Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / DEAD ON VACATION: Beloved public defender strangled at exclusive resort, body discarded in bushes.

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DEAD ON VACATION: Beloved public defender strangled at exclusive resort, body discarded in bushes. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. An American mother goes on
0:15
Speaker 1: a dream vacation to Turks and Caicos at a Club
0:19
Speaker 1: Med and ends up dead as everyone takes off for
0:24
Speaker 1: summer holidays. This is certainly a cautionary tale, a tell
0:28
Speaker 1: too which there have been no real answers. Crime Stories
0:40
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. It began as a week away in
0:48
Speaker 1: paradise for three hard working Suffolk County Legal aid attorneys.
0:52
Speaker 1: It was just like a bad dream. It was like
0:54
Speaker 1: it was a real The pain still so fresh for
0:57
Speaker 1: Marie Cools's closest friends A year after the long island
1:01
Speaker 1: wife and mother disappeared at the popular Club Bet Turks
1:04
Speaker 1: and Caicos resort. A few days into the trip, Marie
1:07
Speaker 1: decided to take a break from the pool and come
1:10
Speaker 1: here to her room to take a nap. She never
1:13
Speaker 1: showed up for dinner. A dream vacation at Turks and
1:16
Speaker 1: Keikos turns to murder. How did that happen? And another thing?
1:20
Speaker 1: When you think of Club Med, I think high end, exclusive,
1:26
Speaker 1: fancy gated community, gotta be right on the beach, and
1:32
Speaker 1: Turks and Keikos has beautiful beaches, so how in an
1:36
Speaker 1: island paradise. Does a mom an American who's on a
1:41
Speaker 1: getaway with her girlfriends from work end up murdered? With
1:44
Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of it all?
1:47
Speaker 1: Abe George, high profile lawyer joining us out of New York.
1:52
Speaker 1: At Abe George dot lawyer he represents her family. Doctor
1:58
Speaker 1: Jory Crossen, psychologist, ADJUCT faculty Saint Leo's and author of
2:05
Speaker 1: Operation SOS Practical Recommendations to stop Officers suicide. Doctor Todd M. Barr,
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Speaker 1: Deputy medical Examiner forensic Pathologists joining us out of Cleveland.
2:18
Speaker 1: Former police chief, now twenty five years under his belt
2:22
Speaker 1: as police officer. You can find him at Chris Buyer's
2:25
Speaker 1: Investigations and polygraph dot com. Special guests joining us in
2:29
Speaker 1: addition to Abe George is Sarah Wallace, investigative reporter with
2:33
Speaker 1: NBC four nineteen Emmy Awards And you're about to find
2:39
Speaker 1: out why, guys, you were just hearing our friends at
2:44
Speaker 1: NBC four And now let's go to Sarah Wallace. Sarah,
2:49
Speaker 1: this woman, Marie Chunla was beloved an American mom, and
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Speaker 1: not only that, she devoted her career helping underprivileged people
3:02
Speaker 1: that need a lawyer. As a public defender. That is
3:06
Speaker 1: not an easy job at all. No, it's one of
3:09
Speaker 1: the toughest job. And she worked for Legal Aid in
3:12
Speaker 1: Suffolk County, which is that on Long Island, and she
3:15
Speaker 1: and her two friends and the daughter of one of
3:18
Speaker 1: those friends, decided to take a dream vacation. You know,
3:21
Speaker 1: you go, Nancy, you do probably you go with your
3:23
Speaker 1: girlfriend for a getaway. And that's what they did. And
3:27
Speaker 1: they thought that Club Med was safe. It's known to
3:30
Speaker 1: be by the most famous, well yeah, in the world
3:33
Speaker 1: because when you look up Club Mad. Have you ever
3:35
Speaker 1: looked at their advertisements online, it's paradise. When you look
3:39
Speaker 1: up Club Mad, all inclusive escapes and they really push exclusivity, vacation,
3:49
Speaker 1: start planning, now, flexibility, all the different resorts. They've got
3:54
Speaker 1: resorts all over the world. Now, the one we're talking
3:56
Speaker 1: about is the Club Mad at Turks and Caicos. Tell
4:00
Speaker 1: me about that one. Well, it's known to be a
4:02
Speaker 1: beach paradise. And one of the things that I think
4:04
Speaker 1: when people do go to a Club Med is the
4:07
Speaker 1: name stands for something and you think it's going to
4:10
Speaker 1: be secure, and Americans flop to that location. It's one
4:14
Speaker 1: of the most popular in the world. I have actually
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Speaker 1: been there previously to my investigation years ago, and it
4:20
Speaker 1: is spectacular. It's beautiful that beaches are gorgeous. People go
4:24
Speaker 1: to have fun, and they certainly don't go thinking that
4:28
Speaker 1: something horrible is going to happen. Okay, I've got to
4:31
Speaker 1: tell you. I peaked online exclusive resort on an award
4:39
Speaker 1: winning beach. Come discover a newly redesigned Club med Turquoise.
4:44
Speaker 1: I get it. Play on the words Turks and Keikos,
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Speaker 1: all inclusive paradise. Couples and friends learn what it means
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Speaker 1: to truly disconnect luxury, to do it all or nothing
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Speaker 1: at all, making this the perfect destiny, action packed or
5:02
Speaker 1: romantic getaway. It goes on and on, and the pictures
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Speaker 1: they're stunning. It doesn't even look real. The water is
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Speaker 1: so turquoise and in spots completely clear, you can see
5:16
Speaker 1: right down to the bottom. Guys were talking about an
5:18
Speaker 1: American mom that goes on a dream vacation at Turks
5:22
Speaker 1: and Kikos Club Med and ends up not just dead,
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Speaker 1: but murdered. Take a listen to our friends At ABC seven.
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Speaker 1: Marie Kunla and her friends had been having a great
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Speaker 1: girls getaway at Club Med in Turks and kikos. She
5:36
Speaker 1: was having the time of her life. She really was.
5:38
Speaker 1: She kept saying to me, this is the best vacation.
5:40
Speaker 1: Kuonla's friends, Kim Nohilly and Helma Hermann's were on the
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Speaker 1: trip with kuon La and see. The last time they
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Speaker 1: saw Kuonla was Sunday, October fourteenth, a few days after
5:50
Speaker 1: being at the resort. Saw her around six thirty on
5:53
Speaker 1: Sunday and she went to lay down and take a nap.
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Speaker 1: Seven o'clock the next morning, I was banging on her
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Speaker 1: door for a while and she wasn't answering, which is
6:04
Speaker 1: really weird from what we know. Back to you, Sarah Wallace,
6:07
Speaker 1: what was her personality? I mean, it wasn't unusual at
6:10
Speaker 1: all that she wanted to go to her room and
6:13
Speaker 1: not go to dinner with everyone. Was she a quiet person?
6:16
Speaker 1: I think she was quiet. Her friends describe her as
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Speaker 1: just being but very good natured, and she had met
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Speaker 1: a lot of people at the pool. It's not unnatural,
6:26
Speaker 1: you know, if you've been at the pool all day
6:28
Speaker 1: long that you go to take a nap, maybe before dinner.
6:31
Speaker 1: And maybe she just didn't want to go to dinner,
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Speaker 1: and she thought she was just going to rest in
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Speaker 1: her room. But the next morning, that's when her friends
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Speaker 1: became alarmed because she didn't show up the breakfast and
6:42
Speaker 1: they flagged security right then they notified the desk that
6:47
Speaker 1: she right now hold on, I'll find that really interesting, guys,
6:51
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, who's joining me from NBC four New York's
6:54
Speaker 1: Eye Team. That's really interesting because in the legal bit
7:00
Speaker 1: as we call that routine behavior routine evidence, not that
7:05
Speaker 1: it is run of the mill evidence, but it is
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Speaker 1: evidence of routine or evidence of routine behavior. When this
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Speaker 1: woman did not show up to breakfast and they go
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Speaker 1: to her room at bam on the door and she
7:19
Speaker 1: doesn't come by knowing her so well, so intimately her friends,
7:24
Speaker 1: they're at legal aid, knew something was wrong. And I
7:28
Speaker 1: want to go out to you, Abe George, new York
7:31
Speaker 1: City attorney who was representing the Kula family. That is
7:35
Speaker 1: admissible and all sorts of trials, particularly we've used it
7:39
Speaker 1: in criminal trials. So they knew when she didn't answer
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Speaker 1: the door and she didn't show up for breakfast, something
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Speaker 1: was wrong, right, yes, Nancy. And just the night before
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Speaker 1: one of Marie's friends, Alma, wiled to complaint at the
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Speaker 1: desk at Club mad seeing that there was an individual
7:57
Speaker 1: who was a problem to their group. You were just
7:59
Speaker 1: hearing our friends at NBC for New York. Now take
8:02
Speaker 1: a listen to Kristen Thorne at ABC seventy York. No.
8:07
Speaker 1: Hilly and Herman's immediately reported the Lantall resident missing, but
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Speaker 1: say they didn't get much help at first from resort's staff,
8:13
Speaker 1: so they went searching for Kunla themselves. It was my
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Speaker 1: daughter who found the body, not the police. That was
8:19
Speaker 1: early Tuesday morning. Kunla's body was lying in bushes on
8:23
Speaker 1: the edge of the Club Med resort. Her friends the
8:26
Speaker 1: authorities told them Kunla had been strangled. You know, to
8:31
Speaker 1: doctor Todd M. Barr, deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologists joining
8:36
Speaker 1: us out of Cleveland, thank you for being with us.
8:39
Speaker 1: When you hear strangled or asphyxiated, that sounds kind of benign,
8:48
Speaker 1: it's almost euphemistic. But when you see a violence strangling,
8:53
Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Barr, I've seen strangling square The victim's
8:58
Speaker 1: throat was about the size of the opening of a
9:02
Speaker 1: mason jar. Because the victim has been strangled so violently,
9:07
Speaker 1: it's just completely unnatural. So when you say that you
9:12
Speaker 1: happen upon a victim that has been strangled dead. That
9:16
Speaker 1: is a site that you'll never forget, especially as a civilian. Absolutely,
9:22
Speaker 1: how is it that a human neck give me strangle
9:26
Speaker 1: down to that size? Well, there's a lot of soft
9:29
Speaker 1: tissue in the neck and there's a lot of flexibility
9:34
Speaker 1: in the neck that can be compressed. Um. One of
9:37
Speaker 1: the things that I would like to know. I believe
9:40
Speaker 1: that it was called a manual strangulation, which is different
9:42
Speaker 1: than aspicia Bio Time Stories with Nancy Grace to Sarah Wallace,
10:03
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with NBC four New York's it Aim tell
10:07
Speaker 1: me about the friend finding her, Well, they discovered her
10:11
Speaker 1: body in a clump of bushes, and we went down
10:14
Speaker 1: to Club Med because we wanted to see the location
10:18
Speaker 1: for ourselves because, first of all, when they talked about it,
10:21
Speaker 1: originally they said her body was found near the Club
10:25
Speaker 1: Med resort. That's what the Island too said that, Sarah.
10:29
Speaker 1: The Island police put that out on their Facebook page
10:32
Speaker 1: that her body had been found near the Club Med resort.
10:36
Speaker 1: When I spoke with her two friends, they made it
10:39
Speaker 1: very clear that no her body was found on the property,
10:43
Speaker 1: and we went down to take a look for ourselves
10:46
Speaker 1: to see the exact location. You know, Nancy, you want
10:49
Speaker 1: to do that. You want to walk the crime scene
10:50
Speaker 1: and get a sense of where everything is yourself as
10:53
Speaker 1: an investigator. What struck me is that she was found
10:57
Speaker 1: in a remote location of the property on the Sandy
11:02
Speaker 1: Dirt Road and outcrossing of the Sandy Dirt Road that
11:05
Speaker 1: leads to the staff housing. In my mind, there is
11:09
Speaker 1: no way that Marie Kunla walked to that location. It's
11:14
Speaker 1: my belief that she was probably jumped there out of
11:17
Speaker 1: a car or some kind of vehicle. Her sandal was
11:22
Speaker 1: found about one hundred yards down the road on another
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Speaker 1: fork of the road that actually leads to the outer
11:29
Speaker 1: gate of the property. Hold on. I want to follow
11:31
Speaker 1: up on what you're just saying, Sarah, because I find
11:33
Speaker 1: it really significant, and I want to go to Chris
11:37
Speaker 1: Buyer's former police chief, John's Creek. Sarah's right think about it.
11:42
Speaker 1: And I don't know if this is going to be
11:43
Speaker 1: the same with you, Chris, But as a jogger, a
11:48
Speaker 1: female jogger, I would be careful When I was thinking clearly,
11:52
Speaker 1: why with all the beautiful trails and the roads and
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Speaker 1: places you could go there at Turks and Cacos club ed.
12:00
Speaker 1: Would you go up a path, a dirt path, going
12:04
Speaker 1: up to let's just say the maintenance facilities or the
12:09
Speaker 1: employee maintenance area. Why would you do that? I don't
12:14
Speaker 1: think that you would go off by yourself sandals, not jogging,
12:20
Speaker 1: not going for a walk, and instead of going on
12:23
Speaker 1: all the routes they have for you, go up and
12:25
Speaker 1: wander around the facilities and maintenance. That doesn't make sense
12:29
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, there's absolutely no reason for that. You're
12:32
Speaker 1: paying the price for those beaches that we just talked about,
12:35
Speaker 1: for all of the infrastructure there. It's that beautiful resort.
12:40
Speaker 1: You're not going to be off on these paths. It
12:42
Speaker 1: sounds to me like she was dumped there by somebody
12:46
Speaker 1: that knew exactly where they were at and a george
12:49
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of New York. Abe.
12:53
Speaker 1: This adds another layer to the murder. It's not just
12:57
Speaker 1: that somebody murdered her, It's that someone dragged her to
13:00
Speaker 1: that location and murdered her or murdered her and then
13:04
Speaker 1: disposed of her body there. That adds another layer to
13:07
Speaker 1: the murder. Yeah, and this was a manual strangulation and
13:10
Speaker 1: I'm sure doctor bar will provide some insight as to
13:14
Speaker 1: why that's significant. So doctor Todd M. Barr joining us
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Speaker 1: out of Cleveland. Manual strangulation, Why does that make a
13:21
Speaker 1: difference in your mind? Doctor, Well, when you have a
13:25
Speaker 1: hanging or a ligature, typically you'd have a ligature mark
13:29
Speaker 1: left on the outside surface of the skin. And with
13:32
Speaker 1: a manual strangulation, if it's done from the front and
13:36
Speaker 1: the thumbs are compressing the neck from the front, you
13:40
Speaker 1: typically will get a broken hyoid bone, which is the
13:43
Speaker 1: bone that is at the floor of the mouth. Also,
13:47
Speaker 1: the tricheal cartilage and the cricoid cartilage are also in
13:51
Speaker 1: that same vicinity. So if there's compression coming upon the
13:56
Speaker 1: neck with the hands wrapped around the neck and the
13:58
Speaker 1: thumbs are directing that pressure, you get these typical findings
14:02
Speaker 1: in an autosopy. So, if the purp is strangling her
14:05
Speaker 1: while looking her in the eyes, like, the thumbs will
14:09
Speaker 1: be over the highoid with the fingertips in the back.
14:13
Speaker 1: If you are attacked from behind, the thumbs will be
14:16
Speaker 1: at the back exerting pressure and the fingers on the front.
14:21
Speaker 1: And you know what I find interesting about that too.
14:23
Speaker 1: Psychologist faculty at Saint Leo. Author doctor Jerry Crawlson is
14:29
Speaker 1: that I've referred to these and knife things as sweetheart murders,
14:35
Speaker 1: not that there's anything sweet about them, but you are
14:38
Speaker 1: up close and intimate to your victim when you are
14:41
Speaker 1: murdering them. He could have very well been looking her
14:44
Speaker 1: in the eyes at the time he strangled her dead,
14:48
Speaker 1: which is an entirely a scary and shocking element of
14:55
Speaker 1: this crime. That type of attack is very personal, and
14:58
Speaker 1: especially if there's you know, anger, aggression, rage, this is
15:03
Speaker 1: the perfect type of attack that there's these individuals use.
15:07
Speaker 1: They want to be close, they want to see the terror,
15:10
Speaker 1: they want to experience that that drives that force even
15:15
Speaker 1: more on the choking. So yeah, this is a very
15:18
Speaker 1: personal attack. And I find it really interesting what Sarah
15:22
Speaker 1: Wallace told us from NBC for New York that the
15:27
Speaker 1: Island Police. I guess we're told by Club Med that
15:30
Speaker 1: her body was found near Club Med grounds, not on
15:34
Speaker 1: Club Med grounds. Why was that a George. Everything that
15:38
Speaker 1: Clubmed has been doing since the investigation of this case
15:41
Speaker 1: has been trying to attenuate the murder from their property
15:45
Speaker 1: and Nancy. This even comes down to the corporate shell
15:48
Speaker 1: game that Clubmed please in terms of the different legal
15:52
Speaker 1: entities that are set up that tourists don't know about.
15:55
Speaker 1: You assume that, hey, you're going to Club Med, you're
15:57
Speaker 1: staying at Club Med. But club Med is to read
16:00
Speaker 1: five corporate shells just to insure themselves against civil liability
16:05
Speaker 1: that if something happens to you, you've got nowhere to
16:09
Speaker 1: turn to. But what we're doing is slowly unfolding those
16:11
Speaker 1: shells to show that Clubbed has been responsible for everything
16:15
Speaker 1: that happens on its property. Guys, take a listen to Sarah,
16:21
Speaker 1: our friend, Sarah Wallace at Embassy for New York, a
16:23
Speaker 1: friend found Marie Cumla's bruised body in a clump of bushes.
16:27
Speaker 1: The medical examiner later determined she'd been manually strangled because
16:31
Speaker 1: she was not walking to that location. It happened either
16:35
Speaker 1: she's murdered, there had been dumped, there was murdered somewhere else.
16:39
Speaker 1: And though private investigator Eddie Dowd was hired by Cula's
16:42
Speaker 1: family on Long Island, they say they were stonewalled from
16:45
Speaker 1: the very beginning by Club Med and Island police. You
16:49
Speaker 1: don't think they took it seriously. They just wanted them
16:52
Speaker 1: to sweep it under the rugs. Probably them. It's the
16:54
Speaker 1: easiest way to answer that. The couple's son lives in California.
16:58
Speaker 1: I want to know what happened and we won justice
17:00
Speaker 1: for my mom. Guys, you're hearing not only the private
17:03
Speaker 1: eye hired by the family they had to go to
17:05
Speaker 1: that expense, but the sun that is hurting about the
17:09
Speaker 1: murder off his mother. You were also hearing our friend
17:12
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace. Sarah, you went to the location. What did
17:15
Speaker 1: you see in the spot where her body was found
17:17
Speaker 1: and why did her friends have to find her and
17:19
Speaker 1: not the club med staff. Well, that's a really good
17:23
Speaker 1: question because they notified the staff in the morning, twenty
17:28
Speaker 1: four hours after she originally had been seen at the pool,
17:32
Speaker 1: and twelve hours after she hadn't shown up for dinner.
17:36
Speaker 1: They then later that afternoon notified Island police. They were
17:40
Speaker 1: told they actually had to wait until the afternoon for
17:43
Speaker 1: police to be notified, and the next morning. It was
17:47
Speaker 1: the next morning that they found her body. The friends
17:50
Speaker 1: found her body in this clump of bushes. Now it's
17:54
Speaker 1: about several hundred yards away from the guest cottages, but
17:59
Speaker 1: it's a wall the way from where you would think
18:02
Speaker 1: anybody would walk. It just doesn't make sense that if
18:05
Speaker 1: you were going for a little rendezvous or you were
18:08
Speaker 1: going to have a drink with somebody, that you wouldn't
18:10
Speaker 1: go to the beach or some other property area that
18:15
Speaker 1: was frequented by people. This was off off off from
18:18
Speaker 1: the main area, the main road, the main entrance. Crime
18:34
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, we're talking about the murder of
18:39
Speaker 1: an American mom. He goes on his dream vacation with
18:42
Speaker 1: her friends to Club Mad and Turks and Caicos. So
18:47
Speaker 1: the Club Mad told the friends they had to wait
18:51
Speaker 1: another twenty four hours before they call police. They flagged
18:55
Speaker 1: them in the morning, and they were told that they
18:57
Speaker 1: couldn't notify them until later that afternoon, which would have
19:01
Speaker 1: been twenty four hours from the time that she was
19:04
Speaker 1: last seen that she left the pool and went to
19:07
Speaker 1: her room to take a nap. Now, what's also significant,
19:11
Speaker 1: I think is that the family who was so frustrated,
19:14
Speaker 1: and you heard them say that they believed that they've
19:16
Speaker 1: been stonewalled. They didn't get her body back for six weeks.
19:22
Speaker 1: And by that time, and you'll hear your experts to
19:25
Speaker 1: talk about that her body was so decomposed that they
19:29
Speaker 1: couldn't do another autopsy, so it was not properly stored.
19:33
Speaker 1: Do you know, Sarah Wallace, was there any evidence that
19:35
Speaker 1: she ever even made it back to her room that
19:38
Speaker 1: night She was last seen going to the room. We
19:42
Speaker 1: don't know if she actually got there, but her friends
19:46
Speaker 1: believed that she went to the room. And when I
19:48
Speaker 1: said night, it's really several hours before supper. Correct, Correct.
19:54
Speaker 1: She left in the afternoon, around a little before six,
19:58
Speaker 1: and then they had dinner, and she didn't show up
20:00
Speaker 1: for dinner, So it would be natural, maybe you go
20:03
Speaker 1: to take a nap in your room and then you
20:05
Speaker 1: would come later. And it didn't think anything of it
20:07
Speaker 1: when she didn't see up for dinner, because maybe she
20:09
Speaker 1: was just resting and she fell asleep. But by that
20:12
Speaker 1: next morning the alarm bell started to go off. Sarah, Well,
20:15
Speaker 1: she found in the same clothing that they last saw
20:18
Speaker 1: her in. She was She was found in the same clothing.
20:21
Speaker 1: And let's go back to the sandal. The sandal that
20:25
Speaker 1: was found about a hundred yards away from her body.
20:28
Speaker 1: There is no way, Nancy, that she would have walked
20:32
Speaker 1: on that sandy dirt road. It is gravelly, it's rough
20:36
Speaker 1: on your feet, She wouldn't have just gone walking on
20:39
Speaker 1: that road and her scandal was up somewhere else, and
20:43
Speaker 1: she wouldn't have gone barefoot any distance from that. So
20:47
Speaker 1: that's where the attack began, or evidence that she was
20:51
Speaker 1: dry from at least that spot to where her body
20:53
Speaker 1: was found. When you say she was wearing the same
20:56
Speaker 1: outfit she had on when she was last seen by
20:58
Speaker 1: her friends leaving the pool before dinner, what was the outfit?
21:01
Speaker 1: She was wearing a bathing suit, and then she had
21:04
Speaker 1: to cover up over that and scandal. So that tells
21:08
Speaker 1: me she never made it to her room, because why
21:12
Speaker 1: would think about it a wet swimsuit, sandy yucky? Why
21:18
Speaker 1: would you go in your room and take a shower
21:21
Speaker 1: and lay down for a nap and then put back
21:23
Speaker 1: on your same wet swimsuit and cover up. I don't
21:26
Speaker 1: think she ever made it back to her room, that's possible.
21:29
Speaker 1: I wonder if her room was in disarray, if she
21:33
Speaker 1: was attacked in the room. Maybe the part was stealing
21:38
Speaker 1: from her room. I mean, we don't know because such
21:39
Speaker 1: a shotting investigation was done. Guys, take a listen to this.
21:44
Speaker 1: The mysterious death of an American tourist is Rocking, a
21:47
Speaker 1: popular resort on this upscale Caribbean island known for its white,
21:51
Speaker 1: sandy beaches. Turks and Caicos is a favorite spot for
21:54
Speaker 1: vacationers wanting to get away from it all. But this morning,
21:57
Speaker 1: the Royal Turks and Caicos Islands Police Force has launched
22:00
Speaker 1: a murder investigation into the death of Marie Kunla. The
22:04
Speaker 1: attorney from Long Island, New York, was staying at the
22:06
Speaker 1: club Med Turks and Caicos when she disappeared last Monday.
22:10
Speaker 1: A day later, her body was found in some bushes
22:12
Speaker 1: near the resort. Well, they launched her murder investigation. But
22:16
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, joining us from NBC four New York, I
22:20
Speaker 1: bet that was like pulling a tooth. Well, I think
22:23
Speaker 1: you know, from the very beginning there were questions about
22:26
Speaker 1: the investigation. When we went down to Turks and Keikos,
22:30
Speaker 1: we tried to talk to the lead investigator and we
22:34
Speaker 1: were told at that time that the investigation was still open,
22:38
Speaker 1: that it was a homicide investigation. But what we also
22:42
Speaker 1: knew at the time is that privately they had told
22:46
Speaker 1: the family that they were suspecting that it may not
22:50
Speaker 1: have been a murder, so they were going down apparently
22:54
Speaker 1: a different path, but told us something else. What is
22:57
Speaker 1: that true? George Hyperfi, a lawyer retained by the family,
23:02
Speaker 1: joining us out of New York. They told the family,
23:05
Speaker 1: we think it might be a murder, but maybe it's not. Yes.
23:08
Speaker 1: In September twenty nineteen, in fact, you had an investigator
23:12
Speaker 1: from Turks and Keikos it's almost like the police academy
23:16
Speaker 1: out there, that came out to New York to basically
23:19
Speaker 1: tell the family they were reinvestigating this matter because they
23:23
Speaker 1: didn't believe it was a manual strangulation. They were trying
23:26
Speaker 1: to pose a theory that maybe she fell and that's
23:29
Speaker 1: how she lost consciousness. It was ridiculous. We had a
23:34
Speaker 1: Miami medical examiner that flew down there that I guess
23:38
Speaker 1: was hired by Turks and the island of Turks and
23:41
Speaker 1: Caicos for any murderers that went on on the island
23:44
Speaker 1: to take a look at the body. And that medical
23:46
Speaker 1: examiner found that it was manual strangulation. But apparently the
23:50
Speaker 1: Turks and Caicos police department was not happy with that. Okay,
23:53
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you know to doctor Todd im Barr.
23:57
Speaker 1: Doctor Barr is the deputy medical examiner, a forensic pathologist
24:01
Speaker 1: at Cleveland in the medical Examiner's office. And let me
24:06
Speaker 1: tell you no offense Cleveland. That's a very high crime.
24:10
Speaker 1: So you got a lot of murders going down there.
24:13
Speaker 1: I know because I worked in the one of the
24:15
Speaker 1: murder capitals of the country, Inner City Atlanta, I mean
24:20
Speaker 1: for years toward the end, practically all I tried. We're homicides,
24:23
Speaker 1: doctor Barr. How can you have a manual strangulation? And
24:28
Speaker 1: once you've seen one, they're pretty easy to identify, according
24:32
Speaker 1: to me, who knows nothing. Okay, I'm JD, not an
24:35
Speaker 1: m D. But they are typically finger marks literally finger
24:40
Speaker 1: marks that are bruises on the neck. You can see
24:44
Speaker 1: the fingertips, you can see the actual fingers. You can see,
24:49
Speaker 1: as you told me earlier, where there's more pressure where
24:53
Speaker 1: the thumbs are. And it's really you mentioned the highoid bone.
24:59
Speaker 1: It's really obvious. Often when you've got Emmanuel strangols, how
25:03
Speaker 1: could they say, maybe she fail what on her neck?
25:06
Speaker 1: So that's completely ridiculous, I mean completely ridiculous. And what
25:11
Speaker 1: I would want to know is where the bruising was
25:14
Speaker 1: that they found and if what were there any defense wounds?
25:18
Speaker 1: On the backs of her hands, that she were there
25:21
Speaker 1: scratch marks on her neck from her own fingernails trying
25:24
Speaker 1: to pull the attacker off. And did they collect DNA
25:29
Speaker 1: or trace evidence? Did they swab her neck in her hands?
25:32
Speaker 1: And did they preserve evidence? And you know, there's a
25:36
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that that should have been done. I
25:38
Speaker 1: don't know if it was done in the case or not.
25:41
Speaker 1: And did they do a rape kit? You know, if
25:44
Speaker 1: that was part of the possibility Time Stories with Nancy Gray,
26:01
Speaker 1: you know, Sarah Walla's investigative reporter NBC for New York.
26:04
Speaker 1: Don't you just love talking to medical examiners. They're so smart,
26:08
Speaker 1: all right? And I could just listen to them all
26:11
Speaker 1: day long. As a matter of fact, Sarah, very often
26:14
Speaker 1: I would end or start a murder case with the
26:18
Speaker 1: medical examiner because it just pulls everything together, things that
26:23
Speaker 1: as a lawyer or a lay person you may not
26:27
Speaker 1: think about. But was there a rate kit? Was there?
26:30
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now there's no DNA taken
26:32
Speaker 1: if they still think she fell on her neck. But
26:35
Speaker 1: another thing, Sarah Wallison, correct me if I'm wrong. Doctor
26:39
Speaker 1: Barr with a asphyxiation of any type, beak smothering ligature
26:44
Speaker 1: or manual strangulation, you will have the particular in your eye,
26:49
Speaker 1: those little blood vessels that you can't see pop and
26:54
Speaker 1: sometimes gaily, and you can actually you can get that
26:58
Speaker 1: in the oral mucosa as well. The lining of the mouth.
27:01
Speaker 1: You can get it in the stop the press. What
27:05
Speaker 1: did you just say about the oral mucosa. If you're
27:08
Speaker 1: talk regular talk doctor, or are you talking the veins
27:12
Speaker 1: in your mouth if you're you can get the same
27:15
Speaker 1: patiquia that can be on the surface around the eyes.
27:19
Speaker 1: It can be uh, inside the mouth, like if you
27:22
Speaker 1: pull your lip down, you can get patiquia there. Um.
27:26
Speaker 1: It can be where the epiglottis is in your throat
27:28
Speaker 1: that covers your airway when you're swallowing. Um. There's a
27:32
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Even in the deepest portion of the brain,
27:37
Speaker 1: in the base of the brain, there's a place called
27:39
Speaker 1: the sphenoid sinus, and it's lined by this mucosa. And
27:43
Speaker 1: we whenever we have a ligature or a manual strangulation,
27:46
Speaker 1: we unroof that and look at that mucosa because you'll
27:49
Speaker 1: actually see patiquia in that region as well. Well, you
27:52
Speaker 1: just schooled me. You take meniscal right there, Sarah Wallace.
27:56
Speaker 1: I'm sure none of that was done right. I don't
27:58
Speaker 1: know the details, and I don't think the family knows
28:01
Speaker 1: the details because they have refused to turn over any
28:06
Speaker 1: of the reports to the family. But going back to
28:10
Speaker 1: what your expert is just saying, the medical examiner did
28:14
Speaker 1: the autopsy right then and there, so he knows what
28:19
Speaker 1: he saw, he did the analysis. What happened afterward was
28:23
Speaker 1: that they didn't preserve the body. So now to go
28:27
Speaker 1: back and try and reanalyze what the medical examiner did
28:31
Speaker 1: and question it seems kind of absurd when he was
28:34
Speaker 1: the one who saw the body initially and did an
28:37
Speaker 1: expert examination. Wow, And typically photographs are taken during an autopsy. Ah,
28:43
Speaker 1: you're right, doctor, You're absolutely right. Yet again, earlier you
28:46
Speaker 1: were hearing our friends at ABCGMA. Now take a listen
28:50
Speaker 1: to our cut six. This is Sarah, our friends Sarah
28:53
Speaker 1: Walt's an NBC four New York list. Twenty four hours later,
28:56
Speaker 1: that awful discovery and her sandal found on the main
28:59
Speaker 1: dirt nearby. You identified the shoe. Yes, herman's suspicious of
29:04
Speaker 1: that male guest who had allegedly groped her, then reported
29:07
Speaker 1: him to police. He later hired an attorney. Maurice's friends
29:11
Speaker 1: and family, her husband and son, believe there's been no
29:15
Speaker 1: real investigation by island police. First of all, you can't
29:18
Speaker 1: feel it's beinhandled properly. I hate using this term out
29:21
Speaker 1: but he can't get the closure like an open nerve.
29:24
Speaker 1: When we visited the island's police station, we were told
29:27
Speaker 1: the investigation, supported by the FBI, is still open, but
29:31
Speaker 1: it's still ongoing, and it still characterizes a murder. It is,
29:37
Speaker 1: but privately it's another story. As this video shows, the
29:41
Speaker 1: lead investigator recently met on Long Island with Marie's husband
29:44
Speaker 1: and other family representatives who recorded the conversation. Okay, you
29:52
Speaker 1: are now hearing about a guy who had been harassing
29:57
Speaker 1: the ladies, the group of ladies who was reported two
30:02
Speaker 1: club mad and they did nothing. As a matter of fact,
30:07
Speaker 1: take a listen to Sarah and our cut eleven. Michael Collins,
30:10
Speaker 1: a retired Nassau County police officer, was at Club Mead
30:14
Speaker 1: with his wife at the time of the murder. He
30:16
Speaker 1: says guests were kept completely in the dark. They didn't
30:19
Speaker 1: tell us anything. Did you see security cameras at club?
30:23
Speaker 1: No security cameras when he got home, Collins says he
30:26
Speaker 1: decided to report the suspicious behavior of a male guest,
30:29
Speaker 1: another Long Island local. I had this feeling about it.
30:32
Speaker 1: He he had other secrets about him. Marie's two friends
30:38
Speaker 1: had also complained about that guest. Weeks later, a cryptic
30:42
Speaker 1: phone message left at their office. You know how much
30:46
Speaker 1: drinking was involved, and you left the country after knew
30:49
Speaker 1: exactly where to find out the caller's number linked to
30:54
Speaker 1: that guest in the pool. Marie's boss made a copy
30:57
Speaker 1: of the tape and I provided it to the FBI
31:00
Speaker 1: because at that time they were involved in the situation.
31:02
Speaker 1: Provided it to the FBI. You know, it kind of
31:06
Speaker 1: feels like that's just like screaming it out of the
31:09
Speaker 1: window driving down Third Avenue. I mean, what happened? Let
31:13
Speaker 1: me circle back to Ave George, the high profile lawyer
31:17
Speaker 1: hired by Maurice family. Who is this guy and is
31:21
Speaker 1: it true the women had complained about him already? Multiple
31:25
Speaker 1: people at the resort were complained about him, including the
31:28
Speaker 1: woman that we just heard about from Sarah Elma, who
31:31
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted by this individual on a first day
31:35
Speaker 1: at the resort. Okay, Sarah, what do we know about
31:37
Speaker 1: this guy. His name Frank Yakulo, Frankie Kulo. I spoke
31:43
Speaker 1: with him by phone a couple of times, and he
31:46
Speaker 1: told me he questioned me. And originally the first thing
31:50
Speaker 1: he said to me on the phone was did they
31:52
Speaker 1: ever find out who did it? That was the first
31:55
Speaker 1: thing he said to me. He did tell me that
31:58
Speaker 1: he had been to Aimed in Turks and Caicos and
32:02
Speaker 1: questioned by police for the alleged sexual assault on Helma
32:07
Speaker 1: Hermann's He stated that the bail had been posted at
32:10
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars and that someone he believes to be
32:15
Speaker 1: a local posted it. He doesn't know who, and when
32:19
Speaker 1: he got back to Long Island and was questioned, he
32:22
Speaker 1: then hired an attorney and that was the end of that. Okay,
32:25
Speaker 1: let me understand. This guy, a former club man employee
32:31
Speaker 1: not named by police, is Frank Yakulo, and he had
32:36
Speaker 1: already been detained for sex assaulting another one of the women.
32:40
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Sarah? That is correct. He denies that
32:43
Speaker 1: he did anything. He denies that he had anything to
32:46
Speaker 1: do with Marie Kummler's murder or disappearance. He says that
32:50
Speaker 1: he had been with her at the pool with a
32:53
Speaker 1: group at the pool and that was the last time
32:55
Speaker 1: he saw her. Take a listen to this for the
32:57
Speaker 1: first time. Marie's friends are publicly revealing new details about
33:01
Speaker 1: their concerns about a male guest they had met at
33:04
Speaker 1: the pool, also from Long Island. That person kind of
33:08
Speaker 1: latched on to us a group at first, and then
33:12
Speaker 1: specifically latched onto Marid. He was just constantly drunk. Helma
33:16
Speaker 1: Hermans told us she avoided the guest after she claims
33:20
Speaker 1: he sexually assaulted her in the water. She didn't report
33:23
Speaker 1: it at the time. He just went right between my legs.
33:27
Speaker 1: He groped me. And I know that there's people that say,
33:29
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, let me understand that was you speaking to
33:34
Speaker 1: another woman that said he groped her vaginally in the
33:38
Speaker 1: pool and she left. It was after that Marie left,
33:44
Speaker 1: and I believe that's when she was killed. We don't
33:47
Speaker 1: know if there's been a DNA analysis done or a
33:50
Speaker 1: rape kit done. We know nothing. But is this guy,
33:55
Speaker 1: Frank Nuculo who says he's innocent. Is he a former
33:59
Speaker 1: club Man employee or was he a guest from Long Island.
34:03
Speaker 1: We understand that he was a former employee of club
34:06
Speaker 1: Med and Abe can discuss that in more detailed, but
34:09
Speaker 1: he was also a guest at the time of the disappearance.
34:13
Speaker 1: He was definitely a guest at the resort. He used
34:18
Speaker 1: to work there, according to several people, and obviously would
34:22
Speaker 1: know the lay of the land. What about it, Abe?
34:24
Speaker 1: Did he work there? Is he from Long Island? What
34:28
Speaker 1: do we know about this guy? Our private investigator Eddie
34:31
Speaker 1: down that went down there interviewed several people who confirmed
34:34
Speaker 1: that he was a former GEO with Nicolon at Club
34:38
Speaker 1: Med where he general operator something of that sort of
34:43
Speaker 1: general it's a French term, but those people are hired
34:48
Speaker 1: to entertain guests, so that was his job a while back,
34:51
Speaker 1: and multiple people on the island confirmed that, so he
34:54
Speaker 1: would be familiar with the path that Sarah was talking
34:58
Speaker 1: about where the body was found with tourists don't normally
35:01
Speaker 1: go I'm telling you Chris Buyer's former chief of police,
35:03
Speaker 1: John's Creek, the police force, the medical Examiner's office. The
35:09
Speaker 1: motive investigation on these islands is nothing like what we're
35:14
Speaker 1: used to in the United States. So when you go there,
35:18
Speaker 1: you're signing up for that as well. You just you're
35:21
Speaker 1: not just getting the all inclusive resort. You're getting the
35:25
Speaker 1: all inclusive island and that's what comes with it. Absolutely,
35:29
Speaker 1: they are selling up a thought there of the safety
35:32
Speaker 1: and serenity, and their number one priority is going to
35:35
Speaker 1: be protect that at all costs. You're talking about these
35:38
Speaker 1: islands that have a million visitors every year that come
35:42
Speaker 1: to them, and this is their source of income, and
35:46
Speaker 1: to me, I would think their first priority would be
35:48
Speaker 1: to protect that in that sense of security anyway possible,
35:51
Speaker 1: because all the way back Chief Buyers to them putting
35:55
Speaker 1: the island police the body was found near Club Mad,
35:59
Speaker 1: not on Club Mad property, to kind of extend the
36:04
Speaker 1: attack away from Club Mad. I mean it started at
36:08
Speaker 1: the very beginning. Chris. Yeah, absolutely, everything that I've heard
36:12
Speaker 1: on the details have unfolded on this, Everything I've heard
36:16
Speaker 1: is leading you to that. I mean, there's just no
36:19
Speaker 1: way around it. As one of the I believe it
36:21
Speaker 1: was the Sun said it seemed like it was swept
36:23
Speaker 1: under the rug. That's exactly what it sounds like to me.
36:26
Speaker 1: It's been a shoddy investigation. It wasn't handled properly when
36:29
Speaker 1: she was reported missing. Nothing was handled properly when they
36:33
Speaker 1: reported this guest. This just all leads to just completely
36:38
Speaker 1: shoddy investigation from the very beginning. Hey, George, tell me
36:41
Speaker 1: about the lawsuit. I mean you can't. Obviously so far
36:44
Speaker 1: I've not gotten criminal charges, so there's no satisfaction there
36:48
Speaker 1: at Turxy Cacus. What about your civil suit, Well, we
36:51
Speaker 1: found a wrongful death action right now, almost about a
36:54
Speaker 1: year ago, and what we found is just a delayed
36:57
Speaker 1: tactic at the delayed tactic from club and counsel, and
37:01
Speaker 1: in factful we've been covered during the course of the litigation.
37:04
Speaker 1: Is this corporate shell game where they claim there's six
37:08
Speaker 1: different entities that are involved and none of them have
37:11
Speaker 1: anything to do with the depth of Marie Kuma. I
37:15
Speaker 1: think a lot of Americans would be surprised that they're
37:20
Speaker 1: not really legally ensured if they go down to the resort.
37:24
Speaker 1: The entity itself has done everything they can to attenuate
37:28
Speaker 1: themselves from any problem that they might have on the resort.
37:32
Speaker 1: Just know that Clubman and Clubmed Turcos denies all of this.
37:38
Speaker 1: That said Sarah Wallace, I cannot even imagine the husband,
37:43
Speaker 1: the family, mom goes away for a girl's getaway. This woman,
37:48
Speaker 1: I know, yes, I clash with legal aid and public defenders.
37:53
Speaker 1: They work like dogs, just like prosecutors. They've got us
37:57
Speaker 1: in many cases as prosecutors do. And to think she
38:00
Speaker 1: goes away for a vacation and her family never sees
38:04
Speaker 1: her again. Where does this thing stand? Why aren't we
38:08
Speaker 1: getting any criminal charges? I mean, didn't they let a
38:11
Speaker 1: large suspect leave the jurisdiction. Well, I think that's the
38:15
Speaker 1: pain of the family. You know, they just want to
38:18
Speaker 1: know the answer. They want to know what happened, and
38:22
Speaker 1: they feel from the very beginning that they were stone
38:25
Speaker 1: walls and that there is still not an active investigation.
38:29
Speaker 1: One of the things that we tried to find out,
38:31
Speaker 1: and I know that legal team has as well. Were
38:35
Speaker 1: there security cameras? We were told different stories. We were
38:39
Speaker 1: told yes there were working cameras at the gate, but
38:42
Speaker 1: there were not security cameras within the property. So that's
38:45
Speaker 1: another issue that has seemed to have been stone walls.
38:50
Speaker 1: Were there or were there not? It's a pretty simple
38:52
Speaker 1: question to find out whether or not there was security video. Well,
38:55
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, now I know why you have nineteen Emmy awards.
39:01
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. I mean, it's a fine
39:05
Speaker 1: kettle of fish when an investigative reporter like Sarah Wallace
39:11
Speaker 1: and a lawyer like Abe George can tell us more
39:15
Speaker 1: about a homicide than the police can. What about that?
39:22
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime story, signing
39:25
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,