Latest / Vermont Talks / Paddy Reagan of Paper Castles

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Paddy Reagan of Paper Castles · Vermont Talks

• 0:14
  What's new, 802? I'm Becca Hammond, and you're listening to Vermont Talks. Vermont talks may include graphic or explicit content.
• 0:22
  Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:22
  Welcome to Vermont Talks. It is the 76th interview, and it's the 26th of September, and we're outside of Brio Coffee in Burlington today. And I'm here today with Patty Reagan of Paper Castles. And Paper Castles is a songwriting project, and it's fronted by Patty Reagan of Jericho and bolstered by bandmates Brennan Mangan Mangan. Am I getting that right? Mangan, Nice. And Ren Kit Ren Kitts and Emily Tompkins. How Patty organized the Waping Windows Festival in Winooski from 2011 through 2025, which I've everyone listening to this has probably heard of Waking Windows with very beloved uh mini festival. And you're currently the production manager of the recital hall and UVM Lane series, which is awesome. Did I just meet Emily? Yes, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. We should have provided her to stay.
• 1:15
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I I talked with her about it earlier, but uh she's uh yeah, she's going to the market and that'll be fair. Divide and conquer that way. And also I I totally get it.
• 1:23
  Some people don't want to be on paper.
• 1:27
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can be a little weird. Welcome, Patty. Um, thanks for talking with me. Yeah, thank you for coming all the way out to Burlington. I know it's uh this is probably the peak of uh random people being in this area week. Oh, right, yeah, totally.
• 1:39
  Everybody's here because it's uh foliage season. Yeah. Big deal in this area. Okay, paper castles. Let's talk about this. Uh Indie Rock came up. You had just straight rock listed as genres on your band camp. And you got an EP from 2009 on your band camp. So you've been doing this for a while.
• 1:59
  Yeah, yeah. That was, I think 2008 was the year that I started the project, and then we put the EP out in 2009. Yeah.
• 2:09
  So yeah, it's been 18 years. That's incredible. That I've had paper castles as a band. Um there's been different members throughout the years. Um Brennan has played in the band, I think since 2010 or 11. Um, and uh Ren since 2012, maybe 2013. And then um Emily just joined the band about four and a half years ago. So she's the our newest member, but still been in the band for a while. So yeah, a lot of bands don't last four years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Well, when I started the project, I had just come out of another band where it was sort of a more collaborative band, which was cool and I and I like the idea of that, but I had really wanted to have a project that felt as though it could sustain throughout band member changes, because I sort of foresaw that as being a thing that would happen regularly, you know, people's lives change and their interests change and that sort of stuff. So um especially when you start something young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I was 20 gosh, 24.
• 3:15
  Yeah, I was 24 when I started the band.
• 3:23
  So um yeah, and you know, stuff just changes so much, and I didn't know whether I'd actually like still be living in Burlington, all that stuff.
• 3:31
  So would I, you know, any time someone joined the band or with you know with the first iteration of the band, which was Peter Negroponti, who's the um drummer from uh Gorilla Toss, the that bandwidth. Yeah, yeah, totally. And then uh Ian Kovac, who is an original member of Gorilla Toss, but um, they were the first two members of Paper Castles with me. And we um, you know, I expressed to them early on, I was like, I think, you know, depending on regardless of what you guys do in your life, like I'm gonna keep moving forward with this band name just for continuity's sake, so I don't have to like retrain the general public as to like what you know what my project is.
• 4:07
  And I I never felt comfortable doing it under my own name, so that was kind of the the deal that I made with everybody who joined the band, essentially.
• 4:14
  Yeah, it makes sense. And and from my we live in the world of social media and just trying to get people to recognize you, like you said, retraining the public. Yeah, yeah. Because paper castles is pretty well known. It's kind of odd. Yeah. This scene is really weird, but people when you bring up, oh, I'm going to a show, who's on the bill, and someone says paper castle.
• 4:34
  Oh yeah, oh yeah, I've seen them before. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and I think something about, you know, whether I think there's something about having been just present for that long, you know, like um, and you we play generally play about once a month. So when you're in a scene for 18 years and play at least once a month, you know, that's a lot of shows to be up on bills and some a numbers game at that point, you know. It's whether or not people know about us, they've just at least seen the name out there, you know. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So now you've moved to Jericho. I forget what county Jericho's. Oh, we're in uh we're still in Chittenden County.
• 5:12
  Yeah, yeah, just about about a half hour outside of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 5:15
  Over the hill and far away. Yeah, yeah.
• 5:15
  I've been there. I've been there for twelve years. Um so but you know, like I always say Jericho Vermont when people ask, you know, where like uh like you know, the intro had Jericho Vermont. Um, but when people, you know, we when people ask from out of state, like we're we generally say we're a Burlington band because we sort of identify with the scene here.
• 5:36
  Yeah, close enough to if you're in trending county, I feel like Burlington. Yeah, that's the name people recognize also. Truly, yeah.
• 5:43
  Yeah. Have you gotten to play at the Jericho Taverns? No, I haven't. Um sometime I will, but I probably not with paper castles. Um I do I play like instrumental music as well, like um sort of along the veins of like Bill Frizzell kind of jazz adjacent sort of stuff. Yeah. So I maybe maybe in that capacity someday I'll play at the cafe and tavern out there. But what instruments are you playing for the more instrumental piece? Uh guitar.
• 6:13
  Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I still play guitar as my main instrument. Yeah.
• 6:17
  Yeah. Sometimes I'll play drums and bass and keys for things. Um, but yeah, I'm I mostly focus on guitar. Yes. And you are, we should have mentioned you are the front person. Yeah, okay.
• 6:30
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been writing all, you know, I write all of the the sort of structure of the songs. I have a lot of help with the the arranging and and individual parts of the songs by the other band members. But yeah, generally things are sort of uh, you know, songwriting can be tr funny in a group setting. Um but generally I bring the sort of guts of the piece to the band and we all flesh it out together. And I was having a conversation with someone the other day, and it it's about eight rehearsals before a song starts to really feel like it's an actual song and then maybe like eight more rehearsals before it feels like it's itself, you know. So you know, it takes us maybe half a year to kind of usher a song from its beginning parts to like its final destination, you know. Yes.
• 7:20
  And when it f when it finally clicks and just kind of feels good when you're practicing. Yeah, yeah. Such a satisfying feeling. Yeah, it's really nice. Yeah. I'm like uh I'm grateful for the you know, having collaborators for 16, 15, 14 and five years, like it's really cool to like keep keep having that, you know, we sort of we can communicate uh part of uh a big part of music I've found is just like the ability to communicate with the people that you're playing with, you know, like in a jazz setting, there's sort of like a jazz language that you use, you know, so you can sort of communicate with anyone who knows that language. But like in a in a songwriting non sort of like um non-jazz or non like the other one is like the Grateful Dead setting. Like if you know like a bunch of Grateful Dead tunes, you can sort of go and play with like any other person who knows Beautiful Dead songs. But like this is so different than that, but you know, I've developed um as a group, like we've all kind of developed a language together and and I know how to communicate with our drummer Brennan in a way, you know, he knows like tons of theory, and I can talk and I can sort of like ask him questions that are theory-based, and then Ren, our guitarist, uh, you know, we talk more about sort of like vibe or feeling, or I'll give him sort of like directions, and then similarly with Emily, like we'll sort of discuss kind of like um what the feel should be as opposed to like maybe exactly what notes, and then and then for each of those people, um, I I sort of like work with them in real time to sort of shape what they've come up with. It's it's nice. It's like a really nice way to work, you know.
• 8:59
  Yeah, that cohesive structure and just having people that are nice to be around. Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, and and I think, you know, in early days, uh my confidence level was such that maybe I I was always questioning my decisions and and so then like as a group we'd be questioning them and and over the years I've really um felt that um there's there's like a a lot of right ways a thing can sound, you know, and then there's like infinite wrong ways that it can sound. And so I've gotten good at identifying like this, this is not right. This is or like and then another idea could be like sort of right, and then like when you hear the right idea, you just like know you're like that's the right idea. Yeah. Or you like you hear something and you're like, we're s we're so close. Let's like hang on to that until we figure out how to change it so that it's at the actual right idea. Yeah. Yeah, it's really fun. It's like a it's like it's like putting a puzzle together that like doesn't exist yet. Yes. Yes. And that slow amorphosis giving it giving it the time to read. breathe and grow and like the sleep on it concept. Just let it let it be. Give it a week, give it two weeks. Sometimes we forget what the parts were like, and we um and then you know, we'll we'll have to go back and listen to something uh and see like what, you know. Uh Emily's great about like recording our rehearsals or like takes of like the new songs and be like, can we play that back? How do we play it last week? And it's like, oh yeah, we forgot about this guitar line or like this, you know, whatever drum fill or something like that. And it's really, it's a nice, yeah, it's such a great um collaborative process. Even though I'm like the songwriter, it's like making the song come to life is like a group project, you know. Yes. Yes, the recording is so handy to have that to go back to. Yeah. Uh that's such an easy thing to lose. Like, even if you remember I struggle with the rhythm. I remember where I put my fingers on the on the date. Yeah. But I cannot remember what rhythm I played, which is half the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:13
  Totally. Absolutely. Those recordings can come in handy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's like, you know, sometimes you listen to the recording and then you think about what you like intuited in that moment, and you find like a happy medium between the two too, you know. It's like a nice, yeah, it's a nice balance.
• 11:26
  Yes, highly recommend anybody who's doing songwriting. I always kind of talk about these things. You never know who's listening to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people are kids though. They're like, oh, this is. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just having any, you know, you know, I I've learned so much just from hearing artists talk about even non-musicians talk about their practices, you know, and just hearing how they structure how they approach their work and stuff. It's, you know, uh even though they're different art forms, like a visual artist can really inform like what I like how I look at songwriting or how I look at a play or something, you know what I mean? Just like it's it's all like being creative um comes from a similar place, I think, you know. Yeah, definitely. Uh I feel like visual arts and the perspective, because it's it's right in front of you. You you are literally looking at it. Yeah. But it's the same with listening to music. It's all from your perspective of how you're hearing a sort of thing. Right, yeah, where you're standing when you hear it.
• 12:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like either physically or emotionally. Yeah, yeah. So many layers to it. Ugh, I love art. Of or of course, sitting at Brian.
• 12:33
  I'm looking at a huge wall of art behind you. Just thinking about perspective. It's a really fun place.
• 12:40
  I don't know. I think I've seen this.
• 12:40
  This must be like new ish, maybe. I guess I think this was fairly new. It's really beautiful. I love the horses. I don't know. I don't know if this is for one specific business, but it's very creative. Kevin Sincata. That's great. I was seeing those as bowls. I wonder if you're right. Oh, but that is a horse. You're right. Maybe it is.
• 13:01
  You're right. Those might just be horns. I thought they were just like yours or something. Yeah, yeah, totally. Uh okay. So paper castles, your last album. Which has the best name. I'm sad as hell, and I'm not going to hide it anymore. You're not gonna fake it anymore. Oh, I'm not gonna fake it anymore. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. I wrote it down rock. Fake it anymore. 2025. So that's a little over a year old at this point. Yeah. When you okay, I always wonder about this because I feel like every band's a little different. You write an album like this. Are you playing the whole thing out ever? Or are you always breaking it out? Like start to finish sort of thing. Yeah.
• 13:35
  Well, this uh yeah, a couple times there's so with this album, there's like a there's a few elements. Is there's one song that has me playing keys as sort of like the basis of the song. So we don't play it unless we're in a situation where I'll have my keys set up too, which usually means uh like a longer set with like more time to set up in between, you know. So I there were many times, and I think probably the you know, the record release show that we did, we played all the way through, and then probably played as some of our new songs, and then I think we played um some of our old songs after that. So it was like the whole album and then like some brand new songs post that were like written post the album being made and then some new songs. And yeah, um it's uh it's a fun exercise. Although what's interesting is like the the structure of the songs on the recording aren't necessarily like what I would go for on a live show before the album, but now that the album's out, it tends to be the it tends to be that structure that will play those songs, that order that will play those songs in. Um And yeah, I like it. I s it's funny, it's out, it's been out a year, you know. When you make a record, you have to listen to it so many times.
• 14:59
  Yeah. You have to really like dissect it so many times. And even though I didn't do the the um mixing or the engineering or the mastering, um, I still had to sort of like look back and you know, after each round of mixing or something, I'd have to listen to it.
• 15:19
  And that process got really hard for me in the middle of it because I I got a little burnt out by it. So I had to take some space from it. Um, which delayed the record probably by nine months or something like that. Um, which is fine. I think it's like uh I'd rather take that approach and and give myself space before listening to the material again. Yeah, you don't want to ever get to that point where you're just writing your own artwork. Yeah, it's so easy to do that if you it's just listening to the same song too many times. Yeah, yeah, totally. So what's nice now is to have a little bit of distance from it. And um, yeah, and we still play it out. We still play there's there's songs that I feel less connected to now, so we usually leave those off. And we've learned uh, you know, since Emily's been in the band, we lears learned some of the back catalogs, so we play a bunch of that stuff. Um you know, playing around here, usually our sets are like only 30 minutes. So that's like for us, that's maybe eight to ten songs. And if we're gonna play some old stuff, like we have to sacrifice a few of the new songs, you know. So and we have like new songs that are hopefully gonna be recorded soon that like um uh you know, we like playing live because they're new and exciting for us. So it's sort of like uh yeah, we we you know the other we we played a couple weeks ago at BCA for one of their like free, it was supposed to be one of the free shows in the park, but it was a super rainy night, so it was actually a free show inside. Yep. Um and um they we have played for an hour and a half, so we played every song that we know, and that was really fun. Um yeah, it was really great. So um, but yeah, the the I'm sad as hell and I'm not gonna fake it anymore. I is uh there's a uh Patty Chaevsky movie called uh Network from the 70s, and it's about a uh do you know the movie at all? I have not heard of it. Okay, cool, yeah, yeah. So it's about a um news anchor who sort of gets fed up, and I I can't I it's been a while since I've seen it, but he sort of gets fed up with just the like cycle of news and like doesn't understand why people aren't just like standing up and like fighting back against like the powers that be, you know. And um and so he like call his sort of like call to arms in in his uh in his newscast, which is sort of um uh controversial, but because it's so crazy, it gets uh viewers, and it's uh but so his producer like keeps him on the air while he goes on these rants and his sort of his call to arms is to have people just go out their windows and and scream into the into the night air, I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore. And um I think I've seen clips of the stuff. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, they're they're out there for sure. And so, and uh I think he actually ends up like he maybe he doesn't die on screen, but he he ends up like passing out, and it seems like maybe he's dead or something. I don't know, I can't remember how it ends.
• 18:30
  It's been a while. But um, but to me, you know, like the the sort of like the emotion of anger is um is unprocessed sadness, you know, to in my in my mind and and in the like therapeutic work that I've done in uh in and sort of trying to figure out how to be a healthy uh emotional adult. And um so to me, it was sort of like this way of saying like what we should be doing is like screaming out of our windows, I'm sad as hell and I'm not gonna fake it anymore. Cause really like processing grief and sadness is um is the way to sort of take yourself out of like an anger state, you know. So um that's you know, there's not much lyrically within the album that addresses that, but that is that is why I felt like it was a um a meaningful title for this album. You know, I just it's sometimes the title has to do with the album itself. Sometimes it's just like, hey, I have an opportunity to like make a statement that sort of like sits on top of this pile of work that I've done. And that that's kind of where I um came up with the name or decided to put the name out there.
• 19:45
  Yeah, it's a fun album. I listened to that one this morning. Cool, yeah. And I like it. Yes, it's it's got a kind of a bounce to it. It's not that's it. I was like, is it gonna be a sad album? Yeah, yeah. And it's not, it's really not a sad album. It's not no. Although it's funny, like my parents, the early paper castle stuff is kind of downry, but uh both my parents were like, everything okay. It's like, yeah, this is how I like process my stuff, you know. So Right, right. And it's it's really interesting when you keep the name for so long because it's kind of evolved with you as you grow and you know, we all grow up. I feel like it's we live in a weird society where we call like 18 an adult, but for me, I think of that as like the start. Yeah, oh, truly. Like you're just a baby and you grow up through your 20s, and like there's this weird point, I feel like a lot of us hit where we're all like, whoa, I don't care about all the stuff I care about. I don't think anymore. I feel like an adult. Yeah, it's an interesting shift throughout your adulthood. Yeah, and it keeps changing, you know. It's like, you know, when the things I cared about when I was 20, and and you know, and the things I cared about when I started this band are different than the things I care about now. And and a lot of that has to do with just sort of my life shifting, you know? Yep. Yeah. Yep.
• 20:57
  And then and you'll have this like auditory record of that. Yeah, totally. And it's funny you say record, because I remember having a conversation with someone about the like being too nitpicky about like the the um the quality of a record or the like whatever, you know, like uh is this, you know, is this like representing me the way I wanted to?
• 21:19
  And I can't remember who I taught who I was talking to, but they were like, I come back to the idea that it's just a record. It's just like a a brief, it's like a photograph. And it's like you sometimes look weird in photographs, and sometimes you look off, but it's like still you, but it's also all it is is just a snapshot of you, you know. And so like it's nice to have that snapshot um as uh you know, as I go forward. And and each snapshot feels a little bit more like me, and I'm I a little bit more self-assured, you know, as I go back and listen to this stuff. It's all like, oh, this this does feel like, you know, something I made, you know.
• 22:00
  Right. Right. Uh yes, I think at least for me, I've spent a lot of time. When I was growing up, I look back two or three hours and go, uh, what the heck was I thinking two, three years ago. I think when I finally hit that point where your brain stopped changing, I stopped doing that. I kind of gave myself some humility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Give yourself, give your earlier self a break. Yeah. Yeah, you were just a kid. You're just trying to figure out yeah. Even, you know, I even think about like my, you know, 35-year-old self. Like, I I think like back to, you know, whatever that was seven years ago, and just think like, yeah, some of those, some of those wants and desires or decisions, like I don't I wouldn't make again today, but like that's why I am who I am, you know.
• 22:42
  Like I made those decisions and now I'm like moved on to the next thing. Yep.
• 22:47
  Yeah. Yeah. It's a we never stop growing up. Yeah. I still believe I believe that wholeheartedly.
• 22:56
  Because you meet people, it doesn't matter how old they are. They're just having they're having a bad day and they're a kid figuring it out. Yeah, yeah, totally. It doesn't matter what your job title is either. We're all just still figuring it out every day.
• 23:07
  So I would agree with that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Great album. Is there I always want to ask six million questions and I have to hold it back. Yeah, totally. Because waking windows, I want to talk about this.
• 23:20
  Sure, sure. Because you did so much work to organize this because waking windows is not one location. Right. It was multiple locations. It was all over when you ski. How did you come up with this idea? And oh my goodness, how how stressful was this? Yeah, yeah, totally. It was uh I'll start with the stressful. It was very stressful very often. And um, yeah, it was a really I'm like grateful that we did it. And if I ever do something similar to it again, I'm gonna hopefully do it quite differently. But basically, um, you know, in like 2009, 2010 in the early days of paper castles, I was really like, I was like, I want to play a festival, you know, like I and then um my friend Nick Mavedonis, who is now the general manager of higher ground, he um he and I were doing a thing like uh we had a blog called Angioplasty Media, and we were putting on shows, like we had friends from out of town who would come in and we put on shows and people would sort of hit us up to see if we would help promote shows and so we um actually Peter from the original uh version of Paper Castles uh and the gorilla and we started Gorilla Toss, he put on a festival called Other Music Fest because he was frustrated with the jazz festival, not being able to like get gigs there. So we put on another festival during Jazz Fest and called it Other Music Fest. And um he it was really cool and Angioplasty Media helped like put it together. And and our friend Brian, who's DJ Disco Phantom also sort of helped us coordinate a night. And it was really fun. And then the year came around and I was like I want to do that again. Like I want to, you know, and so I talked to Peter. He had moved to Boston since then. He was still, I think we were still playing in paper castles together at that point, but maybe not.
• 25:24
  And I was like, hey, do you want to do it again? And he said like, nah, I'm just like moved on to other stuff. And I was like, would you be okay if we like sort of co-opted the idea and and he was like, yeah, totally run with it. And so we um put on the festival throughout well, I'll say there was another festival through like uh that happened in Peterborough, New Hampshire called um The Thing in the Spring. And they they were like Peterborough is a really small town in New Hampshire. And they were putting on this festival that was very that like was kind of the prototype for um Waking Windows, like the later versions of Waking Windows, but they were doing similar things where it was like multiple venues in this little small town, lots of shows happening at the same time. And yeah, we just were inspired by that and uh moved forward with the first Waking Windows. I at the time I was booking the monkey house. So I was the person who was like booking all the bands, doing sound a lot. And I I was like I identified that during the week of Jazz Fest we had like these like three really cool shows and I was like, let's try and build out the entire week of cool shows. So it was actually like it ended up being like 12 nights in a row at the monkey house and it was like overwhelming. You know, like 12 nights in a row to be at a place is like too many, you know, I think that I think I didn't go to one of the shows which was cool. It was like nice to have a night off. But um yeah and then I uh the next year as we were sort of like thinking about what to do, we decided to move it away from Jazz Fest because it was sort of a conflict like why would you put on a festival when there's another festival in town in a small town like this. And so we um decided to try and just do it over one weekend. So we did I think we did three or four days that first year and there were a bunch of vacant spots it still in Winooski. I don't know um oh yeah if you remember yeah yeah totally just like um the spots across the street from the monkey house were all vacant and um we you know we were able to make use of them the the landlords of that space were open to us making use of them and it was really um each year basically inspired the next year you know so it was sort of like um we figured out kind of like what our limits were and how we could sort of push past them and um you know it grew from like a budget of like maybe four thousand dollars the first year into like 2022 I think our budget was like up over 200,000. So it was like you know and and that doesn't mean we made any money necessarily no it does not. But it means that that much money came in and went out without us losing money which is like was a really great um and you know we got to pay people to do work for us which was great. We also had volunteers but we were able to like sustain the project and that was really cool. But you you asked how stressful it was and um you know when you work with people that you love it's really hard to hold each other to account and so a lot of the time we would we would um yeah just make decisions that were probably like kinder to our co-presenters with it that ultimately sort of were to the detriment of the actual organization and the uh festival itself and so and so after like a few years of that um we decided that um we wanted to sort of shrink it down and then after we sort of shrunk it down for two years we decided that that was gonna be uh enough for us and it was you know like uh two of our members are husband and wife Brian and Allie they had a kid um and and then Nick and his wife had a kid a year and a half ago so it was just sort of like felt like the right timing for us to sort of like sunset the whole project. And the amount of stress that's it it's really hard to one event organization at all.
• 29:34
  Organizing a single event one one show. Yeah four bands. Yeah yeah yeah it's a lot of work just one and that's like when you already have a location that's fixed and you're set. Yeah yeah you start mixing in more bands more locations it just so it's a lot of communication. And it compounds and it's like you know it has impacts on my like personal life and you know so there's um yeah there's a lot to um there was a lot to be grateful for from that time and there's a lot to be thankful is past. And uh yeah I, you know I I I still love putting on shows. I do it less often now. Um, but I you know, I really appreciate that period of my life. And I'm I'm like, it's helped me grow as a not only musician because I got to see so much music, you know, and listen to so much music. We'd have like 400 submissions, and like, you know, our our goal was to like listen to everybody who submitted. And like even if it was just for a minute of one of their songs, just to like make sure that we were doing our due diligence to like honor everyone's time for putting it in. And it was like it was exhausting, you know. Yeah. But I also heard so so many bands and realized like how much is out there and how much good stuff is out there, and how much stuff that's like not for me that's out there, you know. But like um that's amazing. 400 submissions in Windowsy Vermont. Yeah, well, no, it was you know, it was people from like all over the Northeast. At a certain point, we were getting people, yeah, from kind of everywhere. You know, there'd be bands from like Ohio reaching out, you know, especially if they were already on tour, you know. Oh, what a what a thing that's people look back at Waking Windows with so much love too. I know. Oh, that's so nice to hear. Yeah, oh yeah, all the bands talk about it and just people in the music scene talk about it. So it's amazing how far reaching those events are because for obviously for you personally, a huge, huge amount of time, huge amount of effort. But then all of the people who just even just walking by and had that what it what's going on moment. Yeah, it's especially to transform a small city like Winooski was so cool and you know, it felt really nice to just be like this, you know, it it um is it is an example of how a space can be like activated. And I know like activation is feels like a little bit of corporate speak for like, you know, like um making money. But you know, when you when you change a space that is typically, you know, just um passive space into an active space, it's really great and it makes it sort of like it it sort of stirs the imagination of like what's possible, you know. And I I think if if I if the if Waking Windows has like any legacy, I hope that that that's it, you know, that like you can turn something empty and something passive into something full and acted, you know. Yeah. Oh, no's doing so great now too. It's kind of fun to drive through there. It looks so nice, they've done so much work.
• 32:43
  Yeah, I we live in we live in odd times as musicians. There's so much music that has been shut down across the whole state. Yeah, totally. Well, and especially especially now with the the sort of closing of the radio being, the um the monkey house is really like kind of the one spot that is like a bar venue, you know. Like Oddfellows is so great as a sort of uh venue space to use, but like this like sort of you like on a street, you know. We just played a show in Portland, and I I just was reminded how Portland, Maine, I was reminded how important it is to have like venues in the public eye. You know, I tell us is like it exists, but it's sort of like tucked away. You kind of have to know about it, you know. And so um having a venue like in the public eye, and and sure, there's spaces like Red Square, but that's like a sort of particular type of venue, you know. And like even with, you know, with the closing down of Nectars, like that's another one where it's just sort of like you it changes the experience of a city when you don't have that being present in people's experience of the city, you know, like uh uh whether it's you know, people who live there or people who are visiting, but like if you don't, you know, if you lived in the old North End and like to walk home at night, you had to go by the radio bean, and it was like present and making music, and you know, so that's different. And I I'm I'm really happy that the Monkey House is still sort of like carrying that torch in um in Winooski and it and I think uh, you know, Lil' is putting on so much music now. Yeah, great, yeah.
• 34:25
  Yeah, the stage they put in at Lil's wild. Our band played in January and they did not have the stage. Oh, yeah.
• 34:30
  And going in because I went to the Goodnight Nobody release like a week ago. Oh, cool. It feels great in there.
• 34:38
  That's awesome. Yeah, I think they invested in some uh different sound equipment too. Like it sounded very solid in there. Yeah, it felt like a it felt just as good as Monkey House obviously in many ways. Yeah, that's awesome. With couches. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:50
  Monkey has those couches. Monkey House used to have couches, like back in the day when I started there, before the stage was in the back and it was in the front. Actually, even before there was a stage and people would just like set up in the front because the speakers were there, um, there were just like a bunch of couches. It was a very like loungy zone. Really? It was really nice. Yeah, before my time. I don't think I've ever seen the bands up front. Yeah, Oh yeah, that was oh gosh.
• 35:15
  That was a while ago that it moved to the back, which is great. It was a great move. But yeah, even before there was a stage in the front, there was no stage in the front. It was just on the ground.
• 35:22
  And I lived in Winooski. That must have been 200 five and six, I think, maybe six and seven. It was before, yeah, before paper castles. Nice. Yeah.
• 35:33
  Yeah, it was cool. It was the during still during the reconstruction of Winiski. Yeah. So everything was like a little uh after higher ground moved out of there, you know, that was like a hit because the monkey house used to just really not just, but like it it got most of its business from people going there to have some drinks before the shows at higher ground. Yeah. And they'd go to higher ground, and then after the show let out at higher ground, they would like people would go back to the monkey house. So like they had this funny like it'd be busy from like 6 30 to 8, and then it would be busy from like 11 to 2 a.m. or something. Yeah. Right. Yeah, so funny. Oh, it's changed so it's so weird to think about before the circle became what the circle is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's just a big old parking lot over there. It's funny. Right. Oh, it was so congested. And there's so many houses that have since all gone.
• 36:28
  Yeah. They're all huge buildings now.
• 36:28
  Yeah. Yeah. Um, what a great thing that you did, though. Like, thank you.
• 36:34
  Thank you on behalf of all of the artists and people who've, you know, were impacted by those events. Thanks so much for saying that. Yeah, no, it's it's a wonderful thing. And I feel like people would love to pick your brain. I don't want to make the whole interview about it, but just like about making these events because so many people want to support the music scene, want to want to do these things. It's so hard right now. As we say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:59
  You're being going out. This is so hard. And nectar's is it this is really hard for us, and people want to do something. Yep, yeah. We're actively trying to think what we can do to help to fix this. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, yes, what I'll say, I'm like happy to answer any questions about it, like from the, you know, from financial or production-wise or organizationally, you know, I'm not perfect on any of those fronts. But um what I'll say is I'll happy to answer any of those questions from you right now, but also like if anybody listening has any interest in like talking with me about it, and I can be a set of ears or set of eyes on plans and that sort of stuff, I would I would be more than happy to do that. I I love talking about music. I love talking about the business of music, even if I don't agree with like the way that sort of it's structured right now, you know. Like, you know, we think about the music industry, and you think like music, you know, folk music and and music that people would play for each other in their, you know, as an entertainment forum in their living rooms is like is one thing, and then there's sort of like community event building of another thing, and then and then you know, there's sort of like the art side of it where it was sort of uh, you know, pre like 1900s where you know, there were people who invested it, rich people who invested in music.
• 38:21
  And in my but they invested in just like certain composers and certain composers got famous stuff that, but you know, when you get it, when you start getting into like prohibition and like post-prohibition and the way that, you know, um art, specifically music as art, um is a vehicle for um alcohol sales. Yeah, you know, and then and then you like you kind of follow that up through, you know, maybe I don't know what it was like in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, like the music industry was kind of for as like lauded as like classic as we like think about it, it's like it was pretty gross back then too, you know. It was like racist and sexist and abusive. And yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Like there's all of this stuff that's like sort of like a dangerous thing to think is like the way it should be, you know, or like you know, when you look into your past and and be like, oh, I wish it was the way it was. It was like, well, it was pretty like messed up. Yeah. A lot of the time.
• 39:17
  Nostalgia gives you rose-colored glasses. Fully. Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 39:22
  Even in your own life. Yeah, yeah, totally. And then, you know, so so the way that I think about like our music scene, and and like places like Oddfellows are so special and like um unique to a system, whereas, you know, like with the radio being uh and the monkey house, like they're reliant on alcohol sales. And you know, the monkey house now is pizza, which is great, but like, you know, it's not like markup on pizza is different than markup on alcohol. Like you really are, and and so with the insurance policies that wreaked havoc on all of the venues that we've had, you know, the um is really um, you know, it's in my mind, it's like how is there a way? Is there any way that you can divorce art from like consumption? You know what I mean? And like and still support it financially because we live in a capitalist world. Like how can we Yeah, the alcohol thing is the driver's. It's really hard. Yeah, yeah. And even the festival. I think I think about like the festival, you know, our biggest, our most successful year. This is interesting. It's 2022. I think it was our most successful year. We had our most amount of sponsorship, and a big part of that was alcohol sponsorship, not just beer, but like cider. I think we had a wine sponsorship and two liquor sponsors. Yeah. And so it's like, and so to me, that is hard. I mean, I I consume alcohol sometimes. I'm not, you know, um, I know that there's people who can't consume alcohol. And like that is like part of their world.
• 41:02
  And a lot of people in the music scene specifically struggle with this.
• 41:06
  Yeah, yeah. It's so hard to be a musician and play gigs and be around it. And not be like totally inundated with alcohol and it actually ends music careers. Yeah, it's just so. is so sad. Yeah. And I think like, yeah, it's like so um, but what was in 2022, we also had a sponsorship from um what's the um what's the uh canned water company. Liquid. Oh, yes, yes. So we had a sponsorship from Liquid Death.
• 41:32
  They didn't give us any money, but they gave us like 10,000 cans of liquid death. Yeah. Maybe it was less than that. It's it's probably the tale's probably grown in the telling, but like at this point, I always save 10,000 cans. And so we gave them away for free. They said we could sell them, but we gave them away for free. And what I noticed was like the alcohol sales were like no one was complaining about how much alcohol was being sold. They weren't like, oh, people are only drinking water. But like because there was a balance between drinking water, getting like these free waters and having like a can in your hand to drink and having the alcohol sales also like people were less intoxicated. Yeah. Like it was much more like a gentle sort of like settling after the festival. Like when people were leaving, it wasn't like there weren't, yeah. I don't know, it just felt more measured and like sort of like uh the the feeling of holding something in your hand like that. It's so the little teeny tiny water cups that they give you at venues, not the same feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like having a can of something. So anyway, this is just to say that I would love to discover some sort of form of venue that supported not only the employees but the bands, and tickets weren't cost prohibitive to the general public to go and see. So I don't I don't know what that looks like. I don't know if you know, maybe the SIBA space um could sort of achieve that at some point or yeah, they're they seem to be ramping up. I need I don't know enough about SIBA. I know they've completely restructured everything. Totally. I mean, you know, uh interview-wise, it could be a cool um thing for you to chat with either Christy or maybe Luke, who's been doing their production there.
• 43:20
  Okay, yeah. Yeah, they're um uh it's a great organization, it's a great space, and I think like, you know, they they did such a great job with Arthop.
• 43:29
  And I think there's like there's a lot to be um, yeah, there's a lot to of potential in that space and organization. And I think, you know, but there's other there's potential elsewhere too. I think there's a lot of like um there's a lot of passive things that could become active, you know.
• 43:52
  Yes, yeah, yes. Yeah, without without the undue emotional burden that often faces people who organize stuff. And and that balance is really hard. And I think um, yeah, I hope to be like part of that future too. You know, I hope to, I hope to sort of like continue my role within the structure of this city and this state that like helps helps um us grow in a uh uh a sustainable way. Yeah, I I think it's feasible as well. Like there's gotta be a way to make this work because everyone loves art and music in Burlington. We all want to support each other too, and like we do go out and spend money. Yeah. So how can we make it sustainable is the hardest thing?
• 44:41
  It's the alcohol sales that really kill it because you could have venues like the odd fellows. Yeah, I fell this is a weird one because it's a uh fellowship. It's not a business.
• 44:51
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh I'm part of it.
• 44:51
  And we're talking about making it a nonprofit. We're working towards that. But even then, it's never gonna be uh run like a business. It's never gonna be the same thing as radio beat.
• 45:05
  Yep, yeah, yeah. Where you walk in and you can get food, or you know, they had food for a while. They did have food for a while, yeah. That was uh that was a loss when stopped doing food for sure.
• 45:12
  Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. But that's a whole other ball of wax. Yes, that's a huge ball of wax. I I have dreams. My me and my friends all talk about this stuff. And I really have big dreams of a place that late night, late night has coffee. Yeah. Supports the people who don't want to drink at the same time. If you want a, you know, canned beverage, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh and yeah, just making that sort of a space that's less less bar specific. Yeah, and more open.
• 45:45
  More gathering. Right. More of a gathering space. Exactly. Yeah, I think that's that's val there's value to it for sure. There's a there, you know, there's um there's a financial value to it as well. You know, I think that people um would would support something like that. It's just it's like hard to get stuff off the ground.
• 46:06
  It's hard to like, you know, um uh real estate in this city is crazy and and uh it's like uh and get real estate near the people. That was that's kind of the thing with the monkey house and radio being. Yeah, yeah, totally that the storefront on the street that people actually are walking. Totally, yep, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge.
• 46:29
  Yes. But you know, it's good to keep having the conversations. It's good to keep like um your eyes peeled and talking and meeting people who are similarly minded as you and Yeah, and just keep trying. I think that's uh it's easier to start lighting about stuff that just not do anything. Yeah, but uh you listener, whoever, whoever has the feeling of, oh, we need to do something. You can go out and make your own festival. That's I think there's a lot of lack of empowerment in these things because uh it you don't know where to start. You don't know where to stir, you don't feel like you have any money. Well, sometimes you actually don't need any money to start. And sometimes no one knows where to start, and you just dive into it, mm-hmm.
• 47:12
  Yeah, totally. Except it's not gonna be perfect. Yeah, yeah. Cause there's no playbook to any of this, really. No one wrote a like four dummies, how to save the music scene of Vermont. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you start you just start something, and then all of a sudden you're 76 episodes into a podcast, or you're like 15 years into a festival, or you're 18 years into a band, and like you just it's like starting is the hardest part so often, you know, and I think just getting up and running is like the most important element. Yeah. Yes, and you know, and like and asking for help, you know, it's really hard to ask for help. Like, you know. Uh it's really funny to me how many people are extremely scared to call up a business or or reach out to people. There's a lot of uh, I guess you call it intimidation factor. Yeah.
• 48:04
  Especially with people in uh bands, people who are cool. You know, you're cool. You ran this festival, you ran Waking Windows. Like that makes you cool. And that makes you someone people are like, I think, I think that's Patty. Is that him? I think he ran Wiki Windows, but they're scared to talk to you. Yeah, no, I if if if if anything can be achieved by this podcast is the like demystification of like going up and asking someone like me or someone who's, you know, runs an event or someone like Zach from the Burlington Electric Department who put on the um uh I forget the name of their festival. Um gosh, I should know it. Um it's just escaping my brain right now. But anyway, same thing. You know, uh I think uh like just being like, hey, how did that go? Where did you get started? Like who was interested in continuing to do stuff like that? Just like little questions that can sort of shine a light on the sort of darker corners of like how a thing gets started is really uh is really important. Yeah, totally.
• 49:11
  Yeah. Yes. Love it. Yeah. Love it very much. I have very much enjoyed talking to you. I didn't mark down when we started, but I is there anything would you have any shows coming up? Gosh, you know what? I don't. I don't have anything coming up. So I right now I'm working on I'm trying to practice my guitar a lot. I've been like really this like instrumental stuff has made me shine the light. It's talking about shining light on the dark corners.
• 49:41
  Like it's really shined a light on some of my on the things that like are just creaky little spots in my guitar playing. And I'm my goal in the next few years, and it has been this for a couple of years is I really want to become a better improviser. Um, and so that is that is like the white whale. Yeah, yeah, totally. Truly. I've I've been working so hard, and it's just like I don't know, I think a lot of it's confidence, but a lot of it's technique and there's a lot to be worked on. So anyway, my like sort of where I'm at right now is I'm I'm working on that. I'm um I'm mixing a record for a friend of mine named Addy Herbert. Uh it's a really beautiful record, and I'm like, I I think I'll do it justice. So I'm working hard on that. And then I'm working on um uh I'm I'm trying to do some more like uh composition and um and uh I have a a dream of playing a show, a paper castle show with some horns. So I um I want to do some arranging of some horns. So like those are kind of I I'm in like this, I'm in this sort of phase of you know, we'll play shows like as they come up for sure, and I'll have some uh this instrumental project I call um I don't want to have to train other people on a new band name like I was saying earlier, but I also don't want people to assume that I'm playing solo, like sing songy stuff. So I call it Patty Regan's Are You Now, which I've always been sort of like enamored with this like uh CIA and interrogative, like are you now or have you ever been? Blah, blah, blah. You know, but I always like it as just sort of its own sentence, like are you now or have you ever been?
• 51:26
  You know, like that's kind of like a sort of um existential question. Yes, yeah. It's a good one. So, and but that's a bit long to put on posters and ask people to like do stuff. So I just um shortened it to Patty Regan's Are You Now. Um, so people can look out for that if they want to hear me play like Beatles covers just in an instrumental style. Thanks. Um yeah, so I'm just trying to um grow my music practice uh right now. So no, no like shows to look out for, but um, you know, we like I said, we end up playing about once a month. And um yeah, that's it.
• 52:06
  That's that's it for me right now.
• 52:06
  Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. And you have papercastles.bandcamp.com, which is impressive these days to actually have your your real band name. Oh, yeah. Without 802 or VT or something.
• 52:20
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yep.
• 52:20
  Uh yes. And uh I'm gonna have your link tree, which is the PPR C S T L S. No uh no bells. Yeah, yeah, it's paper castles with no vowels. That's kind of the simplest way to Yeah, your link tree.
• 52:36
  And I will have all of this linked up as well as your your last album. We'll probably embed that right on the show notes page, which is gonna be uh Vermont Talks.com forward slash 76.
• 52:43
  Crazy to me. Uh so cool. Good job. Thank you. This has been really fun. Uh I want to pick your brain at other times. Oh, yeah, totally. About other music ideas and uh just the idea. So cool that you booked at Monkey House. I didn't realize you you did that before you did waking like that. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. And then I and then I booked at Arts Riot for about six years, sort of in the middle of it all.
• 53:08
  Nice. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah. Oh, you were you are in the now. Awesome.
• 53:11
  Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm happy to chat whenever. Cool. On or off mic.
• 53:16
  Perfect. Thank you so much. And uh don't be don't be scared to reach out to Patty and be thank you all for listening today, and have a great one.
• 53:27
  Thanks so much for listening to the end of the show. Subscribe to Vermont Talks on your favorite podcasting platform. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all over the web. Contact Becca at Vermonttalks.com if you'd like to be interviewed or if you know someone who should be. Thanks so much to Jason Baker for creating the show music. The views and opinions expressed by the guests are those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Vermont Talks. Any content or statements provided by our guests or of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, anyone or anything. And