Latest / The You Project / #1601 Why Fructose Is Worse Than Table Sugar - David Gillespie

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#1601 Why Fructose Is Worse Than Table Sugar - David Gillespie · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I tell him, it's it's mayhem here before the before
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Speaker 1: the go buttoners pressed, it's complete mayhem. But now we
0:07
Speaker 1: get ourselves back in order, we straighten up a little bit,
0:11
Speaker 1: We sit straighter at our desk. Tivity and Cook is
0:14
Speaker 1: much to David Gillespie's sheer delight tivity. An Cook is
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Speaker 1: joining us live. It's not a post production editing scenario.
0:23
Speaker 1: You're here in real time.
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Speaker 2: Real time.
0:26
Speaker 3: And if I add the preamble to the show, I
0:30
Speaker 3: won't have a job. So that's disappointing.
0:32
Speaker 1: Well, if you, yeah, if any of us do, we
0:35
Speaker 1: won't have a job. Because we were sharing a few
0:37
Speaker 1: thoughts on a few things, it probably better that we
0:39
Speaker 1: don't share on a potty. Maybe one day when it's
0:43
Speaker 1: like there's only a week of the world left to live,
0:46
Speaker 1: maybe when you know we're spinning out of control as
0:50
Speaker 1: a planet heading towards some kind of devastating destruction, we'll
0:54
Speaker 1: talk about it. But tonight it sounds like the now
0:56
Speaker 1: has to me, Hi, David, are you good?
1:01
Speaker 2: Good to be here?
1:02
Speaker 1: I sent and I'm not going to say what it
1:04
Speaker 1: is everyone, but I said, I said, I had an idea,
1:07
Speaker 1: and I sent it to David yesterday maybe we'd talk
1:10
Speaker 1: about this, And then after I sent it, I went, no,
1:12
Speaker 1: we're not talking about that. And then we just jumped
1:14
Speaker 1: on before and he goes, you know that thing you
1:16
Speaker 1: sent No, I went yeah, he goes, we're not talking
1:18
Speaker 1: about that. I went correct. So I'll tell you what
1:21
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about, which you and I
1:23
Speaker 1: haven't spoken about for a long time. Just because well
1:29
Speaker 1: just actually really because I had a conversation, quite a
1:32
Speaker 1: long conversation this morning with somebody about this, and that
1:37
Speaker 1: is I just wanted to revisit the sugar conversation because
1:42
Speaker 1: I want to see. So you wrote Sweet Poison in
1:44
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight.
1:46
Speaker 4: Yep, so I wrote it in two thousand and seven, right,
1:50
Speaker 4: My publishers finally got around of putting it out in
1:53
Speaker 4: two that.
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Speaker 1: So the publisher fucked around for a year, and you
1:58
Speaker 1: wrote it in two thousand and Evan, So that is
2:02
Speaker 1: seventeen year geez, that's a long time ago. So seventeen
2:05
Speaker 1: years ago you were speaking about the you know, the
2:10
Speaker 1: low sugar, reduced sugar, fuck off sugar gospel. You were
2:14
Speaker 1: evangelizing the world. What's the how have we gone over
2:18
Speaker 1: the last well since publication how have we gone over
2:21
Speaker 1: the last sixteen years? Are we eating less sugar? Is
2:25
Speaker 1: it just been I just I just googled how many
2:29
Speaker 1: different names for sugar are there and it came up
2:31
Speaker 1: sixty one sixty one different types of sugar. So is
2:37
Speaker 1: there just as much sugar being consumed or have we
2:41
Speaker 1: improved in some way or don't you know?
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Speaker 4: The answer is we don't know for sure. And the
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Speaker 4: reason for that is quite interesting because the sugar lobby
2:52
Speaker 4: has worked very, very hard to make sure that accurate
2:56
Speaker 4: statistics on sugar usage are not collected, both in the
3:00
Speaker 4: United States and in Australia. So the ABS the RAM
3:05
Speaker 4: Bureau Statistics discontinued its series on sugar consumption in nineteen
3:10
Speaker 4: ninety eight after some intense lobbying, and so we don't
3:16
Speaker 4: really know how much sugar Australians are consuming. There have
3:20
Speaker 4: been some intermittent surveys, and surveys, as you might guess
3:25
Speaker 4: in nutrition, mostly rubbish. And that's because, believe it or not,
3:31
Speaker 4: people don't tell the truth about how much sugar they're consuming.
3:36
Speaker 4: And even if they know how much sugar they're consuming,
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Speaker 4: they're still not.
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Speaker 2: Going to tell the truth about it.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, well, that reminds me of trying to get
3:45
Speaker 1: Australians sugar consumption statistics. I just brought that up trying
3:49
Speaker 1: to I mean, I know this is obvious, we'll come
3:52
Speaker 1: back to sugar in one second, but trying to find
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Speaker 1: statistics on how often people liely that's a thing.
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Speaker 4: Even the ABS acknowledges that in the stuff they do publish,
4:05
Speaker 4: and they say that look sugar. Well, not to sugar,
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Speaker 4: but any food intake survey data is very very unreliable,
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Speaker 4: and they've got all sorts of interesting statistics about how
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Speaker 4: very unreliable it is, so you really can't take them
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Speaker 4: too seriously.
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Speaker 2: You can do some.
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Speaker 4: Back of the envelope sort of stuff though, just by
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Speaker 4: looking at total consumption of goods sold that we're without
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Speaker 4: explicitly looking at sugar, not breaking it down to that,
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Speaker 4: but sort of looking at things like categories like breakfast, cereals,
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Speaker 4: soft drinks, things like that, So you can do a
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Speaker 4: little bit of backward calculation on that sort of thing.
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Speaker 4: And I think a conservative measure of it is that
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Speaker 4: the average Australian is putting away about forty t spoons
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Speaker 4: of sugar a day, which is a serious quantity of sugar.
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Speaker 2: But and most people.
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Speaker 4: Would say, well, you know, maybe Harps is doing that,
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Speaker 4: but I I'm not getting anywhere near forty tea spoons
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Speaker 4: of sugar. That's if you think about adding forty teaspoons
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Speaker 4: of sugar to your food, most peo would say, I
5:07
Speaker 4: don't add any You know, I threw the sugar pot
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Speaker 4: out years ago, And the reason for that is you
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Speaker 4: don't have to. I mean, you look at a breakfast cereal,
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Speaker 4: you know, like say Sultana brand or Neutral Grain or
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Speaker 4: something like that. It's going to be a quarter to
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Speaker 4: a third sugar. So you have one hundred grams of it.
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Speaker 4: There's you know, twenty five thirty grams of sugar straight away,
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Speaker 4: and you know, four grams per teaspoon. It's not hard
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Speaker 4: to get to forty tea spoons. In fact, if you
5:35
Speaker 4: do the masks on it and say, okay, I'm going
5:37
Speaker 4: to sit down to a heart foundation to prove breakfast
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Speaker 4: of Sultana brand and a glass of orange juice, and
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Speaker 4: you're at about twenty teaspoons of sugar before you push
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Speaker 4: back from that. So you don't have to go anywhere
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Speaker 4: near a mars bar or a coke. You're already at
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Speaker 4: half the average Australian consumption of sugar. And when you
5:54
Speaker 4: compare that to say, the early eighteen hundreds, before sugar
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Speaker 4: was able to be mass produced in commercial quantities, we
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Speaker 4: were consuming about two teaspoons per person per day and
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Speaker 4: that mostly came from honey and fresh fruit. Now we
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Speaker 4: haven't changed that much. We're still getting about two teaspoons
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Speaker 4: per person per day from honey and fresh fruit, and
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Speaker 4: we just lay it on an extra thirty eight in
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Speaker 4: sugar added into the food supply.
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Speaker 1: I remember a lady coming to see me years ago, David,
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Speaker 1: who told me she didn't have any sugar in her diet.
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Speaker 1: And she literally thought that she didn't because she didn't
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Speaker 1: add sugar to anything. And then so I sat down
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Speaker 1: with her. I had a one and a half hour
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Speaker 1: console with her, and I said, you know what she
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Speaker 1: ate in a typical day, you know, and what she drank,
6:43
Speaker 1: what she consumed in a typical day. And I can't
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Speaker 1: remember exactly, but yeah, it was somewhere around thirty tea spoons,
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Speaker 1: despite the fact that she had no sugar in inverted
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Speaker 1: commas in her diet. And she was like, she was
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Speaker 1: completely unaware.
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Speaker 2: You know, Well, most a lot of people are.
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Speaker 4: I mean, people will say to you, look, I understand
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Speaker 4: that there's sugar and coke, but you know I don't
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Speaker 4: drink coke. You so what do you drink? Oh, I
7:10
Speaker 4: have a nice coffee. Well there's more sugar in a
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Speaker 4: nice coffee than there isn't a coke. Yes, you know,
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Speaker 4: Australia's consumption of sugar in liquid form is actually highest
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Speaker 4: in dairy products, not not in soft drinks. Soft drinks
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Speaker 4: are actually in full sugar. Soft drinks are in serious trouble.
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Speaker 4: I mean there's a massive decline. So you know, I'm
7:29
Speaker 4: going to take credit for that. Since two thousand and seven,
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Speaker 4: there's been a massive decline in soft drink consumption, full sugar,
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Speaker 4: soft drink. And you can see that going to a supermarket.
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Speaker 4: You're not to a supermarket now, and the soft drink
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Speaker 4: aisle is still there, but there's an awful lot of
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Speaker 4: sugar free stuff there and very little of the full stuff.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean we've mentioned this once before at least,
7:51
Speaker 1: but people might be blown away to know that something
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Speaker 1: like barbecue sugar Peru barbecue sauce, I should say barbecue sugar.
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Speaker 1: That was faux pa wasn't it. Barbecue is the same thing. Well,
8:04
Speaker 1: it's about fifty two grams per hundred grams. So for say,
8:09
Speaker 1: you know, let's say you've got a two hundred mill cup,
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Speaker 1: so you've got two hundred grams of that source. Then
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Speaker 1: of that about well more than half of the cup
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Speaker 1: is sugar. So I mean things like that where people
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Speaker 1: think it's essentially even peanut butter, which you think, oh,
8:26
Speaker 1: that's nuts and it's salty, but most peanut butters are
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Speaker 1: somewhere between ten and twenty percent sugar because it's got
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Speaker 1: added sugar. Not all of them are course jams. You go,
8:36
Speaker 1: oh yeah, but jams fruit, But it's still incredibly high.
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Speaker 1: And some of those I won't name names because I
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Speaker 1: don't want it. Well I should name names because they
8:45
Speaker 1: can't sue me because it's just fucking information. It's not
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Speaker 1: an opinion. But a lot of those smoothie bars and
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Speaker 1: those you know kind of juice kind of bar places
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Speaker 1: that sell you know, these mega energy drinks and stuff
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Speaker 1: which you know them, have got heading towards one hundred
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Speaker 1: grams of sugar in one of their large servings, which
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Speaker 1: is twenty or twenty something teaspoons.
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Speaker 4: There's no functional difference between a glass of apple juice
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Speaker 4: and a glass of coke. They both have about the
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Speaker 4: same amount of sugar in them, so one has bubbles
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Speaker 4: in it and the other doesn't.
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Speaker 2: But that's about it.
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Speaker 4: So anyone who tells you that a juice of any
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Speaker 4: kind is any kind of health food is delusional if
9:32
Speaker 4: they believe it. But you know, and the manufacturers have
9:36
Speaker 4: been onto this for a long time. So you know,
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Speaker 4: yogurt produces, for example, you have to put sugar in
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Speaker 4: yogurt to make it palatable to someone who's used to
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Speaker 4: eating sugar. And pretty quickly people got onto the fact
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Speaker 4: that there was more sugar in the average yogurt than
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Speaker 4: in a bowl of ice cream, and so, but it
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Speaker 4: was being sold as health food. So the manufacturers started saying, ah,
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Speaker 4: we'll put a label on it that says no cane
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Speaker 4: sugar in this yogurt, and there isn't because they're using
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Speaker 4: concentrated fruit juice instead, which is still for it doesn't
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Speaker 4: matter whether the sugar got squeezed out of a piece
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Speaker 4: of sugar cane or got squeezed out of an apple
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Speaker 4: or an orange.
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Speaker 2: It's still sugar.
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Speaker 1: So whether or not we look like. I guess some
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Speaker 1: of the more common ones or forms, you know, fructose
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Speaker 1: or fructose, glucose, lactose, soucrose, which is just sugar in it.
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Speaker 1: Do they all have a very similar consequence in the body.
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Speaker 2: No.
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Speaker 4: No, And this is the interesting bit. The only one
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Speaker 4: of the ones you mentioned that's a problem is fructose.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to say that.
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Speaker 4: So the rest of them metabolized to glucose. And when
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Speaker 4: a sugar is metabolized to glucose, that's not a problem
10:54
Speaker 4: for us because evolution has set us up to have
10:57
Speaker 4: glucose as our primary source of energy. So we have
11:01
Speaker 4: enormously complex systems to manage our intake of glucose and
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Speaker 4: to manage our intake of anything that can be converted
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Speaker 4: to glucose because it's our primary energy source. So when
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Speaker 4: we've had enough of that, we stop eating. Because fructose
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Speaker 4: is relatively really rare in our environment, we don't do that.
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Speaker 4: We have no biochemical breaks on fructose. It's something that
11:24
Speaker 4: is metabolized immediately to fat in our liver and stored immediately.
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Speaker 4: It was a bonus in evolutionary times coming across a
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Speaker 4: piece of ripe fruit that could deliver you a fructose
11:37
Speaker 4: hit was a bonus. You didn't want your body shutting
11:39
Speaker 4: down your ability to consume it because you were going
11:41
Speaker 4: to get one shot.
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Speaker 2: At this thing.
11:44
Speaker 4: You wanted our eat as much of it as you
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Speaker 4: possibly could, and you wanted it stored as body fat
11:48
Speaker 4: as soon as possible. So we have no evolutionary controls
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Speaker 4: on fructose, but we have controls on every other sugar
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Speaker 4: we consume. And that's the trick. That's the problem with fructose.
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Speaker 4: If we've gone from an environment where it was really
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Speaker 4: really rare and a real advantage to have no control
12:06
Speaker 4: over it, to an environment where it's been added to
12:10
Speaker 4: every single part of our food supply because it's addictive
12:13
Speaker 4: as well, and food manufacturers know that food with sugar
12:17
Speaker 4: added sells a lot better than food without sugar, so
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Speaker 4: it's added into our entire food supply. So we've gone
12:24
Speaker 4: from an environment where we almost never encountered it, and
12:26
Speaker 4: when we did, it was it to our advantage to
12:29
Speaker 4: tear down on it, to an environment where it is
12:33
Speaker 4: in everything and it is subverting our appetite control system.
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Speaker 4: It is addictive, and it gets in and turns to
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Speaker 4: fat and then also destroys our ability to control how
12:46
Speaker 4: much of everything else we eat as well.
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Speaker 2: So the net result.
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Speaker 4: Of this is you put this stuff in the food
12:51
Speaker 4: supply of any animal in any lab or any human
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Speaker 4: in society, and they get fat. It's not magic, not
13:00
Speaker 4: woo woo. It's just plain biochemical fact.
13:05
Speaker 1: So are you are you anti fruit advocate, low fruit advocate?
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Speaker 2: What do you?
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Speaker 4: Well, you've got to think about your evolved environment. When
13:17
Speaker 4: do we have fruit? Fruit was nature's dessert. It was rare,
13:22
Speaker 4: and we had it whenever we could get it, but
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Speaker 4: that wasn't frequent. So my attitude to fruit is fruit
13:30
Speaker 4: should not be a primary part of your diet.
13:33
Speaker 2: If you get access to.
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Speaker 4: It every now and then and treat yourself, why not
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Speaker 4: treat it like what it is, nature's dessert. And by
13:40
Speaker 4: the way, when you stop eating sugar or fruit starts
13:43
Speaker 4: tasting very very sweet. And so when I say to you,
13:48
Speaker 4: treat it like nature's dessert, it'll feel like nature's dessert
13:51
Speaker 4: because it'll be just about the only intensely sweet thing
13:53
Speaker 4: you eat.
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Speaker 1: Is there such a thing as a sugar addiction or
13:58
Speaker 1: is that just a term? I know you're very dantic
14:02
Speaker 1: about addictions.
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Speaker 2: Very pantic about addiction it's a very real thing.
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Speaker 4: So we know that fractose spikes cortisol, which spikes don't
14:10
Speaker 4: mean which is the pathway you need for addiction. So
14:13
Speaker 4: it is a real chemical addiction. We have the word
14:16
Speaker 4: chocoholic in our language because chocolate is addictive. I don't
14:19
Speaker 4: know if you've eaten cocoa powder without sugar added to it,
14:22
Speaker 4: but it tastes roughly like dirt, So no one's getting
14:25
Speaker 4: addicted to that in a hurry. Put a ton of
14:28
Speaker 4: sugar in it, you've got a different proposition altogether. Yes,
14:32
Speaker 4: we're addicted to sugar. You can tell if you're addicted
14:36
Speaker 4: to sugar, like a lot of people say to me, ah,
14:37
Speaker 4: I'm not addicted to sugar. That's a lot of rubbish.
14:40
Speaker 4: But the test for that is, well, then don't consume
14:43
Speaker 4: it and see what happens. Like just don't consume stop
14:46
Speaker 4: for eating sugar and see what happens. And everybody who
14:49
Speaker 4: does that tells describes exactly the withdrawal pathway of anyone
14:54
Speaker 4: dropping any other addictive substance, which is that they go
14:58
Speaker 4: through a couple of weeks intense cravings and then they
15:02
Speaker 4: can walk away from it.
15:04
Speaker 1: And some of my friends have had headaches, like.
15:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, there are headaches associated with yeah yeah, yeah generally yeah.
15:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, and crankiness and tiredness and headaches. And I'm like, wow,
15:18
Speaker 1: you sound like you're coming off bloody heroin or something.
15:21
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not as bad as heroin, but it
15:24
Speaker 4: is breaking an addiction, just like any other addiction.
15:27
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
15:28
Speaker 4: When I first put Sweet Poison out, I was contacted
15:30
Speaker 4: by a bloke who ran one of the first sort
15:35
Speaker 4: of alcohol addiction centers in the Northern Territory, and he
15:40
Speaker 4: said that he found like he read Sweet Poison, and
15:42
Speaker 4: he got in touch with me. He said one of
15:44
Speaker 4: the things he found in running that center was that
15:46
Speaker 4: if you were going to try and break someone of
15:48
Speaker 4: alcohol addiction, the first thing you had to do was
15:50
Speaker 4: break them with the sugar addiction or you had no chance.
15:52
Speaker 4: So he would make them break sugar addiction for the
15:55
Speaker 4: first two weeks, then he would start on alcohol, and
15:58
Speaker 4: he said he was much more successful with that than
16:00
Speaker 4: if you just let them maintain the sugar addiction.
16:03
Speaker 1: It's so interesting. Tip do you reckon you're a sugar addict? Okay, okay,
16:10
Speaker 1: do you want any help with that? Or is you're
16:11
Speaker 1: just a happy sugar addict. A happy sugar addict.
16:15
Speaker 3: And I don't lie about how much sugar I eat, David,
16:18
Speaker 3: I'd tell all of the truth. I eat all of
16:21
Speaker 3: the sugar.
16:23
Speaker 1: But you do think because you have you ever Sorry, David,
16:26
Speaker 1: you have a real healthy diet. I do I do
16:29
Speaker 1: other than chocolate.
16:30
Speaker 3: Yes, yeap, which is still an addiction. But the rest
16:33
Speaker 3: of my diet is great. There's no silly sugars hiding in,
16:37
Speaker 3: you know, pretend not sweet food.
16:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're not having ninety nine percent fat free
16:42
Speaker 4: mayonnaise which is twenty percent sugar, or no, you're not
16:46
Speaker 4: having a barbecue.
16:47
Speaker 2: Sauce which is fifty two percent sugar. Definitely not.
16:51
Speaker 4: But the other thing to bear in mind too, and
16:54
Speaker 4: this is worth knowing if you've got a high energy lifestyle,
16:58
Speaker 4: so if you're doing something that requires significant amounts of energy,
17:02
Speaker 4: So if you're if you're burning you know, three three
17:05
Speaker 4: and a half thousand calories a day because we're either
17:07
Speaker 4: you know, doing intense labor, or you're working out a lot,
17:12
Speaker 4: or you know, doing marathon sports, et cetera like that,
17:17
Speaker 4: that people who are in that situation never get to
17:20
Speaker 4: a point where fractose accumulates to fat in the liver.
17:23
Speaker 4: Because the fractose actually helps them because it's metabolized instantly
17:29
Speaker 4: without any control. It's actually a very very fast way
17:32
Speaker 4: of delivering energy to the body. Now, this is a
17:36
Speaker 4: good thing if you are a marathon athlete. So a
17:40
Speaker 4: lot of them take you know, fractose gels and so on,
17:42
Speaker 4: and there's good science as to why that's a not
17:45
Speaker 4: bad for them and be actually a good source of
17:47
Speaker 4: energy for them. But it turns into a problem if
17:51
Speaker 4: you're not running marathons every day, So if you're not
17:56
Speaker 4: massively consuming calories and needing that extracts boost, then it's
18:02
Speaker 4: turning to fat in your body. So for ninety nine
18:04
Speaker 4: percent of the population it's a bad thing. But for
18:08
Speaker 4: people who are you know, ultra athletes who are pushing
18:11
Speaker 4: their bodies to the extreme, it's actually a good thing.
18:14
Speaker 1: That's why we see Tour de France riders, I mean,
18:17
Speaker 1: apart from their gels, they often have a banana, yeah
18:22
Speaker 1: or two, and we see a lot of yeah, like
18:24
Speaker 1: you said, endurance athletes runners writers Michael Phelps allegedly used
18:30
Speaker 1: to when he was in full training and winning whatever
18:33
Speaker 1: he won seventeen gold medals or something. Over his career
18:36
Speaker 1: averaged ten thousand calories a day.
18:40
Speaker 2: Well.
18:41
Speaker 4: And the problem for those athletes is that's great when
18:45
Speaker 4: they're doing it. It's when they stop doing it and
18:48
Speaker 4: then don't drop those habits so frequently. I mean, there's
18:52
Speaker 4: two more stories than you could poke a stick out
18:54
Speaker 4: of high performance athletes who put on huge amounts of
18:58
Speaker 4: weight once they were hire. And that's because they've spent
19:02
Speaker 4: their whole lives being able to consume anything they like
19:06
Speaker 4: and have zero ill effects, and then suddenly they haven't.
19:11
Speaker 4: They don't know how to eat to avoid that.
19:14
Speaker 1: And neither of you two think of a very well
19:20
Speaker 1: he's not well. He was a very well known athlete
19:23
Speaker 1: to me and my homies. He retired from a particular sport,
19:28
Speaker 1: professional sport. He blew out to him obviously self described fatty,
19:34
Speaker 1: got hit. Don't get mad at me. That's what he's
19:36
Speaker 1: called himself. He got huge, he put on about forty kilos,
19:39
Speaker 1: retired from the sport. In fact, I can think of
19:42
Speaker 1: two ones. An Olympic swimmer, but this guy retired from
19:46
Speaker 1: the sport, then hated his life, felt like shit, started training,
19:51
Speaker 1: lost all the weight and came back and became world champion.
19:55
Speaker 2: Wow.
19:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, so his name is Mark Okalupo. Yeah, yeah, world
19:59
Speaker 1: chi champion. And also I think Jeff Fhugel the swimmer,
20:03
Speaker 1: put on.
20:04
Speaker 2: About a swimmer that was all he was thinking of.
20:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he put on about forty k's as well.
20:10
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you're right David. Like, it's that
20:13
Speaker 1: there is a big I mean, and not just with
20:15
Speaker 1: sugar and food, but psychological emotional adjustment for athletes when
20:20
Speaker 1: they have to live in this this operating, very specific
20:24
Speaker 1: operating system, high intensity. It's all about sleep and energy
20:28
Speaker 1: and recovery and intake and micros and macros and training
20:32
Speaker 1: cycles and periodization. And now you don't do that anymore.
20:36
Speaker 1: But you've been eating a certain way for fifteen or
20:38
Speaker 1: twenty years, right.
20:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you've also been able to obtain a benefit from, say,
20:45
Speaker 4: sucking down a front coast shell, and it's been an
20:48
Speaker 4: important part of your regime. And unless you're really clued
20:53
Speaker 4: into the biochemistry, you wouldn't understand that that's much much
20:58
Speaker 4: more than the galleries it says on the packet. You know,
21:01
Speaker 4: if you just take a lightweight view of nutrition and
21:04
Speaker 4: just look at calories, rather than what they are. Then
21:09
Speaker 4: that can be really dangerous because fractose calories are not
21:12
Speaker 4: the same as glucose calories, just the same as alcohol
21:16
Speaker 4: calories are not the same as glucose calories. If you
21:20
Speaker 4: just go by the calories, you're being seriously misled about
21:23
Speaker 4: what your bo he's doing with the substance.
21:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, not all calories are equal. Speaking of athletes, TOI,
21:29
Speaker 1: F you're the athlete on the show, when you fight,
21:34
Speaker 1: you do you have to suck down to a weight
21:38
Speaker 1: or have you had to?
21:39
Speaker 3: I generally didn't have to worry about that a lot.
21:43
Speaker 3: I sat at Wayne my last fight. I was close,
21:47
Speaker 3: very close to the weight, so I had to make
21:48
Speaker 3: sure I came in under to Wayne. But I never
21:50
Speaker 3: had to drop I never really had to drop weight
21:52
Speaker 3: to fight.
21:53
Speaker 1: I saw a photo of you the other day, or
21:55
Speaker 1: two side by side photos, because we know how shy
21:58
Speaker 1: you are about putting out pictures of yourself. But if
22:00
Speaker 1: I was jacked, i'd probably do the same. But they
22:04
Speaker 1: were side by side photos, and I can't remember, but
22:07
Speaker 1: one was like maybe fifty four or five kilos and
22:10
Speaker 1: one was sixty two or something.
22:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there was eight kilos different fifty fifty six,
22:16
Speaker 3: fifty four or fifty six.
22:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was like a lot of weight difference a
22:22
Speaker 1: on a relatively small body, but you were pretty much
22:26
Speaker 1: just as lean in both of them. Like one of
22:28
Speaker 1: them you looked like, with respect the hulk compared to
22:31
Speaker 1: the Compared to the other one, you looked almost like
22:35
Speaker 1: a bodybuilder, and then the other one you look like
22:37
Speaker 1: an endurance athlete. Did that? Did that shock you when
22:41
Speaker 1: you saw those side by side photos?
22:43
Speaker 3: It did?
22:43
Speaker 2: It did?
22:44
Speaker 3: That's what spurred me to put it up because I
22:46
Speaker 3: remember doing it years ago when I was not ripped,
22:49
Speaker 3: when I'd had time off, and I was just and
22:52
Speaker 3: I might have put a couple of kilos on, but
22:53
Speaker 3: I was similar and or actually I think I didn't
22:57
Speaker 3: put weight on. I just changed body compositions. That was
22:59
Speaker 3: exactly We're the same weight, but one was ripped and
23:02
Speaker 3: lean and one was just normal. And I just think
23:05
Speaker 3: it's fascinating because everyone's obsessed with the scales.
23:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean that's that's a problem in itself,
23:12
Speaker 1: isn't it, Especially when you know, like I can get
23:14
Speaker 1: on the scales in the morning at eighty four, drink
23:17
Speaker 1: a liter of water, and literally thirty seconds later on eighty.
23:19
Speaker 2: Five, well what is a leader of water way?
23:24
Speaker 1: Exactly? That's what I'm saying. Well, that was my point, David.
23:27
Speaker 1: It's like, oh.
23:28
Speaker 4: Good, I'm glad, yeah, glad, I'm keeping up with you now.
23:33
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. You're the tipsy athlete, You're the journeus.
23:36
Speaker 1: Fucking keep up, will you. I was going to say
23:38
Speaker 1: to you, I was reading somewhere with your book that
23:45
Speaker 1: they were promoting it. David Gillespie lost six Stone. I'm like, well,
23:50
Speaker 1: this must be the British public version.
23:53
Speaker 2: I didn't know what that was either.
23:54
Speaker 1: I'm like six Stone, who wrote this?
23:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so that it was released in Britain as well.
24:00
Speaker 4: So this book, which I thought wasn't controversial at all,
24:06
Speaker 4: you know, saying you know what, maybe it's not a
24:09
Speaker 4: good idea to eat sugar. And the only reason I'd
24:12
Speaker 4: written it is because I grew up in a time
24:14
Speaker 4: when you know, ninety nine percent fat free marshmallows were
24:18
Speaker 4: health food really, you know, because there was no fat
24:21
Speaker 4: in them, so they were good. And it had just
24:25
Speaker 4: become a revelation to me that maybe sugar wasn't a
24:27
Speaker 4: good idea. And then I saw the biochemistry that said
24:29
Speaker 4: it definitely wasn't a good idea, and so decided not
24:32
Speaker 4: to eat it, and you know, I lost forty kilos.
24:35
Speaker 4: But the thing about it was, I thought, well, this
24:39
Speaker 4: is a relatively uncontroversial, fairly obvious.
24:41
Speaker 2: Thing to say.
24:42
Speaker 4: And the book came out and the publisher pretty much
24:45
Speaker 4: agreed with me, and they thought, you know, this is
24:46
Speaker 4: going to be boring as and it's going to sell
24:48
Speaker 4: about three copies. And then everyone started jumping all over
24:54
Speaker 4: it and taking shots at me, you know, the like
24:56
Speaker 4: Heart Foundation and the Dietitians Association and of course any
25:01
Speaker 4: which made me suspect that perhaps so on the take
25:03
Speaker 4: from the sugar industry not how dare I suggest that?
25:07
Speaker 1: But it just.
25:11
Speaker 4: It astounded me, the controversy that it caused. And how
25:15
Speaker 4: dare you say that sugar makes people fat? And I thought, well,
25:18
Speaker 4: I thought that was obvious.
25:19
Speaker 1: And how dare you be scientific and analytical and research based?
25:24
Speaker 1: This is this is what I found before it's in
25:26
Speaker 1: front of me, it says. Sweet Poison, published in two
25:30
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, is widely credited with starting the current
25:33
Speaker 1: Australian wave of anti sugar sentiment. It's like how dare
25:41
Speaker 1: you start that waver sugar sentiment like you what are
25:46
Speaker 1: you doing?
25:47
Speaker 2: I mean profits left right? All right?
25:50
Speaker 1: Before we go just quickly Olympics thoughts, what's what's taken your.
25:56
Speaker 4: I thought that, well, I almost tried to find three
26:00
Speaker 4: seconds of preparation I do before it's talking to you, Craig.
26:03
Speaker 2: I tried to.
26:05
Speaker 4: Find an article that i'd briefly seen the other day
26:09
Speaker 4: about I think it was Dean Boxell saying that he
26:12
Speaker 4: wanted his swimmers off the social media during the Olympics,
26:16
Speaker 4: and I thought, you know, that makes sense because it
26:21
Speaker 4: isn't as obvious as it at first appears as to
26:25
Speaker 4: why that's a good idea. But I thought, maybe just
26:28
Speaker 4: explain a bit about why it's a good idea. The
26:32
Speaker 4: thing about social media, and this is I think I've
26:34
Speaker 4: told you before.
26:35
Speaker 2: I was brought down.
26:37
Speaker 4: By one of the NRL clubs to talk to their
26:40
Speaker 4: players about this as well. The thing about playing players
26:44
Speaker 4: on social media is it's not just the distraction thing
26:47
Speaker 4: and that they're looking at their phones rather than getting
26:50
Speaker 4: on with their teammates and so on. There's actually some
26:53
Speaker 4: much more insidious things occurring there, which is social media rewards.
26:59
Speaker 4: People with cotocin hits for their own personal endeavors. So
27:05
Speaker 4: the rewards from social media are when you post something,
27:08
Speaker 4: you want to see the likes on whatever it is
27:10
Speaker 4: you've posted. You know, you want to see the views,
27:12
Speaker 4: You want to see the likes, you know, all that
27:13
Speaker 4: sort of thing. So if you're getting your oxytocin hits
27:16
Speaker 4: from that, and therefore your dopamine hits from that, what
27:19
Speaker 4: you're actually getting is your personal performance and your personal
27:27
Speaker 4: image is becomes the critical thing to you rather than
27:33
Speaker 4: the team and the team performance and your you know,
27:38
Speaker 4: all of that sort of thing, which which any athletic
27:41
Speaker 4: director wants. He wants the team working together, he wants
27:44
Speaker 4: everybody focused on everybody doing well, not individuals. The other
27:49
Speaker 4: aspect to it is that it seriously because, as we've
27:53
Speaker 4: talked about many many times before, getting all those dopamine hits,
27:57
Speaker 4: which is just the same as getting them from cocaine,
28:01
Speaker 4: it makes you anxious and makes you depressed and makes
28:06
Speaker 4: it hard for you to sleep, and those are all
28:09
Speaker 4: terrible things for an athlete, particularly the bit about not
28:13
Speaker 4: being able to sleep. So it takes the focus of
28:17
Speaker 4: the athlete away from the thing they're supposed to be
28:19
Speaker 4: focused on. It takes a mix master to their brain
28:23
Speaker 4: and it means they can't sleep. And so.
28:29
Speaker 2: It's a very very good.
28:30
Speaker 4: Point being made by the coach there to say get
28:33
Speaker 4: off the social media the whole time. Now people are saying, oh,
28:38
Speaker 4: that's because he doesn't want to see people bagging out
28:39
Speaker 4: his athletes, et cetera. Well, I'm sure that's part of it,
28:42
Speaker 4: but there are some deep biochemical reasons why it's a
28:45
Speaker 4: very good idea as well.
28:46
Speaker 1: Yes, and also, like I think from I mean obviously
28:51
Speaker 1: what you said, but also from a psychological and emotional
28:53
Speaker 1: point of view, when somebody looks for a number and
28:56
Speaker 1: the number is lower, you know, they want ten x
28:59
Speaker 1: and they get it two x response, but they had
29:02
Speaker 1: a ten x hope or expectation, and now they're disappointed,
29:06
Speaker 1: and now they're you know, now they're sad, or now
29:08
Speaker 1: they're anxious, or now they think, fuck, I need to
29:11
Speaker 1: do a better post. I need to I'm guilty of that,
29:14
Speaker 1: not too much these days, but I remember putting up
29:17
Speaker 1: things and not getting the response I thought it would get,
29:21
Speaker 1: and I've taken it down and put up something else,
29:24
Speaker 1: you know, and then I know, little social media junkie mate.
29:32
Speaker 1: It's always good to chat to you. I know you're
29:35
Speaker 1: one of the rare guests that I don't have to say.
29:38
Speaker 1: How do people find you, follow you, connect with you
29:40
Speaker 1: because you're not interested in any of that, because you
29:42
Speaker 1: actually don't like people.
29:44
Speaker 2: Oh that's not fair. I love you, I love talking
29:46
Speaker 2: to you.
29:49
Speaker 1: All Right, we'll say goodbye, affair, but as always we
29:52
Speaker 1: appreciate you.
29:53
Speaker 2: Thanks mate, See you later.