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CASEBOOK: Polyamory · Mental Health Matters

0:03
SPEAKER_04: Good evening and welcome to Mental Health Matters After Hours.
0:07
SPEAKER_04: We are absolutely thrilled to have back one of our favourite guests.
0:10
SPEAKER_04: She always gives an enlightening show.
0:13
SPEAKER_04: And your shows are also one of the most watched because we talk about sex.
0:20
SPEAKER_04: And this is Medina Demibrat.
0:23
SPEAKER_04: She is a TEDx speaker, she is a sex therapist, she's a counsellor, she's absolutely fascinating.
0:29
SPEAKER_04: And today we're going to be talking about polyamory.
0:32
SPEAKER_04: Yes, indeed.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Let's get rid of it.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to be hard to hear.
0:39
SPEAKER_04: We've been talking about it recently because of the whole Lily Allen new sing new album that she dropped, which was all about the breakdown of her marriage.
0:48
SPEAKER_04: And part of this is this woman called Madeline.
0:51
SPEAKER_04: It's going to become the new Jolene, I think.
0:55
SPEAKER_04: And and it was this whole idea that she and her husband had an open marriage, but before anyone judges, last time Medina was on this show, we talked about kink and we talked about the rules that everyone follows.
1:05
SPEAKER_04: And according to Lily Allen, he broke the rules.
1:09
SPEAKER_04: So they had rules.
1:10
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
1:11
SPEAKER_04: He had the he had an affair.
1:12
SPEAKER_04: The rule, one of the rules was you, it's sexual, it's not in our houses or you know, it's somewhere else, and that's all it is.
1:21
SPEAKER_04: He had an affair.
1:22
SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
1:23
SPEAKER_04: So I understand.
1:24
SPEAKER_03: So we will talk about this.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: We will.
1:26
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, absolutely.
1:27
SPEAKER_03: Definitely.
1:28
SPEAKER_03: So, Medina, what is uh polyamory and how does it differ from a thropo, for example, and and how popular is polyamory?
1:39
SPEAKER_00: So, polyamory is one of the types of an um ethical non-monogamy, EM.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, other forms would be solo poly, or it would be open relationships where you would have just uh sexual relationships but not without any emotional ties.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: We would have uh hierarchical polyamory and so on.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: But this particular polyamory literally means loving several people at the same time.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: So that means having not an affair, but a relationship with some with more than one partner based on consent.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: So it's a type of ethical or consensual non-monogamy.
2:22
SPEAKER_04: And that's the gen the debate, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: The umbrella.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: So how popular it is, whether it became more popular, we don't know, but it became definitely more visible.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And some studies say that up to 7% of people in the West are in open um in consensual non-monogamy relationships in some type of it.
2:44
SPEAKER_04: That's quite a lot, actually.
2:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, more than I would have thought.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's less than I would have thought because I'm a couple studies and I and I specialise in infidelity, and uh that's why I was it's are some people underreporting perhaps?
3:03
SPEAKER_00: How do we define monogamy?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: But we'll get to that.
3:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, interesting.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: So, why would people in your experience engage in polyamory?
3:13
SPEAKER_03: Is it because maybe they're bored with their relationship, or is it kind of a more natural thing that happens organically, maybe?
3:22
SPEAKER_00: I think well, let's look historically what marriages were for, what relationships were for, it was for survival for economic reasons and just to get the household going, right?
3:32
SPEAKER_00: So that did it purpose till about 20th century when it became about love.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: So now on the top of being um uh compatible in terms of economic, you know, economical goals, you also had to love each other.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Now in the 21st century, towards the end of the 20th and 21st century, it became um the household, the love, next layer self-realization.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So your marriage has to be an extension of who you are, right?
4:00
SPEAKER_00: And polyamory allegedly offers this one of the ways of fully expressing yourself and therefore allegedly being more happy and more fulfilled as a person.
4:13
SPEAKER_04: That's so interesting.
4:15
SPEAKER_04: Because on the one hand, actually, that there can be some real truth in that.
4:20
SPEAKER_04: Because if you've got uh a couple who, for themselves, expressing it through polyamory matches.
4:27
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's in the same way as having that discussion of uh do we want children?
4:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, do we want to bring them up in a religious manner?
4:36
SPEAKER_04: Are we okay with this religion?
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: It's not enough.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's not enough nowadays, apparently, to just love each other.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to also have to to match in terms of your values, of expression of who you are, whatever that means.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Who you are is a very tricky one.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the explanations that I would have.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a it's a an attempt to fully express, to live your life to the fullest, whatever that means in Western terms.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Secondly, I think it's the consumerism culture that affects us.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Are we actually missing out?
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Shall we have more?
5:12
SPEAKER_00: It's you know the whole Western culture, but having it all and having it effectively, I think, you know, it affects how we view the relationships.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Never mind that relationships are not products and people are not products.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, apart from being product of their culture and so and so on.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's much more complicated than that, and yet people have this fear of missing out, of having it all at the same time.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: And then uh so so that part, and you know, the the uh the choices that people have lives them, but always a bit bitter, like could I have a bit more here?
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Like and then the third factor that we're living much longer than our ancestors.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: What do we do with it all this time?
5:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, fully monogamous, do we go, do we cheat?
6:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, how so it's an attempt to resolve this issue of actually staying together, but longer and in healthier relationships.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Wow, which I never thought about.
6:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and if it's if that's what both of you want, I think that's great.
6:17
SPEAKER_03: If it if it if it helps you sustain that relationship for longer, I mean, yeah.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: Usually that's the initial intent.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Now, whether it is doable or not, we'll yet see.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but this is the idea behind it.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Let's still be together but in a different way.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
6:36
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
6:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, last time when we spoke, we spoke about fetish and we spoke about kink and we spoke about rules in particular, and that blew my mind.
6:47
SPEAKER_04: I had no idea there were so many rules, but I now understand that because and that was I felt very proud of myself having learnt from you, Medina, when the whole Lily Allen thing came.
6:56
SPEAKER_04: He broke the rules.
6:58
SPEAKER_04: He broke the rules, I know those rules, and and I think those rules are respectful.
7:02
SPEAKER_04: So, uh is polyamory in an ideal world going to be between a couple who is really into it and wants to express themselves in that way, but in reality, is it driven more by one person over the other?
7:18
SPEAKER_00: Usually it is.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Usually there's always one partner who wants more, and usually this person will start the negotiation process.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Where does it take them?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a different story.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: You see, I like to say that you know, when you're doing personal therapy as a single person, you you know, for two or three years, whatever, and then you come out like now I'm all this healed person, I'm great, I'm good to go.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: And you get into relationships, and then uh you realize usually there's so much more baggage.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Now, polyamory takes it to the next level where you get to discover about yourself things you never thought you knew.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing, again, about the practical side of it.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: But uh coming back to your question, boundaries are boundaries and rules are absolutely essential.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: The polyamorous relationships which work, work only because of the rules.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is about self-expression and feeling nice and feeling good about yourself, but first and foremost, it's about very, very explicitly discussed rules and following them and knowing um the outcomes that are gonna follow if you don't.
8:27
SPEAKER_04: Yes, because it is about respect for everyone involved.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: And and ongoing consent and checking in every now and then.
8:34
SPEAKER_04: So this ongoing consent thing we see a lot of the tabloid headings, you know.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: I wanted it, she didn't, she went along with it, you know.
8:42
SPEAKER_04: And either she's now run off with the other person, or alternatively, you've got the person who didn't want to go along with it, is now saying, uh I really, really shouldn't have said yes, but now they're holding me too.
8:56
SPEAKER_04: I said yes, and I know consent should be able to be negotiated and renegotiated, but can it ever work if someone just went along with it?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Obviously not, it's a time bomb.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh however, uh one way or the other is just gonna blow up at some point.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: However, if the let's say there are there's there's partner A and partner B and partner B is not sure but considers but like it's a good time to explore beforehand to see perhaps a couple therapists, yes, or not necessarily but something beyond just the information in the books and and movies, which are you know that they are helpful, but perhaps going to the community, you'll be surprised how big they are and how people are willing to share their experience and actually asking them what did you go through, why how was it for you, what are the underwater rocks, or what would you call, you know, what are the hidden jams, perhaps as well, you know, all these things to to ask.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: And then for some people we know for some personality type polyamorous, polyamorous or any type of of non-monogamy would be would be not a dead end, but it would be a living hell.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: And we'll talk we're gonna talk more about it.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: So if it is something that you consider, you might want to talk to specialists and you know to see to just to see what is it all about.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, polyamory is not a yes or no question, it's a why question, it's a how question, and uh it's a rule, you know, certain boundaries question.
10:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, we are gonna hold those questions and we're keeping within and we're gonna carry on with this conversation right after we've heard from our guest experts.
10:49
SPEAKER_04: What do we get out of that embracing of our sensuality as a woman?
11:10
SPEAKER_02: I can move it to me.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: I can present myself all the way to my body in a way that we should be something very cool.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: We've got like a handful of eat every single day.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: But just something like that astro.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: We get in touch with our bodies, it looks central when it sort of ignites that little bit of fierceness, and we then present ourselves in daily life to be a little bit more daring.
11:54
SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: We have sex therapist Medina Demebras with us.
11:59
SPEAKER_04: She's a TEDx speaker, she specialises in infidelity as a couples therapist.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: We are talking about polyamory, it's a fascinating conversation.
12:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh, rewind if you have just tuned in.
12:12
SPEAKER_04: Now, we watch shows like Sister Wives, and that's kind of the information we get, and that's about it.
12:17
SPEAKER_04: And in some cultures, actually having a mistress is a norm.
12:21
SPEAKER_04: Um, I know that a friend of mine, his grandfather, had a mistress.
12:27
SPEAKER_04: All the grandchildren were introduced to the mistress, they all like the mistress better than grandma.
12:35
SPEAKER_04: And and actually they really they they speak so fondly of her.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:40
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
12:40
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, are there cultures where it's common practice still?
12:44
SPEAKER_04: But also, what is Sister Wives not telling us?
12:49
SPEAKER_00: I think inherently the question is: are we by nature monogamous?
12:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, or is it just a product of uh of patriarchy?
13:00
SPEAKER_00: We don't know we have certain indigenous groups where the family structure would be fluid and it's totally fine, and well, more or less, it's it's man it's managed well.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Now we do know that the structure of a family turned into monog um monogamous.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh surprise, surprise, with agricultural evolution, because that's when the inheritance became important, the land became important, and just you just needed to make sure that you inherit the land to the right people that are related to you.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Before that, it was never such an issue.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: So that's the biggest question.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: How actually monogamous are we by nature, or what are you know, um certain cultures embraced it, certain didn't.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: And if we're talking, for example, in in in some Middle Eastern and African countries as well, yeah, the the it's polyamory or having sister wives is still uh a common practice.
13:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think that's just it's really interesting.
13:59
SPEAKER_04: That is a good question, is how monogamous are we by nature?
14:02
SPEAKER_04: And I think that varies from individual to individual.
14:04
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know my husband will always say to me, I can't even keep up with you and my job, let alone have an affair.
14:10
SPEAKER_04: It's having the fact that he's too busy that he's not Yeah, yeah.
14:15
SPEAKER_04: I don't think it's anything to do with anything else.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: That's what I you know.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: Like I I f and that's the idea that's being questioned in um the book The Ethical Slot.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the guide towards um polyamory, exactly that does our love diminish with every partner, or does it actually grow?
14:36
SPEAKER_00: She argues that it actually the more partners you have, perhaps increases your love for your current partner.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: Which is very interesting because I guess it could because in many ways is when you have children, your love doesn't diminish.
14:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: That's the one of the biggest arguments that programmers advocates are saying is if you're capable of loving one child, uh two children, three children, whatever, ten children, why aren't you why what makes you think that you can't love several partners at the same time?
15:07
SPEAKER_00: And that one love enhances the love towards your other partner.
15:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because it is, it's almost as if if the if the other partner fulfills certain needs that the other one can't, then actually you can be really satisfied.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh that's that's the initial claim, obviously.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, another thing, another common argument against polyamory or or or any type of open relationship is this that Peter Pan syndrome that these are the people who didn't grow up and they don't know how to meet their needs and they're being needy and they try.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's not necessarily the case because it's about consent and it's about respectful open communication, which takes a lot of maturity.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: True.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Ideally.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
15:53
SPEAKER_04: Now, if it's not the norm of in your culture, and you, this is the individual, you are considering it, are there other questions you need to ask yourself?
16:03
SPEAKER_04: Not just, oh, this will be fun.
16:05
SPEAKER_04: You know, it is it, do I need to ask myself, am I am I bored?
16:09
SPEAKER_04: Am I looking for something?
16:11
SPEAKER_04: Are there more pressing questions I need to ask me?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think the the good start would be a movie Professor Marston and Wonder Women.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it really shows very well how you know, apart from managing your own emotions, you have societal roles and and you have children and you have community and you have job.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: How do you actually, you know, all the logistics of it, it it gives you an idea that it's rather it it's complicated, it's it complicates the communication at least from the start.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: So I think one of the biggest questions uh that I I always ask for the couples who want to transition into polyamory, how good is your communication?
16:55
SPEAKER_00: How would you rate it on the level from zero to ten?
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And because if you know, polyamory can bring lots of things and we don't know them, but lots of them are uncertain, but one thing is that uncertain is gonna be a strain on your communication.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: And is your current style ready for this test?
17:13
SPEAKER_00: It's a test.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: And then in some couples who do go through it, they do very well and they say there was the best decision they've ever made.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: But you've got to be prepared that you uh perhaps if it's not your strongest side yet, perhaps first you want to strengthen your communication styles.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: You want to see second question is you want to look at how are you dealing with jealousy?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, how uh some people are inherently more jealous, some are not.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: What is it about for you?
17:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not an emotion to avoid, it's actually an emotion that you can unpack.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and and and even it can be a resourceful even in polyamorous relationships.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: And third ones, what are the rules uh that you would be okay with?
17:59
SPEAKER_00: What are the no-nos for sure, and you know what are the possible scenarios?
18:04
SPEAKER_01: So important.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: There's there's a lot more to it than one might think.
18:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, so what happens, um, as sometimes we might hear, especially in tabloids again, um, if the partner who initiated the the uh polyamorous relationship um decides they don't want it anymore, but then the more reluctant partner has become the one that wants to continue it.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: It's more common than people would expect.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, there is there are really good um uh books, but also like good questionnaires that that actually ask you this question beforehand.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the most common questions there.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: What would you do if your partner enjoys polyamory much more than you do and they become popular?
18:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, surprise, surprise, something you didn't envision when you were uh negotiating for polyamory.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: How would you go about it?
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready for this?
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And the second element, I think, is ongoing consent and ongoing check-in.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: It's just because somebody yes said yes to polyamory and to certain rules a year or two ago, it doesn't mean it's gonna work today and you need to continuously check in with each other.
19:18
SPEAKER_03: And it kind of brings into question as well like the initial reasons, is it something to do with control?
19:23
SPEAKER_03: So if the person that initiates it wanted to control and then all of a sudden they thought, no, it's not for me, and the other person does, it that might bring out huge issues if if the initial person then doesn't have any control.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: I ideally in this in this book, Ethical Slide, it's about it's questioned that the idea that relationships should be based on ownership and fidelity, whatever that means, but rather on they they advocate for self-expression and trust and respect.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, again.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that that's you know, that's the the whole incentive behind uh consensual non-monogamy.
20:06
SPEAKER_04: I think when it's consensual, trust and respect is actually embedded in it, and I think that that's beautiful actually in in many ways.
20:14
SPEAKER_04: But that doesn't mean a monogamous couple don't tr trust or respect each other.
20:18
SPEAKER_04: It's just if that couple likes to express themselves in that way, they respect each other and they trust each other.
20:24
SPEAKER_04: Great.
20:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, yes, because then you would see you found the trust would have deeper.
20:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: You know you're with the other.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: And and some people would have rather smooth transitions, and this is something that they were initially considering, and as we know from survey, so from surveys done in the UK, 35% of men are considering uh young men from from the age of 24 to I think 37, um, they are considering a polyamorous relationship.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Not that they're having it now.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: We know from statistics uh again up up to 10% at most.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, at least uh one in every third man is is is thinking about it.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Um much less for women, but again, uh we need to double check which type of women having which can be.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: Oh, so that's a huge number.
21:17
SPEAKER_03: And how does polyamory affect the the wider family?
21:20
SPEAKER_03: Do they get told or is it more common that they would be told or not told?
21:25
SPEAKER_00: I think when it comes to it's it's a personal choice for every couple of of them coming out as a polyamorous, for some communities it's this is not an option, it means an exclusion, and then it's a trade-off.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: You hide something because you value the inclusion.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: You can't have you know, sometimes you you you you really cannot be accepted in in certain communities, whereas it takes time and so on.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And and again there are many communities al already all over the the country and uh in the western cultures as.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Especially but now with with internet as well, that are of offering this support and offering this transition, how you go about with communities, certain types of communities, how do you uh open up and and what does it take and you know, the do's and the don'ts.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's if we I you can see that I I read tabloids and I read problem pages.
22:19
SPEAKER_04: And uh I particularly like the relationship ones because I find them really fascinating.
22:23
SPEAKER_04: And I do remember reading one question where it was it's it's a thruple and for some reason, tax-wise, it works out better that the husband divorces the wife and marries the other partner.
22:37
SPEAKER_04: Now everyone is very, very happy with that, but they don't have to tell the children.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: And actually, the advice of the person was do you even need to tell the children unless it affects the inheritance or whatever?
22:47
SPEAKER_04: And it doesn't.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: But for children, one of we know one according to research, one of the most fundamental parts that they need for them to develop emotionally and academically and so on is stability, it's emotionally, unconditional regard, unconditional love, and emotional attunement.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: So if you can handle these three things along with however many relationships you have, uh then you're doing fine.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, children need, they don't need to know the detail, the intimate details, but they need to know what's going on because the secrecy then turns into, you know, they filling up the gaps in their own mind in a different way than you would have imagined.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: Yes, that's true.
23:28
SPEAKER_04: So again, it comes back to trust, respect.
23:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
23:31
SPEAKER_04: Loving this conversation.
23:32
SPEAKER_04: We're keeping with Dean and we'll be back just after these uh tips from our experts.
23:41
SPEAKER_04: How do we keep that feeling, that strength, maybe that dominance even that we've experienced in the class that we know is part of us in our day-to-day lives?
23:53
SPEAKER_04: Great crazy.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: How do we bring that in?
23:56
SPEAKER_02: We so my class has um what's that group as well?
24:01
SPEAKER_02: So everybody basically gets what's that group.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Um really got the hair.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: And I'm hoping that you know everybody else out there is like that, that we just support each other, and like I've had a bit of a download, so okay, I'm we'll talk about it.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: Do you want to meet up for a coffee?
25:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, cool.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: And that does really help.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours.
25:15
SPEAKER_04: We are having the best discussion with Medina Demebras.
25:18
SPEAKER_04: She is a TEDx speaker, she is a couples therapist, she specializes in infidelity, and we're talking about polyamory, which is not actually infidelity.
25:27
SPEAKER_04: It is a form of consensual non-monogamy, which which has rules, though, and we need to say that it has rules, and that's how probably how it how it works, or the only way it can work.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: But let's talk about some of the practical elements, because I know you touched on this earlier, and these are things like inheritance, wills, yeah.
25:45
SPEAKER_04: I mean, those need to be discussed openly as well, don't they?
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because according to the UK law, only people who are part of the official so so polyamory is not considered an official marriage, and therefore the inheritance would be only the ones that were uh registered.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Therefore, you need to discuss the will and things like that in advance.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: But like I said earlier, and in the questionnaire, uh when you're considering the polyamory, it would ask this question.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Usually it would get to the to the practical stuff as well.
26:19
SPEAKER_04: And and actually, in so many ways, it sounds like you're better off considering polyamory and having these discussions than you would be in just having a step from you know when they're not having these discussions, and the problems come out when it comes to inheritance.
26:33
SPEAKER_04: So in a way, there are things we can learn from the polyamorous and um even and and the kink community because they have really open communication, which is it's it's brilliant.
26:46
SPEAKER_04: And now, polyamory isn't just a way to have an affair, um, but it is a way of life.
26:53
SPEAKER_04: So can or have you got examples of polyamorous relationships that do work really, really well?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: So when we're talking about polyamory and whether it is good or not, which is in itself a question, you know, it's a tricky question.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Good for whom.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: So we do let's look at the research and what it says, because you know, we can talk for hours and hours whether it is beneficial or not, but the research says that there is not that much statistically diff that there's not much statistical difference between monogamous and and and and ethical non-monogamous uh families.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: So if you think that you would be happier in in non-monogamous, perhaps or more satisfied with the family life.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: However, for certain types of people, we know that ethical non-monogamy would work better.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: For example, for people with high levels of uh social sexuality.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Now, social sexuality is an ability to get it to engage into sexual intercourse activity without necessarily emotional attachment.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: So these people, you can you can call them people with higher sexual desire, but not necessarily, it's a different type.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's a uh high level of of um sex uh social sexuality, which means that they have a higher need to engage, to meet more people sexually, and so on.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: So they would feel much more restrained by the traditional monogamy, and therefore we would recommend for them to go out and and and try, first of all, try to have a partner who would match in this level, and then to to try out the different types of consensual non-monogamy.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: But but otherwise, yeah, there is, you know, now the the tricky part obviously is what is monogamous.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: So in these studies that are being conducted and comparing these two groups, people who are reporting that they're monogamous, are they really?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but this is what we don't know.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: But if if we consider that they are and they're saying the truth, then there is not that much difference.
28:59
SPEAKER_04: Right.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is one of the things that makes that clear.
29:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that makes sense.
29:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, and what if as a partnership you decide you want to go forward with polyamory?
29:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, but the person that one partner chooses as an ideal third um person in the relationship the other partner isn't happy with.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: This is rather common.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and uh this is something again that you just decide or try to negotiate beforehand whether uh how do you go about because uh what you know it can be a good question for unpacking why you don't like the other person.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Is it the jealousy is the way they are, is it it again it requires an open communic ongoing communication beforehand and during because things do happen um in the process that you the that you couldn't foresee, and then it it can be unpacked and and discussed and um and respected because ideally non-conceptual non-monogamy uh is based on trust and respect.
30:09
SPEAKER_03: Can I ask a an extra question which is sort of based on that?
30:12
SPEAKER_03: So would you say with the with the couples that you see anyway that um one wants to be uh pursue a polyamorous um relationship because they've already met somebody that they want to do that with, or is it the idea that they want to pursue and then go and find a third person?
30:31
SPEAKER_03: Good question.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: It really depends.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: I can I I'm I'm trying to think um of what I know for sure that polyamory right after infidelity instance is not a good idea.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: So it has first you need to make sense of infidelity, why did happen, what you were looking for.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, if you know, in the cases when a person is considering uh opening up a relationship, then if first and foremost you need to ask why, and whether what you're pursuing, what you think you will reach with polyamory is doable for your character.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, because i i it like it all comes back to to knowing yourself, to expressing yourself, but but or at least thinking that you know.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: For example, I want polyamory because I'm I'm I'm I'm I like the spice or I I like this and that.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: So I hope with the open relationship or polyamory research, I'm gonna, you know, fulfill this this need.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Alright, so what kind of person are you then?
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you uh what did you were you able to receive this create the spice with your current partner and so on and so forth?
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And then whether it is doable, you know, it it really It's a big discussion, isn't it?
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's oh it's a lot of a lot of retrospection.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Some people just go for it, they don't like to overthink it, they go for it and they learn in the process.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: I would suggest at least consider certain scenarios, think a little bit through them, and then perhaps you know, try different and starting in lighter versions and transitioning.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there are there are specific transition questions and transition exercises that you know couples can try before they fully become polyamorous, or you know.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a much important yes, and it's uh yeah, it's a big could be a big minefield.
32:27
SPEAKER_03: Um so how do double lives then differ from polyamory?
32:33
SPEAKER_00: You see, because from infidelity point of view, the double life has the secrecy, it has some kind of element of of dishonesty and and secrecy.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: Whereas uh polyamory, yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: No, it's joyful, but yeah, ideally, again, it's you know it's there there are certain rules that that the couple would discuss.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh however, it's interesting that very often, since I'm working with infidelity, very often it is this precise element of secrecy and having double life is that what is what's attracting three people.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not their other partner, it's not their current husband or wife that they didn't like.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: But the it's it's interesting, I can I can quote you know, when the client said, I just so much enjoy that nobody knows it, and I do, and I feel superiority over everybody.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Wow, so you know, it's it's so take this secrecy element maybe for the Emirates is not even gonna be you know enjoyable for you, it will be just another headache.
33:37
SPEAKER_03: Yes, excitement and excitement of secrecy.
33:42
SPEAKER_04: Like when you were on the show talking about affairs, play it through.
33:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, play it through.
33:46
SPEAKER_04: The meditation and the fun day into you know, watching their talks to be where you are.
33:51
SPEAKER_04: I love that.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: Such a good point.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: Uh it's been brilliant.
33:55
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, do you mind when I was because I've got just one more this is just what's happening now with these AI boyfriends that uh people are having.
34:03
SPEAKER_04: Um do you think that's gonna be a problem?
34:06
SPEAKER_04: And I know this is not necessarily your area of research, but just to throw it out there, because I read about this and then I see these women who are just talking to I think it's a problem that they're talking to an AI as a therapist, but when you're now having a kind of emotional connection with AI, it's a program that worries me.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it's already, it's not like it's becoming a problem.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: It's already a problem.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And uh for many relationships and uh having conversations with uh AI girlfriend or boyfriend or webcam services, would we consider it as cheating?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think in modern world what we need to, I don't think everybody should go for polyamory, but we need to redefine what is monogamy, and perhaps, you know, because monogamy in in in 19th century and 20th century was more doable, let's put it this way, than in 21st.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps, you know, and and in a way that this is something to consider for every and some couples are absolutely happy with uh with traditional monogamous structures, they really are.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And we're we you know, but more and more people, couples are turning to me and asking, you know, if we want to make it work in the long term and having so many options out there, how do we still stay together with respect and love and passion?
35:33
SPEAKER_04: And those are good questions to ask, really.
35:35
SPEAKER_04: Really respectful questions again.
35:37
SPEAKER_04: Oh my goodness, gosh.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: And where can we find out more about you?
35:44
SPEAKER_00: So I'm um a bit present on Instagram, Medina Relationships Therapist.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can also Google Medina Sex Therapist, and my name will come up first, but also my website, www.medina demirbash.com.
35:58
SPEAKER_04: Brilliant, brilliant.
35:59
SPEAKER_04: Well, we're gonna keep Medina because I really don't want to call it test the trend.
36:05
SPEAKER_04: If you're considering polyamory, we're going to give it to Medina to give you some of the questions you need to be asking yourself.
36:12
SPEAKER_04: So let's head over to Test the Trend.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: So if you're considering opening up your relationship uh with your partner in some type of form of consensual non-monogamy, then there are three questions that at least three questions that I recommend you consider.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Number one is how do you handle jealousy?
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Look at your personal history, look at your history as a couple, how do you go about it, how do you communicate it, and what do you make of it?
36:42
SPEAKER_00: And question number two, perhaps which should have been question number one, is how is uh how would you rate your communication style?
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh communic sorry, commun openness of your communication, how are you satisfied on your ability, your personal ability to communicate your needs, to hear the needs of your partner and to make something to to um face the conflict and to make conclusions after conflict.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: How does it uh what kind of aftertaste do you have after this difficult uh conversations with your partner?
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Because one thing for sure is that open any type of open relationships would put a strain on your current communication skills.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh you might want to consider to strengthen them first before um going into open relationships.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: And then number three is the boundaries, which can also be number one as well.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't I think they're equal, they're all equally important, but the boundaries in terms of how far do you think you want to go and how far you would want your partner to go, and why.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And what do you want to?
37:48
SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, this is like sort of sub-question to all of that is why.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: What do you help to achieve with um um consensual non-monogamy with your partner, and whether do you think it's doable for you and for both of you?
38:05
SPEAKER_04: It was so good listening to you.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: Because and and those top tips are so important, and you're right, I don't think one is more important than the other.
38:14
SPEAKER_04: You need to communicate, you need to know your boundaries.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: Jealousy was the one thing I would not have considered, and and this is where I think when people say open relationship, and maybe this is me just being really judgmental, it's because they're bored, they're thinking of having an effect, they don't actually think consequences.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: What does it take for you and for your partner and for your family?
38:36
SPEAKER_00: There are two of you, but the broader community.
38:38
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
38:39
SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's so much to reflect on.
38:41
SPEAKER_04: Anything that really jumps out for you, Jude.
38:44
SPEAKER_03: A couple of things actually.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I would be too jealous, I wouldn't be able to handle it, you know.
38:50
SPEAKER_03: Um my husband's not even allowed when I'm dead, he's not even teen.
39:06
SPEAKER_03: Um so that that's one big thing, you know, just and I think that must affect a lot of people.
39:11
SPEAKER_03: But the other thing is, however, uh having just said that, that I'm thinking about I'm married, you know, I've got my husband and we're good friends.
39:20
SPEAKER_03: We talk about everything under the sun, and you know, he's good for like emotional support, etc.
39:24
SPEAKER_03: etc.
39:25
SPEAKER_03: But I have male and female friends that I would meet for coffee or lunch or dinner or whatever, and I would that they have something different, you know, and the relationship I have with them would be something different to have to to what I have with my husband.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: So I guess what I'm saying is maybe a polyamorous relationship is just a slight extension of that, because like you said earlier, the the third person might be what you don't get with your other partner, you get with them.
39:54
SPEAKER_03: So I can see kind of see why it would be how it would work.
39:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree with you, and and with that, I guess does polyamory mean there has to be a sexual aspect?
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, some some there has to be a relationship element into it, and and all the parties involved are aware of what's going on and they all ideally consent to it.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily the case.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you you would see you know the couple between themselves that would be openly polyamorous, and then they would go out and have partners who don't even know that these people have this kind of it's not necessarily it's not a common practice, but I'm saying is you know, or then gradually they would become more, you know, uh open to to other telling other people, but that's how it usually starts.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: But but but also uh Judah, I I just want to comment on on this friendship thing, you know, because the whole idea of polyamory is loving several people at the same time, and uh and and then the question is can you love somebody without necessarily having a relationship with them?
41:01
SPEAKER_00: I think you can, and and some people can, and some people can, they want more, and if they want more, you know, then then then they need perhaps some support to make it happen or to see if they're actually capable.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, but yeah, I think I think for some people like having those other strong friendships are enough, and they wouldn't ever cross that line and go into um a physical relationship with them.
41:24
SPEAKER_03: But I suppose what I'm saying is I can see how just that extra step could happen and how it could work if everyone was in agreement.
41:32
SPEAKER_04: Where absolutely we do have friendships that fulfill other aspects of everything because, in a way, if you're talking just about well-being in general, you can't expect your partner to fulfill everything.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely, and I think that's why we have the highest ever uh rate of divorce because so much expectation put just on one person.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you want them to be sexy, you want them to be interesting, exciting, uh giving you emotional support, making you tea, and uh you know, also looking after household in a very perfect way.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: And so so many things, right?
42:09
SPEAKER_00: And one of the the the you know one of the reasons why why polyamory on this type of relationship are getting more more seen is is one of the ways to combat this loneliness and this overburdening.
42:23
SPEAKER_04: And one thing we didn't get the chance to talk about in the show is is what if you as the couple you want to break up with your third, because you just you know you're not feeling it anymore.
42:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's an awful situation as well, isn't it?
42:37
SPEAKER_00: It's just I think if again, again, if if you agree from start that you will continuously check in on each other and then it's an open road and everybody has the right to say no at any time that they feel they're it's not working for them, and again explore the reasons why, then um it should go rather smoothly.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Not that it's gonna be smooth, but you know.
43:01
SPEAKER_04: So just to to close us off, Medina, can you give us one top tip on maintaining a healthy relationship, whatever that relationship is?
43:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good one.
43:13
SPEAKER_04: Because I know you've got some in and I'll test the trend, but but Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: I think one um one of the biggest issues that I see right now in as working in general couples, whatever form they choose, is in inability to hear, uh to hear each other.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter what form of relationship they're in, to maintain, I would call it maintaining two realities.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's usually uh no, you're seeing it wrong because it is like that.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no, no, no.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: You don't understand.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: This is right, and you are wrong, and cut it off, and I don't want to know, I don't want to hear anything about it.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: But it's my job is bringing this to realities and Letting them coexist together without crossing each other out.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it that makes sense.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: It really does.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And and it takes a lot of inner maturity.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Not to pretend that, like, yeah, yeah, right, this is your opinion, but actually see the reality of other person, like what you described to you.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: See the other shades of green that you can see.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, are you looking the same color as I am?
44:21
SPEAKER_00: This is the way it is.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: This is your pain, this is my pain.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Alright, you know, we don't have to solve it right away, but at least consider it, regard it at the same time.
44:32
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's beautiful.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: If you can do that, you don't need a couple therapists.
44:37
SPEAKER_04: And on that note, on that note, we wish you a very good night.