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Spy Game · The Spy-Fi Guys

• 0:00
  Speaker A: It's not how you play the game. It's how the game plays you. We are at the spy fi guys, and this is spy game. Hello, and welcome back to the spy fi guys, where we cover spy facts, spy fiction, and everything in between. I'm Zach.
• 0:20
  Speaker B: And I'm Christian.
• 0:21
  Speaker A: And today we are back with a more traditional spy fiction kind of movie after something so different with the Molly.
• 0:29
  Speaker B: McGuires last time, and I am pumped for this one. So, Zach, have you seen this movie before?
• 0:35
  Speaker A: You're pumped for it, Christian? Pumped?
• 0:37
  Speaker B: Yes, I am. Yes.
• 0:40
  Speaker A: I had not seen this movie before, to answer your question.
• 0:43
  Speaker B: I've seen this. I can't count how many times I've seen this, and I love it every time. I'm giving away my opinion on this already, but it's just.
• 0:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, why have you seen it so many times?
• 0:57
  Speaker B: I was going through a period of time where I think I was just watching a lot of. Seen all of mission apostles that came out at the time. I'd seen all of the James bonds that were out at that time, so I was looking for something more spy. Anything else that was spy. I, like, watched the Bourne identity. I watched. This was, like, early two thousands. So born identity was out, the recruit was out. This was out. And so I had no idea what it was about. All I knew was that it was, you know, Brad Pitt and his older doppelganger, Robert Redford.
• 1:27
  Speaker A: Hmm. That's right. Yeah. The movie came out in 2001, which is shocking because it feels so post 911. Spy movie is kind of amazing. I don't love the title. It's not the most boring title. The most boring title is spy, but this one's not a whole lot better.
• 1:43
  Speaker B: It's about what it, you know, the game of spying. The great game, as it was known in, you know, what? The Great War. Yeah. Or World War two. I don't remember which war. They called it the great game.
• 1:55
  Speaker A: All right, so, should we get started? We'll be curious to hear what you love about it, but I guess we can discuss that as we go forward.
• 2:00
  Speaker B: Oh, interesting. Are you giving away your opinions on it?
• 2:03
  Speaker A: Yeah, maybe slightly.
• 2:04
  Speaker B: Oh, boy. Is this gonna be one of those podcasts? Zach, I think it's up to you. Oh, boy. Yes. I mean. Cause I will. I will argue for this film. First of all, before we start, let's get our synopsis.
• 2:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. So, as always, we have our poetry synopsis before the official one. So here is our haiku. And spoilers begin from here on out. Stuck in chinese jail, a history of violence. Happy ending. What?
• 2:33
  Speaker B: Okay. All right. Interesting.
• 2:36
  Speaker A: And then here is my Limerick synopsis of spy game. There once was an agent named Murr, and for his country, he did procure a sniper named Tom and a lebanese bomb. But these days, he's more mature.
• 2:51
  Speaker B: I believe his name is pronounced Muir.
• 2:53
  Speaker A: Muir procure. Mature.
• 2:56
  Speaker B: I mean, you just pronounce it weird. It does work with Dirham, but, yeah, you just pronounce it weird.
• 3:01
  Speaker A: It's like, why do they name these characters? Why can't they just give them a normal name? They have to be difficult. I just don't get it. Anyway, and then here's the real IMDb plot summary. Retiring CIA agent Nathan Muir recalls his training of Tom bishop while working against agency politics to free him from his chinese captors.
• 3:22
  Speaker B: All right, so we start off with Tom Bishop, played by Brad Pitt, is trying to break into this chinese prison. They're there under cover of giving out vaccinations. We see Brad Pitt is about to plug something into a wall. You see him take some pills that are non specific, but they do something and put some gel on his hands. You catch that?
• 3:42
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 3:43
  Speaker B: And so he. And then he plugs the thing into the wall as, like, the chinese officials are shouting at him not to do that. And he gets. It looks like he gets electrocuted to death.
• 3:52
  Speaker A: That's right. And by the way, this takes place in 1991. For some reason, even though the movie was made in 2001, it's covering that.
• 3:59
  Speaker B: Sort of post Berlin wall fall of the Soviet Union. All right, what is this? What is the game of spying at this point? Do we even need spies? Yada, yada, yada. It looks like he's dead, but, yeah, the jail protected his hands, and the pill made him seem like he was dead, but he's actually alive. He puts in an earpiece, and he has seven minutes before the chinese prison guards. So, to get the breakers back online. Yeah.
• 4:26
  Speaker A: So they knock out the power twice to this prison over the course of the movement.
• 4:31
  Speaker B: So he's got, like, a map of the prison. Like a gum wrapper. I like that. Another prisoner, like, runs across him or something. Was he a prisoner or. Who was this guy?
• 4:41
  Speaker A: I think he has another prisoner, but.
• 4:43
  Speaker B: He gives him a stick of gum to keep him quiet. And then Bishop finds his target, a white woman in a chinese prison. Curious.
• 4:51
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I gotta say, they really blend in. He picked the right people for this mission.
• 4:58
  Speaker B: What she, you know, what's she doing there? And we find out the reason why. But also, too, it's his op of course he's gonna run it. At least his, you know, counterpart who's helping him is actually asian and doesn't stick out as much.
• 5:09
  Speaker A: It sounds like he let his emotions get in the way of his decision making.
• 5:13
  Speaker B: Also, like we find out later, it's not a sanctioned op. So who is he? How is he gonna get someone else to.
• 5:18
  Speaker A: He got his buddy to do it.
• 5:19
  Speaker B: It's at least a two man op. At least getting out of there. And as they're getting out, the lights come on. He hides on the table where he had been pronounced dead. And they have her on. There's a shelf right below it. So she hides under there, and they almost get out. They're, like, in the van on their way out. But then one of the lead guards, who I'm pretty sure this guy is also in die another day, the, like, lead prison guard from the Chinese. The chinese prison. I have to look it up because I need to know.
• 5:51
  Speaker A: He got typecast.
• 5:52
  Speaker B: Yes, he is in spy game. Same guy as chinese guard, as prison warden. And then in die another day, he's Mister Chang, who owns. Who's the hotel manager.
• 6:03
  Speaker A: There you go.
• 6:03
  Speaker B: The prison warden spots the prisoner with the gum and gets suspicious and has stops the van. And they're all surrounded by, like, a ton of chinese troops.
• 6:15
  Speaker A: So then I was confused about this part. Christian, did you explain to me, all right, a guy gets out of the ambulance and just walks away. Who was that? What happened?
• 6:22
  Speaker B: That was his cat.
• 6:23
  Speaker A: His other guy who went in with.
• 6:26
  Speaker B: Him, his assist on the opdev.
• 6:29
  Speaker A: Then who's the guy driving?
• 6:29
  Speaker B: Another guy.
• 6:30
  Speaker A: Another guy. And then they just let the other guy literally walk away.
• 6:34
  Speaker B: Well, he gets out, like, and quickly run, I think. I don't think he was in the van. I have to have to rewatch that part. But I think he was, you know, the van was driving away and then he was elsewhere. And he runs away when he sees the van, gets captured, because he's got a plan.
• 6:48
  Speaker A: Okay, well, the good news is that they're already in a prison, so we don't have too far to go.
• 6:52
  Speaker B: So we cut to Hong Kong, and someone is calling from Hong Kong, and they call Nathan Muir, played by Robert Redford, and tells him that he's got 25 minutes before he transmits the report to CIA. Gripping.
• 7:09
  Speaker A: Get to work drama.
• 7:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, apparently, it'll take him about 40 minutes to get to work from or to Langley, from wherever he lives. So where do we think he lives? Like, somewhere in Woodbridge.
• 7:20
  Speaker A: Well, it's also confusing because do you remember talking about this in the Jack Ryan episode.
• 7:25
  Speaker B: Yeah, because I see the Lincoln memorials. Does he live in DC? Come on.
• 7:29
  Speaker A: No, because he drives over the bridge past the Jefferson memorial into the city. And for those of you who know the local geography around here, that's not the right direction.
• 7:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, no one knows where, like, CIA headquarters is, apparently. Which is exactly what they want. Really?
• 7:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:47
  Speaker B: Except for the big signs along the highway. He calls Duncan back from his car and Duncan's like, what are you doing calling me from your car? Call me when you on a secure line.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. So car phones feature prominently in this movie. Right.
• 8:02
  Speaker B: It's more like cell phones, or phones in general are a lot.
• 8:06
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 8:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:06
  Speaker A: Well, so that's like having to do with it being a nice 91.
• 8:10
  Speaker B: So we see him drive into CIA headquarters. Well, not into drive to CIA headquarters. I didn't notice the seal and stars, but they are there.
• 8:19
  Speaker A: Yes. They look different from in other movies.
• 8:21
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker A: Maybe they changed it. Or maybe they built one of their own.
• 8:25
  Speaker B: I'm pretty sure it's that one.
• 8:26
  Speaker A: They built one of their own.
• 8:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a set. I don't think it's exterior is definitely the real headquarters, but I don't think interiors are. Once he badges in, we find out that apparently this is Muir's last day.
• 8:40
  Speaker A: Yes. And he's going to retire in the Bahamas. And I write in my notes, death flag. Big old death flag. I thought for sure he was going to die.
• 8:49
  Speaker B: For sure.
• 8:50
  Speaker A: The mentors always do.
• 8:51
  Speaker B: Well, yes, he is a mentor, but is this movie about Bishop, or is it about Muir, who's the main character?
• 8:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's the mentor, but he's also the main character at the same time. So that's kind of interesting.
• 9:02
  Speaker B: Talks to someone to get the cable. And this is what I like about this movie, because it shows what a large, especially if you're a case officer, what a large part of your day to day is. You're forming these relationships with people. You're talking a lot. And it's using these relationships to get what you need. Because that's what real, like, case officer work is. It is building those relationships.
• 9:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, they talk about that a lot in the movie about how Tom Bishop is really good at it.
• 9:32
  Speaker B: We find out that Tom Bishop has been imprisoned and we have. What is Parker's actual title? Maybe IMDb says, wikipedia says he is deputy director for operations.
• 9:46
  Speaker A: Oh, and it's a harker, according to IMDb. Not Harker.
• 9:49
  Speaker B: Parker. That's what I said.
• 9:50
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 9:51
  Speaker B: Chuck Harker is waiting for Bishop in his office. Not Bishop, Muir, in his office. And he's looking for all the files that Muir has on Bishop. And as. Because it's his last day, everything's packed up. So he's like, well, you know, take some time to dig him up. Too many white guys in this movie.
• 10:08
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's tough. I also love when they go to the meeting. They have the Star Trek. I thought that was hilarious. The people who made this movie have clearly never been in the government building. The idea that they would spend the money on Star Trek. Doors, that makes the sound and be like.
• 10:26
  Speaker B: Well, yeah. So Muir tells Harker that, yeah, I need some time to find them all. Can I reach out to you later? Reveals that, actually, Muir has out all these files in a secure vault. And also in that vault is an ad for an island in the Bahamas where he wants to buy a house.
• 10:45
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 10:45
  Speaker B: And as well as a plane ticket to leave.
• 10:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's ready to go. See, again, this is why I thought he was going to die, because he's, like, all set up.
• 10:53
  Speaker B: What's the inflation on that? $282,000.
• 10:57
  Speaker A: That's a lot. It's probably at least half a million by now.
• 10:59
  Speaker B: All right, should I save that for spyfact versus spy fiction? We can look it up. In the meantime. All right, I do want to know that, because I'm like, that doesn't seem like that much. But then. Oh, wait, 1991 money? Hmm.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: No.
• 11:11
  Speaker B: For his life savings, though.
• 11:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, they are underpaid over there.
• 11:16
  Speaker B: That's true. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about it when we get to the recruit. But they make a point about how. Yeah, CIA case officers don't get paid a lot. Muir puts the bishop files in a burn bag and gives it to a secretary, Gladys, who is very loyal to him.
• 11:32
  Speaker A: Aerial oil. You say that again.
• 11:34
  Speaker B: And, like, puts only a single sheet from the files into a new folder that he marks Tom Bishop, which is probably just like, his initial assessment.
• 11:44
  Speaker A: Right.
• 11:44
  Speaker B: Gives that file to Harker, and Parker's like, where's the rest of it? Is all. You know, it's here, there, everywhere. Lost. Unpacking.
• 11:52
  Speaker A: Okay, Christian, I'm going to ask this question. Now. What was going on with the higher ups?
• 11:57
  Speaker B: What do you mean?
• 11:57
  Speaker A: I like, what are. What are they doing? Are they trying to, like, cover up that Tom Bishop, like, never even existed?
• 12:03
  Speaker B: They're trying to burn him and say that he was never actually an officer of the CIA or that he was off the reservation.
• 12:10
  Speaker A: Yeah, but why not just leave him in the prison and let him die, then instead of, like, messing around with everything.
• 12:16
  Speaker B: Because if the Chinese reveal it, that they have this person, which they could. Now, okay, I'm assuming you didn't. Weren't paying attention to any of the news reports that were going on.
• 12:25
  Speaker A: I was, but a lot of that was because of Muir getting involved.
• 12:30
  Speaker B: Okay, so the Chinese are having this trade talks. That's the background of this president's going over, basically.
• 12:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Doesn't want anything to screw up these trade talks. And so if in the case of the Chinese revealing that there was a spy was breaking into a chinese prison before the trade talks happen, they have their out jazz, which is that he's a rogue agent and they can, and he's been, you know, off the reservation for a long time and he's not ours.
• 13:00
  Speaker A: Why do they need the files on him for that?
• 13:02
  Speaker B: If Congress asks, that's the whole thing, that they make a point about it in here. They say, are you? And we'll get to it in like 5 seconds. That, you know, the reason they're recording and transcribing is in case of a congressional hearing. Because, yes, they can deny all this stuff, but they need documentation because Congress is going to ask questions if any of this surveillance they're covering their asses is what they're doing.
• 13:26
  Speaker A: I see.
• 13:27
  Speaker B: As I said, we get to about 5 seconds. Muir is brought up into the conference room where there's a task force on Bishop. We've got the deputy director of central intelligence, Troy Folger, who comes in and they need Muir to fill in all the gaps about Bishop, who he disappeared a week ago from Hong Kong. And so, Bishop's or not Bishop Muir is trying to get the lay of the land, find out that the president has 24 hours to claim him. Okay, what if we leak it to the press? No, they don't want any press on this. And like I said they wanted, they're recording all of this and transcribing for potential congressional hearing.
• 14:01
  Speaker A: So I do like that there is a time lock that always helps, keeps. Keep things moving.
• 14:06
  Speaker B: 08:00 a.m. the next day. And so we get our sort of first flashback. They're talking about Bishop's recruitment or the first time that they methadore, which is in Vietnam in 1975.
• 14:17
  Speaker A: Yes. And I love the sepia tone, so that, you know, it's in the past. They put a sepia filter on the film and then the music was great. It wasn't fortunate, son, for a change. It was total Vietnam war. Like, vibe. So I appreciate that very much.
• 14:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. So Muir went in country to recruit a sniper to take out a target. But when he gets to the camp where he was gonna meet his sniper, finds out that that sniper got taken out by. Was it a mortar that earlier that day?
• 14:48
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 14:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. The sniper he was gonna use had 40 confirmed kills. But the next best who's there is three confirmed kills, and that happens to be Tom Bishop. And bishop and his, and his friend Tran, like, live separately from the other men because they cooked their own vietnamese food.
• 15:07
  Speaker A: And it smells people don't like.
• 15:09
  Speaker B: It smells great because vietnamese food is delicious. Muir meets Bishop and tells him they need him to take out a laotian general. And he accepts. Doesn't want to know any more details about him. So Bishop and Tran get in position to take the general out while Muir is back at headquarters, or at the base on the radio, right as he is about to, he has a clear shot. He's right about to take the shot. When a chopper comes into view and their position's in jeopardy, and it's also blocked the shot.
• 15:40
  Speaker A: Christian, do you think Call of Duty four, modern warfare ripped off this part?
• 15:45
  Speaker B: Maybe. I don't know. I've never played it.
• 15:47
  Speaker A: Oh, you missed out. It's a classic.
• 15:49
  Speaker B: I don't think I've played anything beyond.
• 15:50
  Speaker A: Like, yeah, four is great. It totally holds up. But there's a part where you have to crawl through Chernobyl, like, irradiated Chernobyl, to kill a general. And then a helicopter comes up. You have to shoot the guy in the helicopter and then run away, and people are shooting at you.
• 16:08
  Speaker B: It probably did rip this off then, if it came out after.
• 16:10
  Speaker A: I imagine so, yes.
• 16:11
  Speaker B: But, yeah. So Bishop is able to make that shot under fire, and they escape. And then his, his, his friend Tran gets hit, and. But Bishop gets, you know, carries him back. And I like the line here. Hell of an ad for the Boy scouts. Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker A: And they're leaving, and then they come back around. Mirror saves them life, dad.
• 16:32
  Speaker B: So back in the conference room, someone from the national Security Council asks if there was ever a presidential finding for the kill. So here they're really trying to dig into anything in Bishop's past that they can discredit him.
• 16:45
  Speaker A: That doesn't sound too hard.
• 16:47
  Speaker B: Muir. Pages. Gladys remember pages?
• 16:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, I do, actually. I never had one, but I remember them existing.
• 16:55
  Speaker B: And so he's talking with Gladys as men are tearing up the, you know, cleaned out office behind her, and she's. And as that's going on, Muir is overhearing the others talking about how to pin this all on bishop. It's a smear job.
• 17:11
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 17:12
  Speaker B: Muir, like, says, oh, I remember where the bishop files are. They're in my closet. And, like, Harker is trying to stop him from going down. And I like this line from him. He says, you have better things to do than tear up my office. Right?
• 17:25
  Speaker A: I. I think so. But then I have the line around your sim where he says it's about money.
• 17:29
  Speaker B: That's. A little bit later, okay, where Muir sees his office in a mess, and he tells Gladys to burn the files that are in the burn bag, that the agency is looking for a reason to let the kill, the Chinese kill Tom bishop. There. It's spelled out in the movie why they're doing.
• 17:44
  Speaker A: Sure, yes, I get that.
• 17:47
  Speaker B: Do you?
• 17:48
  Speaker A: I get it. But it's like, why is there a conspiracy? Are they keeping all a secret from each other?
• 17:54
  Speaker B: What do you mean? Who?
• 17:55
  Speaker A: Well, because, like, mirror and everybody else are, like, at odds.
• 17:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. Because Bishop or Muir doesn't want them to get Tom Bishop, get killed. And they do. That's the conflict.
• 18:08
  Speaker A: Well, yes. I don't understand why they don't. Just, like, they get the security to, like, send him home if they think it's a problem.
• 18:15
  Speaker B: They don't think he's going to be a problem. They think he's working in good faith.
• 18:18
  Speaker A: Maybe. My read of the movie, and I haven't seen it a million times like you have, but it seemed like they're suspicious of him, like, right away.
• 18:25
  Speaker B: Well, of course you're suspicious of him, because he. That's the agent he trained. But they also think he will actually let them know. Like, look, I mean, if he. They need him for any of the intel that he can provide, so they need to listen to whatever he's going to say.
• 18:38
  Speaker A: I find it implausible that. No. Muir trained Bishop, and he worked with him for apparently, like, 20 years, and then he gives him a file with, like, one little thing on it, and then they start tearing up his office. But, yeah. And they still think he's acting in good faith.
• 18:54
  Speaker B: I mean, okay, maybe they don't think he's acting in good faith, but they also need. He has them. He has all the information on all the cards, so they need him to tell him whatever they will.
• 19:02
  Speaker A: You can't just throw him in Guantanamo Bay.
• 19:05
  Speaker B: The one of your most senior agents who's been there a long time, you're gonna throw him in Guantanamo?
• 19:10
  Speaker A: They're more powerful than him, and he's.
• 19:11
  Speaker B: Also supposed to retire that. You really think, I mean, okay, that's one way to go about that. That is a ridiculous way to go about that. And also, that's not going to get the information in before they need it. They have a time lock, remember? They need it before 08:00 a.m. mira.
• 19:26
  Speaker A: Also has a time lock because he needs to be able to get.
• 19:29
  Speaker B: Yes. So they both have a time lock that they need to get all of this done.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: So it's interesting, the politicking I didn't care for as much as some of the other stuff.
• 19:38
  Speaker B: That's great. It's great stuff. It's cloak and dagger stuff.
• 19:42
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 19:43
  Speaker B: Where were we? Oh, Muir also asks Gladys for Digger Gibson's number, who I kept wanting to call him. Digger Harkness.
• 19:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. Captain Boomerang. For the comic book fans.
• 19:54
  Speaker B: The Muir goes into another office belonging to Andrew Unger and, you know, asks to use his secure line because they shut down his. So this is what I like. He's able to talk him his way into anything and then basically takes over Andrew Unger's office because he doesn't know. I'm sorry, it's classified. Do you mind?
• 20:14
  Speaker A: Right. So when does the line that it's about money show up?
• 20:18
  Speaker B: It was in the previous scene with. When he's talking to Gladys.
• 20:21
  Speaker A: Okay, so who's, who's in it for the money?
• 20:24
  Speaker B: The us president, because he's opening trade talks with China.
• 20:28
  Speaker A: I think you mean trade negotiations. Let's see. That's what this movie is really about.
• 20:35
  Speaker B: It's about money. What is the line you just have? It's about money.
• 20:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's it.
• 20:42
  Speaker B: Oh, that's, that's, that's only part of the line.
• 20:46
  Speaker A: Okay, well, it doesn't have a favorite line. It was like a way of explaining.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: What is us all about. Money. Free trade. Microchips. Toaster ovens.
• 20:55
  Speaker A: There you go.
• 20:56
  Speaker B: Harker tells Folger that Muir had a heads up, and he decides that he wants to track all calls going in and out of Muir's office. Meanwhile, Muir is calling Digger Gibson, who works at the Hong Kong Herald, and is telling him. Okay, can you put this on CNN? Basically? So we go back up to the conference room where there's another flashback that Muir did his research on Bishop. And Bishop leaves Vietnam with the rest of the american troops and is sent to Germany. And Muir has Bishop isolated and alienated, gives him menial duties with non english speech speaking personnel so that he's just grateful to hear an american voice when he does meet with Bishop Muir.
• 21:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, I did like this part. I thought it was very crafty.
• 21:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so eventually, like, when he thinks that Bishop can take no more, he makes his move, runs into Bishop at a train station with his second wife.
• 21:57
  Speaker A: That's right. Yeah, the wives, yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker B: And invites him over for Christmas. And when they're at seemingly a big Christmas party at Muir's place, he gives them the lowdown and recruits him. And then. This is probably my favorite part of the movie. Well, one of my favorite parts of the movie, where they basically start his tradecraft training the very next day. We get a nice montage. You see him in classes learning about radios, but then also doing field exercises. He's taught to evade a lie detector and also, like, you know, learn all these different things from your. Like, you know, basically assessing your sitting if you're in a room. You assess it, you view it, assess and dismiss it all without thinking.
• 22:40
  Speaker A: Some of these techniques that they do, we've talked about in previous episodes, like vengeance, the Munich training episode. They talk about how you sit in an airport lobby and just observe everything. And then a little bit later, a part I quite liked. One of my favorite parts is when he said, you have five minutes to get to a balcony in this building and wave at me from outside. That reminded me of the dirty tricks department. Do you remember the dirty tricks department where the guy bluffs his way into the factory?
• 23:06
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 23:08
  Speaker A: It was kind of like that.
• 23:09
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But also throughout all this, we see, really, the relationship building between Muir and Bishop. And we also see that bishop's trying to get any information about Muir out of him because. Yeah, Bishop. He knows everything about Bishop, but Bishop doesn't know much about Muir other than his name.
• 23:28
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 23:29
  Speaker B: We say, yeah, Bishop was a natural. He developed assets like, you could basically talk to someone who had just come over the wall and send them right back in the very next day.
• 23:39
  Speaker A: Yep. The spy on the Soviets.
• 23:42
  Speaker B: And I liked how we cut back to the conference room and, like, one of the other people is questioning. Right. You allow or. No, I think it was harkers, like, you allowed a contract agent, which is what bishop was, to develop agents or, you know, assets of his own, even though he's not a case officer.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: Yep. So, I mean, we know mirror doesn't play by the rules. There you go.
• 24:03
  Speaker B: He has his own set of rules, basically, and he. Well, so seemingly. And we don't have much history on him, but it's what it sounds like, is he was like one of the guys in the very beginning of the CIA.
• 24:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
• 24:19
  Speaker B: So he could sort of. Do, you know, back when it was like the Wild west, and he could then, you know, he could basically make up his own rules for how he wanted to run things. They want to talk next about Operation rodeo, the Cathcart affair. But Folger leaves to take a call, and I like how Muir spots an operation name in a reflection on the table. Operations sideshow.
• 24:42
  Speaker A: That's right. He's got his spy tricks, even at his old age.
• 24:47
  Speaker B: Harker is like, what? How did you come by this? Oh, you know, just tricks we pick up in the field. We go to our next flashback in Berlin. There's a mole in the embassy, and they thought it was the ambassador, but there was some information that was leaked when the ambassador was out of town, so they left it to Anne Cathcart. Now, we're never told who exactly she is. Is she the ambassador's wife? Is she a. Another, you know, functionary at the embassy? Who is she? But she somehow. She's just always at these embassy parties.
• 25:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, this part was a little hard to follow. Or it gets a little convoluted taking.
• 25:24
  Speaker B: Someone across the wall that night as a test. Looks like he's driving a trabant or something very similar, which would make sense. East Germany. And whereas, Muir is in, at the embassy, at a party, and Cathcart's flirting with him, trying to get information out of him. And she was like, you know, why don't we go upstairs somewhere? And he says, I'm sorry, unfortunately, I have to stay by the phone. And he's like, you're working on a Saturday night. Are you bringing someone across? And then she walks away. And so Bishop, as he picks up his, you know, the guy, he was supposed to be. Supposed to be taken across, but he has to make a phone call before driving across. So Bishop calls Muir, tells him, you know, and says, you know, we're coming home. And he says, throw out the bottle. They know.
• 26:11
  Speaker A: Yeah, I like this part, too. I thought it was good.
• 26:14
  Speaker B: And so Bishop has to. Is told that he has to drop his passenger. And he, like, takes some epic act to make him vomit to distract the Stasi. And then once they get back in the car, he basically has to pull the guy out of the car.
• 26:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I like this part. Some good emotion where the guy was like, if you leave me here, they're gonna kill me. I'm gonna kill him. A then bishop has to also, nice to see your old friend the Stassi again. Is good emotions. But I guess Bishop wasn't listening to Muir earlier when he told them, like, don't get emotionally attached, because he clearly did get emotionally attached.
• 26:50
  Speaker B: So Bishop does get across the border, and he meets Muir on a rooftop. And Muir basically rips into him, saying, don't ever question me again, and reveals that the guy who he was trying to bring a crush, Schmidt, was a setup, and then told the Stassi that he had someone that he could use.
• 27:07
  Speaker A: So everyone's a traitor.
• 27:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. And that the real mission wasn't getting Schmidt across. It was getting Cathcart and reveal. Revealing that she was the mole and then dealing with her.
• 27:18
  Speaker A: Somebody dealt with her.
• 27:19
  Speaker B: Well, yes, that's to be revealed. Lashorelay Bishop, of course, doesn't take this very well. He throws a chair off the rooftop.
• 27:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's like in another movie, there would be, like, a crashing sound, and then a cat goes, wow, this was a really good scene. I think the best scenes are between the two of them and mirrors a lot of, like, badass lines.
• 27:40
  Speaker B: Okay, so what did you find hard to follow there in this part? You just said, it's a little hard to follow.
• 27:47
  Speaker A: Before things were revealed, I was like, what's going on with Cathcart?
• 27:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:52
  Speaker A: And then I was able to figure it out eventually.
• 27:53
  Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's a pretty short scene, so it reveals itself pretty well. And they even spell it out in the beginning, saying that, you know, there's a mole and we need. It's. It's like the beginning of mission impossible one. You know, there's a mole. It's a mole hunt.
• 28:08
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 28:09
  Speaker B: Back in the conference room, it's revealed that Cathcart was found dead two months after she was defected. Beaten to death.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: So who do you think killed her? Question.
• 28:18
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 28:20
  Speaker A: Yeah, come on. Come on.
• 28:22
  Speaker B: So Bishop and Muir were both in Berlin when this happened. So it could have been either. Do you think it's bishop?
• 28:28
  Speaker A: Well, I think that's the implication. Or I guess it could be the Soviets.
• 28:33
  Speaker B: It could have been the Stasi, could have been anyone, really. But the way you're thinking is the way that the committee wants to pin it on Bishop. They, like he. One of them even says, you know, means an opportunity.
• 28:49
  Speaker A: Right.
• 28:49
  Speaker B: Or motive. An opportunity. Yeah. After he's asked that question, Muir asks why they're trying to burn Bishop. And we were told what Operation Sideshow was, and what it was is a bugging op to listen to government offices in China. And if this is. So, that's the other part of this thing, is that, that's what else is going on.
• 29:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:09
  Speaker B: Yeah. There's. They're worried that if they're, you know, reveal the spy of their spy breaking in, they'll also somehow connect him to Operation Sideshow. And that would be even worse for the trade talks. The wrinkle is that Bishop wasn't even on Sideshow.
• 29:28
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:29
  Speaker B: Finally, it's revealed that he's, he was arrested during a rescue attempt, which we, as the audience knew, but Muir did not.
• 29:36
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 29:36
  Speaker B: Told us. Rescue attempt. Muir starts to put the pieces of what's going on together. We see a few flashbacks for him, but they're flash forwards for us in the movie because we haven't seen that part yet. Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker A: Well, by the way, did you like the part with checkpoint Charlie earlier?
• 29:51
  Speaker B: I did, yeah. It's always. It's always fun to see. Although, was that actually checkpoint Charlie or just one of the other checkpoints?
• 29:58
  Speaker A: Well, it looked like it. And presumably, isn't Charlie the one that goes into the american sector? So.
• 30:04
  Speaker B: I don't know. Actually, that's a good point.
• 30:06
  Speaker A: I thought maybe you might be right.
• 30:08
  Speaker B: Folgers told to go see the news. Apparently, all of this has been leaked to the press, or at least the fact that there's this, you know, arrested, imprisoned CIA officer named Tom Bishop. Muir is like. Well, that kind of limits your options, huh? And leaves thinking that bishop was gonna be okay now, because now they have to claim him.
• 30:29
  Speaker A: Instead, they do something else.
• 30:31
  Speaker B: He goes back to his office and sees that Gladys has repacked his office. So, wow. She very loyal.
• 30:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, you can say that again.
• 30:42
  Speaker B: And Muir is about to turn in his. He's, like, right at the check checkpoint, about to turn in his keys, when he sees a news broadcast from, like, the security desk announcing that this story that was previously announced was a hoax and that Tom Bishop died 14 months ago. And right as he's about to turn, so he turns around and, and goes back to his office.
• 31:05
  Speaker A: A lot of going in and out of offices in this movie.
• 31:07
  Speaker B: So he goes back to his office and he asks Gladys to get some photos of the coastline of the prison near Suchau, and tells her not to use the phones in the office, and if she's going to make any calls. And Muir tells Harker that he knows what was going on and who Bishop was after. And Harker's like, yeah, well, we know, too. Yeah, but you don't know the whole story. Because not all of us in the op reports.
• 31:34
  Speaker A: Yep. See, he's acting suspicious again.
• 31:36
  Speaker B: Yeah. Goes into another office where he belonging to Kepler. Who I don't actually know what he does.
• 31:48
  Speaker A: You mean Muir goes into their office with Kepler?
• 31:50
  Speaker B: Muir goes into the office.
• 31:52
  Speaker A: So I think they said Kepler is like an opera.
• 31:56
  Speaker B: Is he operations some sort of operation? Well, presumably because he's got like this, you know, nice big wall. Wall of like, oh, where the, all the, like, american forces are near, near the prison, basically. So I like how Muir sort of tricks him into all of this. Says that someone, you know, they were ready to do the extraction mission for Bishop, but someone said that, someone his, in his department said there wasn't enough resources to do the op. And there's like. And is like asking for, you know, who's. Who's the air support nearby. And, you know, what, who's it, what can work from Operation Sideshow to get him out? And after all that, you know, Kepler gets tricked and say, oh, you know, Commander Wiley's outfit is in the Pingu Islands. Yeah.
• 32:44
  Speaker A: This whole operation into China is like totally ridiculous, but okay.
• 32:49
  Speaker B: But it's so good. Just, just, yeah, sure. Gladys calls Muir and says that basically there's all these photos of the prison, the collecting dusk, and says, okay, well, get me those. And get me intel on Commander Wily's outfits off the Pangu islands. And as he's carrying out all of this, Harker is following him and, like, finally, like, catches up to him and says, you know, we're going to need you up upstairs a bit longer.
• 33:21
  Speaker A: I was working around something.
• 33:22
  Speaker B: Yeah, our third and final flashback.
• 33:25
  Speaker A: And the long one.
• 33:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we find out what. Why, who bishop is after, and it's Elizabeth Hadley. Or, Hadley.
• 33:32
  Speaker A: Yes, Hadley. Yeah.
• 33:34
  Speaker B: This is in Beirut in 1985. They were both there to take out a target. Sheikh Salome.
• 33:43
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 33:43
  Speaker B: The trick is he needed to appear to die of natural causes. And so Bishop was sent in a few months early with the COVID as a photojournalist, and he found a way to get to the sheik, which was through Hadley, because Hadley worked with a refugee camp where the sheik's family doctor. Whose name I have forgotten.
• 34:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's all right. I do like how this movie, knowing a thing or two about the lebanese civil war, shows how many different factions there are.
• 34:16
  Speaker B: I think at one point, Muir calls out that it's like 17 different factions or something like that. Yeah.
• 34:20
  Speaker A: Yep, that's right. It was pretty wild time. They were in the middle of it.
• 34:24
  Speaker B: But, yeah, so Bishop worked with Hadley to get some supplies delivered to that. The camp where the doctor is, and also got a story on the doctor in the times. And that sort of greased the wheels for him to talk to the doctor. And we see that Muir arrives in Beirut, and we find also the sheik is coming early. So Muir and I like this, how Muir and Bishop go to get breakfast. They have to, like, cross a war zone to get to this good place, good restaurant. I mean, like.
• 34:57
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, literally run through gunfire.
• 35:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. When they're at breakfast, he gives Muir a birthday present. I like how, like, he says that Langley has seven different birthdays for Muir. All wrong. As are the KGB and Mossads. You know, birthdays for him.
• 35:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's like talk about ultra secrecy. And this was even before you used your birthday to get access to various things on the Internet as part of your profile.
• 35:24
  Speaker B: So he gives him the birthday present, is a nice flask, and there's like, well, how do you get something like this in Beirut? Well, I've got a new. There's a new racket operation. It was, you know, sent in the overnight diplomatic pouch from London. So it's called operation Dinner out.
• 35:40
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 35:41
  Speaker B: It's like dinner out. I remember that foreshadowing.
• 35:46
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 35:47
  Speaker B: So as they're eating breakfast, they spot the sheikh from the restaurant and surveil him. And Muir tells Bishop that Langley wants a backup plan in case theirs is not successful. And so he has to go talk to the lebanese militia, who are cowboys. And you know, they're not gonna. There's definitely. Bishop knows that they'll definitely, definitely be casualties.
• 36:12
  Speaker A: Like, yeah, I was like, the lebanese militia, but. Lebanese militia? Come on. It's like, where's your balls? They name the names of the other factions. Why don't you say the Falangists? You know you want to. You know you want to. Come on. Come on. He'll play something out of a video game. Okay, I'm done. Rant over.
• 36:33
  Speaker B: All right, so mirror meets with the doctor and reveals to the doctor that his parents were murdered by the sheik.
• 36:41
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 36:42
  Speaker B: Which I wondered, were they true, or is this a setup?
• 36:47
  Speaker A: I wouldn't be surprised.
• 36:49
  Speaker B: But at the same time, Muir also finds out about Bishop's relationship with Hadley. Hadley and Bishop are in a restaurant, and Seymour. So they invite him over. I like casino's. Get, you know, a double of your cheapest scotch for him. Yeah.
• 37:03
  Speaker A: This is another good scene. Like, another really good dialogue scene between the two of them.
• 37:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. And so we find out that Hadley works for an international aid organization, and Hadley and Muir have a bit of a tete a tete. Muir drops the bombshell that Hadley can't go home. Apparently, she, and also has connections to Hezbollah, which Bishop didn't know.
• 37:24
  Speaker A: Okay, so, Christian, is she a bad guy or not? Is she a spy or not?
• 37:30
  Speaker B: She's not a spy, but she's definitely connected. Yeah, I would say yeah. And, yeah. So we basically. I mean, we'll talk to about it in the very next scene. So we. Bishop, go. Didn't know that. Go, like, she left. Leaves the restaurant, and Bishop goes after and ask if she's. He's getting played. And so she reveals that she's a fixer. So she makes introductions between different factions, different people, all in the support of getting whatever money she can to her aid or organization.
• 38:03
  Speaker A: Uh huh.
• 38:04
  Speaker B: So she's not a spy. She's not necessarily a bad guy, but she is compromised, is how I put it.
• 38:12
  Speaker A: We want to talk about now. But they say that she can't return to the UK. That seems pretty bad.
• 38:17
  Speaker B: My next sentence. So she was with. She was involved with a human rights group in London that bombed a building which was supposed to be empty, but it wasn't, and that's why she can't go back to London. So, yeah, you know, she was with a radical movement.
• 38:32
  Speaker A: It's not total humanitarian. Yeah, no, not exactly.
• 38:36
  Speaker B: And so she reveals all of this to Bishop, and she just asks to start with Bishop's real name, which she will. He will not give her, because I think he's going by. I don't care. Terry.
• 38:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. You believe he's a Terry?
• 38:52
  Speaker B: I don't think so, but, yeah. So, back in the conference room, we find out that the bombing was not. Not. Wasn't just, you know, anyone killed in the building. The chinese premier's nephew was in that building when it got bombed. And so the Chinese are after her as well.
• 39:13
  Speaker A: Oh, boy. She really has a way with people.
• 39:17
  Speaker B: Have a meeting with the doctor where Bishop gives him a poison. That's to kill the sheikh, which would basically. If it touches the skin, he'll be dead within 48 hours.
• 39:27
  Speaker A: Yep. And the doctor's, like, flipping out.
• 39:30
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, he's. Is it hard to kill a man? Yeah.
• 39:35
  Speaker A: Not a good badass dialogue.
• 39:38
  Speaker B: And so the appointment is four days later, so you just got to wait. Bishop is supposed to be watching the doctor while Muir meets with the lebanese militia. But the night before, Bishop goes to see Hadley, tells her his real name. And so he's not with the doctor. Unless he brought along the doctors. All right, you can wait in that room while we. Yeah.
• 40:02
  Speaker A: No, I mean, he definitely screws up.
• 40:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So, the next morning, the sheikh. We find out the sheik wants the doctor to him within the hour. But he's not with bishop. He went to go help victims of a bombing with Hadley, and Bishop is on his way to get him. Muir calls the local operative who's watching the sheik, and sees that the sheik is packing up to go. But it could be ten minutes, could be an hour, they have no idea. So Muir.
• 40:33
  Speaker A: Oh, geez. Oh, geez.
• 40:34
  Speaker B: Makes the call and calls in the lebanese militia for the backup option, just as bishop, you know, is driving like a madman, crashing into things, even crashing into a whole, like, you know, station at a local market.
• 40:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, this part is very intense. Yeah, I like that.
• 40:58
  Speaker B: He manages to get the doctor there just in time. He sees the doctor cross the checkpoint just as the militia bomb squad sends first a motorcycle and then a truck into the compound.
• 41:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's what they call a vbied vehicle born improvised explosive device. Thanks.
• 41:18
  Speaker B: And it's an extensive explosion.
• 41:22
  Speaker A: And good building collapse. Did a good job with that.
• 41:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. But apparently the lebanese militia used enough Semtex to blow up half of Beirut. As hope, Muir says.
• 41:32
  Speaker A: Right. Very technical, I'm sure.
• 41:34
  Speaker B: And after that, Muir doesn't see Bishop until a week later, when they're scheduled to fly out. They go for a walk. Bishop says he wants out from under Muir. He's hooked up with another op. Muir goes home, but Bishop stays in Beirut. And he is going, working up the courage to go see Hadley, but finds her apartment empty and the dear John letter, you know, taped to the mirror.
• 42:00
  Speaker A: So, I admit they got me good with this part. I thought she was gone. I thought she was out. I mean, you did refuse to, uh. You know, things were all weird between them, so.
• 42:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. So Folger says he has to go brief the White House, so they'll wrap all of this up in the morning. Now, Muir sees the photos of the request, the intel about the. With the photos go into Folger, sort of, stack of papers, and follows Folger into his office and, like, talks to him, like, what are we doing here? Why? Why are we doing this? And is really just, isn't actually trying to get anywhere, but is it just trying to talk to him so he can distract him enough, and then leave his cigarettes on the desk, and then use that as a distraction to distract the assistant. So you can grab the photo files yeah.
• 42:55
  Speaker A: I was like, ooh, what's going on with the, uh, with the cigarettes?
• 42:59
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker A: What's he pulling here?
• 43:02
  Speaker B: So Muir is back in his office, and he sees the photos of the coastline of Su Chau. But he also sees that the photos of the Bahamas, where he wants to retire, the coastline looks very similar. So I like how this, so he switches the photos.
• 43:19
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 43:21
  Speaker B: And he puts the, you know, sends the photos of folder of photos of such ao back, but instead it has the photos of Bahamas. And he keeps the photo of Su Chau.
• 43:33
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 43:34
  Speaker B: So Harker figures out that Muir worked with Harry Duncan in Hong Kong, and he's starting to get suspicious. Muir has his broker liquidate everything in his holdings, which would be 282,000, and sends it all to a bank in grand Cayman.
• 43:51
  Speaker A: So, Christian, how did you feel about him giving everything up for his little protege?
• 43:57
  Speaker B: I like it because it's, you know, you said when you have someone make a grand statement in a movie, you know, back three, they're gonna break that rule.
• 44:07
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair.
• 44:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. So he had previously made, you know, if, you know, never risk yourself, risk your life or anything, or anything for it, for an asset. If Cook becomes that comes down between you and them, send flowers.
• 44:22
  Speaker A: Okay. So I guess my question is, do you feel like, did you buy it, that they were close? Yeah, close.
• 44:28
  Speaker B: I buy, I mean, because it's a mentor relationship. He sees them as, like, you know, the son that he never had. All that stuff.
• 44:36
  Speaker A: All right?
• 44:36
  Speaker B: But, like, I buy. Especially after, like, even, even though they had, you know, clearly their downs, he still cares about Bishop. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing all of this, like, even the beginning part. If he didn't care about Bishop, he wouldn't have done any of the stuff in the first half when he was trying to at least, you know, get them, forced them to, you know, declare that Bishop is one of theirs.
• 44:58
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 44:59
  Speaker B: He liquidates harker, finds out about the liquidation of all of Muir's assets, and he wants all calls to Hong Kong. In the building tract.
• 45:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 45:10
  Speaker B: So Muir calls Duncan to get in touch with his contact at a power company. He's putting together an operation while Harker is trying to play catch up. And Muir tells Duncan that actually, Bishop prepared this op, everything before he went in. And Tran, who was his guy during the Vietnam op, was actually on Operation Sideshow. So he already has a person inside.
• 45:35
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 45:36
  Speaker B: And all they really need is the blackout at the prison. And I like how Muir is, like, putting together all these documents typing them up and how he's faking the director's signature, using the, you know, signature from his, like, farewell lens.
• 45:52
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Get a little bit of forgery here.
• 45:56
  Speaker B: So Duncan is negotiating with the guy from the power company and wants 300,000 for it. But he says, okay, fine, I'll do it for 282. And I like how, like, you know, the chinese officials are watching Baywatch and they're, like, wanting Harry Duncan to get on the way. It's like, all right, fine, fine.
• 46:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, it's good. Like, yeah, really bringing up the intensity.
• 46:18
  Speaker B: Mm hmm. Muir ends up actually stay sleeping CIA overnight. He keeps getting these sort of visions of, you know, what bishop is going through, being tortured. He has, like, a dream about him getting shot in the head and wakes up in a cold sweat. And I like how he, you know, he gets, you know, he's dressed and he's going up to the elevator back to the conference room. And Gladys sees Muir in the elevator, and he gives her a code vote of, you know, or if my wife calls, tell her I want. I have to go upstairs. Go back upstairs.
• 46:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 46:52
  Speaker B: So, back in the conference room, Harker tries to accuse Muir of working against them from the start.
• 46:58
  Speaker A: Thank you. Finally, it finally occurs to him, yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious.
• 47:04
  Speaker B: Reveals that Duncan gave him a heads up and that now Duncan's gone missing with his 282,000 and then tries to point the finger at Digger Gibson. And, like, that's when Forge reveals that digger dig digger, is Mi Six's man in Hong Kong. And that his, you know, paper is a front and you cannot blow his cover.
• 47:24
  Speaker A: That's right. Wow. What a spy game. Yeah, just like the movie says.
• 47:29
  Speaker B: Harker says that there was intel, like, intel delivered to Folger's office of the, you know, with the photos from the coastline of such a. And Folgers. Like, I didn't order anything. And, yeah, they didn't say it was such a. They just said it was photos of photos. And they look at it and they said, is this china? And that's when he reveals that he's actually been using agency resources to take photos of the retirement property he's looking at in the Bahamas. And that it is, it was his life saving, so he wanted to be sure, especially with, like, coastal erosion.
• 48:05
  Speaker A: Well, I mean, he was lying about this, though, right?
• 48:08
  Speaker B: I mean, seemingly, because he had the photos already. So seemingly he wasn't. He was doing this.
• 48:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. Maybe the whole story doesn't add up, but we don't need to get into all the details.
• 48:19
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, we see that he had the photos of the coastline, like, already with his, like, pet stack of all, you know, the ad to buy the thing. And he shows them the ad of the place he was looking at.
• 48:32
  Speaker A: So there you go.
• 48:33
  Speaker B: So he's like, all right, sorry, you caught me.
• 48:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. But they can't really do anything about it.
• 48:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, because it's me. He's about to retire anyway, so that he, in their eyes, he's done. So what are you going to do, fire him again?
• 48:49
  Speaker A: Right.
• 48:49
  Speaker B: So Muir sort of continues the story and reveals that he brokered a deal with the chinese government and would get Hadley in exchange for a diplomat accused of espionage.
• 48:59
  Speaker A: Right. Another twist and turn.
• 49:01
  Speaker B: Yeah, you didn't see that coming?
• 49:03
  Speaker A: No issue at the end of there, somehow.
• 49:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. Sameer gets a call, says it's from his wife. And actually the call is from Commander Wiley and who's asking for authorization. And said. And tells Commander Wiley we're on for night dinner. So you're saying operation the dinner out is a go, sir? That's right. Dinner out as a go.
• 49:26
  Speaker A: Right. And we got some funny dialogue around that, too.
• 49:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. So we see some commandos leave and Commander Wiley's outfit in helicopters. And back in the conference room, it says that somehow Bishop figured out where Hadley was. Harker asks, if Muir knew about this beforehand, would he tell them?
• 49:45
  Speaker A: No, you know, he wouldn't. Clearly.
• 49:47
  Speaker B: Yeah. Commandos breakout Bishop and Hadley. And then.
• 49:51
  Speaker A: Well, with lots of shooting.
• 49:53
  Speaker B: Lots of shooting. Yeah.
• 49:54
  Speaker A: Lots of death. International incident.
• 49:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. I like how back in the conference room, like, harker is like, do we want to amend that or do we just let the statement lie? And they all just said, I guess we'll just go with it.
• 50:12
  Speaker A: Right?
• 50:13
  Speaker B: And Muir, you know, signs an NDA and is escorted from the building. And then this part I enjoy, like, the committee is like, trying to count how many wives he had. Like, he keeps bringing up all these different ex wives.
• 50:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, kind of like his birthday. You never know which of its true and which of it's not.
• 50:31
  Speaker B: Except one guy is looking through Mira's file and reveals that he was only married once. All the rest were cover wives, either agents or assets.
• 50:43
  Speaker A: That mostly explains it, I think.
• 50:45
  Speaker B: Yeah. In the helicopter, Bishop, who sees Hadley also being rescued, like, in different helicopters. And, like, you know, they see each other, acknowledge each other, smile. And then the helicopter pilot is reporting back to base saying that operation dinner out is accomplished. And Bishop hears this and knows it was Muir who rescued him, presumably.
• 51:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 51:11
  Speaker B: And back in the. In the conference room, Harker is, like, thinking, all right, if he's not married, who is Muir talking to all these times? And then Folger announces that there's been an incident in China.
• 51:24
  Speaker A: You get, like, a record scratch, like.
• 51:28
  Speaker B: Muir is, you know, in the garage, puts on his sunglasses and drives away from Langley for the last time as.
• 51:36
  Speaker A: This movie ends and directly into federal prison, if the movie made any sense. I can't believe we didn't have a last scene with the two of them.
• 51:46
  Speaker B: I'm okay.
• 51:46
  Speaker A: Come on, the movie's not that long. I thought that was kind of amazing that they didn't have that.
• 51:52
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 51:52
  Speaker A: Totally blue, bald.
• 51:54
  Speaker B: Alright, so what do we have for spy fact and spy fiction? Zach, do you want to go first?
• 51:58
  Speaker A: I have a couple of things. Okay, so a burn bag features prominently in the movie.
• 52:06
  Speaker B: Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
• 52:09
  Speaker A: This from Wikipedia. It's a security bag that holds sensitive or classified documents which are to be destroyed by fire or pulping, most commonly used by government institutions. And they are designed to facilitate the destructive process by not requiring them to be destroyed beforehand, by indicating if it requires special procedures. And then there's a picture on Wikipedia. It says a typical paper burn bag is used by the United States Department of Defense.
• 52:36
  Speaker B: And it's just like, just a paper bag. And it's like, got, like, red and white decor, like just stripes or something on it. They've got a few in the spy museum that I've seen. I've always been sort of dis. Like, when I first heard about burn bags, I thought they were like, a bag that would incinerate it itself, like in the movies, you know, this message was self destructed, 5 seconds kind of deal. But they are just a bag that you put stuff in and then you burn that whole bag. Yeah.
• 53:02
  Speaker A: Life is full of disappointments.
• 53:04
  Speaker B: Also, like, I've been even still, like, you know, it'd be cool to have a couple of burn bags. And, like, I've seen a few pop up on eBay for, like, $50 for one bag. Like, I'm not gonna pay $50 for that. And then I've also found, like, a supplier online that's like, 200 bags for, like, $200. Like, okay, that's a bit more reasonable, but I don't need 200. I just want, like, two.
• 53:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's ridiculous. And it's government properties, so.
• 53:30
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 53:31
  Speaker A: Like, how'd they get it?
• 53:33
  Speaker B: What I assume is that they're, well, just one of the, like, sellers. Like, the government's got to get them from somewhere. So it's like their wholesaler, which is why you order in 200.
• 53:44
  Speaker A: There you go. So the other thing I have was live science. How does the secure telephone work?
• 53:49
  Speaker B: All right.
• 53:49
  Speaker A: It really. It doesn't really have that much information. It just says it's achieved through encryption technology. At both ends of the call, encryption jumbles at the beginning to render it incomprehensible if someone's tapping in. But then on the other end, they have the recipient's phone, has the key needed to unlock all of it and reassemble it. But it doesn't explain, like, how that's done.
• 54:11
  Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean. Cause then you could presumably get into it.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: I was hoping for maybe selling more information than that.
• 54:18
  Speaker B: Before we go on, I would say that I believe that the NSA or the national cryptologic Museum out in. Where is that fort. What's it called?
• 54:30
  Speaker A: Oh, for me.
• 54:31
  Speaker B: Fort me. Thank you. Does have examples of, like, pretty, like, aside from the very, you know, the most recent version of it. They have versions of, like, all of the different secure lines. Like, I think the Stu three is one of them that they have there. And so you get to see what they look like. And, I mean, you obviously can't tell how they do their job, but they just look like regular phones. And they also have, like, secure blackberries and stuff like that, too. Let's go see.
• 54:58
  Speaker A: There you go. Nice. Okay, so in addition to that, and I don't have this written down, this is just from my memory. Cheek. Solomon and the lebanese civil war. So do you remember we talked about it in a different episode, the killing of another terrorist named Salome. Oh, it was for Spyde. This spot with Melissa McCarthy where they had, with the Mossad had an agent dressed as an elderly english spinster who raped cats. And Salome was the guy that she killed. And I guess it's the same name.
• 55:27
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 55:28
  Speaker A: I don't know if it's supposed to be a reference to the real guy or not. And then also for the Spy museum book club, us volunteers recently read a book called rise and kill first, the history of Israel's target assassination program. And they talk about using a poison that is incomprehensible, but it causes someone to die of natural causes. And unfortunately, I don't have it written down, so I don't know who the guy they killed with that is. But if you're curious, check out the book. It's quite good. But it's also like 700 pages long.
• 55:59
  Speaker B: Oh, okay.
• 55:59
  Speaker A: That's just warning about that. But it is good. That's all I have for spy. Fact versus fiction.
• 56:05
  Speaker B: All right, I've got something. So the bishop is talking about in Beirut. The. You know, he's got that racket going called operation dinner out, where you're smuggling different things in through the diplomatic bag. So, it's from Wikipedia. A diplomatic bag, also known as a diplomatic pouch, is contained with certain legal protections used for carrying official correspondence or other items between a diplomatic mission and its home government or other diplomatic, consular, or otherwise official entities. The physical concept of a diplomatic bag is flexible, and you take many forms. Examples, a cardboard box, a briefcase, a duffel bag, large suitcase, crate, or even a shipping container. Diplomatic bag usually has some form of lock or tamper evidence seal attached to it to deter or detect interference by unauthorized third parties. Most important is as long as it is externally marked to show its status. The bag, in quotes, has diplomatic immunity from search or seizures. It may only contain articles intended for official use. There have been numerous cases where the privileges of the diplomatic bag have been used to facilitate smuggling.
• 57:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds like spies. Yeah, spies we know.
• 57:12
  Speaker B: And, like, a notable thing is that during World War Two, Churchill reportedly received shipments of Cuba, cuban cigars, in the diplomatic bag. And then also the passports, what's known as the canadian caper or the argo, or as shown in Argo. Those passports were also sent through the diplomatic bag, right?
• 57:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, they keep using it. I'm surprised they haven't come up more in our podcast.
• 57:34
  Speaker B: I mean, it's come up in the living daylights at the very end where they, you know, it says, the villain is told you'll be escorted back to Moscow in the diplomatic bag.
• 57:47
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
• 57:49
  Speaker B: All right, lastly, I've got. All right, what would. So $282 in 1991, money in 2024.
• 57:58
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 57:58
  Speaker B: Is $650,275.02.
• 58:04
  Speaker A: All right. I was pretty close.
• 58:07
  Speaker B: Seems better than just your life savings is 282,000.
• 58:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, for a life savings.
• 58:14
  Speaker B: All righty. Should we move on to our favorite quotes?
• 58:16
  Speaker A: Yeah, I can go first.
• 58:17
  Speaker B: All right.
• 58:18
  Speaker A: I. Someone's. We mentioned already, don't ever risk your life for an asset. If it comes down to you or them, send flowers. I think Muir had a lot of, like, super.
• 58:27
  Speaker B: Had so many good lines.
• 58:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. You told her four lies that now have to be true. I quite liked when Bishop said, I'm not ending up like you. Finally, I'll finish with a funny one where your says, chuck, are you gonna dance with your hand on my ass all night. Or are you gonna make your move?
• 58:44
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good one. All right.
• 58:47
  Speaker A: I feel like he probably came up with that in advance.
• 58:49
  Speaker B: I was waiting for chances. Yeah. So a lot of minor from your says, look, if I'm walking to a shit storm, I want to know which way the wind is blowing. And then when gladys think, aren't you being a little paranoid in your last day? And he says, when did Noah build the arc lattice? Before the rain. For the rain. From his training. I got two lines from his train. When he's training bishop, he says the technology gets better every day, and that's fine. Most of the time, all you need is a stick of gum, pocket knife and a smile.
• 59:18
  Speaker A: I knew you would like that one because it's similar to something even hunt would say.
• 59:25
  Speaker B: And then he says, tells, and I brought this up. Ready? You've got to see it, assess it, and dismiss most of it. Without looking, without thinking. It's just like breathing. You breathe, don't you?
• 59:35
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 59:36
  Speaker B: Okay, just got two more. There's so many good lines in this. And I. Bishop says, I thought spies drank martinis. And Bishop Nmuer says, scotch. Never less than twelve years old.
• 59:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. Then there's also a line where they say, your girl is younger than your scotch.
• 59:51
  Speaker B: Yep.
• 59:51
  Speaker A: Or a woman, I should say. Yeah.
• 59:54
  Speaker B: Lastly, kind of talked around it where Harker says, dinner out is a go. Hell of way to talk to his wife.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker A: Yep. It was very, very amusing.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker B: Yeah. All right. Well, that's what I've got for favorite quote.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker A: Okay, so now it's time for ratings. On a scale of one to ten martinis, one being 1998 and ten being even better than mission impossible, ghost protocol, how would we rate spy game?
• 1:00:18
  Speaker B: All right, Zach, let's hear it.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker A: So, I have mixed feelings about the movie.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker A: As you know, I like things that are different. So I appreciated that we had the alternating timelines with a lot of. It was in flashback, the politicking. I didn't care for quite as much, though. It was kind of interesting to watch him move things around. Although it was hard to follow sometimes. I did feel like it hung together. I figured it all out by the end, but the end is where things kind of go off the rails a little bit. So, like I mentioned, I was disappointed that there was no final scene. Really? Like, we never see the two main characters interact in the present. The whole movie.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker B: Interesting. All right.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker A: And I don't feel like I had a really good handle on Tom Bishop's character at the end, because we haven't seen him since the eighties.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker B: True, true.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker A: You know, and then also, how could there be a happy ending? Like, Muir totally violated the law and totally went off the rails. How is he able to just, like, walk away? And this is a guy who, like, knows all the angle, is that he knows how to play everybody. He knows how the game works. And I don't mind if he threw it all away to save his friend. That's why I mentioned the death flag. I thought he was going to literally sacrifice everything, go to prison or maybe die. And it's okay because he's passing on towards the next generation. Not to mention the whole thing with the international incident and them invading China, which doesn't make any sense. So the movie's very mixed. I think it is pretty good, though, on the whole. Like, I didn't dislike it, so I will give it a six and a half martinius.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker B: All right. All right. See, I find that so fun. Well, because you're always like, you know, you want things to be more realistic. You don't always like the James Bond craziness, so.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker B: I thought you would. And this is. I found each time I think you're gonna love a movie. You hate it.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker A: I didn't hate this. I give it a six and a half. That's not a hatred.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker B: Okay. But, yeah. Well, there's the same thing with the. What was that? The virus? No. Wow.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker A: The Christian.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker A: That I. Dead hate.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. So it's like, this is, you know, it is actually probably the more realistic of what a spy actually does. Not the end part, but everything else. Like, this is why I love this. It's because it is all of the, you know, you know, showing the relationship building that the case officer actually do and just the deception and turning it and, like, just the button on it where he has the photos of China and the Bahamas, and he switches them and he reveals something, but not actually what he wants, that, you know, what he needs, what they want him to reveal. And it's just so well done. Just all the complexity and interplay that. I love it.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying, is that complexity and the interplay all held together until the end. That's what I'm saying.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker B: Here's the thing, though. Like, in 2001, they are. We're not at a time audiences still want happy ending. Sure. So we're not at the time yet where your general audience is going to say, are going to accept that that's going to be that ending of. All right. He goes to prison. He goes to prison instead. No, you want. You want the hero to win, then, right?
• 1:03:38
  Speaker A: In ending that makes more sense, like, fate have mirror fake his death. And then the last scene is Tom walks into a cabin in Barbados, and he's there, like, at the end of Shawshank redemption.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker B: I was gonna say. So you want the Shawshank redemption ending?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker B: No, I am okay with this, because in reality, they're probably never gonna meet up because he's. They. You know. You know, who knows where Bishop has to go because he's escaped from justice and Muir has to go somewhere else, probably. So that's. That's it. That's, you know, Muir is satisfied knowing that he saved his, you know, Mentee, and he goes off into the sun set.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker A: You know what we need is a sequel.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker B: Finally, you say that.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker B: So, in 2022, one of the co screenwriters of the film, Michael Frost Speckner, published a trilogy of novels featuring characters from the film. They're called Muir's Gambit, Bishop's endgame, and Aiken in chick. I have no idea who Aitken is, but I want to check it out.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker A: Then please carry on with your review.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker B: If you can't tell. I really enjoy this movie, and I think that it's just very well done. This is done by the late, great Tony Scott, who also directed Top Gun, as well, of Days of Thunder. Very well filmed. I think the story holds up well, and it is, while it is complex, it is not overly.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker A: It could be worse.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker B: Gonna give this a nine out of.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker A: Pretty much a perfect movie. So what would have made it a ten out of ten? Christian? It was longer.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker B: I don't know what would have made it a ten out of ten. I think it's great. I don't think it's perfect.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker A: I mean, like I've always said since we started, a ten out of ten. I'm not gonna say I'll never give a movie a ten out of ten, but that's like. I mean, this is very difficult.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker B: I'll give you. I was tempted. I was tempted.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker A: All right. All right. Anything else we want to say about spy game? The old spy game?
• 1:05:30
  Speaker B: No. I was gonna bring up the book series that came after it, but you gave me a nice end to do that, so I think I'm good.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker A: Sounds great. Well, thank you all for joining us. You can find us on social media at the spy fi guys on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. We also have our merch store@redbubble.com, and a new YouTube page where you could find episodes as well. Until next time, I'm Zach.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker B: And I'm Christian.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker A: And we are the spy fi guys signing off.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker B: Thank you for listening to the spy fi guys. If you enjoyed our podcast, please be sure to give us a five star rating on iTunes. The theme song from this podcast is mistake the Getaway by Kevin McClellan from incompetech.com, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 3.0. Films, books, and television shows reviewed by our podcast are the intellectual property of their respective copyright holders, and no infringement is intended.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker A: This is a personal podcast. Any views, statements, or opinions expressed in this podcast are personal and belong solely to the participants. They do not represent those of people, institutions, or organizations that the participants may or may not be associated with in a professional or personal capacity unless explicitly stated. Any views or opinions are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, or individual.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker B: You can find our podcast on social media at thesplayer, Spifi guys on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.