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"At 17 She Boarded a Plane Alone and Never Went Home Again" · Babes, how did you get here

• 1:33
  Bye.
• 2:00
  The team from my school was like holding the sign, but I was like, oh my God, they're all Asian. Everyone in the airport is Asian. I started crying because I started crying. I was like, oh my God, mom, I really want to call back home. I was like, I want to go back. I think I made a mistake. Which was so different moving to South Africa because
• 2:17
  That side, you could just leave your house at like midnight or one o'clock alone on the streets and everything is fine. You don't have to lock the house. But moving to South Africa, I had to learn about the security system. What? I was like so confused and all this. And being in Cape Town, let's not hide it. I'm black. You know, it's not as easy here to really get into the market and people to actually listen to you. So you have to.
• 2:39
  work extra harder than anybody else, almost, you know, being black, woman, foreigner. Because in South Africa or in Cape Town, you see the gap between the rich and the poor. It's massive. It's massively frustrating too. So it is hard as a black person to try to break out from the poverty, to jump into the other side. Now more than ever, people are thinking about moving abroad. I am April Jackson, traveling the world, finding interesting people who have done just that. They have built lives far from where they started.
• 3:08
  Kay is originally from Botswana, but left home at just 17 to live in Malaysia. A move that exposed her to new cultures, lifelong friendships, and a level of independence that changed her forever. Now a mother, entrepreneur, and a woman living deeply intentionally, she's based here in Cape Town. We have lots to uncover as she speaks honestly about some of the unseen realities about a life elsewhere. But first, I must ask, babes, how did you get here?
• 3:38
  Hi April. Yes, finally nice to meet you. Well, how did I get here? I moved here in 2019 from Singapore. I was meant to just stay for about six months. So when I moved from Singapore, I was pregnant. It's a very long story, but I couldn't stay that side. I had to come home.
• 4:00
  So we had bought the property in South Africa and we wanted to maybe have the baby here because I couldn't stay in Singapore for just six months. Came here in 2019, had the baby, everything was good. And I was meant to go back to Singapore in April. Okay. Yes. But then in March, just more March, yeah, then there was like a hard lockdown during COVID hit and there was a hard lockdown for seven whole months. Right. It was crazy. Yeah.
• 4:24
  So yeah, I mean, I was locked up in a new city that I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anything about it. I just came here because of my situation at the time. And yeah, that's how I'm here now. I never left ever since. I mean, if you know Cape Town, you know how beautiful it is. And yeah. How was it being pregnant at that time when so much was happening in the world?
• 4:46
  Yeah, it was just before. So it was like 2019, just before COVID. So when I got here, it was lovely. I mean, it was just summer in South Africa. But then I had the baby in October. That's when the holiday was like in March. So it was just, it was different. It was scary. One, we were not allowed to go outside. We were not allowed to see anybody. Just like it was me, the baby and the nanny in the house for a whole seven months. My partner was locked up in Singapore. So he couldn't even come here. He was turned away.
• 5:16
  On the last flight to South Africa from Singapore. So when you had the baby, he wasn't here? No, I had the baby when he was here. He went back to travel for work. So he travels back and forth here. So he went back to travel for work. So on his flight back to South Africa, he couldn't come back. They returned the flight and the airport in Cape Town International Airport. It was turned back.
• 5:35
  No. Yeah, so he didn't see his child, his new child, for like seven months. So that was the tough part, too, yeah. But while I was, I mean, during the lockdown time, I was like, okay, let me renovate my house. Just when they opened up the, loosened up the rules a little bit. Sure. So I renovated my house. And then it was meant to be a six-month project, too. And then it turned into a year. And then after a year, I was like, you know, since I'm here, I might as well start a business. Just, you know, yeah, everything was taking longer. I started a business, and we are still here, so...
• 6:02
  Still growing. Take me back to that first move when you were 17. What brought on the move? How did you, were you by yourself when you went to Malaysia? We're dropping new episodes every single week. So make sure you subscribe. You don't want to miss this, babes. And leave a comment and tell me, what do you want to hear out of my next conversation? Your support really helps this community grow. And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking, should they take that next big leap? Babes, send them the podcast.
• 6:32
  Yes. Okay. So I come from a big family. We are like nine siblings and I'm the last one. Oh, you're the baby. I'm the baby of the house. So I've always been like around siblings that are like controlling. Like my word didn't matter, you know. They're like, yeah, yeah, the last one. What do you know? What do you know what I mean? And I had no identity. So I was like, you know, I don't even know who I am. I don't think my parents know who I am because we don't get to spend so much time together because there's so many of us, right? Right.
• 6:57
  So I was like, okay, let me just go overseas and try this. I didn't know anything about this Malaysia's place. I didn't know anything about Asia, but I was like, I've got a scholarship to go, but I was like, okay, I'm gonna jump on this, you know, scholarship and just ride it and go and see.
• 7:11
  But I remember when I landed in the airport, in Kuala Lumpur International Airport, I was like, it just hit me like, oh my gosh, you're 17, you're in this country. And the team from my school was like holding the sign, but I was like, oh my God, they're all Asian. Everyone in the airport is Asian. I started crying because...
• 7:29
  I started crying. I was like, oh my God, Mom, I really want to call back home. I was like, I want to go back. I think I made a mistake. And then the team was like, no, let's just go back. Let's just go to school, do your admission. If you feel the same way in a month, then we'll consider it. But don't. I was sobbing.
• 7:44
  Then, yeah, I went to the school. After, like, a couple of weeks, I wasn't calling my parents anymore. I was actually so busy. I was having fun, living the best life, my best life. It wasn't a boarding school, but I lived in school. Okay. Yeah. And so this is high school? I did A-levels and university there. There, okay. Yes. So after that, I worked there for an events management company for a couple of years. Then I started doing modeling. I quit the job. I was like, you know what, this is just too...
• 8:12
  I'm too constricted here. So I quit the job, I decided to start doing modeling. I traveled around Asia for a couple of years. Then yeah. Can you describe the difference between childhood growing up in Botswana and what you experienced when you got to Malaysia? A huge culture shock. You can just imagine, like just from the food to the language, to the people, it's like a complete, it's like, yeah.
• 8:39
  It's like apples and oranges, really. It's like, yeah, it was a big culture shock, which is what I struggled with the most. But in the end, I ended up just loving that about it, the difference between how parents are, how the schools are, the setup technology-wise. Everything was a little bit more
• 8:57
  advanced, you know, yeah. The food was very spicier than our food. Really? Yes, the Asian food is spicy. But it was really nice, it was the best time, like the time of my life because I get to understand different cultures. Like in Malaysia, you find the Indians, the Malays, and the Chinese, and you get to try all the food, the languages, you know, it's all the holidays.
• 9:19
  religion, all of it. It's very, very deep, like deep in detail. So before we continue, make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below. You will get to choose thumbnails before the episodes go live, pick our next destinations, even recommend guests. I really cannot wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes.
• 9:39
  How often did you get to go home? I would go home once a year. Okay. Yeah. And when you first went home, did you have a different feeling? And the reason I ask this is because it's one thing to grow up in a place and then you leave and you are also transforming, right? It's not just that you're getting to a new place. And I just wondered, was home different for you now that you had had this experience? Yeah.
• 10:01
  Yes, home was completely different for me. I mean, when I got back, right, people like my family were like, you're so different, you're so different. And I was like, maybe this is who I am, because you guys never really gave me a chance. So maybe this is who I am, or, you know, I don't know. Do you know the differences that they were noticing when they said you were different?
• 10:19
  I was a little bit more... I would articulate myself more. I would speak up for myself. I would defend myself. And then I would go out without asking for permission. I was like, I got this. I'm independent now. And, you know, you're going to respect me a little bit. That was a different... I mean, yeah. And just... How else would I say it was different? Like...
• 10:39
  the way people think, the way they do business, it's a little bit more slower, to be honest, in the African side. Okay. Yeah, in Asia, I felt like I was a little bit behind all my schoolmates, because they were a little advanced in education-wise. So I felt that way, and it was very, very open-minded. When I got back home, I was telling them, I was like, you have to be more open, you have to be more receiving, life is not like this. You know, because obviously travel just makes you see things differently.
• 11:06
  respect them and you learn so so much. So when I got back my parents were very impressed like oh my god you are no longer a 17 year old girl, you are 18 year old. Right, yeah. Did you also feel differently about Botswana? Yes, I felt differently about it. Like you know Botswana is a very beautiful country, you know people are nice and friendly and you know our food is great, our culture is also very deep.
• 11:35
  But, yeah, I felt very disconnected when I went back home. I felt like I was almost like a tourist in my own country, you know? Yeah, since I left, I never really wanted to go back and live there because I just saw bigger, better, or I wanted more out of life than just stay. Botswana is a landlocked country, and a lot of people from there don't really like to travel, like go outside much. People would go to school or go to university and still come back home to work from there, but then I realized...
• 12:03
  There's not much opportunity, at least for what I wanted to pursue. There was not much opportunity for me. There was, yeah, it just wasn't, I wasn't connecting with it. Even when I go now, like I was there last year and I'm going this year, I'm just like, wow, let me just do what I got to do. But it is, it is absolutely beautiful. Have you been? No, but I've heard it stunning. It is beautiful, yeah, honestly. And when you say what you wanted to do at that time, what was the goal?
• 12:27
  If I tell you, I wanted to do music production. Okay. I wanted to do music production. So there's not much music culture that side. I wanted to also get into culinary arts. There's not much like a dining, fine dining, I would say that side. And yeah, I wanted to get into fashion, which is what I'm doing now.
• 12:43
  So I wanted to do all those things, which is not really the market, wasn't for me. I don't know how it is now, maybe. It might have changed a lot, but... At the time. At the time, I don't want to tell you how old I am. At the time, it wasn't. At the time, we're not the ones. Yeah, at the time, yeah. So when you're in Malaysia, your first move outside of Malaysia is to where? To move elsewhere, to live. I moved to Singapore after, yeah. I moved to Singapore. So when I was in Malaysia, I got a chance to travel, like, with my work. We did, I went to, like...
• 13:11
  Hong Kong, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, all of the kinds. And this is modeling? Yeah, through modeling I've been to India, Sri Lanka, worked for a lot of different companies. And I met my partner in Malaysia and then dated for a while and we moved to Singapore. I lived in Singapore for six years, which is where I met Dilan's, my friend. Yeah, we lived there for six years. After Singapore, that's when I ended up here. Tell me a bit about life in Singapore.
• 13:40
  Life in Singapore is beautiful, it's developed, it's also a lot of culture, different people, those of the Malays, Indians and the Chinese. Everybody speaks English. It's a very clean country, well organized, very, very safe, which was so different moving to South Africa because
• 14:01
  That side you could just leave your house at like midnight or one o'clock alone on the streets and everything is fine You don't have to lock the house but moving to South Africa to learn about the security system What I was like so confused and all this but no yeah, Singapore is a it's a great city I went back there last year to try to see if I would go back and live there again But I was just like no why it on is still the place for me and
• 14:24
  At the time, it worked. Before I had a kid, it worked. But my son is so like an outdoorsy boy. He loves to play and be outside. And we've already established so many things here, like our friends, the school, everything that matters to him. And to me, the most was just not there. Before, I used to love the warm weather. I used to enjoy all the stuff. But now I'm like, you know what? I want to do my hiking. I want to go to the beach. Singapore, it's very...
• 14:53
  Artificial, if I may say. Yeah, artificial. Where's your partner from? Finland. Oh, really? How did he end up living? In Singapore? In Malaysia, because you met in Malaysia. We met, but he used to travel around the world as well. Yeah, he's like a salesperson. He does, oh my god, this is so embarrassing that I don't know what he does.
• 15:13
  He does something to do with money beds. He works in telecom communications. So they do develop like 5G's or all the phone stuff. Sure. Very cool. He'll probably laugh when he sees this. And then when you decided to move to Cape Town the first time, before going back to Czech, was it just to explore? Because you said you thought you were only going to be here for six months. Yeah.
• 15:38
  Yes, so when I was still dating my partner at the time, we bought this property in Cape Town. We came here just because it was a holiday spot. We came here and we're like, oh my God, we love this city. I said to him, I will live here one day. It was like a manifestation thing also. He said, I'm going to live here one day. So then we bought the property. It was rented out for a while.
• 15:58
  Why I choose Cape Town was the tenant was like they were moving out of the house. And I'm like why go move to another country where we can go to South Africa, have the baby at our house and then come back. And it was okay great. So the tenant moved out. I stayed at the house and that's when everything was like happened. Yeah, but at least I was in my home. For someone who hasn't been to Cape Town, how would you describe life here?
• 16:23
  How you get, I mean Cape Town is like the best city for me in the world, right? Really? Simple things like just going for a hike, like you know, just five minutes away from here you can get into a beautiful hike with beautiful waterfalls, it's for free. People here are super healthy, you know, there's like lots of, even now they said like this sober raves, a lot of exercise, a lot of yoga, a lot of, yeah, healthy lifestyle, you know.
• 16:49
  And the beaches are beautiful. This country, like South Africa itself, is just so beautiful. Different cultures, so much history, so much tradition. And the standard of living is so good. And the cost of living compared to having lived in Singapore, I lived in a small little apartment, like a three-bedroom apartment. Yeah, and here I can get, I have a huge house and all, sorry to, yeah, but it's like life is, life is so much easier. Like the life I live there is completely different from the life I live here.
• 17:19
  And the property market is great right now. We get a lot of investors and you know, it's where it's at at the moment. In terms of your son, culturally at home, is it, are you feeling like influences of Finland and Botswana in your home? What does home feel like?
• 17:36
  You know, it's funny. I was talking to my friend the other day about this. We were like, you know, how is he going to sound like his accent? Is he going to sound like me? Is he going to sound Cape Tonian or Finnish? So there's no way he's going to sound Finnish at all because we don't speak Finnish at home. Which is quite bad, actually. We should. Do you speak Finnish? No, I don't. Okay. I don't speak my language to him either. You don't? No. And it's really so bad for me. It's very unfortunate. But I'm going to get him into like maybe French lessons or something because he has to speak some other language.
• 18:01
  But I mean, at school they get to learn like Xhosa and Afrikaans. So at least he gets that. But I failed in that sense. Let me not say failed. It's not too late. Yeah, it's not too late. It's never too late. It's never too late. Yeah. But in terms of culture, like the vibe, is it just an international household or are there things that are particular to your upbringing in Botswana that you have brought into your motherhood or things that you have denied?
• 18:29
  Things that I've denied. I mean, I was brought up in a Christian household, and I am completely, like, I am a free thinker. I don't, yeah, I'm not into religion. So I raise them my way, which is, like, teaching more morality than religion. So I would say culturally, I still follow what I choose from my culture that I agree with. And so any things that I don't agree with, I take them out, like, yeah.
• 18:54
  Yeah, I don't agree with certain things. Yeah, it's just... What does it mean to have a Botswana upbringing? I mean... What do you mean? So, like, Jamaican upbringing. When I think of a Jamaican upbringing, I think of firm but fair. You know, like, I think that my dad just had to give me the look and I would know... Yes, you know to shut up. Just whatever you're doing. To fix yourself. Just don't do that, you know? I think a lot about, like,
• 19:21
  If I compare the UK, for example, to Jamaica, one of the things that really stands out to me is that I find the UK quite anti-competitive. So you're not allowed to want to be the winner. They give participation medals at sports day. So you just get a medal for turning up, which would never happen in Jamaica because we're taught from a very young age to be competitive and it doesn't have to be toxic in order to win. I think of the food that we're eating. I think that...
• 19:47
  there are certain dishes that my children have to eat because I want them to know about their culture through food. I think of the fact that my children know Bob Marley songs, you know, even though... Yes, my son loves Bob Marley. But so these are like the things that are important to me in my children's upbringing, that even though we're not in Jamaica...
• 20:05
  I want them to have a sense of Jamaican culture. So I do take him whenever, like whenever I get to travel back home, I do take my son so he can like get into it, you know, learn about his roots. I take him to our farm so he can like, you know, learn how or understand and experience how I grew up. We used to go to the farm every school holidays. So I take him there. And the food, he's a picky eater regardless, like in any other place.
• 20:29
  He doesn't want to try new things. So food-wise, it's difficult. And then the language part, I'm working on it. But as I said. But, yeah, my parents were very, very strict. That's also one of the reasons why I wanted to get away. My parents were strict and would get spanked a lot. Okay. Getting yelled at. Sorry, Mom, but you did. And you, Dad, like you did. But...
• 20:50
  So yeah, I don't do that with my son. I don't spank. I don't believe in corporal punishment. I think it's just it didn't work with me, so I don't think it will work with him. Right. Maybe. Yeah. But to each their own. Right. Yeah. And what does a finish like? What does your partner
• 21:05
  Yeah, my partner is much more relaxed, I would say, than me. I teach my son to be strong and defend yourself, stand up for yourself. And he'll be like, no, let him be himself, chill. Because Finnish people are very relaxed, they're very quiet.
• 21:23
  very reserved and I on the other side I'm just like let's go but uh yeah so we're trying to both like I mean put our impact on him teach him a little bit of this and that I were in Finland for like I think two months last year and we're gonna go back this year just for him to also connect yes learn the language understand where he comes from and it's like we go there every summer like in June July
• 21:46
  So he's been doing that for a while. I'm just staying connected. I think I'll go to Botswana like early this year as well. Yeah. How has motherhood changed you? Oh, yeah. Motherhood, hey? It's crazy, right? When I think of when I thought about having a baby, I didn't think it was going to be anything like this, I tell you.
• 22:04
  Can you tell me what you thought it was and then take me to what it is? You know, I thought I would have a baby, dress him cute, he would listen to me. We would go to the mall together, do all the stuff. When it's time for bed, he would go to bed and be quiet. But no, it's not. From, you know, like giving birth to them, they depend on you 100%. And so these kids like depend on you to teach them pretty much every single thing from how they eat to what's good and what's not, to manners, to...
• 22:31
  you know, just being humans and being great humans. And it's such a tough job, honestly, being a parent, because you have to teach these humans to be good humans, you know, give them education, everything, all this stuff. So for me, I didn't think it entailed this much. You know, I think maybe because of how my parents raised me, they were not
• 22:50
  hands on. But now I am like, I need to know every single part of my son's life. I plan everything. I want to be involved. And the younger me would have never thought I'd be this, you know, mom who is really involved. And then every weekend I'm like, I have to spend time with my son. The schedule is this. We're seeing this. And what's important to him is important to me. What's the hardest thing about this journey? The hardest thing about this journey is like trying to balance motherhood with work and businesses.
• 23:15
  I've been trying to push work so much the last couple of years and trying to be present for my son to go to his play dates with him, to go to parties and the school events. It's a lot, but I'm, you know, I try to do it. I'm sure you have experienced that too with two babies, right? Yeah.
• 23:35
  Yeah. They're twins. Twins. It's funny. I think people think that twins are harder than they are. But I think that the universe knew that I needed twins. And I'm not... There was a long time that I never thought that I would be a mother anyway. And so to be one, it's funny because when you don't have children, nobody wants your opinion on parenting. Because it's like you don't have an opinion. Yeah, pretty.
• 23:58
  Which I find strange because we've all been children, right? And we all have the ability to reflect and analyze. And so there were things that I thought before motherhood, but I would always leave room for the benefit of the doubt that I don't have them yet. So maybe my ideas are completely wrong. Now having children, I've just leaned in to what I thought and I kind of don't have that space anymore because I now have two and I'm executing exactly what I thought it was going to be.
• 24:27
  But I think personally, having businesses has helped me manage children in the sense that, you know, I had restaurants and my team were an extension of my family. They were my children before I had children. I didn't know it at the time. So the same sort of approaches, you know, if my chef does something wrong.
• 24:46
  on a friday i can't just go into the kitchen and start shouting because we still have customers to serve yeah and so i feel like i was trained how to before yeah before they came no for me it's it's but yeah it's a journey but i'm really loving it i'm learning so much from my son you know like patience and how to make friends and how to be kind and you know how to be cute yeah so what is the culture around children in south africa
• 25:13
  The culture around children, I think around, at least my group of friends, or the kids that we hang out with, the moms are so, the parents are very involved. The kids are very, they're respectful, they are open, they learn about all the cultures. And yeah, I remember when I was studying, my son started grade one this month, last month,
• 25:34
  And I asked at the school, I was looking at all the schedules, I'm like, I have to be in this meeting and this meeting. Like, why? Like, why do I have to? And they're like, you chose this school because of our education system where parents have to be involved. You have to know what's happening in your child's life. So I was like, okay, I got to snap into it and now know that this is what I have to do and be a...
• 25:53
  Part of my life. And since then, I'm just really enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it. But from how I was raised was nothing like this. I would do my own homework by myself while I ask my siblings to help me. If nobody helps me or if I don't do it myself, I'm going to get my ass whooped in school. And here, it's like you've got to open your child's bag, see what they have, and all of that stuff. So it's been interesting. This is something that I think about in terms of my upbringing.
• 26:19
  I was given a lot of responsibility quite early, right? So I see where that could have gone left. It could have gone wrong in the sense that I had a lot of autonomy. You know, I tell the driver where to pick me up from. My parents aren't necessarily telling him what my schedule is, right? Or you would organize your own kind of extra lessons and they would leave the money for you, you would pay the teacher, but you could have run off with the money, right? Like there's just opportunities that I see could have gone a different way. But luckily I wanted to be good.
• 26:48
  Like I liked being good. And also I imagine that perhaps if my parents felt that I wasn't going to be good, then perhaps I wouldn't have had as much leeway. There's a bit of a balance. Yeah, that's true. In the sense that, yes, they were both workaholics, but they may have acted differently if you also didn't kind of step up to the plate. Yeah, like they trusted you. They knew what to do.
• 27:09
  And I think that that has really helped me in terms of maturity and independence. However, like you, I don't think I would give my child that much free reign. You know what I mean? But there's a weird balance because I think modern times, we're almost a little bit too the other way in the sense that I see where children aren't given enough room to also take responsibility. Something as simple as travel, a really good example.
• 27:38
  Right. So my children from about three and a half, they've had their own suitcase. Right. So I will say this is what goes into the suitcase. But you put the things in the suitcase. You have to carry the suitcase. There have been times where initially they love the suitcase. Right. Because it's like a cute, fun thing. And maybe after flight number three, they're kind of like, oh, well, I don't really want to carry the suitcase anymore. And even though I could put the suitcase on the trolley.
• 28:01
  I say to them, no, you have to carry the suitcase because you asked to have your own suitcase. You have the suitcase. I know it's your responsibility. Whereas I think that a lot of modern parents would take the suitcase. I do. I am one of the modern parents. You're the modern parent. You take the suitcase. I'll take the suitcase because I'm like this. I choose my own battles. This is the battle. I'm not going to be fighting with this kid in the airport. But the thing is, there's zero fight, right? I've said take the suitcase. My child takes the suitcase. And the thing is, the reason I laugh is because I can totally see both ways.
• 28:31
  I'm not sure that the relinquishing of children having responsibility is serving them later on. So my question is, do you think that because we were all raised a particular way of a certain era, and yes, we can identify what maybe needs a bit of tweaking, do you think that we've gone too far the other way?
• 28:53
  Yeah, I think so. I think in my case, too, like I do. I do understand what you are saying with you, but I feel like my son will call my bluff. For example, I'll be like, you know, I'm going to leave you in this airport if you're not going to carry a suitcase. But don't say that because you're not going to leave him.
• 29:08
  He knows that. And he knows that. And then that's the thing. See, I always say, I was laughing with my sister because at the airport, I have seen, right? A parent says, if you don't do this, I'm going to leave you here. Babe, you have the ticket. You're at the airport. You have no one to look after said child. You are not relinquishing the ticket. We all, everybody knows, right? In doing the neighborhood.
• 29:28
  people they are so smart they know yeah and then he'll be like yeah my mom i'm gonna stay here it's fine and i walk a couple of meters and i'm like god damn it let me give it to me so the solution is not to make the threat that we all know yeah and my mom was exactly like they do she would threaten me and then she would and i'm doing the same thing i'm like i need to get i need to do better actually
• 29:46
  No, you're right. That's so funny. Yeah, you're right. Because I was literally talking about this the other day. Oh, that's, yeah. But I get it. I mean, you know, we're all doing this for the first time. We're all doing this for the first time. But yeah, I mean, there's different ways to skin a cat in them.
• 30:00
  I'm sorry, but yeah, I need to change my ways as well. Because I try to do the whole gentle parenting, and sometimes I find myself snapping at him or all these things, and I'm like, okay, I never used to like it when my mom did that. I never used to like it when she did this. But then we do kind of mirror our parents a little bit, and we try to take out what we didn't like as much as we can and try to do better. I feel like our generation is...
• 30:26
  parenting better than our parents did. I'm not saying they did a bad job, I'm just saying that I do things a lot different than the UCR. When you decided to start your business, can you tell me was there something that happened that made you think this is the time?
• 30:44
  Yeah, well I just, so how I started my business, I love clothing, I love dressing up, and I would go to like a shop and then I'll pick out like an outfit, and I'd be like, okay, I could tweak it here, I could tweak it there, I would look better if it's like this for my body. So I started making clothing that I would wear myself, I would buy from different stores, and then I'll fix them.
• 31:04
  And then I was like, okay, so why don't I just, it takes time to also make alterations. Why don't I just make this thing myself, you know? And then I'll start to think, okay, if I don't like this fabric, maybe I should visit fabric stores and start, you know, trying the materials, working it out, making samples. And then people started, like, asking me, what are you wearing? I'm like, oh, it's actually, I made it myself. I made it myself. And then, oh, yeah, can I have it? So I started, that's how I started, like, really making people's, like, clothing, yeah. Yeah.
• 31:29
  And it was just like a normal everyday wear that I would design for different clients. But then I was like, you know what, I do actually love corporate wear. And I saw like a gap in the market where, you know, in South Africa, for example, there's only a couple of brands that you go to that sell corporate wear, like ready to wear. And then if you want like nice corporate clothes, you got to go to like suit makers so they can make you something and it takes time.
• 31:53
  two to three weeks for you to get your item you keep going back and forth for fitting and sometimes you end up not liking it so I was like okay let me grab the hoop the bull by the horns and start my own thing where now I can have my customers come to me I'd make you sick ass pieces with beautiful fabrics that are like you know yeah top top tier fabrics and um yeah we make that's what I pretty much do amazing yeah have there been any specific challenges to opening a business here?
• 32:21
  Yeah, you know, the challenges in the industry, because obviously I'm not from here, so it's hard being in the fashion business. And my business also, we focus as well in hotels and restaurants. We do the uniforms for them. So it's a very tough industry to get into because we find these old companies that are from here that have been doing this for years. And then me coming in as a foreigner and as a woman younger person.
• 32:44
  trying to penetrate, it's a little bit hard. And being in Cape Town, let's not hide it, I'm black. You know, it's not as easy here to really get into the market and people to actually listen to you. So you have to work extra harder than everybody else almost. You know, being black, a woman, foreigner, crazy. Yeah. And I also have another company, we do landscaping. And in this company, I get to work with a lot of men
• 33:07
  and coming in as a girl and trying to tell them how to hold a hoe, you know, and how to work, it's like, it's challenging, but then you have to like put on my big girl panties and be like, things gotta be done, things gonna be done this way. There's time for playing this, yeah, there's like standards and things that has to be done, yeah. But it's been- What are the race dynamics here?
• 33:27
  The race dynamics, in terms of business or- In terms of living here. Living here, I was just talking to my friend on our way here. There was one period where a homeless person asking us for money on the side of the road. I think you've seen a lot of those. And he was asking, do you think they actually get money? How do you think they make a living? I'm like, it's quite hard. I wonder how much they make per day there. Because in South Africa or in Cape Town, you see the gap between the rich and the poor. It's massive. It's massively frustrating too.
• 33:54
  So it is hard as a black person to try to break out from the poverty, to jump into the other side, you know, with less opportunities. You don't go to the same schools, you know, you don't shop in the same malls, kind of like, yeah, based on really where you come from and how you are. Race and like your social, like, yeah.
• 34:12
  Do you think that as a foreigner, because you're not South African, it helps in the sense that, for example, when I was in Vietnam, they clearly have... Were you in Hanoi or... So I've been to a few places. The last time I was in Da Nang and Hoi An, but I've been to Ho Chi Minh. I've been to Ho Chi Minh, it's beautiful. Yeah. But they have a really interesting race dynamic in the sense that to insult a woman, you say you have beautiful brown skin, right? To insult a Vietnamese woman.
• 34:41
  Because when I was there in August, they were fully closed. Oh, because they don't want to get darker yet. They don't want to get darker, right? That's the thing, yeah. And so there's clearly some tension there. However, what I found interesting was that I didn't feel like their internal race rules applied to me. Because I'm clearly not Vietnamese. Yes, yeah. And so I just wondered, in South Africa...
• 35:02
  Yes, I feel you. Internally, they have their prejudices within the culture. I just wondered if because you're not from here, do those prejudices still apply to you? They do still apply to me. They do still apply to me. But you know what? I'm just like...
• 35:17
  I won't let that stop me. You know, there will be so many obstacles in this life, but you just don't let them stop. You just keep going and keep going. And in the end, I feel like, yeah, people will see race. People will be mean or racist. But if you do let your work speak for yourself, then they would stop and then they will listen. So the challenge is just to get them to listen. The challenge is to get them to listen, yeah. But once you get them to see your work, you feel like after that. They respect after that. Whether you are black or white, you have to respect somebody's work and be like, yo, you do good or you don't like in that way. Yeah. But the race thing, it's an issue. I mean,
• 35:47
  In South Africa especially, it's still so new. It was in 1994 when the, you know, the epithet, you know, was ended. So you can still see that social gap in, I think, even just driving around the city, you can see who lives on this side of the city, and then the other side of the highway is the poor community. The other side is, like, with better, you know, sanitation, everything.
• 36:06
  So you still see it quite a lot. For people that think that Africa is one place, when they just speak about Africa as this, it's like just one local country, not appreciating that there is so much diversity, so many countries within the continent of Africa. How would you describe the differences between Botswana culture and South African culture?
• 36:25
  Our cultures are very similar, hey? My dad is from South Africa, actually, and then my mom is from Pasana, but we were raised and born that side. So I would say the cultures are very similar, but I remember when we were in school, like the preconceived notions about Africa overseas is insane. We have arguments with the other kids from school, and they'd be like, oh, yeah, go back to Africa and climb the trees. I'm like, do what in the trees? Like, climb in them and do what? They'd be like...
• 36:48
  Go and chase lions. I'm like, chase lions, would you? Are you crazy? So people have, like, this idea that, like, you know, Africa is so backwards. Africa is, you know, yeah. I mean, it is backwards in some way, but it's not, like, what people actually think. Like, you know, like, it's one big whole country. It's like so many different cultures. So many countries in here were also, yeah, so different. Yeah.
• 37:13
  But I would say the Southern African culture is pretty similar. We eat similar food. We kind of also look similar. I don't know, somebody from West Africa looks different from somebody from East Africa. Have you picked that out yet? Yes. You have picked it, yeah. And then our hair is slightly different as well, here and there. Do you feel like there is a oneness within the country? Like, do you feel, for example, for me and the Caribbean, right, you have different islands. And you'll be, if you're outside of the Caribbean...
• 37:42
  So let's say I'm in England and there's like someone from Trinidad. I'm like, oh, my Trini brethren, right? There's like a vibe because we're all outside. Yes. But within the Caribbean, like if I'm in Jamaica,
• 37:55
  and there's a Truni person, it's not the same feeling, because I'm home, I'm in Jamaica, do you get what I'm saying? So I'm just wondering if, when you're from Botswana, but you're in South Africa, because you're technically neighbors, is it like, yeah man, my sister, or is it like- When we see each other, like somebody from Botswana, or like how? So you being in Botswana, but living in South Africa, is the reception like, oh, my sister from Botswana, because you're just the neighbor up the road, or is it like, you're from Botswana, and we're South Africans?
• 38:20
  No, it's like, yeah, it's like my sister from Botswana because at the same time, we speak the same language here. Okay. Like somebody from Jorbeck pretty much speaks Tawana like me and people from like the northern province speak Tawana so we can understand each other. So in a way, we understand like we're very much similar. Yeah, the cultures are very, very close.
• 38:37
  But if I meet somebody from overseas, like if we're overseas and I meet somebody from South Africa or from Uganda or from anywhere, I'll be like, yo, brother, what's good? How are you doing out here? Yeah. Did you choose Cape Town because of nature versus another city? I would not live in any other city because I had been to Joburg so many times growing up. Some of my family lived there. Okay.
• 38:57
  But, yeah, I've never wanted to live there. It's too busy. It's too hectic for me. Again, Cape Town is a busy city at the same time, but it's still like I'm on holiday here and I have work. After this, I'm going for a hike, you know, just changing my gear and going for a hike. So it's like there is so much more that you get from this city than any other. I think it's, yeah. Yeah.
• 39:17
  In that sense, I would say. You said that two years ago, you feel like there was a distinct change in your life. Can you tell me what was this change?
• 39:30
  I think just with my life and my goals and how I was going about it. Remember I told you I had a friend group, like a friend group, but I was still, I had a business, but I wasn't as focused as I am right now. I had too many distractions, too many outside noises, little drama, little girl stuff. But the moment I stepped aside, I stepped back from that, I took time off actually, went back to Asia
• 39:57
  for about eight months. I took a break from everything. It was a lot for me. I was like, okay, let me take a break and then focus on other things. Took my son out of school. We moved to Asia. That's when I knew that I cannot live there again. But when I was there, I got time to really reflect on myself, where I want to be in life, who I want to be around. Because although I lived, so when we went back to Malaysia, so when I was there, I had a big social group also in Malaysia.
• 40:22
  out a lot, doing stuff, like I said, travel, so I knew a lot of people. But when I went back there, I did connect with them, but the connection had died down. Right? It's been a couple of years, many years, actually, since we've all been together, like being parents and all these different life paths. And
• 40:42
  So I had enough time to spend all by myself. Like I would take my son to school, then I have time to sit on my own and think about what I really want, think about my friends here, my friends there. Then I was like, okay, I'm not gonna see anybody here. I'm gonna focus on myself. Started doing more healthy eating, cleansing, waking out, and just, yeah,
• 41:03
  journaling, understanding myself, having time to think. So when I got back, I was like a whole different person of like my lifestyle, my friends, all of that stuff really changed and focused more on business, being more resilient
• 41:19
  Yeah, like not listening to the silly things outside and like just really picking people in my life that are positive, that are not dramatic, that are understanding my journey, my boundaries. This is what it is and this is where we are. If you were a part of my life back then and you think that I'm there now, it's just not the same. So are we going to evolve together or are we not? So the people that I have in my life now are people that want to evolve with me and grow together.
• 41:43
  During that break, did you stop operating your businesses? Yes, so I should have told you earlier that there was one thing I didn't want to discuss was my previous business. It was my business partner that we had to split. That's why one of the reasons why I also left, that's why I say like even when I had the business with her, it was not too much focus was like, yeah, I don't want to talk about it. That's fine, no problem. So you're in Malaysia and you return back to South Africa.
• 42:11
  After that, then we were there for a few months, and then my husband and I were sitting and we're thinking like, okay, what do we do? I told him like, hey, look, I'm in the house. I'm in the apartment most of the time, the small apartment most of the time. He had work and my son had school. He had things to do, so I had more time alone. And I'm like, I cannot be living like this. I cannot be just home on my computer all day. Like I said, it's humid outside. You can't just go for walks. You cannot just do anything outdoor.
• 42:38
  And that's what I love. I'm like, I'm not outdoor. I'm not working. I'm not doing anything. I'm not happy. You know, let's go back. And he tried to fight it for a couple of months. And we did stick around. And then when my son was like, Mom, I really miss my friends. I just want to go back home. I don't want to be here anymore. Then he was like, okay, I get it, guys. Let's go. At least we tried, you know. So South Africa is home. To me, I feel like since the first time I came to Cape Town, it's just been like this is just home for me, yeah.
• 43:08
  And because of nature, because of the people, because of the ease of life. Because of the ease of life, because of, yeah, I really feel at home. It's...
• 43:18
  the connections that I've made here, the culture, the history, business is, I think for me business is easy here, there's better opportunities for me here. I can, it's funny because I can navigate the system better here than I could in Singapore. I couldn't do a business, I couldn't start anything, you know, but being here I have an opportunity to do like three different companies, three different things and it's all going great, you know, so why would I want to live anywhere else?
• 43:44
  I mean, I would get a holiday house somewhere. Who wouldn't, right? And when you move here, is it easy to create your own community and find friends that are aligned? I think so. I think when you find the activities that you want to do, like if you're going for yoga, you eventually make yogi friends.
• 44:01
  If you're going to the beach, you're going to have beach hunts with you. Yeah, so I think it's easy. People are very friendly, you know. Now I have my social circle. Like, it's insanely big. Every weekend I have somebody to see. And, yeah, it was very easy for me to make friends, honestly.
• 44:17
  And through those friends, you'll meet other friends. And through business, you'll make other connections. And through, I tell you, I make most of my friends through my son. He's a social person. He loves to go to play dates. So through that, I've met so many people.
• 44:33
  It's crazy. I have a launch event now. We're opening our showroom here in Loop Street. And I was looking at my guest list. I'm planning to have 40 people at the party. I've invited about 120. And about 60 of them are from my son's school.
• 44:52
  I'm from my son's school. So he is, yeah, in a way, with the parents, with the drop-offs, with the play dates. I get to make a lot of friends. And, yeah, I just work really. Even going for walks, you can just find somebody who's walking and you just have a conversation and you become walking friends. How did you choose your son's school?
• 45:08
  How did I choose my son's school? That's funny because I didn't really get to choose it. Where he was in, we had like this play school which was really, really cool. It's called Deberrin Play School. So it's all about like nature. Kids were like, we had a beautiful garden. They had horses, pigs, guinea pigs, birds, you know, all kinds. So they had like time to play with them, feed them. And all the kids that he connected with in the school were going to this school, this primary school. So that's how I chose it.
• 45:35
  all because of his friends. But I don't know if I would have chosen a different school. I would have probably chosen, like, the American International School. Okay. But then again, I would want him to speak another language. And they don't do that? No. Even where he is going currently, they just, yeah. They do learn other languages, but it's mostly English. Okay.
• 45:52
  But yeah, if I could, if I had a choice, I would have maybe chosen like the French school or something. But then again, also, I'm in Constantia, which is out of town a little bit. So most of the schools are here. Okay. Yeah. So it's a bit of a trick. So it's a bit of a trick. Yeah, in a way it was like, yeah. And some of my mommy friends took their schools to like all boys schools. I was just like, I'm not into that really. What's your take on that?
• 46:16
  In terms of single sex education? Yeah, single sex education. So when I was 13, I first went to an all girls boarding school. The reason I chose it was I put together a PowerPoint presentation to tell my children, my parents, why sending me to boarding school was not like,
• 46:32
  for unwanted kids because they have this idea that boarding school was just for parents who didn't want their children. And I just found a statistic that single-sex boarding schools were more successful academically than mixed boarding schools. Now, my relationship with schooling is a bit of a question mark in the sense that because we're moving around all the time, Yes.
• 46:53
  My children are homeschooled. And I would have to really find a school that aligned with my values. I'm very particular. I'm happy to be the problem. I've seen you on your Instagram. I was like, you know, I thought I was healthy. I thought I was all about this stuff. But then April, you take it to a whole other level. I love it. But that is my personality. It's a bit extreme. And I know that. And that's it's not for everyone. That's fine. But like my old school, I feel like I really thrived in my old school in Jamaica because it was small.
• 47:22
  And so you are able, it really taught me how to navigate the system, right? Like it taught me that if this is the rule and you have a way to convince someone that for you, there should be a different rule, it gave me the space to do that in a way that a large school with thousands of students wouldn't. You know you would. Because you're just another student, right? Rather than being an individual. So although, and I thrived academically, which I think sometimes surprises people because I'm not necessarily blindly pro normal education.
• 47:52
  But I do see where there are benefits to homeschooling and to appreciating that children are individuals. And although I did really well in a normal school environment, that's not necessarily going to be the case for my children. Yeah. Like even between the girls, I see very different personalities, different approaches to work in a way that I'm not sure you can have that kind of tailor-made education. But if I went like,
• 48:18
  to a school and felt that there weren't screens all over the place and that they had good food and nutrition and that was a priority for example a friend of mine his sons went to school in Mexico and you weren't allowed to bring food from outside of the school so in the school you had to consume what was prepared because they were particular
• 48:38
  Yes, but that part I get. But for example, I've seen all your videos and what you're talking about right now. My son is very particular about what he eats. He would rather starve than eat anything green. Sure. Right? So for the current school, they do a lot of, you have to bring a lunchbox, but it's nothing unhealthy. So there's no candy, no cookies, none of that. So it's like fruits and veggies.
• 49:00
  And then, I mean, he still comes back home with them, but at least he had like a little bite of one or two, three. But if they were to be so strict with the food, then he wouldn't eat all day. Sometimes if I make dinner at home, he doesn't eat at all. If it's what he doesn't want to eat, he would rather go to bed hungry, which is crazy. But also where I went to school, it was like public schools. It was a lot of kids in the classroom, right? We never got attention from my teacher, like individual attention. Hello. There were like 40 of us in one class. How are you going to get attention?
• 49:30
  So for my kid, I wanted different. He gets to be like 20 and they get like this private school experience where he has all the attention from the teachers. For us, if you didn't hustle for yourself, if you didn't work hard, you would not make it. You would just be one of the statistics, yeah. So yeah, we had to push it a little bit more. And then we had to like also like
• 49:49
  fight for yourself, fight to be heard, fight to be, I think this is why I'm like this, I've been fighting, my God, I need to stop fighting. Everything is fine. Everything is fine now. But like, no, the education system that we had, I feel like it was what I needed to push me, like the trajectory that I needed to push me to be tougher, to be, I don't know if it's what I needed, but it is what it is. Yeah, so for my son, I see him like much more softer, much more, and I'm like,
• 50:14
  The world is going to toughen you out there, but it's fine. It's fine. I don't know. Yeah, the education system here is different. Back in our day, like we were getting whooped in school, hey? If you don't do your homework, you get punished, like you get beat up. Were you guys? No. No. Man, imagine we were getting our asses whooped for real. But did that make you do the work?
• 50:35
  Yeah, we would do that. Do you think you needed the beating? No, we didn't need the beating because some of the kids would quit school from getting bitten so much. Right. Yeah. And then, you know, the teachers get frustrated. You have like 40 kids in the classroom, right? You know, out of them, out of 40, like when do you have time to give them all attention? Yeah. And some of them are smart. Some of them need a little bit of an extra push. Some of them are really hopeless. So if you keep beating them, some of them are dropping out of school. Okay. You know, some wouldn't come to school because they didn't have their homework ready. So you had to be, I don't know, it was...
• 51:04
  Yeah, it was really tough. To be honest, it was tough. And so when I got out of there, I was like, out, like a rat out of a sewage pipe. In terms of moving abroad, I think I take it for granted that everyone can just get up and move. I don't think that I have given enough weight to the idea of moving countries. And the more I speak to people and understand their perspectives is the more that I appreciate that moving is big.
• 51:31
  Moving is big, yeah. So I think for me, right, everything that I've done in my life, I've just, I just go with the wind, right? Like, for example, even having the baby, when I'm telling you earlier, like, I didn't, it's not what I thought it was. It's actually harder than I thought. So even moving abroad, I thought things were going to be easier. You know, I didn't think about, there's something called a visa. LAUGHTER
• 51:52
  That needs to be, you need to be on top of that. Like the paperwork, even to do everything, like you need permission, you need this, this, laws and all of that stuff. You know, I was not so much aware of that. And it's not easy at all, like to live overseas. But yeah, you got to, it takes, yeah, a tough one.
• 52:10
  Aside from admin and paying attention to the different rules and regulations. And the reason I laugh is because I have been booking flights without checking what the entry requirements are. So, for example, in Cambodia, I overstayed by a day. But I didn't even know I was overstaying. And again, it's arrogant of me to think that I can just turn up to people's countries and just stay there. Stay there as long as you can. I was only there for 31 days. So in my mind, you have like...
• 52:37
  three months everywhere. Yeah. I just didn't check that there are different rules for different places. So I completely understand. Did they ban you? What happened after? Oh, so you just pay. Okay. It's a really, it was the best country for it to happen to. Yes. Because you literally, when I checked in, no prob, for my flight to leave, but then when you go past immigration, they then say, you've stayed here for an extra day, you have to pay, I think it's like,
• 52:59
  30 dollars 30 US dollars that's not too bad for each day so the three of us had to pay 90 dollars they don't accept card just in case you're wondering I've been to I love Cambodia it's trendy people I don't have cash they direct you to the nearest ATM and luckily it was just one day and it was the three of us so it's 90 dollars and you're done yeah
• 53:18
  That's crazy. In South Africa, I know like a couple of people, this happened to one of my family members who overstayed by a day as well. Yeah. And they were banned for one year. Really? One of my friends overstayed for 10 days. They were banned for five whole years. So Cambodia doesn't ban you. You don't ban you. They just pay the $90. They don't ban you out. And then you're fine. No, here, even if you pay, you're out. You gotta go. And they ban you. Like, really? Really? And then to lift the ban is another thing. It's like a whole process. You have to write letters, appeal, call...
• 53:44
  It might take another six months for your papers to be sorted. So what's crazy is I booked the flight six weeks here. When I'm lining up for immigration, as in we've landed, I said, let me just quickly go check because I hadn't checked. And luckily, it's fine. You can stay here for three months. But if it wasn't fine, I didn't have a plan. Yeah, no. How long have you been here for three months already? How long?
• 54:05
  No, no, six weeks. Oh, so you're only here for six weeks? Yeah, but you're allowed to be here. For three months. For three months, which I only found out in the airport whilst I was Googling. Which now I should probably check before going. Yeah, before you go to different countries. What else is difficult about moving, aside from administrative?
• 54:21
  I think just adjusting to the culture, adjusting to getting to know new people. Adjusting, like I was saying to you, for moving from Singapore to here, it was a big adjustment, like safety-wise, security. In Singapore, you could just... One time I left my phone and I forgot my phone in the MRT. And it was given to the police, you know.
• 54:43
  I got a call from my husband's phone that you know the phone was found. You know like this, but in this country you cannot be walking around with your handbag and open. You gotta be safe. So such things that you have to adjust to or you know like you're in the city, you gotta live this way. So in that sense, I would say that's a little bit difficult when it comes to traveling and settling into different places. Because you moved as a family,
• 55:06
  Did you, before you kind of find your people and you settle in and you have your routine, was there any part of that journey that was a struggle? Because sometimes I think when you move as a family unit, it's easier, right? Yeah, it's easier. Am I being presumptuous? No, you're not at all. I think it's easier moving, for me it was easier moving to South Africa than moving to Malaysia because
• 55:26
  For South Africa, at least I was a little bit older, and I had, like I said, my helper, and I had my partner. So when I was alone, it's harder because you have no one to talk to about what you're going through, recommendations, or just it's better to go on a journey with somebody. Or sometimes it's better for you by alone, but in my sense, it was easier with the family than being alone, honestly. It feels like online, everyone kind of glorifies...
• 55:55
  living overseas. It feels like a lot of people are thinking, I think, especially since COVID, right, a lot of people are reconsidering their lives. And perhaps social media is showing people worlds that they didn't see before. Yeah. How are you as an individual different, having lived in different places around the world?
• 56:17
  Yeah, I mean, people do glorify living overseas. It is, and people really think that, you know, when you live overseas, life is easier, or you have more money, or, you know, you're living a glamorous life. They don't see, like, the struggles that you go through, like, you know, the hardships of it, being, yeah, being a foreigner, like, sometimes the things don't, like, things that apply to the locals don't apply to you. In what ways? I think...
• 56:44
  Okay, for example, I was saying having to start a business here, right? Like the requirements that I have as a foreigner compared to the requirements that the local person would have is much more easier. So people out there seeing you running something, they'll be like, oh, my God, you have it so easy. No, I don't have it so easy. I struggle a lot every day to get through this, but I do it because it's something that I love and I know it's something that has to be done. So I think people see things just happening online, like being softer or being – because we show mostly –