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Transcript

TMP305 ROBERT MACHÉ: DRIFTER AT HEART · Troubled Men Podcast

• 0:15
  Speaker A: Greetings, troubled listeners. Welcome back to the Troubled Men podcast. I am Rene Coman, sitting once again in Snake and Jake's Christmas Club Lounge in the heart of the Clempire with my co host, the original troubled man for troubled times and future mayor of New Orleans, Mr. Manny Chevrolet. Welcome, Manny.
• 0:33
  Speaker B: Hey, thank you. Thank you for having me.
• 0:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, thank you for.
• 0:36
  Speaker B: What's going on.
• 0:38
  Speaker A: Oh, you know, just as we were talking about last week getting even closer to ramping up to the festival coming up this weekend. Past weekend. Past. Last week, right after we had the show, I, I was on WWOZ playing live with the great Lynn Drury. Had a noon show there on the, on the radio with the wonderful DJ Michael Dominici. And then, then the next day on Friday, I did something I hadn't done in a while. Did a bathe. Yeah, sure, I'm more of a shower guy, but I like a bath now and then. But had a recording session with Jeff Treffinger or for Jeff Treffinger for some music he's working on and, you know, a good friend of all of ours, prince of a guy. And, but, but what was really unusual is did a, a live rhythm section recording with me playing bass and Glenn Styler on drums. Oh, hadn't done that.
• 1:39
  Speaker B: And how is she?
• 1:42
  Speaker A: Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, Brent. He's doing great. He's, you know, he sticks very close to home these days. It has to be a very special occasion to, to get him out, especially get him out to actually go do something like cut a drum track. But, you know, it was. He and I, it's like falling off a log playing together. So that was, that was really fun. Oh, you know, very easy. It's easy as falling off a log. Can't. Can't help but do it, you know.
• 2:10
  Speaker B: Oh, I got you. All right.
• 2:12
  Speaker A: I've never heard that term before. I'm trying to bring back a lot of the old phrases, you know, today I used the little Turner phrase, a bugaboo. Bugaboo, bugaboo. You know, the bugaboo about it. The only bugaboo is. And, but, you know, you don't, you don't hear that too much these days.
• 2:31
  Speaker B: You know, you don't hear much either is. Pardon my French.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: You don't, you don't hear that either. It's true.
• 2:38
  Speaker B: Pardon my French.
• 2:39
  Speaker A: They used to say that if someone, if they like speaking, getting some salty language or something. Yeah.
• 2:46
  Speaker B: Yes. Now, I don't know why the French are considered to have salty language. Yeah, Understood that.
• 2:52
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:52
  Speaker B: I don't know, you know, but they're good people, those French people.
• 2:56
  Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Yeah. Good and bad, like any people, you know.
• 3:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 3:00
  Speaker A: So some people.
• 3:01
  Speaker B: You know, what happened recently? This past week, you know, I. I don't have many friends, but this one friend of mine, you know, I don't think it's. He got mad at me.
• 3:13
  Speaker A: Huh?
• 3:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, he got mad at me.
• 3:15
  Speaker A: Imagine that.
• 3:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. Because I. You know, so he had been seeing this woman for years. Well, not years, but a while. And she broke up with him. And I said that, hey, man, don't be down that your woman left you. You'll find another one.
• 3:34
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 3:34
  Speaker B: And then she'll leave you too.
• 3:37
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 3:38
  Speaker B: You know, so he got all bent out of shape about it. He's not talking to me like he didn't.
• 3:42
  Speaker A: Couldn't see that coming.
• 3:43
  Speaker B: Yeah. I don't.
• 3:45
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:45
  Speaker B: People are just so sensitive.
• 3:47
  Speaker A: Well, you're just trying to be honest with him. You know, Exactly.
• 3:50
  Speaker B: What's wrong with honesty?
• 3:51
  Speaker A: Oh, no.
• 3:52
  Speaker B: You know, our guess is gonna happen because he should know better because it's happened before to him. I just gave him the truth.
• 3:58
  Speaker A: Right, Right.
• 3:59
  Speaker B: You know.
• 3:59
  Speaker A: Well, you know, if you're prepared for that eventuality, it's not such a shock. It's like, you don't think, well, this is forever. It's this. This is for right now.
• 4:08
  Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I mean, when we all die alone. Yes.
• 4:12
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 4:13
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 4:13
  Speaker B: You know, so you should get used to.
• 4:14
  Speaker A: Or they say it's better to have loved, never to have loved it.
• 4:17
  Speaker B: All right, great. I don't want to say his name on the show.
• 4:21
  Speaker A: No, we know. No reason.
• 4:22
  Speaker B: But I might later on.
• 4:23
  Speaker A: Okay, well, depending on how much booze. Yeah.
• 4:27
  Speaker B: Later on.
• 4:27
  Speaker A: Well, down.
• 4:28
  Speaker B: Right. I might. But other than that, he seems like a good guy.
• 4:33
  Speaker A: All right, well, I'm glad he's, you know, he's forging ahead.
• 4:36
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 4:37
  Speaker A: Plenty of fish in the sea, as they say.
• 4:39
  Speaker B: Right.
• 4:40
  Speaker A: Well, anything else you're into this week? Any activities? Did they. I saw they had a big pro day of protest all around the country. Uh, were you.
• 4:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, I missed that.
• 4:49
  Speaker A: You down there?
• 4:50
  Speaker B: No, I didn't.
• 4:51
  Speaker A: Didn't make.
• 4:52
  Speaker B: I didn't get the memo. As I say, you know, I don't. I'm not on these lit email list or that kind of stuff.
• 4:58
  Speaker A: Right.
• 4:59
  Speaker B: I heard about it and, you know, people need to protest. I'm all for protesting.
• 5:04
  Speaker A: Right.
• 5:04
  Speaker B: You know, well, they have a lot to protest.
• 5:08
  Speaker A: There's a lot. A lot going on.
• 5:10
  Speaker B: Did you go down there?
• 5:11
  Speaker A: No, I did not. I had a gig. I had to play in the bywater again with Len Drury. We had a whole garden Art garden gig over there. And. But, but yeah, I saw some photographs. Some people that had been at our gig had gone there earlier, and it's.
• 5:29
  Speaker B: Like, remember they used to have those million. Martin. Million people marches, Man March.
• 5:35
  Speaker A: Right, right, right.
• 5:35
  Speaker B: Like that. You know, I, I didn't count the numbers, but I, I didn't see a million.
• 5:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's a figurative kind of number.
• 5:44
  Speaker B: Million Man March or whatever they called it. Million Women March.
• 5:48
  Speaker A: Right, right.
• 5:48
  Speaker B: And so anyway, well, I didn't see much of it. I heard about it. In fact, I knew a few people who went down there and they seemed to have a good time.
• 6:02
  Speaker A: Yeah. Did they have their hats on?
• 6:04
  Speaker B: I don't know what that means.
• 6:05
  Speaker A: Those hats when they. From the, from the. Held over from the Woman's March during the. The first Trump administration. Those kind of kitty cat looking hats?
• 6:14
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 6:15
  Speaker A: I don't know. I saw a few of those.
• 6:16
  Speaker B: I saw. I think some of them had their penis hats on.
• 6:19
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 6:20
  Speaker B: I don't know about.
• 6:21
  Speaker A: All right, so it's kind of a kid.
• 6:23
  Speaker B: I'm not much of a hat guy.
• 6:24
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 6:25
  Speaker B: You know, I don't really care for hats.
• 6:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, me either. It's like if I, if I put a hat on, the hair is ruined until I wash it again.
• 6:31
  Speaker B: Right. You know, which is something I haven't done in years. Wash your hair and wear a hat.
• 6:37
  Speaker A: Right, right, right. We've talked about that. It's been a long time. Maybe we should refresh for the, the listeners who just come on. Five years. Your, your, your, your hair care regimen.
• 6:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't wash my. I haven't washed my hair. What is it, 20, 25 now? I don't think I've washed my hair since like 1992. So it's been about, you know, close to over 30 years.
• 7:02
  Speaker A: But you, you get it wet though, right?
• 7:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, I, When I, When I take a shower, my hair gets wet. I just don't use shampoo or conditioner.
• 7:10
  Speaker A: Or a bar soap. You don't use any, Any soap on your hair?
• 7:14
  Speaker B: No, no, no, no. I use it other places.
• 7:17
  Speaker A: Well, hopefully so. Yeah.
• 7:18
  Speaker B: But speaking of that, you know what I noticed lately? All these commercials for deodorants now that are for everywhere on your body.
• 7:28
  Speaker A: Right, right, right.
• 7:29
  Speaker B: Have you noticed that?
• 7:30
  Speaker A: I've been seeing those. Yeah.
• 7:31
  Speaker B: Yeah. What the is that about?
• 7:33
  Speaker A: Well, I guess we got a lot of stinky people out there, Manny.
• 7:36
  Speaker B: I, I guess these companies, These Deodorant companies realize that they can convince people that, listen, it's just not your underarms, it's everywhere else that you stink.
• 7:48
  Speaker A: It's the entire surface area of your skin needs to be covered.
• 7:52
  Speaker B: And those commercials are very like, forward because you see these women and they're not, you know, women and men. And for some reason, I guess because it's so peace. They're not sexy women, they're not great looking guys. They're just like average overweight people.
• 8:06
  Speaker A: Well, see, the overweight people, that's a, That's a target audience because people with the folds, you know, that's where you, it becomes kind of like a, like a false armpit almost. You know, it's a crevice that keep holds sweat and bacteria. So, you know, in some cases, I'm sure it's a godsend, you know. Sure. There's people for whom this product. This is an answer to a prayer.
• 8:31
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think. And you know, because. Because how often, I mean, really, I mean, I might do it more than others, but the average person, how often are you going to tell someone, hey, man, you stink?
• 8:43
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's. It's an uncomfortable conversation.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: You know, you can maybe tell a loved one, you know.
• 8:52
  Speaker A: Right. Even then you got to really pick.
• 8:53
  Speaker B: Your spot around that. But I mean, how often, I guess if you're intimate with someone and you. And all of a sudden there's a flap there, you gotta tell them. You gotta tell them. You say, hey, man, or hey, Gail, hey, man, something's not right here.
• 9:15
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 9:15
  Speaker B: You know, here, have some of this body.
• 9:18
  Speaker A: Right, right, right. Just leave it on the Johnson and Johnson, leave it on the nightstand.
• 9:22
  Speaker B: Because isn't like Johnson and Johnson baking powder. Isn't that outlawed now?
• 9:27
  Speaker A: Baby powder.
• 9:28
  Speaker B: Baby powder, yeah.
• 9:29
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Speaker B: Because I know people who used to, instead of using de, they would just put baby powder all over your body.
• 9:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I remember that.
• 9:35
  Speaker B: You know, and that was a way to keep yourself, I guess.
• 9:38
  Speaker A: Well, it absorbs moisture so it keeps the sweat, you know, contained. But yeah, it turns out, well, a lot of the places that they were mining that talc from the talc mines, they had asbestos mixed in with it. So. And somehow they knew this way back, like, you know, it turned up in the data and they just kind of said, we'll just. Let's pretend we didn't find that out. And then, you know, all these people wind up having, you know, all these, especially women who used it, you know.
• 10:05
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:06
  Speaker A: Get all these kind of cancers and stuff. And then a Huge multi billion dollar bunch of class action suits that are working their way through the courts now. Have been for years.
• 10:17
  Speaker B: Johnson and Johnson still around?
• 10:19
  Speaker A: Well, they are. And they're still on the hook for all that, for all these suits, so. Which, yeah, it's, you know, feel free.
• 10:29
  Speaker B: To butt in if you want, man.
• 10:32
  Speaker C: I'm, I'm just taking it all in.
• 10:35
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 10:37
  Speaker B: Kind of like my life, you know, I've just taken it all in because I realized like just a few days ago, someone asked me how I was doing and I, you know, someone I worked with and I said I'm just basically managing stress and suffering. That's basically what my life has become. Just managing that.
• 10:57
  Speaker A: Right. Well, you know, you know, on a certain level, sure.
• 10:59
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:00
  Speaker C: And see, now you can put deodorant on it.
• 11:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, I could just. Well, no, I don't put deodorant stress. I just put this on it. This is what I put.
• 11:08
  Speaker A: Okay. You know, some liquid lubrication.
• 11:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Liquid deodorant, as they say. But yeah, it's kind of funny how that stuff, you know, I guess you know someone. It's a big deal because those commercials are on like every 20 seconds.
• 11:27
  Speaker A: It seems like I'll just wait till all the lawsuits from those.
• 11:30
  Speaker B: That stuff start. Start rolling under my flap.
• 11:32
  Speaker A: 25.
• 11:33
  Speaker B: And I grew a gnome.
• 11:35
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 11:36
  Speaker B: A lawn jockey came out of my ass because I put that deodorant on my ass.
• 11:42
  Speaker A: Oh, wow.
• 11:42
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Speaker A: Who knows? Who knows? It's. It's the. They don't have enough data in it to know what's. How it's going to turn out.
• 11:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:49
  Speaker A: Well, so later on, on Saturday, after the, after the, the protest had died down there that we had the. The Red Rockers reunion, they played their.
• 12:01
  Speaker B: I wasn't invited.
• 12:02
  Speaker A: Oh, you were invited to.
• 12:03
  Speaker B: And I didn't get my.
• 12:05
  Speaker A: You didn't show up.
• 12:06
  Speaker B: Well, I didn't know. He said he was going to put me on the list.
• 12:08
  Speaker A: Well, did you show up and ask if your name was on the list?
• 12:12
  Speaker B: I asked you that because you were going to be there. Well, I don't have. I don't have his digits, that guy.
• 12:16
  Speaker A: Right. Well, you texted me at. When the show was already going on. But anyway, I'm, I think I'm pretty sure he had your name on there, so. But anyway, it was a great show. We had the, the contenders opening up Bandit that had, I think stopped playing before I was even out going to nightclub. So it was cool to see those guys, some proto glam punk.
• 12:38
  Speaker B: Now there was Survival. Like a year ago when they had a show. Was there a, a plaque dedicated to dead people?
• 12:45
  Speaker A: No, they didn't have the poster board with, for. With. With the, with the marks a lot for to. To put up any, any people that had passed away. In fact this time I saw mostly people from New Orleans. Now I, I wasn't circulating through the room like I, I did last year, but the people that I did run into, it's a lot of them were, I mean the ones that I knew are a lot of people that I see in New Orleans anyway. Dave Clements, Kyle Melan Sauce and you know, other New Orleans rock people. And then, then some people at work that I didn't recognize at all but I think were from the New Orleans scene. But it was a filled, filled room. Had my, my old buddy Brian Barbaro back filling in on drums. Now Brian Barbaro, he apparently had pneumonia and had been on two courses of antibiotics to try to get rid of it and then sat behind and played punk rock drums for two hours.
• 13:43
  Speaker C: But damn.
• 13:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm watching him like the whole 2/3 of the way through. I can see him opening his mouth. Like when you see that in a boxer when they start breathing through their mouth, it's. It's always like a last ditch effort to try to get air. And I knew he was playing through pneumonia, but he was a fucking champ. You wouldn't have known it by hearing him play. He was rocking all night long and it was a great night. They played their whole second record Good as Gold. Then they launched into just a bunch of a material punk rock stuff. The crowd really came alive there. The drinks were flowing. It was fun night. Wound up coming over here with Dave Clements and a couple of our friends. Monica, Natasha, my wife and a couple of guy Darren and, and from the band and Jonathan Pries who was playing like third guitar singing harmonies kind of utility spot there he was doing a great job on. And we're all over here.
• 14:43
  Speaker B: That sounds great.
• 14:44
  Speaker A: Yeah, that was fun night some anyway.
• 14:47
  Speaker C: And you missed it, Manny.
• 14:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't really care. I miss a lot of things.
• 14:52
  Speaker A: That was by design.
• 14:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, I. I don't care. I was at home looking for deodorant.
• 14:58
  Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, you got anything else?
• 15:01
  Speaker C: And deodorant was looking for you.
• 15:03
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 15:03
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 15:04
  Speaker A: It's a two way street.
• 15:06
  Speaker B: Oh yeah. We talk about this before? I don't know. I'm looking at my notes. I don't know if we went over this before but try me out. Cut me off. What we did talk about the whole Hooters thing. Did we talk about Hooters?
• 15:19
  Speaker A: It sounds familiar.
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Okay, well, then I'm not going to bring it up.
• 15:23
  Speaker A: All right.
• 15:23
  Speaker B: Okay. I. I don't know. Anyway, yeah, we can, we can move on. Let's move on.
• 15:29
  Speaker A: All right. Yeah, yeah. We could talk about the stock market crash and the Great Depression range that we're moving into.
• 15:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, don't tell me about that. Looking at my. Yeah, money.
• 15:39
  Speaker A: Well, they say not to look at it right now. Yeah, but you're not going to need it this week anyway. But, but we'll move on. Get, get right to the good news. Good news for modern man. Well, the good news is we have a terrific guest here tonight. Once again. He's a fantastic guitar player, mandolin player, songwriter, singer with the legendary Continental Drifters. Also works a lot with Dana Kurtz and Lulu and the Broadsides. Also performs with his wife Candice and several groups up in Memphis, where they live now. I also worked with a lot of New York City luminaries like Klaus Nomi, Lydia Lunch, Ann Magnuson, Amy Rigby and the Cramps. One of my all time faves. Also did a lot of work in LA with a lot of well known people. Sid Straw, Rosie Flores, Steve Wynn, Sparks. You got some interesting, interesting touchstones back there. Anyway, without further ado, the great Mr. Robert Mashe. Welcome, Robert.
• 16:44
  Speaker C: Thank you for having me here.
• 16:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, man.
• 16:47
  Speaker B: Do you live here?
• 16:49
  Speaker C: You know, in New Orleans you get heart, soul and body. Anywhere else. Pick two. After Katrina, we ended up in Memphis because we had a little kid.
• 17:04
  Speaker A: Stay right on that mic.
• 17:05
  Speaker C: Couldn't have a little kid in New Orleans. In New Orleans then. And it's been all right. I love my house. And Memphis is a place you can come to because it's right in the middle of everything thing.
• 17:22
  Speaker B: Right.
• 17:23
  Speaker C: So we'll put up all sorts of people who, who wouldn't play Memphis otherwise because Memphis is a shitty town to play.
• 17:33
  Speaker B: Oh, okay.
• 17:34
  Speaker C: It's a terrible town to play. You can't get a paying gig to save your life.
• 17:39
  Speaker A: Now what, what are the clubs that people play at now? I know dk.
• 17:44
  Speaker C: What is dkdc? That's cool.
• 17:46
  Speaker A: It's small, little place.
• 17:47
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's about, it's about as big as here.
• 17:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Snake Jakes. But is the other place the, what is the, the High tone. High Tone.
• 17:56
  Speaker C: You can't make money there. Yeah, you can get a gig maybe, but you can't make money there.
• 18:01
  Speaker A: The crowd, the scene doesn't support live. Live music.
• 18:05
  Speaker C: The only Cool scene up there is the garage scene.
• 18:08
  Speaker A: Well, the Goner Records. Eric Goner. Eric. Frank Rydell. Yeah.
• 18:14
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker A: The guys ran into him during Mardi Gras down here, actually. He's a terrific asset to the community.
• 18:21
  Speaker C: That is a great scene up there, but it's. It only happens once a year.
• 18:25
  Speaker A: Right.
• 18:26
  Speaker C: So. And. And it's not like it's a paying gig.
• 18:30
  Speaker A: Sure, sure. It's. It's a social thing. It's.
• 18:32
  Speaker C: It's south by Southwest for. For garage baiting.
• 18:35
  Speaker A: Right. Well, you know, Memphis. For years I've gone up there and done, like, a recording session for. For Bruce Watson or, you know, Delta Sonic and, you know, visit Will Sexton and Amy. Amy Levere there. And. And it always feels like Memphis is kind of on the verge of something happening, but it never quite gets there.
• 18:58
  Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. I made a band apartment, so all my friends can stay.
• 19:03
  Speaker A: All right.
• 19:04
  Speaker C: We've had, you know, Nico Case and Rosie Flores and Jonathan Richmond and. And Lynn Drury after. When Katrina hit. Lynn Drury was basically our babysitter for about three months.
• 19:18
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 19:19
  Speaker C: Yeah. She lived upstairs at my place.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: Nice. Nice. Well, Robert, let's go back a little bit. Get. I know you're not from New Orleans originally.
• 19:29
  Speaker C: Well, you know, I grew up in Hong Kong. I was there from when I was 5 till I was 17. I was there for 12 years.
• 19:37
  Speaker A: Wow. Now, what were you doing in Hong Kong?
• 19:39
  Speaker C: My dad was the Far Eastern manager for a business. But.
• 19:44
  Speaker A: But, you know, you were telling me this. Sorry to keep cutting you off. I'm not going to let you escape by this quickly when you're first telling me this. Said this is the 1960s businessman in Hong Kong. I said, was your father really in the CIA?
• 19:57
  Speaker C: I. I honestly can't tell you.
• 19:59
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 20:00
  Speaker C: I really hope he was all right. I really hope he was.
• 20:04
  Speaker A: It's a possibility, but I can't.
• 20:06
  Speaker B: Can't say either that he was a heroin dealer.
• 20:09
  Speaker C: No, I think for sure he was.
• 20:11
  Speaker A: Not that.
• 20:12
  Speaker B: No.
• 20:12
  Speaker C: Nah.
• 20:13
  Speaker A: Okay. So growing up in Hong Kong, you're going to, like, American schools there?
• 20:18
  Speaker C: I went to English schools until my parents actually built the first international school. They were pretty religious and convinced the Lutheran Church to put up the money for an international school. And it was wildly successful. Yeah, yeah. And it was very cool. But I loved my English schools. The English kids were crazy. It was like living in. To Sir With Love.
• 20:52
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:52
  Speaker C: And. And actually. And at King George V School in 1966, I went to school with Kim Gordon.
• 21:02
  Speaker A: Oh, really?
• 21:03
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:05
  Speaker A: In Hong Kong.
• 21:05
  Speaker C: Yeah. She was there for A year or two. And, and I've got the, the class picture from the whole school picture from King George V school.
• 21:16
  Speaker A: Kim Gordon from Sonic U. Yeah, yeah. And were you all friends?
• 21:20
  Speaker C: No, I had no idea.
• 21:21
  Speaker A: All right.
• 21:23
  Speaker C: But she's in the picture. My brother, my two brothers and I are in the picture.
• 21:27
  Speaker A: Okay. Were you playing music at that time or starting to fool around with.
• 21:31
  Speaker C: I had a band with my brother called the Electric Chair. And, and we, we played like Fugs covers. And, and my, the first song I ever played out was Venus and Furs.
• 21:45
  Speaker A: Oh, cool.
• 21:46
  Speaker C: And it was like, we just love that. But I grew up on the English stuff because that, that show Beat Club, that was my church every week.
• 21:56
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 21:57
  Speaker C: So. And then, and then I would come to America. Like every two years I'd come to America for vacation. And in like 1968, we stayed in right by Central park. And, and my parents said, well, you can just go see whatever music you want. And so the Shaffer Festival was across the street. We went to see Tim Buckley and Eric Anderson and Country Joe and the Fish and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. And then the New York Rock Festival was that weekend in Flushing, Queens. And it was the Soft Machine and the Chambers Brothers and Big Brother and the Holding Company and Jimi Hendrix. And. And I was 14. I was like, holy. And after that my mind was just blown.
• 22:49
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 22:50
  Speaker C: And I was like, okay, I'm getting a guitar.
• 22:52
  Speaker A: So you weren't even playing guitar yet at that point?
• 22:55
  Speaker C: Barely.
• 22:55
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, but you, it, it, you saw a path forward.
• 23:00
  Speaker C: Yeah, you're right. Huh.
• 23:03
  Speaker A: So then you went back to Hong Kong and got a guitar and started practicing, just getting records and trying to.
• 23:09
  Speaker C: Started the Electric Chair. Yeah, because. Because at that time there were like those 25 cent pirated albums that came out of Taiwan and they would just like pirate every album on cheap plastic. And so my dad would go on a business trip to Taiwan and come back with like a foot high stack of whatever was new. So you'd get everything from the Fifth Dimension to Leon Russell's Asylum Choir.
• 23:39
  Speaker A: Oh, cool.
• 23:40
  Speaker C: You know, it's like, it's like what? And you know, cheap Thrills and just anything, literally anything that was new.
• 23:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. So you had a tremendous wide exposure there early on.
• 23:55
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker A: Nice. And were you like into all that music, like figuring out all that stuff?
• 24:00
  Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That's how I learned how to play. You just put the needle in the groove and just keep putting it back and back and back until you figure it out.
• 24:10
  Speaker A: Right, right. Somebody, we were talking about transcribing and you know, like. Well, God, some of the stuff is so fast. How do you do that? And the guy, I can't remember what, what name, jazz artist. He goes one note or a time?
• 24:22
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
• 24:26
  Speaker A: Try to get the next note.
• 24:28
  Speaker C: And my sister had a record player and I would put on a record every night to, to sing myself to sleep. And, and, and, and she got, and, and I got Axis Bold as Love, Jimi Hendrix. And I, and I kept wondering like where the guitar was going. It would just come and go and come and go. And then finally I got a stereo record player and, and realized that I'd been listening to the thing in mono for all that time.
• 24:58
  Speaker A: Right.
• 24:59
  Speaker C: And, and it was like I was listening to one channel of all these records. It was like, oh man, you realize.
• 25:05
  Speaker A: Where the other guitar was going? Yeah. All the rest of the sound that was.
• 25:10
  Speaker B: Besides the English kids, were you actually, actually meeting any like people from the home? Like Hong Kong people? Chinese?
• 25:18
  Speaker C: Yeah, we, we, we. It was a very, very European, right.
• 25:25
  Speaker B: Very cosmic Hong Kong back to the Chinese.
• 25:28
  Speaker C: Yeah, but I was long.
• 25:30
  Speaker B: Yeah, that was, that was just recently kind of like.
• 25:32
  Speaker C: Yeah, I was long gone. I, I left in like 1971. 72.
• 25:37
  Speaker B: Okay, so how old?
• 25:38
  Speaker C: I'm old, baby. I'm, I just turned 71.
• 25:42
  Speaker B: Oh, right on.
• 25:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, so, yeah, but, so you didn't.
• 25:45
  Speaker B: Really mingle much with the locals or did you?
• 25:48
  Speaker C: No, and they wouldn't teach us Chinese because it was a British crown colony and, and the British were like, well, they can learn English. We'll teach you French and Latin.
• 26:01
  Speaker A: Okay, right, so.
• 26:03
  Speaker C: Oh, and I loved your comment on like French people earlier. Yeah, it's like I, I had a friend who worked in LA at this, at this movie house, this movie company for this crazy gangsters. And this one gangster would always try and, and impress people with his French. And so they were, they were reviewing a script and, and he's just like, I like it, I like it. It's got that Satan numb the plume about it. I love that.
• 26:38
  Speaker B: Because now, you know, you just heard this past week, anyone who, any American who are living in China are not allowed to mingle with Chinese or have relationships sexual and non sexual with the Chinese. Yeah, it's a trump order. Trump order ordered this all. Anyone who. Yeah, didn't you hear about this? No, it's true. It's like the, the, the, the State Department has issued this rule to any American who's working for any kind of.
• 27:11
  Speaker A: Big business or federal government do that no contact. No contact.
• 27:16
  Speaker B: Well, no, no, no, no. You know, no relationships. You know, you can't date. You can't say, hey, crazy, you want to go out?
• 27:23
  Speaker A: How can you do that?
• 27:27
  Speaker C: No, that ain't gonna happen. Yeah.
• 27:29
  Speaker A: Anyway, that's crazy. They're even. They're even suggesting that. That Manny bring fresh news to the podcast. Well, so. So you leave in 1971 and, and leave Hong Kong. You're back living in the States. Your whole family moves back.
• 27:46
  Speaker C: No, they were still in Hong Kong. My parents were still in Hong Kong. I'm the youngest of four, so I was the last one to leave.
• 27:52
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 27:53
  Speaker C: And they told me I was going to college in upstate New York. And I'm like, okay, I'll go.
• 28:01
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 28:02
  Speaker C: And I had no idea what upstate New York was like. Even though I was born in Buffalo, I never lived there. And so I had a jean jacket for the winter. I had no idea what snow was like or anything like that. Like. And. And so I got through four years of Syracuse University.
• 28:24
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 28:25
  Speaker C: But. But my brother was going to Rochester and, And Rochester Institute of Technology, and we would just take the bus down to New York City every weekend and just go see every show we could. So we'd be at Max's Kansas City, and. And Debbie Harry was the. The. The greeter at the door and a waitress, and. And she was so sweet. She would just be, it's the boys from upstate. Let them in, let them in. And so, And. And I have such a soft spot in my heart for Debbie.
• 29:02
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 29:03
  Speaker C: She's such a dog.
• 29:04
  Speaker B: I don't think she's a natural blonde though, do you?
• 29:06
  Speaker C: I don't know, baby.
• 29:07
  Speaker B: That's what I heard.
• 29:08
  Speaker A: I don't want to dart, though.
• 29:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, she's in. Nice kid.
• 29:11
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 29:12
  Speaker A: Well, that's very cool. So then you wind up moving to New York City.
• 29:15
  Speaker C: Yeah, we. My brother and I moved there in 76 and got an apartment on the Upper east side for $250 a month, rent controlled. And that was like. That was the bomb, right? And. And there was this crazy bunch of people who worked at a record store up the street called the Musical Maze. And there was this tall, weird, amazing guy named Eric, and then there was this other guy named Brian, and they were like, you gotta come see our band. We're called the Cramps, and we're opening up for Blondie. It's one of our first shows. And so we went down to Max's Kansas City, and it was just one of the most mind blowing things I've ever seen.
• 30:07
  Speaker A: Right.
• 30:08
  Speaker C: And Lux came out wearing a guitar with a huge kitchen knife through it and through all the strings. And he just comes out and goes, my name is Johnny Cash, and just rips the knife through all the strings. And then they start the set. And afterwards, I watched them packing up their gear into the van. I'm like, don't you guys need any help? Or. I mean, you're packing up your own gear. You shouldn't be doing that. You know, you just played a great show. And they're like, you want to help us? And that's how I became their roadie for the first four years.
• 30:51
  Speaker A: Wow. So that's still. At that point, Miriam Lena was still the drummer.
• 30:54
  Speaker C: Was definitely the drummer. She was great.
• 30:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Speaker C: I loved Miriam. She. Her whole. Her whole drum kit would fit into a duffel bag.
• 31:04
  Speaker A: Oh, really?
• 31:05
  Speaker C: Yeah, she used to. Or she. Or I would carry it around in a duffel bag.
• 31:11
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 31:11
  Speaker C: And. And then Nick Knox came in as a drummer. And Nick and Brian were living in their rehearsal space underneath the sidewalk on the Bowery with just, like, one electric light, no plumbing.
• 31:30
  Speaker B: So why. What happened to Miriam? How come she got replaced on drums?
• 31:34
  Speaker C: Ask. Ask Lux and Ivy.
• 31:37
  Speaker B: Okay. You have no insight.
• 31:39
  Speaker C: They had very, very particular. They had a vision. I mean, that's why the Cramps had such a long career. Even. Even before they started Lux and Ivy, they. They just knew. They knew what they wanted and they were gonna get it.
• 32:00
  Speaker A: It was a fully formed idea.
• 32:01
  Speaker C: Absolutely.
• 32:02
  Speaker A: You know, it's like I had in my notes, and I didn't make this up, but, you know, the Cramps is more than a band. It's a lifestyle. And so, you know, I've known you for a long time, you know, known each other, you know, casually and as colleagues. Then we wound up getting in a conversation a couple of weeks ago. And you're kind of telling me some of these stories. And of course, the Cramps is, you know, one of my early touchstones, as should be. And I started talking about, you know, the Gravest Hits record and what a shock that was to the system for me. The first time I heard Surfing Bird, I couldn't make it through the whole track. I had to have my friend take the needle off just so I could kind of get my wits about me. But then next time I was at his house, like, yeah, put that record back on.
• 32:52
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Speaker A: And you say, well, you know, the back of that record, you know, the photograph on the backside. I have my original copy of Gravest Hits here that I bought, you know, probably 1980 or something. And you describe, you said, you know, the photograph on the back has Lux crawling across the seats and Brian Gregory is laying on his back. And he said, and I'm on stage crouching down and I go and look at it today. I was like, there's Robert. So obviously that's you. Even though it's not a very, you know, high res photo or something. But yeah, you can clearly see that. So I mean, I must have stared at this photograph for hours, man.
• 33:31
  Speaker C: And you know, there's a lot going on.
• 33:33
  Speaker A: There's a lot going on.
• 33:34
  Speaker C: People running away, screaming and you know.
• 33:39
  Speaker A: It has the liner notes by the great Joe Sassfi, who I later wound up staying at his house when I was on the road with Alex Shelton. Yeah, he was a good friend of Alex's.
• 33:49
  Speaker C: I have no idea who that is.
• 33:51
  Speaker A: He's a. He's a writer from the, like the D.C. area. So they. But he was a Cramps fan, you know, great rock and roll, you know, writer enthusiast.
• 34:03
  Speaker B: Who took that picture?
• 34:05
  Speaker A: This is, this is by Stephanie Chowski.
• 34:08
  Speaker C: Oh, Stephanie, right. Yeah. And there's tons of people in the audience. There's Christian Hoffman. There's Bradley Fields, the drummer from Teenage Jesus and the Jerks. Oh, man, there's the vodka twins right there.
• 34:23
  Speaker A: Well, you know, the last line of this really sums it all up for me. In this Joe Sasfi line of notes, it says, the cramps don't pummel and you won't pogo. They ooze, you'll throb.
• 34:38
  Speaker C: He got that. He got that right.
• 34:40
  Speaker A: So when I found out that you had this cramps association, I was like, well, that seals the deal for me. So.
• 34:49
  Speaker C: Well, Brian and Nick were. Brian and Nick were living in that basement. And I'm like, you guys, I've got a one. I've got a one bedroom apartment. We've got plenty of room. Why don't you just come and stay with me on the Upper east side, okay? And they moved in and we were this little trio for two years. And Brian Gregory would make up business cards that just said foot massage by Mr. Gregory with his phone number on it. And he would go up to Lexington Avenue, fifth Avenue, and just hand out cards to all the old ladies because he loved old ladies.
• 35:31
  Speaker A: Oh, really?
• 35:32
  Speaker C: That was his jam.
• 35:34
  Speaker A: Wow. No kidding.
• 35:35
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if anybody ever took him up on it.
• 35:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, he was. Could. Could be quite a. An imposing, A scary looking dude.
• 35:46
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:47
  Speaker A: Well, now, now where was Ivy during all this? She wasn't they.
• 35:51
  Speaker C: They lived on the east side, too. They were in like the. Maybe the 60s or 70s.
• 35:57
  Speaker B: Who?
• 35:57
  Speaker A: Lux and Ivy.
• 35:58
  Speaker C: Lux and Ivy.
• 35:59
  Speaker A: Okay. All right.
• 35:59
  Speaker C: They had an apartment.
• 36:00
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 36:02
  Speaker C: Because I remember at their. They played the Mud Club on a New Year's Eve. I think it was like 77 to 78, maybe, or it wasn't 76 to 77. It's 77 to 78. And they got so up that I had to go to their apartment on the way to my apartment and take Ivy's contact lenses out of her eyes for her. They could not. Not handle it. They just like, okay, I got this. I've been wearing contacts since I was 16, so I got this.
• 36:41
  Speaker A: Holy moly.
• 36:42
  Speaker C: Yeah. So you get to know people.
• 36:44
  Speaker A: Sure, sure. Now. Now, during that time, you're. You're there in New York, you know, the. It's all kind of, you know, teenage Jesus and the jerks. The whole no wave scene is exploding, you know, and then these. Anne Magnuson, who I find a fascinating, fascinating character she is. So how. What was your associate? You did some playing with her?
• 37:03
  Speaker C: Well, I. I was associated with Christian Hoffman from the Mumps.
• 37:11
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 37:12
  Speaker C: And Christian. When the Mumps disbanded, Christian started a band called the Swinging Madisons with the drummer, Paul Rutner from the Mumps, and Christian and myself and a bass player, usually Joe Katz. And. And originally they had a woman named Allison east on guitar who was really good friends with Rick Nielsen. And. And he taught her a lot of just how to turn up an amp and play.
• 37:45
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 37:45
  Speaker C: And she was great, but she died of cancer at, like 23 or something. And I took over from bass on guitar. And. And so. And. And so that's when I actually started playing out in clubs.
• 37:59
  Speaker A: All right.
• 38:00
  Speaker C: And. And then. And we were actually pretty popular. We were the house band at. At CBGB's for about a year.
• 38:07
  Speaker A: Huh. What. What year would this be?
• 38:09
  Speaker C: Like 79. 79. 79. 80.
• 38:14
  Speaker A: And Anne Magnuson was involved.
• 38:16
  Speaker C: Anne was a friend of Christian's because they. They did the. The new wave vaudeville theater. And Anne was the. And also Anne was one of the. It's. It's a really hotly debatable thing, but she was one of the founders of Club 57, tier three. That. That whole underground New York punk scene, you know, art punk.
• 38:45
  Speaker A: Right, right. This. Anne Magson, later of Bong Water fame. She had. Her and Kramer had Bong Water there.
• 38:53
  Speaker C: Right. And. And we. We actually had a. Well, in Los Angeles. We ended up having a. No in New York. Yeah, in New York. We had a folk band called the Bleecker Street Incident. It was when like the folk revival was starting and you had the Washington Squares and kind of serious folky bands. And we just, we just threw a wrench into that whole thing and we would, we would, it was just a trio, a folk trio, Peter, Paul and Mary style. But it was great. And we sold out Folk City. And she was just a fantastic performer. Yeah, and what a nutcase. I loved her.
• 39:50
  Speaker A: Are you still in touch ever since?
• 39:52
  Speaker C: Yeah, I saw her just this past year. There was a Club 57 reunion in the Los Angeles at. Was it Zebulon? No, I, I can't remember the place, but a whole bunch of people from New York came out and LA people and Christian Hoffman was spinning records. It was, Michael Debar was there. It was really fun.
• 40:18
  Speaker A: I'll bet, man. Well, so another, another real left field kind of performer who I'm fascinated by is Klaus Nomi.
• 40:27
  Speaker C: Oh man, I love Clouds.
• 40:30
  Speaker A: He shows up in your bio. So, so tell me. Well, that was Cloudy Chapter here.
• 40:37
  Speaker C: That was through Christian Hoffman.
• 40:38
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 40:39
  Speaker C: Because Christian and Klaus were very, very close from the New wave vaudeville theater.
• 40:44
  Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. Now, Klaus Nomi being a German national, born 1944, you know, the ruins of the Third Reich. He's growing up in all this devastation. He's a kind of operatic performer, but gay guy, absurdist, listening to Opera on.
• 41:06
  Speaker C: 78S, learning every note and every word. And so he performed opera in, in New York at the New wave vaudeville theater. And no one would believe that he was actually singing live. He was that good. And so he just blew the scene away. And like the Cramps, he was his own vision. He had his own vision of who he was, what his Persona was. And he did that fantastic first album. He did Erg the Music War Movie and I ended up playing on his second album. And in the studio he would be. Would you like me to sing like this or would you like me to sing like this? And we would be taking live tracks while he was singing and it was like, oh my God, I was in heaven. I mean, this was 1980 and, and it was my first session I had ever done.
• 42:19
  Speaker A: Now so you're playing bass.
• 42:21
  Speaker C: I, I, I did play bass on a bunch of tracks and, and added guitar to it as well.
• 42:28
  Speaker A: Okay, now, is that the encore record?
• 42:31
  Speaker C: It's, well, that's kind of a, that it was the simple man album.
• 42:35
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 42:35
  Speaker C: Which is his second album, Them Man.
• 42:37
  Speaker A: The, the, I was listening to some of that stuff today and it's Otherworldly man.
• 42:44
  Speaker C: Yeah, I'm, I'm proud of the guitar solo on simple man because I, I, I channeled, I channeled the Carpenter's guitar player because Goodbye to Love is probably one of my all time favorite guitar solos.
• 43:00
  Speaker A: Right on that.
• 43:01
  Speaker C: And Mountain theme for an imaginary western.
• 43:05
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 43:06
  Speaker C: But I, I like, I love melodic guitar solos. If you can sing a guitar solo that I, I'm so right there.
• 43:15
  Speaker A: Right?
• 43:16
  Speaker C: I'm, I can't shred. I can't hang with shredders, but melodic.
• 43:22
  Speaker A: Yes. I'm, I'm right there with you.
• 43:24
  Speaker C: Yeah, man.
• 43:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 43:25
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 43:25
  Speaker A: Well. And for people that don't know Klaus Nomi, you probably, if you saw David Bowie on Saturday night live performing TVC1 5. They do another song that night. I can't think of what it was. But Klaus Nomi. And he is dressed with the white face makeup and the little black lips. And they carry him. And he has another guy, Joey Arias. Okay. They carry Bowie out in a rigid suit that he's in that he can't walk in. They set him down and they do tvc.
• 44:00
  Speaker C: It's beautiful. It blew so weird. It blew so many minds.
• 44:07
  Speaker A: And, and Klaus singing this super high falsetto.
• 44:11
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 44:13
  Speaker A: Oh, man.
• 44:14
  Speaker C: And I had a beautiful experience this past year. I went to the dentist in Memphis and there was just this, you know, regular Memphis lady behind the counter taking my billing information. And, and I, and she, and, and I was like, can you fix my tooth? I gotta go on tour in a couple of days. And I got a chipped tooth. And, and she was like, oh, you're a musician. Who, what's your name? And she, and by the time I was out, she said, you have to come in the other room with me. I have a question for you. And it's just like this, you know, this regular suburban lady from Memphis, and she's like, I saw that you played with Klaus Gnome.
• 45:04
  Speaker A: Right on.
• 45:06
  Speaker C: I just want to know, was he nice? What was he like? And that just, it just made my, it made my year.
• 45:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Klaus would love hearing that. That Middle America. He was resident. He was Middle America all these years later. Right on. That's very cool.
• 45:24
  Speaker B: What happened to him?
• 45:26
  Speaker C: He was one of the very first AIDS casualties. I think he, he probably, he supposedly like patient zero or something.
• 45:37
  Speaker A: Oh, geez.
• 45:39
  Speaker C: And at that time, nobody knew what AIDS was. And people were terrified to even go close to the hospital. They had no idea how it was transmitted. It could have been transmitted through the air.
• 45:58
  Speaker A: Right, right, right.
• 45:59
  Speaker C: No one wanted to go even close to Where Klaus was. And his manager was such a slime ball that while Klaus was dying, he said, I'll pay your month's rent if you sign your image and publishing to me in perpetuity. And people talk about you. People talk about you, Manny. This guy, this guy.
• 46:32
  Speaker A: It's a real bad guy.
• 46:33
  Speaker C: All right, well, I'm not naming names.
• 46:35
  Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, man, I'm loving these stories. It's like putting you right there in the, the New York scene. But it's about time for us to take our break.
• 46:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, let's take a break. And the nation knows what to do. We'll be right back.
• 46:52
  Speaker C: I'm just a simple man. I have to do the simple things that a simple man can. You, you, you, you are holding out your hand. You want to know the simple things in my simple plan and, and, and I know there's so much to share so what else can I do?
• 47:46
  Speaker D: The best I.
• 48:07
  Speaker A: And we're back. Back with Mr. Manny Chevrolet. I am Renee Coleman, back with our guest, Mr. Robert Mashe. Now, Robert, I know you're kind of new to the podcast, but as our listeners know, this is a listener supported operation and we have PayPal and Venmo links in the show notes and the Facebook posts so that our listeners can avail themselves of those and buy us cocktails and notebooks and keep us in the high cotton that we're, that we're living in. But anyway, so please reach out and if you're enjoying the show, avail yourself of those, as I say. Also we have the Troublemen podcast T shirts available. The, the link is live now. You want to get one, it'd be less delay than usual. Also, follow us on social media, Instagram, Facebook and, and rate, subscribe and review the podcast wherever you're listening to it. Give us five stars. Helps a lot. Cost you nothing. Also, you know, I have lots of dates coming up, so you can check my Renee Komen Facebook page, the link there in the show notes as well, and see where all my dates are. And as well as the iguanas.com you can see where all the Iguanas dates are. Are. And I guess that's about it for now. We don't have any, didn't no one bought us any cocktails this week, so that's cool.
• 49:39
  Speaker C: Oh, that ain't right.
• 49:40
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, you can't, you can't control what, what other people do, Robert. You can only control the work that you do. Right? Just gotta barely keep doing, keep doing good work. Put one hand, one foot in front of the other. One hand in front of your face.
• 49:55
  Speaker C: One foot in front of the grave.
• 49:57
  Speaker A: Right, right. Okay, so back to our guest, Mr. Robert Mashe now. So. So Robert, you're. You've really hit the. The cream of the. Of the spoiled crop there. I don't know. Oh, yeah, you really. You have a knack, you know, that's.
• 50:16
  Speaker C: That cream is turned, baby.
• 50:18
  Speaker A: Well, it's. I find that my career has many of these same weirdo touchstones, you know?
• 50:26
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 50:26
  Speaker A: And I think that's a real talent, you know, it's to find those people, to resonate with those people and to be influenced by those people. To work with two different Seminole New York groups who both have a fully formed concept, you know, going into the game had to have an impact on you. Now at some point you leave New York for la. How does that happen?
• 50:50
  Speaker C: Well, while we were still in New York, Lydia Lunch asked Christian and I to tour with her.
• 50:57
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 50:59
  Speaker C: And we became of one version of the Devil Dogs.
• 51:04
  Speaker A: Oh, nice.
• 51:05
  Speaker C: And we did a Southern tour of America. I remember staying at the Confederate Inner. And we played at a little club in Atlanta. There's actually a really frightening cassette tape of it. And Lydia, she didn't want to do any work, and so she asked. Well, she didn't want to actually rehearse or do anything like that, so she asked Christian to just find a bunch of old blues songs that she could do.
• 51:39
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 51:39
  Speaker C: So. So her whole act was just like two big tits and one huge note coming out of her throat. And. And that was. That was her version of the blues.
• 51:53
  Speaker A: Okay. And how did that go over through the South?
• 52:01
  Speaker C: It was. It. The tape is fantastic because there's this one guy is just like, you suck.
• 52:08
  Speaker B: You suck.
• 52:09
  Speaker C: And I. I couldn't disagree with him.
• 52:11
  Speaker A: Sure. Well, Lydia probably didn't mind that, right?
• 52:14
  Speaker C: Oh, no.
• 52:15
  Speaker B: Oh, is that a German name?
• 52:19
  Speaker C: I don't know, Irish or.
• 52:20
  Speaker B: What is Lunch?
• 52:21
  Speaker C: But she was, she was. She. I think she was brought up in. Around Rochester, New York, something like that. Because I remember she was in tight with the gangsters up there and like when she was a very young girl, like maybe 13 or something. And I remember her telling me that one of her gangster friends who employed her would have her crawl on her hands and knees out to his car and. And watch her from his window and just. And just made her lick the tires on his car.
• 53:03
  Speaker A: Wow.
• 53:03
  Speaker C: And that was her upbringing in Rochester, which probably it explains some of her performance.
• 53:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Her film training for her film career.
• 53:17
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Poetry Film.
• 53:20
  Speaker A: Right, right. Multidisciplinary operation. Really.
• 53:23
  Speaker C: Multi. Melty. Yeah, melty, sure.
• 53:28
  Speaker A: Multi disciplinary now. Now. So, so you. You're traveling the country with. With Lydia and, And that brings you to la?
• 53:37
  Speaker C: No, no, no. We. We also did a European tour.
• 53:41
  Speaker A: Oh, wow.
• 53:42
  Speaker C: With these. It was like new American music and it was like a couple of jazz guys who played Saxon violin together. These like older great jazz musicians. And I got. I wish I could. I wish I could remember their names.
• 54:02
  Speaker A: Like early mid-80s.
• 54:04
  Speaker C: This was 1980, around there.
• 54:06
  Speaker A: Oh, okay, okay.
• 54:07
  Speaker C: And, and, and it was just. It was. The tour was. Was insane. It was just nuts. But for some reason they liked it. So we got back to America and that never happened again. Oh, and the bass player was Rudy Petruti from the Fuzz Tones.
• 54:25
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 54:26
  Speaker C: Yeah. And that never happened again.
• 54:29
  Speaker A: Thank God Jim Sclavonis wasn't still.
• 54:31
  Speaker C: No, he was. He was in one of the iterations of the Devil Dogs.
• 54:35
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 54:36
  Speaker C: And I love Jim. He. What a great drummer.
• 54:40
  Speaker A: He's a talented guy, man.
• 54:41
  Speaker C: And he's with Nick Cave now, right?
• 54:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, has been for, for a number of years.
• 54:45
  Speaker C: Yeah. And then in 1984, the swinging Madisons moved to Los Angeles and kind of bummed around till maybe 87 or so. And then I just, I. I had to fix up my family's house in Buffalo, New York, and just stayed there for a year. And then Gary, the venerable Gary Stewart from. Not the country musician, the Rhino Records. Right.
• 55:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:21
  Speaker C: Who was a dear, dear friend. He. He.
• 55:24
  Speaker A: Sweetheart of a guy.
• 55:25
  Speaker C: Totally, totally. He called me up one day in Buffalo and said, robert, when are you coming to Los Angeles? This guy Steve Wynn just, just abandoned his band, the Dream Syndicate, and he's looking for a solo career. And, and he needs a guitarist, and I want you to be his guitarist. And. And I'm like, well, I'll be there in about a week. And he's like, okay, okay, I'll give Steve your number. And so, and so I'm. I stayed up for about two days cleaning out the house in Buffalo, got a flight and I was. I don't know if I've ever been more tired in my life, but I got a call from Steve and it was like, hey, your. Your auditions at 7:00. And I'm like. And I was just laying down to finally sleep, and I'm like, can we do this another day? He's like, no, no, this is it. Just bring a small amp and your guitar. Let's go to UNCLE Studios, which was our dear friend Mark Walton's. Rehearsal studio. And. And I met Steve and he showed me a bunch of songs, and then we were doing a slow song and. And I had this one beautiful note just going out through the song. And. And he looked over at me and I was sound asleep with this one note going out. And he's like, hire him. He can play in his sleep. I like this guy.
• 56:55
  Speaker A: That's a good line, man.
• 56:56
  Speaker C: And so I ended up playing on Kerosene man and Dazzling Display, his first two solo albums. And we toured like crazy, like, all of 90. 91, 92.
• 57:08
  Speaker A: And Mark Walton was playing bass in the band.
• 57:10
  Speaker C: Mark Walton was in the band. And then he was. Then he left to be in the Continental Drifters.
• 57:19
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 57:20
  Speaker C: And Paula Jean Brown, the beautiful, wonderful bass player. Paula Jean Brown, who was the ex wife of How Gelb from Giant sand, and she was the last Go Go's bass player. She wrote Mad about you for Belinda Carlisle.
• 57:43
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 57:44
  Speaker C: And who was.
• 57:45
  Speaker B: Who was the. Wasn't there a female bass player for Dream Syndicate?
• 57:49
  Speaker C: Oh, Kendra.
• 57:50
  Speaker B: Yeah. Ken.
• 57:51
  Speaker C: Yeah. That was the very first iteration of the band. Yeah.
• 57:55
  Speaker B: No, I saw Dream Syndicate right at the end where I think at. At the Roxy. And it was like one of those nights where just the audience was like, floating on air.
• 58:08
  Speaker C: There you go.
• 58:09
  Speaker B: Such a great show, Steve. Yeah, I remember her being just, like, mystical out there. It was just great.
• 58:18
  Speaker C: Beautiful.
• 58:18
  Speaker B: And the guitar player, the lead guitar.
• 58:20
  Speaker C: Player, that would have probably been Carl Pakota at the time.
• 58:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, it was Roxy and I. And it was amazing because, like, we saw this show. I was like, these guys are incredible. And then, like, I hear, like a month later, they just break up.
• 58:34
  Speaker C: You know, Steve will do that. He's. He's. He's always looking for something. That new kind of kick is the Cramps say.
• 58:46
  Speaker A: Right.
• 58:46
  Speaker C: And bless him, he gets it. He gets it. He. He works hard at it.
• 58:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 58:52
  Speaker C: But. But I ended up marrying Paula Jean Brown.
• 58:58
  Speaker A: Oh.
• 58:59
  Speaker C: And. Which wasn't a very good idea. And.
• 59:03
  Speaker A: And we seemed like we ended up.
• 59:04
  Speaker C: Moving to Tucson in 92. And then. And Mark Walton knew I wasn't happy. And. But. But actually we had some really good gigs, Paula Jean and I. And we. Because we had Joey Burns and Johnny Convertino.
• 59:23
  Speaker A: Well, sides to backtrack. You were in Tucson in 92. You must have known Dan Stewart, huh?
• 59:28
  Speaker C: Oh, sure. Yeah. No, Well, I didn't know Dan Stewart because I don't think Dan was in Tucson at the same time.
• 59:36
  Speaker A: Oh, okay. I thought I had played.
• 59:39
  Speaker C: I had played in Ding Walls in London with Steve and Dan Stewart was there, so we did a bunch of Danny and Dusty.
• 59:47
  Speaker B: Right, right.
• 59:48
  Speaker A: They made that record together. Anyway, sorry to. Yeah, I saw the band with Dan, but go back to your.
• 59:53
  Speaker C: He's a sweetie. And we all have our moments. Yeah. And. And so Mark Walton, who was my best friend from touring with Steve Wynn, he just called one day and said, robert, you're not happy. Come to Los Angeles. Come. Come play with the Continental Drift.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker A: Oh, right on.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker C: Because. Yeah, because I. And, And. And I just. You didn't have to ask me twice.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker C: I was there in, like a heartbeat.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker A: Just on.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker B: On.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker A: On Mark's recommendation or you were familiar with the band.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker C: I was familiar with the band because we would be in. In Los Angeles, and by that time they had the weekly residency at Raji's.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker A: Right. So you saw those Roggies gigs.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker C: I. I was. I was on a bunch of them.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker C: And. And it just melded and. And it was a great fit.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker C: What a great band. The original version of that band was just. It was like. Like the legendary days of Fleetwood Mac, you know, with Peter Green and the original lineup.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker C: It was like. It was that good.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker A: So you're. You're playing with the Continental Drifters. Somehow you. You managed to avoid the. The. The RV trip across the country, which we.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker C: That was. That was the whole original. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I was just not around for that.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker C: That's when I was still.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker A: Dumb luck.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker C: That's when I was having my stay away from Carlo. I. I didn't know that at the time.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker A: I hadn't learned that yet.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker C: I. I was. I was still having my own troubled man life in Tucson.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker A: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Gotcha.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker C: And doing shows with Paula and Johnny and Joey, and Johnny and Joey were in giant sand. But then they formed Calexico.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker C: Which is one of the best bands you'll ever see.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's a very cool scene.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker C: And so then I ended up in Continental Drifters. But it was after. After all of the initial stories and fun.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker C: And van trips, RV trips.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker A: But. But so very shortly after you joined the band, the whole band moves to New Orleans. That's. That kind of brings you to New Orleans.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker C: Right, right, right.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker A: Okay, now. Now, had you ever been in New Orleans before? What was your thoughts on. On the way we live here or.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker C: The very, very first thing I felt when I came to New Orleans was, I'm home.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker A: Oh, okay.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker C: Because. And I realized years after the fact that if you look around the globe, it's exactly on the same Plane as Hong Kong.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker A: Oh, really?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker C: Hong Kong had its typhoon season. We've got hurricane, rain season.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker C: And it's like warm winters. You can wear a jacket. Hot, hot summers, lots of cockroaches.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker A: All right, so you're already attuned.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker C: I. I would. I was. I was literally. It was literally. Wait a second. I'm home.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker A: Ah, I get it.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker C: Yeah, it was. It was. It was. It was really like. Like soul affirming.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker A: Nice.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker C: Yeah. This is my home.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker A: And then to wind up here with a band, such a powerful group that's so embraced by New Orleans and has all these New Orleans connections. You have Carlo Nuccio as your ambassador to the lower echelons of society here.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker A: And then you guys are, you know, named best unsigned band in America by Rolling Stone. You're touring around. Those are heady days, man.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker C: Those were beautiful, beautiful, beautiful years.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker C: All of the 90s until we stopped playing for a while in, like, 2001.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker C: But it was also really difficult because Carlo was completely fucked up. In the mid-90s.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker C: I mean, he was really a mess.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker B: And so how much money did he owe you?
• 1:04:18
  Speaker C: None.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker B: None.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker A: Okay, nice.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker B: Wow. So you never let him money?
• 1:04:23
  Speaker C: No, no.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker B: Oh, you're smart.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. But we basically had to give him the ultimatum. And. And it was like, carlo, you. You gotta clean up or.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker B: Right?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker C: And. And. And we were no angels. We drank like fishes. I mean, we were. We were pretty up, too.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And he was like, what are you. What are you pointing at me for?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker A: It's one of those things that had kind of run its course.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And. And so years later, I was. I'm now playing with Dana Kurtz, the amazing, amazing Dana Kurtz. And she's like, robert, I want to start this electric band. There's all the blues dancers in New Orleans are like, we can't find a band that plays slow enough and greasy enough for us to dance to. And she's like, oh, my God, I've got you. I'm gonna have you fucking on the dance floor. And so she put together this. This band, and she's like, I want Carlo as my drummer. What do you think, Robert? I'm like, well, the good news is you get Carlo. The bad news is you get Carlo. But it was one of the most beautiful things that's ever happened.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker A: Well, Carlo was totally cleaned up by that time and had his wits back about him and still had all the greasiness.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker A: All the Sicilian, in effect, all the Carloisms. Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker C: Yeah, so we had the most beautiful gigs, and also the band is great. It's. It's Dana Kurtz being just such a badass.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker A: Right. Jim Singleton on.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker C: James Singleton on bass. Carlo on drums at that time.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker A: Right, right, right.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker C: And Glenn on Hartman.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker C: Glenn Hartman on keyboards.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker A: And you.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker C: And. And me just trying. Trying to stay out of everybody's way right now.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker A: So in. In more. More recent years, the. The Continental Drifters have had kind of a resurgence of. Yeah, yeah, we have did some reunion shows. The. This fella, Sean Kelly, put out a whole very exhaustively researched book.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker C: It's a really good book.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker A: Really excellent book. We had him on the podcast. Right. Right when it came out.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker C: Oh, that's beautiful.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker C: Oh, that's right. You did.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker A: He's a sweetheart. Very talented musician himself. And then you had also the. The Best of.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker C: There's the Best of Continental Rivers and the tribute album.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker A: Right. Which I played on the. Did a track. Did a Carlo track.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker C: You did Sidestep in the Fight.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker A: We did. We did.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker A: So I saw a few of the shows that. That you guys did at that time, and we did.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker C: We did Jazz Fest, like, three years ago.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker A: Yes, did Jazz Fest. So I'm. I'm standing out in front. It's me, Jeff Treffinger, and John Grow standing together, watching you guys at Jazz Fest. And Jon Gro and I are talking about the. The kind of elegant restraint that you play with and. And how, you know, it's. It's. It's so rare to find someone who plays with. With that kind of taste and restraint.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker C: Well, it's like, it's. It goes back to what I was talking about way earlier. It's like, I want you to be able to sing what I play.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker C: It's like, if you can sing it, then it's memorable.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker C: You know, it's like it goes back to the early days of the Beatles. They didn't have a tape recorder. They were in their van going from gig to gig, and they were coming up with all these songs. They had to be able to remember every riff and every line. So if you can hear a line that's played, whether it's a vocal line or a guitar line, and you can remember it, you can sing it when you hear it back, that's golden to me. That's. That's my happy place.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's a hook. It becomes a hook, you know?
• 1:08:37
  Speaker C: Yeah, but it's like, I'm not looking especially for hooks, but. But it's like. It's more like an orchestrator.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker C: And then. Then a shredder. And. And you never step on the vocal.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker C: And you serve the song.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker A: Yes. Anyway, so the. The musicians out in the audience are. Rest assured, it's translating. Of course.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker C: Thank you.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker A: Something else I wanted to mention about you. You like to be direct with people. You can break something down into the most succinct, penetrating analysis and deliver it in a witheringly humorous way. Now, I understand the attraction of that because I have that same impulse now. People don't always appreciate it. Am I right, Robert?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker C: Let me put it this way. I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time left to suffer fools.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker A: I hear you. I always say, you know, I'd rather tell you when I first start to notice something that you're doing that's going to annoy me before I get to the point where I'm mad at you.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker A: Because if I tell you now and you go, oh, sorry, yeah, then. Then we're all good. If you continue to do it in spite of the warning, then I know you're really trying to piss me off.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker C: Right, right. And you. And you haven't done your job very well either.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker A: Anyway, just. Just had to have that commonality that I think that we share.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker C: I will readily admit that I'm an okay, well, I will give this one a run for his money anytime.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker A: There's worse things in this. In this life. Oh, yeah, Robert?
• 1:10:23
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker A: Well, we're kind of on the. The downslope of the podcast here. You're living in Memphis now?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker B: Why are you staying in Memphis when you love New Orleans so much?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker C: I can't afford to live in New Orleans.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker B: Oh, really?
• 1:10:36
  Speaker C: I just can't afford. Afford to live in New Orleans. Oh, it's. It's a bad idea to have a house here. You can't get flood insurance. I mean, as somebody coming into New Orleans looking to have property or whatever. It's. It's. It's not a. It's not a great idea.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker C: And.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker B: And it is a horrible city.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker C: No, it's a great city.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker B: No, it's a horrible. You think Memphis is bad? This place sucks.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker C: No, no, no, it's a horrible.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker B: If I could leave, I would leave in a second.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker C: Well, I'll tell you what. Come up to Memphis for a few days.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker B: No, I'm not going to Memphis.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker C: See, See, I rest my case. I rest my case.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker B: I'll go visit you. Yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna stay there.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker A: No, you know, we. We have a former guest who has a little satirical show. It's called. Wait, Wait, don't shoot me. About life in New Orleans. Chris. Shout out to Chris Champagne.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker C: There you go.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker A: But the reason you're in New Orleans currently is for the past 26 years, you have been in charge of all the printing for Jazz Fest, all the banners, all the. Not the handwritten stuff.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker C: Yeah. But every.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker A: Everything else. All the. It's crazy, man.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker A: So you're back here doing that. You must be swamped with.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker C: It's. It's actually kind of okay this week.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker C: I. I knocked off at 5 and. And got something to eat in the shower and. And came here. It was easy, but.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker A: So everything that we see at Jazz Fest, all the banners, all the stage dressing, all that stuff you and your company produces, all that.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker C: Well, I'm. I'm part of the art department.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker A: Tremendous.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's great. I love my people and.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker A: Well, we're glad to have you back for all this time. Glad we're able to get you on the podcast. I know. And. And you and. And Dana Kurtz have. You're playing at French Quarter Fest this weekend. This show will come out after the fact, so we can't promote that, but can look for. For you and Dana listed.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker C: But the last Sunday of Jazz fest on the 4th, Lulu and the Broadsides will be on the Lanyap stage at somewhere around 4:00. Ish.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker A: Nice.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker C: And that's gonna be bitching. And. And then we go straight to Vaughn's and play at Vaughn's.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker A: Okay. Put that on your calendar.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker C: Yeah, you're right. Huh?
• 1:13:06
  Speaker A: All right, Robert. Well, man, it's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast, man. Really fantastic.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker B: Thank you so much.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker C: We barely cracked the iceberg.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker A: Well, you know, we'll have to have a part 2 sometime or.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker C: Or we barely open the deodorant.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker A: Okay. The. The crack. The imperialist black.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker C: There you go. Yeah.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker A: As T. Falco would say. All right. Well, as always on the Trouble Men podcast, we like to say, trouble never ends.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker B: But hey, man, the struggle continues. Good night.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker C: Good night.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker D: Baby. My love is deep. Deep as the bottom of the ocean. Your eyes are newborn, baby outshines the sun above. That's a pretty good love, baby. My love will last long as there's life in my body. I swear to you on the Bible, any old time you say that's a pretty good no.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker A: Oh.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker D: Baby, please come on home. Wanna put my arms around you, squeeze you like a tubercle cream? That's how I feel about you? That's pretty to go? Ain't nobody love you like I do? Honey, I know just what to do? I ain't much to look at? I won't win a prize? When it comes to loving? I'll open your eyes? Baby, I love you so? Yes, ma'am, you got me begging and pleading? That's right? Your love is all I'm needing? That's how I feel about you?
• 1:15:23
  Speaker C: You?
• 1:15:23
  Speaker D: That's a pretty good love? James and Carlo do? Baby, I love you so? Yes, ma'am, you got me pain and pleading? Your love is all I needed? That's how I feel about you? That's a pretty good love? That's a pretty good love? That's a pretty love? That's a pretty good love?