Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / Changing Your Life & Starting Over: Therapy vs. Coaching 2|08
Transcript
- Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we're here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with your funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: We talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're talking about the hidden grief of intentional life pivots, how to calm your nervous system during a major transition, and how to know exactly what kind of professional support you need to help rebuild. Daiana, LMHC: And before we jump in, I feel like every time you leave for like four days or anything, I'm like, you got you were gone so long. So I just Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: wanted to do a little check-in and specifically since we're both kind of doing the we do doing the same thing, like you did something this past week and I'm doing something this weekend. What is your current go to for finding a little calm these days? Cassandra, LMHC: Ooh, well. We talk about like self care, like society talks about self care a lot, right? And they're like, get a massage, get a facial, get your nails done. But like self care can be so many different things. It can be Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: just kind of finding twenty minutes in a day to do something that is for you and only you. so this last weekend I went away and I visited with some family and it was fantastic. I I didn't set any alarms. I didn't wake up at any specific time. I didn't like worry or spend the entire time on the phone, like trying to manage my children's lives from afar. I just went and did the thing. And and that was fantastic. And I I really appreciate that time and my family for hosting me and all of the things. But it's not always plausible to do that, right? It's not always Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: plausible to pick up and go and do all of this stuff. So for finding a little bit of calm, quite honestly, like one of my favorite things to do is to go to bed unreasonably early. like I joke about being in bed by like eight o'clock, but now I'm legitimately usually in bed by eight thirty. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: and just having a little bit of time to unwind before the next day starts, it really that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: really does a lot for me. Daiana, LMHC: Do you read in bed? Cassandra, LMHC: Sometimes but it actually makes me kinda sleepy. So yeah, but if I'm gonna Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Well that would be the point, right? To go to say that. Cassandra, LMHC: read, I wanna be like attentive. But this last weekend when I was gone, Daiana, LMHC: No. Cassandra, LMHC: I actually finished an entire book. From like the beginning to the end. I read the whole book. Well, I listened Daiana, LMHC: my god. What a treat. What a treat. Cassandra, LMHC: to Sunwood on Audible. But, you know, I got through it. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm. No. Doesn't it doesn't matter. Yeah. That is a treat though. So like a lot of times it takes forever to read a book 'cause we keep stopping. Cassandra, LMHC: It does. I have a whole stack of books behind me that are just like, hey, you know you bought us. Daiana, LMHC: Uh-huh. Cassandra, LMHC: And those are only those are only the ones you guys can see. I don't like there's a bookshelf Daiana, LMHC: No. Cassandra, LMHC: right here that's not really in frame. And then there's my nightstand. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of those too. Just waiting. Cassandra, LMHC: So what do you like to do to find a little bit of calm? Daiana, LMHC: I think that the reason that I ask like right now is because I think it just changes a Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: lot. I and I also notice that I know a lot of things that keep me calm, but that's not the common experience. A lot of times we don't know, like you said, we don't know what we need. And I don't think it's something that came right away for me. Like it's taken time. And things like having a little getaway, a little road trip, seeing being in a different environment helps me. So like you said, it's not something you can do all the time. especially to go without, you know, the kids and the family. So that's what that's a huge treat. I'm gonna be going away this weekend on a road trip with my family. And it's not the same because you you're you have a lot more to do, but I'm trying to remind myself that it's n you know, don't do too much. Don't do too much. And just we wanna be more in nature and we're gonna unplug. So things like that. And I think on a daily basis, what I've been doing more that gives me calm is just literally pausing and just allowing for silver linings, allowing for I remember last last season we talked about glimmers. Like what Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: is like a glimmer of hope or a glimmer of of a good feeling, especially when you're you're feeling sad or grief where everything just doesn't feel good. But if you I know that when I quiet down and just pause, good things do come, good thoughts or good feelings. So I've been just pausing. Could be as simple as that. Cassandra, LMHC: Giving yourself just a little bit of space. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, Cassandra, LMHC: It's a powerful tool. Daiana, LMHC: yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And also just that reminder for me that it is something that we don't always know. And that's okay. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And sometimes looking for ideas online may not be the thing either. because that's that's maybe what works. And I feel like sometimes we get so much information that we don't know what to do because Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it's too much. So I think that introspectiveness will help. Cassandra, LMHC: Well also comes with all sorts of like expectations. Like if this worked for someone else, it's gotta work for me, right? It's gotta. And that's not always the case. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. All right, so we're gonna move forward. And in episode seven, which is the episode right before this one, we talked extensively about getting older and the shifts that happen in our identity. But today we're gonna ask a different question. What happens when you are the one that initiates massive change. Because next week we're gonna bring on Amy Kelly. She's a coach that did exactly that. She made the choices to make the change Cassandra, LMHC: Okay. Daiana, LMHC: and realized how much grief it came with. Right. So today we're gonna lay down some of those frameworks for chosen loss and how gratitude actually biologically regulates you, regulates your body. Amidst the grief, and we're gonna have a guide where we're to help you know what do you need during this time in your life? Do you need a therapist or a coach or do you need both? Would you benefit from both? And please take a moment to subscribe. It means the world to us. So that chosen loss, Cassandra, I've I Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: know I've said it myself and it's confusing when you're going through it, that but I chose this. I chose to leave the relationship. I chose to I chose to quit the job. Why do I feel so bad? Cassandra, LMHC: Well, we expect to to grieve when someone takes our identity, right? Like they Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we're it's thrust upon us, someone passes, something changes, we get fired, one of those things. But what Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: happens when you intentionally peel a label off, like corporate high achiever or or or husband or sister, any of those things. Sometimes society can expect you to feel devastated or they can expect you to feel liberated, but the loss Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: of that familiar identity actually creates a huge emotional void. It's it's the guilt of I asked for this, so I shouldn't be sad, which often va like blocks that valid grief that comes up. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And we don't always allow ourselves to grieve the grief because we're busy telling ourselves, I did this. I don't have a right to be upset about it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I know I I've experienced that in the past, especially during like one of the larger breakups in my life. Like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I asked for this, I shouldn't be upset. And it's just not fair. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. Cause it's like you're blaming yourself. The thing is, I think that as humans, I know that as humans, we avoid pain. So in making the choice, it does feel empowering. And it still does because it's not taking away that empowerment and that autonomy and authority of your of your life to make that change. And it does not take away. Like you're not avoiding the pain. You're not gonna avoid the loss. I believe that if you don't like your job and you hate your job and you wanna quit and you do it in your own terms, it still feels better than being fired. So it it is important for you to make the decisions that you can in your life, just to know that it's not gonna, it's not gonna you're not gonna avoid the pain. There's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: no outrunning it. And also with these when we talk about secondary losses and the chosen letting go of something because you just need to and want to, you taking your making that choice, like leaving a marriage or a career, what you're doing is you you are disrupting that primary foundation. It's being disrupted, right? No matter who does it, even though you made the choice, it still hurts. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And you have these cascading losses, these this avalanche that still happens, when you're relocating, you may lose some friends, you may have if you're even if you chose to leave your job, you might have financial stress. And then there could be losses within that that you did not choose or that you didn't realize were gonna happen, like All of a sudden your daily routine is completely thrown off. Cassandra, LMHC: Or even like the friends that you always had Saturday night dinner with, they choose a different side. That that's a huge loss that we don't necessarily Daiana, LMHC: Mm, mm, mm. Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: consider when we're considering all of the different angles. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: But also things like that don't necessarily keep us from making the hard decision. We just kind of take it in stride and understand that it's what comes with that sort of grief. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And when I was mentioning avoiding the pain where we are what we're experiencing is dysregulation, shock in our bodies. And the fear that we feel in our bodies about starting over. And sometimes we know it's it's like the the job you hate, but you stay there because it's like it's familiar. Even if it's miserable and you didn't want to be there, it's still in it's still an interruption. And the brain is telling you that it's that you are safe because it's predictable. You know you hate it. You Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: know you're gonna meet, see that person you don't want to work with, or you know, whatever the case may be. It's predictable. So when you let it go and you shed that identity, your body is not gonna automatically feel free. And and I know that that's a a common like I that another should like I should feel better because I was so stressed there and I'm still Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: stressed, And because you're going through a process, it is terrifying to leave a relationship, to leave a bad situation. And it's going to send your nervous system into fight or flight. It's going to your your system is gonna have a response. Like, am I am I actually okay? Right, because the change hasn't happened. You just left a cer a situation. So you can Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: move, You can leave the country. You can move to another state. You can change time zones and want to escape, but you can't bypass that that initial biological shock. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. And it's kind of where things get murky and difficult in the Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: wellness space because while you're physically experiencing this transition in your body, there's the panic, the exhaustion, the dysregulation. You also start to naturally look for help to help you regulate your nervous system. this phrase is everywhere on social media right now and Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: it's a it's a hot topic of conversation, like regulate Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: your nervous system. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: Click here to find out. Like there's a lot of different options out there. I I've actually been interested in learning a little bit more like s about somatic options, just Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: how movement can change how your body functions. I think that's fascinating. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I do appreciate people talking more about these options. The thing that just naturally happens is that we then believe that that's that that's what's going to work. And and Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that's the answer. And and it with anything, just to notice that there are trends, there are catchphrases. And just simply we just wanted you to know the difference between managing your daily. nervous stress and treating clinical trauma. Right. So for example, I I practice I'm trained in accelerated resolution therapy, and that treats clinical trauma using bilateral stimulation. And it's a complete process that the therapist takes the the client through. That's very different from a daily nervous system stress mindfulness practice where you are deep breathing. or you're doing yoga or working out or doing the thing that calms you in the moment Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: in your day-to-day. Right. So when you're in the thick of it, you're in this life pivot, you can access those tools. Those are tools that do help your body feel safe. Right. This I mentioned it earlier that intentional gratitude. It's that's one of the words too that it's been around for a while now. And it can get watered down and not really be connected to how much it does affect your body. If we think about a really bad time, we think about the sadness, our body reacts to it. And you feel the all of the sadness all over because what you're thinking about. And we don't utilize the other side, which makes us feel better, which is to remember a good time. I mentioned in, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I believe, the last episode about loss of friendship and still remembering the good times with the friend and keeping the pictures of the trips or the experiences, birthdays, all those things, because those times were good. So we can also tap into the good parts. And that is not toxic positivity. That's not saying you are not sad. It's just to also do the other the other side. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: To look at what you are grateful for. You're looking at your current life. You're looking at maybe opportunity, or you're looking at the people that are around you that you love. Maybe you're grateful for the new path, even though it's scary. Finding that gratitude, it engages the parasympathetic nervous system. And that's another word that we hear a lot when it comes to like vibrations and and literal vibration in your body to help calm your nervous system. Right. It it gives you that baseline. It gives you puts you back in that baseline when everything feels like chaos. Cassandra, LMHC: And that's a really great example of the present day coping skills that you were talking about, like the here and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: now, the things that we can do to help regulate what's going on in the moment. But if that fight or flight state isn't just from like a recent life change or pivot, but's actually rooted in deep unhealed past trauma. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: A gratitude journal just might not cut it. a simple Daiana, LMHC: Right. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: exercise just isn't gonna fix it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And I know that you mentioned that you do ART therapy. I've actually been through that, and I can tell you that the difference between Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right. Cassandra, LMHC: experiencing ART versus keeping my gratitude journal was absolutely profound. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: she took a situation that I couldn't help but have a traumatic response to. I was triggered every single time this happened and smoothed Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: out the edges and made it manageable for me. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I was so grateful for that. Daiana, LMHC: Hm. Cassandra, LMHC: So relying only on surface level tools or someone who isn't clinically trained to handle what happens when like these deep seated wounds do open up, sometimes it can do more harm than good. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: But everybody likes something a little bit different, right? There's there's a Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Cassandra, LMHC: place for everybody in in mental health. There's a place for everybody in in the world of processing that that works. And I think Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it's more important to figure out what works for you and what doesn't work for you, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: rather than like what you see on social media or what you find on clickbait. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I know that coaching in many ways feels, especially when you're not feeling good, feels like more accessible or more like, you know what, I don't want to think about my past. I want to be in my present and I want to w move forward. Right. And that is a good thing because you are doing something in your present day. Right. When I have clients that are so dysregulated in their daily lives. Like we have to be in the present first before we go back. Because if you're not okay today, if you're not, you don't have to be at your best. Obviously, you're not gonna be, but you can't be in such a bad place to be able to to do the work. So coaching for many people is like the gateway, the gateway drug to to therapy. And for some people, they never even they don't go to therapy. They're just like I I feel good, like because all of it makes sense now with what I'm doing. I know I was afraid because of this or that. And I'm and I'm so glad I I started coaching, right? So Cassandra, LMHC: no. Daiana, LMHC: but it is important. And so this is like the nooks and crannies of our conversation today. Is how do you know if your dysregulated nervous system needs a therapist or if you need a coach, right? If this pivot in your life, you need a coach. And I just wanna go over some of those distinctions in our show notes and and if it doesn't fit there, definitely on Sunday in our newsletter we'll have the have a whole chart and and just more resources. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Well, before we start, I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: just wanted to to point out that this is this is a brief overview. It's it's not an exhaustive list and it doesn't touch on every single aspect of every single thing. It's just kind of a snapshot of what what we're talking about. There's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: huge amounts of nuances to both professions, but we thought it might be helpful to give you the core differences so you might have an idea of where to start. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yes. Thank you for that. All right. So when it comes to therapy, there is there is the stigma of if I go to therapy, there's something wrong with me. There's something profoundly wrong with me. It's not that I'm going through something, right? And and I get why people know, you know, believe that and feel that because you are exploring your your past, your roots, the causes. for what's going on, There is the clinical part of it that because of what you've been through, there may be depression, there may be complex grief, and there is a structure to it. It is regulated by the healthcare system. You do need a state license, and you need a state license in your state. So for example, because Sandra and I were both licensed in Florida, we can get licenses in other states, but we can't practice there until we get that license. Right. therapy, you could have a clinical diagnosis. You don't have to. Usually for insurance purposes, you would, but for private pay, you don't. And that is just that is what is required for your insurance so that it's medically necessary and they pay for it, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And it is legally protected by HIPAA laws. And then with Cassandra, LMHC: Now coaching, sorry, I was just thinking about coaching because I am a LMHC, but I I'm also a certified life coach. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: so those are services that I offer to other other individuals that aren't necessarily looking for a therapeutic approach. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: coaching itself, it folks it focuses like on the on the present and Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: it's future focused. It's action oriented and it's a partnership about accountability and mindset and building habits from a baseline of wellness. So it Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we don't necessarily get into the the why of it. We get into Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: more the forward moving. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It tends to be less regulated Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: than than what you would find in an LMHC or LBC or whoever it is that you're seeing. it's not healthcare HIPAA, so HIPAA doesn't apply unfortunately with it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: So we often recommend to look for coaches who are certified by re reputable bodies like the ICF, because I believe that they are then required to do CEUs and things of that nature and continue Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. yeah. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: learning and continue moving forward with the information that they have and that they're offering others. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if you find a therapist like Asandra that lives in Florida, but you live in a different state and you need life coaching, she could do that because it's the, Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: you know, you don't need to have a a license. So that it it does bring so much more flexibility for you to work with the person that you want to work with. And now with you Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: know, with Zoom and everything, you have a lot more access. so you know, like we were saying, nervous system coaching is really popular and it And it can sound clinical, it can overlap, right? and when you're thinking about your nervous system, right, just remember if it's coaching, it's present-day stress grounding. Because how are you gonna get to those future girls? the the coach can tell you more directly, you know what a lot of people want from therapists, like just tell me what to do. A coach is gonna tell you what to do, and sometimes we need that. Sometimes we need that because Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: that pushes us to try something. And then from trying something, we are like, no, I love this, or no, like this is not for me. I'm gonna try this other thing. Right. So if you are with a coach and you're thinking about really traumatic things like childhood abuse or or just releasing trauma from your body and If you've been diagnosed with PTSD and you're working through those things, then that's when you would notice. Okay, no, maybe I that's when I I have to see a therapist because we also took like we also have this oath like we can't we not to do any harm, right? So it's just the the different type of training. I have done business coaching, which I absolutely loved. I was like, I'll do business coaching over going to get a business degree right now. Like You know, so there are huge benefits. I don't want you guys to think that one is better than the other because I've done both. And actually I started life coaching after being in therapy for years and needing that push to move forward or to get ideas of how to move forward now Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: and to not be afraid of being of doing scary things. So I love both. I honestly I love both and I've needed it in different times in my life. Cassandra, LMHC: I love the idea of it being a healing team. Like every part Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: works together to help support us through some of the hardest or best parts of our lives. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: I love being able to go in and tell my therapist about good things that are happening. And I love hearing Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: as a life coach about things that people have implemented and that are working for them. I it it's a it's a really neat transition. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, it is. All right. So we're gonna just say one thing from each. the we're gonna give you a guide to which support do I need. And it's like a a checklist. And for example, if you say my grief or anxiety is actively interfering with my daily life and I'm struggling to sleep, I'm struggling to eat or work, that would be you need therapy, right? But if you're saying I'm functioning day to day okay, I'm I'm all right. But I feel stagnant. Like I don't, I need someone to help me with an action plan or I don't like my job and I do want to change, but I don't know what that is because my identity has always been in this one in this career. Coaching is amazing for that, right? So we have a a few ch a few things that you can check off there. And the thing is that it's not either or. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-mm. Like we mentioned Daiana, LMHC: It it could be both. Cassandra, LMHC: before, people use a lot of both. they use therapists to do the foundational healing and a coach to help exec execute actionable steps forward. The Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: key is simply ensuring that whoever you hire is operating safely within their specific co scope of practice and Daiana, LMHC: Hell yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: that you get along with them, quite honestly. Like I've tried on a lot of yes, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. For both. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: like Never feel like you're stuck with one or the other because sometimes Daiana, LMHC: Well yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: maybe someone's mustache reminds you of your third grade teacher and you didn't appreciate Daiana, LMHC: Okay. Cassandra, LMHC: how he failed you in mathematics. You might need to find someone else. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Right. And both of both coaching and therapy, you may not get it the first time. To wrap up today, we're moving on to our favorite segment, Living Loss Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing grief, it's about finding the strength to carry it. So looking back on everything we've talked about, Daiana, what is one lesson you'd like to leave our listeners with? Daiana, LMHC: Well, it all comes down to that you are the expert of your healing, of your journey. And yes, vet your support system carefully. Therapist and coaches, right? Ensure that your therapist understands the what you're going through. So I was we were talking earlier about different types of Therapist that I think need to be a specialist. Like if you're gonna go do couples counseling, make sure they're a couples counselor, that they're trained in that. Right. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And if it's a coach that you do do your consultation, that I forgot what they call it. It's it's like it's a call. It's a one hour call that they go through everything and and trust yourself with that of if that person is a good match and you feel like they can help you. Right. So at the end of the day, you are the expert and just keep in mind that not digging into your past trauma with coaching. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. And then like what we mentioned above, you can hold immense grief for the life you chose to leave while s at the same exact time, practice Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: intentional gratitude for the new path that you're on. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Just let the gratitude be the grounding tool that calms your nervous system when that grief feels so Daiana, LMHC: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Cassandra, for sharing your experience. I I found that I I think I knew that you did ART, but just that that was a really good connection about how it feels. If you're curious, do both. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: Do both, right? Well, thank you, and thank you to our listeners for spending this time with us. Be sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss next week's episode with our guest, Amy Kelly. Where we take everything we learned today and see how it played out in her real life, when she reinvented her life. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we're not your therapists. and this unfortunately does not replace professional mental health care. But if you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: And we'll see you next week on The Living Loss