Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Queens Jogger Karina Vetrano's accused killer wants confession tossed

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Queens Jogger Karina Vetrano's accused killer wants confession tossed · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
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Speaker 1: one thirty two. A videotaped statement made by the man
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Speaker 1: accused of the notorious murder of a jogger in Queen's
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Speaker 1: was presented during a pre trial hearing. Arina Vactronto was
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Speaker 1: murdered while jogging and Howard Bach, the thirty year old,
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Speaker 1: was found dead. Her body was discovered just fifteen feet
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Speaker 1: away from a trail that she and her father ran
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Speaker 1: together nearly every day, but back paint forced him to
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Speaker 1: stay at home the afternoon she was killed. Detective Session L.
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Speaker 1: Lewis provided a detailed confession to the crime, and police
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Speaker 1: collected DNA samples from scores of young men before focusing
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Speaker 1: on Lewis. Kathy Patronto shared this chilling message to the
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Speaker 1: person who killed her daughter, Corina. The whole entire world
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Speaker 1: knows what a pathetic, puny, weak pisa felt that you are.
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Speaker 1: The retired firefighter has a message of his own for
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Speaker 1: the attacker. Justice will be served. A beautiful young girl
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Speaker 1: goes jogging every day with her father, a retired fighter fighter.
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Speaker 1: They're very close soul mates. One day he decides he's
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Speaker 1: down the back as we say, and he doesn't go.
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Speaker 1: She goes jogging, but then an hour passes, then an
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Speaker 1: hour and a half, and he the dad knows instinctively
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Speaker 1: that something is horribly wrong and begins frantically calling her
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Speaker 1: cell phone. He doesn't waste time, he immediately calls police.
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Speaker 1: Together they retrace her typical jogging route, and it is
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Speaker 1: her own father, Phil the Toronto that finds his daughter dead.
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Speaker 1: And now a shocking twist to the already disturbing story.
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Speaker 1: I Meancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us. Now we learn that the man who
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Speaker 1: who who turned the Pa Toronto's world upside down, who
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Speaker 1: left police on a wild goose chase for months and
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Speaker 1: months and months, and now is the poster boy for
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Speaker 1: something called familial d n A Taxi Ribo Clak Acid
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Speaker 1: has given a confession to the brutal murder and rape
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Speaker 1: a Carena Pa Toronto. But now he says, I'm not guilty,
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Speaker 1: not guilty. He'll have to argue it was a commerced
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Speaker 1: or fake confession. At what about the d n A
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Speaker 1: Should this even be allowed? I want to go straight
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Speaker 1: out to a special guest joining me. In addition to
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morrigan, homicide investigator, forensics expert. With me is
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Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. And also with me my
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Speaker 1: special guest today George Skiro, Director at scales By Logical Laboratory.
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Speaker 1: Whenever thirty years of experience as a forensic expert, a
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Speaker 1: scientist and crime scene investigator. First of you, Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: I want to review the facts, but before we do,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear what Karina's father, Phil the Toronto,
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Speaker 1: a retired firefighter, tells me. It was August two, broad daylight.
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Speaker 1: She left the house around five thirty, you know. She said, Daddy,
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go for a run. And she asked me
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Speaker 1: if I wanted to come, and I said I can't today, Karine,
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Speaker 1: because my back is hurt. And I asked her, are
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Speaker 1: you gonna go in there, meaning the trail in the weeds,
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Speaker 1: and she said yeah, And I said, Greene, did you
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Speaker 1: think it's a good idea? She said, don't want me, Daddy,
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Speaker 1: I'll be okay, and she went off and she was
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Speaker 1: only gone twenty minutes when this feeling came over me,
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Speaker 1: like like something but something was wrong. So I called
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Speaker 1: her phone at UH seven, six thirty, I was I
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Speaker 1: was watching the news, I was eating dinner, and I
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Speaker 1: just said damn. I didn't say damn, but the words
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Speaker 1: similar to damn. And my wife had just gotten home
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Speaker 1: from the hospital, and she said, what's the matter, And
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Speaker 1: I said, Karene is not answering her phone. And my
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Speaker 1: wife didn't even know. She went out for a run.
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Speaker 1: So I went looking for her. And I walked the
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Speaker 1: trail where we usually run. I stopped about two hundred
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Speaker 1: feet from where she was because I didn't think we
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Speaker 1: haven't went that far. And uh, I turned around and
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Speaker 1: I came out. I called a friend of mine in
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Speaker 1: in the p D and I told him Karine is missing.
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Speaker 1: She's not answering our phone. And within fifteen minutes we
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Speaker 1: had patrol. Cause within a half hour, we had helicopters,
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Speaker 1: we had bloodhounds, We had three people looking for her.
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Speaker 1: They happened to unlock her phone. She had a h fitting,
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Speaker 1: you know, an Apple product, which was very difficult to unlock.
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Speaker 1: But because Karina had asthma, they were able to unlock
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Speaker 1: the phone and we we found the location and at
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Speaker 1: ten thirty I went to where the phone was found
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Speaker 1: and I just she called me, you know, she came
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Speaker 1: to me and called means and and led me to
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Speaker 1: where she was and I just walked into the weeds
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Speaker 1: and found her. When you say she came to you,
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Speaker 1: what did you hear a voice in your head? What happened? No,
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Speaker 1: it's just the same way that I got the feeling
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Speaker 1: when I was watching the news when I knew something
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Speaker 1: was wrong. Uh, my carener and myself, we weren't just
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Speaker 1: you know, father and daughter. She was like my best
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Speaker 1: friend and we did everything together. You find your cell phone,
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Speaker 1: and then what happens, Well, the cops found the cell phone.
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Speaker 1: So I want to wear the where the police were.
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Speaker 1: There were about fifteen cops there at the time. There
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Speaker 1: was bloodhounds. There was a helicopter with heat sensor on it.
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Speaker 1: And I said, where's the phone and they pointed in
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Speaker 1: the direction he said, about fifty feet in. And you know,
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Speaker 1: they didn't touch the phone. They left it to c s.
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Speaker 1: I So I said, okay, you know it's pitch black now,
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Speaker 1: and I start looking deeper into the trail, you know,
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Speaker 1: just walking and then uh, I told myself or somebody
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Speaker 1: or something told me no, So I turned around and
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Speaker 1: I walked in the other direction. I got to about
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Speaker 1: fifty ft from where the phone was on the trail,
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Speaker 1: and I just stopped. And I you know, there's a
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Speaker 1: trail to the right and there's a trail to the left.
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Speaker 1: You can go anither way and the weed or eight
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Speaker 1: ft high, and I just stopped. I turned to my right.
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Speaker 1: I looked at the weeds, and I just walked in
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Speaker 1: and I made it about thirty five and that's where
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Speaker 1: she was. You know, she she needed her father, she
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Speaker 1: needed me to find her. There's no question to justice.
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, death investigator. What this guy says in court
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Speaker 1: Chanel Lewis is so disturbing. The family heard this. They
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Speaker 1: have personally reviewed his videotape confessions. He says that I
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Speaker 1: was mad, I saw red. He also denies a raping
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Speaker 1: her and says, I guess he says he killed her.
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Speaker 1: I guess what. Somebody else raped her, and so he's
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Speaker 1: gonna say that coincidently, somebody just happened to raper and
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Speaker 1: then he came in and killed her. Quote. He says
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Speaker 1: he grabbed a toronto as she ran past him through
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Speaker 1: aim More she swamp, that she clawed at his face
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Speaker 1: and he hit her five times before she was knocked unconscious. Quote,
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Speaker 1: she didn't yell, she was finished. I finished her off.
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Speaker 1: I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned,
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Speaker 1: he says coldly on videotape. I got up, I walked
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Speaker 1: off the blood, and she was calm. She was in
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Speaker 1: the pool of water. It was like all the way
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Speaker 1: over her face, he says of the puddle. And after
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Speaker 1: telling police how he quote finished her off, he seemed
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Speaker 1: to think he could pay his way out of a
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Speaker 1: murder one charge. He says, quote, I can straighten out
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Speaker 1: my stuff. I mean, you're the d A right. Where
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Speaker 1: do we go from here? Is this our restitution program
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Speaker 1: or something? What? Quote I finished her off? Then he
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Speaker 1: goes on Joe Scott to insist he did not molest her,
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Speaker 1: even though her jogging shorts had been pulled down. I
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Speaker 1: didn't quote, I didn't do any of the stuff they said,
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Speaker 1: sex assault, stuff like that, he says. He then walked
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Speaker 1: home up the bike path. Quote shaken up. He was
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Speaker 1: shaken up. Joe Scott hoping to get Napkins to quote
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Speaker 1: the bleeding from the scratches on his face, and then
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Speaker 1: when he was asked why he attacked the jogger. Who
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Speaker 1: has his name, It's Karina the Toronto. He says, because
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Speaker 1: the guy moved into my house and neighborhood. He said,
10:01
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of anger. Okay, Justice Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: you have been a witness in countless cases. I don't
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Speaker 1: even know how many felonies I've tried or investigated. I'm
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Speaker 1: want to hear your thoughts on this now. Pleading not guilty,
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Speaker 1: not guilty. Uh, that's an interesting, interesting thing to say,
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Speaker 1: isn't it. Let me throw you one other thing that
10:25
Speaker 1: he said as well. Uh. He's also quoted as saying, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: I beat her to let my emotions out. I never
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Speaker 1: really meant to hurt her. It just happened. So let
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Speaker 1: me get this straight. He he places himself there physically
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Speaker 1: at the scene of the crime, where he apparently laid
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Speaker 1: in wait. Nancy, this is a very narrow jogging path.
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Speaker 1: It's in a wooded area immediately adjacent to a beachside
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Speaker 1: area where people take their families. This young girl lived there,
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Speaker 1: He's young lady lived there with her with her father,
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Speaker 1: and he waited in the bushes until she jogged by,
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Speaker 1: and then as he got past as she got past
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Speaker 1: his position, he attacks her while her back is to him.
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Speaker 1: Then he drags her out into this marshy area. Now
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Speaker 1: he says, I beat her. Let me tell you what else.
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Speaker 1: They're saying. She was apparently struck in the back of
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Speaker 1: the head with some type of heavy object. They're thinking
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Speaker 1: possibly a rock. Now I don't know this definitively, but
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Speaker 1: she may very well have had a depressed skull fracture
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Speaker 1: that happens many times with these types of strikes. And
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Speaker 1: then she was strangled. And he's saying that he didn't
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Speaker 1: he didn't molest her at all. Nancy. You know she's
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Speaker 1: wearing jogging pants. Now, as everybody can attest to, jogging
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Speaker 1: pants don't just spontaneously fall off. Her pants had been
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Speaker 1: pulled down. This is in a very what we referred
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Speaker 1: to as an asymmetrical position. She's face down, Nancy. Can
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Speaker 1: you imagine in this dirty, filthy marsh water, face down.
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Speaker 1: She's been brutalized, beaten, strangled, she's bruised and scratched. All
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Speaker 1: she want to do is go out for a job.
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Speaker 1: Her pants are down, and he in this asymmetrical position
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Speaker 1: where he's dominant over her. Finally, finally just strangles out
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Speaker 1: the last bit of life that she had left in her.
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Speaker 1: He completely abused this woman. And to say that this
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Speaker 1: wasn't sexually motivated, give me a break. This is a
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Speaker 1: sexual attack. It's an attack of power. He raped her
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Speaker 1: and he choked her, and you know what, he may
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Speaker 1: have raped her after she was dead. We don't know.
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Speaker 1: But these this we do know. He has left his
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Speaker 1: DNA behind and that is a tough, tough mountain for
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Speaker 1: any defense team to climb. In this particular case, well,
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Speaker 1: there should be a treasure trove of DNA because let
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Speaker 1: me add some more facts to that for our special guest,
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Speaker 1: George skiro to digest Um again when Karindova Toronto had
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Speaker 1: not returned any of her dad's calls. And this really
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Speaker 1: hits home. Guys. You know, my dad passed away two
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Speaker 1: years ago, and that was one of the things, one
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Speaker 1: of the many things we did together. We I would
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Speaker 1: jog and he would walk. He had been a heart
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Speaker 1: patient since his late thirties, and he walked fat, race
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Speaker 1: walk fast, walked, religiously, and I would jog to keep
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Speaker 1: up with him. We did it on vacation, We did
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Speaker 1: it every time I went home. To visit always, just
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Speaker 1: like Karinova Toronto and her father Phil. So when she
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Speaker 1: didn't call back a couple of hours after she left,
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Speaker 1: he calls in yp D. You know he knows them
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Speaker 1: because he was a firefighter. He found his own daughter's body.
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Speaker 1: I mean, that is an image that will never get
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Speaker 1: out of his mind. Which I'll go to Dr Boberon
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Speaker 1: in just a moment, But this is what we know.
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Speaker 1: Detectives says. Joe Scott said she had been hit in
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Speaker 1: the back of the head with a rock, raped and strangled.
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Speaker 1: She thought she cracked her teeth off while biting her attacker.
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Speaker 1: She clenched grass in her hands as she was being
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Speaker 1: dragged off the jogging track trying to hold on. DNA
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Speaker 1: was under her nails, on her bat which had to
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Speaker 1: be semen, and on her phone in the weeds a
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Speaker 1: few feet away. Now, she was out jogging alone. And
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Speaker 1: when I say that, in fact, I almost didn't even
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Speaker 1: want to say that, Joe Scott, because somehow when I
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Speaker 1: say she was out jogging alone, people find fault with that.
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Speaker 1: Up she was jogging alone. What does she think was
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Speaker 1: gonna happen? Well, f y, I I go jogging or
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Speaker 1: walking almost every day. So what should should I not do? That?
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Speaker 1: Am I bad for that? I mean, have you noticed
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Speaker 1: that Joe Scott when we say she was jogging alone?
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Speaker 1: Somehow that has a bad connotation. Yeah, I mean, what
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Speaker 1: is she supposed to do? She spo to call you know,
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Speaker 1: every friend that she has and every family member. This
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Speaker 1: is something she's doing for personal fitness. This is something
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Speaker 1: she's going out and look, she has an expectation. She's
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Speaker 1: been on this path with her dad over the past.
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Speaker 1: It's probably a peaceful time that they can get together
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Speaker 1: and enjoy one another. And this is you know, that's
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Speaker 1: what makes us all the more tragic to this place
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Speaker 1: that she found a lot of joy with with her
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Speaker 1: dad probably ends in this kind of horror. And no,
15:23
Speaker 1: she's not at fault for going out and just taking
15:25
Speaker 1: care of herself as she you know, probably did on
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Speaker 1: a regular basis day to day. And who would think
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Speaker 1: that lurking over in the bushes is somebody that is
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Speaker 1: acting in a predatory nature that just just reaches out
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Speaker 1: from behind after she's passed by, knowing what he's doing,
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Speaker 1: and drags her off into this hell filled last few
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Speaker 1: moments of her life. Joining me right, now, as I
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Speaker 1: have touted, is a renowned DNA expert. It is George Skiro,
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Speaker 1: director of the Skills Biological Laboratory, with over thirty years
15:56
Speaker 1: of experience as a forensic scientist and a crime scene investigator.
16:00
Speaker 1: Before I go much further with the facts, George, I
16:04
Speaker 1: want to welcome you. Thank you for being with us
16:06
Speaker 1: here at Sirius sex In two and I want you
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Speaker 1: to enlighten us all for those that may not be
16:12
Speaker 1: familiar with d NA deoxyribonucleic acid. Every single person has
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Speaker 1: their own unique DNA. It cannot be replicated. It's like
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Speaker 1: a biological or genetic fingerprint. But what is familial DNA? George?
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Speaker 1: Because they tried, and they tried, and they tried. They
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Speaker 1: took the DNA off her body, George, and compared it
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Speaker 1: to CODIS, which was the you know, nationwide data bank
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Speaker 1: of DNA. No matches, so it looked as if it
16:44
Speaker 1: wasn't anybody that had a record. They couldn't find the purp.
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Speaker 1: It was excruciating, George. What is familial DNA? Well, thank
16:54
Speaker 1: you for having me, Nancy. Familiar DNA searching is where
16:58
Speaker 1: a database is search data database of DNA profiles. It
17:02
Speaker 1: searched to determine if there are any close matches that
17:06
Speaker 1: could have maybe come from a potential family member of
17:09
Speaker 1: of a of a perpetrator of a crime, to see
17:12
Speaker 1: if there if a link could be made that way.
17:14
Speaker 1: Then if there's a potential link made that way, and
17:16
Speaker 1: if it's a fairly strong, uh familiar DNA match, what
17:20
Speaker 1: they'll then do is get a DNA sample directly from
17:23
Speaker 1: that individual to compare directly to the evidence that's found
17:26
Speaker 1: at the scene. So bottom line, if you get DNA
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Speaker 1: on a crime scene to Justice Scott Morgan and it
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Speaker 1: doesn't match anybody in the DNA data bank, if you
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Speaker 1: can use there's just a handful of states that allow
17:39
Speaker 1: the use of familial DNA, although I think that's changing.
17:43
Speaker 1: You didn't take the DNA and you compare it to
17:45
Speaker 1: anybody in the data bank, and it can show up
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Speaker 1: if they're relative, is has been in jail, then you
17:53
Speaker 1: have an idea. I'm like, oh, this is somebody related
17:57
Speaker 1: to Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, I'm gonna go find Joseph
18:00
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan because he's in my data bank. He's got
18:02
Speaker 1: a rap sheet and I find Joe Scott Morgan and
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Speaker 1: I say, listen, familiar DNA popped up, and you're a hit.
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Speaker 1: Got any ideas where is one of your blood relatives
18:11
Speaker 1: might have done this thing, who lives in this area,
18:13
Speaker 1: who lives in this neighborhood. Blah blah blah. That's what
18:16
Speaker 1: familial DNA is, so explained to me, Joe Scott, your
18:21
Speaker 1: take on familial DNA. You know, Nancy, The really great
18:25
Speaker 1: thing about this, As you know, I'm a college professor,
18:27
Speaker 1: and one of the one of the things that I
18:29
Speaker 1: tell my students in class and the forensics classes I
18:32
Speaker 1: teach is that um people are always really focused on
18:36
Speaker 1: things like positive findings in science, Well, the test was positive.
18:40
Speaker 1: I tell my students that negative findings are just as
18:45
Speaker 1: important as positive findings. And the reason is is that
18:48
Speaker 1: in crime scene investigation and death investigation, one of the
18:52
Speaker 1: things that we're looking for is a starting place. If
18:55
Speaker 1: we have a negative finding, say for instance, that it
18:57
Speaker 1: doesn't appear in the CODIST database, that means we have
19:00
Speaker 1: a place to start. That means that we can push
19:02
Speaker 1: that aside and begin to look in other locations. So
19:05
Speaker 1: this is going to be a tie back, and it's
19:07
Speaker 1: going to give us an opportunity to dig deeper into
19:10
Speaker 1: who may have played a part in a particular case,
19:13
Speaker 1: and in this case in particular. And this is essential
19:16
Speaker 1: because I think that this is a historic moment. This
19:19
Speaker 1: case has has a lot of when we're not brought
19:23
Speaker 1: familial d n A to the forefront yet again. And
19:27
Speaker 1: let me tell you the A C l U the
19:29
Speaker 1: defense bar screaming, crying, whining that it's quote not fair.
19:36
Speaker 1: You know what. That's what John, David and Lucy say
19:38
Speaker 1: when they have no other argument. That's not fair. And
19:41
Speaker 1: I always say, you know what, You're gonna have to
19:43
Speaker 1: refine your argument and come up with an actual reason
19:46
Speaker 1: I should not take your iPad away. And when you
19:48
Speaker 1: do that, I will listen. But it's not fair, it's
19:52
Speaker 1: not specific enough. So that's where we're standing right now.
19:55
Speaker 1: I want you to hear what the police are saying. Now.
19:59
Speaker 1: This I who gives a video tape confession about the
20:04
Speaker 1: deathmatch he he put on Karina Vatronto before she was
20:09
Speaker 1: raped and murdered, How she knocked her teeth out, struggling,
20:14
Speaker 1: tore at the grass to save her own life. He
20:18
Speaker 1: tells all this about how he drowned her in a puddle.
20:22
Speaker 1: Now he's pleading not guilty. I want to thank our
20:27
Speaker 1: partners who are making today's program possible where we investigate
20:33
Speaker 1: the murder of a beautiful young girl and the devastation
20:36
Speaker 1: of her family. That family of Karina Va, Toronto. We
20:40
Speaker 1: are investigating what happened to her as we gear up
20:43
Speaker 1: for the trial of Chanel Louis right now. Thank you
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Speaker 1: zero six eight three, or go to Nancy's Beats dot
22:25
Speaker 1: com today. In fact, I need to drink about a
22:27
Speaker 1: gallon right now because I need energy. We are talking
22:32
Speaker 1: about the horrific murder of a beautiful young girl who
22:36
Speaker 1: had the audacity to go jogging one day. Her own
22:40
Speaker 1: father found her body filled. The Toronto retired firefighter who
22:46
Speaker 1: that one day was down in the back and did
22:48
Speaker 1: not go jogging with her as he usually did. Now
22:52
Speaker 1: joining me in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics professor
22:56
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University and death investigator, the director of
23:01
Speaker 1: Scales Biological Laboratory, George Skiro, and now joining me, Dr
23:06
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists. Dr Bober, thank you for being
23:10
Speaker 1: with us. I was just detailing the confession that he
23:14
Speaker 1: gave great a fine detail of the murder of this girl.
23:23
Speaker 1: How can he now and it's on video? How can
23:26
Speaker 1: he now claim he didn't do it? Dr Bober? Nancy,
23:30
Speaker 1: my concern about this case is that whether this confession
23:33
Speaker 1: was legally involuntarily obtained. I was reading something about okay, well,
23:36
Speaker 1: whit whit wa whit? Dr Bober? Are you serious? Are
23:39
Speaker 1: you just saying that for the argument's sake? I mean,
23:41
Speaker 1: are you actually concerned it was illegally obtained? It's on video? Well, Nancy,
23:47
Speaker 1: you and I both know that even a video confession
23:49
Speaker 1: could still be illegally obtained. I mean, really, how if
23:53
Speaker 1: it's on video, how would you even suggest this was illegal?
23:55
Speaker 1: Because we don't know what happened before the video started.
23:57
Speaker 1: Rolling number one number two that I was reading that
24:00
Speaker 1: this particular defendant attended a special school and there's concerns
24:04
Speaker 1: about his capacity to give a voluntary confession, So that's
24:07
Speaker 1: my concern. Hold on, just let me put your mind
24:12
Speaker 1: to rest. Dr Bober. He signed a statement saying he
24:17
Speaker 1: knows his rights, and on that statement are written his rights.
24:22
Speaker 1: Also on the video, he is given his rights. Yes,
24:27
Speaker 1: he did attend a private school for emotionally disturbed people.
24:32
Speaker 1: But are you suggesting that a confession of someone of
24:39
Speaker 1: a normal i Q with emotional disturbances is not fair?
24:42
Speaker 1: Because that's really not what the constitution says. Dr Bober.
24:46
Speaker 1: Back to we're back at square one, Dr Bober, where
24:49
Speaker 1: he gives a d a detailed, an intricate, detailed statement
24:54
Speaker 1: about how well, what do you mean by it's too detailed?
24:59
Speaker 1: Dr Bober? Could have been that it could have been
25:01
Speaker 1: fed to him. Oh okay, do you have any evidence
25:04
Speaker 1: of that either, Dr Bober? Is that just more of
25:06
Speaker 1: your speculation. Well, I'm sure his defense counsel will try
25:09
Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, that's not an answer. Do you
25:12
Speaker 1: have any facts to support he was he was fed
25:15
Speaker 1: the story? Or you just speculating? Okay, that's what I thought.
25:20
Speaker 1: So back to Dr Daniel Bober. Forensic psychiatrists joining me,
25:25
Speaker 1: Dr Bober, When you say too much detail, I assume
25:29
Speaker 1: that if there was not enough detail, you would say, oh,
25:32
Speaker 1: there's not enough detail. This isn't real. It's a false confession.
25:35
Speaker 1: Now you're telling me there's too much a detail. So
25:38
Speaker 1: maybe he was fed the confession. But isn't it quite
25:41
Speaker 1: the coinkieing the coincidence that his detailed confession matches exactly
25:47
Speaker 1: to the forensic evidence. The way she was killed, the
25:51
Speaker 1: fact her face was faced down in a muddy puddle
25:54
Speaker 1: that totally covered her face, the fact that she fought,
25:57
Speaker 1: the fact that he jumped out from gra gass high grass.
26:01
Speaker 1: I've seen it myself on the side of this jogging path,
26:05
Speaker 1: and that she fought, dragging the grass under her nails
26:09
Speaker 1: and grasping it to stay on the path and get
26:11
Speaker 1: away from him. That he has his face covered and
26:15
Speaker 1: scratches where she fought him actually breaking her teeth off,
26:19
Speaker 1: biting him. Are you saying it's just a mere coincidence
26:23
Speaker 1: that all of that forensic evidence matches his confession. Well,
26:29
Speaker 1: the detectives would have known a lot of that, loan
26:31
Speaker 1: a lot of that information to as well, so if
26:33
Speaker 1: they were going to beat it to him, they would
26:35
Speaker 1: have been the people to do it, not to mention
26:37
Speaker 1: the fact that it's not as open and said as
26:40
Speaker 1: we thought it was, because the DNA evidence is shaky too,
26:42
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying, well, who why whit whit white.
26:44
Speaker 1: Let's just take one of your arguments at a time.
26:47
Speaker 1: First of all, Dr Bober, have you ever heard the
26:50
Speaker 1: old saying you can't have your cake and eat it too.
26:55
Speaker 1: That's a yes, no answer, Dr Bober. So Dr Bober,
27:00
Speaker 1: and you agree that either he's too emotionally disturbed too
27:07
Speaker 1: give a valid or legal confession, or he is so
27:12
Speaker 1: clever that he can be here all these facts and
27:17
Speaker 1: then regurgitate them without prompting over quite a period of time. Hours.
27:22
Speaker 1: In fact, he gives a statement, So he you can't
27:25
Speaker 1: be so disturbed that you can't understand your rights. You
27:29
Speaker 1: have a right to a lawyer. You can't be that
27:31
Speaker 1: disturbed that you can't think straight and be able to
27:34
Speaker 1: give a lengthy confession that was fed to you earlier,
27:38
Speaker 1: and remember every forensic detail and shocking clarity. It's either
27:44
Speaker 1: one or the other. So which story are you picking,
27:47
Speaker 1: Dr Bouber? Well, Nancy, he was there, He was in
27:50
Speaker 1: the station for quite a while for several hours, and
27:53
Speaker 1: I believe an attorney for I believe the Legal Aid
27:55
Speaker 1: Society who was actually an expert in false confessions was
28:00
Speaker 1: had the tape or heard the taper from giving the
28:02
Speaker 1: confession and said that it sounded like it was scripted.
28:04
Speaker 1: I'd be curious to know who paid that expert in
28:08
Speaker 1: false confessions and how many times that expert in false
28:12
Speaker 1: confessions ever testified for the state, or do they make
28:16
Speaker 1: their living off representing and helping defendants charged with violent felonies.
28:24
Speaker 1: So now you're telling me that it kind of sounds like, Hey,
28:27
Speaker 1: I know a guy. Yeah, so Dr Daniel Bober says
28:31
Speaker 1: he heard some guy that said that herd that says
28:38
Speaker 1: he heard the confession that then said, oh sounds coerced
28:43
Speaker 1: to me. So who's the guy Dr Bober who is
28:46
Speaker 1: the expert with the New York Innocence Private Cancer I
28:48
Speaker 1: can for you, but I don't have Oh so you
28:51
Speaker 1: don't know his name or when he said it, or
28:54
Speaker 1: if he ever really even listened to the confession. It's
28:55
Speaker 1: just something what you read online. Well that's where I
28:57
Speaker 1: read the story. Was you know what, I've got some
28:59
Speaker 1: pro pty I'd like to sell you. It's a little swampy,
29:03
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's real valuable. Dr Bober. Now,
29:06
Speaker 1: Dr Buy, let's go dad to another thing you said.
29:09
Speaker 1: You said the d n A was shaky. The DNA
29:13
Speaker 1: evidence found on her body is quote shaky according to
29:19
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober. Why is it shaky? Dr Bober? When
29:23
Speaker 1: I had read Nancy was that there was actually a
29:25
Speaker 1: mixture of DNA under her finger nails and that they
29:28
Speaker 1: couldn't definitively tied the DNA evidence of the defendant. That's
29:31
Speaker 1: what I had read. I could be incorrect about that assumpthing,
29:34
Speaker 1: but that's that's what I read. They found DNA from
29:39
Speaker 1: the defendant on her back. There was a drinking bottle
29:44
Speaker 1: like an Arizona tea bottle out in the weeds that
29:48
Speaker 1: matched somebody else that has not been linked to the crime.
29:52
Speaker 1: It was in the vicinity, out on a public jogging trail.
29:55
Speaker 1: I want to go to Joseph Scott Morgan who was
29:59
Speaker 1: joining me in a adition to Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist
30:02
Speaker 1: and George Skiro. He was over thirty years of experience
30:06
Speaker 1: in DNA and crime scene investigation. Joe Scott, could you
30:10
Speaker 1: uh kindly give Dr Bober a recap of the DNA
30:15
Speaker 1: in this case, the DNA that was found on her
30:18
Speaker 1: person has, from what has been indicated thus far, been
30:22
Speaker 1: a tie back to the accused. Now, I don't know
30:25
Speaker 1: how they would have gone about manufacturing uh this DNA
30:29
Speaker 1: evidence and the odds I think are wholly against it
30:34
Speaker 1: that they could have fabricated such thing, and what would
30:36
Speaker 1: be their motivation behind all of this? I think that
30:39
Speaker 1: sometimes defense counsel utilizes the technology, attempts to use the
30:44
Speaker 1: technology that we use in forensics against us by trying
30:48
Speaker 1: to make it sound can you talk regular people talk, please,
30:51
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. I mean, I know you're talking to a psychiatrist,
30:55
Speaker 1: but the rest of us are listening. We can hear you,
30:57
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, So dial it down a minute, Okay, they go.
31:00
Speaker 1: Bottom line is they try to confuse everybody. They want
31:03
Speaker 1: you to look in the right hand when the evidence
31:05
Speaker 1: is really in the left hand. And that's what it's
31:06
Speaker 1: all about there, trying to create reasonable doubt here. But
31:08
Speaker 1: I tell you who really needs to comment on this
31:10
Speaker 1: is George George Hiro because I tell you this, the
31:13
Speaker 1: reality is this the odds, the odds in this case
31:17
Speaker 1: will blow your mind. Okay, you know I was trying
31:19
Speaker 1: to get it in regular people talk from you Joe Scott,
31:21
Speaker 1: before I went to our DNA expert, but that that
31:24
Speaker 1: got me nowhere. Uh, George Skiro, I know you're the
31:28
Speaker 1: director at the Skills Biological Laboratory, but could you um
31:32
Speaker 1: dial it down a notch. This is why I had
31:34
Speaker 1: to go and meet with medical examiners before trial so
31:38
Speaker 1: we could go through each line. And let me tell you,
31:42
Speaker 1: it took hours to deal with a doctor and go
31:45
Speaker 1: through each line of his or her report to get
31:48
Speaker 1: them to explain it in terms we could all understand
31:52
Speaker 1: even if we don't have a medical degree. So George,
31:56
Speaker 1: please explain to me and especial lead to Dr Dana Bober,
32:02
Speaker 1: the significance of the d n A in this case. Well,
32:06
Speaker 1: in this case, according to what I've read, uh, the
32:09
Speaker 1: there was DNA from Lewis found on her cell phone
32:12
Speaker 1: and on her back. And what's been reported, It's been
32:14
Speaker 1: reported as a match, and a match usually indicates a
32:17
Speaker 1: single source. And then what will happen is whenever there's
32:21
Speaker 1: an inclusion or match, we have to give us statistical
32:24
Speaker 1: weight to it. And in this case, the statistical weight
32:27
Speaker 1: will probably be in the trillions, perhaps quadrillions if it's
32:30
Speaker 1: a complete match, meaning that with the exception of a
32:34
Speaker 1: possible identical twin, that that uh, that Chanel Lewis is
32:38
Speaker 1: the source of that DNA sample on the back of
32:41
Speaker 1: the cell phone. Uh. In addition, UM, there was a
32:44
Speaker 1: mixture that was found under the fingernails, and it's a
32:47
Speaker 1: mixture of several people, but they could not exclude Mr Lewis.
32:52
Speaker 1: But then again, once you have the two strong matches,
32:55
Speaker 1: that kind of outweighs everything else that might be or
32:58
Speaker 1: maybe um, because when you have something, especially when it's
33:02
Speaker 1: a cold case like this, and it was a cold case,
33:05
Speaker 1: just not a very long term cold case. Uh, and
33:08
Speaker 1: then you have someone's DNA profile developed on it, and
33:11
Speaker 1: then that person's DNA profile is later determined by taking
33:15
Speaker 1: a sample directly from that individual. Then UM, there's there's
33:19
Speaker 1: not gonna be any any there's not gonna be able
33:21
Speaker 1: to be anything saying that it was secondary DNA transfer
33:24
Speaker 1: or it was Okay, okay, you're going all m d
33:26
Speaker 1: on me right here, Hold on, George and Joe Scott.
33:30
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober So could you explain to me and
33:34
Speaker 1: you're world. I'm not gonna say fantasy world. But in
33:40
Speaker 1: your world, Dr Daniel Bober, how Chanel Louis, who she
33:44
Speaker 1: had never met before d NA ends up on her
33:49
Speaker 1: bare back. Well, he could have wandered up on the
33:53
Speaker 1: body after it was already assaulted as well, and touched
33:56
Speaker 1: her body and her phone and wandered up on it.
33:59
Speaker 1: Believe me, it's not that kind of DNA, that's not
34:02
Speaker 1: touched DNA. I have reason to believe it's sperm. You know,
34:05
Speaker 1: semen from sex. But he also denied any sexual contact
34:10
Speaker 1: with the victims, So if it was semen, then that
34:11
Speaker 1: would make him a liar. Yeah, but I asked you again,
34:16
Speaker 1: what in your world and your world of false coerced
34:20
Speaker 1: confessions and conspiracy plots? Um? Dr Bober, could you give
34:25
Speaker 1: me any reasonable explanation it's why he is sperm or
34:28
Speaker 1: DNA is on her back and she's dead. Well, if
34:32
Speaker 1: it's a semen, obviously that's pretty damning evidence. What what
34:36
Speaker 1: Dr Bober? What what was that? Could you repeat that
34:39
Speaker 1: for the court play? If it turns out to be
34:42
Speaker 1: the biological material, if it's semen, then it's a pretty
34:44
Speaker 1: damning evidence of that he committed the crime. I was
34:49
Speaker 1: hoping you were going to go down the road of
34:51
Speaker 1: the police planet it like you know, Ju Simpson, And
34:53
Speaker 1: then I could wait to tell you that, yes, he
34:56
Speaker 1: gave d N a volunt Well you have to. You
35:00
Speaker 1: can't not give DNA if you have a warrant for it,
35:03
Speaker 1: unlike giving a statement. You never have to do that.
35:06
Speaker 1: But it was a bugle squad which was from his mouth.
35:09
Speaker 1: And if I'm correct that this is sperm on her back.
35:13
Speaker 1: You know, believe me, he did not give that up.
35:16
Speaker 1: He gave a bugle squad, which is saliva. Guys, I
35:19
Speaker 1: want to pause in our investigation to the brutal murder
35:23
Speaker 1: of the jogger Karina pa Toronto, who was an accomplished woman,
35:30
Speaker 1: had graduated, gorgeous, had a wonderful job and a bright future.
35:36
Speaker 1: Now dead, and the man accused of killing her gives
35:39
Speaker 1: a chilling, chilling, heart stopping confession quote. I finished her
35:45
Speaker 1: off and she was calm. I guess she was. She
35:48
Speaker 1: was facing down in water in a pool of mud.
35:52
Speaker 1: Now he says he's not guilty. We are investigating the
35:58
Speaker 1: facts as we know them with experts from around the country,
36:01
Speaker 1: including George skiro DNA expert Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist
36:07
Speaker 1: and death investigator and forensics professor Joseph Scott Morgan. I
36:12
Speaker 1: want to thank now our partner who's making today's investigation possible.
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Speaker 1: When I done for dentist, we are discussing the facts
38:10
Speaker 1: and the brutal, brutal death of this beautiful girl, Carena
38:13
Speaker 1: a Toronto. I want you to hear what her father
38:16
Speaker 1: feel tells me. There was plenty of evidence and I
38:21
Speaker 1: was told by chief detectives the very next day saying
38:25
Speaker 1: we're gonna get this guy, and we're gonna get him
38:27
Speaker 1: right away. But little did anybody know that he, this person,
38:33
Speaker 1: this murderer, was not in the database and his DNA
38:37
Speaker 1: was never on fire. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. Yes, Oh,
38:46
Speaker 1: I just don't. I don't understand it, feel because this
38:49
Speaker 1: is uh, this is contrary to everything I know, and
38:54
Speaker 1: I know it to be true about cribble psychopathy. You
38:58
Speaker 1: don't just suddenly one day commit a murder. It doesn't
39:02
Speaker 1: happen like that typically, especially a murder like this. It's
39:07
Speaker 1: so hard for me to believe he has never been
39:10
Speaker 1: in trouble before. And the reason we're talking about this everyone.
39:14
Speaker 1: For a moment, I was felt like I'm just talking
39:17
Speaker 1: on the phone to feel the Toronto. This is Karina,
39:20
Speaker 1: the Toronto's father. We're talking about DNA in the DNA
39:27
Speaker 1: database codus like aphis, which is the fingerprint database. Everybody's
39:33
Speaker 1: in there. If you have ever had a federal job,
39:35
Speaker 1: a government job, if you've ever gotten booked on anything,
39:39
Speaker 1: there's an Now, sometimes people get fingerprints for all sorts
39:43
Speaker 1: of reasons, pawn shops, you name it. That goes into APHIST.
39:47
Speaker 1: Now there's codas for d n A and if you
39:51
Speaker 1: are convicted in many jurisdictions, your DNA goes into a
39:57
Speaker 1: data bank. Whoever m ordered this beautiful girl, their DNA
40:03
Speaker 1: which was found at the Saint is not matching up
40:05
Speaker 1: to a database. A lot of people don't understand that
40:10
Speaker 1: only criminals DNA are in the database, so only targeting
40:15
Speaker 1: criminals with me. Jof Scott, Morgan, Dr. Daniel Bober and
40:18
Speaker 1: George Skiro. George, could you explain what George Jeff Scott
40:23
Speaker 1: was saying earlier about the likelihood, the statistical likelihood that
40:28
Speaker 1: this is Chanel Lewis's DNA. The statistical likelihood is going
40:31
Speaker 1: to be probably in the millions, trillions or billions that
40:35
Speaker 1: it's his d NA. Like I said, with the exceptional
40:37
Speaker 1: of identical twins, Um, he will probably be identified as
40:42
Speaker 1: the source of that DNA. You mean like one out
40:45
Speaker 1: of a trillion likelihood. Yeah, the probability of randomly selecting
40:49
Speaker 1: someone from the population would be one in a trillion. Okay,
40:52
Speaker 1: hold on, let me think. So you're saying, see if
40:55
Speaker 1: I'm taking a Vegas bet, and you know, of course, George,
40:58
Speaker 1: I'm not a betting woman. Um, you're saying that it's
41:05
Speaker 1: one out of three trillion or three trillion to one
41:09
Speaker 1: that this is his DNA. I mean, how would you
41:11
Speaker 1: say that? And common people talk so we can all
41:14
Speaker 1: understand what you're talking about the way I would, I
41:16
Speaker 1: would explain it is the probability of me closing my
41:19
Speaker 1: eyes and just going out anywhere in the world and
41:22
Speaker 1: grabbing someone. The probability of me grabbing someone with that
41:25
Speaker 1: profile would be one in however many trillion or quadrillion.
41:29
Speaker 1: It may be well, why how many people are in
41:31
Speaker 1: the world? What's the world? I mean, that's bigger than
41:33
Speaker 1: the world population, isn't it. Yes, currently the world population
41:36
Speaker 1: is around seven point two billion. How did you just
41:39
Speaker 1: know that off the top of your head? That's a
41:41
Speaker 1: little freakyge or just a tiny bit. I wouldn't throw
41:44
Speaker 1: that out again, just like that, at least pretend I
41:47
Speaker 1: was looking it up on Google or something. But I'm
41:49
Speaker 1: going to just take your word for it because you've
41:50
Speaker 1: been right about everything else. To Dr Daniel Bober, I
41:53
Speaker 1: want to get back to you about course confessions. I
41:56
Speaker 1: feel like a cat holding a mouse between my paws
41:58
Speaker 1: right now. It really feels good a Dr Bober, Now
42:01
Speaker 1: what about this whole Coerse confession thinking, yes, I know
42:03
Speaker 1: that they do happen. I know that they can happen.
42:07
Speaker 1: I know it's very very rare, but that it can happen.
42:11
Speaker 1: But how can you even, let me just say, fix
42:13
Speaker 1: your mouth to say that this could be a co
42:15
Speaker 1: Werse confession when his DNA is there and all everything
42:19
Speaker 1: he says matches the forensic evidence. Dr Bober, Yeah, I'm
42:22
Speaker 1: not saying that it's extremely likely. I'm just saying, okay, now,
42:26
Speaker 1: that's not exactly the way you sounded the first time
42:28
Speaker 1: I asked you, But you know what, I'll go with it.
42:31
Speaker 1: So what this means, bottom line, is that the family
42:34
Speaker 1: is going to have to live through a trial. And
42:37
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a shot of Chanelle Lewis, he's actually
42:40
Speaker 1: smiling at the camera. I mean, I don't know how
42:44
Speaker 1: you do that. Kathy Vatronto, what's out a pained moan
42:52
Speaker 1: as she hears for the first time Chanil Lewis calmly
42:56
Speaker 1: detail how he beat her daughter unconscious before he strangled
43:02
Speaker 1: her dead. This video that I'm talking about the reason
43:05
Speaker 1: we know so much about it as because it was
43:09
Speaker 1: played at a pre trial hearing and it showed the
43:12
Speaker 1: alleged killer describing to police the attack. I was mad,
43:17
Speaker 1: quote I saw red, he says as to why he
43:21
Speaker 1: killed her, and then he says that he killed the
43:24
Speaker 1: Toronto uh that he found on a jogging trail because
43:28
Speaker 1: a guy moved into my house and neighborhood. He says,
43:31
Speaker 1: he grabs of the Toronto as she jogged past, that
43:35
Speaker 1: she clawed at his face and he beat her in
43:38
Speaker 1: the face five times before she was not unconscious. Quote,
43:43
Speaker 1: she didn't yell she was finished. I finished her off.
43:47
Speaker 1: I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned.
43:50
Speaker 1: I got up, I wiped off the blood, and she
43:53
Speaker 1: was calm. She was in the pool of water. Then
43:56
Speaker 1: he goes on to say, after he quote finished her off,
43:59
Speaker 1: I can stra eating out my stuff. Right, this is
44:01
Speaker 1: about where do we go from here? Is this a
44:03
Speaker 1: restitution program or something? Dr Daniel Bober Do you think
44:07
Speaker 1: they fed that to him too? Sounds pretty specific, It's
44:10
Speaker 1: possible of it. Again, before he confessed, he told a
44:12
Speaker 1: detective Detective Barry Bowen, I want to change my life.
44:16
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what I did. He insists he did
44:19
Speaker 1: not molester, even though her jogging pants had been pulled down. Quote,
44:24
Speaker 1: I didn't do any of the stuff they said, sex assault,
44:27
Speaker 1: stuff like that, according to the tape. Then he says
44:31
Speaker 1: he walked home quote shaken up, looking for napkins to
44:35
Speaker 1: stop the bleeding of the scratches on his face. Took
44:38
Speaker 1: six months to find him when he volunteerly gave a
44:41
Speaker 1: cheek swab and it it matched DNA found under the
44:46
Speaker 1: victim's fingernails. Now, George skiro other than there being a
44:49
Speaker 1: potential accomplice, why would there have possibly been other d
44:54
Speaker 1: NA under her nails. Well, that's not uncommon to see
44:58
Speaker 1: mixtures of DNA found under pete most finger nails. Uh,
45:01
Speaker 1: just coming in contact with everyday people, of the people
45:04
Speaker 1: in your household, Uh, there's gonna be other people whose
45:07
Speaker 1: DNA is going to accumulate there um. And also there
45:10
Speaker 1: is a potential that, you know, whoever handled the body afterwards,
45:13
Speaker 1: their DNA could have ended up there um. And like
45:15
Speaker 1: I said, it's not uncommon to see mixtures under under fingernails.
45:19
Speaker 1: I don't believe that there was any contamination. I'll tell
45:22
Speaker 1: you why. Because the father, who was a retired fire
45:25
Speaker 1: fire firefighter, calls in his friends at the n y
45:28
Speaker 1: p D. He was an n y P He was
45:30
Speaker 1: an n y f D New York Fire Department and
45:33
Speaker 1: they're there with their friend and I think they gave
45:37
Speaker 1: very careful attention to bagging her hands, explained Joe Scott.
45:41
Speaker 1: One of the steps that will take at at a
45:43
Speaker 1: crime scene before the body is removed is it's a bag.
45:46
Speaker 1: Will be specifically bagged in paper bags and taped around
45:49
Speaker 1: the risk externally and that way in transport. First off,
45:53
Speaker 1: the hands of the decease. You don't want them contacting
45:55
Speaker 1: anything that might otherwise leave some kind of trace evidence there.
45:59
Speaker 1: And also anything that falls off of the hands and transport,
46:02
Speaker 1: remember they're going back to the O. C M E
46:05
Speaker 1: and bouncing down the road. Things can literally fall away
46:08
Speaker 1: from the hand and you fail to collect them. So
46:10
Speaker 1: when bodies and a lot of people won't realize this
46:13
Speaker 1: when bodies arrive at the morgue. In cases like this,
46:16
Speaker 1: the bags are carefully clipped away from the hands and
46:18
Speaker 1: the contents of anything. Some of the stuff is not
46:21
Speaker 1: seen with the unaided eye. That means you have to
46:23
Speaker 1: have a microscope or a high powered magnifying lens to
46:25
Speaker 1: see it. We're gonna test everything that's in that bag.
46:28
Speaker 1: You just want to make sure that you don't lose anything.
46:31
Speaker 1: And this is standard operating procedure in almost every major
46:35
Speaker 1: city that I know of where corners involved in medical
46:37
Speaker 1: examiners are involved. It's just the way we conduct business
46:40
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, because we know these cases are
46:43
Speaker 1: gonna come into question at some point in time. They're
46:45
Speaker 1: gonna go back and they're gonna look at these things
46:47
Speaker 1: with a fine toothcomb, making sure that we adhere to
46:50
Speaker 1: the rules of evidence. Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists joining us.
46:54
Speaker 1: I predict that this confession will come in. I think
46:58
Speaker 1: the reason one of the reasons they're playing not guilty
47:00
Speaker 1: as they hope they'll get a deal and some prosecutor
47:03
Speaker 1: will choose to take the deal rather than take it
47:05
Speaker 1: to trial. It but I predict it will go to trial.
47:08
Speaker 1: So Dr Bober, what would they have to show to
47:12
Speaker 1: make a valid argument? Not that I believe it, but
47:14
Speaker 1: at least make a showing in court hoping one err
47:16
Speaker 1: will get hung up on it. And this is a quote,
47:18
Speaker 1: as you say, conferred coerce confession. I would like to
47:21
Speaker 1: see a neuropsychological testing on the defendant. Uh, competency evaluation.
47:26
Speaker 1: I would just like to know more about his mental capacity.
47:28
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