Latest / The Layback Podcast / Denton Sagerman, Indiana University Assistant Coach (Ep. 98)

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Denton Sagerman, Indiana University Assistant Coach (Ep. 98) · The Layback Podcast

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Hey everyone, welcome back to the Lay Back podcast.
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Joining us today is Denton Sagerman, assistant coach at
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Indiana University. He is part of quite a dynamic
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system there and now assistant with a little bit of turnover,
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but Indiana benefits tremendously from the two
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pitching coach model. Dustin Glant has moved on to the
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Washington Nationals in an assistant pitching coach role
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with the big league club, and Denton is now the mainstay on
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the staff. He is routinely taking, I guess,
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kind of the analytical, mechanical and development side
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of things, but I'll let him get into that a little bit more as
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well as let him introduce his new counterpart in red and
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white. So Denton, thanks a ton for
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joining us during this holiday season.
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Looking forward to the conversation today.
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And how the heck are we? Yeah, absolutely.
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Adam, thanks a lot. I really appreciate it.
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Obviously been a long adapter of of Flex Pro Grip and really
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appreciate all the guidance kind of you and Darrell have both
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provided the program. So been huge mainstays.
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Love the podcast, love everything you guys do to kind
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of push the game forward. So really appreciate that.
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Happy to happy to hop on with you today for sure.
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Thanks a ton man. And straight away from here, I'd
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love if you could just kind of give the elevator pitch bio at
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this point. Yeah, kind of a unique path.
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I would say we all kind of have a unique path nowadays.
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End of the game. So grew up originally from
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Cleveland, OH and then kind of made my way down the University
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of Dayton for my playing career. Didn't really know what I was
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going to do kind of study wise. Kind of got to campus and was
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like, you know what, I'm I'm here to play baseball.
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Let let's see what else we can kind of do.
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I mean, got into engineering. I always like the math and and
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the science side of it, just the problem solving side.
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So I thought that would be a really good fit for me.
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So got into that, got into aerospace engineering.
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Obviously Dayton's a big aerospace kind of niche in Ohio
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and really got into that. Always was fascinated by
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airplanes and, and stuff like that.
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But that was really, really cool.
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So got into that, got my undergrad in aerospace
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engineering while I was playing, got done with playing.
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I was like, you know what, I don't know what I'm going to do
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from here. I don't know if I really want to
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grow up yet. So I, I need to kind of find the
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next steps of, of what I can do here.
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Got an offer to get my grad school paid for and, and a
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master's in aerospace engineering.
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So I was able to do some, some aerospace engineering research
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at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, which is in Dayton, kind
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of on the computational side, kind of kind of my specialty.
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So was able to do that had a great, great time at Wright Pat
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Air Force Base and, and you know, that took me two years in
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and it was like, you know what, I like this stuff, I really
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enjoy it. It's really cool, but I would, I
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like to be on the field again, would be really, really cool if
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I could apply these problem solving skills to baseball.
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That would kind of be the best of both worlds.
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So being young and inexperienced, didn't really
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know what that meant for me. So thought I needed another
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master's degree. So got us a master's in sports
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and athletic administration through Gonzaga, an online
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program. Got that and I needed an
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internship and, and was like, you know what, I, I played at
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Dayton, but there's another school in Dayton called Wright
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State and I'm going to e-mail their coach and kind of see if
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they need any help kind of on the analytics side, pitching
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development side, anything that I can help out with.
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And he got back to me right away and was like, hey, can you, can
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you meet on Monday, send him an e-mail on Sunday.
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Went in kind of met with him and said, yeah, like you're, you're
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in and we can definitely use your help.
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We want to take advantage of, of anything you can kind of help
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push the program forward and spend 6 months there with, with,
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with our head coach, Jeff Mercer got done with that.
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Went into the private side working with physical therapy
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facility Orion Sports Medicine in Ohio, which they do a great
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job on like the the sports performance physical therapy
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side on by Doctor Phil analogy, who's one of my good mentors and
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friends was kind of running their new facility, doing their
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throwing training on a lot of that stuff for about 3 months
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and then Jeff got the job here at IU and I get a call from him
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one day I'm like, oh, that's kind of interesting.
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You know it's been a couple months and he was like, hey, you
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know I don't think heard I got the head coaching job at IU.
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Would would you be interested in joining the staff?
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And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Like I started driving over, I
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started driving over to Bloomington before I even talked
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to my wife. I was like, you know, I'll call
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her on the way and make sure that's good.
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But I think I think we're going to try to make this work so
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crazy. Look back seven years later and
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it's like, you know, you're having a blast.
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You feel like you get to do your hobby for your for your job
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every day. I don't, I don't feel like it's
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a job and I love to work and kind of solve problems in the
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game and in baseball. So it's it's been kind of a
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unique path to get there. But I do think like the problem
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solving skills I learned from engineering is what drives me on
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the baseball side and I think I'm able to kind of apply those
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in a in a unique way for our players in our program.
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Do you still spend any of your time looking at airplanes or is
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it just strictly baseball throwers at this point?
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I do, I do really still enjoy like the aerospace side, right?
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Pat has a great, like the National Air Force Museum is in
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Dayton. I still make my way over there
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when I'm driving home and all that.
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I do still look at that stuff anytime a movie or something
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comes out about space or, or or anything like that, I'm after
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the first one to watch that stuff.
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But it's, it's interesting. It's like all about solving
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problems. Like do you have a problem?
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Are you able to apply like a test retest or an objective
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feedback model to that to be able to solve a problem?
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And a lot of those lessons I learned kind of on the
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engineering side for sure. Well, thinking of your undergrad
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in even your first masters, what point in your career did you
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realize some of this aerospace engineering stuff could actually
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apply to ball flight? I think when I was training,
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it's kind of started from when I was training, like when I was
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playing again like 2011 and 25th, 2015, it was like the
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start of Track Man and, and, and Hawkeye and those things were
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starting. Edrotronic Canvas were starting
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to come into the game. I, I didn't kind of reap the
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benefits of those during my playing career very much.
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A lot of things back then were like more subjective.
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It was like, I, I think you should kind of move like this or
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I think your pitches should kind of move like this or like it was
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much more of a subjective nature.
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And it was just so different from what my engineering
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background was, where it was like everything was objective
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based. It was like there, there's a way
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to solve the problem based on, on data and video and feedback.
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So I, I kind of think that's where it came from initially was
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on the training side of like, I kind of gravitated towards
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throwing weighted balls and throwing plyo balls and that
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side and was like, hey, I think there's a way to like quantify,
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is this the right way to train or is this a better way to
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train? Like I know my arm feels better
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when I do that. I know I throw harder when I
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train like that, but I kind of wanted to learn like, why is
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that? So I think that was kind of the
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impetus of that for sure. And then in terms of ball
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flight, when I was sitting in the wind tunnel one day was
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like, hey, like I'm sitting in this flight simulator.
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It's like this is pretty similar to how a pitcher throwing the
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ball, how it interacts with I'm, I'm pretty sure I can apply some
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things to this. I remember going up to my, my
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advisor kind of towards the end was like, hey, what do you think
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about doing like a, a project on baseball in the kind of the
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fluid dynamics of that? And he was like, yeah, I know.
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I think we're going to stay more towards, towards the, the
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aerospace kind of applications for you.
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And I'm like, no, that makes sense.
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But you know, I think I'm definitely going to research
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this a little bit. So that was kind of the impetus.
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Yeah. No, it was definitely always
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there. Kind of once I kind of was able
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to tie the two together. So on your baseball performance
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trainer coach, but have you person Mount Rushmore?
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How high does Barton Smith rank? Pretty high.
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I mean, I think definitely an innovator.
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I've never had the pleasure to talk to him.
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I would like to at some point, you know, I've watched a lot of
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his stuff and I think it's just, it's really, it's really
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interesting when you take like that side of like how he's able
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to work kind of on the experimental side into that.
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I definitely give him a lot of credit for kind of pushing the
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idea of team shift awake and all that stuff to the forefront and,
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and just understanding like putting those things into
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practice, like actually testing them.
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Like, like not being the first guy through the walls always
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like it's the bloodiest, right? A little bit like you kind of
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learn like bumps and bruises kind of throughout the way.
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But yeah, definitely like a huge innovator in the space for no
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doubt and, and has led me and kind of like guided me in a lot
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of the things that I look at and apply to our guys here at IU for
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sure. So I'm definitely would love to
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meet him and kind of pick his brain a little bit kind of into
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the future. But yeah, no doubt like one of
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the innovators in the space of fluid dynamics and ball flight
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and. To wait.
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So Speaking of the application of this kind of stuff to the
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guys that I you, I know some of this is part of the secret sauce
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and has to stay close to the chest.
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But when did you start actually applying these ideas behind ball
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flight and fluid dynamics to your players beyond just your
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own research, but when it actually transitioned to an on
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field application? I think it was first like we
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probably all did in the space for like we're we're we're in a
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bullpen, we have track man up and it's like that pitch isn't
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moving like it's supposed to or we expect it to, right?
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Or why, why are guys able to kind of get more movement or
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less movement? Or why does the the catcher say
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like that pitch is gross when if you look at track man, it's
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like, oh, that that's not moving like the exact way that I
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thought it would be from whether it's from electronic camera or
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from video or the catcher's feedback or the pitcher's
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feedback or the hitter's feedback or just track man, kind
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of like the observed versus inferred access and all that
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stuff. I think that was kind of where
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it started was like, hey, there's definitely something to
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this like this. It's not all based on Magnus
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effect. So I think that was kind of the
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big one to start with. Like, you know, being in the
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bullpen kind of seeing all that stuff of like, hey, that's
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definitely not the whole picture.
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Like Magnus is not the entire picture.
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So I think that was like kind of the big one of like being hands
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on in the bullpen and like seeing that and then watching
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the Edgertronic video. I think it's still the biggest
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part for me. Like there's definitely a part
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of like looking at the observed versus the inferred axis and
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there's definitely there's a ton of that stuff.
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And now Attract Me does a great job with their 3D axis fan
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cameras and all that stuff to kind of paint a really good
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picture of like what's actually happening.
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But I think it was watching the video, watching that stuff like,
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hey, this, this is definitely not all moving based on there's
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definitely something more to this.
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So let me dig into this a little bit deeper.
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And just to kind of re anchor the discussion for maybe the, I
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don't want to say more novice listeners, but maybe the group
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that isn't as deep on seam effects, the Magnus effect is
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the spin induced movement, correct?
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Correct, Correct. Yeah.
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The the the movement you get based on the spin you're
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imparting on the ball. So a lot of what you work in or
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kind of where we get into, I don't wholly want to say the art
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because of course there is a science behind some shifted
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wake, but maybe that's where the applied portion of it kind of
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becomes the art. So a lot of what you're working
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with is actually how the ball is interacting directly with the
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air, correct? Yeah.
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So I would say like with every ball, like obviously when you
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when you impart gyro on the balls and this is like the seams
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on my ball here. Like once, once you impart some
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element of gyro on the ball, you're you're starting to impart
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seam effects on the ball because of like the separation points
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that are incurred based on how the flows imparting with the
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seams. And then you're kind of looking
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at each guy of like, okay, for this guy's gyro, how can we kind
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of optimize his seam orientation to allow him to get the most
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seam effects on the ball? And I think a lot of that is
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kind of a mix, like you said, of an art of like you're looking at
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the data, you're looking at the observed versus the inferred
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axis. You're looking at kind of those
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points of the separation on the ball based on the seam
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orientation. You're looking at kind of where
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that wake is, is kind of forming on the backside of the ball.
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And then you're looking at, OK, how can we optimize like his,
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his grip or his seam orientation to allow him to get the most
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team effects for what he's doing.
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Basically anyone with gyro is going to get seam effects.
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It's just how can we kind of optimize those?
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That's that's As for him and consistent.
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I think that's one thing too is like it can be when you impart
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seam effects, there's some inconsistencies in that.
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So you have to be able to kind of find what is a consistent way
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they can get those seam effects to get the true value of them.
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How much trial and error is really associated with this on
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the development side? I know you've been chasing this
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down for a while. You obviously have a pretty
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solid background working with pitchers.
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I mean, you said this is your 7th year at IE and based on the
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master's degree, it sounds like you've really kind of been going
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down this path for well over a decade now, which is kind of
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crazy to say. Granted, some of it was you
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messing around or realizing there was something there back
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in your own college career. But yeah, even at this point, I,
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I'm sure you have this tremendous library of grips or
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you see a guy with a certain amount of gyro degree and you
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can kind of call upon like, oh, this has worked in a similar
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case in the past. But with the variables kind of
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the uncontrollable variable of what a player is actually going
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to have an aptitude for. How long is it normally taking
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you and that player in the development process?
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I think we always start from like when you look at the pitch
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design process, we we look at it more like holistically, like
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what is your entire pitch package and, and what do you
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kind of need to be successful? And that could be something for
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like how do you, how do you perform against left and
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right-handed hitters? How do you perform in different
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count leverage states? How, how do you perform just in
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different scenarios? And then what, what is kind of
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the, the missing thing for you? What do we need to kind of
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improve on? So we always kind of start with
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like the pitch arsenal as a whole.
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And then how, when we're making changes or adjustments, does
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this fit in for something that is going to help him from like
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keeping his entire arsenal in mind?
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I think is really important and not just like we're designing a
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pitch in a vacuum. I think that that can that can
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get a little bit difficult at times and just something that
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you really want to stray away from.
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So I think you, you kind of start with that of like, hey,
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this would be a really good idea for him of like these
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adjustments we could potentially make.
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And then you kind of look into the data obviously from Trackman
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and Edger based on like the inferred versus the observed
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axis. You look at the Edrotronic
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camera, you kind of say, hey, this is not optimized for for
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kind of his current gyro. Here's some potential
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adjustments we can make. We always start with like we
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make a pretty in depth video with all the data and the
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Edrotronic video for the player. And we kind of bring them in and
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we walk them through this because there's a lot of
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knowledge of like this is how the balls coming off of your
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hand. This is what's happening.
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This is the potential adjustment we could make that we think
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could really add 3 inches of horizontal movement.
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It could kill 2 inches of lift it what whatever that is.
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Or you know, it could add 3 inches of lift, whatever it is.
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So we kind of outline that to the player and then we kind of
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put them in an environment where like that's the most likely
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outcome. So whether it's something like a
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seam orientation ball where you have like the seam orientation
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kind of drawn on the ball or something like that.
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And we kind of start with that and catch play.
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And then we kind of monitor that on their next bullpen and
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trackman. And we're willing to make kind
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of minor adjustments to the grip kind of in that.
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And then it's about does that grip stick?
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Like things have to be sticky where it's like, can he can he
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master the feel of that grip? Can he master the consistency of
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release of that grip? But yeah, it's definitely a lot
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of trial and error. And I think you have to be
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willing to apply that test and retest policy is as long as you
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have an objective mind and like you're, you're willing to like
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test and retest throughout, you can make adjustments a lot
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quicker and kind of know like, are we on the right path or do
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we need to deviate to a different grip or to a different
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kind of queue? Because like the other part too
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is like what you say needs to, it is interpreted by a player
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differently all the time. So you have to get into that
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barrier too, of making sure the player is understanding this in
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a way that that you want them to, because how you think about
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what you're explaining, it's not exactly the same always as the
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player interprets that. So I think that's a big part,
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but it's definitely a lot of a lot of trial and error.
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But I think if you use objective feedback that you're you're able
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to get to that a lot quicker. One specific piece I want to
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highlight is you said you'd start with the Arsenal, but we
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start with the Arsenal and then we'll look at individual pitches
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from there. In the relationship to the
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Arsenal as a whole, How difficult is that to stay
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focused on optimizing the Arsenal as opposed to optimizing
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one specific pitch just because 21 inches of H brake is really
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cool? For sure it's it's tough because
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like, and a lot of that is like what guys see on Twitter, right?
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It's like that that's awesome to have like the sweeper at like,
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you know, 23 inches of break and it's just like the Frisbee
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slider they throw up there. But also if you look at it, it's
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like, OK, like what situation are you going to be in a game?
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What is your pitch package to right-handed hitters to
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left-handed hitters? And then how does this play?
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What is the projected usage for this pitch?
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Like a lot of times we, we're, we're banging our head against
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the wall on like moving a guy's fastball grip and we're, it
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might be only a 20% usage pitch to a righty anyway.
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So like, like we, we can do this, but like that's not going
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to be kind of where we get to anyway.
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So we don't want to spend all of our time there.
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And then there's like the interaction of like any guy that
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that's a supinator. Like if, if we're working on a
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heavily supinated pitch, like like a sweeper or whatever,
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there could be effects down the chain of like on his cutter on
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his fastball. Like when you train that, that
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certain kind of that supination base grip so much, there's
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changes kind of throughout the arsenal.
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And so you have to keep those kind of things in mind, but it's
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definitely difficult and there's definitely times to do that.
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There's definitely time, especially with older guys that
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are a little bit more mature and have better proprioception and
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better like feel for like the release of the ball.
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Those guys are a little bit easier to be like, hey, we're
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working on the sweeper today. But then we need to kind of mix
17:23
in obviously our fastball as well to make sure we're keeping
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that consistent release because you know, a lot of those guys
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will end up cutting the ball a little bit more kind of after
17:31
going off of the sweeper. So you have to kind of adjust
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those those things as well. But yeah, no, it's, it's
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definitely, it's definitely can be tough at times, but it's
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something that I think when you look at the Arsenal as a whole,
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holistic pitch package, that's the best kind of way to to
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start. And sticking with the theme of
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the Arsenal here, I really like asking this question to those
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who really are adept with pitch and Arsenal design.
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If you are looking to optimize an arsenal for a guy, are you
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typically going to start with the fastball or are you going to
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start with the pitch that already has the best stuff?
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Plus, where's kind of our jumping off point?
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Well, first, fastballs are difficult to change.
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So fastball profiles are not easy to change.
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People say like your gyro is your gyro like that, that that
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can be a little bit difficult to change.
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Not saying it's impossible, but there's a lot and a lot of that
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can come from like a mechanical perspective of like how on time
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is your arm? How's your kinetic sequence like
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there's a lot of things that go into that as well.
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Fastballs are difficult. We've had some luck with with
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guys fastballs, but I would say breaking balls are easier from a
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pitch design perspective just because there's so much more
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variation in grip that those guys throw those with.
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But I think one thing that like it is often overlooked is like
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adding Velo to a breaking ball or a fastball is a pitch design
18:51
new pitch in and of itself. So we we also take that into
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account. We're like, yes, we can change
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the grip on your fastball, but if we also did like AV low cycle
19:01
or we or we optimize your mechanics in your force
19:03
production and that got you 2 to 3 miles an hour on your
19:06
fastball. That's also like doing a pitch
19:09
design session with your fastball.
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So you kind of have to keep that in mind too.
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I think the really interesting part that we found is like if
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you were to like pitch design A sweeper or a slider, what comes
19:21
first like the spin axis and getting that dialed in or the
19:24
Velo part. Because a lot of guys as they're
19:26
learning that new pitch and especially when they're not at a
19:28
full intent in game competitive situation, the Velo on those are
19:33
obviously lower kind of the trade off of like making sure
19:36
you can get it at the right Velo and also keep that that
19:40
orientation and that spin access to what you kind of need for it
19:42
to perform well. So I think that's kind of one
19:45
thing that we've battled a lot and I think we have a good grip
19:47
on now, but it's like ultimately you have to to throw things
19:50
hard. Like that's ultimately what's
19:52
going to be the best, especially at the next level.
19:54
There's some pockets in there where things can perform better
19:58
at different Velos in general, throwing things harder it is is
20:02
normally better. And that's definitely a trade
20:04
off in that can like the the the frisbee sweeper at 74 like
20:09
that's great, but like that, that, that ain't it like that,
20:12
that ain't it. So.
20:13
It's the trade off of that of like, is this a grip?
20:16
Yes, that you can get the orientation right, but that you
20:18
can also throw hard and kind of get to the zones that you need
20:21
to. So but that that plays itself
20:23
out in our models and our numbers of like, hey, this is
20:25
kind of the V low and and kind of the movement and and and kind
20:28
of gyro and orientation range that we need to get to.
20:31
So we kind of keep all of those in mind and we're kind of always
20:34
keeping V low as a component of that.
20:36
If it is so difficult to alter the fastball, when might be the
20:42
case where you actually tried to do something about it, I think.
20:46
One, I mean, that's why I think the best part is like starting
20:48
out like what happens at the plate.
20:50
It's like we don't we don't really adjust guys that much if
20:54
they're having success at the plate.
20:55
You can look at a guy's obviously, well, dead zone is
20:58
all relative to arm angle anyway.
20:59
I think that gets a lot of people in trouble that like my
21:01
dead zones are my heaters dead zone.
21:03
It's like what you throw from like a sidearm arm slot.
21:05
So like no, it's not. It's like that's it's all about
21:08
like for us, it's like, what does the hitter expect your
21:12
pitches to do from your arm slot?
21:14
And we're trying to get far away from that if we can.
21:16
So like if you're, if you're an over the top guy, like he
21:20
probably doesn't expect your ball to like run that much right
21:23
arm side. If you're like a low 3/4, like
21:27
he doesn't expect your ball to have any type of like lift on it
21:30
necessarily. So I think we're trying to
21:32
always deviate from the norm in terms of like what your pitches
21:34
expect to do from that arm slot. So I think if you keep that in
21:38
mind, you're in a good spot. But yeah, it would be starting
21:40
from the plate. Like if a guy's like not having
21:43
success with that pitch and like the hitter's feedback is going
21:46
to tell you a lot because that's what in the stuff plus ERA and
21:48
all that, those things are great.
21:49
And we have a bunch of models that help us kind of predict the
21:53
effectiveness of a pitch. But like one of the most kind of
21:57
underutilized 1 is like asking the hitter.
21:59
Like the hitter will tell you if the pitch is good.
22:01
Like yes, you're expected batting average you're expected,
22:04
but like whatever it is is like XY or Z on the pitch.
22:08
Like that's going to tell you a lot of like how that pitch
22:10
performs And like at that point that supersedes the like dead
22:14
zone or low stuff plus value that that is on that pitch.
22:18
Like if, if it's performing well, we're probably not going
22:20
to make to a too many adjustments.
22:22
But if it's not performing well, it's not consistent in the zone
22:25
and you may not have like a grip that feels super comfortable and
22:29
confident with. Then we look into that like,
22:31
hey, how can we get a more consistent grip for you?
22:35
And then how do we kind of dial into like the intended zones of
22:37
where that's going to play the best for you?
22:39
This might be me mixing up some big brain idea with something
22:43
that actually is really simple, but has there ever been a
22:47
mission to create a true Arsenal plus type model?
22:52
Yeah, for sure. And there's there's ones out
22:54
there. I think that that's a yes, that
22:56
that's a huge part. You know, there's a lot of those
22:58
that will take like the deviation from your average
23:01
fastball into account. So especially with like change
23:03
ups and stuff like that, I think that stuff is really big.
23:07
Yeah, for sure there there's no doubt of like when you look at
23:09
things from an Arsenal perspective, you can say like
23:12
how good is this based on like your other pitches in your
23:16
Arsenal that that could be effective.
23:17
That's how kind of how we we we've gotten to a lot of changes
23:20
with guys on that based on like, hey, this may not show up in
23:23
isolation as a high stuff plus like pitch, but like based on
23:27
your other pitches, this will play even higher than what
23:30
looking at that in isolation would be.
23:31
So yeah, you always have to take into account the guy's fat
23:34
general fastball, his release characteristics, his approach
23:38
angles, his horizontal approach angles, all of those things to
23:40
be able to build like, hey, what is the most effective pitch?
23:43
But it does come down to like, does the hitter expect your
23:46
pitches to do what they do from your arm slot?
23:50
If you're if you're expected movement is the same from your
23:52
arm slides, what the hitter sees everyday, like, yeah, like it's
23:54
going to get hit. But like if it doesn't, it does.
23:56
It's like the hitter's always come back.
23:58
Like, man, I just, I didn't expect it to do that.
24:00
It's like that's when you're on the right track.
24:02
So kind of along the same lines with this whole Arsenal design
24:07
concept, but we're going to shift ever so slightly.
24:10
Knowing your background with S&C, some of the stuff that
24:13
you've done on the rehab side, are you ever seeing guys making
24:19
changes intentionally or unintentionally to an Arsenal or
24:24
to a Grip profile because of what they've experienced, an
24:28
injury or in their return? Yeah, I think that's a really
24:31
difficult one and one that I think like I would say most
24:34
people in the industry have like struggled with at times because
24:38
you obviously have the, the nature of like whenever you're
24:42
doing low intent throwing, I think things can like maybe get
24:46
a little bit tough. And that's why I like a lot of,
24:49
I feel like the best rehab protocols happen based on like a
24:52
velocity based like return to throw program.
24:54
When when you start throwing at low intent, there's maybe
24:58
unexplained or unintended changes to like how you're
25:02
moving and how you're throwing in like the kinematic sequence
25:05
that I think are maybe not good for guys and you kind of lose a
25:09
little bit of lack of fuel as you're coming back.
25:10
So I think there's some changes that are made there with guys
25:13
that are returning the throw and throwing at a lower intent.
25:16
And that's why I think like the velocity base return to throw
25:19
programs are so good And like the plyo ball kind of like
25:21
return to throws have been so good because you can kind of
25:24
like constrain the throw when you're returning the throw.
25:28
So well now that like you're keeping a similar pattern to
25:31
what you need to do when you'll be back to like full speed.
25:35
I think that's really, really important.
25:36
So we've just got tried to like constrain things so much that
25:40
like you're doing a pivot pick or you're doing this kind of
25:44
like plyo routine that is going to be like, even though you're
25:46
not at full capacity yet, you're keeping a similar, you know,
25:50
sequence and pattern to how you you're going to throw when
25:53
you're back. That like we're not creating any
25:55
bad habits or or anything like that, because there are there
25:58
are just some pitches that are like more difficult to throw at
26:00
lower intense. You are developing feel for that
26:04
pitch, throwing it at a lower intent, but you also just just
26:07
like in terms of arm speed and like, you know, the just overall
26:09
like how your body's moving is is completely different
26:12
sometimes in those those lower intense situations.
26:14
So we try to constrain the best we can, whether it is like plyo
26:18
balls, weighted balls, whatever it is that we can kind of keep a
26:21
similar intent. Two things I want to address
26:24
here 1 is the guardrails that you're kind of putting up to
26:28
keep guys on the straight and narrow.
26:29
Of course you want them to be athletes and problem solve is
26:33
what I'm gathering. It's not like you're preventing
26:35
them from any deviation whatsoever.
26:38
You just provide constraints to avoid corrosive patterns.
26:43
You want them to, I guess, operate with the intent of
26:48
getting back to not the movement profile that got them hurt, but
26:51
the movement profile that allowed them to be successful.
26:54
Obviously, I know that that's a little funky when you're talking
26:56
about trying to keep someone in the same movements.
26:58
I would guess we're kind of, I don't want to put words in your
27:00
mouth, but I would guess we're kind of on the on the same side
27:03
of the aisle here with often times mechanics are not the
27:06
thing worth changing in, in the injury for sure.
27:11
Yeah, I wanted to make sure I didn't entirely put words in
27:13
your mouth there, which is why I paused to make sure you could at
27:15
least agree or disagree with me quickly.
27:17
Yeah. And the the other side or the
27:21
other piece that I wanted to address is what you said
27:25
regarding certain pitches are more difficult to throw at lower
27:30
velocities. That might seem like a very
27:33
obvious statement to the masses. But where that gets so difficult
27:37
in rehab, I would say from now my side of the aisle where we
27:41
might be dealing with different populations is so often on this
27:45
rehab side, we are recognizing that different pitches have
27:49
different torques and different stresses on the elbow and the
27:52
arm in general. Thus each pitch type to a
27:56
certain extent likely deserves its own ramp up or its own quasi
28:02
throwing program within the greater structure of the return.
28:05
But we we then are left with the very difficult position on your
28:10
side where you might be coaching a guy or working with a guy,
28:12
getting him back to the field. And that slider just isn't
28:16
moving or spinning the way we wanted to.
28:19
But we need to throw it at 65 mph, at 68 mph, at 71 mph as
28:25
we're slowly building up. Because the worst thing that we
28:28
could do for this guy is say, great, you're now throwing your
28:30
fastball at 93 again, you should probably start throwing the
28:33
slider now. Yeah.
28:34
Never working in that supinated position that they need to
28:37
access when they actually throw the slider.
28:39
So maybe this is a point where you're putting the art hat back
28:43
on instead of the your applied science hat.
28:46
How do you manage that with a player juggling what you know
28:50
needs to happen physiologically while still managing the psyche
28:55
in the process? The first one, maybe a little
28:57
bit unrelated is I think some guys too during the rehab
28:59
process and they'll be like, well, I just, I want to get back
29:02
to how I used to throw. It's like, well, there's also
29:05
some elements potentially in there of like could be why you
29:08
got hurt a little bit. So like we, we have to keep that
29:11
in mind. We're like we're not making
29:13
mechanical changes necessary, but we're trying to like and
29:17
that's where I think just like with the constraint sled
29:19
approach of that side of like you could potentially clean up
29:23
arm action, optimize arm action, optimize the kinetic chain.
29:26
Like you're working on the sequencing part.
29:28
A lot of that happens with like the plyo balls and weighted
29:31
balls and kind of like the athletic throwing part of you're
29:34
really trying to get them outside of that rigid state
29:38
where like our most return to throw programs are.
29:42
So I think that's kind of part of it too.
29:43
Where we found is like, you know, guys will try to like, I
29:45
want to get back to how just how I used to throw and like again,
29:48
for some guys that's great. Some guys like there were some
29:51
mechanical issues when they got hurt or or there were some
29:54
things that like need to be adjusted.
29:56
So we don't always want to go back to that exact state, but I
29:59
think that's why like the constraints approach, it is so
30:01
important because it allows you to add that athleticism back
30:04
into the throw and take the mind off of like, I just need to get
30:08
in the static positions again. And I can just become more
30:12
athletic and get to like, let's actually rehab and kind of on
30:16
ramp the arm again to withhold those workloads or those torques
30:20
or or those kind of things that we need to be able to then
30:23
attack those things from a little bit higher standpoint.
30:25
So yeah, I mean, in general, like what we'll start working
30:27
spin and those things back later in the on ramp kind of process.
30:31
And just kind of knowing that like when we get back to the
30:33
mound and we're at a higher intent, we just want the feel
30:37
for those pitches to to be there.
30:38
And then we can kind of work on the exact pitch design phase
30:41
once we kind of get more acclimation of workload to them
30:44
and they're in a better spot to be able to train at a higher
30:46
capacity. But we definitely have them
30:49
develop the like the feel for those and once they're at a
30:52
certain part in that on ramp phase kind of throwing program
30:55
back from injury. So again, depending on what what
30:58
the injury is, or let's say it's like a 12 week week return to
31:01
throw. Maybe it's it's by week, you
31:03
know, 6 to 8. We're starting to introduce kind
31:05
of those back in or something like that more so fuel based.
31:08
And then kind of once we get kind of back onto the mound,
31:11
what we'll kind of work on those from like a pitch design.
31:13
We really don't like pitch design in terms of like working
31:16
on pitch design stuff or even really mechanical stuff in that
31:20
return to throw segment because there's so many things going on.
31:23
We really are trying to like get the arm and the body accustomed
31:28
to moving at those speeds into handling that workload and that
31:31
torque during that segment, not so much working on those other
31:35
things. But I do think you can attack
31:37
kind of the mechanical perspective from when when you
31:40
implement those kind of those constraints LED approach of like
31:43
the weighted balls, bio balls and those athletic throws and
31:46
catch play that are that are really good and, and and kind of
31:48
steer away from the more rigid distance based kind of throwing
31:52
kind of return the throws. I want to make sure we connect
31:55
the dots on one specific piece here.
31:58
I'm hearing it loud and clear, but I, I think just to make it
32:01
more obvious to the audience, which is the freedom that
32:05
actually exists with a Velo guided program.
32:08
Or at least that's what's coming through loud and clear to me.
32:11
Cuz if you're working through a Velo guided either rehab slash
32:15
return to throw program or truly just a Velo guided on ramp, that
32:20
is literally the only thing that you are utilizing as a true
32:25
standard in the process. From there, you have all these
32:28
options that you can choose from because my drill work or my
32:32
constraints might look different than yours.
32:34
Then the next guy that we have down the line from us going
32:37
through the throwing program, our athletic throws can look
32:41
different, The weights we use look different.
32:43
The actual implement that we're throwing can look different, but
32:46
knowing that we can manage torques with a radar gun I think
32:50
is actually very freeing instead of constraining.
32:55
Yeah, for sure. It's, it's, it's never maybe
32:57
100% made sense to me like the the distance stuff because like
33:00
really we're trying to get a guy to be like his best at 60 feet,
33:05
6 inches kind of thing. And so you kind of have that
33:07
element. And then it's like, OK, like if
33:10
we're doing pivot picks, we can monitor the radar of those kind
33:13
of week by week from an on ramp, from a pivot pick and just kind
33:16
of stay like, hey, we're, we're kind of staying at this range
33:18
week one, this range Week 2. And like we're kind of like, and
33:20
then we're kind of using the athletes feedback to like kind
33:23
of progress those things. I think that just kind of really
33:26
helps. And then you can kind of
33:27
constrain the body in terms of how it can move.
33:30
It's like I'm a typical pivot pick, like your hips are facing
33:33
forward, like you're constraining elements of the
33:35
move. So you really can't like you
33:37
can't throw that 90 miles an hour.
33:39
So like you were constraining it from that, but like you can
33:41
still feel like, okay, I'm going to like still move fast or move
33:46
efficiently. But then it's like I'm taking,
33:49
I'm taking a little bit of like parts of the of the kinematic
33:51
sequence out of the chain. So then they can just kind of
33:53
like go from there and feel athletic and feel smooth kind of
33:56
with those throws, knowing that he's not going to be able to get
33:59
to that V low that's going to like impair him at all.
34:02
If we can strain it in the right way.
34:04
But yeah, going back to like the guide reels, I mean, that's kind
34:06
of a staple of like the entire philosophy or program.
34:08
It's like, I think of it of like we all went bowling back when we
34:11
were kids. We put up the bumpers, but like
34:14
the athlete is the one throwing the ball down the lane.
34:17
We're just the bumpers, keeping them out of the gutter.
34:19
Like we, we have all the information, we have all the
34:21
tools, we have all the feedback. We have all that stuff.
34:24
We're using those to kind of adjust the guide rails.
34:27
But like it's their job to throw the ball down the lane and then
34:31
guide that thing within those guide rails.
34:33
Because that's where a lot of the like secret sauce for like
34:36
those guys come in of like having the freedom to use their
34:38
body, use their feedback and kind of using their own
34:42
intuition of like, how can I get there?
34:44
It's like whether that comes from a step back or a walk in,
34:49
we give guidelines on that and what we think.
34:51
But like ultimately, like we're after like what the end result
34:54
is and what the end movement should look like.
34:56
It's if they have insight on to what helps them get to that
34:59
better and what they feel we're just going to use the objective
35:02
feedback to be able to tell them is that working or not?
35:05
And then how can we make minor adjustments kind of throughout
35:07
that? I think we can parlay this part
35:10
of the conversation into the player education that we talked
35:13
a little bit about off air. Obviously this becomes very
35:18
important with your program, with what you guys have
35:20
available to you tech wise, not only on the field but in the
35:23
weight room as well. And something that I know you
35:27
encourage to all ends and that is autonomy.
35:31
You you want players to be able to be their own best coach at
35:35
the end of the day, but you need to provide them either with the
35:38
the education or the proper information to make these
35:41
decisions in the process. So what does that look like on
35:45
your end, whether it's you specifically or the staff as a
35:48
whole in efforts to actually set up those bumpers to keep the
35:52
bowling ball going ahead? We are OK with some variation as
35:56
long as we can keep them down the alley.
35:58
But as long as we're progressing towards those pins, we're good.
36:01
So how do you go about that? Yeah.
36:03
I think it, I think it starts from education obviously of like
36:06
what is like our, our mechanical buckets like pillars look like,
36:09
let me talk about initiation loading, rotating and and
36:13
blocking phase of the delivery. So just as kind of like an
36:15
example, like you kind of have those 4 pillars and that's kind
36:18
of how we breakdown video with with those guys or when we're
36:22
doing after action reviews or things like that with them, we
36:24
kind of break it down from those 4 segments.
36:26
And then we kind of ask a lot of what's your feedback?
36:29
Like what do you feel like? How does this look?
36:31
But if you educate them on what are those 4 phases of the
36:34
delivery, why are they each important and how do they fit
36:37
within your specific case. I think you end up getting a lot
36:40
of ideas and like kind of natural dialogue back and forth.
36:44
A guy may come in and like, I feel like I'm swagging a little
36:46
bit in my initiation part of my delivery or like, how do I get
36:48
into a better spot going in from my loading to my rotating phase?
36:52
Like they, they kind of have a little bit of idea of like, why
36:54
is this important? Why is this necessary?
36:57
And then like, how does it apply to me?
36:59
And then you kind of explain when, when you outline drills
37:02
or, or kind of potential constraints or solutions to
37:04
something, what is this targeting?
37:06
What what is this doing? How can this help you?
37:10
And then it really arms them with like a freedom of like, OK,
37:12
like I understand more the why behind it.
37:16
And then I, I can maybe even look at some potential solutions
37:18
that might work that better for me or, or I saw this or, you
37:22
know, I had another person mention this or I know this
37:24
worked for this guy. Our thing is always like when
37:26
you come in about that stuff, just like have a clear plan of
37:29
why, What's the why? Why do you want to do this?
37:32
And then we're normally, we're definitely open to those kind of
37:34
ideas, but it gives them kind of ownership in their career too.
37:37
I think is a big part is something like flex pro grip.
37:40
It's like we kind of explain the benefits, we explain the
37:43
research, we explain why this is helpful.
37:45
And then and we don't get a ton of like, you know, push back on
37:49
using it because it's like we provide them with the resources.
37:52
And then it's like, hey, this is what a lot of people have found
37:55
and there's a lot of research on this of why this can help you.
37:58
This is how this is how it's best implemented.
38:00
And they kind of take with it and run with it.
38:02
You don't have to kind of check in like, hey, did the guys do it
38:04
today? It's like, yeah, we, we, they,
38:06
they did because they, they, they understand the value, they
38:08
understand the why and they know how it's best for their career.
38:11
And you can apply that to any, whether it's it's drill package,
38:15
it's it's piece of technology, it's, it's anything like that.
38:18
And then I think they come up with their own natural ideas of
38:20
like, hey, this is the kind of thing this would be really good.
38:23
And then it's like always. My first question is like,
38:25
that's great. It sounds awesome.
38:27
What what is what is this specifically target in your
38:29
development plan? What does this do for you?
38:31
Does this help you load better? Does this help you with better
38:34
initiation? Does this potential grip change?
38:37
Like what does that do for you that you currently don't have?
38:41
It just spawns them to think about things, you know, past the
38:43
service level, which I which I think is really beneficial for
38:46
for their career because ultimately, like we're not going
38:49
to be with them every single day, every time they ever throw
38:53
a baseball. So I want those reps to be as
38:57
important as if we were there on the field with them during catch
39:00
play. So it's like they they can start
39:02
to see like, OK, this is what it feels like and this is what it
39:06
looks like when it's good or when it's not good or this what
39:09
the ramifications of this potential change could be.
39:12
Or This is why my slider performs best in this part of
39:16
the zone. Or This is why this pitch
39:18
sequence works for me or why my expected run value to a righty
39:23
is, is much better in this location than this location.
39:26
And then if a guy swing potentially, if I if I read a
39:29
swing in a certain way, this is how that could adjust this.
39:32
It's like you're just arming that with being much more
39:34
adjustable and adaptable and not so robotic.
39:37
I think that's what we've tried to get away from is being so
39:39
robotic in this and being able to allow them to like free them
39:43
with information and tools and resources.
39:45
So when you go out on the mound like it is straight up compete
39:48
mode. The words I was going to use
39:51
before you kind of got to the definition at the end was going
39:54
to be discovered versus recollected.
39:57
You want guys to be able to work through a process, whether it's
40:01
self discovery or guided discovery, where they've gotten
40:04
to a point where they can ask the questions, understand the
40:07
why, if the why was discovered on their own or if it was guided
40:11
by you guys versus if you just tell them upfront.
40:15
Even if they have blind trust, blind trust like fine, that
40:17
definitely makes coaching relatively easy.
40:21
Yeah at the point like what's sticky about that a player has
40:24
no idea what the why is if everything is blind.
40:27
I do think there is some merit now like being a Dick head about
40:31
it isn't great but if like if there is a little challenge or a
40:34
push back or the question why and you sound like a whiny
40:37
child, I don't care. That's fine, because ultimately
40:41
it's going to force both parties to be better and become correct
40:45
and actually work towards the solution in the end.
40:48
Yeah. And I would say like, that's
40:50
where I mean, yeah, I'm not, we're not big on like, I mean,
40:53
blind trust. Like that's that's great.
40:55
And a lot of players do have blind trust in their coaches.
40:57
And I think that's that is important.
40:58
Like there is that part, especially with guys that put in
41:01
the time and effort to understand things at such a deep
41:03
level. But that is important.
41:06
But we we don't shy away from like players asking like for why
41:10
is this the case? Like, well, what about this?
41:12
Because I think that like to your point of like that, that
41:14
makes you become like a better educator.
41:17
I'm not not even just a coach. We're we're trying to educate
41:20
them to be the best version of themselves.
41:21
And so that's happened a lot for me of like a guy will ask for
41:24
like, what will, why is that the case?
41:27
Well, like, why is that the seem that the, the spin direction or
41:30
the axis on my slider? Why, why would this be better?
41:33
And it's forced me to like really take a step back and
41:35
like, yeah, like, no, I, I know it's right.
41:38
I know this is what's going to work for him, but like I have to
41:40
do a better job of explaining that to him and make sure he
41:44
understands why and have that backed by objective feedback.
41:47
I think it's been, it's been a huge, a huge part of development
41:50
for me for sure. Do you have any specific
41:53
examples that you can even call upon, whether it's recent or
41:57
early in your career, where a player approached you and you
42:01
just straight up didn't have the answer?
42:03
Oh yeah, it happens all the time.
42:04
I think anyone that says that and I think anyone that says
42:07
they don't like, that's what kind of a transition for me was
42:10
like early on. I think maybe in all of our
42:11
careers, but for me specifically, coming from such a
42:13
technical background was like I needed to prove my knowledge.
42:19
So like so much to the player, right where it's like we think
42:22
that's going to be the best score.
42:23
And like I do think that's part of it, but it's switched a lot
42:27
for me in the last couple of years.
42:28
We're like the first part whenever like I work with the
42:31
players, like you have to build like a like trust in a
42:35
relationship with them. Like if they don't, if they
42:38
don't like have that trust in that relationship with you, the
42:41
next words that come out of your mouth really don't matter.
42:44
Doesn't matter how smart you are.
42:46
It really doesn't. There's a lot of really smart
42:47
people out there much smarter than me.
42:50
It doesn't matter how much you know, it's about how much can
42:52
you make an impact on that player.
42:54
And there's a lot of smart people that aren't able to have
42:57
that impact because they can't, you know, they can't build that
42:59
relationship with the players. So I think building the
43:01
relationship in the trust with them is, is by far the number
43:05
one thing for me with working with a guy.
43:07
And then you, but there is a part you, you do have to
43:09
provide, like you have to show technical expertise in your
43:12
area. You do.
43:13
So I think, but that I think that comes second for me now.
43:16
But I do think that's been a huge flip of like, yeah, like
43:19
there's been a ton of time where it's like what I will say is
43:21
like, listen, like I don't know the exact answer to your
43:25
question, but I will, I will get back to you as soon as I know
43:28
like right after this, I'm going to do a deep dive and look into
43:32
this. And, and we will, we will break
43:34
this down either later today or tomorrow.
43:36
And I'm going to get to an answer for you.
43:37
But like I'm never going to give an answer that I don't have like
43:41
objective based feedback for. I just think there's a lot of
43:44
times in, in coaching that it's like, well, I, I, you know, the
43:49
subjective part comes in, we're like, well, I think you should
43:51
do this with your delivery or I think you should do this.
43:53
It's like there's, there's, there's a lot of really good
43:56
like coaches that that can do that.
43:59
That's not necessarily like the lane that I approach it from.
44:03
And I think you can do that. I just think it helps when you
44:05
have like you come from like a spot of like the objective
44:09
feedback side of like you, you actually know that's what's
44:11
going to be best for the player. And sometimes that can be your
44:14
eyes. It can be for guys that I've
44:15
seen in a long time and been in and been in the game 30 years
44:18
and, and I've coached, you know, 100 big leaguers, like they,
44:21
they definitely can see that. But there's always a way you can
44:23
put some objective kind of point to it of like this is what I
44:26
definitely think you should do. And this is what it kind of it
44:29
says from the data and stuff. Because you mentioned trust in
44:32
relationships, I'm going to make a really crappy Segway here to
44:36
talk about something that is a little bit different than I
44:39
think anything that's been talked about on this podcast
44:42
before. And, and part of that is because
44:44
of your unique role on staff, also overseeing the catchers.
44:49
With you overseeing the catchers.
44:51
I'm very curious what you have seen change over the years with
44:56
the position. Yeah, I think that the role has
44:59
has grown a lot, especially at the college side.
45:02
I I think like the training, much like the pitchers has
45:05
evolved as well. I think like, you know, from a
45:08
mentality standpoint is the biggest thing with the catching
45:10
position. Like we talk a lot about alpha
45:12
mentality. Like I just want them to be the
45:14
toughest, meanest, like, like guys that are like in charge,
45:18
like want to be in the arena. We talk about a lot about like
45:19
the man in the arena, Like they are the man in the arena behind
45:22
the plate. Like everyone's looking towards
45:24
them. They touch the ball every play.
45:25
They are in charge of the entire defense, but they have to build
45:29
that trust with the pitcher when they're out there like it is it
45:32
is that catcher and that pitcher working together in tandem to
45:36
get these hitters out. And so I really think like
45:38
building into like that culture of like they are they that
45:41
pitcher has to feel like the catcher is in the fight with
45:44
them and something we do, I think a really good job of here,
45:47
but it but it's similar from an environment standpoint of like
45:49
we train at such a high environment.
45:51
You know, our catching individuals are like we blare
45:54
the music. We have crazy environments, we
45:57
have crowd noise. We, we just, we, we catch really
46:01
high spin machines at all different angles with all
46:03
different weighted implements. I'm just making it as extremely
46:07
difficult as possible. So when they get on the field,
46:10
like it's a much, the game just slows down a lot for them
46:13
because there's so much required of that position.
46:16
So I mean, in game, we're asking them like, what do you see from
46:19
a hitter's swing? Where are they on the box?
46:21
What? And I, you know, there's times
46:23
that they're calling the games and I think they have a good
46:26
field, like having that vantage point of being behind the plate
46:30
that that none of us have from the dugout.
46:31
So we rely really heavily on them for that impact.
46:35
And like, yeah, they are just as much a part of the staff of
46:38
anyone in terms of that. They they know kind of which
46:41
guys do well in certain situations, What pitches
46:44
potentially like sequence the best off of each guy or like,
46:47
hey, he he's kind of sitting this pitch or I read on this
46:50
wing, I can read foul balls. Like we educate them on the Sky
46:53
report just like the pitchers or just like anyone else, we
46:56
definitely need their feedback and utilize their feedback quite
46:58
heavily. But it comes back to the
47:00
training. I think the train side is such a
47:02
high, high competitive environment that we train in
47:05
with the catchers. I think that's why they're
47:07
they're ready for that situation, are catchers.
47:09
Included on the pitcher's development plan or their
47:14
execution plan at all? I mean, yeah, yeah, I would say
47:17
a lot on the scouting side for sure.
47:19
On the development plans, yeah. We will sit down with guys like,
47:21
hey, like, what do you think? How does this guy's like when
47:25
we're pitch designing A slider, how do you think that slider
47:27
looks like? Do you think that would be more
47:29
difficult to like see or like like what zones do you think
47:33
that will be like the most effective on?
47:34
And obviously we have the numbers and the data that'll
47:36
tell us that, but you sometimes get some anomalies where it's
47:39
like, hey, like when he kind of backdoors that slider to a lefty
47:42
like it's, it's really effective.
47:44
I really think you're going to get a lot of takes there and
47:46
those things like we really value their feedback or he he
47:49
kind of threw the the one the one splitter he threw two weeks
47:52
ago and the one he changed now. Like I really think the old
47:54
one's going to have a lot more kind of kind of success.
47:57
So we'll kind of definitely take that into account.
47:59
But yeah, it's it's, it's so much about the relationship they
48:02
have with the pitchers of like the feeling of like they're in
48:04
the fight with them and like it's, it's what do we have to do
48:08
to kind of get get this hitter out all hands on deck for sure.
48:11
But yeah, it's the training of the catching side has exploded
48:14
just like on the pitching side, the way in which we're able to
48:16
train club speed, timing layer path.
48:19
And just that again, a constraints that approach with
48:21
that stuff is is huge and it's a, it's a it's extremely fun
48:25
group to work with. And have you seen the pitcher
48:27
catcher relationship change at all in your years coaching?
48:30
Yeah, I I think so just because like with with like, I mean, now
48:33
you have you have pitch com, it's easy for them to to call
48:37
pitches. There's so much on the sound
48:39
report. The best part is like they're
48:41
all they're all hitters as well. They know what what things are
48:44
really difficult like hit sequences to to hit.
48:47
So I think that the relationship with them, especially with like
48:52
in the in the past, like depending on if you kind of
48:54
deploy like a normal, maybe a more traditional staff with like
48:57
3 starters and a Tuesday starter and a typical closer bullpen,
49:00
kind of whatever your is. There's been times where we've
49:03
gone more match up based kind of in games and like we kind of use
49:07
their feedback a lot for that of like, hey, going from this arm
49:11
slot to this arm slot to this arm slot like that, that is
49:14
really kind of beneficial. And I think each catcher has
49:17
their own unique strengths. I mean things.
49:19
And I think that kind of helps us to where it's like we feel
49:22
more confident bringing in a guy with with runners on base that
49:25
we feel is like an elite thrower back there or like we have a
49:29
really good feel for like, hey, this guy, these guys have cold
49:32
pitches for each other really well.
49:33
Or like this grad transfer pitcher kind of has a good plan
49:36
for how he wants to attack guys and he works really well with
49:39
this guy. And those things have become
49:41
more prevalent for sure. So yeah, the the relationship
49:44
between those two are are definitely extremely important.
49:47
And at risk of yet another crappy Segway, Speaking of
49:51
relationships, I was very excited to talk to you about
49:54
your unique coaching relationship with Dustin Glant.
49:58
Of course, he's now moved on. So you have Matt Myers joining
50:02
the staff now. Granted, it's going to be a new
50:06
person, not sure how much the role in role dynamics will
50:09
change or shift, but I'd love if you could break down how your
50:14
role fits within the greater staff's plan.
50:18
Obviously with, with, with Dustin, a mentor of mine has
50:21
been a great resource to me and a great driver of the
50:24
development of, of my career on these last four years, a close
50:27
friend and someone we're extremely happy for.
50:29
I'm definitely proud of him and just I've learned a lot from
50:32
him. So he he's been very important
50:34
to me and kind of my development and I've I've learned a great
50:38
deal from him and we worked really well together.
50:40
I think a kind of a allowing me to be kind of that that second
50:44
pitching coach is not is not taking for granted and it can be
50:47
a little bit of a unique role on a staff and kind of trusting
50:51
someone else with helping with the development of the pitchers
50:54
can be difficult at times. It can be like an initial
50:56
change, But he was he's been awesome.
50:58
He's been also in my growth, my developments.
51:00
I owe a lot of kind of where I'm at to him for sure.
51:02
Very excited for him. But yeah, with, with Matt Myers
51:04
coming in, I think kind of a, a very similar role in some ways.
51:08
But obviously they'll be a lot kind of on the on ramp of of
51:11
kind of getting him up to speed with what we're doing.
51:13
But I'm kind of when we were looking throughout the process
51:16
like he's, he's definitely the right guy for, for the role of
51:19
what we need. He he's been at kind of every
51:21
level of, of both college and professional baseball.
51:24
And I think kind of brings a great leadership style to the
51:27
group and a great game management capability.
51:30
Having been a head coach, having done those things will be a
51:33
great fit to the group and still allow me to kind of do the
51:36
development base things that are that are kind of in my
51:38
wheelhouse. And I think when we looked at it
51:39
of like your, your goal is this like when you deploy a staff is
51:43
to keep guys kind of in the lanes that are like their
51:45
expertise. And I think that's kind of
51:47
something we were able to do with kind of bringing bring Matt
51:50
in and I think it'll be a great fit and be a great resource to
51:52
to the entire group. That's something to be really
51:54
excited about. I know it's tough to make a
51:58
transition on a staff, especially mid year.
52:01
This, this is obviously something we talked about off
52:04
air and is all too real in the college baseball landscape right
52:08
now. I mean, let's face it, this is
52:09
gonna be a problem every single year.
52:11
It's just funny how the pendulum swings, whether it's pro ball
52:14
poaching, college pitching coaches or college ball
52:19
coaching, big league coaches or pro ball coaches.
52:22
It just seems to go back and forth year to year or every
52:24
every couple of years. Bringing in someone new and
52:27
finding someone that can fit the culture is definitely going to
52:31
be difficult as you outlined. What does become, I guess a
52:37
strength or an inherent strength is a group that understands a
52:40
culture when they can bring in someone that, no, it's never
52:45
going to be direct plug and play, but somebody that has a
52:50
specific strength or skill that they can deplore immediately.
52:54
So for instance, you said Matt Myers has coached and worked at
52:59
every single level in damn near every single role.
53:03
So what what he can do right away is provide a cool, calm,
53:07
collected leadership game management mindset and approach
53:11
is at least what I'm understanding from what you
53:13
shared. Yeah, yeah, and had a lot of
53:15
success in those different rules, like his last stop with
53:17
with the Pirates, like they, they had like one of the best
53:19
minor league pitching, you know, and organizations in the in the
53:22
in the league, whenever you can bring guys in that fit from a
53:25
culture perspective, what you want to do as a group.
53:28
We're very lucky to have kind of like the pieces fall together to
53:31
have him, you know, be willing to do that and be available.
53:34
I I think was it was, it was a great resource and great value
53:37
add to the organization. So definitely excited to be able
53:40
to get to work from him, excited to get to learn from him, and I
53:43
think he'll just kind of push the staff forward and be able to
53:46
elevate the program to a new level.
53:47
Awesome, and I'm sure the Hoosiers hopes are high.
53:52
Hopefully a Big 10 title or a trip to Omaha.
53:55
I'm guessing that's on the goals or objectives written out
53:59
somewhere. You talk about team pillars and
54:01
all those things. I know you guys are no slouches
54:05
in what you've been able to do developmentally.
54:08
And now hoping that we can attach some hardware to it.
54:12
So maybe, maybe we'll turn this over for the more generic.
54:16
I know we're not going to get any true hot takes, but what is
54:19
the outlook for the 2026 Hoosiers baseball program?
54:24
We have a great, we have a great ruler guys.
54:25
We're we're really happy with where we're at, you know, and
54:29
the expectation when you're at a program like I use to win and to
54:32
win at a high level. And and I think that's what we
54:34
expect to do and want to do and we have the pieces to be able to
54:37
do that. Obviously, we need to do the
54:38
work on our end to be able to do those things.
54:40
But when you're at a place like IU and, and you have the pieces
54:44
in the program from like both a staff and a player perspective
54:47
that we do, we expect to be able to win at A at a really high
54:49
level. And that's what we're preparing
54:51
to do every day. So yeah, we we expect to compete
54:54
at a national level and and that's what we'll continue to
54:56
do. Excellent.
54:57
Well, Denton, this pretty much does it for me, aside from one
55:01
last kind of simple question is do you feel we missed anything
55:06
that's worth sharing? This is now just kind of where I
55:09
turn it over to you. I know we went crazy deep on a
55:12
couple topics, which probably limited how wide we actually got
55:16
in the discussion. But if there's anything else
55:18
that you feel is necessary to share at this time, before I
55:21
demand you come back on the podcast next offseason, I'd love
55:25
to just turn it over to you one last time.
55:27
No, I think that was really good questions.
55:29
I'm appreciative of all that you guys have done and kind of
55:31
resources to our program. I think that's, you know, when
55:34
we were looking at kind of outlining one thing I think we
55:37
do a really good job of is like building like an arm care like
55:40
resource to our program. And obviously flex Pro was one
55:43
of the biggest kind of things that we we wanted the target of
55:45
like continue to work with, with you guys with with all the
55:49
things you guys have done and obviously protecting guys, arm
55:52
health, protecting UCL and just like obviously increasing
55:55
performance. I think that's a big part too,
55:56
isn't, is not just keeping guys healthy, but maximizing
55:59
performance, which has been a really good thing.
56:01
And we take we take the arm care kind of side of things a little
56:05
bit differently where we're not just looking at keeping guys
56:07
healthier, we're looking at maximizing performance.
56:10
So whether that be from like how detailed we monitor workload to
56:14
how we, you know, train guys from a, a velocity based lifting
56:17
system in the weight room. There's a lot of things we do to
56:20
like kind of optimize training on that end to and, and Flex Pro
56:24
was definitely one of those that we tired of like kind of a
56:26
mainstay within the program to be able to do kind of both those
56:29
things have like keep guys healthy and maximize
56:31
performance. So we've been extremely happy
56:33
with with our relationship with you guys and and obviously we'll
56:35
love to continue using the product and and seeing the
56:38
benefits from it. Well, I appreciate that.
56:40
But since you brought it up, we will dig deeper one more time.
56:44
So I guess thanks for opening the door.
56:46
I don't know, maybe, maybe you'll regret this ever so
56:49
slightly before we record for however much longer this takes.
56:52
But you brought up increasing performance versus the injury
56:56
prevention side. That is a classic problem that
56:59
exists on our side. It's very difficult to sell
57:03
prevention, but let's face it, prevention isn't sexy, but
57:06
performance very much is, whether it is Flexpro or really
57:10
any technology. Even if the underlying factor in
57:15
making a decision is trying to keep guys healthier, how do you
57:19
package something or how do you present it with the performance
57:24
kind of in the forefront so players get excited about it,
57:28
with the added benefit on the back end of knowing if an
57:31
athlete does this, they're going to be healthier.
57:34
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think we look at arm care as
57:37
increasing performance, not just feeling better.
57:40
So you know, I think that's a big part too of like you are
57:42
going to like one from like, from a mental standpoint of like
57:45
when you feel like your body is in a better spot and you feel
57:49
more, more bulletproof, you could say like you are going to
57:52
perform better. So I think that's a big part of
57:54
like just from a mentality standpoint of like you feel like
57:57
the more work that you do and the more areas or the low
58:00
hanging fruit that you kind of take off of your plate of like
58:03
whether it's arm care, whether it's workload monitoring, which
58:06
is like a huge part for us is the workload side.
58:09
You know, you have like the strength in the muscle, the UCL,
58:11
you're doing all these things I've termed armor heat, arm
58:14
care, dinometer testing, grip strength testing and velocity
58:17
based movement training in the weight room.
58:19
Like you're doing all of those things to like not only to like
58:22
optimize your training, but like optimizing your training is both
58:25
going to keep you healthier and it's also going to maximize
58:28
performance. Because at the end of the day,
58:30
if you're not able to to move the way you want and to to
58:34
perform the way you want you, you're not you're not going to
58:36
be the player that you want to be on the field.
58:37
So that's it. That's a really big part.
58:39
I mean, I think guys buy into that for sure of like that, you
58:42
know, being healthier is a component, but like not just
58:45
being healthier, but like can we like go past the point of being
58:48
healthy to then like transit, Like we're optimizing
58:51
performance. We, we have a potentially a less
58:53
risk of injury training like this, but we also have a the
58:56
added benefit of being able to, to perform at a even higher
58:59
level if we do that. So yeah, we're we're definitely
59:02
targeting both of those things for sure on a daily basis.
59:05
If I can make the link, this kind of sounds very similar to
59:08
what we discussed earlier with Velocity in a throwing program
59:14
actually being very free in the sense that if you know you are
59:19
checking that box and taking care of the measurement or or
59:24
the thing that's actually being tracked, you then can open the
59:28
door for performance mentally. Like I know I have done every
59:32
single thing I need to do and because of that I can go pedal
59:38
to the metal with No Fear or this clear mind that I'm going
59:46
to be good. I've done every single thing in
59:48
my power to be as good as I can be and because of that, outputs
59:54
become easier to achieve. Or on the other side, beyond
59:58
just the being mentally free, Let's face it, if you're doing
1:00:02
the right things. Not only are you going to be
1:00:04
mentally free, you have probably also trained for certain
1:00:08
adaptations that are actually going to allow you to produce or
1:00:13
handle forces better anyways. So whether it is actually giving
1:00:17
you the mental freedom to be as good as you can be, or tapping
1:00:22
into something that you maybe have never trained or looked at
1:00:26
before that is now actually optimized your force output,
1:00:30
Yeah, seems kind of like a win win to me.
1:00:33
Yeah. I think if it's like like a guy
1:00:35
going into AV low cycle for us of like we're looking at data
1:00:39
from from arm care, which is like dynamic testing ERIR
1:00:43
strength in the shoulder. We're looking at Flex program
1:00:45
data. We're looking at pulse workload
1:00:47
data. We're working at we're looking
1:00:48
at new force ground force data. We're looking at bio mechanics
1:00:51
data. We're looking at your jumps in
1:00:53
your force output in the weight room.
1:00:55
All of those things go into deciding like Are you ready to
1:00:59
like do that velocity program? Let's just say.
1:01:02
So like if we check all of those boxes and we continue to have
1:01:06
those KPI's along the way of your training of like how things
1:01:09
are going, we feel like you're in a really good spot and we're
1:01:12
not going to put you in that situation before you're in that
1:01:15
good spot. And then we kind of have checks
1:01:17
throughout the cycle on all of those things of like where are
1:01:21
we training? A actually this was a little bit
1:01:24
off today or, or like we need to maybe adjust this.
1:01:26
Hey, do we take a minor D load and then go back into another on
1:01:29
ramp? Like there's, there's a lot of
1:01:31
checks and balances kind of with all those different tools and
1:01:34
resources that can just help paint a more clear objective
1:01:37
picture that I think it gives you like the ability to like,
1:01:41
OK, I feel good about about doing this again, things are
1:01:44
always going to happen. That's just the nature of the
1:01:46
game. Like we're trying to, you know,
1:01:48
we're trying to throw a 5 oz ball 100 miles an hour.
1:01:50
So like there's going to be things that like unexplained
1:01:53
things that that can happen. But like at the end of the day,
1:01:56
and we're using all of those feedback tools to make the best
1:01:58
decision we can for the athlete. And as I said, that's all we can
1:02:01
ask as long as you're using those of their fullest
1:02:03
capability. Well, I would say we are now at
1:02:06
a point where we've probably hit everything we can in in about an
1:02:10
hour, probably a little bit longer.
1:02:12
So I appreciate you opening up that that new line of
1:02:15
conversation. Of course I can talk about arm
1:02:17
care all day and I'm sure you right do.
1:02:20
But we're probably good for the moment, like I said, until I
1:02:23
force you to come back on next off.
1:02:25
Yeah, yeah. Or this summer.
1:02:26
So maybe after a Big 10 championship, I I guess I have
1:02:30
to be careful how hard I claim that.
1:02:31
So, you know, we do work with another Big 10 school as well.
1:02:34
So of course I want both of you to meet in right Big 10 title
1:02:37
game. And.
1:02:38
You guys to play 36 innings and then be like, you know what tie
1:02:42
both of you have #1 scenes going to Omaha.
1:02:44
But yes, Denton, thank you so much for joining me today.
1:02:48
This was an awesome conversation.
1:02:50
I appreciate you going a mile deep on some of those topics
1:02:54
because I think we wore out fluid dynamics, ball flight, and
1:02:58
Arsenal design just about as much as we could.
1:03:00
Thanks again. Thanks again, man.
1:03:02
And of course, to everyone out there, thanks for laying back
1:03:05
with us.