Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Israa Nasir - Psychotherapist, Speaker & Entrepreneur | Reclaiming Your Time and Emotional Energy

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Israa Nasir - Psychotherapist, Speaker & Entrepreneur | Reclaiming Your Time and Emotional Energy · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  If I wasn't stressed out, then I'm not an ambitious person.
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  Our emotions drive all of our behavior.
• 1:45
  East Ra is a psychotherapist, speaker and founder of Wellguide,
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  a digital platform reshaping mental health conversations.
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  With over a decade of experience as a licensed therapist
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  in certifications from leading institutions like the Beck Institute.
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  I had done a lot of stuff in my 20s study
• 2:01
  and this tried to start my own digital health startup.
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  In my early 30s, I was starting to get the outcome of all of that work.
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  People would often say to me,
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  you must be so happy now that you've done this thing.
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  But on the inside, I just didn't feel it.
• 2:13
  There was such a big gap between how people saw my life
• 2:15
  and how I saw my life.
• 2:16
  So I did a little bit of self discovery on depression
• 2:19
  and I didn't meet the criteria for it.
• 2:21
  And so I was like, well, if it's not that, then there is something.
• 2:25
  So now I've ruled out the big thing.
• 2:27
  So that's kind of when I really went into this exploration of what's going on.
• 2:31
  She empowers individuals to embrace personal growth and emotional wellbeing.
• 2:35
  Her multicultural background, spanning Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Toronto and the US,
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  fuels her unique perspective on cross-cultural challenges and transitions.
• 2:43
  We just live so much happier.
• 2:46
  We are lies become so much richer.
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  When we understand our emotions and we can manage the difficult ones,
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  things don't have to move fast.
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  There's a lot of value in moving slowly as well.
• 2:57
  Her mission to inspire meaningful conversations,
• 2:59
  build confidence and elevate mental health for everyone.
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  Join her by weekly newsletter for insights,
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  recommendations and tools to transform your journey.
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  Let's rewrite the narrative on mental health together.
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  Welcome to success story.
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  I'm your host, Scott Clary.
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  but they support entrepreneurs.
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  That's why I'm such a huge fan of HubSpot.
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  It's right.
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  I'm excited you're here.
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  It's going to be a lot of fun.
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  What I wanted to start this was with a line in your book,
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  where you say that productivity isn't about managing time,
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  but rather how you manage your emotions.
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  So this is a very interesting sort of novel
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  cake on productivity.
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  So talk to me about that line and then what you mean by that.
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  I think that one of the things that I found very absent
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  in the productivity literature when I was doing research,
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  just for my own self,
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  originally that's how this book came to be.
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  I was trying to figure myself out.
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  The thing that I kept coming up against is
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  I can do all of the things,
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  but it's not changing how I feel.
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  And then I would see that with my clients as well.
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  You know, as a therapist,
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  I do a lot of work and behavior change.
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  And that's something you come up,
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  you know, people say often in therapies like,
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  okay, well, I changed my habits.
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  I'm doing all the things,
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  but it's not changing how I feel.
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  And that kind of pinged me into looking into the literature
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  between like the connection between our relationships
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  and motivate,
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  I mean, our emotions and our motivation.
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  So I got really into like social motivation theory,
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  social learning theory,
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  emotional needs,
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  core needs.
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  I started reading about that.
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  And that's where I really came to this conclusion myself,
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  which was that, you know,
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  our emotions drive all of our behavior.
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  Whether it's positive or negative behavior,
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  our emotions are the foundation
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  of how we show up in the world.
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  So it only makes sense that when we are trying to be hyperproductive,
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  that we are trying to manage some emotion,
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  whether we are pursuing a positive emotion
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  through the productivity,
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  or we're trying to avoid a negative emotion
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  through using productivity as a coping skill.
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  So that's kind of where I landed,
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  even in my own experience is,
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  you know, I know that I was using hyper productivity and optimization
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  and being chronically busy
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  to avoid a set of difficult emotions.
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  I think that really hits because even when you say it,
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  the immediate reaction is,
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  yeah, most likely that is what I'm doing when I'm trying to over optimize
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  or get an extra five or 10% out of my day,
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  even though I'm already putting it an hours.
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  But that's very hard for people to unpack
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  because I think that if we talk about productivity,
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  people don't usually tie it to emotion,
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  probably until it's too late,
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  probably until that productivity
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  and that hustle culture has basically ruined their life to a degree.
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  So somebody listening to this,
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  they want to unpack even where that comes from
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  or how they can start looking inside to figure out
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  what drives their day to day.
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  Where do they start looking?
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  What are some of the questions that even like you asked yourself
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  when you understood that you were over-optimizing
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  or trying to be too productive?
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  So I didn't think that I was over-optimizing
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  what I realized is that I was disconnected.
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  I think that's a really good,
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  I don't want to use the word good,
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  but it is a good red flag to look out for.
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  Right? It's one that you can't ignore
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  is are you feeling engaged in your life?
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  Because no one's going to sit there and think,
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  oh, I'm really hyper optimized, right?
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  Like it's just not the way we think about things.
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  And anyway, hyper optimized is a very rewarded, glorified thing.
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  So you're not going to question it like that.
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  What you want to tap into is how do you feel
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  after you do certain things
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  or how do you feel before you do them?
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  So for anybody who was a little curious about,
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  hey, like where do I sit on this spectrum?
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  Like I wonder what my relationship to productivity is
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  is what she's saying relevant to me.
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  If you want to do that kind of examination,
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  what I would say, and this is what I did,
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  is kind of look back to the last three weeks of your life
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  and look at everything that you did,
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  everything you committed yourself to,
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  the things you took on,
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  everything you said yes to,
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  and then do a little bit of like an energy emotion audit.
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  Just reflect back and think about,
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  okay, did I like the feeling I was having going into this?
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  Was I dreading this interaction?
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  Was I kind of so tired?
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  I was a dragging myself to this thing.
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  How did I feel afterwards?
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  And the two main questions you eventually want to get to
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  are do I have to do all the things that I'm doing?
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  And why do I do the things that I do?
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  And you have to really kind of follow the why in that question
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  because the knee jerk reaction is,
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  well, I have to do this because nobody else can do it.
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  I have to do this because of course I have to do it.
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  It's my job, it's my role, it's who I am,
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  that's what I do in my friends group.
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  Well, you have to continue to follow that.
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  Like, okay, why do I have to be the person that does it?
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  Why can't somebody else do it?
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  And just continue to follow this why
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  until you get to the core and you realize that
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  everything you're committing yourself to
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  is feeding some emotional need of yours.
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  When did you start to go down this rabbit hole?
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  I mean, the book is called Toxic Productivity.
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  So what was the inflection point in your life
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  that helped you understand that productivity can even be toxic?
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  Because we're even jumped into this and we went so deep
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  into the emotional component and productivity.
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  But I think that even to back it up a little bit,
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  like you mentioned, productivity is actually glorified.
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  So I think we even have to start by making the argument
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  why is some productivity even toxic?
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  But was it something that triggered in your life?
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  Was it something that triggered with one of your clients?
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  Was it sort of like this repeat thing that you saw again and again and again in your work?
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  What was the light bulb moment that put you on this path
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  and you made you sort of realize like,
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  oh, this is something that we should probably talk about and figure out
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  because this is not a great direction for high performers,
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  high achievers type A people to go through their entire life optimizing
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  and being continually more productive.
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  There was like an inflection phase.
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  It wasn't like one moment, but there was a phase.
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  And what was happening at that time is there was a big gap
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  between how people viewed my life and how I viewed my life.
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  In my 20s, I come from a very high achieving family,
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  right? You have to do while we're immigrants or like you have to do well.
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  And so I had done a lot of stuff in my 20s to set up,
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  you know, to meet the checklist of things like study and this and extracurricular
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  and try to start my own like digital health startup.
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  But it was just like this checklist, right?
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  So in my early 30s, I was starting to get like the outcome of all of that work.
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  So I was meeting the deadlines or I was getting the goals
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  that I had set out to achieve, right?
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  But on the outside, it really looked like I had all of it figured out.
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  People would often say to me, oh my gosh, like you do so much.
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  Your life looks so like you must be so happy now that you've done this thing.
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  You got this thing.
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  And oh, I remember you were working on this like two years ago.
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  Like now you have it, right?
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  You do all of these things.
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  You do all these things.
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  But like there was such a big gap between how people saw my life and how I saw my life.
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  And it was continuous.
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  Like everywhere I went, people would say these things to me.
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  But on the inside, like I just didn't feel it.
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  I just didn't feel it.
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  And it felt really weird.
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  Like the first couple of times people said it, I was like, okay, whatever.
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  Like they see my life a certain way.
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  You know, you see a certain section of someone's life.
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  But I think like with enough people saying it,
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  I kind of got a little worried about myself.
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  I started thinking that maybe I have a high functioning depression.
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  Because why don't I feel good about my life?
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  Why do other people feel like I should feel good about my life?
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  Right?
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  And so I did a little bit of like self discovery.
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  I did like self assessment on depression.
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  And I didn't meet the criteria for it.
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  And so I was like, well, if it's not that, then there is something.
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  So now I've ruled out the big thing.
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  So that's kind of when I really went into this, this exploration of what's going on.
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  And one of the, one of the things, one of the most common things people were telling me
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  about me is that I was really busy all the time.
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  So I started there.
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  You know, sometimes it's worth listening to what people around you are saying.
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  We don't necessarily need to be influenced by other people's opinions.
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  But I think it's worth examining if there's a certain thing that repeatedly comes up over and over again.
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  And so I was like, am I too busy?
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  Because to me, I was being normal.
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  Like this is just, this is just being ambitious.
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  This is just normal.
• 13:14
  And so that's kind of that's where it began.
• 13:16
  So what did you, what did you, by the way,
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  this resonates so deeply, this, everything you're saying.
• 13:22
  I'm like, oh, yeah, that's exactly how my life is right now.
• 13:25
  So maybe there's a lot that I can learn from this.
• 13:27
  So what did you discover about yourself when you started to do this, this introspection?
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  I discovered that I was over committing.
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  I was saying yes to too many things.
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  And the reason was I didn't want to feel like I was missing out.
• 13:44
  I didn't want to feel like I was missing opportunities.
• 13:46
  I had this like very powerful scarcity mindset just across the board.
• 13:52
  Professionally in my like personal relationship, in my, even in my marriage, in my friendships.
• 13:58
  Like I had this like scarcity mindset that was driving me.
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  And I was very afraid that I was going to miss out on something.
• 14:05
  I'm going to, I'm going to lose out an opportunity.
• 14:07
  I'm not doing the thing the right way.
• 14:10
  So that there was this fear of not being on the path.
• 14:13
  And that was really driving me to just constantly overcome it.
• 14:17
  And that's like this beginning of this, right?
• 14:19
  Like that's, that sets the foundation for you to constantly be on.
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  amazing gummies. That is sort of the classic definition of productivity.
• 15:34
  That's I think that's what a lot of people assume is productivity.
• 15:38
  So obviously that's not the best way to conduct your life and to go through life.
• 15:45
  And I think that a lot of people listen to this are similar to you and to me.
• 15:48
  They're all people that don't want to miss out.
• 15:51
  They say yes to everything until they can't, which is there's maybe there's a season for that
• 15:56
  in their life when they're when they're just starting out to get experience to expose
• 16:00
  themselves to more opportunities. But what does productivity actually look like?
• 16:04
  What is the great reimagining of what productivity should be for people?
• 16:09
  So currently our framework of productivity is more is more and more is better, right?
• 16:16
  So it's a lot of like quantity over quality.
• 16:19
  And the idea is if you can accomplish even a little bit more, it doesn't matter if it was like
• 16:28
  like a B plus, right? As long as you got it done.
• 16:31
  And to me, I wanted to kind of change in that I want productivity and rest to not be in
• 16:40
  opposition. So right now, resting and taking breaks is outside of productivity.
• 16:46
  You're productive and then you can earn rest. You're productive. You're on the hamster wheel and
• 16:50
  then you can, you know, be joyful and do something for the sake of fun. You have to earn it.
• 16:56
  So that's the first thing I really want people to reimagine is that resting and joy are actually
• 17:03
  a part of productivity. It's it's baked in the productivity system and it actually increases
• 17:10
  your productivity over time. It makes you more creative. You become a better decision maker.
• 17:16
  And it also keeps you while being balanced. So that's one thing. The other thing I want to
• 17:21
  kind of help people really tap into is intentionality in your productivity.
• 17:27
  So current productivity paradigm is here's a checklist of things that means you're productive
• 17:34
  and you just have to do it. And these are the goals you have to pursue because that's the life
• 17:38
  everybody has to live. And I want people to be a little bit more intentional about what they're
• 17:44
  pursuing. So that's like one of the hallmarks to me of toxic productivity is when you are pursuing
• 17:51
  something for the sake of the pursuit. But you don't really know why you want that thing.
• 17:56
  You don't know if you're even connected to the thing that you want. And I work with a lot of young
• 18:01
  people who really are just chasing these arbitrary goals because someone just told them they
• 18:09
  had to do it. Like their parents said it, they chose an industry where you have to meet a certain
• 18:14
  milestone or their friends are doing it. So I think like bringing some intentionality back into it
• 18:19
  is really important. What do you think drives that that setting of a North star that you haven't
• 18:26
  even thought through? Is it because you feel like your parents are putting pressure on you? Is it
• 18:32
  because people are trying to achieve a dollar value in their life? Is it because they listen to too
• 18:41
  much Gary Vee? Like what's the reason why people set these arbitrary North stars? Like what's the
• 18:48
  underlying root cause? Because I want people to understand where they're where their goals in
• 18:54
  life even come from. I don't want to sound like a cliche therapist, but it is the truth.
• 19:01
  Most of the foundations of our worldview is set by our origin caretaking family. So it doesn't
• 19:08
  always have to be your parents. It could be like an older sibling who sets the mental framework for
• 19:14
  you and the way they see their life or what they achieve. It could be a really close cousin.
• 19:21
  You might have an aunt or an uncle growing up. You were like, wow, that's how they live their
• 19:26
  life. That's what I want to do. And so I think the original formative years, when there are people
• 19:34
  who have a lot of influence on us, it shapes our worldview. So most of us learn that what is wanted,
• 19:41
  what the wanted identity is, is what I should be pursuing. Because we see in our original
• 19:48
  family or caretaking unit, even extending to like school, we see that those certain things are
• 19:55
  rewarded. We see that certain things, certain traits, certain qualities give you more acceptance
• 20:02
  and more belonging and more love. And so that really sets the stage for you to not even question
• 20:08
  what else you should do. And then of course, you do have the families that tell you what you have to
• 20:13
  do. For sure, like I know families where all the children are doctors, all the sons became
• 20:20
  engineers, right? And yeah, that's like a cultural thing for South Asians or Asians in general,
• 20:25
  for sure. But I see outside of Asian culture too, like I see it in the Latinx community, I see it,
• 20:31
  you know, in American culture as well. But that's something like some families will tell you,
• 20:37
  that's what you have to do. Other families, you just kind of learn it. But it does come from our
• 20:41
  formative years. So even looking at sort of the journey that you went through, I mean, you had
• 20:47
  these expectations that were placed on you as a kid. And you had to wrestle with the one thing
• 20:54
  that I love to do is all the work that you've put out into the world and you teach, I know that
• 21:00
  it comes from what you figured out yourself. And how you figured out how to navigate this sort of
• 21:06
  reimagining of what productivity looks like of what your personal North star should be. So maybe
• 21:12
  just walk me through your story. And when you came to that sort of realization that you didn't
• 21:18
  really even realize why you're doing the things that you're doing and why the your friend's perspective
• 21:24
  of you is so much different than your perspective of you. How do you start to how do you start to
• 21:29
  restructure your life? What are the what are the sort of the action steps that you take so that you
• 21:34
  do properly align with something you care about? And your friend's perception starts to align
• 21:38
  closer to what your own perception of your life was. Yeah. So my I mean, I was definitely
• 21:43
  raised to be an overachiever. And you know, I don't think that parents are ill intentioned when they
• 21:49
  do this. So that's that's not my messaging at all. I think, you know, parents do their best
• 21:55
  based on what their life experience has been, right? And as adults, it's our responsibility to
• 22:00
  then pull it apart and see what actually fits for us and what doesn't fit for us. But I was
• 22:05
  certainly raised in a very high activity home. You know, there's a lot a lot of movement happening.
• 22:13
  Resting was really not a part of my home culture. Whether it I mean, we used to have like a math
• 22:19
  tutor in the summer. We would go to Pakistan for a summer break and my mom like would get like a
• 22:26
  little tutor for us, like a kid in the neighborhood. If it wasn't that, it was some things that
• 22:31
  was like a sport. If it wasn't a sport, it was like classical music. If you know, it was there was
• 22:35
  always some kind of move. It was always always something something's happening all the time. And so
• 22:40
  because I actually never saw my parents chilling and hanging out, like I never saw my parents
• 22:44
  just lying on the couch or sleeping in or anything like that, or even take like a vacation where
• 22:49
  they're just hanging out. Like I've just never I never saw that. So I learned that life is about
• 22:55
  forward movement. Like that. So that became my Nord star. So it wasn't like I had a pressure to be
• 23:00
  a certain profession. But there was definitely like an underlying expectation that forward movement
• 23:07
  is the way to go. Like you just have to be in constant motion. And so a lot of my life was just
• 23:13
  in constant motion, like doing parallel things together. It wasn't enough to just have a job. Like
• 23:18
  you have to have a job. And you have to do your own thing, try to make an impact in the world
• 23:23
  and you have to have like a hobby and all of those things. But when I started realizing this disconnect,
• 23:30
  this disengagement that I was feeling and this kind of like listless board feeling because like
• 23:37
  nothing felt good and nothing felt good enough. The first thing after this audit that I did, the
• 23:43
  first thing I did is I sat down with a friend of mine and I said, let's just kind of talk about
• 23:49
  this, you know, because he would often hear me complain about feeling bad after leaving certain
• 23:55
  you know events or certain obligations. So he was he asked me, he was like, why do you keep
• 24:02
  going here if it makes you feel bad afterwards? And so it was like this conversation I needed to have
• 24:07
  and then I decided the first tactical thing I did was I started to under commit. I started to
• 24:16
  just say no to things. Even when it felt really scary. And that includes professional opportunities.
• 24:23
  That includes like speaking opportunities because I knew that I was it was not going to give me the
• 24:29
  return, but I had to really analyze like really get it in the mindset of being comfortable and
• 24:35
  saying no. And believing that better things will come my way. And that that was like a journey. It
• 24:40
  didn't happen in one week. But I think like that was like a very important tactical thing that
• 24:46
  somebody can do is to really just say no to one thing or say yes to one less thing. And I think
• 24:54
  that really helps us feel that the world will not end if you say no. Because that's the thing,
• 25:01
  you know, when you're in this fear based mindset, maybe you feel it too because you're you're like
• 25:06
  from a tech background and you're also an entrepreneur, you feel that the world will end if you don't
• 25:11
  get this thing, you know, sometimes yeah, which I you know, you know intuitively that's the most
• 25:17
  ridiculous thought, but you still feel it. And then you still forces you to say it forces you
• 25:23
  that's the wrong word. It still makes you want to say yes. And you do. Because the fear center is
• 25:30
  so powerful in our brain. And the fear center cannot tell a difference between a real or an
• 25:35
  imagined threat. So the brain cannot tell the difference between a real and imagined threat.
• 25:41
  That's why we jump in a movie because a brain think that's actually happening to you like in a
• 25:45
  in a in a scary movie. So you really have to retrain your brain, you know, and I had to do a lot
• 25:51
  of that. And it was it was a long and arduous process. Like I don't want to sit here and be like,
• 25:57
  oh, yeah, everything figured out like absolutely not. It was horrible and ugly and painful, but
• 26:03
  I needed to be done. I guess one of the more popular posts that you put up on on your Instagram,
• 26:08
  I thought was interesting. It was it's the first post. It's dopamine culture is taking over. So
• 26:14
  what do you mean by dopamine culture? Because I've heard of hustle culture. I've heard now of toxic
• 26:19
  productivity. I've heard of productivity. I've heard of all these different words. What does dopamine
• 26:25
  culture mean? Is it tied into all this? Absolutely. And I'm so glad you asked. You were like the first
• 26:29
  person to ask me this. I love talking about this. Well, I thought it was interesting. It's a concept
• 26:34
  I've never heard before. I mean, I've heard about hustle culture forever, but I think that dopamine
• 26:38
  culture, it brings it into the emotional component that you're talking about. And there's some
• 26:42
  science and there's some hormones that sort of play into this. And I think it's actually very
• 26:47
  important when you're teaching something to not make it seem like the person who is feeling this
• 26:52
  is deficient for some reason or they are they're feeling this just because they aren't as good as
• 26:59
  they could be or they aren't as they aren't the best version of themselves. That's incorrect. I
• 27:05
  mean, all these things that we teach and all the things that that we do in life are really just
• 27:12
  responses to our body and how we and how we're programmed and wired. So I think that when you go
• 27:17
  beneath the hood and you start to understand how like even like hormones like dopamine would impact
• 27:22
  your day in the life and your response to threats and perceived threats and opportunities
• 27:27
  and your work and your job. I think it just makes it a lot easier to understand because then we're
• 27:32
  aware of why we made these decisions. So I don't want somebody to listen to this and be like,
• 27:36
  I am toxicly productive, but maybe that means that I'm like maybe that means that I'm less than
• 27:43
  because that's not the case. It's just you don't understand and you're and you're not aware of how
• 27:47
  your body actually reacts. So you should be so that you can make better decisions, but just
• 27:52
  don't think that you're less than just because you're not quote unquote perfect or operating the
• 27:56
  way that that you're operating right now. And I think it's also the system we live in. Not only
• 28:02
  are we reacting to our internal system, we are also reacting to an external system like everywhere
• 28:08
  you look, even for me like any model I that I had of a successful woman was always a frazzled
• 28:14
  woman. She was always like running to places and like things are falling out of her bag,
• 28:19
  you know, and all those things. But that's a successful woman, right? And so it's also we are
• 28:25
  reacting to a system that is telling us to be this way. So it's certainly not an internal
• 28:30
  deficiency. And even I like still struggle with that. Like I think, you know, in the lead up to
• 28:35
  this book, like I am in a season of not being like my most healthy self when it comes to,
• 28:40
  you know, productivity right now. You're just taking a red eye. Yeah, exactly. And you know,
• 28:47
  and I have like two interviews and an event today like to facilitate. But the thing is like that
• 28:53
  the what makes it better than before is that I'm aware of it. And I have an end time to it. Like
• 29:00
  I'm like, you know what, this is a season. I'm just going to go through it. I have four more weeks
• 29:05
  and then it's done. Then I'm then I'm going to not worry about this. But to your point about
• 29:11
  dopamine culture. So dopamine. So hustle culture is this idea that we have to constantly be hustling
• 29:16
  to get things, right? Dopamine culture is this like added layer to hustle culture, which adds
• 29:21
  a layer of urgency to it. So hustle culture inherently has a lot of urgency that we got to get
• 29:27
  thing, you know, move fast, break fast, learn fast like that mentality. But dopamine culture is how
• 29:34
  our technology and our system has tapped into the way our brain works. And what that's done is
• 29:41
  so we are, you know, we are driven by dopamine. We want to get a lot of dopamine because it makes us
• 29:45
  feel good. Technology has made it so that we can get that hit really fast. So everything has become
• 29:51
  extremely urgent. So we live in a in a culture of extreme urgency. And when everything feels urgent,
• 29:59
  everything feels important. And what we end up doing is we end up giving the same amount of
• 30:05
  effort to everything without prioritizing. So we see a notification on our news app, our email
• 30:13
  and our personal text, right? The priority of those three things is different. Your personal
• 30:19
  text is a little bit more important because it's like somebody I know, right? The news app maybe
• 30:23
  is not that important because like maybe it's not that relevant to you or you're not going to achieve
• 30:29
  anything by immediately finding out what's going on in the world, right? And then you've got like
• 30:34
  social media, right? So instead of prioritizing it and giving different amounts of energy to each,
• 30:41
  we end up giving the same to everything because urgency culture and the way notifications are set
• 30:46
  up, they're set up to tap into the way our brain actually process information, right? There's a
• 30:51
  so we get the same chemical response. Yeah. And so that's why we get very activated. And so dopamine
• 30:58
  culture keeps you in a perpetual state of fight or flight. Just perpetually your system is on.
• 31:06
  And that's why people are eating poorly. They don't sleep well. Like all of the systems are off
• 31:12
  internally. And what do we want to do? We want to feel good. So the brain knows if I do this thing,
• 31:18
  I'm going to immediately feel good. So you just kind of keep doing it over and over again.
• 31:23
  And the biggest thing that we lose when we are urgent and non-prioritized is depth.
• 31:31
  We lose depth in our conversations. We lose depth in our connections. We lose depth in our
• 31:36
  understanding. People only read headlines now. They don't actually read the rest of the article.
• 31:43
  So we lose a lot of depth. And over time that, you know, if you want to bring it back to productivity,
• 31:48
  if you continue to do things that lack depth, your end outcome is going to be poor. The result
• 31:55
  is going to be poor. And so I think it's really important to slow down our process.
• 32:01
  I just want to take a quick break and thank the HubSpot podcast network for supporting success
• 32:04
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• 32:47
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• 32:51
  connection quite clearly though. So when you are you are the sort of the victim of this dopamine
• 32:58
  culture, that's the best way to put it because you all these apps and all these tools they've
• 33:04
  all optimized so that they give you these quick dopamine hits. So when you're doing that non-stop
• 33:08
  and you don't have that prioritization, this is how productivity becomes toxic because you're
• 33:14
  trying to do all the dopamine inducing things while simultaneous doing all the actual urgent
• 33:20
  important things. You're trying to fit it all all the time into every single day and then this is
• 33:24
  where I'm assuming there's like at some point this is where burnout or this is where just
• 33:30
  really poor health comes into play. Yeah, you're always on right? So you're perpetually on and when
• 33:35
  you're perpetually on and you're always taking in information, it's very natural for you then tap
• 33:44
  into the other emotional dynamics that impact productivity in an unhealthy way, which is comparing
• 33:50
  yourself to other people. If you're constantly getting information about other people and it's
• 33:55
  making you feel like, oh, I'm not doing enough, so you're going to compare yourself. You might say,
• 34:00
  I'm not doing this well enough and you might tap into this like anxiety induced perfectionism,
• 34:05
  right? You might start feeling ashamed about, hey, why can't I do this? They can do it and so it
• 34:12
  all just becomes like a very cyclical thing and I write about these concepts as discrete chapters
• 34:21
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• 34:28
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• 34:54
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• 36:09
  So it almost becomes this really toxic flywheel that all feeds into each other. It's fascinating.
• 36:16
  Another hormone. So I've heard you speak about this before and I'm interested. So you've spoken
• 36:22
  about always being rushed and having an addiction to stress hormones. So and I guess the argument
• 36:32
  that people would make is I work better under stress or I work better when I'm on or something
• 36:37
  along those lines. So which stress hormone is that that's not cortisol. Is there another stress
• 36:43
  hormone that that we get addicted to or is there how does that how does why would we get addicted
• 36:48
  to stress hormones at all. And why do people feel like if they're under stress, they work better.
• 36:54
  Yeah. So the stress hormones are cortisol epinephrine or epinephrine at your adrenal system.
• 37:01
  And as addiction is not necessarily like a true addiction in the way that we can get addicted to
• 37:05
  other substances, but it is like addiction light. Right. Like it's a milder form of needing this
• 37:14
  system to be very active because in the absence of that, you might feel like something is wrong.
• 37:21
  Right. So the people who say, and I used to be like that, oh my gosh, I'd be like, oh my god,
• 37:25
  I write my best like in school. I write my best essays two nights before. Like I just might
• 37:30
  better. But the reality is you're procrastinating because you're anxious. You're anxious because
• 37:36
  you feel like it's not going to be good enough. And so what happens is in the rush, in the blinding
• 37:41
  rush of a deadline when your body is just flooded with all these hormones, you don't have time to think
• 37:47
  about that anxiety. So you push through the anxiety and maybe your work is good because it's not
• 37:52
  riddled by anxiety. But the only way you can tap into that mindset, the only way you can quiet the
• 37:58
  anxiety is if you are in that time crunch. And I think that's the piece people think makes them
• 38:04
  better workers is because they're literally, they're fighting on the front line so they don't have
• 38:09
  anything else to think about. And imagine if I had done that while writing this book, it would not
• 38:17
  have been possible to end deadline write a 60,000 word book, right? And so that's the truth is that
• 38:27
  you really have to learn to manage your emotion so that you can do good work without making
• 38:32
  yourself unhealthy. The second part of your question was like, why do we get addicted to it?
• 38:37
  Yes, yes. So I don't necessarily think that it's like a true, like I said, like it's not a true
• 38:42
  addiction mechanism in your brain. But what I do notice, both in myself and people I've worked with
• 38:47
  and in some of the readings is the absence of stress starts feeling scary for people. You know,
• 38:54
  you start feeling like I'm forgetting something. I didn't do something right because you're so
• 39:00
  your norm has become this state of anxiety and state of heightened like stress. So when you're not
• 39:07
  stressed or like something is wrong, there's something wrong, like I should be stressed. And that
• 39:11
  kind of activates the mind that I need to be, I need to feel stressed to feel like I'm being productive.
• 39:17
  So I would assume that a lot of this, so for a high achiever, a lot of their personality is
• 39:24
  wrapped up in these feelings because that's how they feel like they've gotten to where they are.
• 39:30
  I was always stressed, I was always on, but I always performed and I always sort of got the
• 39:35
  outcome that I wanted. But then this, this toxic productivity becomes, it becomes who you are.
• 39:42
  It becomes, it becomes you. It becomes your identity. So what would be your advice for somebody
• 39:48
  who is that avatar, who I think there's a lot of people that are that avatar. And again,
• 39:54
  there's people that are that avatar for a period of their week. There's a people who are that
• 39:58
  avatar for years of their life. What would be your best advice is start to
• 40:05
  remove that identity from, or maybe or reimagine a better identity because I think that that's
• 40:11
  something that can help a lot of people so that they don't so closely attribute stress and productivity
• 40:17
  and hustle culture to who they are as a person. That's a really great question. And I want to say that
• 40:24
  this is something that I definitely struggle with as well, is I used to very firmly believe that
• 40:31
  if I wasn't stressed out, then I'm not an ambitious person. I thought that if you are ambitious,
• 40:37
  the truth is, this was my truth, that if I'm ambitious, then I have to be stressed out because
• 40:43
  people who are not stressed out are just coasting through life. So we developed this very unhealthy
• 40:49
  relationship with stress as well. And we stress ourselves out in order to feel like we're doing
• 40:54
  something productive. So to people who are kind of like stuck in this mindset, I mean, there's
• 41:00
  two types of people, right? Some people firmly believe that this is a good thing and moving the
• 41:05
  needle for them is much harder, right? Because you have to kind of show them that this is actually
• 41:10
  causing a deficit in your life in some way. And a good entry point to that for somebody who is
• 41:17
  like really in the throes of it is to reconnect them with their body. So when we are hyperproductive,
• 41:25
  we're hyper optimized, we're like just doing, doing, doing, we kind of disconnect ourselves from
• 41:30
  our body. And so we don't realize when our body feels bad, when it feels good, when things are
• 41:36
  comfortable, when things are uncomfortable, we are just very disconnected. I mean, I know some
• 41:42
  people who don't even feel hunger, like they can work through the day and they don't feel hunger.
• 41:48
  And there's nothing wrong. And they're like, you know, systems in the mind that is supposed to
• 41:54
  identify it, but you kind of train yourself out of it. I worked with somebody who said that they
• 41:59
  could control their body functions, so go into the bathroom and stuff like that in times of high
• 42:05
  stress. Like, yeah, right? Super high achieving person. But you know, they just that was like this feeling
• 42:15
  that they had of like total control. But the reality is they were just disconnected from their body.
• 42:20
  So I would say reconnect with your body in some way. Whether that means just observing how your
• 42:27
  body feels in certain times of the day, you can do a mindfulness meditation, but you don't have to.
• 42:34
  It can be like like an exercise, dance, anything that puts you back in your body. Because I think
• 42:42
  that that will tip you off to when you start feeling bad. And when you notice that you feel bad
• 42:48
  enough times, you will be encouraged to look at why you feel bad, right? Like it just it'll take
• 42:56
  it might take two months, it might take three months. But once you start noticing where you start
• 43:00
  feeling bad, where your body feels like anxious or stressed or anything like that, over time,
• 43:06
  it gets hard to ignore. And then you will say, wait, I don't want to feel like this. You know,
• 43:11
  what needs to change? For other people whose identity is very infused with this with this mindset,
• 43:20
  what happens is so in toxic productivity, three things happen, right? One is you become singularly
• 43:26
  focused on outcomes. Two is everything else becomes secondary to that outcome. And three is how
• 43:33
  you feel about yourself becomes contingent on the outcome. So these three things are happening
• 43:38
  in this like toxic productivity bubble. So I would say to diversify your life, when we become
• 43:45
  singularly focused on outcome, only everything else becomes unimportant. So to people who are really
• 43:52
  struggling with the singular identity, I would ask them to diversify their life. See if you could
• 43:58
  add more things to your life that have nothing to do with outcome and productivity. See if you can
• 44:03
  hang out with your friends just for the sake of hanging out, not doing anything, not going to a
• 44:08
  concert, not going to like a Michelin star, you know, nothing like that, like just sitting and
• 44:14
  hanging out with your friends. See if you can engage in a hobby that has no purpose, except for you
• 44:21
  doing the thing. Like that way, you can start to see that you are more than your outcomes.
• 44:28
  Unfortunately, people who are really trapped in this don't actually know who they are outside of
• 44:33
  outcome and achievement. I certainly didn't and I still struggle with that, right? Like it's
• 44:38
  really hard for me to sometimes reframe myself. I wrote a whole book on it, but human beings are
• 44:42
  human beings, right? Like it's hard. It's hard to tap out of the mindset. But once you see it,
• 44:48
  you can't unsee it. Well, I was going to say and also the extreme version of this is when
• 44:53
  your achievement is so tied into your self-worth and your value that if you do feel off,
• 45:00
  you start to self-medicate or you, I mean, it's like an extra coffee or I mean,
• 45:05
  there's a lot of other things that people do to get through a day and be at their top peak performance.
• 45:11
  You can't sleep. So you're either drinking or you're taking melatonin or you're taking
• 45:15
  something before bed because you're so wired from whatever you took through the day to stay on.
• 45:20
  So then it starts to really, I mean, there's health impacts even if you didn't have all these
• 45:25
  additional horrible things going into your body. But to sort of I assume numb that feeling of
• 45:33
  oh, my body keeps crashing at four or five. Well, you just include some more substances into your
• 45:38
  daily routine. All of a sudden, well, I can keep going for an extra three or four hours.
• 45:43
  Yeah. And I'm sure that you see this a lot with people that are these high achievers.
• 45:47
  Yeah. And then also like as you're doing that, as you're manipulating your body to, you know,
• 45:54
  bend to your will instead of connecting with your body and recognizing that your body has its
• 45:59
  own rhythm, you are also isolating yourself from community, right? People who really get trapped
• 46:05
  in productivity mindset will even prune their friendships in order to see who is the most
• 46:14
  relevant to their outcome. So I've seen this happen over time. Just even in my personal life,
• 46:20
  I've seen this happen with people is they'll stop hanging out with old friends because they don't
• 46:26
  have the same lifestyle or the same ambitions or the same goals, right? Because there's this idea
• 46:31
  that you have to constantly surround yourself with people whose average you can become. And so
• 46:36
  our relationships become transactional and we become lonelier. And what do you do when you become
• 46:41
  lonely? You self-medicate, right? So it is honestly like, yes, it's like a productivity book, but it's
• 46:49
  not because I think these habits actually impact our true core humanity. It takes us away from the
• 46:58
  things that make us human, which is joy and rest and connection and community. And yes, productivity,
• 47:04
  right? All of these things have to happen, not just productivity. One thing that you spoke about in
• 47:09
  the book was being rather than doing. Can you explain that concept? When we are doing, we are
• 47:16
  outcome-oriented. And that can be in anything. So it can be in romantic relationships. You can
• 47:22
  really put like a milestone to it and you're measuring. Anytime you're measuring something,
• 47:27
  you are doing. So you see this lot a lot in the wellness space now. People are biohacking and
• 47:32
  like measuring all the things in their body. And what that does is it puts you on like an action,
• 47:39
  right? It puts you on this like path of action. Being on the other hand is literally connecting
• 47:46
  with your senses and the present moment that you are in. And there is no outcome related to it.
• 47:53
  So what does this look like? Get an example, for instance, you can eat your food and really measure
• 48:01
  everything that's going in your body, measure the macros or the microbes or whatever else people do,
• 48:08
  right? You can do that. And that that act of nourishing your body has now become an action
• 48:15
  that you're measuring progress. You feel like it's good and it's bad, it's dirty and it's clean,
• 48:20
  right? Or you could mindfully eat and you could maybe have some music playing, maybe you don't,
• 48:27
  but you are just enjoying the food, appreciating the textures, remembering like a good meal that you
• 48:32
  had that was similar, just kind of like exploring the moment that you are in. And that will be so
• 48:39
  much more nourishing than doing the measurement-based food. And now I'm not against measurement-based food,
• 48:45
  I think there's a lot of value to it. But I know people whose whole lives are like that and they
• 48:52
  are not very happy. They're kind of miserable because they're always assessing whether they ate
• 49:00
  good or bad, whether it was good enough or not, right? It's like this, like, so that's the
• 49:05
  difference between being and doing. But that's by the way, that lesson, yeah, we're talking about
• 49:10
  food, but apply that to your business. Like when you're doing the task, okay, you can do like an
• 49:15
  urgent, important eyes and how our matrix figure out what you got to do for your business, but when
• 49:19
  you're doing the task, like, is it giving you energy? Is it making you feel like you hate your life?
• 49:24
  Like, you should figure out the things that you do in a day to day. Are they, are they things that
• 49:28
  actually serve you? And I mean, there's things that I do that I enjoy doing, like, I enjoy this
• 49:33
  interview and you can't really replace that when you run a podcast. But there's a lot of pieces to
• 49:37
  a podcast that I don't enjoy doing that at some points I would do, but maybe those are things
• 49:41
  that you can outsource or that you can train somebody else on. I mean, I just think being, I love
• 49:46
  that being instead of doing an understanding what you actually enjoy doing is going to make you
• 49:53
  ironically much more productive than just doing all the things without paying attention to it.
• 49:57
  Absolutely. 100% agree because that creates a filter, right? If you know your values, if you know
• 50:04
  you're good at that's why like intention is so important for me. If you have that intention,
• 50:08
  it literally acts like a filter. It filters out the unnecessary stuff and you realize that
• 50:12
  somebody else can do this or maybe you don't even need to do it at all. Like, I was doing some
• 50:16
  stuff as part of my business at some point. And I was like, this I actually don't need to be doing
• 50:22
  like I don't have to do this. You know, and I just took it off. I and I have no regrets.
• 50:28
  I love it. If you wanted people to take one thing away from the book, what would that be?
• 50:34
  The one thing I want people to take away from this book is that our emotions are like messages.
• 50:39
  They are messengers. They are telling us something. But in this culture that we're in, emotions
• 50:45
  are often vilified or we're very divorced from them. And I would want people to kind of become
• 50:51
  introspective and connect with their emotions and learn the message that your emotions are giving
• 50:56
  you so that you can leverage it. So you can harness the powers and you can understand yourself so
• 51:01
  much better. That's the that's like my biggest takeaway because I'm a therapist and I do this work
• 51:06
  all day long of building emotional intelligence and emotional awareness. And we just live so much
• 51:14
  happier. We are lies. We come so much richer when we understand our emotions and we can manage
• 51:20
  the difficult ones. We don't have to run away from them. And the second small like part B, I would
• 51:25
  say to this is this book is an entry point into like a potential for change. I don't think we
• 51:33
  should ever go into reading a book or going listening to a podcast and think that it's this is a
• 51:39
  thing that's going to change my life. It will not. You don't even have to read the whole book,
• 51:43
  frankly, just pick the pieces that are important for you. But let this be an entry point. Let this
• 51:50
  be like a gateway for you to get to know yourself a little bit better. Like that's my biggest role.
• 51:54
  If people want to connect with you because the book's going to be on Amazon, I'm sure it's
• 51:58
  everywhere you can buy books. We'll put that in the show notes. Where else do you want to send
• 52:02
  people? Socials? Is there a website you want to send people to? Yes. So my website is my full name
• 52:06
  is trinaster.com. It has everything. It also has a bunch of resources that go along with this book
• 52:12
  like downloadables. And I do a lot of speaking. So if you're looking for a speaker like that's where
• 52:17
  you get the information as well. So my website really is the place where you can get all the info.
• 52:22
  Okay. And then you have all your socials there too. Yes. I do have my socials.
• 52:24
  Exactly. Yeah. Last question I like to ask everybody. As even you've gone through many seasons
• 52:31
  in your own life, if you could go back and tell your 20 year old self one thing, what would that be?
• 52:35
  Things don't have to move fast. Like there's a lot of value in moving slowly as well. And knowing
• 52:42
  the difference between those two things is key. For me, everything was fast. But some things are
• 52:47
  better when they're slower. That's what I would say to them.