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The Occult Rejects with Ike Baker · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen. What What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What a.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Cool Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: This episode we got a very very special guest, somebody
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: I can't even believe I got on the show and.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: This is very exciting.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: But before we get to Eg Baker, we will introduce
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: the other rejects and with me today I got Ethan Indigo.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: What is going on?
• 0:41
  Speaker 5: So?
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: How are you.
• 0:44
  Speaker 6: Well?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Peace?
• 0:45
  Speaker 5: Is an honor to be here and speak with you
• 0:47
  Speaker 5: guys and learn from Mike. This is going to be exciting.
• 0:49
  Speaker 5: I'm really really looking forward to this. Uh Ethan Indigo
• 0:53
  Speaker 5: Smith on all the social media easy to find frequently
• 0:58
  Speaker 5: writing articles and occasionally even books.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: So yeah, honor to be here with all of you.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: Thank you for making it, sir. I know it's like
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: eight o'clock for you, so I appreciate it. And my
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: man Jin then Ninja, what is going on?
• 1:12
  Speaker 5: Sir?
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: How I? What's up? Boss?
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Mister ninety three?
• 1:16
  Speaker 7: I'm going to not famboy maybe well I probably will.
• 1:20
  Speaker 7: So I'm a big fan of Ike show and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 7: in general. And you know I did speak with Greg
• 1:26
  Speaker 7: k yesterday as I subtle Bragg's pre recording, and we
• 1:30
  Speaker 7: talked about Ike's book The Formless Fire and Quote. It
• 1:35
  Speaker 7: is one of the best esoteric contemporary esoteric texts.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Of probably the twenty first century.
• 1:41
  Speaker 7: So you know, so it's big words and so I'm
• 1:48
  Speaker 7: I'm just I'm a little bit in awe.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: So I'll try out to be a nerd.
• 1:51
  Speaker 7: But if you want to follow me, you can follow
• 1:53
  Speaker 7: me on Twitter x at woocomme Born w UK and
• 1:55
  Speaker 7: g Reborn can follow me on Threshold Saints at Threshold
• 1:58
  Speaker 7: Saints on both x I, which is the show, and
• 2:01
  Speaker 7: of course The Gray Lodge the True Gray Lodge dot
• 2:04
  Speaker 7: Com t r v E Gray Lodge dot com and
• 2:07
  Speaker 7: Matt Mura is of course our my co host in
• 2:10
  Speaker 7: that as well as the webmaster and he runs all
• 2:13
  Speaker 7: our socials. So thank you so much. And yeah, I'm
• 2:16
  Speaker 7: really excited. So thanks Snick for setting this up. I
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: know we've talked about it for over a year, so wow,
• 2:22
  Speaker 7: thank you. Hey, you know that'll problem. Hey, my man, Matt,
• 2:26
  Speaker 7: I'm glad you can make it against her. Always love
• 2:28
  Speaker 7: having you here, bro, so let everybody know in case
• 2:31
  Speaker 7: they don't know what you're dealing with.
• 2:33
  Speaker 8: Awesome, super happy to be here. As well, and I
• 2:36
  Speaker 8: was checking out Ike's work and it's really fascinating. Let's
• 2:40
  Speaker 8: have an amazing talk today. So again, Matt Mura always
• 2:43
  Speaker 8: at mattmore nineteen on all socials that is Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Twitch,
• 2:50
  Speaker 8: maybe some other places site for that. There's also my
• 2:53
  Speaker 8: website Kabala dot com. That's k A A b A
• 2:57
  Speaker 8: l a h dot com. A lot of cool updates
• 3:00
  Speaker 8: there that I did last week. Really excited to coming
• 3:03
  Speaker 8: back to working on it and also doing readings, So
• 3:07
  Speaker 8: a lot of space to do readings now, which is
• 3:10
  Speaker 8: kind of betas So if you get it, you're in
• 3:13
  Speaker 8: for a good treat because afterwards, I'll definitely rise the
• 3:16
  Speaker 8: prices because it takes a lot of work to do
• 3:18
  Speaker 8: all this stuff. But I'll keep everyone that kind of
• 3:22
  Speaker 8: started now in a grandfather state, so always getting the updates.
• 3:26
  Speaker 8: And yeah there's the spaces as well. We will likely
• 3:30
  Speaker 8: upload some older spaces in YouTube the coming weeks, and yeah,
• 3:35
  Speaker 8: that's going to be really good stuff. Thanks again for calling.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: No of course, and thank you very much for joining
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: us today, sir. And finally today we are joined by
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: Ike Baker and No Jamatra heads. We are not talking
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: about the Cabala of Nine Chambers. This is the author
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: of a Formless Fire and Etheric Magic, and the mind
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: behind the podcast are Canam. Ike's work lives right between
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: the sweet spot between scholarship and practice, with a Western
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: so teric history, initiatory traditions and the actual mechanics of
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: ritual and theogy without the bullshit. He's also trained in
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: energy work modalities like reiki and keegong, and his newest
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: work builds a full system for working with the ethereal
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: with the ether as a practical experience experiential technology.
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: Very happy again, Like Jim was saying, we'll try not
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: to fanboy this guy too much, but Ike, I'm very
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: very happy to have you on the show. And anything
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: that I left out, please let everybody know you know
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: about yourself and where they can find all your amazing work.
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate you having me on. Honestly, you
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: guys have had some big guests. You've had some big guests,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: You've had some great conversations, so I'm really happy to
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: be able to participate. Yeah, you can find me on
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: ike ike Baker dot com. I K E B A
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: K E r uh anything you want about me is
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: up there. I've got uh my three latest you know
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: podcast episodes. I've got the last documentary style presentation from
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: the Arcanem channel, which you can see it in uh
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: just below in the bottom left or right of my screen.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: A R C A n v M was foolish enough
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: to use the Latin type setting, and uh uh that's that.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: You can find that on YouTube, Spotify and Apple podcasts.
• 5:23
  Speaker 6: Uh. I like to keep things.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I like to keep myself a little available right to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: to to an extent within within reason, to the public.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So for anybody that that listens to this uh conversation
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: we're gonna have today and wants to reach out and
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: wants to have a few words on my website at
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: the bottom right hand corner, there's a little chat widget,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: and whatever you write in there, please be nice, comes
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: straight to my personal inbox.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: That'd be rough for me. It's it.
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: It's rough for me.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: That's awesome.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: So I guess if you don't mind, I mean, I
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: hate to just jump right into it, but uh, I
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: guess where did you find yourself out one day walking
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: down this path?
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Like was there a moment in history that you still.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Remember or a thing that happened or whatever, like opened
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: up a book and they're like, oh my god, this
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: is it?
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: You know, was it a gradual thing?
• 6:17
  Speaker 6: Like you know, well, it's.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: It's a story. It's definitely a story. And I've told
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: it a bunch of times. So anybody that's heard it, sorry,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: bear with me. No, no, no, it's you know, for
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: your audience. I'd I'd love to tell it because it's
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: kind of interesting. I as a kid, I had I'd
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: always studied comparative religions. It was very interested and pulled
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: towards the mysterious, the newminous. I liked being in religious buildings,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: temples and cathedrals and things that for some reason it
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: it scratched aniche that I I wasn't fully aware I had,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: and as I got older, I began to study stuff.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: But the thing is, I wasn't you know, I'm originally
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: from Long Island, New York, so it's you know, it's
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: one of those things we're growing up in the late
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: nineties and early two thousands in my neighborhood.
• 7:11
  Speaker 6: What was available to me was like Dan Brown, occultism.
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: You know, I didn't have.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize that I had little esoteric pockets and
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: communities just yet when I was like, you know, seventeen eighteen.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: So I studied at a very topical level Cabbala, freemasonry,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: things of this nature, without being involved.
• 7:33
  Speaker 8: And then.
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: Things take a dramatic turn.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I was about nineteen years old and my aunt had
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: a tenant, very nice lady, very quiet, lady, kept to herself.
• 7:45
  Speaker 6: One day she threw herself in.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Front of a train, and my aunt goes down into
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: the apartment and she sees that this lady was a hoarder,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: and she's got.
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: These books, stacks of books.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Like in the movie is Where You Got There's there's
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: like pathways and things, journals still wrapped in the cell
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: of Phane. So she asked me, over right, I mean,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: anybody that's interested in the occult, you know, heavy, the
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: deceptively heavy.
• 8:11
  Speaker 6: A box full of books can be.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: So she invites me over to to help her, you know,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: clear out the apartment. And I found this one book
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: and it's still on my Kabbala shelf over there, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: it was called The Oracle of Kabbala by Richard Sideman.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: And it's a very thin book. And I know this
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: is weird, right, It's the dead lady's property. But do
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: you mind if I take this? And she says yeah, sure,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: of course. So the next day I walk around my
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: neighborhood in Babylon and I read the whole thing because
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: it was very short. Now, when I was done reading it,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that I was necessarily educated to a
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: greater depth or degree than I was before I read it.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: But something in me struck a chord. It was like,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I know this is important. This is the untapped, the
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: unopened drawer. Really to get into this, to really get
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: into this, like, let's figure this out so.
• 9:11
  Speaker 6: When people use these things.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: I went on the white pages or the yellow pages
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: on the internet and I typed in Long Island Kabbala
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Study Group really guy's name and information came up.
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: Reached out to him. He got back to me.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: He said that group doesn't meet anymore, but there's this
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: other thing. And the other thing was the Hermitic Order
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: of the Golden Dawn, and I didn't really.
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: Know what magic was.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I kind of stumbled into that door and it didn't
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like it was like, oh.
• 9:40
  Speaker 6: This beautiful path.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Immediately I was actually a no call, no show to
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: my first initiation, I totally flaked out because I was nervous.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't really know, you know, what the hell what
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: am I doing here? These people think they're doing magic
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: like Harry Potter wand waving shit like this is crazy.
• 9:57
  Speaker 6: But several years.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Later, my life suffered like a total collapse, and something
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: in my gut, so I mean my entire body was burning,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: telling me you got to go back to these folks.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: And so I went hat in hand and I said, please,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm really sorry, but I feel like I
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: have to do this, and they gave me another shot,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: and now the rest is history. I'm a senior Adept
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: of the Hermitic Order of the Golden Dawn under the
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Cicero lineage, and I am the imperator of the North
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Carolina Temple that we run out of Asheville.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: That's wild. The guy moved from Long Island to North Carolina,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: just like me.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: Fucking bugged out. When I was talking him, I was
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: just like, wait, what's going on right now?
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's one of those states that if you
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: move from a place like Long Island, it's not like
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: depending on where you go.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: But I felt like I just moved to portion Road.
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: The suburbs down here are not not culture shock. They're
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: they're not Yeah, it's not like too crazy. Although my
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: fiance and I were living out in the country tree
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: for a while and we lived but we had like
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: amish neighbors.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Was wow, yeah, my cousin's got that.
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: He's like thirty minutes out of Rally, he's got like,
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: you know, his neighbors were like, you know, the real
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: country people. But yeah, by where I'm at, it almost
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: looks like kind of like three forty seven or something
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: like over my Stony Brook, like it's you know, still
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: it's still got shit going on. It's just that, you know, ridiculous.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so all right, yeah, you know what's I
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: think the first book I ever came across, and it
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: did pique my interest, and I think that's what actually
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: kind of made me start like talking to other people
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: in high school that were into magic or witchcraft.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: It was a fucking necronomicon.
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: Actually, one of my friends had it, and uh, I
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: don't even know where the fuck he got it from,
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: but he had it and we started reading it and
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: like one day it was just like, oh, like I
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: think we're in his basement trying to do something out
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: of it, and you know, who the fuck knows what
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: we're doing back then. But that definitely did, uh, I
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: guess interest me and make me think it was you know,
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: possible or real.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Stuff like that was real.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: So kind of like after that, I think I started
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: become intrigued by other stuff and eventually I got.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Into this stuff, I guess real. No, not not too fast.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: But these books that you have, uh, would you like
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: to like at least you know, I would like to
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: give you a chance to kind of promote them. I
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: give people a little bit of an understanding of what
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: some of them are about, if you if you want to.
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we can talk about that.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: I did spend the last three years of my life
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: putting them together. Yeah, I think it'd be worth it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: My first book came out twenty twenty four, and that
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: was Under Tree, a Prima press or, a Masonic imprint
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: out of Phoenix, Arizona.
• 12:36
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: You know the great Masonic astrologer Jamie Paul lamb Is,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: who was actually a mentor to me. Oh, he's been
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: on here too, Yeah, Jamie's Jamie's like, Uh, that's my guy.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: If there's if there's no Jamie, there's no Ike. I
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: tell people that all the time. But yeah, he said,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: they published my first book. And they basically said, you know, hey,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: would you well, you ever thought about writing a book?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: And I said, I'm an a cultist, of course I have,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: But like, what hell am I going to say in
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: a way that is, you know, how can I contribute
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: in a way that's as eloquent as you know, somebody else,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: one of these great authors in our tradition.
• 13:17
  Speaker 6: But after a while, I was like, you know what,
• 13:20
  Speaker 6: I checked in.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I did some divination, I did some ritual and I'm like,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: this actually might be a really cool opportunity. Let's see
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: what happens. Let me allow myself to be guided. And
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: so I said, what do you want me to write about?
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: And they said, you can write about literally anything. And
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: then I just kind of arrived at this conclusion that
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: if I if I can write about anything, I'm going
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: to write about everything. So a formuless fire is laid
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: out to give the history, theory, and practice of Western
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: esotericism from the as far back as we can go
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: in you know, Sumerian Mesopotamian cultures up until about you know,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties with the Orem Solis and uh and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: and the the Wick and Revival and things of this nature.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: But I really really dial down into a lot of
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: different histories because I'll be frank, the person that I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: had in mind reading this was a new Mason, Okay.
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: But the thing is, like that is a common trope
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: in occultism.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: This new Mason kind of wanders in and he's you know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: starry eyed, and he's he's got a lot of enthusiasm
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: and and you.
• 14:32
  Speaker 6: Know, very green.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Doesn't matter how old you are, you know, but many
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of us come in and we're just like, oh, this
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: is a new world. And then you eventually go down
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: these these roads. You get shoulder taps to participate in Martinism,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: or one of the appendant bodies or one of the
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Rosy Crucian bodies, and you start discovering, oh, all these names,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Ruis Kellner, Westcott Mathers, and you see all these Masons,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: all of them were Mason. These people who created you know,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: the Oto, the original Oto, Carl Kellner and Theodore's the
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Golden Dawn, the Societist Rosie Cruciana in Anglia, these guys
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: were all Masons.
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: They were very esoteric. So the thing is, now.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: All this stuff is is seeing a mainstream kind of
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: uh appearance and somewhat of a support. So so now
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: it's like it's not just not just Masons, but it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: like like like early Masons, Masons early in their career.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: It's like almost anybody can come to this stuff and
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: be looking around like almost overwhelmed.
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: What is this?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: How do I get involved? How do I keep my
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: my my footing sure? And so that's that's who I
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: wrote the book for. So I give you really a
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: very thorough contextualization of the entirety of the tradition to
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: the best of my ability. So that goes through Platonism, Neoplatonism, Hermetism, Hermeticism, gnosticism,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: and all the way up into the occult revival and
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: things of this nature. I go into Martinism Elu Cohen
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: as much as I could fit. I got a couple
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: of I got some pushback from the Barden people. They
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: were like, oh, you should have written more about him.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: At that point it gets it turns into a slippery slope.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, the book's like almost five hundred pages as
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: it is, but yeah, and then at the end there
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: are I think eight or nine appendices with practical instructions
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: for everything from preparation of an alchemical or spagiric preparation
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: to the consecration of salt and water to middle pillar
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: exercise and the lesser ritual of the Pentagram with my commentary.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: So it was quite an intense work, and Jamie edited
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: it and so did Jake Treyer, and we.
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: Put it out and it was immediately critically received.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Well, so.
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: There's that that's still available.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And then E Theoric Magic I released with Lluellen Luellen Worldwide,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: that came out this year.
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: In April, and.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that also has a kind of a funny story.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: I was at the Sacred Space between the World Conference
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I think in twenty twenty four, twenty three EVO Domingas
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: had invited me to go up there, like kind of
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: last minute.
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: I had take off work.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: We're going to set Carpenter at the time, and I
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: drove up to Maryland and I didn't really look at
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: the schedule. I just had like three four days to
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: get this whole trip together. I get up there for
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: the morning of the second day and I look at
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the schedule. This is the first time I've laid eyes
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: on the schedule and it's right there, like eight o'clock
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: in the morn you got five minutes in a room
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: with a Lleuellen editor to pitch them a book.
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: And I was like, yeah, I'll do this.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know you could do this shit at conferences,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: but yeah, let's give an issh just so I get
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I get online and the line is dwindling. You know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: I'm getting closer to going in and I realize like,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: oh shit, I don't have a book. I just kind
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: of hopped online in my excitement and I didn't like
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: think about what I was going to pitch.
• 18:28
  Speaker 8: Uh.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: This is the kind of overconfidence I sometimes can have
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: that my fiance will tell you all about. Just I'm
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: the guy in the pool fully clothed while everybody else
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: is getting their swimming trunks on.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I just dive in.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: But it almost immediately dropped into my head. It's like, listen, dummy,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: what about the stuff you've been doing for the last
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: ten fifteen years. Right, You've been a practitioner in the
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: system of Western ceremonial magic, and you've also been a
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: practitioner right studying and practicing Chinese medicine, body work. They
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: make you take elective. That's how I got into chigung.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I had to take chigung classes. I went to school
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: up in.
• 19:12
  Speaker 6: Sciacid at the.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: New York College of Health Professions, and I got my
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: you know, my massage therapy degree. I went to school
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: also in Stonybrook, very shortly for physical therapy. But really,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: my love, there was truly an acupunctured Chinese medicine.
• 19:26
  Speaker 6: And with that came all the energy work.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: And I realized at a certain point, these are two
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: things that need each other, you know, they are two
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: sides of one coin. And in the West we don't
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: have as sophisticated a vernacular and a framework and a
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: system for working with the energy that ultimately empowers your magic.
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: So I was like, yeah, talk to her about that.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: So I talked for five minutes, told her about this
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: book idea. My editor said, sounds good. Send me your
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: introduction and a chapter sample. I was like okay, and
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I went to the I went to the dining room
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: and the conference hotel. I wrote everything there and sent
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: it to her, and yeah, that book has done. It's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: done really well. It's being translated into into other languages.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: We're gonna do uh nice, Yeah, we're gonna We're gonna
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: do a follow up too eventually.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: That is awesome. Uhboy, when I ask anything, Gin, you
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: want to ask.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Anything, Yes, I do.
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: I've been waiting. Thanks Snaki obviously read my mind on
• 20:28
  Speaker 7: the eighth wave. I this is tangent gentile to what
• 20:32
  Speaker 7: you were saying, but I think it actually fits in
• 20:34
  Speaker 7: perfectly with the theme of books. So on your episode
• 20:38
  Speaker 7: on his show, recent episode with Greg as well as
• 20:41
  Speaker 7: with Jamie, who's probably the.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Best cabalist I've ever met, probably.
• 20:46
  Speaker 7: And I always thought of myself as quite good, as
• 20:48
  Speaker 7: Matt and Joshua both know, And it was a little
• 20:52
  Speaker 7: bit of a shock, but I humbled myself beforehim.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: No, I didn't even know what to say to the guy.
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: I was.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: Kind of blew my mind.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 21:02
  Speaker 7: Jamie's extremely impressive and it comes up often on the
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: show because of his like innovative way. He's pretty much
• 21:10
  Speaker 7: redefined that astrogoetic the works that he outlines me, no
• 21:15
  Speaker 7: one else is even comes close to what that is.
• 21:18
  Speaker 7: And so that was a big honor to speak with
• 21:21
  Speaker 7: him some. Thanks again, Nick, But you've talked about the
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: importance of kabala as kind of a backdrop of the
• 21:29
  Speaker 7: working reality. And this is something that we talk about
• 21:31
  Speaker 7: in the Gray Lodge with Matt and the branch Joshua
• 21:34
  Speaker 7: all the time. Matt calls it pop kabala. I call
• 21:37
  Speaker 7: it speculative kabala. I know that's not quite the same,
• 21:39
  Speaker 7: but there's an overlap that where we both understand each other.
• 21:43
  Speaker 7: And I just want to if you have a few
• 21:46
  Speaker 7: words on that, just simply because it's something that like
• 21:48
  Speaker 7: we've done a whole kabala series on this show, and
• 21:53
  Speaker 7: Nick and I obviously became friends because of it sort of,
• 21:56
  Speaker 7: and you know, so I think it is under appreciated
• 22:01
  Speaker 7: and under sort of articulated way to map both map
• 22:06
  Speaker 7: Western esotericism, but maybe also map more universal primordial maybe
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: if we want to be a little Evolian or because
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: I'm not a perennialist, I'm really more of an ax list.
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: But I just think that that's an interesting kind of framework,
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: like you can map both things onto the tree and
• 22:24
  Speaker 7: then you can also understand things through the tree.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I know that's a quite I've got.
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: A lot of thoughts on that.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: I just finished teaching a course over We did six
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: sessions called Hermetic Kabbala for practitioners and initiates, and I
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: was very successful. We went We're very very deep. We
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: did a really really thorough deep dive. Now, the thing
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: is this, You've got different categories of kabbala, right, which
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: is sometimes a reduction and an oversimplification, but look, it works.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: People get on me, They get on my ass about
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: the same thing I say, East tradition, Western tradition. We
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: understand it's part of a whole. But if you want
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: to be a really good mechanic, you can't call everything
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: under the hood. Car Like, we need to be able
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: to talk about this stuff and express distinctions so that
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: we can compare and contrast. And so her Medic Kabala
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: is quite different than Hebrew kabbala or ultimately derivative more
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: so from Christian kabbala, right, because this is who the
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: really the creators of What we understand is that her medicabala.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: They were reading Noir von Rosenwrath, they were reading Althanasius Kursher,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: they were reading Joannis roy Klin, and so they were
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: also reading the Seffayette Seira, but very very small book,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: and it's it's that is much more Hellenistic than.
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: Some of the other like say the Zohar, so her
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: medicabala is something that is is where you it has
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: been abstracted. Right.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: People say, oh, kabbala is Hebrew mysticism. I don't think
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: that's accurate. I would say kabbala is a system of
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: esoteric exegesis interpretation. They're taking this framework and they rabbis
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: are applying it to their scripture nowhere else, and they're
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: interpreting their scripture. Now the Christians come, they get it
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: really through Pico della Mirandola, and they start they start
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: drilling into Hebrew and Christian scriptures. The Hermetic caabaalist takes
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: it out of scripture and say, okay, we can apply
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: this to this, to that, to tarot cards, to everything,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and so it becomes this great filing cabinet that really
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: eventuates in the system of the Golden Dawn.
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: That codification seven.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Seven seven that Crowley put out was actually a Golden
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Dawn pamphlet that he took and published. But they had
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: done many of those initiates had done that work to
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: to sort of make these correspondences, and it goes back
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: even to the sort of the French systems of esoteric
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: masonry like Martinism and the Yelu Cohen, and not so
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: much Martinism, but I would say more than the Yellu
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Cohen and things of that nature, stuff that has this
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: quasi chivalric Masonic thing that were toying with the Kabbala
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century and started coming up with these ideas.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: But really it reaches its perfection into how we understand
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: it today through the Golden Dawn, and then it seeds right.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Regordi takes it, the Unfortune takes it, Crowley takes it,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Franz Barden takes it, very similar system to the Golden Dawn,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: and they proliferate it and so that you've got a
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: lot of the tradition through that swath, and so that
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the key is to bring bring the pieces back together.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: But there's if you can understand the Kabbala as a
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: system of correspondences through the gold and Dawn, you can
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: understand any kind of Kabbala because it is it's the
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: most i would say, rigorous, inclusive.
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: At the end of the day, it's a framework.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: The biggest thing that I tell people is you come
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: to this stuff and if you're too rigid, because at
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: a certain stage in the Golden dawn work right, you
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: drill down you all this rote memorization of what correspondences
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: go where, and then that all gets turned on its
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: head and everything gets put upside down and over here
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: and over there.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, that's this left brained kind of approach
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to information that modern people have that doesn't work with magic.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Everything has to be you have to prepare for this
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: stuff to permutate, be used here, be used there. It's
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: useful to ingrain that system of correspondence is memorize the tree,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: work with the tree. But at the end of the day,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you've got to be willing to give up what you
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: think you know about it because it's a framework, it's
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: a scaffolding. It's a scaffolding. The Kabbala itself is not
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: capital t truth. If anything, what you will experience through
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: it is much more of an essentially true nature, particularly
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: in your experience.
• 27:12
  Speaker 6: So that's the whole key. You know, we don't want
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: to over intellectually.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I say this with hundreds of books surrounding me, but
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: you really don't want to over intellectualized magic. You want
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: to have a really, really firm understanding of what you're
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: doing for context and for safety, yes, safety, But at
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, you can't think your way
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: into a transcendent state.
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: You know, it's just not going to happen. So and
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: then the the.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Last thing I want to say about the Kabala is
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: that you have to understand where it comes from. The Kabbala,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the hermetic Kabala given you know as the lineal diagram,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: the vertical diagram of the tree of life, ten sphere
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: oft the twenty two nety vault, the paths, and then
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: you get to three, the the veils of negative exists
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: since the four or really five worlds and the letters
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: of the Hebrew alphabet with the tarot correspondence is that's it.
• 28:06
  Speaker 6: That's the symbol system right there.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: But it ultimately comes from a Hellenistic background. All of
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: this stuff actually has more to do with the Greco
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Egyptian innovations that carried over this Pythagorean tradition, right Gematria.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: In ancient Greece, this was called Isobseephi, right, yes, right.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: The cephi were the little counting stones.
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: They didn't have.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: They didn't use numerals like we use Arabic numerals, and
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we've abstracted it. The Greeks were counting with stones and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: seeing what shapes do these numbers make. That's where you
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: get this concept of triangular numbers, square numbers, oblong numbers.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: It's because they were arranging pebbles. So isopsephos means equal pebble.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So you add up the numerical value of this word,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: it's got this many pebbles, and this one over here,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: this word has the same amount of pebbles.
• 29:01
  Speaker 6: They're related.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: The word Goematria comes from the Greek hel matria geometry.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: So the Kabbala almost in its entirety, is Hellenistic.
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: But here's the issue. We don't have the Hellenistic tradition.
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: We have the philosophy, we don't have the practice. So myself,
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: being a Hellenistic Theurgic reconstructionist the best of my ability,
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: I just got back from a nine day excursion in
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: Upper and Lower Egypt with a group of about twenty people.
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: I reconstructed Theurgic rituals. We were on site.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: We had private access to the Osirion, to the Sekhmet
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: sanctuary to Dendara. I taught astrological magic on the roof
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: of the temple to hatorat Dendra, so we were doing
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: all this Theurgic Hellenistic stuff. It was absolutely incredible. But
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the Kabbala is the
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: better system practically because it's full, we have it. It's
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: a living system, it's a living tradition. Is extremely difficult
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: to have a framework that works with the Western modern
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: mind that is as effective and is as beautiful as
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the Hermetic Cabala.
• 30:20
  Speaker 6: So that's why I still use it.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Is an answer, jan.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I think it was a great answer.
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: I only differ with Ike on a small detail, is
• 30:34
  Speaker 7: that I like, maybe this is untrue, maybe this is
• 30:37
  Speaker 7: just a speculative idea. I always pausit the origin of
• 30:40
  Speaker 7: the tree, or at least maybe it's reintroduction into the
• 30:44
  Speaker 7: kind of Central Asian landscape in the first and second
• 30:49
  Speaker 7: century b eighty in the exile period from Babylon. And
• 30:53
  Speaker 7: I think if you look at what the Zoroastrians. I'm
• 30:55
  Speaker 7: sure you're very familiar with the Sike, but if you
• 30:57
  Speaker 7: look at what the Zoroastrians are doing in this emergence
• 30:59
  Speaker 7: of the filosophy of religion and how they were applying
• 31:03
  Speaker 7: qualities to God.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's very similar in some ways to.
• 31:07
  Speaker 7: Like how Ramic was thinking about Kabbala much later on,
• 31:11
  Speaker 7: and like where they were sort of congregating. I always
• 31:14
  Speaker 7: talk about this as like Lake Baikal, and you have
• 31:17
  Speaker 7: sort of the Buddhist hermitages contract Buddhists, you have the
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: Kabalistic hermitages, you have the Tanngriest hermitages, all existing in
• 31:25
  Speaker 7: this period of like the thirteenth to sixteenth century, and
• 31:28
  Speaker 7: they're all together. And I'm not saying that they were
• 31:30
  Speaker 7: speaking to each other, but obviously, as you're saying, they
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: are speaking a language that is parallel that can be
• 31:38
  Speaker 7: mapped to the tree, that can be understood as expressions
• 31:42
  Speaker 7: of it, or maybe expressions that then can be discerned
• 31:46
  Speaker 7: and categorized epistemically into the Saphra.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why ultimately the tree is the better example,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: particularly because it's got the paths, whereas in the Hellenistic
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: version you have the ten, but they're nested, right, they
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: become the the the ogdoad or what we call later
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: on the the anima mundi or the Thetolemaic model of
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the universe, so they're nested, whereas the tree of life
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: extracts them into this vertical kind of hierarchy or analogy,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: and then it's the paths show these relationships. But I
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: would say that first of all, there's this idea of
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Hellenic orientalism, which is very very apropos if you. But
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: but to drill back to to my further point of
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: why I think it had much more to do with
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the the Neo Pythagorean system is specifically this there are well,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: there's a couple of reasons. There are modern words in
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: the in use in kabalistic circles today Hebrew Hebrew Cabalistic
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that Hassi them still use Greek words to discuss like
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: hayuli highly matter. You know David Kyams Smith who is
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Micabala teach here where one of them. He's expressed this
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: to me. He's like, you will find Greek stuff littered
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: throughout their tradition. They even call him a heretic, which
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: is the word apocauros. Apocauros is a corruption of the
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Greek word epicurus, like the philosopher, the hedonist, the materialists,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: they considered him. You know, a heretic in the philosophical tradition.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot there. But more to the point,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: when you look at the numerical relationships, particularly the Shira,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: it's the Tatractees, it's the Pythagorean toa Tractees. The principles
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: still remain the same, it's just arranged differently and really
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: get you get around the first and second centuries of
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: the Common Era, the population of Alexandria, Egypt was between
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: thirty five and forty percent Jewish. So this this period
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: is called the period of Hellenized Judaism. You get the
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: septuagen translation of the Hebrew Holy Books, you get the
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Merkaba tradition, which was Hebrew theorgy, you get the Hekka Lote,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: you know the palaces which are organized according to the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: this this nested system of cosmology, the same thing. And yeah,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: so you get all of that in this really interesting time.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: But to bring it back to your point, Pythagoras was
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: from Samos. Okay, Samos is extremely close to Anatolia. He
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: would have been more familiar with the Lydians than he
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: would have with with Athenians or you know, people on
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: mainland Greece. So one of the ways that this is
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: represented is that Pythagoras's philosophy was East was influenced by
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: this sort of like, I guess what we're calling the
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: greater West now, you know, we don't want to necessarily
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: break off the quote unquote Middle East. A lot of
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: scholars are saying, well, they contributed to the history of
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: ideas in the West, so it's the greater West. But
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: either way, one of the ways that they represented the
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: origin for Pythagoras's knowledge is to represent him as wearing pants.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Very interesting thing they say that he wore pants. That's
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: not Greek dress. Greek dress is Tunic hymation. They didn't
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: wear pain would have looked and seemed ridiculous. And also
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: some of the more popular depictions of Pythagoras in terms
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: of statuary have him with a turbine on as well.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So this again, this stuff is all kind of from
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: all over the place. But the evolution is very very
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: interesting to watch. And I do think because of some
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: of the things you're saying, these qualities of God and
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: this this verbiage that tracks onto the tree, I think
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: that that is why the tree is still or not
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: just the tree, but the hermetic cabalistic system is still
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: the best practical framework for magic.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: I I just want to say that the David Haym
• 36:03
  Speaker 7: Smith book The Blazing Dew of Stars is probably my
• 36:06
  Speaker 7: favorite personal favorite.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Kabbalistic texts, So I just want to shout that out.
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: David will like that.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: One thing you did mention before, and I know me
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: and JUNI are both big fans of Pico. I think
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: that was actually a very pivotal point too, like like
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: what you're mentioning before, because I feel like when he
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: did that, I feel like it just opened up the
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: doors for many different types of people looking at the
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: kabbala differently, Christians, Catholics, occultists, you know.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: And I feel like.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: Once they did that, like if you're kind of just
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: for me, it looks like it was on and popping
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: after he brought that stuffing. One thing I did want
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: to ask from your opinion, and it's something I've kind
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: of had other people talk about slightly here and we
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: don't have to get too in depth for this, but
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: in your opinion, do you see well, we'll put it
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: this way. In my opinion, I think that Christianity, it
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: was actually highly influenced by a lot of Neoplatonists and
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: people that were actually kind of considered occultist in a sense.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Would you see that as kind of being possible.
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this stuff wasn't a cult.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: It wasn't esoteric until it was until the Enlightenment had
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: its way with us, you know, I mean they were.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: There's so there's a tradition, i'd say, in the earliest
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: eras of Christianity, right when we're calling it Christianities, right,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: this is a similar idea today. There's many sects and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: divisions in Christianity, but early on it was a group
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of what they call eCos which like ecosystem in Greek,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: that's how you say a house. There were house churches,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: people meeting in houses, little little, tiny, tiny communities. That's
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: who Paul was writing to. And at that stage, right first, second,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: third centuries, you get a very very specific Platonic and
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Neoplatonic influence in the theology. In particular, let's not forget
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: that the New Testament was written in Greek, which somehow
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of people still don't know that. But again
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: it's it is very Hellenized in that it utilized the
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: specific Greek philosophical or metaphysical terms like logos. Right in
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: the Joanine prologue one John in the beginning was the word.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: The word used there is logos, and logos means so
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: much more than just word. It means order, it means pattern,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: it means you know, paradigm, archetype of the system. It's
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: not just saying the word. And this is why God
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: in Genesis, right, especially if you've read the work of
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: this scholar who recently passed Russell Gimerkin. In Genesis, how
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: does God create? How does God make the order? He
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: speaks it into existence. God doesn't fashion light out of
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: a light bulb. He says, let there be light.
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: So there's this whole thing.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: It's a very very Hellenic and Hellenistic sort of tradition.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: But in the theology, which is not technically it's derivative
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: from the scriptures. Not in the scriptures, you get the
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Holy Trinity, Father's son, Holy Spirit. Well Tertullian, who was
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: an early church father, would have been swimming in these
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: neoplatonic circles in.
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: That time.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: He introduces this idea of the Holy Trinity, and he says,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: today persona I una substantia, three persons, one substance. This
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: idea ultimately comes out of the Platinium neoplatonic idea. Of
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: the three hypostheses, we have the one that is the
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: three somehow the one is simultaneously three. God is creative,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Deity has to uh simultaneously exist in the beginning in
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: three phases of activity that are that are you know,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: coterminous code contemporary, it's all happening at the same time.
• 40:22
  Speaker 6: So yeah, that gets brought in. Then you get the
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: hierarchies that.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Iamblicus was using, right the ae Ambleaki and hierarchies for theorgy.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: The the third century Neoplatonic philosopher Eamblicus of Calquis, who
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: wrote on the Mysteries and gives us the whole textbook
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: of Greek theogy that so much of our ritual is
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: based on even.
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: In the modern day.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: He comes up with this stratification of of uh spiritual
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: ontology like a ladder of being, and he calls these
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: the gods in the greater kinds, and it gets really
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: really harry. If you want to know more about it,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: did a whole video of it called what is Theorgy?
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: On the arcanean podcast. But long story, shirt is this
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: guy that we now call Pseudodionysus. He takes that hierarchy
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: and he changes the nomenclature. Okay, so in the pagan
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Greek system, they had angels and archangels, but they were
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: lowered down, and then above that were these things called
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: the en cosmic gods, the hypercosmic gods, the liberated gods.
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: Well, if you're a.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Christian, you can't call anything god but God. So he
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: changes the nomenclature, but the way he describes them, the
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: functions remain identical. So yeah, one hundred and ten percent,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: you get a tremendous amount of esoteric philosophy that completely
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: shapes Christianity. And if you've ever gone to like a
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Greek or a Catholic mass, this is when they say
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: the thrones arabeem, serabeam, seraphime, principalities, when they go down
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: that whole archangel's angels. That's the pseudo Dionysian hierarchy that
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: got taken out of Greek paganism. So so there is
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: a tremendous The thing is like, you can don't get
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: your wires crossed and think that they were stealing it's
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: not what they were doing.
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: If I wanted to swim from one from I'm on
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: this part.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: There's water between me. I'm going to that port and
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I want to swim, or I want to row my boat.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I'm rowing my boat. I'm rowing my boat. That's the technology,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the technology of my you know, whatever I'm doing, my actions,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: my work. I'm trying to get there. If my destination changes,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: do I get out of the water and get a helicopter. No,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: I'm applying what I'm already doing to a new destination,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: because it's it's science to them, you know, it's this
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: is this was their science. So they didn't steal so
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: much as they reoriented the traditions they had in a
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: new direction. And so, but later on, and this will
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: probably cap my point. Later on you get like Thomas Aquinas,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: albertist Magnus, and these guys are the Scholastics, and they're
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: much more Aristotelian, but still obviously they're theists. So there
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: remains a very strong mystical and metaphysical component there. I
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: would say Christian mysticism is almost entirely informed by the
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: idea of emanation and return that we get from Platinus.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why. It was another reason why I asked you.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: I had I don't know, maybe a month or so ago,
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: maybe more than that, I did like a solo show
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: on Platinus and there was just a lot of stuff
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: on there that I was like, Yo, you really influenced
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: the shit out of Christianity.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: And you know what I had noticed too. And again
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: I just use this as an example.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: It's probably not the best for everybody because I haven't
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: had the pleasure of going to an alcoholics anonymous meeting,
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: but like, if you go there that's based on the
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: Big Book, but then you will hear all these phrases
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: that actually aren't in there. It's like, oh, you know,
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: I don't even remember him anymore, but they aren't actually
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: in the Big Book, but they sound great. I feel
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: like a lot of ideas that a lot of Christians
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: kind of have that technically aren't in the Bible is
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: kind of like influenced by things that Plotinus and other
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: people said. I think even one of them is maybe
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: the idea of seeing you love the ones and they
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: after life. It's not in the Bible, but that Christians
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: believe that, and I think that might have actually came
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: from Plotinus in a sense.
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's that goes as far back as
• 44:29
  Speaker 6: as as Egypt.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: But are the main myth that we have for it
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: in the West comes from the book ten of the Republic,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Plato's Republic, the myth.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: Of er Oh maybe it was played on.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, still Tousinas. He expands the metaphysics of Plato tremendously.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: But the thing is this, uh, and this is what
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I tried to establish with a formless fire. We cannot
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: underestimate the foundational significance that is still present, not in
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: a vestigial way, but it's here now in our traditions,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: our entire way of looking at this stuff, whether you're
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: a Christian or whether you're a ceremonial magic it's all
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: predicated on Hellenic and Hellenistic philosophy. Now, all this stuff
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: existed in sumer and in Babylon and in ancient Egypt,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: for sure, but we don't get it in a preserved
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: sort of digestible format that is cognizable to the Western
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: mind in the same way that say, the Platonic dialogues
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: are or the writings of Proclus are. We have not
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: inherited that, or at least it hasn't penetrated from academic
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: translation into the mainstream.
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: So really the water we're swimming in is hellenistic here.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: So all of those philosophies constitute what we would now
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: post Enlightenment, post industrial revolution, what we would now consider
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: esoteric or occult. But you know, classical arithmetic, you know,
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: the quadrivium arithmetic, geometry, harmony and arithmetic geometry, harmony and astronomy.
• 46:20
  Speaker 6: These were.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: Not separated from an idea of an essential metaphysic, so
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: they they it. So only later did we kind of
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: drain the the the blood out of the you know,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: our quote unquote hard sciences.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: Now, well, like even in the past, and most of
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: these people that you see, like I mean I've even
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: covered Saint Hildegarden, she was a polymath.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, you have all these people that are actually polymen.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: You know, there was a lot more.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: They looked at everything and like applying it to like
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: every single subject that they studied, which hence is why
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: I have bring so many people on the show, because
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: I'm not a polymnize myself, so i gotta bring everybody
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: with different things together try to make sense of something.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: So you know what I'm saying like, I think that
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: is another huge problem too, is just the education system
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: and the way that we look at things.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: It's just not the same anymore.
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it is a huge problem.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: It's an existential problem for human beings in the twenty
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: first century. We're really we can't it's hard to it's
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: hard to talk about.
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: So I'm not going to.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: But ultimately we really need a drastic reevaluation of education.
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: But it's happening.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: It's happening right now, and it's happening in these spaces
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: right I'm I'm currently studying the Severn Liberal Arts. I'm
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: also teaching the Quadrivium and all of this is happening online.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm not going to a university. I'm not taking out,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: you know, paying Fannie May. None of that's happening. I'm
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: sitting here. I'm not going to be twenty thousand dollars
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: in debt. I am going to interact with a small
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: group of people, you know, compared to a lecture hall,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: and we're going to discuss you know, uh, without bias,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: without reduction, reductive materialist bias and being afraid to feel foolish,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: you know. Like, but that's why i made my channel,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: because I saw a lot of scholars out there doing
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: their thing, and I wanted my channel to be a
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: place where belief was not a four letter word, is
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: not a dirty word, and we come together in these
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: spaces and we learn, you know, and we explore ideas
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: of the the I would say antique or magical worldview
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: maybe let's call it.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: I like that. Well.
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: I do think it's a lot easier for people to
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: actually find what they're looking for now, especially with the
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: Internet like you're getting in.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like the places podcasts like this where
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: you guys are having so many people on it's I mean,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: and it's it's free, you know, people just can consume
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: this stuff and get like a real education.
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: It's it's very high value.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: That's what I try. That's what I'm shooting for. Thank you.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: I'm trying trying my best. That's what I got someone
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: on like you. Is anybody here when I ask this
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: guy any questions or anything? Before I keep going, I
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: have a question.
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: I really liked your uh, your bringing up how the
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: Hebrews used the Greek words to kind of build on
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: their understanding of what they may have been looking at
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: prior to getting these new words for kind of new
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: mapping of the system, if you will, and and to
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: that them, these different streams of systems or information coming
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: together and enhancing. I really like that you brought together
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: the East and West to speak broadly, but just the
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: different studies from the Eastern and West and traditions. And
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: could you maybe expound on how that has helped you
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: understand the different streams by you know, understanding the chigung
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: and the reiki energy systems, and how you might have
• 50:15
  Speaker 5: explored the Western ideas with the Eastern knowledge and maybe
• 50:21
  Speaker 5: vice versa.
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: It's kind of, you know, my big project, I guess
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: my life's work is trying to show because it's it
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: can't just be done in a single book like in
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Etheric magic. It's kind of the introduction, but it's part
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: of a larger conversation. And I spent a lot of
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: years engaging in what I called, you know, spiritual exoticism.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I went to the farthest parts East and looked at
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: zen and looked at yoga because I didn't understand what
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: was under my nose. But now when I come back
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: to these systems.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: I see that.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Culturally on like a cultural DNA level A blueprint level.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: I understand the Western system more than I understand the vernacular,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: the nuances, the subtleties of something like zen which was
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: my first meditative practice.
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: I studied with the Zen ro sheets says en meditation. Uh,
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: And that's great.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: If you put a gun to my head and said
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: you got to choose meditation or ritual, there's no way
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: I could part with my meditation.
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: You know, It's just I just can't do it. But
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: the understanding of.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: These things really, for me, it starts from the Western perspective.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: So what have we got? All Right?
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: I'm into magic. I love magic. Let's look at some
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: of the the you know, the quintessential magical texts in
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: the West.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Well, you look at you got to read on the mysteries,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: because he gives the whole system of what he called,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Eamblicus calls sinthema da, which then Agrippa right,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, writing.
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: Like eleven hundred years later, he calls it the Latin sigillum.
• 52:12
  Speaker 6: And this all means signatures. It's why you have a
• 52:16
  Speaker 6: certain incense for a certain planet or a certain god.
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: It's literally why use a certain herb. It's because their
• 52:22
  Speaker 6: essences are diffused throughout everything in the cosmos. If you
• 52:28
  Speaker 6: read what they were talking about the gods.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: The gods really are numbers, but we anthropomorphize them so
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: that we can understand them through human like or you know,
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: animal like images.
• 52:43
  Speaker 6: But at the end of the day, it's very very abstract.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: They're the root essences of all causality that diffuse themselves
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: and create everything in the cosmos. So a rose, for instance,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: the petals, the aroma, the silky texture, the color that's
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: gonna be very Venusian or aphrodite if you like. But
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: arose typically has thorns, not Venusian, very marshall, it has roots,
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: very Saturnian.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: So this as.
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: This is, it really has tremendous bearing on Agrippa's system
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: of magic. That is where everything you know, especially Golden
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Dawn magic comes from. So then you start looking and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: you're like, all right, we've got all the theory, we've
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: got all the philosophy, but where is the actual system
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: And that is not as well preserved in the in.
• 53:36
  Speaker 6: The West, in systems of like Chinese medicine.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Really most forms of traditional medicine, particularly in the East
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: these are kind of these right under your nose, secret
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: agglomerations of this tradition of signatures, right, and we've kind
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: of thrown it out in the West in favor of
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: allopathic medice in the pharmaceutical industry, which at first was,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you know, really really reliant on something like Paracelsian medicine,
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: which itself relied on a humoral medical diagnostic system, which
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: is based in the signatures. So if you go and
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: you study Chinese diagnosis, Chinese medical sort of correspondence theory,
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: you will then be able to go back and apply
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: this stuff to magic. You'll have the system. Takes a
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: lot of time, but it's there. And so like this
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: is just an example. It's one of the ways I
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: kind of accidental.
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: I didn't know. I didn't know this was going to
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: be the case, you know, but in one of the.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Ways I kind of accidentally found that, like you, you
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: have to bridge these hemispheric cultures.
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: That's the only way you can get the whole thing.
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: I like what you just said about I guess numbers. God,
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: God's I don't I might self. It's kind of like
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess maybe it's a little risk
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: not risky but controversial to come out and say, I myself,
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: I really don't believe all those things are like real,
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: like I do think they're a little bit different than
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: they than people look at.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: That's just my opinion.
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I've even gone into uh, you know, real
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: quick and you're just weird question, And then I think,
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: my boy, the branch over here has something he wants
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: to ask you, only because you kind of meant we're
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: kind of getting onto it now about the gods that
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: maybe being real in that sense, and uh, and looking
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: at being I guess a polymath looking at some other
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: things that like Robert Flood has done or other people,
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: you start seeing the brain in the eyeball popping up.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: Do you every think that any of that stuff is
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: there any symbolism or cultism or whatever it might actually
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: be like pointing at that type of stuff as well.
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: Well, the thing is.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: This also can sort of reduce down to again Platonic philosophy,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: the relationship to cite and the mind in the Platonic,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: in the in the the Platonic and Neoplatonic, and therefore
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: another system that was influenced by Greek words. A lot
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: of people nowadays we want to sort of reinvest the
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Egyptian culture with its own sort of spiritual tradition that
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: we understand. So we say, oh, the Hermitica is Egyptian,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: but the Hermitica is Hellenistic. It uses it, it is completely,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: It uses Greek philosophical term, does not use Egyptian philosophical terms.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Logoss key, methampsychosis. All of these ideas come out.
• 56:50
  Speaker 6: Of that tradition.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: But the key there is in book six and seven
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: of the Republic when Plato'scrates describes the allegory of the
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: cave right, which is the paradigm of all Western initiation,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: moving from darkness to light, and then he says, why
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: the sun? Why is the sun your image of God?
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: He says, because the sun is to cite what God
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: is to the mind and knowledge. So there is a
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: sun behind the sun that illuminates in here. It doesn't
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: happen anywhere else. It illuminates in here, but the Sun
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: itself as an emissary what we would call the you know,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: the body in Platonism in Theorgy, we would call the
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: sun ilios. We would call that the body of the
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: subluminary demiurge, and the purpose it serves is to give
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: us a sort of express analogically the principle of illumination,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: so that we it gives us sight and it gives
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: us knowledge. Right, you can't know something if you can't
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: discern its characteristics, and we can't do that in the dark.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: So there's that relation that automatically comes to to my
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: mind when you bring that up, because well, we know
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Robert Flood would have been very familiar with with these traditions.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: But also you know, that's that's kind of the that's
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: kind of what I'm steeped in, So that's stuff obviously
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: that that platonic hermetic sort of filter is what I'm
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: going to be looking through everything at.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: I even think even in the Enneads, I think they
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: had a thing on site, So yeah, they're even like
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: kind of like getting about like the whole like relationship
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: between like I guess, sight and what's in between even
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: like what's in between here and the table I'm looking at, Like, yeah, Well,
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: and the ancient study of.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Light was called optics because the Greeks there were in
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: terms of their their sort of physiological philosop of either
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: medical philosophy or philosophy anatomy, it was.
• 59:03
  Speaker 9: They were.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Really of two frames of mind. You saw things because
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: light entered your eyes, or there's this other really cool thing.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: You saw things because light was exiting your eyes and whatever.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Those beams concentrated on broad knowledge. I mean, that's kind
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: of cool idea to think about walking around with laser
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: beams firing out of your eyes. But but so so yeah,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: this idea of light, illumination and sight are very very intertwined.
• 59:36
  Speaker 6: I mean even in modern even in modern biological.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: Sciences, it's just you know, it's a little it's a
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: little less focused on that relationship and it's more focused on.
• 59:48
  Speaker 6: Anatomy itself. I would say nowadays.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: All right, thank you very much. I appreciate that answer.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: That was great.
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: It's probably the most I got out of anybody I've
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: asked that. Normally nobody weird some people out, so I
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: don't think they'll come back on. Actually there's one or
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: two people I did that too.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: I was like, sorry, I mean, these are these are
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: awesome prompts. You guys ask great questions and and and
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: and and give great comments.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Thanks the branch.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: I think I saw you in chat. You were looking
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: to ask a question and I don't want to leave
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: you out, so you jumped in late.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: What's going on?
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 9: Hey, guys, it's a pleasure to be here. It's nice
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 9: to meet you. I likewise thanks for hosting me. Some
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 9: of the things you discussed kind of jumped out at me,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 9: so I wanted to mention, Oh, first of all, Nick,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 9: what the polymath thing? They reminded me of how the
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 9: Mason is instructed to learn the liberal sciences. So when
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 9: you so, when Mike was talking about the classes he
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 9: was taking, I was thinking, oh, well that's you know,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 9: what you're supposed to do as a Mason, right, is.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: To shape your mind. And but what is the purpose
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: of that?
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 9: So I think it might be partly so that you
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 9: can relate the correspondences appropriately and or teach perhaps. But anyhow,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 9: so you mentioned you were a carpenter, speculative Mason at
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 9: the very least, and the magician. So I was curious
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 9: you might be able to kind of answer a question
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 9: I've asked other people before, because you did mention the
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 9: body of Christ being like the sun.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: Right, so where they gather is the church?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 9: So I've always found it kind of strange. Why did
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 9: the church change the way it did. From your opinion
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 9: as a carpenter, maybe you have some insights because the
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 9: temple door was supposed to face east right, and so
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 9: with this relationship to the sun and the body of Christ.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 9: You know, I'm starting to wonder are we losing things
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 9: like this, the little details in our communal ritual practices,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 9: because well, it's more convenient just to put it on
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 9: the strip mall location, So we're not really pay attention
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 9: to the actual blueprints that were provided to us in Litviticus,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 9: for instance. So as a carpenter, maybe you can answer
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 9: that question, because you know how important blueprints are.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: That's the mind of God, right.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well, well that's the thing.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought up the several Liberal arts of
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: the fellow Craft's degree. It's actually how I got interested
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: in Jamie's work. He did a master work called Approaching
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: the Middle Chamber that just totally floored me. And he
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: goes through for the fellow Craft because a lot of
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: times it's this midpoint in your Masonic journey and you're
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: just like, Okay, get me through. I want the master Mason,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: and like, also, really, how you're going to learn the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: seven Liberal Arts? But They're really important because when you
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: begin to understand them, and then at the same time
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: as I'm learning them, right, I'm practicing carpentry, I'm I'm
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: apprenticing under a master carpenter, and you begin to see
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: that it's like we have this idea of like sacred
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: geometry nowadays where we're sort of like reinvesting geometry with
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: a kind of this this almost like quasi sci fi
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: overlay and like making it like this really really sort
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: of abstracted, strange thing that is is I don't know,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: it's part.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 6: Of the spiritual esthetic.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: And we have to do that because the geometry was
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: was made, you know, post it started with euclid but
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: after when we discovered non Euclidean geometry, we went completely
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: hard science with this stuff. And what studying the Liberal
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: arts shows you, right, because they're derived ultimately from Plato's Republic.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: He gives these seven sciences that the that the philosopher
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: king must be educated in Aristotle kind of bears them out.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: And then you get.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: These official particularly in the Scholastic era that we were
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: talking about earlier with Thomas Aquinas, and this is the
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: way that they learned things and what was passed down
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: from that philosophical tradition. That metaphysical tradition was the theology
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: of number, right, the theology of arithmetic, the theology the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: metaphysic of geometry, the metaphysic of music and harmony. And
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: it was inherent. It was completely inherent. So if you
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: were to study, particularly as a modern person, the seven
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Liberal arts the way that they were traditionally taught, you
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: would essentially the entire time be discussing the way that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: God creates the universe. This is very important to the
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: master mason. And not only that, because it's constantly focused
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: on a metaphysic, there is no point.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 6: So there's this really great guys h third third century.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Mathematician Neil Pythagorea named Theon of Smyrna, and he wrote
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: this really really cool short treatise but dense, called mathematics
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: useful for understanding Plato and the big differentiation you see
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: in this book. In the way that he wrote, he says, Okay,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: here's your arithmetical theorem, here's your geometrical theorems, here's your
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: harmonic theorems. Right, But before he launches into all this
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: this hard science, hard math jargon, he says, beginning at one,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: beginning with unity, beginning with unity. And what he's doing
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: there is he's emphasizing the priority of God. He's emphasizing
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: the priority of the absolutely doesn't venture into any discussion
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: of mathematics without first invoking God. What do we say
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: in masonry, You know, no man should enter into any
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: greater or important undertaking without first invoking the blessings of Deity.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: So always bringing that back to the table. And I
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: think that this understanding in general of the theological and
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: metaphysical nature which is inherent to everything we do. Losing
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: that we have sacrificed our understanding of any of our traditions,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: whether that's a lot of times occult, whether that's Christian,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. We don't we have inherited things that
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: we don't understand how to use because we've basically taken
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: the knowledge of that mechanic out of our lexicon, out
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: of our brains.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 6: We don't think like that, We don't understand that. We
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: don't know what they thought.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Why because when we read what they wrote, we're constantly
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: trying to filter it through our modern lens, you know,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: which that will just screw everything up. You'll know, ever
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: understand what they're talking about if you keep trying to
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: stick it through what you know. So the key is
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: then to go back. And it's a tremendous undertaking, and
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: I will do it for you, but but the key
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: is to go back and to learn exactly what they learned,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: you know, learn it. Don't sit there and try and say, oh, well,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe they meant this and what if it?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: Shut up?
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 6: Learn what they learned.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: That's it, Okay, Then you can then once you've assimilated
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: that information and you've seen the way that their minds thought,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: the way that and then you've you've you've affected a
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: restitution of the ancient worldview, of the holistic worldview that
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: we're all trying to get our hands on reenchant our worlds.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 6: Right, I mean, it was, it's right there.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: But you've got to shut down and shut off this
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: part of your brain that wants to, you know, reduce
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: everything and make it fit one to one square peg
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: square hole into what you understand, because it's not going
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: to happen.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 6: You need to be re educated.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: So that's I mean, I don't know how that ties
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: into I know how it ties into carpentry, because like
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know why, but I can tell you definitively
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: ninety degree angle is the strongest one and that you
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: can use.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 6: I don't know why, but that's a law.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: That's a law that exists regardless if there are ever
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: any ninety degree angles ever anywhere. That's a law that
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: exists independent of its material expressions. So in that way,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: I understand it was really cool to go through carpentry
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: and this time of liberal.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 6: Arts at the same time.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: But in terms of Christianity, I think that's a big
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: part of it, you know, I really think it's a
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: big part of it. We don't really understand any of
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: this stuff, and we're trying to we're trying to understand
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: esoteric with our exoteric minds.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 6: Yes, that's not gonna happen.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: That's well said. I like that branch. Did you did
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: you want to ask anything else? Was they could? Well?
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 9: Yeah, maybe, and thank you so much.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 9: I guess I would add to it a little bit
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 9: because he's familiar with how a lodge looks, and so
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 9: I've kind of always felt like lodges look more like
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 9: what a church should look like, kind of for these reasons,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 9: because they kind of preserve some of those Old Testament things.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 9: So just by going and attending lodge and watching how
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 9: you know the officers walk and ambulate and you know,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 9: never go between the worshipful Master and the altar. You know,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 9: there's a lot of different things you can observe and
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 9: kind of glean over time, and you don't get that
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 9: in church today because they've kind of sanitized everything and.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: Just did it's the death of detail.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 9: So I was just curious if he had any particular
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 9: insights maybe like does he ever go to church or
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 9: if he has, because you mentioned like attending Greek Orthodox
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 9: I think before, which I have as well in the past,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 9: and there are some insights to be gathered there because
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 9: like they still have the Econostosis, for instance, which is
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 9: kind of like the holy Holy Yeah.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah, those little those little saloon doors.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 9: Yeah. So yeah, just kind of of the opinion, like
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 9: do you think that maybe in the future we're gonna
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 9: because you know, think about it, magically, what the church
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 9: slash temple is constructed of was actually prescribed, you know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 9: and so we've replaced it with you know, discount drywall
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 9: from the whatever and so on and so forth. So
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 9: I think magically we've kind of insulated ourselves from having
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 9: like an authentic religious type experience or a static experience maybe,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 9: And so I think that's something that some of the
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 9: mysteries of the old days we're trying to preserve through
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 9: their practices, and the Masons kind of have maybe, even
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 9: if it's kind of become mundane. I think they were
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 9: trying to do that in their own way as well.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 9: So I was just curious, you think we'll have like
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 9: a revival of maybe a return to amples and churches
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 9: looking at how they maybe should or having some type
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 9: of morph of a focus on these structures.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: So I guess that would just be kind of a
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: follow up.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I would say from the practical perspective,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: there are not many people who are able to build.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: We don't use the same materials anymore. To your point,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: we used to use stone, marble, granite, et cetera. It's
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: a totally different way of working with material We use
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: wood now and various you know, composites, synthetics and things
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: like this.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 6: By the way, no.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: Matter what anybody tells you, there is no such thing
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: as green building. It's all very harmful. I don't care
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: what anybody tells you there's no such thing as green building,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: but the understanding of things like archways and the ornamentation, right,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: think of how ornate even.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 6: Up until you know, early like the first quarter.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: Of the twentieth century, you know, in nineteen twenty five
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: something like that. You know, we were surrounded in beauty. Nowadays,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: you know, we have a very square, you know, modular
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: kind of minimalist aesthetic. It robs our brain of being
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: able to see what has been referred to as you know, archete.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: Texture is frozen music, music is liquid architecture. So it's
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: we don't really have that anymore, you know, we don't
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: We don't have the beauty. And so I don't know,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: right because even in ancient Egypt, the intricacy and the proportionality,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: we don't think like that anymore. We can't, you know,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: And so I don't know that.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 6: It'll return to to that.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: But my question is is how important really isn't if
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: if something else happens, which is what we're seeing. We're
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: seeing a resurgence in in spiritual outreach. We're seeing the
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: first time in a long time, we're seeing uh pagan
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: temples being built in Greece. You know, the Greek government
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: was given a little bit of a hard time. I
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: think I don't really know the particulars of the whole story,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: but uh, you know, there's this resurgence. They're building these
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, these Grecian style temples and and putting
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: on ceremonial uh in there. And on the other hand,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: you've got something like the edifice of Christianity, which is dwindling.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: It's a good thing, and Ratzinger said this, the church
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: will have to it's become such a monstrosity, it's become
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: such a such such a caricature, a dark twin that
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: it has no choice but to go through the alchemical fire,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: which will reduce it down to its most essential components.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 6: That means we might go back to house churches. That's
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 6: that's the kind I serve it, right.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: I have.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: I have an ordination, a clerical ordination, and a pre
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: Niceen church, meaning a church that practices to the best
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: of our ability Christianity the way it was before the
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Council of Nicea. Okay so, and and it's small groups
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: of people meeting and having the sacramental, theurgic, alchemical eucharists.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: Because that's the Eucharist, is all those things. It's theurgic
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: and it's al chemical. Okay, So this is what has
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: to happen before we start understanding, you know.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 6: How to And the same thing's happened in Masonry.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: I am so lucky that my lodge gets to meet
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: at you know, eighty Broadway, the Masonic Temple in Ashville.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 6: It's gorgeous. But I've been all over this.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Country in the last three years to talk to brother Masons,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: and they have had to divest themselves of the financial
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: burden of their beautiful, beautiful building, the meeting in the
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: basements of vfw haws.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 6: So that's happening too.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: The Masonic numbers are dwindling, the Christian numbers are dwindling.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: But getting back to a core that I think is
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: really important, sincere earnest people that are there really looking
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: for the heart of what it is, I think that's
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: probably the most important. No matter what your spiritual path is,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: get back down to the elements, get back down to
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: the foundations, and that should be the fire that we
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: crowd around warm ourselves in this you know, spiritually arid
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: and cold terrain of the twenty first century.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 9: And may I please follow up, but once more, since
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 9: his vocation was a trade skill, I think part of
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 9: what we're seeing is because there are fewer people going
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 9: into trades, we're also losing the ability to create these.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: Things over time.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 9: Right, So it kind of reminds me of like the
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 9: fourth Turning kind of principle, is like maybe we'll have
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 9: a renaissance of some sort of occur. But I was
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 9: going to ask the question itself, however, was how important
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 9: you think labor is for somebody having a sense of
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 9: purpose from a cabalistic perspective. Matt has made the comment before,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 9: like you can find kabbala and everything, you know, whether
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 9: it be tennis, carpentry or whatever. As long as you're
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 9: into it deep, you know you're going to reveal things.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 9: And so I was just curious, if we move into
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 9: this future of like a universal basic income and things
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 9: like that, do you think we're going to see a
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 9: further degradation of spirituality or couple kind of be forced
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 9: into these small house churches, right, And that kind of
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 9: reminds me of the days when they met underground, you know,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 9: And I can't remember what those were called the mith
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 9: Raim's or whatever.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you see that in Egypt too, they
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: use particularly the mortuary temple of had chepstud has early
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: Christian crosses on it because that's where they would have
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: to go out to the Valley of the Kings, away
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: from civilization, under cover of darkness and these ruins in
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: order to practice mass. And so yeah, there's really cool,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: these these little hideaways, in these secret places. Is in
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: the markers they left, they are still there, you know,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: after like, yeah, fifteen hundred years.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 6: But yeah, I mean, I don't really know. I do
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 6: think that.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: Well, you asked, what how important is labor? Well, I
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: say this from a cabalistic perspective. We are in malkout
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: of Asaiah or Asia. Okay, Asia, the fourth or fifth
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: lowest world is that it's literal translation is the world
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: of making.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 6: This is what is meant in the Biblical Genesis. When
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: by the sweat of your brow will you eat bread?
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 6: You know, now is the time of toil. That's you
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 6: must labor. You must labor here.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying everybody has to go out and
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: become a construction worker, but you have to embrace a
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: life of physicality because it's labor. Just especially nowaday to
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: not be very unhealthy physically. That's a kind of labor
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: to keep yourself, keep your body functioning optimally.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 6: In twenty twenty five in America, so you know, especially now,
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 6: a lot of us work online, sitting for hours.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: It's that's completely new to me. I've only ever worked
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: as a humph. I've done manual labor my whole life,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: you know, And now all of a sudden, I'm sitting
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: here eight hours a day writing and I'm like, I
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: need to get out of this chair.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 6: These things are important.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: It sounds crazy, but I mean especially cabitalistically, and you
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: want to you know, use that you know, Jewish or
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: Judeo Christian mythology from Genesis and the expulsion from the
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: Garden was really saying, look, you have chosen. You have
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: chosen to enter into a world that requires toil. It's
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: not punishment, but it's you have chosen to enter into
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: a place that requires toil. So so yeah, I think
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: labor is important. I think trades are important. Well, a
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: lot of people don't understand. They think a carpentry is
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: kind of like I think carpentry gets conflated with with
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: general labor. You know, people that are like sweeping floors
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: and Karen wheelbarrows. That's what you got to do when
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: you start out. It's part of the apprenticeship.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: You do the grunt work.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: But carpentry is so incredibly intellectual. You are working with
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: precision mathematics and then somehow you've got to get this
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: out of the material. You've got to got to make
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: no piece of no, no two by four straight, you know,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: but you've got to figure this out. You know, you're
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: fighting with the materials and getting them into mathematical geometric
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: shapes that a don't make you lose a lot of money,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: because when you screw up in carpentry, you lost mone
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: and B that the house or building doesn't fall fall
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: in on everybody, and then you've got a real problem
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: on your hands. Okay, so so it's not even just
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: the labor, but it's like the I think we are.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: Our modern civilization, especially the younger people, can really benefit from,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: you know, extracting the real time value of uh this
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: mind body access and the interplay the intellect, and then
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: taking what you've learned, taking that skill and applying it
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: in real life.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 6: It will just help you be a I think a
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 6: more effective person.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: That was great. Does anybody wanted to ask anything or
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: set the wrap it up?
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 5: I asked a question like your your treasure trove of
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 5: wonderful was to the massay, and I wanted to put
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 5: or give you some prompts of of the things that
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 5: you've been touching on and maybe if you could put
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 5: them together. Partly because of my obsession with the topics
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 5: you mentioned the tetractus, I wonder if and sacred geometry.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: I wonder if you might.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 5: Be able to share with us how the tetragrammaton is
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 5: related to the tetractus, and at least in depiction of it,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 5: and and and and so forth. I just wonder if
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 5: you could build on the tetractics and the relationship to
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 5: the Word of God another another thing you brought up.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, the Word of God, very very good. Right,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: So that's the ineffable name of God, is the Tetragrammaton.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: It's also Greek that word tetra for grammaton, you know letters.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: So you've got the tetractys. Uh, try and do my
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: best here for somebody that that maybe has never heard
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: or seen it before. The tetractice is in a example
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: of what I called before a triangular number. Okay, why
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: because when you put it's basically any time you add
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: in numerical sequence. If you add two to one, you
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: get a triangular number, right, because it's one two. You
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: add three to two to that sequence, you get a
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: triangular number. Get you add four, you get a triangular number.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: So one plus two plus three plus four arranged in
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: a triangle, those little counting pebbles gives us tetractys, which is,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: it gives us ten one plus two plus three plus
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: four those add to ten. The Pythagoreans who devised the
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: system said, when you have ten, you have everything that
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: is right, because ten is one on a higher arc.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: And there's I'm giving a course right now called musical
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: universalis music as magic, and we're you know, it's a
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: huge part of it. Is exactly what I'm talking about now,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: this geometric and arithmetical overlay that allows us to use
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: harmony and sympathy at magic. But uh so we can
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: get into some hairy territory. I'm going to forego that
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: because I don't want to beat anybody over the head
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: with this stuff. But the ten therefore was the attractees
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: was therefore their conception of the sub totality of of
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: the essential universal forces. Same thing with the spear oft
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: on the tree of life ten right, and that's the
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: whole cosmos. And it just refracts or fractalizes. Uh. Now,
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: this figure, and here's something for the Masons, was reduced
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: in Plato's Timaus to a series of numbers integers, and
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: they called this Plato's lambda. And along the right side right,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: so it's essentially you would have the tatrackt these as
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: a full triangle, but the lambda is just extracting the
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: apex and two sides of that triangle and not the base.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 6: So it looks like a Masonic compass. It looks like compasses. Okay.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: And at the top he placed he Plato gives us
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: a series of really random they seem random numbers one, two, three, four, eight, nine,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: twenty seven.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 6: And what he's doing there is.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: He's there are two branches that start right theannas Smirtna says,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: beginning with unity, beginning with one at the top. You
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: move down the right and you have the odd numbers
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: right three nine twenty seven. Powers you move down the
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: left side, you get the even numbers two, four, eight,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: So when you arrange the tetragrammaton on this, you essentially
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: have the yode right because we leave we read Hebrew
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: right to left, you have the yode moving down the
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: side of uh, the odd numbers which are thought to
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: be masculine or positive. Now yode uh is if you
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: want to talk about it in a hermetic cabalistic context,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: is it represents the root of the powers of fire.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 6: And then it builds, It builds out from that yode
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 6: yode hey yodhey vob yodhey vav hey.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: And this is the sequence of generation, and it all
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: goes back to this really interesting thing.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 6: We call it.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: We call it the tetragrammaton right, yes, thank you for
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: putting this up. We call it the tetragrammaton four lettered name.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: There are only three letters in that name.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 6: One of them repeats, there are only three letters, and
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 6: what did we say happens in the beginning? The one
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 6: is somehow three that hey.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: Final, This is the window through which the eye peers
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: out and perceives universe. It is a a new it's
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: you could even picture yodey vav he kind of like
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: walking through this window. This this this sort of thing.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: It's it's.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: The inevitable sort of fourth that gives birth to the
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: new fractal permutation.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: And this is exactly what the atractice and this cycle
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: of generation here, this arrangement of the words, this is
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: what is trying to u to show you. But the
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: thing is you you really need to understand what this
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: meant to the to the Pythagoreans and neo Pythagoreans and
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: the Platonists before you can understand everything else.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 6: And then so you'd get.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: One, three, nine, twenty seven, one, two, four and eight, right,
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: which is just it's a sequence of adding numbers to
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: other numbers. Adding one to one, you get two, adding
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: one to two you get three. Then you go two
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: to the power of itself, three to the power of two,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: three to the power of itself, two to the power
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: of three, squaring and cubing, and essentially, as the lambda,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: it shows how God moves from a point to align
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: to a surface. Right, that's why we call it a
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: square number creates a square right. And when you've got
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: that little three above it, that exponent three that is cubing.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: So we've gone from point to line to surface to
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: solid object. Effectively, the lambda and its expression as the
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: tractus and.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 6: The four elements of the name are showing.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: How the divine literally manifests, penetrates into three dimensional space and.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 6: Becomes something.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if that really answers your question,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: but I've just I've been drowning in this stuff until
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: I've learned how to swim in it. Uh So.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 5: That was that was great. Thank you for sharing that.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 5: That that brought it all together. The word the tetragrammaton,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 5: the tech Tractus and Sacred Gem.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because the word is logos, right order, and that's
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: exactly what the tetractus is trying to show.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 6: Order. It's how God orders the cosmos so that he
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 6: can come into existence.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 5: It also reminds me of maybe you might be familiar
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 5: with this. I've heard there's the Masonic equation or idea
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 5: where they say that the four is equal to ten.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, that's why it's called the tech tractys. Right,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: tetra is four in Greek, but there's but there's ten dots,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: but there's four lines. It's because again, four is the
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: completion of everything, and because one plus two plus three
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: plus four equals ten.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 6: And when if you have ten.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 9: You have everything, dopett May I ask that question real quick?
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: Go for a branch please?
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 9: Could this tet tracks also be a tool to look
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 9: at when looking at the minor pip cards because they're
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 9: all in tens of each suit's a ten, right, so
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 9: is there anything there to glean?
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah? I would absolutely arrange them, because again.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: We've got the tetractees is effectively representing the tree of
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: life in a triangular Format's a precursor to the to
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: the cabalistic tree of life. Okay, without the paths, it's
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: but the thing is it's it's also drawn with paths,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: but they're angles.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 6: But we won't get into that.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: So what you do in the.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: Hermetic kabala is you take the pip cards and you
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: put them by number into the sphere out It would
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: be the same thing, right, All the aces go to Ketter,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: all the two's go to Hawkma, all the threes go
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: to Bena, all the fours go to has said that,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: so on and so forth, Geble different all the way
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: down to ten and malcout. Okay, so you could absolutely
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: do that with the te tractors and the tattractice is
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: essentially the biggest thing that I want to impress on
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: people is that it's it's if you needed just a keyword,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: keywords for it's a formula of generation. That's how everything
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: is created.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah. One thing I can add, maybe, Joshua, is if
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 8: you look into the Tarot of Bohemians from Papus, he
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 8: goes into like connecting the Tarrat with the judev of hey,
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 8: like the tetragrammaton. And then if you know already that
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 8: it's basically the same as the tractus, and just just
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 8: make the associations yourself. I'd also want to ask something
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 8: to Ike. I don't know if you ever went about
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 8: the works of the Archeometer from Saint Eve's.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: I have the book here.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 6: It's he basically worked.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 8: With Purpose as well, who founded like Martanism and so
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 8: on and on, and I found it very intriguing, very
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 8: nice how it connects to what we were talking here,
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 8: because the Archeometer goes about like it was basically saying
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 8: Eve's idea of connecting all the like past mythologies, all
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 8: the past you know, sciences and connecting everything in one,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 8: which like you mentioned, was already in the eighteen hundreds.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 6: But they really they they knew the Kabbala.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 8: So like he'll talk about Kabbala, but probably not the
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 8: Kabbala that we know, because the Kabbala as we think,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 8: like tree of life with colors and whatever, the hermetic
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 8: one when just came after it, right, So, but he
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 8: gives a lot of nice examples, like we were talking
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 8: about how you can construct things with angles, and then
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 8: how maybe that angle will be connected to the same
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 8: essence of a color or of a like a sound
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 8: or something like. That's what the the thing shows here,
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 8: like you connect let's say maybe one of the numbers
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 8: is with one of the colors and one sound and
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 8: one astrology sign and whatever. So but the only problem
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 8: with I mean, now we kind of have yeah, that's brands. Now,
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 8: now we kind of have an English translation I've found
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 8: or Solar found one of our lodge friends. It's not
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 8: really the best, but I don't know if you ever
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 8: encountered it before, which I think you should give it.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 8: At least a skin through would be an interesting thing.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I haven't looked at that.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: I'm definitely aware of sez Or's I.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna, yeah, emphasize your point there that the the
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 6: sort of.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: Martinist and especially the French way of utilizing the cabala
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: is to this day very different. You'll meet people that
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: come out of a French system, uh, never worked any
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: anything Golden Dawn derivative, and they have almost they have
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: very different attributions to the tarot cards.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 6: But yeah, I absolutely I will check that out. I
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 6: got to put it on the queue. Thank you very much.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: Nice.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 8: I think I'll send you on Instagram.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you. But does anybody have any questions about
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 6: the Golden Dawn?
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 9: Oh?
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, I was gonna probably leave I
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 4: was probably just gonna leave that out because it's already
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 4: been an hour and a half and so yea, yeah, no, no,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: you're good on that, dude. No, maybe I'll have you
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 4: back on some other time to talk about that, but yeah,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: we'll just I think this conversation was better not actually getting.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: Into that topic. So good. Awesome, Yeah, yeah, this was great. Yeah.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 4: Was there anything else, Gin or anybody else here have
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 4: anything you wanted to ask before we wrap it up? Well?
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: I do have one, of course.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 7: So you touched on something really interesting that we've kind
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 7: of played with as a speculative idea in the Gray Lodge,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 7: like the there's five of us, but there's three of
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 7: us represented on the panel right now. But of the
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 7: sort of aonic shift in religion, and so this is
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 7: obviously a fall up to mass question, like sort of
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 7: the decentralization, deinstitutionalization into these smaller networks, into these smaller nodes,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 7: you could even say, And I want your opinion on
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 7: how that will also perhaps look in contemporary American magic
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 7: or maybe even speculative in the near future of American magic,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 7: because you have a lot of people who many of
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 7: whom or all of whom perhaps you've spoken with, talking
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 7: kind of about like not necessarily that they're abandoning their
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 7: system or their lodge or their you know, traditional sort
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 7: of frameworks, but they are kind of going away from
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 7: the dogmatic, as you said, the klipas of the institutions.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 7: They are kind of crumbling, They are destabilized, and they
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 7: are not carrying forward into the future perhaps even the
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 7: original or even the preserved meanings. So I just want
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 7: to your appraisal of, like where do you think modern
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 7: American magic is going to go? Do you see it
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 7: being contained in a particular religious or traditional framework, or
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 7: do you see something like new arising perhaps.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 6: Well you know, what usually takes place is a.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: Some form of synthesis between the push pull of diametric opposition.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: So where we find that in our communities, particularly regarding
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: magic and occultism, that's going to define the boundaries the
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: limit of the system, this opposition, and then somewhere in
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: the middle they're going to meet and there'll be many
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: manifestations of that.
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 6: Magic in particular, it goes through these growth spurts, and
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 6: for better or for worse, say, if.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: You look at it historically, at least since the eighteen hundreds,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: really happens right before a major world event that is.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 6: Not necessarily fun.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: Uh, but magic will kind of come to the surface
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: because it's important, right, It's it's it's it's a way
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: of of of healing the collective.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 6: It's an opportunity to heal the collective. It's not a
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 6: way to heal.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: The collect because I feel like it's like anything else,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: it's up to the individual.
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 6: How are you going to use this?
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: Then that will determine whether or not it heals or hinders.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: But I would say there is a de institutionalization. But
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: I see also in magic a thirst and a hunger
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: for structure, and so a lot of people want to
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of I don't know. It seems like
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: they almost want to be like, they want to engage
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: in a form of like esso territorism. Come into the
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 2: Golden dawn for a little.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 6: While, see what that's all about.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: Structure sounds really nice, that might help. Then the thing
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: is you get there and you're looking for this like
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: confirmation bias. Instead of saying, oh, maybe this will change me,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: you're saying, oh, maybe I don't know, maybe more intellectually
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: fat or something. And it's can be more information. Again,
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: you can't think your way into this stuff. But there
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: are a lot of people that are craving that structure,
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: whether or not they can handle it. It's a different
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: story we have as modern people. Look at us now,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: we're you know, a bunch of talking heads. On one hand,
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: it's great that the internet can bring us together, and
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: on the other hand, there's a generation of people coming
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: into this world that are completely abstracted from traditional community
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: and social dynamics.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 6: Okay, so people have a.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: Really hard time dealing with the fact that there are
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: other people here, you know, like in my physical space.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: So we need to work on that because I don't
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: I Magic will collapse if it becomes a bunch of
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: solo practitioners that are just communicating via zoom, because the
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: same thing, all the same eclecticism that ultimately never real
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: never it goes to the fur, to the ends, to
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: the degree it goes to its furthest possible extreme, and
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: then completely dissipates rather than sort of crowding around. And
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: I'm talking, you know, on a demographic level, not necessarily,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not speaking about individuals. I know for certain that's
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: going to happen, but I was saying a demographic level,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: populations level. I see magic kind of turning into something
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: completely different.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 6: And this A lot of this has to do with.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, academia's sudden interest in what we do,
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: which is not a bad thing, right. I have a
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: lot of friends that are that are academics. I organized
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: an academic conference in Egypt. But I would say that
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: that somehow is going to in packed that and the
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: sort of socially distant interactions is going to impact that.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: I do see people yearning for that group dynamic, but
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: I do also find that when they get there, a
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: lot of them, especially if they're younger, can't handle it.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: They can't like the gold You come into the golden
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: dawn and it is not a democracy. It's a hierarchy. Okay,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: there are three chiefs in every temple and you have
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: to do what they say.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 6: Now, we can't tell you to what diet to go
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 6: on or who to hang out with, but it's still
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 6: in that dynamic. There is a clear hierarchy.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 2: People don't like hierarchy anymore because they're insecure to the
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: point where that makes them feel intimidated or uncomfortable. Whereas
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: in previous relationships or previous iterations of communal interaction, it
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: was nice to find a little spot where you fed in,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: fit in. This is where my job is, and I'll
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: work my way up. People don't want to do that
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: anymore to a large degree.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 6: So that's the trouble that we're going to have.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: They want it, but when the rubber hits the road,
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable, and so they decide, I'm going to go
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: and do something else, and then normally they'll don't get
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: me wrong, some people unfortunately suffer abuse at the hands
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: of others. But I would say, certainly, while that is
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 2: an issue, you know it can happen anywhere, and I
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: think that it's not necessarily the rule.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 6: I think it's the exception. But you.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: You hear from a lot of those people who get burned.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: You know, they go on campaigns where they're making sure
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: everybody knows what happened, and so.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 6: I try to be a voice. It's look at golden
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 6: do not perfect? Why because it's made of.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: People and everything people do, everything people make. There's a religion,
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 2: if it's a company, if it's going to be indelibly
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: imprinted with our highest potentialities and our lows. Okay, there's
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: no escaping that. Welcome to duality. So welcome to the realm.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: So so you know what we'll see.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 6: It's an interesting question. You know, I'm not sure I
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 6: have an answer.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 7: I think that's the perfect sort of way to respond
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 7: to that is to just say, yeah, it's in flux,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 7: let's see what happens and let's serve with it.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 9: Do you guys think that maybe that's what motivated the
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 9: kind of the some of the names that were mentioned
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 9: throughout Iambickolis or whatever, people like that. There's stories about
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 9: how some of these folks would travel to other lands
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 9: and so in that new system that they're now in
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 9: they were a big fish way back in Athens or whatever.
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 9: But they go to Egypt and now it's like, well,
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 9: now I'm a novice again, right, So do you think
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 9: that that's kind of part of the hermit journey perhaps,
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 9: is to seek out contemporaries or people that you can
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 9: have fellowship with or something like that.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: Is there an element of that there perhaps?
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: And I mean, don't underestimate the support system it can
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: give you. You know, when I was a kid, I
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: used to see things people in my hallway, you know,
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: probably in like third grade, this stuff started really happening,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: and I didn't like it. I hated it, so I
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: blocked it out. And then years later when I undergo
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: a gold initiation, lo and behold the doors are blown
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: off and all this stuff starts happening again.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 6: So, you know, I'm waking up in the middle of
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 6: the night.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: And there are people in my room, you know, the figures, entities, whatever,
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: with a visible appearance. I then go to like a
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: support group of between three to ten to twenty people
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: that all have different experiences, different backgrounds, and all have
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: a firm, rather firm footing in this stuff, and I
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: can use them as a sounding board.
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 6: Hey, should I go to a mental hospital? You know,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 6: like what what needs to be Am I losing my mind?
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: And then you'll have people kind of you know, because
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: the average person is going to might freak out to
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, you know, and might really my first
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: inclination was like I'm going crazy, but it was ultimately
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: through the support given to me by people in my
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: first Golden Dawn Temple. The whole temple, right like a
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: village really really talked me through that stuff. And now
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: it's to the point where you know, I can control
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: it instead of it really being a consistently jarring experience
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: for me. So I think support structures are are another
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: way of apprenticing yourself to a path because ultimately, like
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: it's not just about submission, it's to your point, it's
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: very much about remaining an eternal student.
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 6: But you should have I personally think you should have
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 6: many teachers.
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 8: Some would say at least one hundred and eight.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 6: I don't have that much time, or I mean it
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 6: depends who you're caught as a teacher.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 8: Right, if you go outside and you look at a
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 8: tree and okay, you learn something.
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, maybe I can rank up that number.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and this and in this world right, there
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: are so many teachers from beyond the grave, you know.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: Big one for me was Deonnfortune and uh, you know,
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: I visited her grave in Glastonbury probably about six years ago,
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, I kind of did it like, oh cool,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: I've been reading her books for years. I learned a
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: lot about it. And then I get there and I
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: just got so incredibly overwhelmed emotionally.
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 6: I was just bawling. I didn't even know why. It
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 6: was like despite myself, you know.
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: And and yeah, I realized probably afterward that like, this
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: person is a teacher to me.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 6: I never met him, you know, never met her.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 4: Well I could understand that. Yeah, I guess everybody jin
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 4: or mad or Ethan. You guys, good a breach too.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 4: We'll wrap it up then, yeah, sorry.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 3: Well thank you for having me on guys. Hell yeah, great,
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 3: hell yeah, no, that was awesome. Sorry. We never did
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 3: get to the Golden Door, but like I said, I'm
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 3: quite happy with the way the show went. Anyway. I
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 3: thought that was a good look.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 6: I say this a lot. I've been called many things
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 6: in my life, but never brief.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 3: So that's great. It's awesome stuff. Jin real quick, do
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: you want to remind everybody where they could find your stuff?
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: Sure? So I want to say thank you so much.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 7: I this was honestly like one of the reasons I
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 7: started podcasting was to have this conversation. And I've had
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 7: many milestones like Nick and I have done lots of
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 7: cool things, So thank you Nick. And also bringing and
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 7: obviously it's led to open the door to bring people
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 7: onto my show, so including Matt and Joshua and also
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 7: the group show. We do the Gray Lodge, Speculative Cabala,
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 7: speculative of colle Chakra, and speculative Narcissism every Friday night
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 7: live on X So thank you guys so much.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: Obviously, Joshua had the branch.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 7: I will apologize because he was late because of me,
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 7: So it was nothing to do with him or his punctuation.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 7: It was because I was late, So I apologize for that.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 7: But Joshua just had an episode drop on my show
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 7: on Claymore So the Kabbala of Claymore. We go through
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 7: the anime series and the manga series, so that's called
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 7: Faint Smile. I have an episode with Solar, our other
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 7: co host, and the Gray Lodge dropping either today or
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 7: tomorrow morning with Gregory Peters who wrote the new a
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 7: on Tantra and I have lots lots and lots coming
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 7: up with lots of interesting authors and so thank you
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 7: so much, and of course thank you Matt for being
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 7: our webmaster and building out our site and all the
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 7: hard work you do for the Great Lodge and keeping
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 7: our YouTube channel like and subscribe and if you want
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 7: to follow me at wokongribornwuk O and g Reborn on
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 7: Twitter and then the show at Threshold Saints and anywhere you.
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: Get your podcasts. So thank you guys, all the whole
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: panel and especially I of course thank you.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 3: Thank you Ja. I'm glad you made it today, sir
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 3: and Matt Moore. What is going on?
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 6: Man?
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 3: Let everybody know where they can find you a site
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: and everything, for sure.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 8: Yeah, thanks a lot. Cho is a very intriguing conversation.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 8: I perspond with a lot of stuff. You the way
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 8: you think and Swan so very good. Always nice to
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 8: have these type of things. And yeah, everyone can find
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 8: me at at Metmore nineteen. That's going to be on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch,
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 8: maybe some other place. There's also my website that's Cabala
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 8: dot com k A A B A L A h
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 8: dot com. A lot of stuff going on there. Just
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 8: made some updates this week is also just opening myself
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 8: more to reading because now it's much faster to do it.
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 6: And so if you are interested in that, just DM
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 6: me any of those.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 3: Thanks about me of course, thank you very much and Indigo, sir.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 5: Piece that was awesome, Mike, thank you so much for
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 5: sharing all your knowledge and wisdom. I really appreciated that
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 5: and everyone. I appreciate you guys so much. Easy to
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 5: find on all the social media, and I appreciate people
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 5: reaching out and communicating and articles dropping soon and writing frequently.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 5: So yeah, again, thanks so much.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 3: I thank you Ethan. I appreciate you making it again.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 3: It was early for you and the branch. What is
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 3: up sir?
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 9: Thank you for hosting Nick.
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: It's a great pleasure to meet you again.
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 9: Ike Jin did a great outro for me, so all
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 9: I could add to that is I did recently do
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 9: a blurb on Symbolic Studies soon to premiere video and
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 9: Stagitty areas Symbolism, so check him out on Twitter and
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 9: YouTube and does some really good work that's a wonderful
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 9: gathering of people.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate being a part of this.
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for the invitation, of course, thank
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: you for making it.
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 4: And finally, if you want to let everybody know where
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 4: they can find all your stuff again.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks so much guys for having me on.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: Truly, thank you for the work that you continue to
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: do and to give to our communities some valuable Thanks
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: everybody that tuned in for the live stream. If you
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: want to know anything more about me, go to Ike
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: Baker dot com I K E B A K E
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: R dot com Again, use the chat widget in the
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: bottom right corner. I've got a mailing list you can
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: sign up for there. We actually just went through the
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: Theology of Numbers. It's it's totally free. The emails are
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: digestible that go out every Thursday. I've got courses going
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: on every quarter. The next one coming up is Techniques
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: of Greco Egyptian Theorgy. It's going to be a distillation
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: of the work that I did in Egypt with that
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: group of practitioners. So I'll be teaching that via zoom
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: and you can reach out to me and sign up
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: for that. And yeah, check out my podcast, I've got
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: some solid guests. You want to learn more about the
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: Golden Dawn. I've got two episodes up there about the
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: history of the Golden Dawn, and I did an interview
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: with my greatly honored chiefs Chicken, Tabatha Sisera up there,
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: and you can hear about like you know them, with Israel,
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: Regorty and and Grady McMurtry and things like that.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 6: So go check that out, write to me whatever you like,
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 6: and I think that's it.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks guys, check out that episode myself. Yeah nice, Yeah,
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 4: that's pretty cool man. I again, thank you so much
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 4: for coming on it. Just really, I mean again, sorry
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 4: we didn't get into the Golden Down. I'm glad I
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 4: asked about your books at first, but honestly, the show
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 4: went better than I could have asked or really am
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 4: very proud to put the show out on my listeners.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 4: Hopefully we'll get you back on again in the future.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 4: But again, there was an awesome conversation, and I thank
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 4: you everybody who came and made it again. It was
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 4: a little earlier, different time zones for everybody here, but
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 4: we made it happen and I still think it's fucking wild.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 4: Have we both moved from New York to.
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, we should do
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: we should go to Pilot Mountain, Yoh yeah, yeah, it
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: was it the Yeah, I told you right, I think
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: I hit you up.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, have you been there? Because I
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 3: want to go there and record that shit and film
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 3: it and just check it out.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 4: So it's like two hours from me, I'll go, yeah, yeah,
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 4: we definitely all right, So definitely think we'll definitely talk
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 4: about that in the future.
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: But man, for sure for sure. But uh yeah, and
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 3: thank you everybody in the chat. I don't know if
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 3: I think there were some new faces in there.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it was from you maybe advertising
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 4: it on your end or some listeners, but there were
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 4: some people in there I don't think I've seen before.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: So I appreciate you jumping on whoever. It is awesome.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and uh again, that's why we go live.
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 4: I do appreciate the comments, regardless if they're good or
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 4: bad or different opinions. I do appreciate at least people
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 4: jumping in and trying to give their idea on the topic.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: Uh yeah. And that's the end of another one and
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 3: until the next one, everybody be well later