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Episode 7: Before a Parent Needs Care - The Talks and Papers to Have Ready · The Retirement Navigator

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Retirement Navigator, the podcast for adults 55 plus who are ready to make their next chapter their best one.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Kwame Kwade, co-founder of Next Chapter Media and adjunct professor of finance at Johns Hopkins University Kerry Business School.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Joining me today is Carol Bradley Berserk.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Carol is an author, columnist, and longtime caregiver advocate who spent more than two decades caring for a neighbor and six elderly family members.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Inspired by those experiences, she wrote Minding Our Elders, Caregivers Share Their Personal Story, often described as the portable support group for caregivers.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Carol is a certified dementia support group facilitator and the founder of Minding Our Elders and Minding Our Elders blog, where she shares practical guidance, trusted resources, and encouragement for caregivers, older adults, and families.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Her long-running Minding Our Elders newspaper column appears weekly in multiple publications, and she has written hundreds of articles for leading aging and caregiving platforms.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Carol has been interviewed by major national media outlets and continues to be a trusted voice, supporting caregivers across the country.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad to have you here today.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Kwame.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm delighted to be here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to start with your journey.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can you share, you know, how you ended up on this path of, you know, supporting um adults and their journey on helping their aging parents provide care and caregiving?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was organic for me because I had uh well, I had a neighbor when I was raising raising my children and they were young.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I had a neighbor who was profoundly deaf.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh his wife died, and I didn't know them real well.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: We hadn't been there a long time, and they'd been there forever.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh his wife died, and I just offered to, I said, Do you need any help with groceries or something like that?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do something to kind of help him.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um ended up being his primary caregiver for five years through the rest of his life, and we had a unique relationship, it was kind of fun um in many ways, because uh he could not hear it all.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I would write and he would speak, and um, we would have mountains.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'd go over daily to see him and talk with them, and we I took him to doctors and did those things.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: We would um uh just have mountains of notes.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd leave there'd be 15 pages of notes that you know I was writing um so that he knew what I wanted to say to him.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they're one-sided notes.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, we had we had a lot of fun, and uh that went on for five years until his death.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And shortly after that, uh my dad, who had a brain injury um during World War II, uh had surgery that was supposed to correct um some fluid building up in his brain.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, it went bad, and um he ended up with profound dementia, and he'd been fine when he went in.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: He was just like occasionally a little fuzzy, and they thought, okay, this is what we should do.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody, you know, nothing wrong, it's just the way things happen sometimes.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so it was a time when things were not really well known for um for managing you know dementia.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was quite a journey and um got into that heavily, and after that, then my uncle had more strokes, and my aunt and they didn't have children, and they had moved here to be with us, and uh then my mom and my in-laws, and so it was uh like dominoes, people were having issues.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And at one point in time I was going to five different locations to do caregiving every day, and then my children, and it was a lot.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it it um but it was as I said, it was organic.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you step up, it's there to do, you love these people, and in those times, there uh there wasn't, you know, caregiving help on the internet, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, caregivers, it's just what families did, right no matter what.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so out of all of that, and through my what turned out to be 15 years of daily visits to one of our care facilities with multiple people in and out and all these things besides the other locations, I met other caregivers.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it just I decided somewhere that I wanted to write about this.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd always been a writer, and uh maybe it would help other people.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I interviewed um, well, actually, it was kind of an adventure finding the right number balance of men, because men can get kind of left out of this conversation, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um so I did find a balance of men with women, but I interviewed 26 other caregivers, and they're really just giving them an opportunity to tell their stories along with my telling mine and just little brief brief synopsis synopses.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh so anyway, that was how I got into it, and during all that time I was um freelancing, and then eventually I was working full-time and trying to manage these things.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it was um it it evolved, it was always fluid.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: There were no right or wrong answers, you do the best you can.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that was how I got there.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I started working um in this field, and eventually I started writing for websites and I uh after my book, and then I also uh have become a dementia support group facilitator.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just kept going.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, that that's that's that's a journey.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and one thing that jumps out at me is is the fact that you know there is no you know there is no advanced notice in these kind of cases.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you get thrown into caregiving situation, and a lot of people find themselves, you know, there's a diagnosis, there's a fall, there is something, and then they get thrown into it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can you speak to in your experience, you know, people who may be watching this um podcast and suddenly find themselves as a primary caregiver?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what should how should they approach that?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if they are in that sandwich generation where they have their own lives, their own career, their own interests, how should they go about navigating this?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: There is now, fortunately, a lot of help online that doesn't make it easy at all.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um, if you're working with dementia, the Alzheimer's Association has um quite a lot of information, a lot of helpful information, but there's also all kinds of other groups, and um I'll mention Better Health While Aging here because uh Dr.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Leslie Kernison is one of my clients, and I uh I facilitate her support group, but Dr.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Kernison has incredible training on her site, and our support group offers that she has courses in there and and uh she gives uh I mean people members can talk directly to a geriatrician.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: She's a geriatrician, and they on our calls.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: She is so patient and she spent a lot of time, more time than you're gonna get at the doctor, um, answering questions.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also have Michelle Allen, who is uh she's a geriatric care manager, and she does uh calls as well, takes these calls, and she's just phenomenal.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm so proud to be a member of this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to uh mention the website again so that our members would know.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's betterhealthwhileaging.net.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, awesome.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um anybody who forgets that and remembers minding our elders, go to my website and you can click on her picture and it will take you there, take you to the training, um, and how you can get a couple examples of free trainings.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um just just to help you learn how to maybe if you're dealing with parents or a spouse, right?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But um, it's called helping older parents, yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, we have quite a few spouses in there as well, and uh it helps you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, nobody here I'm sure understands you can get a little resistance now and then.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, resistance is well, it's normal.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: People are used to running their own lives, they have autonomy, and then suddenly you, the adult child, come in and say, Hey, we should do it this way, you're not safe, you're getting old, and of course, that's not the right way to do it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um, Dr.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Curneson has wonderful uh materials on doing that, as do other websites.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Daily Caring comes to mind right now.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a very good website, they have a lot of uh information, and of course, Better Health.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say uh a place for mom.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um they have a lot of good articles.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just go to my website, you will find resources.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I list quite a few there.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been doing this a long time.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we all want to help you.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have a daily blog, we all want to help people get started because sometimes that's the hardest part.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my newspaper column, my one of my most common questions is I don't even know where to begin.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what I talk about the most is communication.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if you can, and you mentioned all of a sudden, but the best case scenario is when families can communicate early.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh often your parents will have, oh, they'll have friends, uh, their neighbor Joe had a had a stroke, and you'll say, Oh, that's awful.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: How's he doing?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you could say, What would you want us to do if that happened to you?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and and that's better than saying, Hey, you're getting old, you might have a stroke, and you know, how can we help?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are just more gentle ways and more natural ways.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if something happens and you're there's an emergency, then you have to go back and you have to hopefully you've got maybe uh if it's uh your dad had a stroke, maybe your mom can say still say, Hey, we've got and show you the ropes of their legalities.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you need your will, you know, you want power of attorney, you have all of these things that you need to set up.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, that we do it earlier.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Earlier is always better.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there are websites for that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh prepareforyourcare.org is one that comes to mind off the top of my head.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are others, the conversation project is another one.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you go there and they can help people set up the legal documents, and that's a wonderful place to start, especially if there is no emergency, and it's better to have it in place.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things you mentioned um is about the conversation.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in the bear scenario that we've had this conversation before, you know, we something happens, you know, how would you approach or encourage people to approach this conversation?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, you know, obviously, you know, there's always, you know, sometimes there's resistance, sometimes there's tension, you know, do you do it at home?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you go to a neutral place?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But but more importantly, how and when should you begin to have this conversation?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, especially if you know there's gonna be some resistance.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as mentioned, do it early if you can.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you have a nice relationship with your parents and you can talk about other things, it's really nice if you can just make it, you know, not make every visit about, hey, we need to plan for your decline.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that isn't a very pleasant thing to do, and sometimes there's no choice.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start early, um you can tell them about your life.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't just make it an interview session, tell them what you're doing.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Parents love to hear that.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you tell them what you're doing, then they maybe say, Oh, well, this is what we've got going on.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's never too early to get your own uh legal documents done.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, never too early after you're 18 years old, but few people will do it because um they don't think anything's gonna happen.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: But uh many people in your audience, they should have done this as well.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if they haven't, they can say, you know, I'm gonna go in and get we're getting our wills done, we're getting a power attorney, we're going to get this all set up so there aren't any problems.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that might, if your parents haven't done it, that might lead them to say, Oh, how do you how do you even start that?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Where should we go?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: How can you know?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you can just do it as a team.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so there are many ways to, if we just remember, it's not easy to visualize um your children taking over your affairs, even the most loving children.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just it's very hard.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very hard to for people who are used to being totally autonomous to start to even gradually let go of some of that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if we put ourselves in their place and are compassionate and um step back a minute if there's a lot of resistance, you know, step back a minute and say, and think about yourself.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Think maybe I was being a little pushy.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can step back a little and then address it at another time, a better time, uh, and do go to places like Dr.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Kernison's site and and and my website and others.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um Place for Mom comes to mind because I had just done um, as you mentioned, um a podcast last week with them, and this is really one of the things we talked about at length.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um anyway, if you if you just keep in mind that um would do would they like to talk about this um just gradually at your normal visits, or would they prefer maybe um get the whole family together in a family room of a restaurant, you know, in your own little room and make it a more focused meeting if that's necessary.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um everybody's different, and you know your parents.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know your parents, uh me, you don't know their parents, but um they do.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um kind of think about what's natural for them and the least painful way of going about this.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: You might find, many people might find, once you've opened up the topic, that your parents are willing.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I found when I did mine, and I was writing a newspaper column and hadn't done mine, and I thought, this is hypocritical.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, and I found my kids more uncomfortable than I was.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't because I work in the field, I'm not the least bit uncomfortable with this.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I am all for planning for telling them what I want.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: My kids get tired of hearing it.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying, don't ever let that happen to me.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, this is what I would want.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm just out there with it, but that's just what I do.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that said, it's uh we don't like to think of our parents.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those first gray hairs can be disturbing.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: We see our parents are going, oh, oh, they're getting older.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh society, unfortunately, right away says, oops, the home, you know, they they're losing it, they're getting gray, they're getting old, we gotta take care of them.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that really isn't how it works at all.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's very gradual, and people are individuals, we're all different.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, if they just be compassionate and remember this is not easy for anyone, but it's necessary.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And my view is like you get this done, you get the the legal work done, and then just get on living your life.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can feel good about it, and then you can move forward.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: That one thing you said about the legal work that actually is gonna stick with me, um, you know, among other things in this conversation is the fact that if you approach it from the fact that you, like we are never all we're never too early to do the documents ourselves.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than saying let's do it for you, it's also saying that, hey, I am gonna go do mine.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that gives, you know, that becomes something that you know you can do with your parents together if they haven't done it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's it's a much, much easier conversation there than saying, hey, because then it puts a spotlight on them, you know, rather than saying, hey, I I even haven't done this, I need to do this, and then it makes them realize that hey, we haven't done it either.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's how do we do it?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go do it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like that approach because it it is true that when you go and approach this conversation, it is basically shining a spotlight and acknowledging something that maybe they wanna they are not ready to acknowledge fully, but they've been thinking about, which is that we are we're aging, you know.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So and that's a very good point because they know it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: They may be in denial, and people say, Oh, my my parents won't admit it, they're getting older, they're in total denial.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe uh they may not want to admit it to you, and they may have a little trouble even admitting it out loud, but they know it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even people who are doing really well understand, okay, um, they had parents.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of the things I always tell people about if they're going to take care of their parents and they're not sure what a parent, maybe the parent can't tell them anymore what they want.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: How did they take care of their parents?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that would give you some clues as to what they may want for themselves.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in this case, too, you're they may be thinking about their parents and remembering, yeah, oh man, I remember when mom got this age, and oh yeah, maybe I better start thinking about making some plans.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I will say, in all fairness, making in-depth plans is harder if you don't have a lot of money.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's our system.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody can say, oh, lay this out and get this in line and get that in line.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And few of us have the financial resources to do everything that supposedly we should do.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So some things we we do have to just let happen.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But there are things we can do, and those things are the legal documents, and those things are letting our families know if you had a major stroke that how far, you know, and this depends on your health now, basically, but how far would you like them to go in keeping you alive?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what documents do you want?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you if your parents are are ill, have a lot of illnesses, um, or are getting quite old.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that is often missed in people talking about these documents, so I will bring up is something called a pulse, and that's physicians' orders that will what they will allow you to do is it's got to be signed by a doctor, not just an attorney, or and um you it will tell them what to do should you have a stroke, would you want intubation, would you want um CPR done, or what you know, or not, or these these steps um that generally isn't done for somebody who's younger or somebody who is reasonably healthy, but in the older years it is, and so as a caregiver, I think it's it's called a MOLST in some states, M-O-L-S-T or a Puls, depending on where you are, but they're easy to find online, just look for it.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can even find forms, and uh that's something to consider if you're looking at um possible end-of-life care or something that may throw your parents into a situation where a lot of decisions have to be made because it states right there what they would want.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if they're they've got advanced dementia, they won't be able to do this.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're reasonably uh if their cognition is good, they still could.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that brings me um to back to caregiving.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I saw a statistic that um actually when I was watching um your podcast episode with uh Nikki, 60% of caregivers are women or more.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So and and and and so I wanted to talk about that and the fact that you know there is stress involved, there is health, it takes a toll on health, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Your physical, mental, and sometimes you don't get a break, you know, or you people don't take breaks.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, what in your experience would you tell, you know, especially women caregivers who are the primary caregivers about, you know, you you you mentioned that this is a marathon.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: How should they approach that and also take care of themselves?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you go into it, and we don't always when they're it they like with my dad with that surgery, that kind of thing, we expected it to be easy and it wasn't, you don't always have a choice.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have any, if you're just starting, I always call it the sneak up effect, you know, you're starting, your parents are getting a little older, and uh maybe you just um stop in and help um when they need a light bulb change because they shouldn't be climbing, you know, doing some minor things like that.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if you can just realize then that okay, this is great, but this will escalate and they will need more and more help.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: So right then you would stop and think, okay, now how am I going to be able to keep my own life, my job, my kids, even if your kids are are grown or you know, teenagers are grown, they're still your family and you want to spend time with them.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, your marriage, if if you're married and if you're single and don't have kids or anything, you still have a life.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so what you need to do is say, How can I keep myself healthy?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that means physical health, mental health, emotional health, and they're all important.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you may have to um, this is a good place for the planning to say, okay, I will be well there, you know, still in their home, I'll be able to run over and get help them stop in often, but there's a point where we need to look at hiring in-home care because I cannot do it all.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, if you don't do that, you may have to gradually come to the realization, and hopefully it won't happen before you crash because burnout happens and can kind of you know become um quite kind of a surprise.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're going along, you just put one foot in the front, we just keep doing it, and we do it, and we do it, and we do it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now one day you think if I don't have five minutes to myself, I'm just going to crash.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, I mean, I I like to see that built in the system.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a I'm a book nerd, and so all the time that I was running with all these people, give me 15 minutes with a book that has nothing to do with caregiving, by the way.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Something else.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and um, I was reading old classics at the time because uh I'm an English major and those things I thought I'm gonna go back and read these, and it was kind of hilarious to be reading uh Tale of Two Cities while I am uh taking a break, but that was just something that took me totally out of my world.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I would read that bit and then my mind would kind of like let go during that time.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, other people, probably more sane people, would maybe say, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go out and take a run.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna walk in the park, I'm gonna I'm gonna build in time to make sure I get to have a massage.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um what it whatever it is that relaxes your mind, even if it's going off into the backyard and having a cup of tea, or scheduling a little bit of time with a good friend, I'm not saying it's easy.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say I do often feel hypocritical when I tell people take care of themselves because I know sometimes it's like how.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if you start planning ahead, okay, what would what would be one thing, even a tiny thing, that will help me do better, and kind of keep that in mind as your mantra.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: People who have strong faith, um, prayer, um, any kind of um meditation, uh those things can help a great deal too.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And support groups.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I will I will champion support groups forever because finding other people who are doing what you're doing, if nobody else gets it, other caregivers will.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when somebody hears you and truly hears you, does it lighten your load?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not in a practical manner, but it sure lightens your mo your mo your tightens your mood and your burden.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just to share it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, and and and I there is, I think that we talked about financial uh consideration, and a lot of times care, you know, people take on caregiving roles because they know their parent cannot God doesn't have the financial means to afford to bring somebody in or pay somebody to do it.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the kids probably also don't have the financial means to to pay somebody to do it, and so the burden falls on somebody.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I like the I like the fact that you're talking about taking care of yourself, making time so that you it is, you know, the marathon that you talked about is it's a marathon, or it may be a marathon, you know, and so you cannot like you have to take care of yourself so that you can also continue to provide for that family member, which brings me to dynamics between siblings, you know.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, you know, there is somebody that steps up, maybe willingly or unwillingly, to provide care, and then the others are maybe not sure what role they play, or or the others simply just vanish or are not in contact.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: How have you seen people navigate this?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what are some of the things that you can share when you have sibling dynamics that you know puts the burden on one person?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is um one of the top questions, I guess, uh sibling issues, and they can be complicated because um in some families, as much as people would want more help, um the dynamics between the siblings are such that they actually say it's easier to do it myself, because otherwise there's always second-guessing, criticism, and other things going on.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I saw there's quite a bit of that in in my book that when I interviewed people.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Every now and then there's this family that it's a storybook family, and everybody contributes and everybody, you know, takes their turn, and nobody lives too far away, so they can't hop in.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you get that, but not usually.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: More often it's a matter of physical distance, if not emotional distance.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And how you know, I okay, they have siblings who would be willing to help to some degree, but they live, you know, 800 miles away.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, sometimes the primary caregiver lives at a distance, and that's another very difficult thing to manage.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: But say you're in town in the same community or close uh with your parents, um you're probably going to be the one.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: You are it because simply because that's what the the dynamics state, that is the logistics, and it's easiest for you.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you may or may not be the one who's emotionally quick, but you will be probably the one who does most of it.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can try to get your family certainly speak up, and and do it not from a demanding point of view, like you should have thought of that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because people are busy, they live their own life, and you're taking care of mom and dad, and you never speak up, you never say this is hard, or can I help?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're not bad people, they just maybe aren't thinking about they're living their busy lives, and they're saying, Oh, yeah, well, this is cool.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and every now and then they'll say, Hey, how's it going?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, take care, and they're gone.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, try to, if you say, you know, I really need some help with what I'm doing with mom and dad.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you have um a sister who is um several hundred miles away, but she happens to be someone who works in a financial field, and say, you know, could you take over managing the finances?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can we get a you know, the power attorney arranged so you can do that for me?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: That would take a load off of me not to worry about it, and the insurance, you know, uh doing the Medicare stuff every year and all these things.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you could take that, that would really help.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there could be another sibling who maybe is um right for doing you know the medical following up on appointments, even if they're doing it from a distance, you know, communicating with doctors.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that works, but if you are the one taking them to the doctor, you know, you can run into issues with that.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so more often than not, if you're the one taking, it's probably gonna fall on you.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: But somebody else can take care of the taxes, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right, right.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so if they know that they can do something without you know traveling back and forth twice a month to try and contribute, um, that that helps.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also, though, if you can, you could say, you know, if one of you could come and let me take a week's vacation or two weeks' vacation, and just come out here and spend this time with mom and dad.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Alternate, do it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's can we set up that time just so I get a break now and then, right?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: That would be ideal.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there again, do it uh with understanding that they're busy and that they aren't in most cases um you know, being denigrated to what denigrating to what's you're trying to do.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: However, sometimes sometimes it is.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's like, hey, you're there, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And most cases what that happens, it'll be you're the girl.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, look, I'm too busy not doing anything, and then in the end, it's going to be up to you.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you feel like it's harder to just keep pushing away and getting rebuffed, or just finally say, Okay, I'm gonna hire some help, or I'm going to do this.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I will um check in once a month, let you know what I'm doing.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I I've asked, if you decide you want to contribute, that's fine.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to move forward because this is what I have to do.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I I like so man, and there's so much in there.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I have one more question because I know um we have had an extensive conversation about this, and one thing that I keep coming back to is, you know, respect and appreciation for caregivers.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and uh it is one of those jobs that uh doesn't get the recognition and the respect even from siblings.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are a caregiver and you feel like your work is not being recognized and appreciated, what do you do with that?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Support groups.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that is not uncommon.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have uh addressed that often in my newspaper column because um sadly, uh people who are not doing it, people who are not caregivers, don't understand.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just um you can't.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so many things.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, somebody who has not lived with cancer, they all they can get all kinds of people who love them and will do everything, but they can't know what it's like inside.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not comparing caregiving to cancer, but I'm just saying that some really significant health thing or any other very difficult thing to deal with.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So unless uh but this is why support groups exist for everything practically, and if they don't, they should.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got Parkinson's, there are Parkinson's support groups.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you have um dementia, I mean Alzheimer's, uh this is some another little plug, but it's wonderful.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a memory cafe in your community, uh place for couples to go, or or your parents could go, or you could go with a parent, uh, everyone there is dealing with it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: They are either a caregiver or someone with dementia.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: But online support groups have been such a gift because one problem, and I have this, so people were saying, Well, I think, and there weren't support groups weren't a thing then when I first started, but as the years went by, there were a few developing.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, maybe you could go to support group by going, when?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: When?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the logistics of actually getting myself to a support group were just one more thing to do.
• 35:39
  unknown: Right.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I knew I could not add to my list.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: However, had there been more online, right?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: You can do it at three in the morning if you want.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I I am in and out of Dr.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Kernison's site all the time because I'm uh I was born a morning person.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I love early mornings, right?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I will often be, you know, just answering somebody shortly after they posted really late at night.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's almost like a conversation going on in real time.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And but agingcare care.com is a free support group.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very good one.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, years ago, I was actually the moderator there when they had a an in uh group moderator, and I did that for a lot of years.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's still running, and I I still interact now and then, and they're there, it's a very good site, really wonderful seasoned caregivers that are helping other caregivers.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you can go in there and you will not be judged.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh AERP has an excellent one on Facebook, that's another one that's free and very, very good.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you won't be judged, and uh and moderators will catch it if you get somebody who comes across as rude.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And most of these people don't mean to be, but they have a situation that's quite different.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but my point is that caregivers will understand you.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you just feel like you're broken, feel like you're burned out, no matter what, say it.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: These groups people will say, Oh, oh, I get it, I get it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: And just dumping that out, and you know, when I interviewed the the caregivers for my books, I I I kind of laughed because I sort of take notes um and with and I had some questions.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it took notes, but I mean I had some questions in case, but I usually I would say, How are you doing?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like 45 minutes later and it was like here.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, right.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and that that is what was needed, and I tried to capture that in my book, but this is what is these support groups are all about is you can vent, you can yes, ask pertinent questions where you want answers, of course.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: But also sometimes it's just like I just gotta say this to somebody who won't condemn me.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what support groups can do.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: So before you tell our audience where they can reach you and and get your book, um, is there any question I haven't asked you that you want to, you know, talk or any particular thing you want to share with the audience that I haven't asked?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: You will second guess yourself no matter what you do.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a given.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll you'll do it more after somebody passes away.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I can tell you that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've been through a lot of it.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh tell remember this.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: You are phenomenal if you step up.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: You are phenomenal for being there.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you won't get every day right.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: You won't do everything right.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: You'll have days when you think, oh, I knew better why I say that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let it go.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are other days, and you're a human being and you're trying to take on an impossible task.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can't make them happy every day.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it really isn't your job, you're there to help.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you'll do your best to make them content, to give them the best life they can have, but this is a difficult time, and and they're not gonna be happy all the time.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're not gonna be happy all the time.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's it but you are there, you showed up, and just showing up um is amazing.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I just um take care of yourself, take care of yourself, uh, pat yourself on the back for doing your very best, and um try and learn.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's all.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Try and learn and try and be forgiving to everyone, in your siblings, your parents, but most of all yourself.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Beautifully said.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Carol.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an insightful conversation.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: How can people follow you and your work and also how can they get a copy of your book?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: The easiest thing to remember, and my book is on Amazon, Minding Our Elders, Caregivers Share Their Personal Stories.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: But um easiest way to remember everything, including Dr.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Kernison and other resources that I've given, is go to miningourelders.com.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you prefer, because that'll take you to the blog, but you they they are all hooked together, mining our eldersblog.com.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: That is free.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to subscribe, you can sign up.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you can get daily emails, or once you're in there, you can change it to weekly if you prefer.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that works, and that will take you to directly to the Amazon link.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, you can there's a lot of information.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite there are a lot of categories on both sites, um, and um a little bit of digging will take you to a lot of information.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here, Carol.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate I appreciate the insight.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kwame.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it a lot.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And to all our listeners, thank you for spending part of your day with us.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you found this episode helpful, then subscribe to the Retirement Navigator podcast so that you will not miss future episodes.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can find more guidance and resources on our website at benefitsinsider.co.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to take this conversation further, then consider joining our next chapter community on the school platform.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: All the links to the resources are gonna be in the description to this podcast.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So until next time, remember that retirement is not the end, it's the beginning of a new chapter that you can navigate with clarity and confidence.