Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / IS THERE JUSTICE FOR 3 LITTLE GIRL SCOUTS, RAPED & MURDERED AT CAMP?

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IS THERE JUSTICE FOR 3 LITTLE GIRL SCOUTS, RAPED & MURDERED AT CAMP? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Three little girl scouts, ages eight, nine,
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Speaker 1: and ten yanked from their tents in the middle of
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Speaker 1: a rainy summer night, horribly raped and murtyred. The only
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Speaker 1: named suspect, Jane Hart, tried and acquitted. This case goes
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Speaker 1: unsolved nearly fifty years until a local high school teacher
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Speaker 1: uncovers four potential suspects, igniting I knew investigation, I Nancy Grace,
0:51
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
0:53
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious leven. This week we
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Speaker 1: follow the exclusion seventy Fox Nation series and the Girls
1:02
Speaker 1: Scout murders. First of all, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: These woods in northeastern Oklahoma are the site of one
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Speaker 1: of the worst crimes imaginable. Two busloads of girl Scouts
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Speaker 1: left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott, a girl Scout retreat
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Speaker 1: located on the Cherokee Reservation some fifty miles away. Among
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Speaker 1: the girls were ten year old Denise Milner, nine year
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Speaker 1: old Michelle Gouse an eight year old Laurie Farmer. What
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Speaker 1: happened next is unthinkable. Three young girls being sexually assaulted, murdered.
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Speaker 1: There are children's names you always remember Laurie and Denisa Michelle.
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Speaker 1: They're there and they're never going to go away with me.
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Speaker 1: Right now, very special guest to my own heart. This
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Speaker 1: is Laurie Lee Farmer's mother. Laurie Lee just eight years
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Speaker 1: old when she was murdered during the Girl's Scout murders.
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Speaker 1: Miss Sherry Farmer is with us. Miss Farmer. Thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. Thank you so much. I don't
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Speaker 1: feel right about you thanking me. I'm just sorry for
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Speaker 1: what you have gone through, not just at the time,
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Speaker 1: but all these years since then, dealing with the murderer
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Speaker 1: of your eight year old girl, probably replaying it in
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Speaker 1: your mind over and over, what happened to her before
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Speaker 1: her murder, the identification of Jean Hart, the trial, the acquittal,
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Speaker 1: and now the possibility that other people are responsible for
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Speaker 1: your daughter's murder and they are walking amongst us, living
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Speaker 1: and breathing. It. Just I don't know how you keep going,
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Speaker 1: Miss Farmer. First of all, let me ask you what
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Speaker 1: you recall of the moment you sent your daughter a
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Speaker 1: girl Scout camp and then learned what had happened. Well,
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Speaker 1: of course it plays out like a movie, as you
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Speaker 1: know yourself. We actually my husband received a phone call
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Speaker 1: at the hospital where he is a physician, and was
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Speaker 1: told over the phone, and he was not told that
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Speaker 1: she had been murdered, just that she had died in
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Speaker 1: the night. So it took throughout that day to piece
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Speaker 1: together what really happened. We had no idea for cause
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Speaker 1: of death or that two other children had also been murdered,
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Speaker 1: So that is a hard, strange way to learn about
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Speaker 1: your daughter's murder. We from the very first were very
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Speaker 1: active and involved and searching for the suspect, all of
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Speaker 1: the work with the USBI, the sheriff's office, the district
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Speaker 1: attorney's office, and from really that very beginning. For some reason,
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Speaker 1: though and I felt we needed to be very vocal,
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Speaker 1: and here we are forty five years later and we
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Speaker 1: still feel that same way. We thought it was important
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Speaker 1: for Laurie and for justice, so throughout that they searched
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Speaker 1: for heart for ten months, and that it was another
5:01
Speaker 1: year before a trial, and yes we were at the
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Speaker 1: trial every day and into the not guilty verdict. We
5:12
Speaker 1: did feel like that we wanted to do something positive
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Speaker 1: and we always have felt that way to that Laurie's
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Speaker 1: life and what she stood for and what we stood
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Speaker 1: for as a family that something positive and good needed
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Speaker 1: to come from her life. Miss Farmer. After my fiance's murderer,
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Speaker 1: I thought I knew it all about pain and suffering
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Speaker 1: in grief. It was right for our wedding, and it
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Speaker 1: took me, sadly, well over twenty years before I could
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Speaker 1: even consider marriage right. It just my whole life was
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Speaker 1: spent grieving and fighting and never coming up for air,
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Speaker 1: not even once. I just don't know how you get
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Speaker 1: past that. And I've got to ask you a tough question.
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Speaker 1: Do you believe Jane Heart is guilty? I certainly believe
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Speaker 1: he was there, and yes, I do believe that. It
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Speaker 1: has taken me a long time to come to that point.
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Speaker 1: I don't know that I am convinced there is no
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Speaker 1: one else who was thicker. Why are you convinced Heart
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Speaker 1: was part of it? The evidence, a lot of it
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Speaker 1: certainly is circumstantial, But like I said, it's over the years.
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Speaker 1: I didn't come to that conclusion just immediately, but now,
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Speaker 1: through all the things that has happened in their case
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Speaker 1: over the years. It's not like it was investigated then
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Speaker 1: and suddenly now. Thanks if happened in our case throughout
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Speaker 1: these years, that are not publicized, and I feel like
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Speaker 1: that the investigators have been good about keeping going I informed,
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Speaker 1: and we don't go to the news media and talk
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Speaker 1: about it every time there is I call it another
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Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle. But and we have appreciated that
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Speaker 1: as Fate started this process, she did invove us and
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Speaker 1: she kept us updated as to what they were doing,
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Speaker 1: and that's been really important to us. So I think
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Speaker 1: there are some questions about who was there, and we
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Speaker 1: are always open to any any new leads, are things
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Speaker 1: that might come up. All we have ever wanted from
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Speaker 1: the very first is the truth. We didn't jump on
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Speaker 1: a bad wagon that it had to be hard or
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Speaker 1: anyone else for that matter. We just have searched for
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Speaker 1: the truth. You know, Miss Farmer. For those of you
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Speaker 1: just tuning in, this is Lori Lee, Farmer's mother, her daughter,
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Speaker 1: Sherry's daughter. Lorial Lee was raped and murdered at the
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Speaker 1: tender age of eight. I've got to say, Miss Farmer again,
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Speaker 1: I thought I knew it all about grief, But now
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Speaker 1: that I finally have children, I don't think there could
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Speaker 1: be any grief worse in the world than losing your child.
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Speaker 1: And you are such a better person than me. You
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Speaker 1: have so much dignity and you're so calm. I think
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Speaker 1: I don't believe there was ever a prosecutor in intercity Atlanta.
8:55
Speaker 1: I'm more hated than me. I'm not proud. Just all
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Speaker 1: of that raw hurt and anger. Focus laser beam on
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Speaker 1: getting the right purpose. And you are saying you, of
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Speaker 1: all people, are saying you believe there could be other
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Speaker 1: suspects right now. I always pay attention to what a
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Speaker 1: victim's family thanks, because they, of all people, want the
9:32
Speaker 1: right guy behind bars. So if the family believes it,
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Speaker 1: then I believe it. I can't even imagine anyone ever
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Speaker 1: assuming that we would want anyone to be held accountable
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Speaker 1: for this crime who was not the guilty person. Absolutely,
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Speaker 1: because a it would be horrible to be responsible for
9:56
Speaker 1: a wrongful incarceration to live every dat ha ha ha.
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Speaker 1: I got the wrong person in jail who could live
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Speaker 1: with that? And the flip side of that coin is
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Speaker 1: the right person is out there walking free time stories
10:26
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. A lot of the reigniting of this
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Speaker 1: investigation has to do with a teacher, Faith Phillips, also
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Speaker 1: Cherokee screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down,
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Speaker 1: who became suspicious herself and began researching, began asking the questions,
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Speaker 1: Miss Farmer, how did you learn that Lori Lee have
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Speaker 1: been killed? As I said, my husband was called by
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Speaker 1: the director of Girl Scout, and then he and his
11:03
Speaker 1: partner came home and told me and Lourie was Actually
11:09
Speaker 1: I always think of her as nine because her birthday
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Speaker 1: was in five days, so you know, I know she's
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Speaker 1: referred to all the time as eight, but we were
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Speaker 1: preparing for her ninth birthday just five days away, and
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Speaker 1: she is our oldest child. Our children at that time
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Speaker 1: were Laurie, nine, seven, five, three and one. I always
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Speaker 1: wanted four children and we had five. Are you lucky
11:39
Speaker 1: lady regarding that many children? But regarding Laurie Lee, did
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Speaker 1: you call her Laurie Lee or Laurie mostly Laurie? Do
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Speaker 1: you remember that moment your husband told you that Laurie
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Speaker 1: had been killed? Well, he didn't say she had been killed,
11:57
Speaker 1: because we did not know that. He said Laurie had
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Speaker 1: died in the night. Right, So we are trying to
12:04
Speaker 1: figure out where were you sitting on the sofa in
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Speaker 1: the bedroom and the kitchen sink. We were in the
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Speaker 1: living room and he and his partner said, we need
12:15
Speaker 1: for you to sit down. Oh yeah, and I said, no,
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Speaker 1: I'm not sitting down, and Bow told me, and he looked.
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Speaker 1: He looked like I'd never ever seen him look before.
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Speaker 1: And then we spent next hours wondering what happened to
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Speaker 1: her and trying to reach the Girl's Scouts because we
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Speaker 1: assume that who knew what happened, but we did not know. Actually,
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Speaker 1: our neighbor, who had been with us a lot of
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Speaker 1: the time, said to us, I think there might have
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Speaker 1: been some violence involved, and we said, what, what, What
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Speaker 1: in the world do you leave? And he said, we
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Speaker 1: just got to get in touch with the Girl's Scouts
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Speaker 1: so that someone will come talk to you. And that
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Speaker 1: never happened. So eventually our neighbors and friends, as they
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Speaker 1: collected at our home were the ones who told us
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Speaker 1: that someone and that it was two other children. We
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Speaker 1: didn't know that either. You know, that's interesting to doctor
13:28
Speaker 1: Scott A. Johnson, forensics psychologists out of Minnesota. You can
13:31
Speaker 1: find it at Forensic Consultation, doctor Johnson. When I was
13:35
Speaker 1: first told that Keith, my fiance, was dead, I didn't
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Speaker 1: know any of the facts surround again him. Of course,
13:42
Speaker 1: I later learned he had been murdered. But I just
13:44
Speaker 1: assumed you've been in a car crash. And it wasn't
13:47
Speaker 1: until several hours later. I was at my local little
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Speaker 1: Methodist church and nowhere else to go, and I was
13:56
Speaker 1: sitting across a desk from our pastor and I saw
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Speaker 1: him writing I read it upside down Bernstein funeral, Hume,
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Speaker 1: that's what I need for sure, that Keith was dead.
14:05
Speaker 1: And he Billy told me Keith was murdered. Why is
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Speaker 1: it we try to look forward, just even subconsciously, for
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Speaker 1: a rational explanation. It's just the shock value. We do
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Speaker 1: not want to believe our loved ones one. And you
14:24
Speaker 1: certainly don't want to believe that it was nefarious, you know.
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Speaker 1: And I think that if you were not prepared, how
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Speaker 1: to health you prepared for that? You don't. And so
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Speaker 1: when we hear that news, our brain goes into protective mold.
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Speaker 1: You want to minimize and I and that's just the
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Speaker 1: self protective nature. Guys, take a listen to this. I
14:44
Speaker 1: was given the name of the three people whom I
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Speaker 1: and foreign Lish were involved in the murder count. One
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Speaker 1: of the suspects was given the job of going to
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Speaker 1: dump the vehicle, the murder weapons, and the bloody clothes.
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Speaker 1: I get this letter in my mailbox and I said, Paul,
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Speaker 1: I think you've got a fourth man. Paul Smith was
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Speaker 1: the sheriff of May's County after Pete Weaver. The day
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Speaker 1: he took office, he opens a file cabinet. All of
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Speaker 1: the files are gone. Sheriff Weaver's son said, well, I
15:21
Speaker 1: have a box of transcripts that my dad kept in
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Speaker 1: the garage all these years. If there was much more
15:30
Speaker 1: in this collection of files than I had any idea. Wow,
15:36
Speaker 1: you're hearing the voice of Faith Phillips, who reignited this investigation.
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Speaker 1: Faith hearing miss Farmer, who you are often in touch with,
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Speaker 1: that she believes there could be other suspects. Does that
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Speaker 1: vindicate your investigation? It's wonderful to hear from Sherry. I
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Speaker 1: have from the very beginning to be extremely considerate of
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Speaker 1: the families. The last thing, the worst thing that could
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Speaker 1: possibly happen, was to cause them more pain. So to
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Speaker 1: hear her say that it's a possibility in her mind
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Speaker 1: that there could be more than one person, it is
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Speaker 1: just a relief to me. Guys. I'm wanting to hear
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Speaker 1: this about the preliminary hearing. At the preliminary hearing, the
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Speaker 1: prosecution presents a number of pieces of evidence that they
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Speaker 1: say connect Jeane Hart to the murders and which the
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Speaker 1: judge admits into trial. Among them, our items authority said
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Speaker 1: we're found in the cave were hearts supposedly hit out
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Speaker 1: after the murders. The first of which our professional photographs
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Speaker 1: of women. The photographer that Jean Herd had worked with
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Speaker 1: at Greated State Prison confirmed that he had developed those
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Speaker 1: photos with Jane Hart when he was an assistant while
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Speaker 1: he was working in jail. Secutors also claimed that sperm
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Speaker 1: found on a pillowcase at the crime scene match sperm
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Speaker 1: found on Jean's underwear from prison, and that hairs found
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Speaker 1: on the duck tape, but the crime scene we're tested
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Speaker 1: and determined to be from a Native American. Everything that
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Speaker 1: was just said is true, except when you hear that
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Speaker 1: DNA from sperm found at the crime scene match sperm
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Speaker 1: found belonging to Gene Hart to suspect that was tried
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Speaker 1: and acquitted. It's not the one in four million type
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Speaker 1: of a DNA match. At that time, that kind of
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Speaker 1: DNA match didn't exist. There's no such thing. It turned
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Speaker 1: out to be that it was one in seventy seven
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Speaker 1: hundred likelihood the sperm match. Now to me, that's pretty strong,
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Speaker 1: but it's not the kind of DNA we look for now,
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Speaker 1: Sherry Farmer, do you know whether the DNA found at
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Speaker 1: the crime scene has been retested using modern DNA technology
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Speaker 1: many times? Many times? And what happens It became more
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Speaker 1: narrowed as to the likelihood that it was genuinely roy
18:11
Speaker 1: Hard crime stories with Nancy Grace, So let me ask
18:31
Speaker 1: to another guest joining us, and you've heard her name
18:34
Speaker 1: many many times as doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief development
18:38
Speaker 1: officer at author M Lab. You can find her and
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Speaker 1: her husband, also doctor Middleman. This is doctor Kristin Middleman
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Speaker 1: joining us now at DNA solves dot com. And I'm
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Speaker 1: gonna tell you author AMA worked on many, many cases
18:54
Speaker 1: where AUTHORM was involved. One of their specialties is to
18:58
Speaker 1: take old DNA. Do great a DNA DNA that's been underwater,
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Speaker 1: DNA mixed with other DNA DNA that's mixed with mud
19:06
Speaker 1: or dirt or whatever substance, and get an answer. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Kristen Middleman, thank you for being with us. From off
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Speaker 1: RAMLEB what should be done with the DNA from the scene.
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Speaker 1: We've got Jane Hart's DNA. I assume they have enough
19:24
Speaker 1: to continue testing it. But doctor Middleman, what kind of
19:28
Speaker 1: test should be being run right now in twenty twenty two. Oh,
19:32
Speaker 1: in my opinion, if there is any DNA evidence left,
19:36
Speaker 1: because unfortunately, hearing the it's been tested many many times,
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Speaker 1: actually scares me. Every time you test DNA, you consume it.
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Speaker 1: Can't you regenerate it? No, there's no way to regenerate DNA,
19:49
Speaker 1: and from a crime scene such as this one, you
19:53
Speaker 1: have a limited amount of DNA and so because and
19:57
Speaker 1: that's honestly when these cases remain solved. So if there
20:01
Speaker 1: is DNA left, and of course there's a possibility of
20:05
Speaker 1: touch DNA, epithelial DNA, which I don't think has ever
20:09
Speaker 1: been done, what kind of tests should be being done
20:11
Speaker 1: right now? It has been done with epithelial DNA as well.
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Speaker 1: We just identified with GBI and the SBI the murderer
20:20
Speaker 1: of Stacey Lee to Horsky was her name. Where I'm
20:24
Speaker 1: trying to get all the cases together, and we did
20:26
Speaker 1: it from touch DNA on the pan. You know, I'm
20:29
Speaker 1: saying in this case and the girls Scott murders case. Yes,
20:32
Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that that the most advanced DNA technology
20:38
Speaker 1: should be used first, and that is SNIP testing rather
20:41
Speaker 1: than SDR testing, and it's sequencing, and it allows you
20:46
Speaker 1: to get hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers from
20:49
Speaker 1: that DNA profile rather than just the twenty SCR markers
20:53
Speaker 1: that you're going to compare. And the ability to get
20:56
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of thousands of monkers allows you not
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Speaker 1: only to be able to confirm identity and say yes,
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Speaker 1: it was this person or no it wasn't in this
21:07
Speaker 1: case Gene, it also allows you to be able to
21:11
Speaker 1: identify who the person may have been and get information
21:15
Speaker 1: about who the person was, whether you know that identity
21:19
Speaker 1: or not, and so whether we're suspecting the right person
21:22
Speaker 1: or not, whether there is another person involved, or whatever
21:25
Speaker 1: the situation is. In this case, you would be able
21:28
Speaker 1: to actually infer the identity of the person that left
21:32
Speaker 1: that seaman at the crime scene. And because DNA is,
21:36
Speaker 1: like I said, DNA testing is a destructive process, I
21:39
Speaker 1: would start with the type of testing that would give
21:42
Speaker 1: you the most amount of information, and that is exactly
21:47
Speaker 1: what we do here at also We've got a question
21:49
Speaker 1: to Sharry Farmer. This is Loyally Farmer's mother. Sharry, you
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Speaker 1: studied that the DNA have been tested several times over
22:01
Speaker 1: the years with new technology, and at each time it
22:05
Speaker 1: more narrowly and better identified gene heart. I think that
22:11
Speaker 1: is correct. I have kept up with all of that,
22:17
Speaker 1: but I don't feel real comfortable talking about which DNA. Oh.
22:22
Speaker 1: I understand, Yeah, but we yes, we have kept up
22:27
Speaker 1: with things as they have progressed. Good to know, Fate Phillips.
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Speaker 1: Did you know about the continued DNA testing that goes
22:35
Speaker 1: back to heart? I did. I was aware of that,
22:37
Speaker 1: and I've been following it. And I think that the
22:40
Speaker 1: quote that most often is used in the media is
22:43
Speaker 1: that there was a three out of five prong match,
22:46
Speaker 1: but that was at the time. The three out of
22:48
Speaker 1: five prong match was back at the time, and that
22:53
Speaker 1: continues to be what is referred to as far as
22:58
Speaker 1: there's nothing that can be reported as a conclusive match
23:02
Speaker 1: by the official Let me understand something. James Powell is
23:07
Speaker 1: with me. James Robert Bob Powell, former Senior Agent Oklahoma
23:12
Speaker 1: State Vieer of Investigation, called into this case. I believe
23:17
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. You can find them at the Investigator
23:20
Speaker 1: LLC James Bob Powell. What can you tell me about
23:26
Speaker 1: continued DNA efforts and what if anything they had revealed.
23:32
Speaker 1: We requested that the two suspects we had in Cherokee
23:36
Speaker 1: County have their DNA taken by OSPI, and as far
23:39
Speaker 1: as I know, that was done a couple of years ago,
23:42
Speaker 1: and I don't know the results of that. It's never
23:45
Speaker 1: been presented to me on what the results of that
23:47
Speaker 1: DNA was. I know I did check with him a
23:49
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, and at that time they'd taken
23:52
Speaker 1: the DNA, but they had not submitted it. But one
23:55
Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind, I think in both face
23:57
Speaker 1: case and in mine, we're looking at two different sets
23:59
Speaker 1: of suspect X. But we're not necessarily saying that because
24:03
Speaker 1: there's no DNA of our suspects there, that they weren't involved.
24:06
Speaker 1: We think they could have been accessories or peripheries, or
24:09
Speaker 1: they could have been witnesses. They could have participated and
24:11
Speaker 1: not left DNA. So I agree that the DNA that's
24:16
Speaker 1: been tested so far points to Jeane Hart, maybe not conclusively,
24:20
Speaker 1: but I would say if I were sitting on a jury,
24:22
Speaker 1: it would probably be more than a reasonable doubt if
24:25
Speaker 1: he left that DNA that we're talking about now. So
24:29
Speaker 1: what I understand is that Sheriff Reid, who grew up
24:32
Speaker 1: in May's County, was just a boy when the murders occurred,
24:38
Speaker 1: took over and vowed that he would get the answer
24:41
Speaker 1: to the girls Scout murders. Now, a year after Reid
24:45
Speaker 1: took over the case, he and OSBI, Oklahoma State Beera
24:50
Speaker 1: of Investigation went to the National Center for miss Exploited
24:55
Speaker 1: Sheldon and twenty three of the best homicide investigators. FBI
25:00
Speaker 1: analysis reached the decision they believe gene Hart, who was
25:06
Speaker 1: tried and acquitted, was at the very least involved. But
25:10
Speaker 1: when it comes to retesting of DNA, what do we know?
25:15
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott joining me, Professor Forensics, Jackonville
25:19
Speaker 1: State University and the Star Wing you hit body backs with,
25:22
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, what do you believe the retesting? Well,
25:29
Speaker 1: you know, we do know this. We know that there
25:32
Speaker 1: were three sexual assaults, that's what they're calling them. And
25:36
Speaker 1: I think, from again an evidence gathering perspective at autopsy,
25:42
Speaker 1: i'd like to know how robust the examination was that
25:46
Speaker 1: they conducted, if they did actual rape kits, what the
25:50
Speaker 1: status of those kits are. Kristen had mentioned a moment
25:53
Speaker 1: ago regarding the destructive nature of the DNA testing. Have
25:59
Speaker 1: they been preserved herd up to this moment? How much
26:01
Speaker 1: sample is left? And we have to go back to
26:04
Speaker 1: the hair that was also found at that time, Nancy.
26:07
Speaker 1: And you know when they when they identified that hair,
26:11
Speaker 1: they used the methodology that's referred to as you're you're
26:15
Speaker 1: looking at the morphology of the hair, which means the
26:18
Speaker 1: origin of it based upon a catalog that they have,
26:21
Speaker 1: and they say it was Native American. That doesn't mean anything.
26:24
Speaker 1: Now the idea is do they still have that hair sample?
26:28
Speaker 1: My question would be about the knot Joe Scott, the
26:31
Speaker 1: knot that was tied and getting epiphilial or touch DNA
26:35
Speaker 1: from the knot. I don't know that that's ever been
26:37
Speaker 1: done well. Touch DNA is so very fragile, Nancy. It's
26:40
Speaker 1: so very fragile. Remember it's only a partial sample. You know,
26:44
Speaker 1: you compare it to something like I don't know, calculm
26:47
Speaker 1: for instance, that can fall off very easy. It's very
26:49
Speaker 1: very fragile and hard to deal with it. It's not
26:51
Speaker 1: as robust to say if you get it from a
26:54
Speaker 1: blood sample or from a seaman sample and that sort
26:56
Speaker 1: of thing. So when you talk about touch DNA, I
27:00
Speaker 1: really shocked if there was anything left. But that's true.
27:03
Speaker 1: That's true that it's a lot less robust than getting
27:06
Speaker 1: from blood. But DNA does actually laugh quite a bit,
27:11
Speaker 1: and we have been able to identify a perpetrator from
27:15
Speaker 1: rope that was found from a case that is over
27:19
Speaker 1: forty seven years old. In this case, another issue is
27:22
Speaker 1: a bloody footprint that was found at the scene that
27:25
Speaker 1: people argue did not belong to Heart. Now, according to
27:31
Speaker 1: Sheriff Reid, he believes it is very logical to assume
27:35
Speaker 1: that the print was from someone innocently walking into the
27:40
Speaker 1: scene because we all know the scene was very chaotic
27:44
Speaker 1: in the crime scene processing. Is that possible, faith Phillips, Well,
27:49
Speaker 1: you know, I want to say at the top here
27:51
Speaker 1: that I have a great respect for law enforcement, and
27:54
Speaker 1: that's important for me to get out there. I have
27:57
Speaker 1: family in law enforcement, and so I believe that OSBI
28:00
Speaker 1: and this and share Free genuinely believe and are convinced
28:04
Speaker 1: that it was GANE. Heart acting alone. And so I
28:08
Speaker 1: want to state that right off the top. But this,
28:10
Speaker 1: all of this information has been coming in, including the shoeprints.
28:15
Speaker 1: So we have that bootprint, this jungle bootprint. This jungle
28:18
Speaker 1: bootprint is all over the crime scene and in addition
28:21
Speaker 1: to another the cave in some other places. Then we
28:24
Speaker 1: have a tennis shoe print. Right. And then when you
28:27
Speaker 1: take those things and you add in this box of
28:30
Speaker 1: information that I got from her beweaver that points to
28:33
Speaker 1: gene Heart, then this makes me think that maybe everybody
28:37
Speaker 1: is right and wrong at the same time. Guys, take
28:40
Speaker 1: a listen to this. It's very important to understand this
28:43
Speaker 1: trial was before DNA had not become a tool that
28:49
Speaker 1: could be used either to prove innocent or guilt. There
28:53
Speaker 1: were hairs found on the duct tape that the girls
28:58
Speaker 1: had been bound up with that was what was described
29:03
Speaker 1: as Native American hair. They used that to try and
29:07
Speaker 1: implicate hard because of course he was a Cherokee. That
29:12
Speaker 1: was not good science to believe that hair could be matched,
29:17
Speaker 1: though DNA testing is not yet available. The prosecution also
29:22
Speaker 1: claims that sperm samples taken from Jeane Hart's underwear were
29:25
Speaker 1: similar to the sperm found in one of the girls.
29:30
Speaker 1: There was important evidence on the scene which tended to
29:34
Speaker 1: exonerate hard. There was a bloody footprint on the floor
29:41
Speaker 1: of the ten and it was not hards footprint. It
29:44
Speaker 1: was a wrong songe. There was a thumb print found
29:48
Speaker 1: on the flashoom and it was not Hard. So there
29:52
Speaker 1: was exonerating evidence found there as well as evidence then
29:56
Speaker 1: implicated it. There was things there that we what do
30:00
Speaker 1: I want you to believe that someone else either involved
30:03
Speaker 1: or did the calme joining me Nathan E. Clark high
30:06
Speaker 1: profile a lawyer or out of Tulsa. Nathan, thank you
30:10
Speaker 1: for being with us. What do you make of it?
30:12
Speaker 1: It's a complicated pattern and it's been one that's been
30:15
Speaker 1: looked at. But that's what's so remarkable about what's happening now.
30:20
Speaker 1: The Cherokee nations looking at it. And if you think
30:23
Speaker 1: about the Cherokee Nation being there to protect and provide
30:27
Speaker 1: and govern the Cherokee people, the Cherokee people have confidence
30:30
Speaker 1: in the Cherokee Nation and they have trust, and that
30:35
Speaker 1: is what I'm hopeful is going to lead to new
30:37
Speaker 1: information from the witnesses who are Cherokee about what actually
30:43
Speaker 1: happened that day forty five years ago. I'm very cherious.
30:46
Speaker 1: I think at this point there's so much gossa, there's
30:49
Speaker 1: so many rumors floating that other suspects may be involved
30:54
Speaker 1: in addition to or excluding gene Hart, But where is
30:59
Speaker 1: any real evidence? And I keep going back to DNA,
31:05
Speaker 1: d oxo ribo nucleic acid. Jessica Morgan, We've heard some
31:10
Speaker 1: speakers saying that looking at a hair under a microscope,
31:14
Speaker 1: you cannot determine if it is Native American. It's my understanding,
31:19
Speaker 1: having used that technology in rape cases, that you can
31:23
Speaker 1: determine if the hair is from a Caucasian, Asian, African
31:28
Speaker 1: American and Native American. Is that not correct? Yeah? Yeah,
31:33
Speaker 1: you can. So why would they say that you can't
31:35
Speaker 1: tell that? Well, I think that probably what they're saying
31:39
Speaker 1: is they can say that it is in fact from
31:42
Speaker 1: that particular grouping, all right, but you can't put a
31:45
Speaker 1: fine point on it. You can't put a fine scientific
31:48
Speaker 1: point on it like you can today. And that's what
31:50
Speaker 1: you're faced with at this moment time. It's been known
31:53
Speaker 1: for a long long time in forensics that we can
31:56
Speaker 1: study the morphology of hair and talk about the racial grouping,
32:00
Speaker 1: that it's going to fall in based upon the way
32:02
Speaker 1: it looks, and that's the way it has always been done,
32:05
Speaker 1: or was done up to a point. Now that technology
32:08
Speaker 1: is not considered to be cutting edge when you compare
32:13
Speaker 1: it to what Kristen and her husband are involved in. Now, absolutely,
32:17
Speaker 1: I mean why I say, oh, it was a white
32:18
Speaker 1: guy when you could say, oh, it was Jeff Scott
32:21
Speaker 1: actually joining us right now from Jacksonville State University. Why
32:24
Speaker 1: stay with just a white guy. So, yes, it's almost obsolete.
32:29
Speaker 1: But you know, back to Sherry Farmer, this is Lorie
32:33
Speaker 1: Farmer's mother who has lived with this case all these years.
32:38
Speaker 1: I was reading something that your husband both said, here's
32:42
Speaker 1: a quote. Every bit of information we've gotten over the
32:45
Speaker 1: last forty years has just continued to nail it down
32:48
Speaker 1: more and more. That the DNA result test results quote
32:54
Speaker 1: solidified his belief heart was in fact responsible for the crime.
33:00
Speaker 1: I think that he has a belief in what has
33:05
Speaker 1: the testing and things that have been done up until
33:08
Speaker 1: this time, and I think he feels more certain than
33:15
Speaker 1: I have been over the long haul. But yes, I
33:21
Speaker 1: guess I have faith maybe this may be placed in
33:27
Speaker 1: the right places we are and remain friends with the
33:34
Speaker 1: original OSB agents who worked on our case through the
33:39
Speaker 1: present time, and like Fate said about people her belief
33:47
Speaker 1: in the justice system, I just find it hard to
33:51
Speaker 1: believe that any of the people that we have been
33:53
Speaker 1: working with all this time have done something maliciously to
34:01
Speaker 1: make it be hard. I just don't feel that that
34:06
Speaker 1: has happened. And I am still close to Mike Wilkerson
34:11
Speaker 1: and Harvey Pratt and original agents who worked on our case.
34:19
Speaker 1: We are very close with Mike Read and present OSB agents,
34:26
Speaker 1: particularly Andrea, And nothing about this just suddenly came to
34:34
Speaker 1: light like yesterday. Anytime new things have come up and
34:40
Speaker 1: people have been kind enough to approach us as Faith did.
34:45
Speaker 1: All this time, there have been different equations into the picture,
34:53
Speaker 1: and so it's hard for me to say right here,
34:58
Speaker 1: nothing that's been done as adequate are there is one
35:05
Speaker 1: answer that nobody has ever talked about in forty five years,
35:10
Speaker 1: it's I just have a hard time in my heart
35:13
Speaker 1: believing that. I think one of the most interesting things
35:19
Speaker 1: is how a National Center for Missing the Exploited Children
35:23
Speaker 1: got involved. This was a friend of Laurie's from elementary
35:28
Speaker 1: school who was greatly affected by Laurie's murder. And she
35:34
Speaker 1: chose to be a victim's advocate with mac mac and
35:39
Speaker 1: she reached out to us probably eight or so years
35:42
Speaker 1: ago and told us who she was and how much
35:47
Speaker 1: Laurie had meant to her, and she asked if we
35:52
Speaker 1: would like to have the National Center become involved, and
35:57
Speaker 1: we said, of course, let's do that, and they sent
36:01
Speaker 1: an agent here and we met with him and then
36:05
Speaker 1: a week in Washington going over all of the evidence.
36:12
Speaker 1: And those people certainly do not have any reason to
36:16
Speaker 1: want to have a wrong person mentioned as the one
36:22
Speaker 1: who did this. Their non biased, their NDC and as
36:28
Speaker 1: you pointed out, some of the top so I think
36:34
Speaker 1: it's as a personal story. It's interesting to me that
36:38
Speaker 1: their involvement became because of Lorie. And then I have
36:44
Speaker 1: to give some validity to their results of their findings,
36:49
Speaker 1: and what were their results sharing Their result was that
36:53
Speaker 1: gene Lee roy Hart was the most likely suspect in
36:56
Speaker 1: this case. To James Powell, how much to the struggle
37:00
Speaker 1: between the Cherokee Nation jurisdiction versus the US or Oklahoma
37:05
Speaker 1: jurisdiction way into this well after mcgurt it tends to
37:11
Speaker 1: give most of the jurisdiction to the tribe depending on
37:13
Speaker 1: the victims, whether they were native or the suspects, whether
37:17
Speaker 1: they were Native or both, or one or the other.
37:20
Speaker 1: That decision has changed recently, and perhaps faith might know
37:23
Speaker 1: that more than that's changed tiny But back in the
37:25
Speaker 1: seventy seven it was concurrent jurisdiction. Most of the counties
37:29
Speaker 1: had agreements with the tribe that they would share the jurisdiction,
37:33
Speaker 1: but generally speaking in the seventy seven up until very recently,
37:36
Speaker 1: the county took precedence over almost all of those crimes.
37:40
Speaker 1: This case reignited by a teacher who feels confident that
37:46
Speaker 1: other people were involved. Years of research and leg work
37:52
Speaker 1: have gone into Phillip's belief. Cherokee screenwriter, but see for
37:59
Speaker 1: yourself The Girl Scout Murders exclusively on Fox Station. We
38:05
Speaker 1: Wait as Justice unfalse Nancy Grace Crim's story signing off
38:11
Speaker 1: good Bye Friend,