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“Kenosha vs. Convention.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 1: On today's pod, I talked to Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Mandela
0:26
Speaker 1: Barnes about the latest developments in the police shooting of
0:28
Speaker 1: Jacob Blake in Kenosha, and I talked to Before that,
0:31
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the first three nights of the Republican
0:33
Speaker 1: National Convention and what it might mean for the final
0:35
Speaker 1: 68 days of the election. But first, check out this
0:39
Speaker 1: week's Pod Save the World where Tommy and Ben talk
0:41
Speaker 1: about the poisoning of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, the
0:45
Speaker 1: foreign policy lowlights from the RNC, and chat with a
0:48
Speaker 1: 26-year-old politician from Brazil named Tabata Amaral, who's been called
0:53
Speaker 1: her country's version of AOC. And finally, believe it or not,
0:59
Speaker 1: There are only 10 weekends left between now and the election. 10, Dan, 10.
1:05
Speaker 2: Do you think that's a lot or a little?
1:08
Speaker 1: I think it's a little.
1:10
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't seem like a lot, but I
1:14
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, I feel like it should be.
1:15
Speaker 1: I don't know, 10 weekends ago? What was happening 10
1:17
Speaker 1: weekends ago?
1:18
Speaker 2: Probably the same thing is going to happen this weekend
1:20
Speaker 2: and 14 weekends from now and 20 weekends from now. Nothing.
1:24
Speaker 1: Anyway. Make them count. This weekend, our Adopt-A-State program is
1:28
Speaker 1: hosting a special weekend of action to help Democrats take
1:31
Speaker 1: back the Senate. Sign up to Adopt-A-State at votesaveamerica.com slash adopt,
1:36
Speaker 1: and we will send you details about exactly what you
1:39
Speaker 1: can do to help from home. Adopt-A-State. Do not freak out.
1:45
Speaker 1: Just help out. That's my new slogan for the last
1:48
Speaker 1: 68 days, Dan.
1:49
Speaker 2: Oh, that could fit on a koozie or something. call
1:52
Speaker 2: the merch.
1:52
Speaker 1: I mean, I actually, although I do want to be
1:54
Speaker 1: sort of self-aware about this, I think you can freak
1:56
Speaker 1: out and help out because that's what I'm going to do.
2:00
Speaker 3: Yes.
2:01
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to not freak out.
2:03
Speaker 2: I was going to keep your secret for you, but
2:05
Speaker 2: since you, you just admitted that publicly, it's fine.
2:07
Speaker 1: No, I always admit it.
2:08
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:08
Speaker 1: I'm a fucking mess every day. Okay. Let's get to
2:10
Speaker 1: the news. We will, uh, we'll dig into the Republican
2:13
Speaker 1: national convention in a minute, but at this point, I
2:16
Speaker 1: think the event, uh, has really been overshadowed by two
2:19
Speaker 1: major developments. One is a catastrophic hurricane that's hitting Louisiana
2:23
Speaker 1: right now. And the other is the protests that have
2:26
Speaker 1: taken place after video surfaced of a police officer in Kenosha, Wisconsin,
2:30
Speaker 1: who shot 29-year-old Jacob Blake seven times in the back
2:34
Speaker 1: in front of his children. On Tuesday night, as people
2:37
Speaker 1: took to the streets, a Blue Lives Matter supporter from
2:40
Speaker 1: Illinois who attended a Trump rally in January shot and
2:43
Speaker 1: killed two protesters and injured a third. The 17-year-old has
2:46
Speaker 1: been charged with first-degree murder. The police officer who shot
2:49
Speaker 1: Jacob Blake has been placed on leave while the case
2:51
Speaker 1: is investigated. And the protests have spread far beyond Kenosha
2:55
Speaker 1: to professional sports, where players on various teams in the
2:58
Speaker 1: NBA and Major League Baseball, starting with the Milwaukee Bucks
3:01
Speaker 1: and Brewers, chose to sit out their games and possibly
3:05
Speaker 1: the rest of the NBA season in protest. There are
3:09
Speaker 1: a lot more details to the story. I tried to
3:11
Speaker 1: cram in as many as I could. But I do
3:13
Speaker 1: want to stop here, Dan, and get your reaction to
3:15
Speaker 1: both the shooting and the scope of the protests, which,
3:19
Speaker 1: you know, now includes some pretty bold action from a
3:21
Speaker 1: lot of professional athletes.
3:24
Speaker 2: It's the whole incident is sort of embodies everything that
3:31
Speaker 2: is so horrible about this period in which we're living, right?
3:36
Speaker 2: The shooting of Jacob Blake is horrifying. The shooting of
3:42
Speaker 2: the peaceful protesters is horrifying. The differential in treatment between
3:49
Speaker 2: Jacob Blake and the white shooter of the protesters by
3:53
Speaker 2: the police is horrifying. The comments by the law enforcement
3:58
Speaker 2: Kenosha blaming the protesters for being out past curfew is horrifying.
4:03
Speaker 2: The way in which the far right is now lifting
4:07
Speaker 2: up as some sort of hero, this 17-year-old who shot
4:11
Speaker 2: protesters is horrifying. And we will get into this. It
4:18
Speaker 2: is in many ways a fitting backdrop to the convention
4:21
Speaker 2: that we are seeing in, I guess, DC or in
4:26
Speaker 2: the White House, wherever it's happening, because a lot of
4:29
Speaker 2: the themes of that convention run headlong into this. And
4:34
Speaker 2: I think, I just want to say, one thing about
4:36
Speaker 2: the protest more broadly is like the, I think credit
4:40
Speaker 2: goes to the athletes at the, in the NBA, major
4:42
Speaker 2: league baseball, WNBA, who are taking a really bold stand. The,
4:49
Speaker 2: you know, this is the NBA players or professional athletes
4:51
Speaker 2: sitting out a game in, in protest is something that
4:54
Speaker 2: has not happened in history. And it seeks to, I think,
5:00
Speaker 2: raise attention to this in a very real way. And
5:03
Speaker 2: I think it, goes to something that is so important
5:06
Speaker 2: is we are living in deeply dangerous, abnormal times. And
5:11
Speaker 2: it is easy to feel the pull of normalcy because
5:16
Speaker 2: we want our lives to be normal. And frankly, watching
5:19
Speaker 2: NBA games, even if they're happening in a bubble with
5:23
Speaker 2: fans on a screen and fake applause, still feels like
5:29
Speaker 2: something resembling normal times. And when LeBron James... and the
5:34
Speaker 2: Milwaukee Bucks and the rest of these players say they're
5:36
Speaker 2: not going to play, that shakes that sense of normalcy
5:40
Speaker 2: that a lot of people are clinging to. And I
5:42
Speaker 2: think that's important if we're going to confront all of
5:44
Speaker 2: the systemic racism that undergirds this incident and all the
5:48
Speaker 2: other ones we've been talking about this year and before.
5:52
Speaker 1: I think it's sort of the only way that we
5:55
Speaker 1: can really confront it. I mean, what has struck me about,
5:58
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about sort of the differences between Kenosha
6:03
Speaker 1: and the protests that erupted after George Floyd's murder. And what,
6:10
Speaker 1: you know, in many ways, it's just as horrifying, just
6:13
Speaker 1: as infuriating. But it's also a bit more dispiriting because
6:19
Speaker 1: between the Floyd protests and now, nothing significant has been done,
6:26
Speaker 1: particularly on a national level, about police brutality. There is
6:31
Speaker 1: legislation stalled. because Mitch McConnell obviously won't take it up
6:36
Speaker 1: in the Senate. In Wisconsin right now, the Republican legislature
6:41
Speaker 1: refuses to come back into session to do anything about this. Obviously,
6:44
Speaker 1: there have been small and important victories around police budgets
6:48
Speaker 1: in many cities, but clearly not enough. And I think
6:53
Speaker 1: to me, so long as we have a political system
6:58
Speaker 1: that is this broken, with Donald Trump as president, with
7:01
Speaker 1: gerrymandered Republican legislatures all around the country, with police departments
7:05
Speaker 1: that are run like they are, with a Senate that
7:09
Speaker 1: is run by Mitch McConnell. So long as we have
7:10
Speaker 1: this political system, there will be protests, but nothing will
7:15
Speaker 1: give until something big changes. And I do think that's
7:18
Speaker 1: why what the NBA, what so many people in the
7:22
Speaker 1: NBA did yesterday was so momentous, because they are basically
7:26
Speaker 1: using all of the power of their platform to try
7:29
Speaker 1: to change this. And it's, you know, it's a lot
7:32
Speaker 1: more than some of the sort of corporate moves you
7:36
Speaker 1: saw around George Floyd, where there'd just be sort of
7:38
Speaker 1: like a, you know, a statement from a company or
7:41
Speaker 1: a brand, right? Like this is a real action that
7:45
Speaker 1: these NBA players have taken. And I hope a lot
7:47
Speaker 1: more people in different parts of society see this and
7:50
Speaker 1: take similar action. So I'll talk about this more later
7:54
Speaker 1: with Lieutenant Governor Barnes. And I have no idea what,
7:59
Speaker 1: if any, kind of political impact the shooting and these
8:01
Speaker 1: protests will have. But I do want to talk briefly
8:03
Speaker 1: about how both campaigns are handling it. Joe Biden released
8:07
Speaker 1: a video where he said that Jacob Blake's shooting made
8:09
Speaker 1: him sick, that he promised Blake's family that justice would
8:12
Speaker 1: be done, that protesting brutality is necessary, and that burning
8:16
Speaker 1: down communities isn't protest, but needless violence. At his party's convention...
8:21
Speaker 1: Donald Trump gave primetime speaking slots to a rich white
8:24
Speaker 1: couple who pointed guns at Black Lives Matter protesters, the
8:28
Speaker 1: attorney general who so far refused to charge Breonna Taylor's killers,
8:32
Speaker 1: and multiple speakers who attacked athletes for protesting police brutality.
8:37
Speaker 1: What do you make of the different responses to Kenosha
8:39
Speaker 1: from the two campaigns? The Biden folks seem like they
8:41
Speaker 1: wanted to emphasize both support for the protests and opposition
8:45
Speaker 1: to the violence. The Trump campaign didn't allow the incident
8:48
Speaker 1: to change anything about their convention. their law and order
8:51
Speaker 1: message at all, and in fact, did what they could
8:54
Speaker 1: to continue inciting this kind of division and violence.
8:57
Speaker 2: I mean, it has been the primary political strategy of
9:00
Speaker 2: the Republican Party for decades to scare the living shit
9:04
Speaker 2: out of white people. And they see an opportunity to
9:06
Speaker 2: do that right here in the tipping point state that
9:10
Speaker 2: will likely decide the presidential race in Wisconsin. And that
9:13
Speaker 2: is what the convention is about. That is what putting
9:16
Speaker 2: the McCloskeys, the St. Louis gun couple in prime time
9:20
Speaker 2: from their giant mansion speaking to a convention and treating
9:24
Speaker 2: them as heroes for pointing assault weapons at peaceful protesters.
9:31
Speaker 2: All right. The rule of the Republican– like the way
9:35
Speaker 2: the Republicans view this is white people can use weapons
9:40
Speaker 2: to respond in any way they see fit to defend
9:43
Speaker 2: themselves whether that threat is real or not. But peaceful
9:46
Speaker 2: protests from black people is– presents a clear and present
9:50
Speaker 2: danger to the safety and security and sanctity of white people.
9:53
Speaker 2: And that is the message they have been trying to have.
9:55
Speaker 2: They've been doing this long before Donald Trump ever rolled
9:57
Speaker 2: on the scene. This is 16 years ago.
10:00
Speaker 5: 68.
10:00
Speaker 2: This is Ronald Reagan. This is Willie Horton. This is
10:04
Speaker 2: Sarah Palin. This has been the primary strategy of the
10:07
Speaker 2: Republican Party. And it is on steroids at this Republican convention,
10:11
Speaker 2: but that is what is happening.
10:12
Speaker 1: And they're not trying to hide it, right? Like Kellyanne
10:14
Speaker 1: Conway this morning said, quote, So they are openly talking
10:28
Speaker 1: about their political calculations around what's happening. So I guess
10:33
Speaker 1: the question is, if you're the Biden campaign, how do
10:37
Speaker 1: you handle it? I thought his video yesterday was a
10:40
Speaker 1: good start. I know he was talking today, basically saying
10:44
Speaker 1: he used Kellyanne's comments to say, they want this. They
10:49
Speaker 1: basically want to pour gasoline on this fire.
10:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. Always the best way with
10:54
Speaker 2: Trump is to call out the game, to explain why
10:57
Speaker 2: they are doing things and why are they trying to
10:59
Speaker 2: divide us? What are they trying to distract us from?
11:01
Speaker 2: And that is a much better way than being defensive
11:05
Speaker 2: about it and then sort of buying into the language
11:09
Speaker 2: of the right in talking about some of the isolated
11:12
Speaker 2: incidents of violence that may happen around these largely peaceful protests,
11:16
Speaker 2: whether they're in their Kenosha or elsewhere. And so, you know,
11:18
Speaker 2: I think Joe Biden's campaign navigated the protests around the
11:23
Speaker 2: murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and so many others
11:26
Speaker 2: quite well, right? By doing this, by just speaking from
11:29
Speaker 2: the heart and not being defensive about it. And that's
11:32
Speaker 2: what they're doing here. And I imagine that's what they're
11:34
Speaker 2: going to keep doing.
11:35
Speaker 1: And also let's talk about what we mean when we
11:39
Speaker 1: say violence in Kenosha, because the two major incidents of
11:44
Speaker 1: violence so far are a police officer shooting an unearned
11:47
Speaker 1: black man seven times in the back. And then a
11:51
Speaker 1: Trump supporter from Illinois coming into Wisconsin and shooting and
11:56
Speaker 1: killing two protesters and injuring a third. Someone who is
12:00
Speaker 1: a Trump supporter who was at a Trump rally. And
12:03
Speaker 1: so I do think like, Donald Trump bears responsibility here
12:07
Speaker 1: in the language he uses and how he incites people
12:11
Speaker 1: every day on Twitter and at his rallies. And I
12:14
Speaker 1: think that Joe Biden and the Democrats, and I saw
12:17
Speaker 1: they started doing this today, like this will not end
12:22
Speaker 1: until Trump is no longer president. And there's no zero
12:25
Speaker 1: guarantee that it will end when Trump isn't president anymore.
12:27
Speaker 1: But there's no chance of change with Donald Trump as
12:30
Speaker 1: president right now. Like, you know, there will be police
12:34
Speaker 1: brutality and there will be violence and there will be
12:36
Speaker 1: chaos as long as this man holds power and most
12:40
Speaker 1: Republican officials and continue to stoke these divisions. And I
12:44
Speaker 1: think that is the clear message because, you know, Donald
12:47
Speaker 1: Trump's trying to say like, oh, if Joe Biden becomes president,
12:50
Speaker 1: there'll be violence and chaos in our cities. It's happening
12:53
Speaker 1: now with Donald Trump as president.
12:56
Speaker 6: Right.
12:56
Speaker 2: That's the fatal flaw in the Trump argument. Someone had
12:59
Speaker 2: said this on Twitter, and I apologize for not remembering
13:01
Speaker 2: who it was. But Donald Trump's message is that he's
13:04
Speaker 2: going to stop all the things that are currently happening
13:06
Speaker 2: from happening. Right?
13:07
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's the whole message. That's the whole message.
13:10
Speaker 2: We cannot let it go without pointing out that, like,
13:14
Speaker 2: you were right. Donald Trump bears responsibility here. And not
13:18
Speaker 2: just Donald Trump. Republicans up and down the ballot bear
13:22
Speaker 2: responsibility for this because their message is– if your message
13:27
Speaker 2: is anyone who wants can buy an assault rifle, also
13:32
Speaker 2: we're going to scare you with racist language about black
13:38
Speaker 2: protesters and immigrants and terrorists coming to kill you. When
13:43
Speaker 2: people take matters into their own hands with the very
13:46
Speaker 2: weapons you're allowing them to get in many cases without
13:48
Speaker 2: background checks– You bear responsibility for this. It's easy to
13:53
Speaker 2: gloss over this as typical politics, but at the same time,
13:58
Speaker 2: you're giving people access to deadly weapons of war and
14:03
Speaker 2: trying to incite violence at the same time. That is
14:07
Speaker 2: not normal. That is not just part of politics. That's
14:10
Speaker 2: not left versus right. That is why people die. That's
14:14
Speaker 2: why we have a huge unacknowledged right-wing terrorism problem in
14:18
Speaker 2: this country.
14:20
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson, Donald Trump's pal, who advises him on things,
14:24
Speaker 1: said last night on his fucking program, how shocked are
14:27
Speaker 1: we that 17-year-olds with rifles decided they had to maintain
14:31
Speaker 1: order when no one else would. Ann Coulter, I want
14:35
Speaker 1: him as my president, talking about the 17-year-old who murdered
14:40
Speaker 1: two people in Wisconsin. That is what conservative media is
14:46
Speaker 1: beaming into the homes of Of millions of Americans. That message.
14:52
Speaker 1: And the Republican Party, they go on those shows. They
14:55
Speaker 1: get advice from those media personalities. They take their cues
14:59
Speaker 1: from what happens on Fox News. That is the Republican
15:02
Speaker 1: Party ecosystem right now. And you cannot have a conversation
15:06
Speaker 1: about how public opinion is changing and the politics of
15:10
Speaker 1: all this without acknowledging how off the fucking deep end
15:15
Speaker 1: these people have gone. Let's talk about everything that we
15:18
Speaker 1: have unfortunately seen at the upbeat and optimistic Republican convention,
15:24
Speaker 1: which has been a mix of video testimonials and mostly
15:26
Speaker 1: pre-taped speeches at a podium in front of an empty auditorium.
15:31
Speaker 1: There have also been a few segments where Trump surprised
15:33
Speaker 1: unsuspecting White House guests with things like pardons and citizenship
15:36
Speaker 1: as a way to juice those ratings, because he is,
15:40
Speaker 1: as we've been told, quite a showman. That's what we're
15:43
Speaker 1: told about Donald Trump. Before we get into the specifics,
15:46
Speaker 1: what are your overall thoughts about the format of this
15:49
Speaker 1: convention compared to what we saw at the DNC last week?
15:53
Speaker 2: I think it is less of a shit show than
15:57
Speaker 2: we probably imagined it would be.
15:59
Speaker 3: It moves.
16:02
Speaker 2: There haven't been sort of technical glitches or anything like that.
16:05
Speaker 6: It is.
16:07
Speaker 2: Certainly a greater opportunity to get coronavirus than the Democratic Convention,
16:11
Speaker 2: considering all the people without masks just hanging out together
16:15
Speaker 2: at Fort McHenry at the Penn speech. There'll be a
16:17
Speaker 2: thousand people at the Trump speech tonight where masks are
16:23
Speaker 2: optional and discouraged, apparently. And I think, you know, we
16:28
Speaker 2: can talk maybe a little bit later about the strategy,
16:29
Speaker 2: but just in the day-to-day insanity of life in the
16:35
Speaker 2: Trump era, Like it all seems so stupid and chaotic
16:39
Speaker 2: like there's no plan. And that is true when Trump
16:42
Speaker 2: is speaking or tweeting. But there is a plan here, right?
16:45
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's shocking to see when– just for them
16:48
Speaker 2: to have even the basic bare bones of a strategy
16:52
Speaker 2: to accomplish political goals. And that is definitely happening here.
16:55
Speaker 2: And so like that is not– I'm just struck. I
17:00
Speaker 2: just can't stop thinking about 2016 when you and I were,
17:05
Speaker 2: I was at both conventions in 2016 and you and
17:07
Speaker 2: I did podcasts from them. And I remember sitting in Cleveland.
17:13
Speaker 2: I was doing it in the, I was talking to
17:15
Speaker 2: you for the, our party, our keeping a 1600 podcast then, uh,
17:19
Speaker 2: sitting in the, in the empty baseball bleachers at the
17:23
Speaker 2: Cleveland Indian stadium, which is right next to the arena where, uh,
17:27
Speaker 2: the convention was. And we were just like dunking on
17:30
Speaker 2: them and laughing at them and talking about Antonio Sabato Jr.
17:33
Speaker 2: and all the absurdities and Michael Flynn's insanity. And I
17:38
Speaker 2: remember a similar conversation in Philadelphia, feeling great about the
17:41
Speaker 2: amazing Clinton convention. And it's just, and I don't think
17:44
Speaker 2: those assessments were necessarily wrong, but it's easy to overread
17:48
Speaker 2: one way or the other into it. And so I
17:50
Speaker 2: just want to like, as we have this conversation, take
17:52
Speaker 2: a step back and recognize that, uh, We don't know
17:57
Speaker 2: the impact of any of this stuff yet. And we
18:00
Speaker 2: could be surprised by it one way or the other
18:02
Speaker 2: in both, in both instances.
18:04
Speaker 4: Yeah.
18:05
Speaker 1: And I always hold out the possibility that we could
18:08
Speaker 1: be surprised that, or maybe not surprised that neither convention
18:13
Speaker 1: had much of an impact at all.
18:14
Speaker 6: Yeah.
18:15
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just the other, and that also could,
18:18
Speaker 1: we don't know that about 2016 either looking back on it, right?
18:21
Speaker 1: Like how much those conventions had an impact on the final,
18:24
Speaker 1: on the final outcome.
18:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's like they're a long way from
18:28
Speaker 2: the election and a million things happen between them. I
18:30
Speaker 2: think we can say with some certainty that the Democratic
18:35
Speaker 2: invention in 2020 was successful because we have seen data
18:39
Speaker 2: that shows that Joe Biden improved his personal favorability ratings
18:44
Speaker 2: pretty significantly coming out of those conventions. That was the
18:47
Speaker 2: goal of that entire program was to further define Joe
18:51
Speaker 2: Biden and Kamala Harris in the eyes of voters. They
18:53
Speaker 2: achieved that. We don't know what will happen in this one.
18:58
Speaker 1: I will say something about the difference in format. I
19:00
Speaker 1: think the Democratic Convention, the format acknowledged that we are
19:06
Speaker 1: living through a pandemic, a global pandemic. They acknowledged reality.
19:11
Speaker 1: And so there were speeches from all different parts of
19:14
Speaker 1: the country. You didn't go long in the Democratic Convention
19:19
Speaker 1: programming without remembering that COVID is sort of like the
19:24
Speaker 1: essential fact of American life right now. The Republican convention
19:28
Speaker 1: so far has tried very hard to make people forget
19:32
Speaker 1: about the pandemic completely. And we'll talk about how that's
19:36
Speaker 1: true in the speeches, but it was also true in
19:37
Speaker 1: the format, right? It's just like, here's a podium, here's
19:40
Speaker 1: a bunch of speakers. Here's a bunch of, you know,
19:43
Speaker 1: like a lot of the pre-taped videos weren't about COVID,
19:46
Speaker 1: pretended like it had never happened, right? Like even the
19:49
Speaker 1: four and production of the Republican convention sort of is
19:54
Speaker 1: strategic in that I think it's trying to make people
19:57
Speaker 1: forget about the biggest crisis that we're facing right now,
20:01
Speaker 1: one that Donald Trump has not handled well at all.
20:03
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a poor execution of it because the
20:06
Speaker 2: medium is the message, right? The fact that Joe Biden
20:09
Speaker 2: and Kamala Harris are delivering these speeches in empty rooms,
20:11
Speaker 2: that this was all happening by Zoom was a very
20:14
Speaker 2: implicit reminder that Donald Trump has massively screwed up the pandemic,
20:19
Speaker 2: which is forcing us to live in a world where
20:21
Speaker 2: people cannot be in the same room together. The Republican
20:24
Speaker 2: convention is trying, like there is some, you know, there
20:28
Speaker 2: is some rhetorical toss to, well, we have more testing
20:32
Speaker 2: and what we, really after you talk about the China
20:34
Speaker 2: ban from six months ago, as if six months later,
20:37
Speaker 2: there weren't a thousand Americans dying every single day, which
20:41
Speaker 2: seems to suggest that maybe that China ban was not
20:43
Speaker 2: as effective as Republicans would suggest. But even when you
20:48
Speaker 2: look at that, like the head-on shot of Mike Pence's
20:51
Speaker 2: speech in Fort McHenry, that seems like a real event.
20:54
Speaker 2: He's outside and there are signs and he's at a fort.
20:57
Speaker 2: But then when they do the crowd, it's like 45
21:00
Speaker 2: people sitting together, like kind of like golf clapping. Uh,
21:06
Speaker 2: and like, so that you can't, it's like the worst
21:09
Speaker 2: of all worlds, right. Is to try to pretend like
21:11
Speaker 2: something's not happening, but do it so poorly that it
21:13
Speaker 2: reminds every, that everyone knows you're trying to pretend like
21:15
Speaker 2: it's not happening.
21:17
Speaker 1: So, you know, as you said, like we, we don't
21:20
Speaker 1: know the effect, um, that this convention, the Republican convention
21:23
Speaker 1: will have on voters yet. Neither of us have spoken
21:26
Speaker 1: to any undecided voters yet this week. Maybe we can
21:29
Speaker 1: refrain from pontificating with certainty about how they're reacting. I
21:33
Speaker 1: know that's a wild idea.
21:35
Speaker 2: No, there's two types of data. There is polls and
21:37
Speaker 2: there's anecdotes on Twitter. And they're equally valuable in assessing politics.
21:42
Speaker 1: Look, it's important as a pundit to show that you
21:45
Speaker 1: know what swing voters are thinking and that everyone else
21:49
Speaker 1: around you is just a bunch of media elites. who
21:52
Speaker 1: are just sneering down their noses at them. But you
21:55
Speaker 1: know exactly what voters are thinking because you are in
21:57
Speaker 1: touch with voters. That's how you pundit, Dan. What we
22:02
Speaker 1: can do, even if we don't know voters' reactions, we
22:04
Speaker 1: can talk about what kind of voters the Trump campaign
22:07
Speaker 1: seems to be targeting with this convention and what they
22:09
Speaker 1: want them to hear. What do you think? What have
22:13
Speaker 1: you detected as the strategy of this convention?
22:16
Speaker 2: There are certainly two groups of voters that they are
22:23
Speaker 2: trying to attract or persuade with this convention. And it's
22:27
Speaker 2: an open question as to whether you can do both
22:29
Speaker 2: at the same time. But one group is definitely moderate
22:35
Speaker 2: Republicans and Republican-leading independents who have left Trump. And the
22:40
Speaker 2: message to these people is Trump is less racist than
22:43
Speaker 2: you think. He's actually a better president than you think.
22:46
Speaker 2: He's more of a traditional Republican than you think related
22:49
Speaker 2: to that. Joe Biden's more of a typical liberal Democrat
22:52
Speaker 2: than you think. And so we know you want to
22:56
Speaker 2: come home to be with your Republican family, and we're
22:59
Speaker 2: trying to create a permission structure for you to do that.
23:02
Speaker 2: The second group is the large number of non-voting, likely
23:08
Speaker 2: Trump voters in the Midwestern states of Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin.
23:12
Speaker 2: And that is what the base rhetoric is for. That's
23:14
Speaker 2: what the McCloskeys are for. That's what the Antifa... anarchy
23:18
Speaker 2: in the city, stuff as far as you're trying to
23:20
Speaker 2: jack up turnout among those people. And you're not going
23:23
Speaker 2: to get all the Republican-leaning voters back, and you're not
23:26
Speaker 2: going to get all the new voters in, but a
23:29
Speaker 2: little bit from column A and a little bit from
23:30
Speaker 2: column B could win you this race.
23:34
Speaker 1: And we don't know how many of those non-voters are
23:37
Speaker 1: tuning in or have tuned into the Republican convention. But
23:40
Speaker 1: what I was going to say, what we do know
23:42
Speaker 1: in general about sporadic voters, low propensity voters, whatever you
23:47
Speaker 1: want to call them, on both the Democratic side and
23:50
Speaker 1: the Republican side, and they're sort of different demographics on
23:52
Speaker 1: each side, is that they are very disconnected from the news.
23:57
Speaker 1: They do not pay attention to politics as closely as
23:59
Speaker 1: all of us. And so they are probably unlikely to
24:02
Speaker 1: have watched the convention. Perhaps they saw some media coverage
24:07
Speaker 1: of the convention, but they don't even follow the news
24:10
Speaker 1: super closely either. And we just know this because of
24:13
Speaker 1: past polls and research and focus groups about people who
24:15
Speaker 1: tend to not vote in every election. So it is
24:18
Speaker 1: tougher to reach those people. But you're right that it's
24:21
Speaker 1: probably not as tough to reach Republicans or people who
24:25
Speaker 1: voted for Trump in 16. Either they were Obama Trump
24:28
Speaker 1: voters or they voted for Trump in 16 and now
24:32
Speaker 1: disapprove of him. Um, and are probably still Fox news
24:36
Speaker 1: watchers are probably still, you know, they, they still pay
24:38
Speaker 1: attention to a lot of Republican media. So I'm sure
24:41
Speaker 1: they were a big target of Trump on this campaign.
24:43
Speaker 1: And you're right for those people. A lot of the
24:45
Speaker 1: problem is like Trump has just been a bad guy
24:49
Speaker 1: and he hasn't been an effective president and he hasn't
24:51
Speaker 1: done great on COVID and he's too much of an asshole.
24:55
Speaker 1: So maybe I won't vote for him. And this whole
24:57
Speaker 1: convention was basically saying, no, I mean, I got a
24:59
Speaker 1: couple of messages out of the convention that I wrote
25:02
Speaker 1: down here. One is Trump is the greatest president ever,
25:05
Speaker 1: despite what, you know, the crooked media may tell you.
25:08
Speaker 1: A lot of media bashing about how, you know, Trump
25:11
Speaker 1: is a victim. He's a victim of the media. He's
25:13
Speaker 1: actually the greatest president ever. The next message is COVID
25:15
Speaker 1: is yesterday's news. Forget about COVID. It's already, it's gone.
25:19
Speaker 1: It's something that we went through. It's past tense. Third
25:21
Speaker 1: is Republicans aren't racist or sexist, and neither are you
25:26
Speaker 1: for supporting them. That's been every night of the convention.
25:31
Speaker 1: And then the final one is Joe Biden, Kamala Harris
25:34
Speaker 1: are puppets of the radical left who will turn America
25:36
Speaker 1: into a violent, chaotic hellscape where you may be canceled.
25:40
Speaker 1: That's another big, big part of the message. Did I
25:43
Speaker 1: miss any or were those all the messages?
25:45
Speaker 2: No, those were all the messages. I mean, yeah, that's probably,
25:48
Speaker 2: I mean, there's iterations of those, but I think that
25:52
Speaker 2: is right. I do think part of embedded in all
25:56
Speaker 2: of that is they're really trying to make Trump seem
26:02
Speaker 2: more like a typical Republican. That's why all these small
26:07
Speaker 2: business owners talking about getting rid of regulations, that's what
26:11
Speaker 2: the discussion of the tax cuts and the judges are,
26:13
Speaker 2: which is like, if you're a Republican, if you generally
26:15
Speaker 2: like Republicans, you should like Trump. Because if you think
26:18
Speaker 2: about it, in polling prior to the pandemic, Trump was
26:24
Speaker 2: 75% of the Trump voters who voted for a Democrat
26:29
Speaker 2: in the 2018 elections were planning to vote for Trump
26:34
Speaker 2: in 2020. Now, clearly by the size of Biden's margin,
26:39
Speaker 2: that number has dropped some. If Trump gets that number
26:43
Speaker 2: back to 75 or a little bit higher than 75,
26:46
Speaker 2: this is a very, very close race that he can
26:48
Speaker 2: win in the battleground states. And so he's got to
26:51
Speaker 2: get just some regular Republicans who typically vote for Republicans
26:54
Speaker 2: to vote for him because the Electoral College has a
26:57
Speaker 2: four to five point Republican advantage.
27:00
Speaker 1: I will say that the strategy of trying to turn
27:05
Speaker 1: Trump into a typical Republican, while it may or may
27:10
Speaker 1: not have been successful this week, but it was certainly
27:13
Speaker 1: a strategy this week, I do think it's going to
27:15
Speaker 1: be harder for them to pull off long term. Because
27:18
Speaker 1: the one surprise for me from this convention, compared to
27:24
Speaker 1: how they were previewing it, is how little Trump there
27:27
Speaker 1: has been at the convention, right? So like Monday morning,
27:30
Speaker 1: Trump goes and gives like a 50-minute speech, you know,
27:35
Speaker 1: right after he gets nominated that says all kinds of
27:37
Speaker 1: crazy shit, right? Since then, we've seen so little and
27:42
Speaker 1: heard so little from Donald Trump. He's in a few
27:46
Speaker 1: of these videos at the convention, but he's even not
27:48
Speaker 1: saying too much in the videos. Some of the speakers,
27:52
Speaker 1: some of the people the most well-received speeches that we're
27:55
Speaker 1: going to talk about, barely mentioned Donald Trump. And so
27:58
Speaker 1: there's been, to me, there's been much less Trump at
28:01
Speaker 1: this convention than I thought there would be, which I
28:03
Speaker 1: think could help Trump. But long-term, as soon as we
28:06
Speaker 1: go back to like Donald Trump doing his press conferences
28:09
Speaker 1: and doing his crazy interviews and saying crazy shit on Twitter,
28:12
Speaker 1: it's going to sort of move away from this idea
28:15
Speaker 1: that he's just another Republican.
28:18
Speaker 2: That is always the problem. with Trump is your best
28:21
Speaker 2: laid messaging will be upended by Trump. You raised the
28:25
Speaker 2: point like how many of these periodic sporadic voters are
28:27
Speaker 2: watching this convention. Here's the math. The math is that
28:31
Speaker 2: if I did this right in my head, 15% of
28:34
Speaker 2: the 2016 electorate is watching these conventions, just kind of
28:38
Speaker 2: presuming the same ratings for the next night. And of
28:41
Speaker 2: that 15%, you know that the overwhelming majority of that
28:46
Speaker 2: are decided voters on both sides, either people who love
28:49
Speaker 2: Trump watching it or people who hate watching it, or
28:52
Speaker 2: people who are forced by professional obligation like us to
28:55
Speaker 2: watch it. And so you're not talking to a lot
28:59
Speaker 2: of undecided voters. But this is, I think, the way
29:02
Speaker 2: to think about this strategy is how it plays out
29:05
Speaker 2: over time in the context of where they spend their money,
29:10
Speaker 2: what their paid media strategy is. Now, I don't think
29:12
Speaker 2: the best paid media strategy with the best funded campaign
29:14
Speaker 2: ads can overcome the attention that Trump's own behavior gets.
29:18
Speaker 2: But you don't have to make big shifts in the
29:21
Speaker 2: electorate to win a race because an electoral college race
29:26
Speaker 2: is won on the margins in a bunch of very
29:28
Speaker 2: close states. And so moving things a few points here,
29:31
Speaker 2: shaving a couple points off of Biden's margin with Black voters,
29:35
Speaker 2: getting back some of those seniors, and we're looking at
29:38
Speaker 2: something entirely different in a few months from now.
29:49
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the big speeches from the first night,
29:51
Speaker 1: which were from a former UN ambassador in South Carolina,
29:54
Speaker 1: Governor Nikki Haley, and South Carolina Senator Tim Scott, Haley
29:59
Speaker 1: and Scott both focused on race with Haley saying she
30:01
Speaker 1: doesn't believe the United States is racist. And Scott told
30:04
Speaker 1: his own story while attacking Biden's record on racial issues.
30:07
Speaker 1: Here are two clips from their speeches.
30:10
Speaker 3: There's one more important area where our president is right.
30:13
Speaker 3: He knows that political correctness and cancel culture are dangerous
30:18
Speaker 3: and just plain wrong. In much of the Democratic Party,
30:23
Speaker 3: it's now fashionable to say that America is racist. That
30:29
Speaker 3: is a lie. America is not a racist country. This
30:35
Speaker 3: is personal for me. I am the proud daughter of
30:39
Speaker 3: Indian immigrants. They came to America and settled in a
30:43
Speaker 3: small southern town. My father wore a turban. My mother
30:48
Speaker 3: wore a sari. I was a brown girl in a
30:51
Speaker 3: black and white world. We faced discrimination and hardship. but
30:56
Speaker 3: my parents never gave in to grievance and hate.
31:01
Speaker 4: Our family went from cotton to Congress in one lifetime.
31:07
Speaker 4: And that's why I believe the next American century can
31:11
Speaker 4: be better than the last. There are millions of families
31:16
Speaker 4: just like mine all across this nation, full of potential,
31:20
Speaker 4: seeking to live the American dream. And I'm here tonight
31:25
Speaker 4: to tell you that supporting the Republican ticket gives you
31:28
Speaker 4: the best chance of making that dream a reality.
31:33
Speaker 1: Dan, what did you think of their speeches?
31:36
Speaker 4: Annoying.
31:38
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like, it's all BS, right? It's
31:41
Speaker 2: pretending that Trump is not someone that he is. It's
31:45
Speaker 2: like in a vacuum in a normal world, they're totally fine,
31:49
Speaker 2: kind of okay written convention speeches. Scott's was better than Haley's,
31:53
Speaker 2: but it's just something bizarre about the fact that these
31:55
Speaker 2: speeches were given as if they could have been speaking
31:56
Speaker 2: at Mitt Romney's convention in 2012 with no regard for
31:59
Speaker 2: everything that has happened since, you know? And I think
32:01
Speaker 2: that's most noted in Nikki Haley's speech, where she goes
32:04
Speaker 2: out of the way to point out that America is
32:06
Speaker 2: not racist, and then talks about the reason Nikki Haley
32:10
Speaker 2: became a national celebrity was her response to the racist
32:14
Speaker 2: mass shooting in Charleston, where what she became famous for
32:19
Speaker 2: was removing the Confederate flag in South Carolina. But she
32:23
Speaker 2: alludes to it in the most indirect way possible, because
32:26
Speaker 2: you can't say that now in a Republican convention where
32:29
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has been a backer of the Confederate flag.
32:32
Speaker 2: And so like, they're totally fine. And I think they're
32:34
Speaker 2: probably effective. You know, if you are someone who in
32:37
Speaker 2: your gut wants to be for Trump, but you are
32:40
Speaker 2: deeply disturbed by his rhetoric on race, and you see
32:44
Speaker 2: two prominent Republicans of color saying nice things about Trump,
32:48
Speaker 2: that could get you in there. But they are detached
32:51
Speaker 2: from the reality of who Trump is and deeply, deeply insincere.
32:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had two thoughts listening to the speeches. I
33:00
Speaker 1: also thought that I thought that Tim Scott's was better
33:04
Speaker 1: and maybe one of the best speeches at the convention,
33:07
Speaker 1: of course, relatively speaking. But I thought, one, if either
33:14
Speaker 1: of these two were the nominee of their party, they
33:17
Speaker 1: would be formidable nominees. The media would fawn all over them.
33:22
Speaker 1: I think they'd be more competitive than Donald Trump is
33:25
Speaker 1: with the Democrat. And then my second thought was neither
33:29
Speaker 1: of these two elected officials would ever make it out
33:34
Speaker 1: of a Republican primary in 2020 or 2024, which would
33:38
Speaker 1: be their first shot. They just wouldn't. They just wouldn't
33:40
Speaker 1: because they did not hit enough of the Fox News
33:45
Speaker 1: right-wing erogenous zones that the Trumps do all the time.
33:50
Speaker 1: And I think it was highlighted by the two other
33:54
Speaker 1: speeches from the first night from Don Jr. and his girlfriend,
33:58
Speaker 1: Kim Guilfoyle, which I believe we have a clip of
34:01
Speaker 1: that Just something, whatever that was. Here's a clip.
34:05
Speaker 5: They want to destroy this country and everything that we
34:10
Speaker 5: have fought.
34:10
Speaker 2: For and hold dear.
34:12
Speaker 5: They want to steal your liberty, your freedom. They want
34:17
Speaker 5: to control what you see and think and believe so
34:20
Speaker 5: that they can control how you live. They want to
34:26
Speaker 5: enslave you to the weak, dependent, liberal victim ideology to
34:30
Speaker 5: the point that you will not recognize this country or yourself.
34:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
34:35
Speaker 1: So it does seem like maybe Don Jr. and Kim
34:38
Speaker 1: are the maybe that's the future of the party and
34:41
Speaker 1: not so much Haley and Scott. But what do you think?
34:43
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. One hundred percent for sure that that
34:48
Speaker 2: is the future. Someone who is more like Don Jr.
34:52
Speaker 2: and or Kim go for is the future of the party,
34:53
Speaker 2: not Tim Scott or Nikki Haley. I think like we
34:57
Speaker 2: were talking about what the strategy is. And I think
34:59
Speaker 2: it's fair to say that the strategy in conception is
35:03
Speaker 2: not insane, right? Like it matches up against where you
35:06
Speaker 2: see Trump's deficits are among core sets of voters. There
35:08
Speaker 2: is a roadmap to 270 if you were to execute
35:11
Speaker 2: elements of that strategy successfully. The execution, like all things
35:14
Speaker 2: with Trump, is not awesome. You go into that night,
35:20
Speaker 2: not the message that goes across the chyron of CNN,
35:23
Speaker 2: but what is on your message board? What are you
35:25
Speaker 2: trying to achieve that night by putting Haley and Scott
35:28
Speaker 2: in prime time? Donald Trump is not as racist as
35:32
Speaker 2: you think. That is what you are trying to do.
35:35
Speaker 2: Putting Donald Trump's Yahoo son, who is like a frat
35:41
Speaker 2: brother from Kappa Kappa Kappa, in between them to just
35:44
Speaker 2: do a bunch of white nationalist angry rhetoric in the
35:48
Speaker 2: middle makes zero sense. But the Trumps are so obsessed
35:51
Speaker 2: with themselves, they can't get out of their own way,
35:53
Speaker 2: which is why 30% of the people at this convention
35:56
Speaker 2: are either related to or employed by Donald Trump.
35:59
Speaker 1: Also, I know that the sort of like the pundits
36:03
Speaker 1: on cable were talking about Scott and Haley's speeches, but
36:08
Speaker 1: the viral moment from the first night was Guilfoyle.
36:10
Speaker 6: Yeah.
36:11
Speaker 1: That was those clips. There was, she was instantly memes.
36:13
Speaker 1: She was all over the internet. Like, and you know,
36:15
Speaker 1: everyone's like, says that the Trump campaign is like good
36:18
Speaker 1: about sort of, you know, viral content and digital strategy
36:21
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. But like they, Guilfoyle
36:24
Speaker 1: was the, the shareable moment from, from that first night,
36:27
Speaker 1: not the two people who could have better testified or
36:31
Speaker 1: made a better case for Donald Trump, Haley and Scott. Um,
36:35
Speaker 1: So the final speaker on the convention second night was
36:37
Speaker 1: First Lady Melania Trump. We'll get to her speech in
36:39
Speaker 1: a second, but just a few things to note before that.
36:42
Speaker 1: She delivered the speech in the Rose Garden, which happened
36:45
Speaker 1: after Secretary of State Mike Pompeo delivered a convention speech
36:48
Speaker 1: during an official trip to Jerusalem, which happened after the
36:51
Speaker 1: president issued a presidential pardon to a convicted bank robber
36:54
Speaker 1: and hosted a naturalization ceremony, both at the White House.
36:58
Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, there is a
36:59
Speaker 1: law called the Hatch Act, which bans all employees in
37:02
Speaker 1: the executive branch of the federal government except the president,
37:06
Speaker 1: from engaging in most political activities. So Dan, you know,
37:10
Speaker 1: as soon as it became clear that quite a few
37:12
Speaker 1: federal employees might have violated this law for Tuesday night's convention,
37:16
Speaker 1: a few intrepid reporters and pundits rushed to ask the
37:19
Speaker 1: all-important question, do ordinary Americans really care about this potential crime?
37:26
Speaker 1: What do you think?
37:27
Speaker 2: Did they ask the question and they just tell us?
37:29
Speaker 2: It was a rhetorical question.
37:30
Speaker 1: Actually, that's right. Yeah, it was a rhetorical question at best,
37:34
Speaker 1: at best. Most of them just asserted with all of
37:37
Speaker 1: the polling information. Apparently, they all took instant polls right
37:41
Speaker 1: after Tuesday night.
37:44
Speaker 2: This made me mad, John. It made me quite mad.
37:47
Speaker 6: I know.
37:48
Speaker 2: One, this always sets me off. Does anyone outside the
37:52
Speaker 2: Beltway think X? The person who asked that question is
37:55
Speaker 2: always inside the beltway and only talks to people in
37:57
Speaker 2: the beltway, right? So like the truth, does anyone outside
38:03
Speaker 2: the beltway care about a massive misuse of taxpayer dollars
38:07
Speaker 2: and illegal activity? Yes. Does anyone inside the beltway care
38:10
Speaker 2: about it? Apparently not. And the idea, you know, and
38:15
Speaker 2: I wrote about this today, but the idea that voters
38:19
Speaker 2: don't care about corruption, that that's not an issue voters
38:21
Speaker 2: care about, has no basis in history or polling, right?
38:28
Speaker 2: The 2006 election was run. The primary message when the
38:31
Speaker 2: Democrats took the House and Senate was about the Republican
38:34
Speaker 2: culture of corruption. It was a huge part of Barack
38:37
Speaker 2: Obama's campaign. It's why the most successful candidates in 18
38:42
Speaker 2: and 20 have foregone lobbyist and PAC contributions. It is
38:48
Speaker 2: a check on Trump's corruption. It was a big part
38:50
Speaker 2: of the 18. It makes no sense. Voters care about this. Now,
38:53
Speaker 2: voters will not care about it if we don't talk
38:55
Speaker 2: about it. I think it is true that people may
38:59
Speaker 2: not care about this one very specific provision, but about
39:04
Speaker 2: the law. But no one is arguing that we're going
39:09
Speaker 2: to start running ads that say, Trump violated the Hatch
39:11
Speaker 2: Act with pictures of Orrin Hatch on it. That's not
39:13
Speaker 2: what we're going to do. What you're going to do
39:15
Speaker 2: is you leave it. It's a data point that supports
39:19
Speaker 2: a larger narrative about Trump. And I think it is
39:22
Speaker 2: insane that Trump is committing crimes on national television and
39:28
Speaker 2: people are making a big deal about it. either in
39:29
Speaker 2: the media or in the Democratic Party.
39:32
Speaker 1: I also just think it's part of a larger disease
39:34
Speaker 1: that has afflicted the national political press corps, which is
39:38
Speaker 1: this belief that part of their job is to let
39:42
Speaker 1: America know what America thinks.
39:45
Speaker 2: Without asking America. It's important.
39:47
Speaker 1: Without asking America, right? Because I saw some reporters say, well, look,
39:51
Speaker 1: I've done all these stories and broken all this news
39:53
Speaker 1: on corruption. I'm like, fantastic. Great job. That's your job.
39:57
Speaker 1: That's the job of being a reporter is breaking news
39:59
Speaker 1: about stuff. Good for you. You did your job. The
40:02
Speaker 1: job is not... to hand wave something like this and say, well,
40:06
Speaker 1: I don't know if we're going to talk about it
40:07
Speaker 1: because people don't care about it. Like, you know what?
40:09
Speaker 1: If you show me a poll that like no one
40:11
Speaker 1: knows what the hatch act is or people don't really care,
40:14
Speaker 1: it doesn't move voters.
40:15
Speaker 2: Sure.
40:16
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be surprised by that poll. Like
40:18
Speaker 1: just show me the data, you know, but like that's
40:21
Speaker 1: different than what your job should be as a reporter
40:25
Speaker 1: when the president or when the president's employees may have
40:28
Speaker 1: potentially broken the law. you should let people know that
40:32
Speaker 1: they did. It should be a big story, you know,
40:35
Speaker 1: like you should talk about it. That's sort of the
40:38
Speaker 1: job of the political, that's the fundamental job of the
40:39
Speaker 1: political press. And if you tell people in advance that
40:43
Speaker 1: they probably don't care about it, it's a self-fulfilling cycle
40:47
Speaker 1: that will lead people not to care about it.
40:49
Speaker 3: Right.
40:49
Speaker 2: I mean, this all, a lot of the online debate
40:52
Speaker 2: about this had to do with a paragraph that made
40:55
Speaker 2: this point in pretty cynical ways about what voters care
40:58
Speaker 2: about in Politico playbook. And people got very, very mad
41:02
Speaker 2: about it. In some cases, I would say disproportionately so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:07
Speaker 2: But– It's not the end.
41:09
Speaker 1: This is not the end of the world, but it
41:10
Speaker 1: is indicative of a larger issue.
41:11
Speaker 2: And Jake Sherman, who is the reporter who– he's one
41:15
Speaker 2: of the authors of the playbook. I assume he wrote
41:16
Speaker 2: this paragraph giving his response. But he went through and
41:19
Speaker 2: did this laundry list of stories that he broke on
41:23
Speaker 2: corruption that led to huge political consequences for the subjects
41:28
Speaker 2: of those stories. It's like– I broke the story on
41:30
Speaker 2: Bill Schuster. Bill Schuster resigned. I broke the story on
41:32
Speaker 2: Aaron Schock. Aaron Schock resigned. It's like, yes, you're actually
41:35
Speaker 2: proving the point that voters care. Because if voters didn't care,
41:38
Speaker 2: they wouldn't have had to resign. Last thing I will
41:43
Speaker 2: say about this is it is fun for us to
41:45
Speaker 2: yell at the press about– it's not fun. I would
41:48
Speaker 2: take that back. It is not fun. We can't help
41:50
Speaker 2: ourselves yell at the press, but ultimately, whether voters care
41:54
Speaker 2: about it or not, has some relationship to how reporters
41:56
Speaker 2: cover it, but is mostly related to whether Democrats make
41:59
Speaker 2: the case about it, right? That's where the self-fulfilling prophecy is, right?
42:02
Speaker 2: Very fair. Which is, if we decide in advance that
42:05
Speaker 2: we're not going to make an issue of it, then
42:07
Speaker 2: voters will not care. Like, we have agency in how
42:10
Speaker 2: we do that. And I generally think that if the
42:13
Speaker 2: president commits crimes on national television, we should talk about them.
42:15
Speaker 2: And not talking about them is a mistake. Whoa, crazy.
42:19
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
42:20
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the message box for key insights like that.
42:24
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Melania's speech, which was widely praised for
42:27
Speaker 1: being the first to acknowledge the pandemic and offer sympathies
42:31
Speaker 1: to people who are sick or lost loved ones. Just
42:34
Speaker 1: insane stuff. She was also applauded for acknowledging that people
42:38
Speaker 1: have been protesting racism and saying that, quote, we are
42:41
Speaker 1: not proud of parts of our history. Groundbreaking stuff. Here's
42:45
Speaker 1: a clip of Melania's speech.
42:46
Speaker 7: I want to acknowledge the fact that since March, our
42:50
Speaker 7: lives have changed drastically. the invisible enemy COVID-19 swept across
42:58
Speaker 7: our beautiful country and impacted all of us. My deepest
43:04
Speaker 7: sympathy goes out to everyone who has lost a loved one,
43:10
Speaker 7: and my prayers are with those who are ill or suffering.
43:16
Speaker 7: I know many people are anxious and some feel helpless.
43:22
Speaker 7: I want you to know you're not alone.
43:24
Speaker 1: Dan, what did you think of this speech?
43:26
Speaker 2: Well, John, I am not proud of Melania's history because
43:30
Speaker 2: for all of her gauzy rhetoric about racial reconciliation, she
43:35
Speaker 2: was a 100% backer of Donald Trump's racist birther conspiracy.
43:40
Speaker 2: And so forgive me for not taking this speech particularly seriously.
43:45
Speaker 2: The whole conversation around it bespeaks the incredibly low bar
43:50
Speaker 2: that Republicans have to step over in order to be applauded.
43:53
Speaker 1: That's been the story of the entire fucking convention. And
43:56
Speaker 1: it's honestly, it's like, it's partly because of Trump. It's
44:00
Speaker 1: because Trump is so bad, right? That like the bar
44:04
Speaker 1: was so fucking low for all these people that a
44:06
Speaker 1: number of them just like sailed right over it because
44:09
Speaker 1: Trump's the one who said it.
44:11
Speaker 2: If you acknowledge that some people may be suffering from
44:15
Speaker 2: the pandemic that's killing 1,000 Americans a day, you get
44:20
Speaker 2: a Nobel Prize, right? Like that's how it's being treated.
44:24
Speaker 4: I know.
44:24
Speaker 1: Like, I know that it's like, you know, to be savvy,
44:27
Speaker 1: you're supposed to say that like Melania sort of like
44:30
Speaker 1: did the humanizing approach and was and was like warmer
44:35
Speaker 1: in a way that Donald Trump is not and all
44:36
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. I thought the speech was fucking
44:38
Speaker 1: all over the place. Like it didn't have a like
44:42
Speaker 1: it was like a bunch of disconnected stories. I don't
44:45
Speaker 1: know that if you polled a lot of people, maybe
44:48
Speaker 1: who knows if anyone could. I don't remember anything from
44:51
Speaker 1: the speech. I remember that she acknowledged that. That COVID existed.
44:55
Speaker 1: That's what I remember from that speech. And she told
44:57
Speaker 1: a couple stories and she said that Donald Trump should
45:00
Speaker 1: be elected for four more years. I can't tell you
45:02
Speaker 1: what else she said. I don't think her delivery was
45:05
Speaker 1: that great. I don't think she was that passionate about
45:07
Speaker 1: the speech. It didn't do it for me.
45:10
Speaker 2: It's like there is a deep desire in the general
45:16
Speaker 2: political pundit press world to find one Trump to be
45:20
Speaker 2: nice to. And people thought that would be Ivanka for
45:22
Speaker 2: a long time because... She was of their cocktail party circuit.
45:26
Speaker 2: But then she turned out to be such a terrible
45:29
Speaker 2: grifter that she's been passed over. And so if Melania.
45:33
Speaker 1: I mean, look, though, we are recording this before Ivanka
45:36
Speaker 1: speaks tonight. I will give you the punditry on Ivanka's
45:39
Speaker 1: speech already.
45:40
Speaker 2: Please do.
45:40
Speaker 3: Wow.
45:41
Speaker 1: Secret weapon for the Trump campaign. Humanized her father in
45:45
Speaker 1: a way no one else could. Told great stories about him.
45:49
Speaker 1: Spoke great to the suburban women that the Trump campaign
45:52
Speaker 1: is trying to get back. If this is the message
45:55
Speaker 1: on the campaign trail from her, she could really turn
45:58
Speaker 1: some things around. That's what we're going to get from tonight.
46:02
Speaker 2: Thank you for making me preemptively angry.
46:05
Speaker 1: I don't think there were many memorable moments from the
46:07
Speaker 1: third night of the convention, which was, I guess, last night.
46:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was last night. It never ends.
46:11
Speaker 1: The main event was a long speech from Vice President
46:13
Speaker 1: Mike Pence at Baltimore's Fort McHenry, who, like the First Lady,
46:17
Speaker 1: spoke in front of a small crowd that hadn't been
46:18
Speaker 1: tested for COVID and was not socially distanced. Pence used
46:22
Speaker 1: the speech to do some Trump ass kissing and some
46:24
Speaker 1: lying about Joe Biden. Here is a clip.
46:26
Speaker 8: Now, last week, Joe Biden said that no miracle is coming. Well,
46:35
Speaker 8: what Joe doesn't seem to understand is that America is
46:39
Speaker 8: a nation of miracles. And I'm proud to report that
46:47
Speaker 8: we're on track to have the world's first safe, effective
46:52
Speaker 8: coronavirus vaccine by the end.
46:54
Speaker 2: Of this year.
46:58
Speaker 1: Dan, what do you think Pence's strategy was with that speech?
47:03
Speaker 2: That's a great question, John.
47:07
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, like, staying on the ticket.
47:09
Speaker 2: Yes.
47:11
Speaker 1: Paying respects to dear leader, obviously. There's a lot of
47:14
Speaker 1: Trump is amazing. At one point, his mother was in
47:17
Speaker 1: the crowd, his actual mother, not mother. And Pence made
47:21
Speaker 1: reference to the fact that she might like Donald Trump
47:23
Speaker 1: better than Mike Pence, which is just really embarrassing.
47:28
Speaker 2: You mean his elderly unmasked mother?
47:31
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, right. That seems like a smart move.
47:35
Speaker 2: I do think that this, just take a step back
47:37
Speaker 2: from Pence's speech, I don't think the Trump campaign recognizes
47:40
Speaker 2: how many Americans react viscerally to seeing unmasked people. For
47:46
Speaker 2: the overwhelming majority of Americans, that's all you see. And
47:49
Speaker 2: it is very notable if you are out and about
47:52
Speaker 2: and you see someone unmasked. And particularly if it's a
47:55
Speaker 2: person who is likely in the vulnerable population. So when
47:58
Speaker 2: the camera spotlights Mike Pence talking about how much he
48:01
Speaker 2: loves his mother while she is sitting in a vent
48:04
Speaker 2: where people who were not tested for coronavirus are sitting
48:06
Speaker 2: around while she doesn't have a mask on. Because if
48:08
Speaker 2: she were to have a mask on, it would upset
48:10
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's view of the world. Like that is, that
48:13
Speaker 2: is fucked up.
48:14
Speaker 1: I feel like the main message we were supposed to
48:16
Speaker 1: get out of that was the line, you won't be
48:18
Speaker 1: safe in Joe Biden's America.
48:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's supposed to hammer Biden.
48:21
Speaker 1: He hammered Biden and he did all the law and
48:22
Speaker 1: order stuff. It's just like, to me, you know, you
48:25
Speaker 1: won't be safe in Joe Biden's America. I mean- let's
48:28
Speaker 1: talk about Donald Trump's America where a thousand people are
48:31
Speaker 1: dying every day of a pandemic that he let rage
48:34
Speaker 1: out of control.
48:35
Speaker 4: I don't know.
48:35
Speaker 1: Are we safe? Are we very stupid? Does everyone feel
48:37
Speaker 1: pretty safe in Donald Trump's America right now?
48:40
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that just in terms of the
48:42
Speaker 2: death count, we're having two nine 11s every single week
48:46
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump's watch.
48:47
Speaker 8: Yeah.
48:48
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and like the clip we played, uh,
48:51
Speaker 1: where Pence talked about, you know, miracles and vaccines there,
48:55
Speaker 1: there was also the, the classic, um, move from this convention,
49:00
Speaker 1: which is to talk about COVID in the past tense.
49:03
Speaker 1: There's a really sort of odd decision that they had
49:05
Speaker 1: over this convention to basically their message on COVID is
49:10
Speaker 1: actually Donald Trump handled this better than you think. Here's
49:13
Speaker 1: all the things we did great. Instead of saying, here's
49:17
Speaker 1: our plan to get out of it. And the closest
49:19
Speaker 1: pencil got was basically said, you know, we're going to
49:23
Speaker 1: have a we're going to have a vaccine by the
49:26
Speaker 1: end of the year. Just that's just just said that
49:29
Speaker 1: just asserted that in the speech. And that's the plan.
49:30
Speaker 1: There was nothing else. Now, apparently, tonight, Donald Trump is
49:34
Speaker 1: going to announce some faster testing that they are going
49:37
Speaker 1: to deploy in But yeah, not much by way of
49:41
Speaker 1: plans for COVID at this convention.
49:44
Speaker 2: I mean, that is the dear leader aspect of this,
49:46
Speaker 2: which is you can't ever– to focus on the future
49:51
Speaker 2: is to implicitly acknowledge failures in the past, and Donald
49:54
Speaker 2: Trump is temperamentally incapable of that. It's the same reason–
49:58
Speaker 2: like he views any– sort of focus on the suffering
50:02
Speaker 2: as an indictment of him because it's always about him, right?
50:04
Speaker 2: Like that is the truth and that is the message.
50:06
Speaker 2: It is Trump first. And so you can't– like what
50:10
Speaker 2: people want to hear when you do something wrong is
50:14
Speaker 2: it didn't go the way we wanted. We messed up.
50:17
Speaker 2: We apologize. Here's what we're going to do going forward.
50:19
Speaker 2: But they can't do that first part. The first part
50:22
Speaker 2: gives so much credibility to the second because you can't
50:25
Speaker 2: tell people that reality isn't reality. I mean, there's a
50:29
Speaker 2: small percentage of Fox viewers who can do that too,
50:30
Speaker 2: but in general, that is not a political strategy that
50:33
Speaker 2: can work because messaging has to be credible. And what
50:35
Speaker 2: is happening in the world with regards to COVID is
50:38
Speaker 2: no matter what Mike Pence or Donald Trump or Kim
50:40
Speaker 2: Guilford or anyone says is readily apparent to every single person.
50:45
Speaker 1: So related to all the hot takes about the convention
50:50
Speaker 1: and the effect it may or may not have had
50:52
Speaker 1: on people, there were two stories about the state of
50:54
Speaker 1: the race that I want to touch on before we go.
50:57
Speaker 1: First was by Jim VandeHei and Axios, who wrote that, quote,
51:00
Speaker 1: it feels like August 2016 all over again because, quote,
51:03
Speaker 1: pundits are proclaiming Trump can't win. Reporters are sneering at
51:06
Speaker 1: Trump voters on Twitter and cable. VandeHei lists a number
51:10
Speaker 1: of reasons not to count Trump out, including the fact
51:13
Speaker 1: that he's doing better in some swing state polls. Have
51:17
Speaker 1: you spoken to any Democrat or seen any piece anywhere
51:20
Speaker 1: that conveys the idea that Donald Trump is toast? I
51:24
Speaker 1: have not.
51:25
Speaker 2: No, I know none. Now, I don't know anyone who
51:29
Speaker 2: works for the Biden campaign who thinks that or the
51:31
Speaker 2: DNC or a random person on Twitter or anyone in
51:34
Speaker 2: my life. No one thinks that. That is an impossible
51:37
Speaker 2: thought after 2016. There will be people who, when Joe
51:42
Speaker 2: Biden has already taken the oath of office and is
51:44
Speaker 2: driving to the White House– Who will still be nervous, right?
51:48
Speaker 2: Like at the State of the Union, Joe Biden's first
51:50
Speaker 2: State of the Union, there will be people who are
51:52
Speaker 2: worried that when that Sergeant of Arms– The Donald Trump
51:55
Speaker 2: is going to march into the chamber. Yes, when they
51:57
Speaker 2: announce the President of the United States, Donald Trump will
51:59
Speaker 2: show up instead of Joe Biden. Like no one is cocky, right?
52:03
Speaker 2: And it is just such an obnoxious like strawman press
52:08
Speaker 2: argument to do that. There's no evidence supports it. And
52:11
Speaker 2: kudos to the many, many, many reporters who responded to
52:14
Speaker 2: that Axios story by pointing out that they do a
52:16
Speaker 2: lot of reporting. They talk to a lot of Democrats.
52:18
Speaker 2: I've never met one who feels that way. And so
52:22
Speaker 2: this is a very specific genre of arrogant contrarianism for
52:25
Speaker 2: the purpose of clicks as opposed to a broader narrative
52:29
Speaker 2: in the media about Democrats. Now, there's a narrative about
52:31
Speaker 2: the race forming that we can talk about. But the
52:34
Speaker 2: part about cocky Democrats, I think, is an isolated incident.
52:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's been a little conflation with Democrats
52:43
Speaker 1: criticizing the convention and talking about how crazy some of
52:47
Speaker 1: the speeches have been and moments have been, which we
52:49
Speaker 1: have all done, and associating that with a cockiness about
52:52
Speaker 1: the race overall, which I think are very different things.
52:56
Speaker 1: I can think that the convention might not be super
53:01
Speaker 1: effective at moving voters and still worry tremendously about the
53:06
Speaker 1: state of the race overall. And polls tightening and a
53:10
Speaker 1: number of things going Donald Trump's way so that he wins,
53:12
Speaker 1: which is where I am. I mean, can, you know,
53:16
Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it before, but do you
53:18
Speaker 1: want to sort of lay out the possibility that Trump
53:21
Speaker 1: can win, the path for him to win?
53:22
Speaker 2: You know, I did that. I think I did that
53:26
Speaker 2: last week. And several people on Twitter reached out and
53:29
Speaker 2: said they were very unhappy with that. They said, are
53:33
Speaker 2: you trying to scare the shit out of me? And
53:35
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I am. That's exactly what I'm doing.
53:38
Speaker 1: Um, my, my, my brother texted me the Axio story
53:41
Speaker 1: and he's like, should we be worried? And I said, yes, Andy,
53:45
Speaker 1: we should be worried. And he's like, all right, I'm
53:46
Speaker 1: going to, I was like, I got to just figure
53:48
Speaker 1: out what state I'm adopting.
53:51
Speaker 2: He hasn't adopted a state yet. Your own brother.
53:53
Speaker 1: I've been waiting to figure out to pick just the
53:55
Speaker 1: right state. Okay.
53:55
Speaker 2: Well, I'll, I'll, I'll send him a note. North Carolina.
53:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:00
Speaker 2: This race is going to narrow. At some point. It
54:04
Speaker 2: absolutely is. And the point is probably now because Donald
54:08
Speaker 2: Trump is underperforming his 2016 vote in the polling average
54:12
Speaker 2: by five to seven points. And he's going to get
54:15
Speaker 2: some of that back. He's not losing 57-40, right? He's
54:21
Speaker 2: going to get to– probably get to and maybe even
54:24
Speaker 2: exceed his 2016 percentage. Now, that was enough to win
54:30
Speaker 2: in 2016 because you had large numbers of voters who
54:32
Speaker 2: were voting third party. There's no evidence that that is
54:34
Speaker 2: going to happen this time, but this race is going
54:37
Speaker 2: to narrow. Donald Trump is going to get a convention bounce.
54:39
Speaker 2: Convention bounces happen for the candidates who go into their
54:44
Speaker 2: convention underperforming. You know who had the two biggest convention
54:47
Speaker 2: bounces of the modern era? John McCain in 2008 and
54:54
Speaker 2: Al Gore in 2000. John McCain got eight points out
54:57
Speaker 2: of that Palin convention.
54:58
Speaker 1: I forgot about that.
54:59
Speaker 3: Yeah.
54:59
Speaker 4: Wow. I mean, I don't know.
55:01
Speaker 1: I can't even say if Donald Trump will get a
55:02
Speaker 1: convention bounce. I just don't know. I don't know either way.
55:06
Speaker 1: I do think just based on all the polling data
55:09
Speaker 1: we've seen, all the research we've seen, like, you know,
55:12
Speaker 1: and I think I've sketched this out before too, but
55:14
Speaker 1: like if there's a situation where the number of cases
55:21
Speaker 1: of COVID just fall a little bit, there are better treatments.
55:24
Speaker 1: There is faster testing. Maybe there is a vaccine that's announced.
55:28
Speaker 1: And then people start to turn their attention to the
55:33
Speaker 1: economy where Trump is, for some reason in polls, still
55:37
Speaker 1: trusted over Biden by a little to handle the economy.
55:42
Speaker 1: And so people start focusing on that. And, you know,
55:46
Speaker 1: there's a possibility that Trump makes, you know, as he's
55:50
Speaker 1: trying to pour gas on the fire of a lot
55:53
Speaker 1: of these protests, that he continues to scare away some
55:58
Speaker 1: voters based on that, right? Like there's, we don't know,
56:01
Speaker 1: but there's all these possibilities and it's not hard to see,
56:05
Speaker 1: you know, an eight point lead nationally that Biden has
56:08
Speaker 1: now go down to a six point lead or a
56:11
Speaker 1: five point lead. And then we know that in the
56:13
Speaker 1: swing states, that means it's an even smaller lead than
56:16
Speaker 1: the national lead, right? It could go down to two
56:18
Speaker 1: or three points. And so it's like, and you have
56:21
Speaker 1: to think about like the fact that Hillary Clinton only
56:23
Speaker 1: lost Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan by, you know, 77,000 votes in
56:29
Speaker 1: three states. So the idea that Joe Biden four years
56:32
Speaker 1: later would win those states by five, six, like he's
56:35
Speaker 1: up now in some of them, is just probably not likely.
56:39
Speaker 1: Like if Joe Biden won those states by two points
56:42
Speaker 1: or three points, that would be a huge swing from 2016.
56:45
Speaker 1: Everyone should just know that. So absolutely this race can take,
56:49
Speaker 1: and absolutely Donald Trump can win. Like he can win
56:53
Speaker 1: this race. We should all be aware of that. We
56:55
Speaker 1: should have all been aware of that from the beginning.
56:57
Speaker 1: And if you're worried about that, literally the only thing
57:00
Speaker 1: you can do is like get to work, right? Adopt
57:04
Speaker 1: a state, organize, make phone calls, text people, call all
57:08
Speaker 1: your friends, talk to everyone in your social network. Like
57:10
Speaker 1: the only way to deal with this uncertainty that will
57:13
Speaker 1: be in our lives for the next 68 days and
57:15
Speaker 1: the fear that will come with it is to work
57:18
Speaker 1: our asses off every single day. That's it. That's all
57:21
Speaker 1: we can do.
57:21
Speaker 4: Yeah.
57:21
Speaker 2: I mean, this is going to be a very anxious
57:23
Speaker 2: time and it should be, right? Everything's on the fucking line.
57:26
Speaker 2: But channel that anxiety into activism. That's what we did
57:30
Speaker 2: in 2018. And it's what we can do now. And
57:33
Speaker 2: if we do that at the same level, we will
57:35
Speaker 2: have the same outcome.
57:37
Speaker 1: Okay. When we come back, I will talk to Lieutenant
57:40
Speaker 1: Governor of Wisconsin, Mandela Barnes. I'm now joined by the
57:52
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin, Mandela Barnes. Thanks for being with us.
57:56
Speaker 1: I know you have a lot going on right now.
57:58
Speaker 6: Yeah, man. Appreciate you having me. Give me a chance
58:00
Speaker 6: to talk about what's going on.
58:02
Speaker 1: So the state of Wisconsin has launched a criminal investigation
58:06
Speaker 1: into the shooting of Jacob Blake.
58:07
Speaker 2: The U.S.
58:08
Speaker 1: Department of Justice is open to civil rights investigation into
58:10
Speaker 1: the shooting. Jacob's father has expressed some doubt about these investigations.
58:16
Speaker 1: What level of confidence do you have in this process?
58:19
Speaker 1: And what do you say to people in your state
58:20
Speaker 1: who don't have faith that justice will be done here?
58:23
Speaker 6: Well, it's easy to have doubt in these sort of
58:25
Speaker 6: situations because we've seen it play out before where justice
58:29
Speaker 6: wasn't properly applied, even though there was a clear miscarriage
58:33
Speaker 6: of justice. So, of course, there's a hesitation, a reservation,
58:37
Speaker 6: and that's totally natural. And people... in Kenosha, people across Wisconsin,
58:42
Speaker 6: people across the entire country probably feel the same way
58:45
Speaker 6: because we've seen this before. This isn't some new thing.
58:49
Speaker 6: And it's not like every time there's this instance of
58:52
Speaker 6: violence being carried out at the hands of police officers
58:56
Speaker 6: or white supremacists that we see the law or justice
58:59
Speaker 6: equally applied to the person on the receiving end, the
59:04
Speaker 6: Black community in general. And so I personally, you.
59:08
Speaker 2: Know, I am.
59:09
Speaker 6: Always hope. for the best. I'm a hopeless optimistic in
59:13
Speaker 6: that regard, man, because for, you know, for our state,
59:18
Speaker 6: for this community, for this country to begin the healing
59:22
Speaker 6: process that we need to begin, that we are, justice
59:26
Speaker 6: is so long overdue in so many instances, I am
59:29
Speaker 6: hoping for the best outcome. And I am calling on
59:34
Speaker 6: the people who are leading the investigation and those who
59:37
Speaker 6: are going to ultimately make the decision. Because after the
59:40
Speaker 6: findings of the investigation, it still has to go to
59:42
Speaker 6: the district attorney in Kenosha County. So I am very
59:47
Speaker 6: prayerful and hopeful that the right decision will be made.
59:51
Speaker 5: So.
59:54
Speaker 1: There's a clip going around of Kenosha County Sheriff David
59:56
Speaker 1: Beth saying at a 2018 press conference, some people aren't
1:00:00
Speaker 1: worth saving. We need to build warehouses, put these people
1:00:02
Speaker 1: into it and lock them away for the rest of
1:00:03
Speaker 1: their lives. Let's stop them from going out and getting
1:00:06
Speaker 1: 10 other women pregnant. Let's stop being politically correct. How
1:00:10
Speaker 1: do you even begin to react to a statement like
1:00:12
Speaker 1: that from a law enforcement official in your state?
1:00:16
Speaker 6: It's just all the worst stuff. And it speaks to
1:00:19
Speaker 6: the culture of policing. And, you know, I get it.
1:00:21
Speaker 6: There are people still, you know, and I I know
1:00:23
Speaker 6: police officers personally have friends who are police officers. This
1:00:27
Speaker 6: speaks to the bigger problem of policing, not any individual
1:00:30
Speaker 6: good or bad apple. And if there are sheriffs like
1:00:34
Speaker 6: Sheriff Beck who would be so audacious to say stuff
1:00:37
Speaker 6: like that, it speaks to the need for us to
1:00:39
Speaker 6: have an entire culture shift. Policing in America cannot continue
1:00:44
Speaker 6: the way that it is going right now because there
1:00:47
Speaker 6: are still people who are in charge who think this way.
1:00:49
Speaker 6: If there are people who are in charge who think
1:00:51
Speaker 6: this sort of way, Think about subordinates in police departments
1:00:55
Speaker 6: across the country. Think about their far out wild ideas
1:01:00
Speaker 6: about how to handle a population. It's scary. And I'll
1:01:04
Speaker 6: be very honest in saying that it's scary, right? Because
1:01:06
Speaker 6: you take this title of Lieutenant Governor, I'm just another
1:01:09
Speaker 6: black dude to them, right? I'm 33 years old, got
1:01:12
Speaker 6: a couple of tattoos. I'm walking down the street. Who
1:01:14
Speaker 6: knows how they will handle me? So I think about
1:01:17
Speaker 6: that every time these instances occur. happen, they take place.
1:01:21
Speaker 6: Anytime you hear something as egregious as what Sheriff Beth said.
1:01:27
Speaker 6: There isn't a package of legislation that's going to change that.
1:01:30
Speaker 6: There isn't necessarily anything that a city council can do.
1:01:37
Speaker 6: This just goes back to the need for us to
1:01:40
Speaker 6: update the reason why people even get into law enforcement.
1:01:44
Speaker 6: What kind of situation should this person even handle? Imagine
1:01:47
Speaker 6: this you know, you go into a situation that's already
1:01:52
Speaker 6: intense and your frame of mind is that people should
1:01:54
Speaker 6: be locked up behind bars forever. That means you're so
1:01:57
Speaker 6: out of touch and you are liable to do anything.
1:01:59
Speaker 6: And if you feel that you should be the police, judge, jury,
1:02:03
Speaker 6: executioner that, you know, deciding the fate of these people's lives,
1:02:07
Speaker 6: you know, imagine if you don't have faith in the
1:02:10
Speaker 6: court system that day and you decide, well, yeah, I'll
1:02:12
Speaker 6: just take this person's life into my own hands. I'll
1:02:15
Speaker 6: make the decisions. And that's how power hungry a lot
1:02:18
Speaker 6: of these leaders in law enforcement and far too many
1:02:22
Speaker 6: officers in general are.
1:02:23
Speaker 1: So you mentioned, obviously, a legislative response isn't sufficient, but
1:02:28
Speaker 1: it's where we start. You know, you and Governor Evers
1:02:30
Speaker 1: have called the Wisconsin legislature back into session. What does
1:02:35
Speaker 1: a legislative response begin to look like that might start
1:02:38
Speaker 1: dealing with some of these issues?
1:02:40
Speaker 6: But that's the thing. It takes everything. There are so
1:02:42
Speaker 6: many smaller pieces, man. And I was I just got
1:02:46
Speaker 6: off of a faith call, actually. And I said we
1:02:48
Speaker 6: need leaders in the business community, leaders in the faith community,
1:02:52
Speaker 6: leaders in obviously in politics, but leaders in general. Everybody
1:02:57
Speaker 6: has to step up and play their role when it
1:02:59
Speaker 6: comes to our legislature. They haven't met in four months, man.
1:03:02
Speaker 6: We are in the middle of compounded crises in Wisconsin
1:03:06
Speaker 6: and they still haven't met. And that speaks to, one,
1:03:11
Speaker 6: their abdication of responsibilities. You know, they'll look at a
1:03:14
Speaker 6: fire and say, oh, man, there's a fire. Somebody should
1:03:16
Speaker 6: really put out that fire. But they have the hose
1:03:19
Speaker 6: and they don't want to share the hose. And that's
1:03:21
Speaker 6: them not wanting to share their responsibility in governing this state.
1:03:25
Speaker 6: And so, yeah. The legislative response, I mean, that's a
1:03:30
Speaker 6: bare minimum, but there is opportunity for us to do
1:03:33
Speaker 6: something meaningful. We look at Iowa, they unanimously passed their
1:03:37
Speaker 6: reform package with a Republican legislature and with a Republican governor.
1:03:42
Speaker 6: So there is literally no excuse for legislators in Wisconsin
1:03:46
Speaker 6: to sit on their hands. And I'm not gonna say
1:03:48
Speaker 6: legislators in the process because this is the Republican majority,
1:03:51
Speaker 6: the gerrymandered Republican majority in the legislature that we're talking
1:03:56
Speaker 6: about here in Wisconsin, who's being completely irresponsible while lives
1:04:01
Speaker 6: are being lost continuously, whether it's COVID-19 or whether it's
1:04:06
Speaker 6: the two lives that were taken because this white supremacist
1:04:08
Speaker 6: terrorist drove in from Illinois and killed two protesters and
1:04:12
Speaker 6: injured another. And they are going to continue to sit
1:04:15
Speaker 6: idly by. And not just sit idly by, they're going
1:04:18
Speaker 6: to be shameful on Twitter about it. That's the worst part.
1:04:21
Speaker 6: That's the worst part because they always... They point fingers,
1:04:25
Speaker 6: they blame everything on the administration, and they get on Twitter.
1:04:30
Speaker 6: And that's it, as if they don't have the power,
1:04:32
Speaker 6: as if they don't have 63 out of 99 seats
1:04:35
Speaker 6: in the assembly, as if they don't have 19 out
1:04:37
Speaker 6: of 33 seats in the state senate. They have all
1:04:40
Speaker 6: the ability to change anything that they want to, any law,
1:04:43
Speaker 6: but they refuse to.
1:04:45
Speaker 1: All blame, no responsibility. You were on a call with
1:04:50
Speaker 1: the Milwaukee Bucks last night as they were deciding... to strike,
1:04:54
Speaker 1: to not participate in the game. What was that conversation
1:04:56
Speaker 1: like with the Bucs?
1:04:58
Speaker 6: So this was actually after they decided to not go
1:05:01
Speaker 6: into court. So they were still in the locker room
1:05:02
Speaker 6: at this point. And this is a team who's been
1:05:05
Speaker 6: committed to social justice. I had a chance to visit
1:05:10
Speaker 6: a correctional institution with some players on the Bucs a
1:05:16
Speaker 6: little bit earlier, several months ago. And we had a
1:05:20
Speaker 6: real honest conversation with people, who were behind bars and
1:05:25
Speaker 6: they gave their testimonies about how they ended up there
1:05:30
Speaker 6: and how they look forward to being better citizens. I
1:05:34
Speaker 6: shouldn't even say better, how they look to be more
1:05:36
Speaker 6: productive citizens once they return and warning people about how
1:05:41
Speaker 6: to not end up where they ended up. And the Bucks,
1:05:44
Speaker 6: you know, I can't even speak to, I can't even
1:05:46
Speaker 6: give them the full credit that's due to their interactions
1:05:50
Speaker 6: with when we were there as a part of that visit.
1:05:53
Speaker 6: But this conversation was one about, you know, them wanting
1:05:58
Speaker 6: to genuinely know what can they do after walking off
1:06:02
Speaker 6: the court, because they didn't want it just to be
1:06:04
Speaker 6: some symbolic gesture. They didn't just want to walk off
1:06:06
Speaker 6: the court and that'd be it and nothing else happens.
1:06:09
Speaker 6: And they were genuinely concerned. They asked, they said, well,
1:06:12
Speaker 6: in the last several months, since in the wake of
1:06:15
Speaker 6: George Floyd's killing, what's happened? What's changed? And I say,
1:06:19
Speaker 6: that is a really good question because nothing has changed.
1:06:22
Speaker 6: And in that time, the legislature still hasn't met. And
1:06:25
Speaker 6: there have been, you know, there have been some wins.
1:06:28
Speaker 6: A number of school districts have voted to remove police
1:06:31
Speaker 6: officers from schools, things like that. And that's a small
1:06:36
Speaker 6: piece of the bigger puzzle. And I told them that
1:06:39
Speaker 6: what we really need to change hasn't happened. And one
1:06:41
Speaker 6: of the easiest, one of the most productive ways we
1:06:45
Speaker 6: can start is with action with the legislature, but they
1:06:47
Speaker 6: refused to meet. And, you know, they kept asking questions.
1:06:51
Speaker 6: They kept wanting to know how is that normal for
1:06:53
Speaker 6: them to not meet? What would get them to meet?
1:06:58
Speaker 6: And I said, well, you know, it would help if
1:07:00
Speaker 6: you all called on it because we have different audiences.
1:07:03
Speaker 6: I speak to an already politically engaged audience. I have
1:07:07
Speaker 6: a few people that, you know, who aren't necessarily that
1:07:09
Speaker 6: politically engaged, but your audience is completely different. People are
1:07:12
Speaker 6: going to listen to you. And if you put out
1:07:14
Speaker 6: a call for them to put out a call, it's
1:07:16
Speaker 6: going to be a much different response to me doing so.
1:07:19
Speaker 1: That's good. So Trump and the Republican Party have gone
1:07:23
Speaker 1: all in on law and order at their convention this week.
1:07:26
Speaker 1: They featured the couple from St. Louis who pointed guns
1:07:29
Speaker 1: at Black Lives Matter protesters. Kellyanne Conway.
1:07:32
Speaker 6: Which is out of order. Which is out of order.
1:07:34
Speaker 2: Which is crazy.
1:07:35
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:07:36
Speaker 1: So Kellyanne Conway said this morning, quote, the more chaos
1:07:39
Speaker 1: and anarchy and vandalism and violence, the better it is
1:07:42
Speaker 1: for the very clear choice on who's best on public
1:07:44
Speaker 1: safety and law and order. How much responsibility does Donald
1:07:47
Speaker 1: Trump bear for what's happening in Wisconsin right now?
1:07:50
Speaker 6: I'll tell you, man, they want this stuff to happen.
1:07:52
Speaker 6: They want things to be out of control. They don't
1:07:53
Speaker 6: want to come to a peaceful solution. They see what's
1:07:57
Speaker 6: going on. And they haven't responded. You can look at
1:08:02
Speaker 6: people breaking windows. You can look at damage to property.
1:08:05
Speaker 6: But like I always say, man, this stuff didn't just happen.
1:08:08
Speaker 6: People didn't just wake up and decided that this is
1:08:11
Speaker 6: the way we want to carry out our grievances. It
1:08:13
Speaker 6: happens because people who have an ability to help improve
1:08:18
Speaker 6: the living conditions of people in any community, if they
1:08:22
Speaker 6: aren't responding to the needs of that community, that's how
1:08:24
Speaker 6: a community responds. And this comes from years and generations.
1:08:28
Speaker 6: of trauma, of ill representation, of being ignored. And so
1:08:34
Speaker 6: with Donald Trump in office, you know, he's not solely
1:08:38
Speaker 6: responsible for it, but he is absolutely the person that's
1:08:42
Speaker 6: going to, you know, carry this sort of chaos through
1:08:44
Speaker 6: the finish line. And he is willing to wager our
1:08:49
Speaker 6: democracy and he's willing to wager also, you know, civilized
1:08:56
Speaker 6: society on his reelection. Because, you know, any— they see this.
1:09:02
Speaker 6: Their calculus is that any time a window is shattered,
1:09:05
Speaker 6: that's another vote for Donald Trump. Any time that, you know,
1:09:09
Speaker 6: there is, you know, some damage to property, that's another
1:09:12
Speaker 6: vote being banked for Trump. And that is a dangerous
1:09:16
Speaker 6: campaign strategy. But they don't care. And they have proven
1:09:20
Speaker 6: that they don't care. Instead of bringing in people who
1:09:23
Speaker 6: are ready to come to the table with solutions, you know,
1:09:28
Speaker 6: they want to play to the worst parts of society.
1:09:30
Speaker 6: There is literally no reason that that couple from St.
1:09:32
Speaker 6: Louis should have been given any sort of speaking engagement,
1:09:36
Speaker 6: any prime time slot for any major political party. But
1:09:40
Speaker 6: it just shows that they are willing again to campaign
1:09:44
Speaker 6: on hate and division in any form possible.
1:09:48
Speaker 1: So the New York Times and Politico this morning both
1:09:51
Speaker 1: have stories today that quote Kenosha residents and Wisconsinites of
1:09:55
Speaker 1: both parties, different races saying.
1:09:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do blame me.
1:09:58
Speaker 6: I do blame me in that story.
1:10:00
Speaker 1: Well, so, you know, there's there. Oh, yeah, that's right.
1:10:02
Speaker 1: In the New York Times when I saw that. And so,
1:10:04
Speaker 1: you know, they're either saying it's leading them to vote
1:10:07
Speaker 1: for Trump or it's leading people they know to vote
1:10:09
Speaker 1: for Trump.
1:10:10
Speaker 3: Right.
1:10:10
Speaker 1: The last Marquette poll of the state showed that the
1:10:13
Speaker 1: approval of Black Lives Matter protests went from 61-36 to
1:10:15
Speaker 1: 48-48 in August. That was before Kenosha. made up mostly
1:10:20
Speaker 1: of white voters changing their minds. What do you make
1:10:23
Speaker 1: of all this? And do you share some of these concerns?
1:10:28
Speaker 6: So the thing that, you know, drove people to Trump
1:10:31
Speaker 6: or the thing that people or the thing that, excuse me,
1:10:33
Speaker 6: Trump used to attract voters was fear in the first place,
1:10:37
Speaker 6: whether it was fear of, you know, immigrants when he
1:10:40
Speaker 6: came down the escalator and that was the first thing
1:10:42
Speaker 6: he talked about. So he's going to continue to use fear.
1:10:45
Speaker 6: And we can't let that guide us in our decision
1:10:49
Speaker 6: making because we've always, we should be, I shouldn't say always,
1:10:53
Speaker 6: but we should be striving to be on the right
1:10:55
Speaker 6: side of justice, of fairness and equality. And it is
1:10:59
Speaker 6: a long and difficult road to get there. So I
1:11:02
Speaker 6: don't think people should consider compromising values because when you
1:11:07
Speaker 6: compromise values, you are absolutely compromising people's lives and livelihood.
1:11:12
Speaker 6: So it's not responsible for us to try to go
1:11:14
Speaker 6: down that path. And I've always said, and I even
1:11:17
Speaker 6: got in a little bit of trouble two years ago
1:11:19
Speaker 6: when I said, well, you know, if there are Democrats
1:11:21
Speaker 6: who voted for Obama, then voted for Trump in 2016,
1:11:24
Speaker 6: we may have lost them. You know, we can concede
1:11:27
Speaker 6: that ground because there are so many people who just
1:11:29
Speaker 6: didn't show up to vote in 2016. Those are the
1:11:32
Speaker 6: people that we need to be communicating with because these
1:11:34
Speaker 6: are the people who have not been heard. These are
1:11:36
Speaker 6: the people who truly have not had a voice in
1:11:39
Speaker 6: our democracy. And I still feel that way. I still
1:11:42
Speaker 6: feel that, you know, this is, This is nothing we
1:11:45
Speaker 6: should ever use for politics, these sort of instances. But
1:11:47
Speaker 6: we do need to connect it to politics so people
1:11:50
Speaker 6: know who's making the decisions and who is literally sitting
1:11:54
Speaker 6: and telling you, knowing your face, that you don't deserve justice. No,
1:11:56
Speaker 6: you don't deserve health care. No, you don't deserve to
1:11:59
Speaker 6: have $ 15 minimum wage and access to a union. No,
1:12:03
Speaker 6: you don't deserve to have clean air, fresh water to drink. No,
1:12:06
Speaker 6: you don't deserve everything that we should come to expect
1:12:09
Speaker 6: as Americans. And that is exactly... what Donald Trump and
1:12:13
Speaker 6: Republican Party is the enablers. That is what they are
1:12:16
Speaker 6: telling the American people. They are saying no to you
1:12:19
Speaker 6: and your communities. We have to be more effective in
1:12:21
Speaker 6: communicating that we are on the right side of not
1:12:24
Speaker 6: just history, but the right side of justice.
1:12:27
Speaker 1: Well, so, you know, just to speak about politics, you
1:12:30
Speaker 1: know how to win in a state that narrowly went
1:12:33
Speaker 1: for Trump in 2016. You and Governor Evers won in 2018.
1:12:36
Speaker 1: What piece of advice would you give the Biden campaign
1:12:39
Speaker 1: for these last 68 days in the homestretch?
1:12:42
Speaker 6: Yeah, the last piece of advice I get to the
1:12:44
Speaker 6: Biden campaign is, you know, we have a base and
1:12:50
Speaker 6: as fickle as some of the voters, like you pointed
1:12:54
Speaker 6: out in the New York Times and political articles, as
1:12:57
Speaker 6: fickle as they can be sometimes, there are people who
1:13:02
Speaker 6: would never vote for Republicans, but would potentially vote for us.
1:13:07
Speaker 6: And it's about the message. It's about us communicating our
1:13:11
Speaker 6: need to drive this nation forward, to bring forward the
1:13:15
Speaker 6: policies that will work to improve the lives. And I think,
1:13:18
Speaker 6: you know, I do think the Biden campaign has done
1:13:20
Speaker 6: a pretty solid job, especially, you know, considering, you know,
1:13:24
Speaker 6: pre-Iowa to where we are now. But I think that
1:13:27
Speaker 6: the messages about uplifting Americans in every corner of our
1:13:31
Speaker 6: society is going to be the most effective way, but
1:13:34
Speaker 6: it has to be done in a genuine way. It
1:13:36
Speaker 6: can't be tokenizing. And I posted on Twitter today that,
1:13:40
Speaker 6: you know, November 3rd is not a finish line. It's
1:13:42
Speaker 6: a mile marker, an important mile marker. But we have
1:13:45
Speaker 6: to continue to organize. And I think that the Biden
1:13:48
Speaker 6: campaign has to has to do the best job that
1:13:51
Speaker 6: they possibly can at reaching out to the truly unheard
1:13:56
Speaker 6: and unheard and forgotten voters.
1:13:59
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, thank you so much for joining us.
1:14:02
Speaker 1: And thanks for for all you're doing at a really
1:14:05
Speaker 1: tough moment for your state.
1:14:06
Speaker 6: I appreciate you, man. Uh, things are tough, but, uh, we,
1:14:09
Speaker 6: this is something we will get through and Wisconsin will be,
1:14:12
Speaker 6: will be stronger on the other end, uh, as tough
1:14:15
Speaker 6: as these times are. So I appreciate you giving me
1:14:17
Speaker 6: a chance to talk about this.
1:14:24
Speaker 1: Thanks to Lieutenant Governor Barnes for joining us today. And, uh, oh,
1:14:28
Speaker 1: I guess we'll, I guess we'll talk to you guys
1:14:29
Speaker 1: tomorrow for our, for our post Trump convention speech pod
1:14:33
Speaker 1: with all of us with uh dan and tommy and
1:14:35
Speaker 1: john are going to join us too.
1:14:36
Speaker 2: Right we're we are we're group threading tonight so you
1:14:39
Speaker 2: should watch it with us we will recap it for
1:14:41
Speaker 2: you tomorrow you people cannot get rid of us is
1:14:44
Speaker 2: what i'm.
1:14:44
Speaker 1: Saying nor can we get rid of the fucking republican
1:14:48
Speaker 1: convention so one more day one more day all right
1:14:52
Speaker 1: bye everyone bye Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
1:14:59
Speaker 1: The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is
1:15:03
Speaker 1: Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
1:15:07
Speaker 1: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long,
1:15:11
Speaker 1: Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Rustin, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support.
1:15:16
Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed,
1:15:20
Speaker 1: and Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as
1:15:22
Speaker 1: videos every week.