Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #2: Interview with Devin Glim, Staff Lawyer, and Patrick Robitaille, Clinic Placement, ARCH Disability Law Centre

Transcript

Curb to Cabin Canada Episode #2: Interview with Devin Glim, Staff Lawyer, and Patrick Robitaille, Clinic Placement, ARCH Disability Law Centre · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:10
  Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings from Toronto, and welcome to Curb to Cabin Canada.
• 0:15
  Podcast Commentator: What really happens to blind and low-vision passengers when they fly?
• 0:20
  Podcast Commentator: Your host, Donna J. Jodhan,
• 0:23
  Podcast Commentator: is a lifelong blind advocate and law graduate whose landmark Charter case in
• 0:28
  Podcast Commentator: 2010 compelled the Government of Canada to make its websites accessible to all
• 0:33
  Podcast Commentator: Canadians, not just those with sight.
• 0:37
  Podcast Commentator: Each episode follows one part of the air travel journey from curb to cabin,
• 0:42
  Podcast Commentator: and asks the airlines, airports, and agencies a single question:
• 0:47
  Podcast Commentator: Is this working?
• 0:49
  Podcast Commentator: Donna serves on accessibility advisory committees in the aviation sector.
• 0:54
  Podcast Commentator: None of them pays for this programme, and none sees a question before it is asked.
• 0:59
  Podcast Commentator: Curb to Cabin Canada is presented to you by Donna J. Jodhan,
• 1:03
  Podcast Commentator: with support from sponsors to be announced.
• 1:06
  Podcast Commentator: None of our sponsors have any say in what this programme reports.
• 1:11
  Podcast Commentator: Now, let's dive in with your host, Donna J. Jodhan.
• 1:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everybody,
• 1:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to another episode of Curb to Cabin Canada,
• 1:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the podcast where we talk about what really happens when
• 1:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disabled Canadians travel and what it takes to make every
• 1:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: step of that journey work.
• 1:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan. I'm blind, I fly,
• 1:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I know how much can go wrong between the curb and the cabin.
• 1:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Today, I'm here with Devin Glim,
• 1:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a staff lawyer at ARCH Disability Law Centre, and his law student,
• 2:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Patrick Robitaille.
• 2:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In the spirit of full disclosure,
• 2:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ARCH has acted for me personally in the past.
• 2:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Devin and Patrick, welcome to the show.
• 2:21
  Devin Glim: Yeah, hi there.
• 2:23
  Patrick Robitaille: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 2:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So Devin, before you went to law school,
• 2:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you were an organizer with the Disability Justice Network
• 2:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: of Ontario's Youth Action Council in Hamilton,
• 2:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: helping to push for city-funded sidewalk snow
• 2:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: clearing and for reform of Ontario's Assistive
• 2:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Devices Program. That's a lot.
• 3:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What carried you from City Hall to delegations to
• 3:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Osgoode Hall Law School and the Disability Law
• 3:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Intensive
• 3:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at ARCH,
• 3:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what can a lawyer do for disabled people that an
• 3:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: organizer cannot do,
• 3:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and the
• 3:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: reverse? Tell us.
• 3:30
  Devin Glim: Thanks, Donna.
• 3:32
  Devin Glim: Yeah, so,
• 3:36
  Devin Glim: at that time, I was in university,
• 3:40
  Devin Glim: and I really just wanted to make a difference in my
• 3:46
  Devin Glim: community.
• 3:48
  Devin Glim: And it was also
• 3:50
  Devin Glim: something that affected me personally as a wheelchair user.
• 3:57
  Devin Glim: And so that kinda
• 4:00
  Devin Glim: started it all.
• 4:03
  Devin Glim: And I found that I liked advocating.
• 4:09
  Devin Glim: I liked helping people.
• 4:12
  Devin Glim: And so that is one of the main reasons that I
• 4:18
  Devin Glim: pursued law
• 4:20
  Devin Glim: at Osgoode Hall.
• 4:24
  Devin Glim: And yeah, coming to ARCH,
• 4:28
  Devin Glim: it just felt like a
• 4:30
  Devin Glim: natural fit for my interests.
• 4:36
  Devin Glim: In terms of what a lawyer can do versus an organizer,
• 4:43
  Devin Glim: I think
• 4:45
  Devin Glim: in order to make effective change,
• 4:50
  Devin Glim: you need both lawyers and organizers.
• 4:57
  Devin Glim: The laws that exist today are often strict,
• 5:03
  Devin Glim: and lawyers have to operate within them.
• 5:10
  Devin Glim: And so there are certain things that a lawyer cannot help with,
• 5:16
  Devin Glim: or cannot pressure politicians to change the laws
• 5:22
  Devin Glim: and things like that, whereas
• 5:25
  Devin Glim: an organizer who may not have the same restrictions
• 5:31
  Devin Glim: on them can lead the community into
• 5:37
  Devin Glim: creating that pressure to affect change.
• 5:45
  Devin Glim: Lawyers can do that as well,
• 5:49
  Devin Glim: but it is often
• 5:54
  Devin Glim: more effective when it's an organizer that is within
• 6:00
  Devin Glim: said community that is seeking that change.
• 6:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you've done a bit of everything, haven't you?
• 6:09
  Devin Glim: [laughs] Yeah.
• 6:13
  Devin Glim: Not yet. There's still a little over—
• 6:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: There's still—
• 6:16
  Devin Glim: I think—
• 6:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Still a long way to go, right? [laughs]
• 6:18
  Devin Glim: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How long have you been with ARCH?
• 6:24
  Devin Glim: I started with ARCH
• 6:31
  Devin Glim: four years ago. I think three or four years.
• 6:36
  Devin Glim: And as a lawyer, this is my second year.
• 6:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
• 6:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I think you were Gabriel's student
• 6:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: when I had the case against the CBSA.
• 6:53
  Devin Glim: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. That's right.
• 6:56
  Devin Glim: I was either
• 6:58
  Devin Glim: an intensive student or, like, our second year.
• 7:04
  Devin Glim: But yes.
• 7:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I remember that. [laughs] So Patrick,
• 7:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you are joining us as a law student working with Devin at
• 7:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: ARCH. What drew you to disability rights law?
• 7:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What does a student actually do on a transportation file?
• 7:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what has surprised you most about how the law treats
• 7:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: travellers with disabilities?
• 7:38
  Patrick Robitaille: Well, Donna, thank you so much. It really is a pleasure to be here.
• 7:41
  Patrick Robitaille: And I have to say, it really is a pleasure to
• 7:45
  Patrick Robitaille: work under Devin. It's an amazing experience here.
• 7:49
  Patrick Robitaille: And I'm really, really grateful for it.
• 7:54
  Patrick Robitaille: So to talk about the three sort of questions you asked me there,
• 7:58
  Patrick Robitaille: like what drew me to disability law,
• 8:02
  Patrick Robitaille: I think in my first year of law school,
• 8:06
  Patrick Robitaille: I took an elder law course, and it had a really big impact on me.
• 8:10
  Patrick Robitaille: It helped me to appreciate that
• 8:13
  Patrick Robitaille: the law operates in ways that can pose challenges for certain people.
• 8:18
  Patrick Robitaille: And when I found out about the Disability Law Intensive programme,
• 8:21
  Patrick Robitaille: I was drawn to it.
• 8:22
  Patrick Robitaille: I wanted to learn how you can address these kinds of challenges head-on from a
• 8:27
  Patrick Robitaille: legal lens.
• 8:28
  Patrick Robitaille: And I guess essentially I wanted to learn how to use my education to make a
• 8:32
  Patrick Robitaille: difference.
• 8:35
  Patrick Robitaille: When you think about in the setting here what a student does on a transportation
• 8:39
  Patrick Robitaille: file, students at ARCH wind up doing a real wide variety of tasks on a file.
• 8:45
  Patrick Robitaille: And a transportation file is no different. So
• 8:49
  Patrick Robitaille: I think what's invaluable about the experience here at ARCH is that students
• 8:52
  Patrick Robitaille: are really in the trenches throughout the life cycle of a file.
• 8:55
  Patrick Robitaille: So you're working directly with clients under the guidance of these experienced
• 9:00
  Patrick Robitaille: lawyers.
• 9:02
  Patrick Robitaille: You get to conduct a real wide range of research to understand all the potential
• 9:05
  Patrick Robitaille: legal issues and their implications.
• 9:08
  Patrick Robitaille: You get to present solutions, even non-legal solutions perhaps,
• 9:14
  Patrick Robitaille: that can best help the client resolve an issue.
• 9:18
  Patrick Robitaille: And ARCH is a really interesting place because the practice here with
• 9:23
  Patrick Robitaille: one-on-one clients ultimately supports—
• 9:29
  Patrick Robitaille: this work ultimately
• 9:31
  Patrick Robitaille: supports the broader disability community across Ontario and beyond.
• 9:37
  Patrick Robitaille: So it's really, really interesting work.
• 9:41
  Patrick Robitaille: And what surprises me most
• 9:44
  Patrick Robitaille: about how the law treats travellers with disabilities,
• 9:48
  Patrick Robitaille: I would say,
• 9:50
  Patrick Robitaille: and this could be true of
• 9:53
  Patrick Robitaille: many of the areas of law I'm exposed to here,
• 9:56
  Patrick Robitaille: is it's the complexity of everything.
• 9:58
  Patrick Robitaille: It's just how different laws have different jurisdictions.
• 10:02
  Patrick Robitaille: In the context of travelling, it could be something applies domestically,
• 10:06
  Patrick Robitaille: but as soon as that aircraft carrier gets outside of domestic borders,
• 10:11
  Patrick Robitaille: there's different standards that apply.
• 10:13
  Patrick Robitaille: And the gaps in these protections between jurisdictions and how disability law as a
• 10:18
  Patrick Robitaille: practice works to sort of fill these gaps for clients and how regulations and laws
• 10:26
  Patrick Robitaille: in this area of law act to sort of provide a bare minimum standard.
• 10:32
  Patrick Robitaille: And the difference sort of between
• 10:35
  Patrick Robitaille: providers being required to provide certain accessibilities versus
• 10:39
  Patrick Robitaille: accommodations that they have to make.
• 10:40
  Patrick Robitaille: So it really is complex and it's really context-specific and I think that's what I
• 10:46
  Patrick Robitaille: enjoy
• 10:48
  Patrick Robitaille: a lot about it,
• 10:49
  Patrick Robitaille: and I think it's definitely what surprises me most about it.
• 10:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess there's also the added complexity between provincial and federal
• 10:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: laws, you'd say?
• 11:00
  Patrick Robitaille: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 11:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A lot to deal with.
• 11:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Now, as a blind traveller myself,
• 11:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hear the same story again and again.
• 11:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The passenger asks for help getting through the airport and is
• 11:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: met with a wheelchair instead of a sighted guide.
• 11:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Under Canadian law,
• 11:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: is a blind passenger entitled to the kind of assistance that they
• 11:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: actually need rather than the kind that is easiest to provide?
• 11:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what can they do when they decline the wheelchair
• 11:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and the help simply disappears?
• 11:54
  Devin Glim: That is a great question, Donna.
• 11:58
  Devin Glim: I want to start off by saying it's always advisable to
• 12:05
  Devin Glim: let the airport and the airline know well in advance
• 12:11
  Devin Glim: of an alter of your accommodation needs.
• 12:18
  Devin Glim: So
• 12:19
  Devin Glim: with that in mind,
• 12:24
  Devin Glim: within Canada, we essentially,
• 12:28
  Devin Glim: in accordance to Air Canada, we have the
• 12:33
  Devin Glim: Canada Transportation Act.
• 12:37
  Devin Glim: And within that act is the Accessible
• 12:42
  Devin Glim: Transportation for Persons with Disabilities Regulations,
• 12:48
  Devin Glim: or the ATPDR.
• 12:52
  Devin Glim: And so that law and regulations
• 12:58
  Devin Glim: provide protections for people with disabilities
• 13:04
  Devin Glim: who are travelling on a flight,
• 13:10
  Devin Glim: either domestically or internationally.
• 13:16
  Devin Glim: It is only a bare minimum
• 13:22
  Devin Glim: of protection.
• 13:24
  Devin Glim: It does not
• 13:28
  Devin Glim: erase or eliminate any undue human rights law
• 13:34
  Devin Glim: or the duty to accommodate that exist in other pieces of
• 13:40
  Devin Glim: legislation.
• 13:44
  Devin Glim: I think
• 13:46
  Devin Glim: Patrick, you want to add to that?
• 13:49
  Patrick Robitaille: Yeah, Donna, maybe to speak
• 13:52
  Patrick Robitaille: with sort of what Devin has just set in mind as a lens or some context to this.
• 13:58
  Patrick Robitaille: In regards to your specific question,
• 14:00
  Patrick Robitaille: at an airport a blind passenger may be entitled to the assistance they require
• 14:06
  Patrick Robitaille: rather than what is simply easiest to provide.
• 14:10
  Patrick Robitaille: So the Canadian Transportation Agency,
• 14:13
  Patrick Robitaille: which operates under the act that Devin mentioned,
• 14:17
  Patrick Robitaille: adopts the principle of self-determination.
• 14:20
  Patrick Robitaille: Service providers need to accept a person's own assessment of what their
• 14:24
  Patrick Robitaille: needs are and how to best meet those needs.
• 14:29
  Patrick Robitaille: The provider also has an obligation to communicate with the traveller about this.
• 14:35
  Patrick Robitaille: Additionally, personnel are required to have training in guidance and/or
• 14:41
  Patrick Robitaille: orienting a person with visual impairment.
• 14:44
  Patrick Robitaille: And they have to provide this assistance within the person's preferred method and
• 14:49
  Patrick Robitaille: to the best of their ability. This also comes out of the regulations from the act.
• 14:55
  Patrick Robitaille: So essentially the provider must give way to the request to not be given a
• 14:59
  Patrick Robitaille: wheelchair in this situation.
• 15:02
  Patrick Robitaille: It is, I think,
• 15:03
  Patrick Robitaille: worth noting the regulations do allow a provider to offer meaningful options.
• 15:10
  Patrick Robitaille: But regarding
• 15:12
  Patrick Robitaille: the help disappearing completely when a wheelchair is refused,
• 15:16
  Patrick Robitaille: a service provider is not authorized to provide accommodations in a way that
• 15:21
  Patrick Robitaille: detracts from a person's sense of dignity and confidence.
• 15:24
  Patrick Robitaille: So complete withdrawal of assistance would likely fall into this category.
• 15:30
  Patrick Robitaille: So what can a person do in this situation?
• 15:34
  Patrick Robitaille: I guess as a practical
• 15:36
  Patrick Robitaille: bit, try to find someone who works there, someone… It could be somebody in security,
• 15:41
  Patrick Robitaille: it could be someone from another airline carrier.
• 15:45
  Patrick Robitaille: And explain your situation and the help that you're seeking.
• 15:48
  Patrick Robitaille: I think it's important that you document in detail what has happened to you so that
• 15:52
  Patrick Robitaille: you have that
• 15:54
  Patrick Robitaille: for the future if you need to reference it.
• 15:58
  Patrick Robitaille: It would be recommended to contact the airline and the airport.
• 16:02
  Patrick Robitaille: And obviously you can file a complaint
• 16:05
  Patrick Robitaille: with the airline or with the CTA, the Canadian Transportation Agency.
• 16:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, I'm not sure if I was hearing correctly on my last trip.
• 16:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I was told that if I did not take the wheelchair to the
• 16:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: door of the aircraft, then they would not be taking me into the aircraft.
• 16:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not sure about that. You have any comments?
• 16:38
  Devin Glim: Every situation is different,
• 16:42
  Devin Glim: and I unfortunately don't have all the information than,
• 16:48
  Devin Glim: like, currently
• 16:51
  Devin Glim: say what happened.
• 16:55
  Devin Glim: But again,
• 16:58
  Devin Glim: the
• 16:59
  Devin Glim: airlines
• 17:01
  Devin Glim: have a duty to accommodate without reducing or without
• 17:08
  Devin Glim: disrupting the other person's dignity and confidence.
• 17:14
  Devin Glim: So
• 17:16
  Devin Glim: I'm not really sure what to say about that specific situation.
• 17:23
  Devin Glim: That seems like that shouldn't happen.
• 17:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think what really bothers me still, it's not as much as before,
• 17:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but it's still there, it's when you go to book your trip,
• 17:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you say you're vision impaired or you're blind,
• 17:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what comes out of the mouth of the agent?
• 17:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "Do you require a wheelchair?" And I say, "No, I told you I'm vision impaired.
• 17:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't need a wheelchair." But it still gets under my skin at times when
• 18:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the agent says that.
• 18:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So, yeah.
• 18:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: A blind passenger experiences one continuous journey,
• 18:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but it is managed by several organizations:
• 18:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the airport at the curb,
• 18:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the airline and often its ground-handling contractor
• 18:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at check-in and the gate, and the Canadian
• 18:34
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Air Transport Security Authority at screening.
• 18:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When assistance fails at one of those handoffs,
• 18:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tell me, who is legally responsible,
• 18:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and does it change anything when the person who fails
• 18:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: works for a contractor rather than for the airline
• 19:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: itself?
• 19:10
  Devin Glim: So I do not do two cases
• 19:14
  Devin Glim: that use whatever may be unhappy, I'm gonna say,
• 19:19
  Devin Glim: are general statements.
• 19:22
  Devin Glim: And again, each situation is different.
• 19:29
  Devin Glim: And
• 19:32
  Devin Glim: so
• 19:34
  Devin Glim: I guess in terms of the responsibility of the staff and
• 19:39
  Devin Glim: Patrick and other contractors,
• 19:45
  Devin Glim: it really depends on what part of the journey that
• 19:51
  Devin Glim: the failure occurred.
• 19:55
  Devin Glim: Generally, anything that is flight-related
• 20:02
  Devin Glim: is the airline.
• 20:05
  Devin Glim: This includes, or this may include, the check-in,
• 20:11
  Devin Glim: moving through security,
• 20:15
  Devin Glim: issues with boarding the plane.
• 20:20
  Devin Glim: And there may be other aspects where the
• 20:26
  Devin Glim: airport is responsible or another
• 20:32
  Devin Glim: organization. So it really depends on the situation,
• 20:38
  Devin Glim: where you are, which city, what airport,
• 20:44
  Devin Glim: what country,
• 20:45
  Devin Glim: and all of that.
• 20:49
  Devin Glim: In terms of contractors, Pat, do you wanna take that one?
• 20:54
  Patrick Robitaille: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Patrick Robitaille: Regarding contractors,
• 20:59
  Patrick Robitaille: airlines and airports are generally responsible for the contractors that they
• 21:04
  Patrick Robitaille: retain.
• 21:06
  Patrick Robitaille: So
• 21:07
  Patrick Robitaille: I guess another way to put that is airlines and airports can't escape a legal
• 21:12
  Patrick Robitaille: responsibility by using an outside party or a contractor.
• 21:17
  Patrick Robitaille: Contractors need to be properly trained to provide assistance.
• 21:21
  Patrick Robitaille: Essentially, they're gonna be held to the same standard as employees.
• 21:25
  Patrick Robitaille: And as
• 21:28
  Patrick Robitaille: the Canadian Transportation Agency has affirmed in
• 21:34
  Patrick Robitaille: recent decisions,
• 21:36
  Patrick Robitaille: this holds true,
• 21:37
  Patrick Robitaille: that contractors are gonna be held to the same standards if they're operating under
• 21:42
  Patrick Robitaille: an airline or an airport.
• 21:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Because I know that several years ago,
• 21:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I had a case against a certain airport for the same reason,
• 21:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and they tried to escape responsibility by saying, "It's the contractor,
• 21:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: it wasn't them." And we argued this and we argued this,
• 22:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and finally the CTA said, "No, you are responsible,
• 22:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: not the contractor." But it took a few years for us to get to the stage when
• 22:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the airport authority finally could not do anything because they were told,
• 22:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: "It's your responsibility. It's not your contractor's responsibility."
• 22:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And they really argued this vociferously.
• 22:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, things have changed a little bit,
• 22:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but that was a harrowing experience for me and—
• 22:34
  Devin Glim: Definitely. And I think it
• 22:39
  Devin Glim: also shows how
• 22:42
  Devin Glim: challenging litigation can be,
• 22:47
  Devin Glim: and how, like
• 22:49
  Devin Glim: how does it argue for your rights can take a lot of time and
• 22:55
  Devin Glim: energy.
• 22:57
  Devin Glim: So it's always something that needs to be considered.
• 23:03
  Devin Glim: But yeah.
• 23:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well,
• 23:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: when a passenger with a disability decides to take the complaint
• 23:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: further,
• 23:14
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: there are two main doors:
• 23:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the Canadian Transportation Agency,
• 23:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: which in 2026
• 23:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: can award just over $24,000 each for pain
• 23:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and suffering and for a wilful or reckless practice,
• 23:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and the Canadian Human Rights Commission,
• 23:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: where Tribunal awards for pain and suffering are capped
• 23:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: at $20,000.
• 23:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And a complaint
• 23:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: filed more than a year
• 24:01
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: after the events may be turned away.
• 24:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How should a traveller choose between these two doors,
• 24:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and why does that choice matter so much?
• 24:18
  Patrick Robitaille: Donna, that is a great question,
• 24:20
  Patrick Robitaille: and I think maybe I'll start just by saying that there are two doors here,
• 24:26
  Patrick Robitaille: but the Canadian Transportation Agency has been given authority to deal with
• 24:32
  Patrick Robitaille: accessibility and human rights complaints pertaining to travel.
• 24:36
  Patrick Robitaille: So this should be the chosen path if the barrier here is specific to actual
• 24:41
  Patrick Robitaille: transportation.
• 24:43
  Patrick Robitaille: In fact, there's actually a good chance
• 24:46
  Patrick Robitaille: if an issue like this was filed through the Human Rights Commission,
• 24:50
  Patrick Robitaille: the commission would send the case over
• 24:53
  Patrick Robitaille: to the Canadian Transportation Agency because they're the ones now with
• 24:56
  Patrick Robitaille: jurisdiction for this.
• 24:59
  Patrick Robitaille: And so the Canadian Transportation Authority can theoretically as well,
• 25:03
  Patrick Robitaille: as you mentioned in the question, provide higher compensation,
• 25:05
  Patrick Robitaille: but I did wanna note
• 25:07
  Patrick Robitaille: it can be difficult to get this.
• 25:09
  Patrick Robitaille: You made mention of wilful and reckless practice or disregard.
• 25:15
  Patrick Robitaille: And the burden of proving that is quite high. It's very seldom
• 25:19
  Patrick Robitaille: successful.
• 25:20
  Patrick Robitaille: So although it may read that there is a higher payout there,
• 25:25
  Patrick Robitaille: that can sometimes be a little bit more difficult to attain.
• 25:28
  Patrick Robitaille: But I think one benefit for sure,
• 25:31
  Patrick Robitaille: and you had mentioned this about the limitation on the Human Rights Commission,
• 25:34
  Patrick Robitaille: is that the Canadian Transportation Agency doesn't have that limitation.
• 25:39
  Patrick Robitaille: So you don't have to file within a year. You're able to file
• 25:43
  Patrick Robitaille: without that limitation period.
• 25:47
  Patrick Robitaille: I think it's also important to recognize that the Canadian Transportation Agency
• 25:52
  Patrick Robitaille: only provides compensations for harm directly related to the transportation.
• 25:57
  Patrick Robitaille: So it's not going to consider losses for
• 26:01
  Patrick Robitaille: things in the periphery like hotels and other
• 26:05
  Patrick Robitaille: expenses.
• 26:07
  Patrick Robitaille: The Canadian Transportation
• 26:10
  Patrick Robitaille: decision-makers, this is also interesting
• 26:12
  Patrick Robitaille: to note, they've been given this jurisdiction to hear these
• 26:18
  Patrick Robitaille: complaints because they have expertise when it comes to transportation and when
• 26:23
  Patrick Robitaille: it comes to understanding and interpreting the underlying legislation.
• 26:27
  Patrick Robitaille: So they really truly are likely to be more effective at assessing these cases and at
• 26:32
  Patrick Robitaille: providing appropriate remedies.
• 26:35
  Patrick Robitaille: And on the note of their expertise,
• 26:38
  Patrick Robitaille: that means that as an expert tribunal,
• 26:43
  Patrick Robitaille: if a case were won and it was appealed and ended up in the courts,
• 26:46
  Patrick Robitaille: the courts are gonna give a lot more deference
• 26:49
  Patrick Robitaille: to them as a decision-maker and the decision that they made because they have
• 26:53
  Patrick Robitaille: a lot of expertise in the area.
• 26:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying then that it would be more effective to go to the Canadian
• 27:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Transportation Agency
• 27:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: rather than—
• 27:03
  Patrick Robitaille: Yes. I think
• 27:07
  Patrick Robitaille: with all the things that I've mentioned,
• 27:08
  Patrick Robitaille: I think most specifically because they have been given that jurisdiction
• 27:14
  Patrick Robitaille: and they are the proper channel to hear a travel-related complaint.
• 27:18
  Devin Glim: Yeah. And just to add, right?
• 27:22
  Devin Glim: Again, if a person was to go to the commission,
• 27:28
  Devin Glim: the commission would likely just send the case to the
• 27:34
  Devin Glim: Canadian Transportation Agency.
• 27:37
  Devin Glim: So yeah,
• 27:40
  Devin Glim: it really is only one path to take,
• 27:46
  Devin Glim: and that is to the CTA.
• 27:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But how would I
• 27:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: as a layperson know about this?
• 27:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How would I know which one to go? I mean, I've had so much experience,
• 28:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I would know where to go. I think I would.
• 28:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But how would the mainstream person know where to go?
• 28:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where is it written that it is more effective to go to the CTA?
• 28:18
  Devin Glim: I don't know, Donna.
• 28:20
  Devin Glim: That's why we have a podcast like this to educate the community
• 28:26
  Devin Glim: on how to do certain things.
• 28:29
  Devin Glim: I do want to be clear that it's not just
• 28:35
  Devin Glim: more effective to go to the CTA than the commission.
• 28:40
  Devin Glim: It really is the only option.
• 28:45
  Devin Glim: Because as, at the CTA, I don't
• 28:50
  Devin Glim: know.
• 28:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So if it's the only option and I took it to the CHRC,
• 28:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: would they just then tell me to go over to the CTA?
• 29:00
  Devin Glim: Most likely.
• 29:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Aha, okay.
• 29:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right.
• 29:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 29:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The Accessible Transportation for Persons with
• 29:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Disabilities Regulations apply to large carriers,
• 29:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: generally to those that carried at least one million passengers
• 29:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: in each of the two previous years,
• 29:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and many of the aircraft rules apply only to
• 29:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: planes with
• 29:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 30 or more passenger seats.
• 29:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What protections does a blind traveller have
• 29:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: on a smaller regional or northern carrier,
• 29:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and is it a gap that the law should close?
• 30:06
  Patrick Robitaille: Donna, you do point out
• 30:09
  Patrick Robitaille: an interesting and true fact here that there can be a gap because there's this
• 30:14
  Patrick Robitaille: threshold of
• 30:18
  Patrick Robitaille: how many passengers are travelling and
• 30:22
  Patrick Robitaille: how many passengers are on the plane and that can trigger certain protections that
• 30:28
  Patrick Robitaille: might be missing on these smaller carriers.
• 30:32
  Patrick Robitaille: In light of that gap,
• 30:33
  Patrick Robitaille: I think it's important to remember that human rights laws are always still going
• 30:37
  Patrick Robitaille: to apply. Human rights laws are quasi-constitutional,
• 30:40
  Patrick Robitaille: and they are going to
• 30:43
  Patrick Robitaille: apply when somebody is providing
• 30:45
  Patrick Robitaille: that travel service. And these smaller regional carriers
• 30:50
  Patrick Robitaille: still have a duty to accommodate a blind traveller.
• 30:55
  Patrick Robitaille: The regulation at play here is simply a minimum.
• 30:59
  Patrick Robitaille: Section two of the regulation says, "For greater certainty,
• 31:03
  Patrick Robitaille: nothing in these regulations is to be construed as limiting the duty to
• 31:07
  Patrick Robitaille: accommodate under the Canadian Human Rights Act or any other Act of
• 31:12
  Patrick Robitaille: Parliament." So even where the regulation does apply,
• 31:18
  Patrick Robitaille: the human rights legislation is going to be in effect.
• 31:23
  Patrick Robitaille: And so the thresholds you mentioned do present a gap in the law,
• 31:28
  Patrick Robitaille: but human rights legislation is ultimately attempting to fill it.
• 31:33
  Patrick Robitaille: And passengers will always still receive
• 31:36
  Patrick Robitaille: an individualized analysis of their specific accommodation needs
• 31:41
  Patrick Robitaille: and the resources
• 31:44
  Patrick Robitaille: of the accommodation provider.
• 31:45
  Patrick Robitaille: Those will still be taken into consideration on both sides when assessing
• 31:50
  Patrick Robitaille: a situation like this.
• 31:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So you're saying, in essence, that the gap is closing.
• 31:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Would you go that far?
• 32:01
  Devin Glim: I wouldn't say
• 32:03
  Devin Glim: closing.
• 32:05
  Devin Glim: I think we need to look at this question through a human
• 32:11
  Devin Glim: rights lens,
• 32:13
  Devin Glim: in that no matter what the regulation
• 32:19
  Devin Glim: says, human rights law
• 32:23
  Devin Glim: still applies.
• 32:25
  Devin Glim: So any service provider or any airline
• 32:31
  Devin Glim: is still required to do an
• 32:37
  Devin Glim: individual assessment of a passenger's needs and
• 32:43
  Devin Glim: attempt to
• 32:45
  Devin Glim: accommodate that passenger up until undue hardship.
• 32:51
  Devin Glim: And so that analysis
• 32:55
  Devin Glim: will,
• 32:56
  Devin Glim: again, it may lead to a different decision depending
• 33:02
  Devin Glim: on the airline, where it is, who the passenger is,
• 33:08
  Devin Glim: what their needs are,
• 33:10
  Devin Glim: and all other
• 33:14
  Devin Glim: considerations that need to be made when looking at an accommodation.
• 33:20
  Devin Glim: So
• 33:24
  Devin Glim: on a smaller regional or local carrier,
• 33:29
  Devin Glim: there is always still the human rights laws that
• 33:35
  Devin Glim: exist.
• 33:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In November of 2025,
• 33:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you told Global News that wheelchairs
• 33:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for a lot of people is an extension of their body,
• 33:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that a policy like WestJet's
• 34:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 300-pound weight limit on power wheelchairs will
• 34:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: always exclude someone.
• 34:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How does Canadian accommodation law treat a blanket rule like
• 34:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that compared with an
• 34:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: individual assessment of each passenger's needs?
• 34:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what can a traveller do today if they're told
• 34:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: that their mobility aid cannot fly?
• 34:43
  Devin Glim: That is a good question.
• 34:45
  Devin Glim: So I think
• 34:50
  Devin Glim: I'm gonna break it down into a two-step.
• 34:53
  Devin Glim: So in terms of
• 34:56
  Devin Glim: the passenger,
• 35:00
  Devin Glim: when a passenger is looking up,
• 35:05
  Devin Glim: they should always look at the aircraft requirements
• 35:12
  Devin Glim: ahead of time
• 35:14
  Devin Glim: to kind of know what the situation is and whether
• 35:20
  Devin Glim: they can be accommodated on the aircraft or not.
• 35:27
  Devin Glim: In terms of,
• 35:30
  Devin Glim: like, a policy like that,
• 35:34
  Devin Glim: a, like a law,
• 35:37
  Devin Glim: legislation is not in contact with all other relevant
• 35:43
  Devin Glim: legislation and human rights law.
• 35:47
  Devin Glim: So
• 35:50
  Devin Glim: what we mean by this is that
• 35:57
  Devin Glim: a rule like this may have a
• 36:01
  Devin Glim: adverse impact on someone in the
• 36:06
  Devin Glim: community or a group of people,
• 36:11
  Devin Glim: such as power wheelchair users in this case.
• 36:15
  Devin Glim: And so
• 36:18
  Devin Glim: it really does come down to the passenger
• 36:25
  Devin Glim: providing as much notice as possible to the
• 36:31
  Devin Glim: airline,
• 36:37
  Devin Glim: kind of working with them to try and do as accommodation
• 36:43
  Devin Glim: possible.
• 36:44
  Devin Glim: Airlines are still required to accommodate persons with
• 36:51
  Devin Glim: disabilities, even if they have a
• 36:56
  Devin Glim: cargo reaching policy as in question.
• 37:02
  Devin Glim: And each request for an accommodation needs to be
• 37:09
  Devin Glim: assessed on
• 37:12
  Devin Glim: individual basis.
• 37:15
  Devin Glim: So again, it really does depend on the situation,
• 37:21
  Devin Glim: where they're travelling, who they're travelling with.
• 37:26
  Devin Glim: If a passenger is told that they cannot fly with
• 37:32
  Devin Glim: their mobility,
• 37:35
  Devin Glim: they…
• 37:37
  Devin Glim: I mean, in terms of Air Canada and the rules they're saying,
• 37:43
  Devin Glim: as long as the request is made 21 days in
• 37:49
  Devin Glim: advance, then they can ask for a
• 37:55
  Devin Glim: aircraft to be substituted with a different,
• 38:00
  Devin Glim: more accessible aircraft.
• 38:04
  Devin Glim: But that is only Air Canada.
• 38:09
  Devin Glim: Any other
• 38:11
  Devin Glim: airlines still owe a duty to accommodate per Canada's human rights
• 38:15
  Devin Glim: legislation.
• 38:23
  Devin Glim: Again,
• 38:24
  Devin Glim: a letter is unnecessary.
• 38:28
  Devin Glim: A letter as
• 38:30
  Devin Glim: possible should be given to the airline.
• 38:35
  Devin Glim: And if all else fails,
• 38:39
  Devin Glim: then the traveller can file a complaint with the CCRA.
• 38:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very interesting.
• 38:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Talk is starting to wind down, but I have this question for you guys.
• 38:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Your colleagues at ARCH
• 39:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: represented Timothy Rose in Air Canada v.
• 39:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Rose. And in March of 2025,
• 39:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the Federal Court of Appeal found that Air Canada had
• 39:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: not shown that it would suffer undue hardship if it had to
• 39:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: substitute
• 39:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: an accessible aircraft for a passenger whose power wheelchair
• 39:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: could not fit through the cargo door.
• 39:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: For listeners who are hearing the phrase "undue hardship" for the
• 39:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: first time,
• 39:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what does it mean and what does the Rose decision mean
• 39:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for passengers beyond power wheelchair users,
• 39:57
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: including blind traveller with a guide dog?
• 40:03
  Patrick Robitaille: So
• 40:05
  Patrick Robitaille: Donna, to explain undue hardship, and Devin, by all means,
• 40:08
  Patrick Robitaille: jump in if I'm sort of not framing this correctly.
• 40:11
  Patrick Robitaille: But
• 40:13
  Patrick Robitaille: undue hardship is defining a point where making an accommodation
• 40:20
  Patrick Robitaille: becomes too difficult, becomes too unsafe, or becomes too expensive.
• 40:27
  Patrick Robitaille: So it's essentially the point at which, in this case,
• 40:30
  Patrick Robitaille: a service provider wouldn't have to provide the accommodation because it falls
• 40:33
  Patrick Robitaille: into one of those categories.
• 40:36
  Patrick Robitaille: And in the case of Rose, that case shows that airlines have a duty to accommodate,
• 40:42
  Patrick Robitaille: even if it's inconvenient or difficult.
• 40:45
  Patrick Robitaille: Inconvenience and difficulty isn't undue hardship.
• 40:49
  Patrick Robitaille: And even if the requested accommodation goes beyond what is mandated by the
• 40:54
  Patrick Robitaille: regulations, I think that's an important one with Rose.
• 40:57
  Patrick Robitaille: Essentially Rose confirms that regulations don't give airlines an out.
• 41:05
  Patrick Robitaille: They can't regulate their way out of having a duty to accommodate.
• 41:10
  Patrick Robitaille: They still have to accommodate
• 41:12
  Patrick Robitaille: unless it reaches the point of
• 41:17
  Patrick Robitaille: burdening them with an undue hardship.
• 41:22
  Devin Glim: I also want to add that,
• 41:26
  Devin Glim: as
• 41:28
  Devin Glim: Patrick mentioned, the cost and safety and
• 41:35
  Devin Glim: the availability of resources,
• 41:39
  Devin Glim: those are very high threshold beliefs.
• 41:46
  Devin Glim: And so
• 41:48
  Devin Glim: most accommodations that may arise shouldn't
• 41:53
  Devin Glim: necessarily reach that point.
• 41:59
  Devin Glim: But yes.
• 42:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm not fond of that term, the duty to accommodate.
• 42:09
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just, for some reason, just doesn't go down very well with me.
• 42:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: If either of you had to choose a substitute term,
• 42:21
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what do you think it could be?
• 42:25
  Devin Glim: That's on the spot here.
• 42:31
  Devin Glim: I'm not sure.
• 42:33
  Devin Glim: I always thought that the duty to accommodate is
• 42:39
  Devin Glim: kind of like a duty,
• 42:41
  Devin Glim: like an obligation that a sort of provider has.
• 42:46
  Devin Glim: So I'm not sure if that would change it.
• 42:54
  Devin Glim: How about you, Pat?
• 42:56
  Patrick Robitaille: That is maybe one of the most interesting questions I've ever been asked.
• 43:00
  Patrick Robitaille: [laughs]
• 43:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I don't like the term, I really don't. Sorry.
• 43:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
• 43:04
  Patrick Robitaille: It sounds almost military-esque.
• 43:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, and it sort of sounds, maybe could be taken as being condescending as well.
• 43:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do you think?
• 43:16
  Patrick Robitaille: I like that it sounds firm. I like that it does represent to me,
• 43:22
  Patrick Robitaille: the word duty means,
• 43:25
  Patrick Robitaille: this is something that is required of you, and I like it in that sense,
• 43:29
  Patrick Robitaille: but now you got me thinking. I'll have to write you after this,
• 43:33
  Patrick Robitaille: after I've been able to chew on that question a bit.
• 43:36
  Devin Glim: How about you, Donna? What would you want it to be called?
• 43:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Sorry, say that again?
• 43:43
  Devin Glim: What would you change it to?
• 43:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Ah. What would I put in place of that?
• 43:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I should have thought of the answer before I asked the
• 43:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: question. You got me there. You got me there.
• 44:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The duty to accommodate.
• 44:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Should it be a must to accommodate?
• 44:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't know.
• 44:14
  Devin Glim: We'll have to do something on that one.
• 44:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have to think about that, eh?
• 44:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] So I'm gonna close this
• 44:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: interview with a general question to you both.
• 44:27
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I know that ARCH handles a lot of very interesting and exciting cases.
• 44:31
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, I've been part of it all. I think I've had about
• 44:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: maybe three cases in the past many years.
• 44:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We've won all of them, so I'm very pleased about that.
• 44:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What would you like to see ARCH do a bit more?
• 44:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, they do so much already, but what do you think they can do
• 44:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to really enhance their presence and their profile
• 45:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for persons with disabilities?
• 45:09
  Devin Glim: Well, I think as a veteran ARCH does so much work,
• 45:15
  Devin Glim: and a lot of it
• 45:18
  Devin Glim: they're not getting the spotlight that it deserves,
• 45:24
  Devin Glim: and they're not doing as in the mainstream
• 45:30
  Devin Glim: view as it could be.
• 45:35
  Devin Glim: But yeah,
• 45:37
  Devin Glim: I think that ARCH
• 45:40
  Devin Glim: should keep doing
• 45:43
  Devin Glim: like it's been doing and advocating for people with
• 45:49
  Devin Glim: disabilities
• 45:51
  Devin Glim: and trying to create that change that we are all seeking in regards to
• 45:57
  Devin Glim: accessibility and
• 46:00
  Devin Glim: living a meaningful life as a person with a
• 46:06
  Devin Glim: disability.
• 46:08
  Devin Glim: And yeah,
• 46:11
  Devin Glim: that is another really tough question there, Donna.
• 46:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Sorry.
• 46:19
  Devin Glim: Pat, do you have any thoughts on
• 46:26
  Devin Glim: it?
• 46:26
  Patrick Robitaille: Yeah. I mean, my
• 46:29
  Patrick Robitaille: lens on this is through the eyes of a student,
• 46:32
  Patrick Robitaille: and I would love to see ARCH continue to expand and grow its
• 46:37
  Patrick Robitaille: presence
• 46:40
  Patrick Robitaille: on the campus at Osgoode and beyond.
• 46:44
  Patrick Robitaille: I mean, it's
• 46:45
  Patrick Robitaille: a small but mighty group of folks working here that work really,
• 46:48
  Patrick Robitaille: really hard
• 46:52
  Patrick Robitaille: for an area of law they really believe in. So I would just love to see that expand.
• 46:56
  Patrick Robitaille: I would love to see more students get exposure and opportunity to get through
• 47:00
  Patrick Robitaille: the door here.
• 47:02
  Patrick Robitaille: And I think maybe through those types of expansions it could continue to provide
• 47:08
  Patrick Robitaille: better supports and more awareness for the community,
• 47:12
  Patrick Robitaille: the broader community.
• 47:14
  Patrick Robitaille: But it's an amazing experience. I mean, as a student here,
• 47:17
  Patrick Robitaille: the type of work we get to do and what we are exposed to is so important on so many
• 47:22
  Patrick Robitaille: different levels,
• 47:23
  Patrick Robitaille: and it's so different than anything you could ever absorb inside of a classroom.
• 47:27
  Patrick Robitaille: And yeah,
• 47:29
  Patrick Robitaille: I hope it continues, and I hope it's able to expand.
• 47:32
  Patrick Robitaille: Although, [laughs] I think it's safe to say that everybody here gets worked
• 47:37
  Patrick Robitaille: pretty close to capacity. [laughs]
• 47:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You mentioned the disability rights programme. Is that a new
• 47:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: programme?
• 47:52
  Devin Glim: Sorry.
• 47:54
  Devin Glim: Disability right—
• 47:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The disability rights— I think Patrick had mentioned it,
• 47:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: about the disability rights programme, law programme.
• 48:02
  Patrick Robitaille: No. Oh, just referencing the programme that I'm a part of,
• 48:05
  Patrick Robitaille: like why I was even
• 48:07
  Patrick Robitaille: given the privilege of being involved today on the podcast as a result of
• 48:12
  Patrick Robitaille: Osgoode's programme connected to ARCH through the Disability Law Intensive.
• 48:18
  Patrick Robitaille: I'm not sure how long they've been doing this together.
• 48:21
  Patrick Robitaille: It's over 10 years, 15 years the school's been collaborating with ARCH.
• 48:27
  Patrick Robitaille: And so that programme is amazing.
• 48:31
  Patrick Robitaille: A small group of students every year get to come on board for what we refer to as
• 48:36
  Patrick Robitaille: clinical legal experiences in the school,
• 48:39
  Patrick Robitaille: where in lieu of classroom learning,
• 48:43
  Patrick Robitaille: you get part of your learning in a setting like this.
• 48:46
  Patrick Robitaille: And I'll tell you,
• 48:47
  Patrick Robitaille: it's one of the most incredible opportunities of my life and I've been
• 48:50
  Patrick Robitaille: absolutely loving it.
• 48:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I never knew about this programme.
• 48:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have a law degree from the University of London, England.
• 48:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I'm going to confess, I am not gonna go to the bar.
• 49:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm too… I just love
• 49:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: doing these types of interviews and doing research with people.
• 49:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't wanna go to the bar. I don't wanna… Well, I wouldn't say waste my time,
• 49:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just don't wanna spend my time doing [laughs] going to the bar.
• 49:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But—
• 49:20
  Patrick Robitaille: Well, it's an interesting profession in education. I mean,
• 49:22
  Patrick Robitaille: the education can help you understand how you can be a better advocate for the
• 49:25
  Patrick Robitaille: things you believe in.
• 49:27
  Patrick Robitaille: There's a lot of people who get the education and don't wanna get into the
• 49:30
  Patrick Robitaille: practice, but it really sets you up
• 49:33
  Patrick Robitaille: in life to advocate, to ask the right questions, to be curious.
• 49:39
  Patrick Robitaille: And I think there's so much you can take from this education outside of
• 49:45
  Patrick Robitaille: being called to a bar.
• 49:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, I agree.
• 49:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This has been a really, really interesting interview,
• 49:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I've really appreciated
• 49:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: the opinions you've expressed with regard to travel for passengers with
• 50:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disabilities. I wanna thank you both for having come on today.
• 50:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And if you feel that at any time in the future you'd like to say more,
• 50:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: please reach out to me and let me know. I'd love to have you on again.
• 50:15
  Devin Glim: Yeah. Amazing. Thank you for having us.
• 50:20
  Devin Glim: It's always wonderful talking with you.
• 50:24
  Devin Glim: And yeah, we're always happy to collaborate on future projects.
• 50:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very, very much, Devin and Patrick.
• 50:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You have a good rest of the evening, and I'm sure we'll be talking again very soon.
• 50:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care.
• 50:40
  Devin Glim: Awesome. Thank you, Donna.
• 50:41
  Patrick Robitaille: Thank you, Donna.
• 50:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Bye-bye now.
• 50:43
  Patrick Robitaille: Take care.
• 50:44
  Devin Glim: Bye.
• 50:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye-bye.
• 50:48
  Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to Curb to Cabin Canada with your host,
• 50:53
  Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan.
• 50:55
  Podcast Commentator: Every episode we publish includes a full written transcript so that nothing said
• 51:00
  Podcast Commentator: here sits outside of anyone's reach.
• 51:04
  Podcast Commentator: You'll find it, along with the documents and decisions that we referred to today,
• 51:09
  Podcast Commentator: online at https://donnajodhan.com/3c.
• 51:15
  Podcast Commentator: If you work for an airline, airport,
• 51:17
  Podcast Commentator: or agency along this journey and you'd like to speak for your own part of it,
• 51:23
  Podcast Commentator: Donna would be happy to hear from you.
• 51:26
  Podcast Commentator: The invitation is genuine, the address is on the website,
• 51:30
  Podcast Commentator: and the questions are always sent in advance.
• 51:34
  Podcast Commentator: If this episode was useful to you,
• 51:36
  Podcast Commentator: please pass it along to someone who needs to hear it,
• 51:40
  Podcast Commentator: a fellow traveller, a colleague,
• 51:43
  Podcast Commentator: or the organization that really ought to be listening.
• 51:47
  Podcast Commentator: Wishing you safe and accessible travel across Canada and beyond.
• 51:52
  Podcast Commentator: Until next time. [outro music]