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Meta Is Reading Your Landing Page (Most Media Buyers Have No Idea) · Scalability School

• 0:00
  Can you hear my kids?
• 0:01
  Yeah, a little bit, but it's fine.
• 0:02
  It's not too bad.
• 0:05
  Well, that's until they start.
• 0:06
  Hold on.
• 0:07
  Let me do one more thing.
• 0:08
  It sounds like you live next to a park.
• 0:11
  It's distant, but...
• 0:12
  Is that any better?
• 0:13
  No, your voice is...
• 0:14
  No, just put it back.
• 0:16
  All right.
• 0:17
  I'm just going to try
• 0:18
  to throw it on mute.
• 0:20
  Hold on.
• 0:20
  Give me one second.
• 0:21
  It just starts screaming instantly.
• 0:24
  All right.
• 0:36
  Welcome back to another episode of the
• 0:38
  Scalability School podcast.
• 0:39
  Andrew is not with us.
• 0:42
  That sounds really dark.
• 0:43
  He's with us somewhere.
• 0:44
  He's busy right now.
• 0:46
  And so he left us to do intros.
• 0:47
  And this is what happens
• 0:48
  when you leave me to do intros.
• 0:50
  But we're excited to jump
• 0:51
  into some landing page stuff.
• 0:52
  I know I've been spending a lot of time
• 0:54
  talking about landing
• 0:55
  pages on this podcast.
• 0:56
  And basically, if you've talked to me
• 0:58
  about marketing in the
• 0:59
  last 60 days, it's something
• 1:01
  that I am talking about way too much.
• 1:04
  And today, we're going to dig into a
• 1:06
  bunch of specific
• 1:07
  insights and just kind of have
• 1:08
  a back and forth YAP session about things
• 1:10
  that we're seeing
• 1:10
  working, progression, how
• 1:12
  to test, what we'd like to see more of,
• 1:14
  how to do reporting,
• 1:15
  and a bunch of things in
• 1:17
  between.
• 1:18
  And so, yeah, it's going to be a little
• 1:19
  bit of a YAP session.
• 1:20
  I did, I will say, I'm about 30 minutes
• 1:22
  into your operators podcast.
• 1:25
  So, you know, you're big timing us.
• 1:27
  But no, it's cool, dude.
• 1:30
  Well, it gets worse.
• 1:32
  Don't listen.
• 1:33
  Don't listen much longer.
• 1:34
  I am for those, you know, the our 10, you
• 1:37
  know, 10s of singles of listeners that we
• 1:39
  have on skill building school.
• 1:40
  They were asking like this, like
• 1:43
  whatever, ask the same 10
• 1:44
  questions at the end of every
• 1:45
  podcast.
• 1:46
  Like, what's one metric that's what's one
• 1:49
  metric that's like, overrated?
• 1:52
  And I said profit.
• 1:53
  And I immediately was, I was gassed.
• 1:55
  It was like after like,
• 1:56
  I had all day of calls.
• 1:58
  And I was like, yeah,
• 1:59
  it's because of cash flow.
• 2:00
  I was, it was the worst fucking answer I
• 2:02
  could have ever given.
• 2:03
  But you know what?
• 2:04
  Here, here we are.
• 2:05
  So I like reached out to Aaron.
• 2:06
  Can we take this out?
• 2:08
  He's like, it's already edited.
• 2:09
  I'm like, he's like, we could.
• 2:10
  And I'm like, I'm not an asshole.
• 2:11
  Just put it through.
• 2:12
  It's fine.
• 2:12
  Everyone will think I sound like decent.
• 2:14
  Then they're like, he
• 2:15
  doesn't want profit.
• 2:16
  What the fuck is that?
• 2:17
  So anyways, yeah, go listen to it.
• 2:19
  There's a big crossover of people who
• 2:20
  listen to this and that.
• 2:21
  Maybe, you know, so there's a, for sure.
• 2:24
  Like we, we probably have
• 2:25
  all the problem from that.
• 2:27
  Probably already listened to that by the
• 2:28
  time they listen to this.
• 2:29
  So for sure.
• 2:30
  Anyways, again, let's, let's get into it.
• 2:33
  So I think first, first topic, we've
• 2:36
  talked about this a bit.
• 2:37
  I think I mentioned it actually on that,
• 2:38
  on that episode, but
• 2:40
  creative, creative land of
• 2:41
  congruency.
• 2:42
  Do you want to like kick this off and
• 2:43
  then I'll, I'll add my, my perspective.
• 2:45
  Yeah.
• 2:45
  One of the, one of the biggest like
• 2:47
  frustrations that I see still,
• 2:50
  I spend a lot of time looking
• 2:51
  at ad accounts and libraries and I like
• 2:53
  watch an ad and it'll be
• 2:55
  like, help your dog sleep
• 2:57
  better at night.
• 2:58
  And then you click through to the page
• 3:00
  and it's like, okay, I
• 3:01
  landed on the PDP, which
• 3:02
  like might be fine, but there's literally
• 3:03
  nothing about sleep on the page.
• 3:06
  Like maybe a comparable for, for like
• 3:08
  hollow, like cause I know
• 3:09
  he always used hollow as
• 3:10
  an example.
• 3:10
  It's like, if you were talking about, um,
• 3:12
  hiking, uh, to somebody
• 3:14
  and then you send them
• 3:15
  to like a page that like was using images
• 3:17
  of the, like the
• 3:18
  compression socks has nothing
• 3:19
  to talk about with hunting.
• 3:20
  One more example.
• 3:21
  We were looking at a, uh, is like a
• 3:24
  bedding, bedding company.
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  Uh, and they like their, one of the top
• 3:27
  performing ads was talking
• 3:28
  about like how it makes bedtime
• 3:30
  easier for me.
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  Like kids making their
• 3:31
  bed was so much easier.
• 3:33
  And they're like, there's all the only
• 3:34
  pictures on the website are
• 3:35
  a bunch of old people making
• 3:36
  their bed.
• 3:36
  It's like, dude, where
• 3:37
  are the kids at brother?
• 3:38
  Um, so anyways, point on landing page
• 3:40
  congruency is like you're, you're
• 3:42
  telling, you're starting
• 3:42
  to tell a story in the ad.
• 3:44
  Um, and then if you're not continuing
• 3:47
  that story on the
• 3:47
  landing page, I think there's
• 3:48
  just a pretty big missed opportunity.
• 3:50
  And I think the recurring word of the
• 3:52
  year for us has been, and
• 3:54
  you said this a lot is like
• 3:55
  just intentionality and like being more
• 3:57
  thoughtful at every
• 3:58
  single step of the way.
• 3:59
  Um, and so creative and lander congruency
• 4:01
  is like the way that we're seeing this.
• 4:03
  Um, so now you guys are spending a lot of
• 4:04
  time thinking about that.
• 4:06
  And it's like, I think one of these last
• 4:08
  episodes, you said you
• 4:10
  didn't want to talk too much about
• 4:11
  it because it's, it's one of the things
• 4:12
  that's been, uh,
• 4:13
  unlocking stuff, but I think cats
• 4:14
  out of the bag.
• 4:15
  Um, so I don't know if you want to expand
• 4:17
  on things that you're
• 4:17
  seeing working and how
• 4:18
  you guys have been thinking about it.
• 4:20
  Yeah.
• 4:20
  So we built a report just recently.
• 4:23
  Um, and it's just, it's just landing page
• 4:25
  reporting, which I know
• 4:26
  we're going to talk about
• 4:27
  that year in a minute.
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  But the, one of the things that I wanted
• 4:29
  to do is look at, so
• 4:31
  I'll, I'll talk about Mars,
• 4:32
  for example, on this one, Mars actively
• 4:35
  is running 33 landing
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  pages, which is quite a
• 4:38
  few.
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  And I think probably more than the
• 4:39
  average brand, but I think
• 4:42
  what we're starting to do
• 4:43
  well is we're, we're, we're matching.
• 4:46
  We are not going to launch an ad if it's
• 4:48
  going to talk about
• 4:49
  cortisol or if it's going to talk
• 4:51
  about, you know, uh, strength or
• 4:53
  willpower or whatever.
• 4:54
  If we do not have a landing page that
• 4:56
  also talks about that.
• 4:57
  So that's like a new thesis in the
• 4:59
  company that we won't do
• 5:00
  it, which like won't launch
• 5:01
  it.
• 5:01
  And then the creative strategist
• 5:03
  basically say, Hey, I don't
• 5:03
  feel like I have a landing page
• 5:04
  that's, that's congruent enough.
• 5:06
  Go, go make me one this week.
• 5:08
  So what's crazy about that is now I get
• 5:10
  to go look at all
• 5:12
  these ads that are running
• 5:13
  to these 33 different landing pages and
• 5:16
  actually see in my report that I built.
• 5:18
  Um, it's just like a quad generated
• 5:20
  report with a dropdown.
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  What are the top spending
• 5:23
  ads to that landing page?
• 5:25
  And I can go figure out, is there
• 5:27
  concurrency happening or not?
• 5:28
  Cause there's something that's happening
• 5:30
  that this ad is getting
• 5:30
  more spend, which usually
• 5:31
  means, okay.
• 5:32
  So I mean, meta likes it or yes,
• 5:35
  performance is probably there.
• 5:36
  But like to your point about the sheets
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  example, like if we're
• 5:40
  talking about cortisol in the
• 5:42
  ad and then we jump on a page and it's
• 5:45
  literally has nothing says
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  it doesn't even say cortisol
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  on it.
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  Why are we running that,
• 5:49
  that ad to that, to that page?
• 5:51
  So that's been like
• 5:52
  really, really helpful.
• 5:53
  Um, I think that not a lot of people,
• 5:56
  like people look at
• 5:56
  landing page performance and
• 5:57
  then look at ad creative performance.
• 5:59
  They don't usually look
• 6:00
  at them like combined.
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  And I think the cool thing about looking
• 6:02
  at it from a landing
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  page, you are out first and
• 6:05
  then the ad creative
• 6:06
  that actually goes to it.
• 6:08
  You're able to actually reverse kind of
• 6:10
  into, is this, is it
• 6:11
  doing what it's supposed to
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  do versus just looking at top ads and
• 6:14
  then just like seeing,
• 6:15
  it's just like, it's hard
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  to kind of resonate.
• 6:17
  Is that matching the page or not?
• 6:19
  Um, I think it's easier
• 6:20
  to go the other way around.
• 6:22
  Yeah.
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  And so you said 33 pages live and I'm
• 6:24
  sure we'll talk about
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  maybe if we have enough time,
• 6:27
  we'll talk about like how we actually
• 6:28
  test, um, and how you
• 6:29
  think about testing.
• 6:30
  But those are like individually, you're
• 6:31
  not, it doesn't sound
• 6:32
  like you're using backend
• 6:34
  split testing tool to split them.
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  Like they're all active
• 6:36
  URLs listed inside of meta.
• 6:38
  That's not really my question.
• 6:39
  My question is really more like, what is
• 6:41
  the limit to the
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  quantity of pages and like how
• 6:43
  specific, you know, like, cause you can
• 6:45
  continue to go deeper and deeper and more
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  narrow.
• 6:47
  Yeah.
• 6:48
  And so I guess like, how are you thinking
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  about the width of the pages?
• 6:51
  So we break this down by pillar, just
• 6:53
  like we would with an ad creative.
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  So we start with pillars.
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  So we've got like, you know, aging,
• 6:58
  cortisol, energy, you know, weight loss.
• 7:02
  GLP one is like a huge category, you
• 7:04
  know, uh, TRT versus natural.
• 7:07
  Like these are all pillars.
• 7:09
  So you're going to start with the pillar.
• 7:10
  So like maybe we only have, we have 30
• 7:12
  pages, but maybe at like
• 7:13
  10, 10 ish pillars, right.
• 7:15
  To choose from.
• 7:16
  And then obviously
• 7:16
  dependent on the pillar.
• 7:18
  Like if we see traction,
• 7:20
  we'll have different pages.
• 7:21
  So like we might start with a listicle.
• 7:23
  This goes to the
• 7:23
  easiest one to start with.
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  We might start with 10 reasons why.
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  If we see a 10 reasons why it's working
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  really well for an aging
• 7:29
  pillar and performance is
• 7:31
  there and spend is there.
• 7:32
  We're like finding some congruency of ads
• 7:33
  and like traction is there.
• 7:34
  And then we might go take it 10 reasons
• 7:36
  and punch it over to an advertorial.
• 7:38
  And then we'll maybe make a
• 7:38
  variant of the 10 reasons.
• 7:40
  That is like, you know, maybe the images
• 7:42
  go from in the 10
• 7:43
  reasons goes from images to
• 7:45
  then gifts, or like maybe
• 7:46
  we go from 10 down to five.
• 7:48
  And then we add in a whole different
• 7:49
  comparison section grid to the page.
• 7:51
  That's kind of how we think about it is
• 7:53
  like, we start always with the listicle.
• 7:55
  We start before the listicle, even
• 7:57
  choosing that, that template.
• 7:58
  Start with like the pillar of the page
• 8:01
  that we're going to try
• 8:02
  and match the pillar of
• 8:03
  the ad creatives.
• 8:05
  Yeah.
• 8:05
  And then will you keep,
• 8:06
  will you keep the advertorial?
• 8:10
  Sorry.
• 8:10
  Okay.
• 8:11
  Will you keep the listicle, the quiz and
• 8:12
  the advertorial all live
• 8:13
  as long as they're still
• 8:14
  performing?
• 8:14
  So like same creative, just different
• 8:17
  landing pages with the match messaging?
• 8:19
  So the only way that we're doing the same
• 8:21
  actual ad creative to
• 8:22
  a different lander is
• 8:23
  to quiz.
• 8:25
  So if, if a page is working on the 10
• 8:27
  reasons why we'll, we'll,
• 8:28
  we'll kind of like graduated
• 8:30
  up to the quiz.
• 8:31
  But outside of that, it'll always be a
• 8:33
  net new piece of ad
• 8:34
  creative that we'll try.
• 8:36
  Yeah.
• 8:37
  So no, we don't have any
• 8:38
  of like the duplicate stuff.
• 8:39
  We used to do more of that.
• 8:40
  We started to see like
• 8:41
  performance take a hit.
• 8:42
  So again, based on what Meta is telling
• 8:45
  us, like they, they see
• 8:46
  that as the same thing.
• 8:47
  So we were trying to actually build it
• 8:49
  out as something different,
• 8:50
  even though if the landing
• 8:51
  page is different, we're, we're, we're
• 8:53
  treating it as if it could
• 8:54
  be the only funnel that we're
• 8:55
  okay with it being the same exact
• 8:57
  creative is, is the quiz
• 8:58
  because it's such a different
• 9:00
  type of experience and funnel.
• 9:02
  So that's what we think about it.
• 9:04
  Yeah, that's cool.
• 9:04
  I have a, there's an example that the
• 9:06
  reason I asked that, um, is
• 9:08
  because I have an example.
• 9:09
  I, I tweeted this recently,
• 9:10
  so I'm just pulling it up.
• 9:10
  So I have the numbers in front of me, but
• 9:12
  we took, um, we had a
• 9:13
  client that was sending
• 9:14
  all their traffic to a PDP, but it was
• 9:17
  sending out all the
• 9:18
  traffic to the, to the PDP.
• 9:19
  So you can see that at the bottom there,
• 9:20
  but it spent the PDP,
• 9:22
  um, spent $41,000 and we
• 9:25
  duplicated that same piece of creative
• 9:27
  and sent it to a five reasons why page.
• 9:29
  And they ended up over that time period,
• 9:31
  at least spending the
• 9:31
  same amount of money, five
• 9:32
  reasons why, which has graduated to many
• 9:34
  other things since then,
• 9:35
  um, like spent the same
• 9:36
  amount, but perform
• 9:37
  substantially more efficiently.
• 9:39
  And then everybody's obsessed with CPMR.
• 9:41
  So I kind of made a meme out of that and
• 9:42
  just saying like CPMR was
• 9:43
  also lower, um, for this,
• 9:46
  but like, those are the same ads.
• 9:47
  And what was interesting about that, as I
• 9:49
  found it, I was
• 9:49
  looking at the delivery of
• 9:52
  the different, what is the, what is the
• 9:54
  delivery difference between
• 9:55
  the two of these specifically
• 9:56
  the age breakdown.
• 9:57
  And if you look at the age breakdown for
• 9:59
  the PDP, it was like 45
• 10:01
  and up pretty clearly.
• 10:02
  Um, and that was one of the
• 10:03
  insights that landed on the page.
• 10:05
  So like the headline says, X reasons why
• 10:07
  women 45 and up are
• 10:08
  blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 10:09
  Um, I was looking at the breakdown again
• 10:11
  for the five reasons
• 10:12
  why and how that changed.
• 10:13
  So really the only thing that changed is
• 10:15
  that all of a sudden 45
• 10:17
  and up started to rip even
• 10:19
  more.
• 10:19
  So 45 and up was spending more.
• 10:21
  It was more efficient, but
• 10:23
  the 55 and up was still good.
• 10:24
  It just didn't get any
• 10:25
  more spend proportionally.
• 10:26
  Um, and 65 and up was
• 10:28
  also still really good.
• 10:29
  Just getting, and it didn't get any more
• 10:30
  spend proportionally,
• 10:31
  but it was the same ad.
• 10:32
  So there's a couple of points in there,
• 10:34
  um, that I'm just kind
• 10:35
  of like yapping through.
• 10:36
  The first is that we find that having
• 10:38
  multiple pages live has been
• 10:39
  interesting because it meets
• 10:41
  people at different
• 10:42
  points of where they're at.
• 10:42
  Like to your point, quiz is maybe, Hey,
• 10:44
  I'm a little less
• 10:45
  aware of what's going on.
• 10:47
  Um, I'm not sure if you'd agree with
• 10:47
  that, but like, it's a
• 10:48
  little more top of funnel
• 10:50
  in the way that people
• 10:51
  traditionally talk about it.
• 10:52
  Listicles may be somewhere in the middle,
• 10:53
  depending on the positioning.
• 10:54
  And then PDP is like, obviously as, as
• 10:57
  close as you can probably
• 10:59
  get without sending people
• 10:59
  directly to checkout, which I've seen
• 11:01
  some ad accounts that try to do that.
• 11:03
  And then the other point is like, okay,
• 11:04
  well, there's an
• 11:05
  interesting progression on that,
• 11:06
  on that five reasons why page and those
• 11:08
  insights, which is, okay,
• 11:10
  we've got this messaging on this
• 11:11
  page that says 45 and up.
• 11:12
  What if we just duplicate the headline
• 11:14
  and go 55 and up and
• 11:15
  still leave the same ad live?
• 11:17
  How would that change things?
• 11:18
  A lot of philosophy around like how
• 11:20
  fragmented the ad account starts to get.
• 11:22
  Um, but the whole, I said something on a
• 11:24
  call, um, recently that
• 11:26
  like seemed to make it clear
• 11:27
  to people, but like Andromeda is reading
• 11:30
  the page, not just the ad.
• 11:32
  And that was, that was, that was
• 11:33
  interesting for me to see
• 11:34
  because now, yes, Meta thinks
• 11:36
  that the creative is the same, but it's
• 11:37
  very clearly different delivery.
• 11:39
  Um, so you're thinking about that whole
• 11:40
  funnel as, as the ad really.
• 11:43
  You said a couple of things there that I
• 11:44
  think are super
• 11:44
  interesting that I'm personally
• 11:45
  gonna like take and break down, which is
• 11:47
  like the age breakdown by
• 11:49
  landing page performance.
• 11:51
  That's something that I
• 11:51
  haven't thought about in a while.
• 11:52
  I look at it by creative, um, but I don't
• 11:55
  look at it by Lander.
• 11:56
  So that's, that'll be
• 11:57
  fascinating to dig into.
• 11:58
  And then I've never
• 11:59
  looked at CPMR by Lander.
• 12:01
  Yeah.
• 12:02
  Like destination URL.
• 12:03
  So that just another one to be like, I
• 12:05
  wonder what that does.
• 12:06
  And if some landing pages, which I think
• 12:08
  would make sense
• 12:09
  inherently have a better CPMR.
• 12:11
  So two good call-outs there for sure.
• 12:14
  Yeah.
• 12:14
  And that, that was, that was the thing
• 12:15
  that was so interesting
• 12:16
  about that is, I mean,
• 12:18
  I mean, CPMR to me, I'm still the cat,
• 12:20
  uh, the, the, I don't, I
• 12:22
  don't know if I've like
• 12:23
  fully come around to that
• 12:24
  as like a useful metric yet.
• 12:25
  I think it's interesting.
• 12:26
  Um, but like ROAS was substantially
• 12:29
  better and then we
• 12:30
  could spend more behind it.
• 12:31
  So it's like, I didn't need the CPMR
• 12:33
  signal to tell me that.
• 12:34
  Um, and I'm sure we'll
• 12:35
  get into how we test things.
• 12:36
  Um, but like, it was very clear that that
• 12:38
  just like consumed all the spend.
• 12:39
  So, um, we still find success sending the
• 12:41
  same creative to, to,
• 12:43
  um, different landing pages
• 12:44
  because you actually do unlock a
• 12:46
  different audience as we saw
• 12:47
  in, in that age, uh, breakdown.
• 12:49
  Brad, I'm sure people that are listening
• 12:50
  to this probably know
• 12:51
  what CPMR is, but do you
• 12:52
  want to explain what that is?
• 12:53
  Cause we've said it like five times, but.
• 12:54
  Yeah.
• 12:55
  Yeah.
• 12:55
  So, um, generally
• 12:56
  people look at, um, CPM.
• 12:58
  So cost per 1000 impressions.
• 13:00
  CPMR is basically just
• 13:02
  the reach version of that.
• 13:03
  So pressure impressions are non-unique.
• 13:06
  Reach is a unique impression.
• 13:08
  So, um, it's just the amount that you
• 13:10
  spend to reach 1000 unique people.
• 13:13
  The one of the reasons I don't like it is
• 13:14
  like inherently just goes down over time.
• 13:16
  Like it, the second you spend $1 on meta,
• 13:19
  your next piece of
• 13:19
  reach, like it just inherently
• 13:21
  goes down.
• 13:21
  There's only so many people
• 13:22
  you can reach in the world.
• 13:23
  And if you narrow it down to the U S and
• 13:24
  then you narrow it down
• 13:25
  to your target market,
• 13:26
  you just, you just run out of people.
• 13:28
  And you, you kind of
• 13:28
  alluded to this earlier.
• 13:29
  And it's one of the things you talked
• 13:30
  about in the, in the
• 13:30
  operators episodes, which is like,
• 13:32
  you think about starting a product that
• 13:34
  just has so many
• 13:35
  fricking angles that you can
• 13:36
  unlock because that's
• 13:37
  how you can open up.
• 13:38
  I mean, TAM is one way to think about
• 13:39
  this, but like specific
• 13:40
  angles is how you can say
• 13:42
  different things to different people.
• 13:44
  But yeah, CPMR is, um, cost per 1000
• 13:47
  unique reached people.
• 13:49
  Sweet.
• 13:49
  Yeah.
• 13:50
  So you, you kind of, you were talking
• 13:51
  about the progression of
• 13:52
  landing pages and the types
• 13:53
  of landing pages.
• 13:54
  Um, I don't know if you want to speak to,
• 13:56
  um, you said you start
• 13:57
  with listicles and then
• 13:58
  go into some of those other things.
• 13:59
  Um, is there like a certain progression
• 14:01
  that you go to a certain
• 14:02
  reason why you start with
• 14:03
  listicles?
• 14:04
  Um, maybe just talk about
• 14:05
  the formats or a second.
• 14:06
  Yeah.
• 14:06
  I mean, it's just ease, right?
• 14:07
  So once you have a light, a 10 reasons
• 14:10
  why template for the
• 14:11
  most part, if you go look
• 14:12
  at any big nine figure brands, like they
• 14:15
  all run pretty much the same template.
• 14:17
  So the nice thing about it is it requires
• 14:19
  copy and it requires
• 14:20
  like static, static image
• 14:22
  design for, for, for the graphics.
• 14:23
  So I think just for, you know, ease of
• 14:26
  speed, it's, it's the best.
• 14:28
  Um, and I think it's, again, it's such a
• 14:30
  simple concept of like,
• 14:31
  here's 10 reasons why here's
• 14:33
  five reasons why it just, it's inherently
• 14:36
  how people think about things.
• 14:38
  Um, they just like lists.
• 14:40
  So that that's usually
• 14:41
  where we start from there.
• 14:42
  Then obviously getting
• 14:44
  advertorials to work.
• 14:44
  I used to be like a
• 14:46
  advertorials will never work.
• 14:47
  I think I've said this on this podcast.
• 14:49
  We've started to get them to work.
• 14:50
  And I think it just has
• 14:51
  to do with copywriting.
• 14:52
  Like it has to have the right ad creative
• 14:55
  that, you know, usually
• 14:57
  is a bit more top of funnel
• 14:58
  and it then can do, you know, if, if the
• 15:01
  creative then kind of
• 15:02
  answers the, the, it closes the
• 15:04
  loop of what the
• 15:05
  creative might, might produce.
• 15:07
  You know, people talk about native ads,
• 15:09
  which is like, you know,
• 15:10
  it looks like a phone from
• 15:12
  your, or a photo from like your parents
• 15:13
  phone, like that, that
• 15:15
  they just accidentally took
• 15:16
  almost like, that's the piece of
• 15:18
  creative, you know, like something
• 15:20
  sitting on a counter.
• 15:21
  It's like shitty lighting, interesting,
• 15:23
  and just kind of, you
• 15:24
  know, like, what is this?
• 15:24
  That's the whole concept of like a proper
• 15:26
  native ad or native creative.
• 15:29
  And so when those images that just kind
• 15:30
  of prompts, you know,
• 15:31
  curiosity to then an advertorial
• 15:33
  style page, or then it might be more of a
• 15:35
  story that you're
• 15:36
  telling, uh, I think can work
• 15:38
  well, but it's just harder to do.
• 15:39
  So start with 10 reasons, then go down
• 15:42
  that kind of rabbit
• 15:43
  hole of, of advertorial.
• 15:44
  And then we might just do like kind of
• 15:46
  its own unique blend, which
• 15:48
  is like different sections.
• 15:49
  You know, there might be, uh, kind of
• 15:52
  like a mini 10 reasons
• 15:53
  why built within the page.
• 15:54
  Then there might be a us versus them.
• 15:56
  And then there might be,
• 15:57
  you know, uh, an FAQ section.
• 16:00
  There might be all sorts of like these
• 16:02
  kind of unique things, a longer story.
• 16:04
  Maybe there's like a
• 16:04
  founder story section in it.
• 16:06
  That's kind of like the third one.
• 16:08
  And then the fourth, which is quiz, which
• 16:10
  I think, you know,
• 16:11
  there's a couple of people
• 16:12
  on Twitter that talk
• 16:13
  about quizzes all the time.
• 16:14
  I mean, they are underrated.
• 16:15
  I think like, I think, you know, the
• 16:17
  problem is people seem
• 16:19
  like it's going to be like
• 16:20
  super hard to build.
• 16:21
  They're not really hard to build.
• 16:22
  There's a, there's a tool called Hayflow,
• 16:23
  which is what we used
• 16:24
  for the beginning of
• 16:24
  Marsmen.
• 16:25
  We've now built the tool internally.
• 16:27
  Our head of e-com built it and clawed and
• 16:28
  then self-deployed it, which is sick.
• 16:31
  Um, so we can do a lot more kind of
• 16:32
  custom stuff with it,
• 16:33
  but Hayflow is great.
• 16:35
  Like if you're wanting to try to build a
• 16:37
  quiz, like just go
• 16:37
  study again, top brands.
• 16:39
  Most of them build them very similarly.
• 16:41
  So this is another great entry point.
• 16:43
  So it's kind of like listicle,
• 16:45
  advertorial, dynamic page,
• 16:47
  and then quiz is kind of a whole
• 16:48
  other one.
• 16:49
  So that's how we think about it.
• 16:50
  Yeah.
• 16:51
  And within the, so like going back to
• 16:52
  listicles for a second, um,
• 16:54
  at some point, I'm sure you
• 16:55
  started with a three reasons or a five
• 16:57
  reasons and then a seven and then a 10.
• 16:59
  Um, so there's like a progression that
• 17:01
  you've gone through where
• 17:03
  you started, Hey, we started
• 17:04
  with a five and then we went to 10 and it
• 17:06
  made a big difference.
• 17:07
  And then we added, I mean, I've the
• 17:09
  amount of times I go into
• 17:10
  an ad library, I click the
• 17:12
  landing page and it's like, Oh, this
• 17:13
  looks like Marsman's
• 17:14
  landing page is like astounding.
• 17:17
  Um, but like there's comparison charts at
• 17:19
  the top or somewhere on the bottom.
• 17:20
  I know Primal Queen probably, I think
• 17:22
  Primal Queen was one of
• 17:23
  the original people to add
• 17:23
  like the timeline to it.
• 17:25
  Um, so it's like, what are those, what
• 17:26
  are the elements to a
• 17:28
  listicle that you've seen
• 17:29
  really make a difference?
• 17:30
  Yeah.
• 17:30
  I mean, the comparison
• 17:31
  chart is, is a no brainer.
• 17:33
  That one.
• 17:33
  And then just like a
• 17:34
  super clear final CTA section.
• 17:39
  Um, and then usually like some type of
• 17:41
  social proof, usually above that.
• 17:43
  So it goes like comparison chart, 10
• 17:46
  reasons, either FAQ or social proof
• 17:48
  section of just like
• 17:49
  review style content, um, or
• 17:52
  like a story from a customer.
• 17:54
  And that is like super clear.
• 17:56
  This is the only CTA on the
• 17:57
  page to move you over to a PDP.
• 17:59
  That's usually it.
• 18:00
  And again, like, I think I might've
• 18:01
  mentioned this in the
• 18:01
  last, on the last episode, but
• 18:03
  like now we're testing, like taking the
• 18:04
  PDP and injecting it below.
• 18:06
  So not even like that CTA section.
• 18:07
  So I think we'll see more people
• 18:10
  inherently copy that.
• 18:12
  Uh, if it's, if it's, you know, I don't
• 18:13
  know if that was us
• 18:14
  really doing that for the
• 18:14
  most part, but if you go look at our
• 18:15
  pages, there's a lot of, a
• 18:17
  lot of shoppable versions
• 18:18
  of PDPs below listicles and stuff like
• 18:20
  that now that we run.
• 18:21
  So yeah, I mean, I think,
• 18:23
  I think that's mostly it.
• 18:24
  I, you know, candidly, these ideas
• 18:27
  aren't, aren't always us or mine.
• 18:28
  Like, you know, the OG goats of, of DTC
• 18:32
  and direct response
• 18:32
  were like Javi and Blissey.
• 18:34
  You know, those are the two I got to meet
• 18:36
  the founders and get
• 18:37
  to become good friends
• 18:38
  with them.
• 18:38
  And, you know, inherently ended up
• 18:40
  copying some of their
• 18:41
  ideas or talk to them about
• 18:42
  concepts.
• 18:42
  But like the five reasons why originally
• 18:45
  it was because Blissey was doing it.
• 18:46
  And then they wrote that like six, seven,
• 18:48
  eight, nine, 10, 12, 15 reasons why.
• 18:50
  And like, they just kept adding more and
• 18:51
  kept seeing better
• 18:52
  performance and we didn't ratchet
• 18:54
  up to 15 or anything like that yet.
• 18:55
  But yeah, the Vahe and the team over at
• 18:58
  Blissey, just absolute
• 19:00
  goats with, with that.
• 19:01
  And then I think the Javi team were the
• 19:02
  ones that were figuring
• 19:03
  out some of these unique
• 19:04
  elements to add into these pages, just to
• 19:07
  add a little more sauce to them.
• 19:08
  And maybe it would answer like a little
• 19:10
  more context, which is
• 19:11
  usually what you're looking
• 19:12
  to do.
• 19:12
  It's just like, what is the missing
• 19:13
  context of this page that
• 19:15
  they would, it would be great
• 19:16
  for the customer to know
• 19:17
  before they see the price.
• 19:19
  All right, friends, quick break.
• 19:20
  This episode is brought to you by
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• 19:23
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  Incrementality was broken.
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  So the customer didn't know
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  before they see the price.
• 20:48
  Yeah, there's that's like that's such an
• 20:51
  interesting like place that
• 20:53
  I think we've kind of talked
• 20:54
  about this really briefly where like
• 20:55
  that's where like you can probably
• 20:57
  innovate quite a bit is
• 20:58
  like, OK, I know what
• 20:59
  I'm trying to answer.
• 21:01
  Like I know what a
• 21:02
  comparison chart answers.
• 21:03
  It shows very quickly how you stack up
• 21:05
  against other things
• 21:06
  that people are considering.
• 21:08
  Is there a different way you can
• 21:09
  communicate that other than a comparison
• 21:10
  chart or like people
• 21:13
  want to know what the
• 21:14
  product is going to do for them?
• 21:15
  Like what does the transformation look
• 21:16
  like before and after
• 21:18
  as a way of showing that
• 21:18
  transformation?
• 21:19
  But that timeline that I mentioned Primal
• 21:21
  Queen and I know a
• 21:22
  lot of other people have
• 21:23
  something like it, but like that timeline
• 21:25
  also kind of paints the
• 21:26
  picture of here's what
• 21:27
  you can expect and here's the
• 21:29
  transformation you can expect
• 21:30
  along these kind of timelines.
• 21:32
  I just it's such an interesting place
• 21:34
  because like that's where
• 21:34
  you can actually innovate.
• 21:37
  But that's also where it's very difficult
• 21:39
  because you have to figure
• 21:40
  out like what is the actual
• 21:40
  format and what is that section?
• 21:42
  How does it get delivered?
• 21:43
  I don't know if you've thought about like
• 21:45
  unique ways to deliver
• 21:46
  those those elements,
• 21:47
  but that's something that that I've been
• 21:49
  spending a lot of time thinking about.
• 21:50
  So I have two more two more
• 21:52
  follow up questions to that.
• 21:53
  The first thing is you kind of mentioned
• 21:56
  in the notes on
• 21:58
  something you wish you had more
• 21:59
  insight into, which was like what
• 22:01
  elements that we just
• 22:02
  talked about, like how they drive
• 22:04
  impact.
• 22:04
  How are you thinking about that?
• 22:05
  Like I think heat map might be a tool
• 22:08
  that kind of tries to map
• 22:09
  sections more specifically
• 22:10
  to revenue.
• 22:11
  I'm not sure exactly how they do it, but
• 22:12
  how are you thinking about that?
• 22:14
  I think that's just that
• 22:14
  you'd be testing pages.
• 22:15
  It's like the page with the element, the
• 22:17
  page without the element.
• 22:18
  I think that's really all you can do.
• 22:19
  And the issue is like you just need the
• 22:21
  velocity to actually like do that.
• 22:24
  I think people you're probably better off
• 22:26
  most brands that are,
• 22:28
  you know, are spending less
• 22:29
  than seven figures a month on ads.
• 22:31
  It's just like testing a whole new page
• 22:33
  versus like, hey, I add one new section.
• 22:36
  Is that going to get the lift?
• 22:37
  Like if you don't have enough velocity,
• 22:39
  like the test is going
• 22:39
  to have to run for months
• 22:40
  to technically validate.
• 22:42
  So you can obviously take the first
• 22:44
  couple of days or hours of
• 22:46
  performance on IntelliGems,
• 22:48
  however you want, and send
• 22:49
  it, which I've done in the past.
• 22:51
  And things have
• 22:52
  generally worked out for us.
• 22:53
  So sure.
• 22:54
  But that's how we, that's how we do it.
• 22:56
  It's just like design the whole new
• 22:58
  section, usually test it
• 23:00
  against the highest spend or
• 23:01
  highest traffic volume lander, and then
• 23:04
  run those side by side
• 23:05
  where it's just like we
• 23:06
  add one new section into the page.
• 23:08
  Did it add any performance or not?
• 23:10
  And then it's just a URL, URL change.
• 23:12
  I do have, I don't know,
• 23:13
  this is a tin hat theory.
• 23:14
  I do have a weird, there's something in
• 23:17
  my brain that says
• 23:18
  that meta doesn't like AB
• 23:19
  tests on the backend of URLs.
• 23:21
  I don't know what, but I think it's, I
• 23:23
  think it's the fact
• 23:24
  that, you know, Intromete is
• 23:25
  scraping the content on the page and it's
• 23:27
  seen a load happen or
• 23:29
  it's seen some JavaScript
• 23:30
  happen where it's like, I
• 23:31
  don't like this as much.
• 23:32
  Who knows?
• 23:33
  Maybe it just gives you like a, you know,
• 23:35
  you have a hundred
• 23:36
  points score and it takes
• 23:38
  one away of those hundred.
• 23:39
  Like maybe it's something, but I just
• 23:41
  have a weird feeling
• 23:42
  that it has an issue.
• 23:43
  No proof of that, but it's
• 23:45
  just something I think about.
• 23:46
  Yeah.
• 23:46
  Yeah. It's like, is it confusing?
• 23:48
  Is it confusing signal for
• 23:50
  the reasons you just mentioned?
• 23:51
  Because the way that it loads, but also
• 23:52
  like if a different type
• 23:53
  of person is resonating
• 23:54
  with that page, but it's technically the
• 23:56
  same ad creative, like
• 23:57
  it's different if they
• 23:58
  were two different pieces of, of like
• 24:00
  actually two different ads
• 24:02
  in the ad account, but like
• 24:03
  it's actually delivering based on how
• 24:06
  that ad is responding.
• 24:07
  So like, is it sending confusing signal
• 24:08
  back because different
• 24:09
  types of people are, you
• 24:11
  know, responding to
• 24:12
  them in different ways.
• 24:13
  You know, my tinfoil hat is,
• 24:14
  is, uh, is with you on that.
• 24:15
  So I get it.
• 24:17
  That, that leads into
• 24:17
  something interesting.
• 24:18
  Um, so I'm skipping, I'm skipping ahead a
• 24:20
  little bit with this
• 24:21
  one, which is how you
• 24:22
  think about actually testing the pages.
• 24:25
  Like how do they get into the ad account?
• 24:28
  And like, you know, are you, when do you
• 24:31
  decide to actually use an
• 24:31
  IntelliGems on the backend
• 24:32
  versus not?
• 24:33
  Yeah.
• 24:33
  Usually it's just content
• 24:35
  swaps now for the most part.
• 24:37
  Like we're just, we're, we're, we're
• 24:38
  adding a new element or
• 24:39
  we're adding potentially
• 24:40
  like a whole different, like a 10 reasons
• 24:42
  why listicle that
• 24:43
  pushes you to the PDP versus
• 24:45
  a 10 reasons why listicle that, that has
• 24:47
  the buy box or the whole PDP below it.
• 24:49
  That's when we're using IntelliGems where
• 24:51
  we're taking kind of
• 24:51
  swings like that or we're
• 24:53
  launching things.
• 24:54
  I mean, again, with the creative volume
• 24:57
  you have with, with the
• 24:58
  spend volume, you have
• 25:00
  the ability to test more.
• 25:01
  So I'm in a little bit of
• 25:02
  a unique scenario there.
• 25:04
  We're just because we just have to launch
• 25:05
  so much shit every
• 25:06
  week to keep up because
• 25:07
  just so many things burn out.
• 25:08
  So we're launching like realistically,
• 25:11
  probably three net new
• 25:14
  landing page funnels a week.
• 25:16
  I'd say around that number feels right.
• 25:19
  For Mars, I'd say we're a bit, a bit less
• 25:21
  than that for hollow,
• 25:22
  maybe one to two a week
• 25:23
  for hollow net new landers.
• 25:26
  And yeah, we just launch
• 25:26
  them like we normally would.
• 25:27
  So it's like, depending on the products,
• 25:29
  it will go on a different campaign.
• 25:31
  And then, or depending on the funnel,
• 25:32
  it'll go on a different campaign.
• 25:34
  If we have them broken out by pillar, not
• 25:37
  sometimes we do that, sometimes we don't.
• 25:39
  And then it'll just go into its own ad
• 25:40
  set with its own
• 25:40
  budget, just like it normally
• 25:42
  would with like a creative test.
• 25:44
  Yeah.
• 25:44
  We've, we've played around a lot with
• 25:47
  like with it when it's a net new page.
• 25:48
  So like we like to build around, like
• 25:51
  start with the ad as the insight.
• 25:52
  It's like, okay, what can we,
• 25:53
  what can we build off of this?
• 25:54
  And how do we make a page based on this?
• 25:56
  And usually it's like, can you actually
• 25:58
  build it from one specific ad?
• 25:59
  Now, you know, obviously if you can look
• 26:01
  at the entirety of
• 26:02
  your ad account and say to
• 26:03
  the pillar point that you're making, if
• 26:05
  there's a bunch of
• 26:05
  different things that could benefit
• 26:06
  from a more specific page, great.
• 26:09
  We've, we've been
• 26:11
  rolling out landing page tests.
• 26:12
  We'll start with like an ad, right?
• 26:14
  So the one I referenced earlier in the
• 26:15
  tweet that I was talking
• 26:15
  about, that was built off
• 26:17
  of one founder ad that had some very
• 26:18
  specific insights about
• 26:19
  the delivery of that ad.
• 26:20
  What that specific ad was saying, we just
• 26:23
  duplicated it in
• 26:24
  within the same campaign,
• 26:25
  same ad set, and just let meta dictate
• 26:27
  the spend between it.
• 26:28
  And that landing page literally,
• 26:30
  literally the next day was
• 26:31
  spending more than the PDP
• 26:33
  and continue to scale
• 26:34
  well in excess of it.
• 26:36
  But we've also had other wins where like
• 26:38
  we've winning to me with
• 26:40
  landing pages is not just
• 26:42
  it spends more or performs better or is
• 26:44
  more efficient than the other page.
• 26:46
  It's like, can you add net new spend
• 26:48
  volume to the ad account?
• 26:49
  So an example of this recently is if we
• 26:52
  had, we had, if I'm using
• 26:53
  my hands to describe this,
• 26:56
  it's like you have a, if your spend
• 26:57
  volume is 100%, your
• 26:59
  current funnel is set up to get
• 27:00
  you 100% to spend or whatever you spent,
• 27:03
  maybe I should use a dollar amount.
• 27:04
  You're spending 5k a day on this funnel
• 27:06
  and you launch a lander,
• 27:07
  you have, you have your
• 27:08
  PDP is spending 5k a day.
• 27:09
  You launch a lander and it adds 1k a day.
• 27:12
  As long as it goes up to 6k a day and
• 27:14
  spend and adds that new
• 27:15
  volume to me, that's a
• 27:16
  win because you're, you're, again, you're
• 27:17
  kind of meeting
• 27:18
  different people where they're
• 27:18
  at.
• 27:19
  Like that, that's a win.
• 27:20
  It's not about just like
• 27:21
  getting, getting an excess.
• 27:22
  And that's why I like duplicating the
• 27:25
  existing ads and letting
• 27:26
  them, letting meta dictate
• 27:27
  the spend between them
• 27:28
  because it shifts over time.
• 27:30
  Like I was looking at an ad account the
• 27:31
  other day where it's
• 27:32
  like, we launched a quiz, it
• 27:33
  took over, then it fell back.
• 27:35
  Then I take it over again.
• 27:36
  Like it just keeps going in and out
• 27:37
  depending on the season.
• 27:38
  Now, I don't know if there's like an
• 27:39
  actual seasonal reason for
• 27:40
  the change, but it's just
• 27:43
  ads, the landing pages and how they
• 27:44
  perform shifts over time.
• 27:46
  So as much as possible, I try to like
• 27:48
  leave things on, but I'm
• 27:49
  also the, I'm also a little
• 27:50
  bit of a CBO leave things on Maxie.
• 27:52
  So yeah, that's probably part of it.
• 27:54
  I think you're right for the most part.
• 27:55
  I think we're just a little extra
• 27:57
  critical of, because we
• 27:59
  have so much volume of creative
• 28:00
  going in.
• 28:01
  It's like, okay, if we're, if we're, if
• 28:03
  we have to launch this
• 28:05
  to validate the creative,
• 28:05
  we might as well try to match the page to
• 28:08
  it versus just like
• 28:08
  duping it again and trying
• 28:10
  it to go to another one
• 28:11
  that might not be as congruent.
• 28:13
  So I think generally you're
• 28:14
  right in thinking that way.
• 28:15
  And the whole idea of adding incremental
• 28:18
  spend is the goal at the end of the day.
• 28:19
  I mean, like, yeah, you might get a
• 28:20
  landing page of five
• 28:21
  reasons that outperforms your
• 28:22
  PDP.
• 28:23
  If you have a set monthly budget that you
• 28:24
  can spend into because
• 28:25
  of inventory constraints
• 28:26
  or whatever, sure.
• 28:27
  Great.
• 28:27
  Huge win to get
• 28:28
  incremental, you know, raw as lift.
• 28:30
  But the whole idea of
• 28:33
  this is building new funnels.
• 28:34
  So you get more scale.
• 28:36
  Yeah.
• 28:36
  Yeah.
• 28:36
  That's how we do it.
• 28:37
  If you, yeah, if you're, if you're going
• 28:38
  to try to launch, you,
• 28:39
  you make, um, you're,
• 28:40
  you're looking at your, your pillar and
• 28:42
  you're trying, it's like,
• 28:42
  okay, we got one piece of
• 28:43
  creative.
• 28:44
  Now we need to launch it to the three
• 28:45
  different variants of
• 28:46
  landing pages that we have live.
• 28:47
  Like all of a sudden you have, you know,
• 28:48
  you have to analyze
• 28:49
  performance on that, that
• 28:50
  same piece of
• 28:50
  creative, those landing pages.
• 28:52
  And it's a, I mean, it's a lot, a lot of
• 28:54
  work on top of the fact,
• 28:54
  like, is there actually
• 28:55
  marginal benefit in that?
• 28:57
  You know, debatable.
• 28:59
  Yeah.
• 28:59
  I would agree.
• 29:00
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  How long are you letting things rip then?
• 29:03
  Like how, what is, what is your actual
• 29:05
  test and your patience for those?
• 29:07
  What does this test look like?
• 29:08
  Yeah.
• 29:08
  It changes.
• 29:09
  It changes all the time.
• 29:10
  I feel like sometimes
• 29:11
  we, we are more patient.
• 29:12
  Sometimes we're not.
• 29:13
  I think, I think at the spend threshold
• 29:15
  that Mars is at
• 29:16
  specifically now, things are just
• 29:17
  burning out so quickly that we, we turn
• 29:19
  them off fairly quick.
• 29:21
  So like, I mean, if we're not seeing the
• 29:23
  numbers that we want
• 29:24
  in like 48 hours, like
• 29:26
  we're usually killing that, that ad.
• 29:28
  Um, and when it comes to landing pages,
• 29:31
  it's like we, if this is
• 29:32
  something that we've done,
• 29:33
  if the ad does work or doesn't work,
• 29:35
  we'll duplicate it over
• 29:36
  to a different funnel for
• 29:38
  us.
• 29:38
  It might be quiz or PDP and then we'll
• 29:40
  launch it in a, what we
• 29:41
  like the graveyard concepts,
• 29:43
  graveyard campaign, um, with a cost
• 29:45
  control and see if then that works.
• 29:47
  Cause it's like, was it actually the
• 29:48
  creative problem or was
• 29:49
  the landing page problem that
• 29:50
  it was going to?
• 29:51
  So we do that a lot if, if like the soft
• 29:53
  metrics on the creative
• 29:54
  looks good, but the performance
• 29:55
  of shit.
• 29:56
  So that is like the other
• 29:58
  way that we think about it.
• 29:59
  We're pretty hot to kill things, but it
• 30:01
  doesn't mean we're not
• 30:02
  going to do that and throw
• 30:03
  it in the cost control campaign and see
• 30:04
  if we can get some more steel out of it.
• 30:06
  Um, going to a different page.
• 30:07
  Yeah.
• 30:08
  And then I'm, I think going this, this
• 30:11
  rolls nicely into
• 30:11
  reporting, but before we do that,
• 30:13
  um, Jordan and I, George, my business
• 30:16
  partner, uh, for those
• 30:17
  that don't know, um, we've
• 30:19
  been, we've been like flirting with this
• 30:22
  idea of like the persona
• 30:24
  specific PDP, um, because
• 30:27
  PDPs can still work really well.
• 30:28
  And I know, um, I've talked to a bunch of
• 30:31
  people in the space
• 30:31
  and like just expanding
• 30:32
  your PDP and giving more information that
• 30:34
  answers questions and
• 30:35
  customizing your product
• 30:36
  photos to, um, you know, I, I know you,
• 30:38
  you gave that insight
• 30:39
  and then all of a sudden,
• 30:41
  like last year and now everybody's
• 30:42
  product page, their
• 30:43
  carousel has a bunch of images that
• 30:44
  are dialed in a certain way.
• 30:46
  Like, have you, have you flirted with the
• 30:47
  idea of just like
• 30:48
  making the product page a
• 30:50
  little bit more persona specific?
• 30:51
  Like, okay, we just changed
• 30:52
  the product title to match.
• 30:54
  It's like, I mean, you, you've, the
• 30:55
  extreme version of this
• 30:56
  with hollow is like compression
• 30:58
  works.
• 30:58
  So we made fucking impression socks.
• 30:59
  Yeah.
• 31:00
  Yeah.
• 31:00
  It's like, right.
• 31:01
  Right.
• 31:01
  So you just do go the
• 31:02
  product route, but right.
• 31:04
  No, this is exactly, this is the next
• 31:06
  level of where we're at now for more.
• 31:08
  So it's like, we've taken the ad to
• 31:12
  landing page congruency.
• 31:13
  We've got that.
• 31:14
  Now we move, now we move the
• 31:16
  PDP to the bottom of the page.
• 31:18
  Does that perform
• 31:18
  better than pushing the PDP?
• 31:20
  Let's say it does.
• 31:21
  Now it's much easier to edit that quote
• 31:23
  unquote PDP section if
• 31:25
  it's all one long funnel.
• 31:27
  And I think this is the one
• 31:28
  that was really interesting.
• 31:29
  I would, I used to look at, at brands
• 31:30
  like, um, even grooms a
• 31:32
  little bit, but, um, primal
• 31:33
  queen.
• 31:33
  I'm like, these pages are so long.
• 31:36
  How do, how do that many customers get
• 31:38
  through this whole page?
• 31:39
  I think if, if, if the content is right
• 31:41
  and it's relevant, I
• 31:43
  don't think the length of
• 31:44
  the page is actually going
• 31:45
  to hurt to a certain degree.
• 31:46
  It's not going to hurt general conversion
• 31:48
  rate if it's congruent.
• 31:50
  If you're talking about weight loss and
• 31:52
  then you go to a page and
• 31:53
  it's 10 reasons why this
• 31:54
  product is going to help with weight loss
• 31:56
  this season, dah, dah,
• 31:57
  dah, dah, 10 reasons.
• 31:58
  Great.
• 31:58
  And then you get into a product page
• 32:00
  section and it's like the
• 32:01
  weight, the best weight loss
• 32:02
  products.
• 32:03
  Here's your discount.
• 32:04
  Da, da, da.
• 32:04
  Right.
• 32:05
  I think, and then all
• 32:06
  the carousel images match.
• 32:07
  Why would that not do better?
• 32:08
  So that's where we're at now where we are
• 32:11
  starting to, to, to
• 32:12
  tinker with actual clinical
• 32:14
  PDP because obviously we're signal SKU,
• 32:17
  which helps us do that
• 32:18
  much easier than if you're,
• 32:19
  you know, 10,000 SKU apparel company.
• 32:22
  Yeah.
• 32:23
  Yeah.
• 32:23
  I mean, if you've got people that are
• 32:24
  like, they want to solve
• 32:25
  a problem so badly, you've
• 32:27
  got them captivated.
• 32:28
  Like they're going to continue to read
• 32:29
  until you give them the solution.
• 32:30
  I think, I think I
• 32:31
  told you guys separately.
• 32:32
  I saw this insane ad from Dr. Gundry,
• 32:35
  which I think is golden hippo.
• 32:37
  It's a golden hippo brand.
• 32:38
  If I'm not mistaken.
• 32:38
  Yeah.
• 32:39
  I think so.
• 32:39
  Dude, like I clicked
• 32:40
  the ad on, on Twitter.
• 32:41
  Cause I was like, this
• 32:42
  is going to be insane.
• 32:42
  And I clicked it.
• 32:43
  And the only, like, it's a five minute
• 32:45
  VSL and you have to watch it.
• 32:47
  It's actually more than five minutes.
• 32:48
  I'm pretty sure.
• 32:48
  You have to watch the video.
• 32:50
  You can't do anything else on the page,
• 32:51
  but watch the video.
• 32:52
  And at some point I
• 32:53
  couldn't even wait that long.
• 32:54
  I literally tried to leave my phone.
• 32:55
  I was like, I can't wait anymore.
• 32:56
  I was like, abandoned the page.
• 32:58
  It was like, you have to watch the whole
• 32:59
  thing and then get to the point.
• 33:00
  Now, I'm not trying to get sued by
• 33:03
  anybody by saying crazy
• 33:04
  things, but like they're promising
• 33:05
  some pretty insane things.
• 33:06
  And so like the person who's watching
• 33:07
  that is like desperate for a solution.
• 33:10
  And so like, they're going
• 33:10
  to watch the whole thing.
• 33:11
  And like, you know, people talk about
• 33:14
  like levels of interest.
• 33:14
  Like there's people who sit down and
• 33:16
  watch a three hour
• 33:16
  podcast and like, it's cause
• 33:18
  they're interested in it.
• 33:18
  Like they'll sit through the whole thing
• 33:20
  and they'll stop when
• 33:20
  they don't want to read
• 33:21
  it anymore.
• 33:22
  That's the interesting thing about pages
• 33:23
  is you can just like,
• 33:24
  yeah, progressively build,
• 33:25
  build more and more as long as it's not
• 33:26
  like killing your page load speed and all
• 33:29
  that good stuff.
• 33:29
  So yeah.
• 33:30
  Yeah.
• 33:31
  We've tried VSL's failed.
• 33:34
  I think we'll try it again.
• 33:34
  I think we'll try it again, but we, we
• 33:37
  didn't crack it the first go at it.
• 33:39
  So it's something interesting that my
• 33:41
  lessons from the VSL,
• 33:42
  like going down the rabbit
• 33:43
  hole is you just, you
• 33:44
  basically just push up an insane AOV.
• 33:46
  That's the whole entire.
• 33:47
  So it's like, you can get someone to
• 33:48
  watch 45 minutes of a
• 33:50
  video before you finally
• 33:51
  present the solution
• 33:52
  as this magical capsule.
• 33:55
  You need them because you've had so much
• 33:57
  drop off throughout that.
• 33:58
  You need that customer to buy this insane
• 34:01
  AOV bundle, which is
• 34:02
  usually just like a bunch
• 34:03
  of crazy post-purchase upsells, like
• 34:05
  stacked after another.
• 34:06
  So, and unless you can do that, like the,
• 34:09
  the full blown VSL
• 34:10
  situation just doesn't make
• 34:12
  a ton of sense, which is kind of why we
• 34:14
  killed it to some degree.
• 34:15
  Yeah.
• 34:15
  Is there anything related to, I know I
• 34:17
  still want to hit on reporting.
• 34:18
  Is there anything related to like
• 34:20
  merchandising offers, how it
• 34:22
  shows up in the product page
• 34:23
  post-purchase that like you think is
• 34:25
  worth hammering through really quick?
• 34:26
  I can't think of
• 34:27
  anything off the top of my head.
• 34:29
  We, we did some questions
• 34:31
  post-purchase around here.
• 34:33
  Here's one that's interesting.
• 34:35
  In our quiz, we ask a really interesting
• 34:37
  question as like one of them.
• 34:39
  I won't say necessarily which one because
• 34:40
  I don't want everyone
• 34:41
  to steal and shit, but
• 34:42
  we ask an interesting
• 34:43
  question in the quiz.
• 34:44
  And that question has given me so many
• 34:46
  ideas for new pillars
• 34:49
  because we leave it like we
• 34:50
  kind of leave it open-ended.
• 34:52
  There's, there's actual prompts, but like
• 34:54
  it's open-ended
• 34:55
  enough the way that we let
• 34:57
  them fill it out that I think it's, it's
• 34:59
  been really interesting.
• 35:00
  So I would say like, if you feel like
• 35:02
  you're getting stuck
• 35:03
  with, Hey, I don't know what
• 35:04
  pillars to go build for creative or even
• 35:06
  for landers, build a
• 35:07
  quiz and ask a question that
• 35:09
  like prompts these people that don't know
• 35:12
  much about your brand
• 35:12
  or your product yet to
• 35:13
  like give you some feedback and you might
• 35:15
  come up with
• 35:16
  something really interesting.
• 35:16
  So that's one that's been, I'll just say
• 35:19
  is like a teaser of something that's been
• 35:21
  generating interesting ideas for me and
• 35:24
  coming up with new, new
• 35:25
  concepts for, for new pillars.
• 35:27
  Yeah.
• 35:27
  Does your quiz builder, I know you use
• 35:29
  something else and you
• 35:30
  guys recently switched.
• 35:31
  Does it tell you like, are you guys
• 35:33
  paying attention to who
• 35:34
  ends up buying and how they
• 35:35
  answer the questions and
• 35:36
  then using that information?
• 35:38
  Cause like you can get, like you have the
• 35:39
  quiz answers in
• 35:40
  aggregate, but like the most useful
• 35:42
  ones are the people that ended up buying.
• 35:43
  Right.
• 35:44
  And obviously you can see where drop-off
• 35:45
  looks like and things like that.
• 35:46
  But if you, cause like post-purchases,
• 35:49
  it's also a very different experience.
• 35:50
  Like this person also bought, they
• 35:51
  self-selected and they're
• 35:52
  kind of, they may be answering
• 35:53
  it different than pre-purchase.
• 35:55
  So it was like, there's almost value in
• 35:57
  understanding what the
• 35:58
  people who didn't buy said.
• 36:00
  And then also, okay, the people who did
• 36:02
  buy, how did they
• 36:03
  answer these, these questions
• 36:04
  and just filtering it
• 36:05
  by purchaser actually.
• 36:07
  Don't have that data, but
• 36:08
  we're going to figure that out.
• 36:09
  Cause that's super interesting.
• 36:11
  That's super interesting.
• 36:12
  Yeah.
• 36:12
  I mostly look at like.
• 36:13
  It's a little bit from both.
• 36:14
  Yeah.
• 36:14
  I mean, right now I'm kind of going down
• 36:16
  the rabbit hole of like
• 36:17
  hacking the drop-off rate.
• 36:19
  I'm looking at like drop-off by question
• 36:21
  and I'm like, okay,
• 36:21
  what can I change this,
• 36:22
  this slide or question to be so I can
• 36:25
  keep the progression,
• 36:26
  progression happening.
• 36:29
  That's mostly where my time is spent
• 36:30
  right now in the quiz.
• 36:31
  It's just like thinking about those
• 36:33
  drop-off rates and figuring
• 36:34
  out what about that question
• 36:35
  or what about the answers that, that they
• 36:38
  have as options to
• 36:39
  select or slowing them down
• 36:41
  or making them bored and
• 36:42
  saying, this is too many questions.
• 36:45
  But yeah, that would be pretty, that'd be
• 36:47
  pretty important information to get.
• 36:48
  Yeah.
• 36:49
  Yeah.
• 36:49
  I mean, I've seen some
• 36:50
  insanely long quizzes.
• 36:51
  I'm always surprised by like, I don't
• 36:53
  know, this idea of
• 36:54
  friction, like people, people,
• 36:55
  I feel like people are really coming
• 36:56
  around to thinking that like
• 36:57
  friction is not necessarily
• 36:58
  a bad thing.
• 36:59
  Especially with quizzes.
• 37:00
  Cause like quizzes are
• 37:01
  like starting to self-select.
• 37:03
  Maybe it's the open loop concept.
• 37:04
  I said that on a call today.
• 37:05
  It was super cringy.
• 37:06
  Um, it's like the open loop of like,
• 37:08
  okay, I want the answer.
• 37:09
  I got started this.
• 37:10
  I want to know what
• 37:11
  it's going to tell me.
• 37:11
  I want to know what the answer is.
• 37:12
  I want this like miracle thing that I
• 37:14
  could take to solve all my problems.
• 37:15
  Um, but yeah, uh, well, they'll have to
• 37:19
  tell me how that goes.
• 37:19
  Cause now I'm, now I'm invested.
• 37:21
  Yeah.
• 37:21
  Okay.
• 37:23
  Uh, that rolls really nicely into like
• 37:25
  landing page reporting and
• 37:26
  how you're thinking about,
• 37:27
  um, reporting.
• 37:28
  You kind of talked about the reports that
• 37:29
  you just built out that you,
• 37:30
  you found really interesting.
• 37:32
  Um, I'll just really quickly say a couple
• 37:34
  of things that I pay attention to from a,
• 37:36
  landing page reporting perspective.
• 37:38
  And then I know there's a lot more that I
• 37:40
  would like to dig
• 37:40
  further into, but, um, because
• 37:43
  of the way that we launched tests in CBO,
• 37:45
  spend velocity is like
• 37:47
  aggregate spend for that
• 37:49
  funnel, um, or that product or that
• 37:50
  campaign is one thing.
• 37:52
  Spend velocity is another thing.
• 37:54
  And then once we start to see some
• 37:55
  validation, that's where I'm
• 37:56
  going and I'm looking at the
• 37:57
  heat maps and I'm saying, okay, this is
• 37:59
  how far people are making down the page.
• 38:00
  Here's what people
• 38:00
  are clicking most often.
• 38:01
  And I'll give one specific
• 38:03
  tactical thing that came out.
• 38:04
  Like you should watch,
• 38:05
  you should watch recordings.
• 38:06
  It's really helpful to watch recordings.
• 38:08
  We ran a quiz funnel on time and I
• 38:12
  started watching recordings.
• 38:12
  I watched fucking 20 in a row.
• 38:14
  Nobody took the quiz.
• 38:16
  It's like, it's working and it was
• 38:18
  converting insanely well.
• 38:19
  Nobody was taking the quiz.
• 38:20
  Literally nobody.
• 38:21
  We added a shop the product button.
• 38:24
  It said, start the quiz or shop the
• 38:27
  product right below it.
• 38:28
  Uh, that literally revenue per session
• 38:29
  went up, uh, 20% by just adding that.
• 38:32
  Cause like, and if you don't want to take
• 38:33
  the quiz, cool, you can
• 38:34
  go to the product page
• 38:35
  and check it out.
• 38:35
  Um, and then the people that
• 38:36
  want to take the quiz, great.
• 38:37
  Like that was, so, um, I watched the
• 38:39
  recordings and that's kind
• 38:40
  of like, uh, the recordings
• 38:41
  are tricky cause, um, small samples and
• 38:43
  it's, you know, um, easy
• 38:45
  to get distracted by that.
• 38:46
  But, um, total spend, spend velocity are
• 38:49
  kind of some core
• 38:49
  things that I pay attention
• 38:50
  to.
• 38:50
  Um, what else are you looking at as
• 38:52
  you're evaluating landing page reporting?
• 38:54
  Yeah.
• 38:55
  I mean, the biggest one is the creative
• 38:56
  that's going to that landing page.
• 38:57
  I kind of talked about it earlier.
• 38:59
  It's like, start with the landing page
• 39:01
  URL, see how performance is.
• 39:03
  Is it, is it beating baseline versus the
• 39:05
  rest of the account?
• 39:06
  What does the spend volume versus the
• 39:08
  rest of the account?
• 39:08
  Which then gives you some indication of
• 39:10
  like, okay, maybe there's
• 39:11
  some ability for the raws
• 39:13
  to be slightly lower on that.
• 39:14
  If they're, if you're
• 39:15
  getting more scale out of it.
• 39:16
  And then what are the actual ads that are
• 39:18
  performing for that later?
• 39:20
  That is the main thing I'm paying
• 39:21
  attention to right now.
• 39:22
  Um, I think like the content on the page,
• 39:26
  watching screen
• 39:26
  recordings, watching heat maps
• 39:28
  or like looking at
• 39:29
  heat maps or click maps.
• 39:30
  I think that's like the next level.
• 39:32
  Um, but because we're launching so many
• 39:34
  new ones and we're trying
• 39:35
  to build this concurrency
• 39:36
  thing, I'm mostly just trying to figure
• 39:37
  out like, what are the
• 39:39
  ads are actually working
• 39:40
  within this later?
• 39:41
  Which are the ones that are not, that are
• 39:42
  getting a bunch of
• 39:43
  spend that we, that are
• 39:45
  kind of like failing at that
• 39:46
  combination of concurrency.
• 39:47
  So that's mostly it.
• 39:49
  I don't really have anything else.
• 39:50
  Super, super special.
• 39:51
  We, we built like this thing that kind of
• 39:53
  shows them on like a chart format.
• 39:55
  So I can watch landers like, uh, scale
• 39:58
  or, or fall off
• 39:59
  throughout periods of time.
• 40:00
  And then also this like scatterplot kind
• 40:02
  of version, which then
• 40:03
  breaks it out by like,
• 40:04
  um, spend and then ROAS.
• 40:06
  So it's like, you can kind of figure out
• 40:08
  like, okay, the ROAS kind
• 40:10
  of degrades, but then some
• 40:11
  of these like landers have
• 40:12
  a lot more scale to them.
• 40:13
  So it's easier to kind
• 40:14
  of identify those winners.
• 40:16
  Again, nothing too crazy.
• 40:18
  Um, mostly just like the, that combo of
• 40:21
  what ad is actually not
• 40:23
  working for this very specific
• 40:25
  lander.
• 40:25
  Um, yeah.
• 40:26
  Well, it feels like getting into like
• 40:28
  metrics, like bounce rate
• 40:29
  and obviously like revenue
• 40:30
  procession, profit procession, conversion
• 40:32
  rate, those things are
• 40:32
  like helpful, but it's like,
• 40:35
  you need a, you need a success metric
• 40:36
  first, which is maybe
• 40:37
  total spend, spend velocity,
• 40:39
  actual efficiency.
• 40:40
  It's like, that's gonna be way more
• 40:41
  insightful than looking at a bounce rate.
• 40:43
  Well, it's like bounce rate might not
• 40:45
  actually tell you anything
• 40:46
  like, you know, the, when
• 40:48
  the test that I talked about earlier, um,
• 40:50
  going from a PDP to a
• 40:51
  listicle bounce rate dropped
• 40:52
  a lot, which was, that's a helpful
• 40:54
  insight, but like it
• 40:55
  also just performed better.
• 40:56
  I didn't need bounce rate to tell me that
• 40:57
  it's like, okay, people are
• 40:58
  spending more time reading
• 40:59
  the content on the page.
• 41:00
  Great.
• 41:01
  Um, you know, but it's bounce rate that
• 41:02
  like, what is bounce
• 41:03
  rate going to tell me that,
• 41:04
  um, that spend velocity didn't, um, is,
• 41:07
  uh, is something that
• 41:08
  I've been thinking a
• 41:09
  lot about.
• 41:09
  Like if you, if you're doing nothing,
• 41:11
  like you're, you're,
• 41:11
  you're listening to this and
• 41:12
  you're like, I bought it.
• 41:13
  Like, yes, sign me up.
• 41:14
  I would love to test landing pages.
• 41:16
  How do I do it?
• 41:17
  Um, I think it's kind of daunting.
• 41:18
  Um, I know like AI is making it
• 41:20
  progressively less daunting
• 41:21
  to get pages rolled out, which
• 41:23
  is great.
• 41:23
  But is there any place that you would
• 41:25
  suggest people go to start?
• 41:26
  And a caveat to that is like, why, why do
• 41:29
  you think it takes most brands forever to
• 41:31
  build and test and deploy a landing page?
• 41:33
  Like our CRO agency is
• 41:35
  just like super slow.
• 41:36
  Um, are they like, what, what's yeah.
• 41:38
  Um, how would you start?
• 41:39
  What's preventing people
• 41:40
  from just like launching pages?
• 41:41
  The answer is like, it's not that hard
• 41:43
  anymore, but you do need
• 41:45
  to do, you need to put all
• 41:46
  the pieces together correctly, which is
• 41:48
  the template has to be correct.
• 41:50
  And it needs to be
• 41:51
  like a winning template.
• 41:52
  What would I do there?
• 41:53
  Go look at in motion in any of your
• 41:56
  favorite tools, go look at
• 41:57
  the brands that are spending
• 41:58
  the most, any trend track, any, any of
• 42:01
  these tools that can
• 42:01
  like scrape things, go find
• 42:03
  the brands that are spending the most
• 42:03
  that are pushing traffic.
• 42:05
  Most of them have the same looking
• 42:06
  templates for the most
• 42:07
  part, especially for listicles.
• 42:09
  Just copy that, like start
• 42:11
  there, copy that template.
• 42:12
  So many people have
• 42:13
  copied ours already, right?
• 42:14
  Hollow, Marsman, it's whatever.
• 42:16
  It is what it is.
• 42:16
  Template, I don't really care about.
• 42:18
  Copy it away.
• 42:19
  Then really what it comes down to is just
• 42:21
  copywriting and copywriting
• 42:25
  and then the images that go
• 42:26
  with the pages.
• 42:27
  I think the
• 42:28
  copywriting is the hardest part.
• 42:29
  I think writing good copy is much harder
• 42:32
  than people make it out to be.
• 42:34
  Throwing it into quad without a ton of
• 42:37
  pre-prompting is going to
• 42:38
  get you shit copy with a bunch
• 42:40
  of M dashes.
• 42:41
  And like, I think
• 42:41
  people see into that now.
• 42:42
  So I think doing copyright is hard.
• 42:46
  And I think that's probably like the
• 42:48
  biggest thing that slows things down.
• 42:49
  And then if a brand is very brand
• 42:51
  forward, they want
• 42:51
  everything like designed to match
• 42:53
  brand standard.
• 42:54
  That's another thing
• 42:55
  that can slow shit down.
• 42:56
  So I think the one thing that I always
• 42:57
  say is like your landing
• 42:58
  pages can definitely be
• 42:59
  uglier than your website and your ads can
• 43:01
  be even uglier than your landing pages.
• 43:03
  So like be okay with a little bit of
• 43:05
  like, yeah, use your brand
• 43:06
  font, use your brand colors,
• 43:08
  use those things.
• 43:09
  But like if it's not
• 43:10
  perfect, get started.