: I have put down called dad right, and they still
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: call me first. And so this is ways in which
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: you know even and then on those school level because
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: we've talked to people at schools and they'll say, well,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: sometimes the dads don't pick up right, the moms pick up,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: and so this is this way, mom does not pick up.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: I don't pick up either. This is where it's like,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: this is where you know you can be explicit, like
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be called, and yet you're still called.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: That is so when you gave that example, I thought,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: oh man, we heard this across at interviews at schools
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: reinforce this and that they put work on mothers and
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: right and so, but any movement through the world right,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: things that people are going to say, ways in which
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: we get pushed back into our boxes. You're like in
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: this little box, and women's box can sometimes be a
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: little bit bigger about what you can do. And I
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: think that men have a narrow box about what is appropriate.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: And so my goal is like, let's get rid of
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: the boxes. Let's just like you get a rainbow. Let's
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: make it like you can do whatever.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Totally absolutely, And I love that too. It's like, you know,
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: f you and your stupid box is like we all
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: have to decide what we want to participate in or not,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: and you know, to sort of who cares of other
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: people think you should be a certain way.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: They're not in.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Charge of you in your life. And you're going to
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: feel a lot better if you can like have that
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: be true.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: So I love Can I give you an example from
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: my child, just to give one more. Yeah, yeah, okay,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: So I have a daughter, right, and she was about
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: three and she went through many of you have daughters
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: who even if you're like me and you're trying to
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: create a gender fluid world. Gender just shows up, right.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: So she was obsessed with princesses and clippi clop shoes,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: which you call clipic colp shies, and so she would
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: show up in princesses and clippic colop shoes. She said,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: my friend Benji, who was a little boy, he really
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: wants a pair of clippy cop shoes. Can I bring
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: him one? Of course you can't. And he really likes yellow,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: so he'd like the yellow clippy cop shoes. So we
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: brought of course, bring whatever share with Benji, give him
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: the clippy cop shoes, right, So we brought that into
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: the daycare center. There was an uproar from some of
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: the parents because they felt like this was inappropriate to have,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: you know, this moment. And what they said to us
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: was like, actually, kids aren't thinking in gender norms. They're not.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: They're just actually spiram I like the way it sounds
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: or something so kind of interesting. Yeah, And we then
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: come in and impose that on that this age, they're
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: just they're flu They're moving through the world and trying
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: to figure out the world. And so this is like
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: at three, right at three, you're being told you you
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: can you can't. This is not for you. This is
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: for you, and that's just the start, right, yes, and
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: now we go from there. That's wild.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: I have to I have to show you think we're
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: like bonding now, doctor Leo, that this is but like so,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: but I really I have to wonder about, like how
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: much of this stuff is hardwired. Like my my niece,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: you know, we we called her Princess Evelyn because she
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: she was that, you know, with the dresses and all
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: the things. But like, let's see if I could so
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: my my kid. I don't while I don't know if
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: I can find this photo. But like she is now eight,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: and when she was three, she oh, here's what I'm
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: looking for, very interruptiles. We took her to this the
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: no seriously, like at a festival kind of thing, you know,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: that the face painting, and she could do the princess
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: or whatever. She's like, no, give me the snake right
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: on the side of my face, like she's at a
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: reptiles she has the snakes. But let's like, no, I
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: do not like snakes. Actually we never had that conversation
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: or ill, like, you know, snakes are cool.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: It's just like kind of who she is. I don't
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: think of an ear does this even come from? But
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: that's wild, That is just wild. Huh. And so how right,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: how do you then nurture the individual and their preferences
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: and who they are in their core and their spirit. Yeah,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: and try to keep some of that social bullshit away
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: for as long as you can pry or give them
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: the tools, which is, Michael, give you the dress to
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: go Nah, reject that, right, Like, yeah, to be fair
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: to you is what you do. By the way, as
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: you describe this, I'm like, that's what you're doing. You're
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: a sociologists, So congratulations.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm anatterary sociologist, but you know, like, but but
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: it would also it seemed to me like in order
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: to create that space for your kids to be who
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: and whatever they are, and if they want to be
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: some hyper masculine I have, like, go for it, that's
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: fine too, but like it would seem like you need
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: to manage your own conditioning first, because otherwise you're going
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: to be influenced by these shoulds and anxieties and what
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: are people going.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: To think and maybe even not even be aware of it?
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, such an interesting conversation, right, going, Oh my gosh,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: we're gonna turn into like a Joe Rogan like seven
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: hour podcast and we are Oh my gosh, no, we
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: could talk all that and this was such a fun conversation.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we did this today.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: This is good. Thank you for having me. Hey, before
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: I let you go, so you have your book drained,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: reduce your mental load to do less.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: And be more, doctor Leah Repanner.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: So we've been speaking with but you have you have
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: a website.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: You have a question before I let you go, tell
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: us more about where people can find you if they
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: want to start, you know, working through this stuff.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, y'all, I will tell you how great
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: I I am everywhere. So I'm on, don't you worry.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: I have an Instagram that I'm active on Instagram. I
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: have a LinkedIn. I have a TikTok. You can go
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: to www dot light and lap dot com. Take it.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: I have a podcast to you. I have a podcast
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: called he Was Perceived, where I'm talking to you about
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: the mental lead and I'm talking about some gender stuff.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: Oh oh, and I just started a substack today. I
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: don't know. I'm actually dass.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, I get kind of managed during the
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: summer too, so like maybe that's a.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: Normal okay, good, but I really do, like I know,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: I want to hear from you. I'm saying this sincerely,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: Like I uh, I have decades of research of eighty
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: articles I'm published, but like this is I want to
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: hear how these ideas. I'm trying to get the ideas
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: into the world, and I want to know what connects
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: for you, what resonates, what doesn't, because that's the next
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: research idea, right It helps to strengthen and when you
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: give me your insights and your information, I synthesize it
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: and I bring it back out to the world. So
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: thank you for this.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: Well okay, so get in touch with doctor lee way
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: in on your experience. I'll put it into the hopper
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: and maybe turn it into your next book. Okay, book
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: again has drained Doctor Lea Rahpanner Lighten Lab dot com,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: and thank you so much, doctor Lea.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: This was a really fun conversation. This was great. Thank
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: you for having me. Thank you.
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