Latest / Off Topic / Off Topic: The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Systemic Issues in Healthcare, Importance of Kindess

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Off Topic: The Lindsay Clancy Trial, Systemic Issues in Healthcare, Importance of Kindess · Off Topic

• Samantha Potter: Okay. Hi everyone. There's three Jenny O'Mahony: Hey Samantha Potter: of us who Meagan: Hi. Samantha Potter: have decided that we're gonna start a podcast because we wanted you to be part of our group chat. And it felt really appropriate to have you join because we talk about everything and anything. And most of the time we are not on topic. So hence the name, off topic. Anyone wanna add in anything to that? Jenny O'Mahony: No, I would say your name though. Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: I'm Samantha. That's probably useful. Jenny O'Mahony: And I'm Jenny. I was about to say I'm Megan. Meagan: I'm Megan. I'm Megan. Samantha Potter: And we have a pretty Jenny O'Mahony: All right. Samantha Potter: robust group chat, so welcome. Jenny O'Mahony: if we were to describe the genre of this podcast, it would it would be genraless, right? Like there's no genre. Meagan: could go anywhere. Any topic. Jenny O'Mahony: It could, because we're just gonna Samantha Potter: I think you've just created a new word. Jenny O'Mahony: genreless? Meagan: Genre list. Samantha Potter: genreless and I quite like it. Jenny O'Mahony: I think it's more that we wanted the ability to have a different space to kind of over speak and not be tied to a whole bunch of research or prep and editing. So we decided to just kind of off the cuff it and we will never stay on topic because there there isn't one. so there's that. Samantha Potter: Even if there was one, we would not stay on Meagan: Even if there was one, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Yep. Follow us on Instagram if you want more information. I don't know. I do think though, because this all came up from discussing the absolutely devastating horror show that is the Lindsay Clancy trial, I think that is like a fair place to kind of spin to. I did see an online attorney describe it as a trial of humiliation and I was like, yeah, that that to me that tracks. Meagan: like humili humili I can't say that word of her or just of like the system or of Samantha Potter: I wanna say of the state. Meagan: of the of America of humans Jenny O'Mahony: So shh I mean all the above. In her the context of where she was saying it, she was saying humiliating, like Lindsay Clancy specifically, but also sort of kind of women, I guess. because of how the initial and I very op I could be wrong, because I am paraphrasing from a th third party who I haven't deeply vetted. So like this could be i this could be inaccurate. Please do not make any decisions or opinions based on what I'm saying. But Samantha Potter: Maybe that's like a Meagan: Like Samantha Potter: good a good Meagan: any yeah. Samantha Potter: asterisk just to say that like I don't what w what we say is is our Jenny O'Mahony: Ever? Literally ever. Meagan: We are not experts in anything. Yeah. Samantha Potter: our opinions. We are not experts in anything. We are not fact checking a thing. So Meagan: Yeah. We're not yeah, it's all our opinion. Jenny O'Mahony: We're we're not qualified to give any kind of advice, Samantha Potter: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: literally. But what she was saying is that because of how the she calls the attorney Shreddington, which I kinda like because he's like kind of annihilated some people in this cross Meagan: Mm. Yeah. Totally. Samantha Potter: Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: examination. But gosh, I should remember her name because I'm kinda quoting her. Samantha Potter: Does she call the other one Bows or something like that? Bo yeah. Bo and Co. I do. I found her too and I love Jenny O'Mahony: Yes, Bo Bo and Co. She d Meagan: we go. Samantha Potter: her. Jenny O'Mahony: I really like her, but now I can't remember her name. So we like if we think of her name, we need to give credit where credit's due. But Samantha Potter: Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: she was basically saying that the way that Reddington presented the case initially, they gave the option to not run it as a like so okay, to back up, the way that It came to trial. So we use the term grand jury here. I think they call Meagan: Mm-hmm. Jenny O'Mahony: it an indictment in their area. I don't know if that's like an American term or like whatever, but they basically Meagan: Uhhuh. Jenny O'Mahony: take the information from that they have and they bring it to a group, a grand jury of the general population that says whether the the case should go to trial or not. Right. So those people said, yes, this should go to trial. So The humiliation kind of started with that group of people saying, yes, this should go to trial. And do they know that it's gonna be televised? Do they know exactly how big it will be? I d I don't know. definitely not there's no way to know how widespread it was. Samantha Potter: There there's no way, yeah. Meagan: Yeah, there's no way to know that it was gonna do what it did. Jenny O'Mahony: But it didn't have to go to a trial. It could have been dealt with in the court system without it going to like a jury and whatnot is sort of what this lawyer was saying. So a decision was Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: made, and I know that is reflective of our legal system here, because I remember at one point hearing what about a grand jury and messaging my dad, who's a retired lawyer, because that's my source of information most of the time for stuff like that. And he was explained that term to me. So basically decision was made for it to go and become essentially at some level a more public case. But hi her lawyer also gave the option to essentially bifurcate the trial or the the the d duration of the trial. sorry bifurcation's like when something like a fork's in the road like you Samantha Potter: That's a word I'm gonna need you to define for me. Bifurcate. Meagan: Yeah, what does that mean? Splits? Okay. Jenny O'Mahony: split it right you make take one thing put it in two it bifurcates and by Latin yeah Samantha Potter: Buy fork eight. Fork by two. Yeah. Meagan: I like it. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: and basically saying like we will formally admit that she like guilt, which she has done in her civil case, by the way. She describes the event that happened, right? We all admit guilt Samantha Potter: Yeah. But that doesn't that doesn't mean anything in this case. The civil case. No. Yeah, it's totally separate. Mm hmm. Jenny O'Mahony: I don't think so. I think it's separate. That's my understanding, yeah. Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: But he they basically offered that up. hey, like we'll separate it, like you we can just like we can basically make this less big of a deal because we're admitting guilt. But that was denied. So now it's this whole th this what we've got. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: They also like paraded her Samantha Potter: What we've got now. Jenny O'Mahony: clothing that they cut off of her in the hospital around to sort of I think the point was to prove that she was put together and it was all premeditated 'cause she was wearing c clothes. I don't know. That to me that doesn't Meagan: women masking and faking it. Like don't yeah. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Well they're saying like she drove to a doctor's Jenny O'Mahony: It's also winter, like fucking Samantha Potter: appointment that Jenny O'Mahony: cold. Samantha Potter: day. Like they're saying she was fully capable that which is ridiculous. Like yeah, like Meagan: so that's why they're saying it she it was premeditated Jenny O'Mahony: They're trying to make it sound Meagan: 'cause she had her shit together. Samantha Potter: She she had her shit together. Jenny O'Mahony: totally. Samantha Potter: Like haven't we all been high high masking individuals in this room before? Like you try and be normal all day. Like yes. Yeah. Meagan: high mount. Yeah. Yeah. You like fake it. I feel like all women just fake it all day, right? Jenny O'Mahony: yeah. Meagan: Like, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Totally, totally. And like you can be like psychosis isn't it's it can it's kind of like fluid in a sense. Like it's yeah, Meagan: It's not constant. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Mm, mm. Jenny O'Mahony: it's not like a switch that goes on and then it's completely on and then off. Like you can have my understanding is sort of some periods of lucidity while you're psychotic. I mean, this is no I don't really know. I've never met Samantha Potter: Yeah. This Jenny O'Mahony: anybody who's psychotic. I've never seen anybody who's Samantha Potter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: like floridly psychotic. So I can't that's just Samantha Potter: There was a practitioner Jenny O'Mahony: Hearsay. Samantha Potter: on the stand today who testified to just that, saying like she could have been in the thralls of psychosis and still been functionaling functioning perfectly fine, which makes a lot of sense. Jenny O'Mahony: It's also all in hindsight, which is kinda tricky. Right? To Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: like just look at everything from what is it, three years, like the lens of now looking back three years. Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Meagan: Three years ago, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That's pretty tricky. Samantha Potter: I will say he's so guilty. He 100% did it, you guys. Like, there is just Meagan: There's just it's like Jenny O'Mahony: see, I don't agree. Samantha Potter: the timelines do not add up. When he said he was gone, he sent an email from his house. the internet, does like if you ever Jenny O'Mahony: Just Samantha Potter: want someone on your case, get the people of the internet involved. They have sleuthed so hard on this case. Meagan: Yeah. They will figure it out. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Mm-hmm. Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: He was in Costa Rica with his new wife like 20 days after his kid's funeral. Like they have proof of both of these people in Costa Rica. Not together, but they were both in Costa Rica. They both ran the Boston Marathon at this like in the same year. They were a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Meagan: like he definitely was cheating on her. Like there's no right? Like there's no yeah. Samantha Potter: So it's like there's your motive right there. And you have the timeline that just There's a lot of holes in this guy's timeline. Meagan: But isn't there still like no way like the only way for her to cause she's already admitted she did it, so isn't the only way for her to like get off is if the trial collapses essentially? Yeah. Or like the jury the jury Samantha Potter: Yes. It there would have to be Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah. I actually I also Meagan: can't decide. Samantha Potter: They can't decide or or there's just Jenny O'Mahony: the jury can only answer the question placed before them. Meagan: Which Samantha Potter: Yeah. Meagan: is the insanity. What shifts out mine, yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Was she of sound mind when the events happened? Correct. Yeah. Did she know that what she was doing was wrong? in the moments that it happened? Is the question that the jury has to answer. Meagan: So like no matter what, she's either going to be institutionalized for the rest of her life or jail for the rest of her life. Like the unless like the trial, the jury can't decide. Jenny O'Mahony: so I think if she is not guilty because of I can't remember what the term they use. It's not insanity, but it's which is obviously like an archaic term. But Meagan: No, yeah. Whatever they so archaic, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: I think it's that she would be indefinitely institutionalized in like a psychiatric facility of some sort until she was deemed to not be a threat to herself or others. I mean, my opinion. I d I don't think he did it. I think she did. and I think that what's I think that we have a really hard time believing that somebody could that a good mom, a nice person who on a lot in a lot of ways feels very relatable to us and people we know could Meagan: Yeah, so many women. Jenny O'Mahony: could could do that. could do that. And I think that Samantha Potter: Hundred percent. Meagan: And like he's just a shitty husband. Jenny O'Mahony: we don't want I think more than one thing can be I think more than one thing can be true at the same time. Samantha Potter: Have you seen his eyes though? Have you Meagan: His eyes. What's going on with his eyes? Samantha Potter: seen his eyes? They are so guilty. You just look at those eyes and you are you're Meagan: I really need to look at his eyes. Samantha Potter: okay. Jenny O'Mahony: I think that if they I think that they would have pursued that as her defense if they felt that he was guilty. Meagan: There was even a chance. Jenny O'Mahony: I don't think that the dif that she would in her civil case, which of course you can't use the civil case in this criminal trial, but like she her civil case, she in her has in her words admitted and described what happened. And I think that I just don't think that you would do that. You would pick a different defense. Samantha Potter: I've I'm I need to go I need to go look at the civil case because she still doesn't really know what happened. Like how was she describing what happened if she doesn't fully remember what happened? Meagan: Yeah. I haven't looked at the simple case either. I haven't. Jenny O'Mahony: Totally. And I and I it's pretty bullet point from what I've heard people describe. So like grain of salt, but it's like Meagan: Hm. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: she took the children to the basement, she strangled them with the bands. Like it's like very it's like the facts that we know. There's no like extra details. Samantha Potter: Right. Jenny O'Mahony: but I do think that if he if her defense felt that Patrick did it, the cross examination would have looked different than it did. Samantha Potter: So his case just started, like his the defense's case is just started two days ago. So all of that. Jenny O'Mahony: Sure, but he's cross-examined all of the witnesses the prosecution had, right? So like when he's cross-examining, Samantha Potter: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: he would have done that differently if he was trying to. When you're cross-examining, you can basically ask leading questions that you in a way that you can't ask your own witnesses, apparently. So Samantha Potter: Yeah. So he like the the email from home that was on the laptop. Like he did do that in his cross. And so I have a couple of thoughts about that. Number one, he doesn't Jenny O'Mahony: Mm-hmm. Samantha Potter: he doesn't want he's if he started his trial based on Lindsay didn't do it, Patrick did, he has now just made his job fifty times harder because not only is he needing to like maintain her. Jenny O'Mahony: I think he'd be held in contempt. Do you know what I mean? 'Cause it'd be like not what they agreed to do what I mean? Like I think you can't just like it's not like the movies. Yeah, it's it's yeah. Samantha Potter: Right. Yeah. But if yeah, that is what I mean initially. Meagan: Right. But do you mean like initially, like if initially he said they were going for not guilt like if initially they weren't were going for like Samantha Potter: Right. If they if he was just going for pure Jenny O'Mahony: That would have been what they would brought forward. Yeah. Samantha Potter: pure not guilty and positioning it so that someone else did it, he's making his job like so much harder. In this way, the way that I understand it, he has now positioned it in a way where the court needs to prove that she was of sound mind and they have so much evidence stacking up that's Meagan: Without yeah, and it's like the whole reasonable doubt, Jenny O'Mahony: But I think that Meagan: which is essentially like ninety nine percent. Jenny O'Mahony: but isn't that always but isn't that always Samantha Potter: Right. Jenny O'Mahony: how the prosecution is, like in a criminal trial? Like isn't it always their job to prove guilt and the defense's job is not actually to prove innocence, it's to do what Samantha Potter: But this is but this Jenny O'Mahony: I mean? Like I don't but I don't Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: I don't like isn't that how it works though? Samantha Potter: But no, no, no. But but what I'm but just what I'm saying is like why he's not going after somebody else is proving that they're guilty is because it's literally not his job. His job is to prove that she didn't do it and to say, like, here's, you know, here's holes in the defense in the prosecution's case and here's why this isn't working. And a lot of that includes Patrick's timeline. So Jenny O'Mahony: But I think h sh he could still do that because he would just be saying that so like you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person did it, right? So he would just be using that as his reasonable doubt. Do you know what I mean? Like, Meagan: His doubt. Jenny O'Mahony: yeah, the doubt would be, but Samantha Potter: That's what he's Jenny O'Mahony: it could have been somebody else. Meagan: The d yeah, that's what he's doing, is like the doubt. Samantha Potter: That's what he's doing. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: No no his case is that she it was is essentially medical malpractice. That she was not she did not receive the care that she needed to prevent this from h his case right now is that she was psychotic. You can't and he's his job is to poke holes in the prosecution's argument that she was not psychotic, right? They are saying this is premeditated, she planned this, she's a monster. And his job is to Samantha Potter: Totally. Jenny O'Mahony: just be is to poke holes in that, to be like Meagan: She had clothes on. She went to Samantha Potter: One hundred percent. Meagan: the doctor, so therefore she was not Yeah. Samantha Potter: But all in addition to that, he's still poking holes in like other people's stories where he is doing it in such a way Jenny O'Mahony: We want to make Samantha Potter: where he's he's showing that, you know, there's specifically to Patrick's timeline, let's just go right to that because specifically in that that it Jenny O'Mahony: Well he's just going after credibility, right? Samantha Potter: well, and he's and he's just saying like, you know, there there's a hole in what you're saying and it's making you feel untrustworthy. So yes, it is going to tr credibility. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That's exactly it, right? Because you want yeah, because jurors can't make decisions emotionally, but they're humans. So, like, okay, they have to do it off of facts, but if you don't trust somebody, you are inherently gonna find a reason to not believe their facts, right? Like you're gonna I don't see a world where she's guilty. Because I think it'd be very hard to say that this was. Premeditated. Meagan: Yeah, there's so many holes in that. But even if she gets the not of sound mind or sh even like it no matter what she gets charged with, you can't then charge someone else for that same right? So like if she get so if she does get charged, can they then go after Patrick? Jenny O'Mahony: I think you can. I think you just can't you just couldn't charge her again. Meagan: Right, okay. But could they like do another case against Patrick? Jenny O'Mahony: Right? Because like remember OJ Simpson? Cause cause OJ Simpson sure, I think so, because O. J. Simpson was found not guilty, right? But then he was found guilty in the civil trial. Exactly. Meagan: Okay. Yeah, but he was civilly. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: So I don't think though at like the whatever level that the Meagan: Yeah, okay, true. Jenny O'Mahony: criminal court trial? Is that a different level of government? They're separate court systems? I don't know how Meagan: Like they're separate. Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: it works. But y he couldn't be tried again in the crimin in the same system and be found guilty. But he could and it Meagan: But he could civilly. Samantha Potter: 'Cause then they'd both be guilty of the Meagan: So like civilly he c Patrick could be found guilty too, if that's even no, 'cause that's not even a civil court. Yeah. Right. Okay. Jenny O'Mahony: No, I think he could be criminally. Yeah, but she just couldn't be found guilty after being not guilty. I don't Meagan: Got it, got it. Yeah, okay. Jenny O'Mahony: think. Samantha Potter: In the same court system. Meagan: In criminal. Jenny O'Mahony: In the criminal court system. Samantha Potter: Yeah. I think Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: that sounds right. Meagan: Yeah, that makes sense. Jenny O'Mahony: I don't know if that I don't like that's my understanding. Meagan: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Samantha Potter: Logical. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: But I don't think I think they can say that she's guilty of A less like I don't know if they can do like if the prosecution wants it to be f first degree. I don't know if they can say manslaughter. Do you know what I mean? Like I think Meagan: Right. Samantha Potter: They have it. Jenny O'Mahony: like well, actually, but she's admitted, like they've Meagan: 'Cause they're doing first degree, right? Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah, they're saying first degree, Samantha Potter: They I think they have it as first degree, yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: which means it's premeditated. So I think what the ask or what the like because if she's found not guilty for reason of incapacity or whatever the term is. She still I think that is manslaugh. At that point it's like kind of neither here nor there. It's just like, well, she Meagan: Mm. Jenny O'Mahony: didn't plan it. She didn't have the capacity, mental capacity to plan it, right? She was floridly psychotic at the time. She could not, you know. It's just awful. It's just so sad. Meagan: It's so sad. Samantha Potter: It's so sad. And to see her have to go through this and like and that and f when my god. And Meagan: like when she broke down the other day. it's aw. Samantha Potter: Bo and Co. She is I don't I don't know if you guys have seen this because I think it was from today or perhaps yesterday, but Jenny O'Mahony: I haven't seen anything today yet. Meagan: I haven't seen anything in the past couple of days. Samantha Potter: her mother in law was on the stand, took the stand today. You guys want to hear what the Yeah. Patrick's yeah, Patrick's mother. Meagan: It's like Patrick's mother. Jenny O'Mahony: L Lin sorry, Lindsay's mother in law? So Patrick's mother. Okay. Yeah. Meagan: Patrick's nothing. Okay. Samantha Potter: the line of questioning From the prosecution was Are you Catholic? Are you aware that murder is a mortal sin? Meagan: That was what they were asking her. What? Jenny O'Mahony: Why how is that relevant? Samantha Potter: That is her line of questioning to a grandmother who has also lost her grandchildren. Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah. She's lost her gr yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That woman has Samantha Potter: Like Jenny O'Mahony: lived through hell too. Why does she but also I don't understand how that is supporting Meagan: How is that related? Jenny O'Mahony: the argument that she si she was premeditated. Samantha Potter: The judge cut it off. Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah. he did. Samantha Potter: that like Reddington didn't even Meagan: Like, no, how is any of this connected? Samantha Potter: have to object. The judge cut it off. It was completely Jenny O'Mahony: 'Cause that's like a r like like that's just not relevant. Yeah, like that's just you. Samantha Potter: irrelevant. It was so b I I don't despise a Jenny O'Mahony: that poor woman. Samantha Potter: lot of women, but Bo and Co. can go into the despise category. Jenny O'Mahony: But doesn't Lindsay have like a priest there supporting her? So are they asking Samantha Potter: Yes. Jenny O'Mahony: the priest if they're aware that it's a mortal sin? I would presume Samantha Potter: Great question. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: the priest would be aware of what of mortal sins and what aren't. Like what do is and isn't. Meagan: What a weird angle to go off. Jenny O'Mahony: I think they know that it's gone really badly. Meagan: Well, 'cause they weren't anticipating any of this, right? Like they weren't anticipating all these women to suddenly be like, Yeah, yeah. They Jenny O'Mahony: No, I think they thought it was gonna be like a witch hunt in the opposite direction. Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Meagan: thought it would be the yeah. They didn't expect all these women to be like, I've had postpartum. I you know, this is Samantha Potter: Yeah, when you Jenny O'Mahony: It's really Samantha Potter: hear her say, talk about like I've I was having intrusive thoughts and I you know, where it's like not one woman who has given birth a has any questions about what that means or you know, what kind of thoughts are you thinking of? Like Jenny O'Mahony: I remember being irrationally concerned Meagan: Yeah, not one single one that's true. Jenny O'Mahony: that, like, when walking on a sidewalk, a car was gonna hit me pushing my baby. Meagan: my God. And you could like envision it. Like do you Samantha Potter: Yeah. Meagan: remember like being able to see it in your head? Jenny O'Mahony: And I and at the same time knowing that it was not like it was the weirdest duality because like I was so aware that that was not rational, not possible, and like so far-fetched in the moment I was thinking it. I was it was like two parts of me were like, what if this? And my other side of my brain like, What the fuck? Stop. Your hormones. Stop at hormones. It Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Totally. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: was the weirdest experience. And luckily, I guess I had that second part that was like, enough because if you don't have that second part, like you would just be Samantha Potter: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: living with the first part. Samantha Potter: This is very Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: unrelated, but something similar to what we talked about the other day, when we were it's just the entire theme of it all. But Jenny O'Mahony: Is it unrelated or is it just the entire theme of this whole thing? Semapic? Meagan: Ha ha ha. Samantha Potter: I had that, like, not not in that context, but I just like had that little voice of like I was doing something and I was like, you're so dumb. And then I literally in my head was like, Shut up, Steve, and I named it a man, and Meagan: Okay. Samantha Potter: then I giggled and it was done. I was good. Jenny O'Mahony: I love that. Samantha Potter: So I feel like Meagan: So funny. Samantha Potter: if you are postpartum and you need that little voice to go away, name it a man. Meagan: Name it at a like Jenny O'Mahony: For sure. Meagan: yeah, Chad or some obnoxious man named Brad. Yeah. A broy Samantha Potter: Yeah, chad is a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Like a really like white a total white man name. Nice. Meagan: frat dude. That's funny. Yeah. Like three yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: He's got like a lot of popped collars. Like three layers of pop collars. Samantha Potter: And smells like appogrambian fitch. Meagan: Like he's wearing like three polo shirts. my god, yeah. Like white sunglasses. Jenny O'Mahony: Yes. Yeah. He really wanted to be one of the Abercrombie guys, but he couldn't. So now he's just trash talking Meagan: But he couldn't get there. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: you in your brain with his pop collars. Samantha Potter: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Like a loser. man. It's just also sad. That whole thing just makes me Meagan: So sad. Jenny O'Mahony: so sad. And I would love to say that it's this is like one of those monumental things that changes systems, but it's I don't think it will be. Meagan: Well, 'cause that's other thing we've Samantha Potter: I wish it would be. Meagan: been talking about too, is like why are we like, you know, going after the people? Like why it we should be going after the systems and like how much this proves how messed up the systems are. But it's not gonna change anything. Jenny O'Mahony: So I heard another No, and I to be clear, like we're Canadian and our system's very different and it's not perfect by any stretch, but it's Meagan: Yes. No. Jenny O'Mahony: we don't deal with insurance the same way. Like we are very confused by you Americans and your ridiculous insurance model. But Meagan: Yeah, it's not a business. Jenny O'Mahony: it's not a business. Nobody's like doing peer-to-peer to make sure they're like cancer surgeries approved. but I did hear a take that I was like, shit, and I'd never thought about. So Those physicians, the three of them, I think a nurse practitioner and then the two psychiatrists are part of the civil medical malpractice. They are not allowed to answer questions on the stand in a way that they would want to, because they would lose their insur their their medical practice insurance. So if they were to say, God, you know what, in hindsight, I really wish I'd called the family and had a whatever. Then they are admitting Meagan: They'll lose. Jenny O'Mahony: they did something wrong and they will lose their ability to be insured by their medical insurance provider. And Samantha Potter: Absolutely insane. Meagan: that yeah, so that's why they're answering things in this like roundabout way. Jenny O'Mahony: it's so they actually are not allowed, they're not allowed to answer the way that they would want to. And I think once I heard that, it made sense why that Meagan: Interesting. Jenny O'Mahony: young psychiatrist, who I genuinely felt really badly for, Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: could not, she could not. She like she just looked like she hadn't slept in three years. She probably hadn't. Before even being sued, I'm Meagan: Go ahead and Jenny O'Mahony: sure she was gutted Samantha Potter: Hundred percent. Jenny O'Mahony: and devastated. Any physician who has a patient under their care die, especially related to exactly what you were treating them for. I have Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Jenny O'Mahony: friends that are oncologists and they're sad when their cancer patients die, and the only reason they were seeing them is because they had cancer. Right? They take that. They take that. So for her to have an outpatient Samantha Potter: Course. Jenny O'Mahony: Have this horrific event like that poor physician will never be the same again, regardless of the lawsuit, but they can't actually express that humanity that they probably would like Meagan: Mm. Jenny O'Mahony: to because of their own their their profession, their ability to work is on the line with this this other lawsuit. Samantha Potter: So here's a hot take. Like society, why like society makes it so difficult for people to even want to be healthcare professionals? Like, why on earth would you get into healthcare? It's insane. The amount of pressure that's actually placed on you. Right. It's like you're Meagan: in the US where you can just be sued all the time, right? Like yeah. Samantha Potter: actually trying to do better and save a life. And at the same time, you're a human being. You Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: make like Meagan: You make mistakes. People make mistakes. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Megan, you and I make a typo and like a report, but Jenny makes a mistake and it's like, yeah, Meagan: We're not killing someone, yeah. Samantha Potter: it's like it's insane. The difference here, and I get it, it's somebody's life, Jenny O'Mahony: Y yeah. Samantha Potter: it's substantially different than like a piece of paper that we would have been putting out. But at the same time, you're like they're still human beings. And so the pressure and the it's insane. Jenny O'Mahony: I don't think you can try it's and it'd like Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: and I appreciate why Reddington did his line of questioning the way he did, because of what his job is. But I found it very Samantha Potter: Yeah. Of course. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: unfair for him to go after the 17 minute appointment. Cause it's like, who do you think set a 17 minute appointment? No fucking doctor wants a 17 minute appointment. That is an insurance company's requirement. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That is probably because they can only bill for a 17-minute appointment. Because they probably get paid, I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, three minutes to chart and 17 minutes to see the patient. So they probably get 20-minute slots that they are allowed to bill for, or else they're working for free. Meagan: Yep. Yep. Jenny O'Mahony: So, and this is where I get really like pitchfork in the air, is it's like I like I two things are true. I understand why he made it sound like she was negligent for the time allocation for the appointment, but like I she did not decide that her appointments were 17 minutes. That is the system she works with. So go talk to the system. But that's not Samantha Potter: Take the yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: how medical malpractice works. And she can't say, I wish I had longer appointments because guess what? She still has to keep her insurance Samantha Potter: There goes her insurance. Mm-hmm. Meagan: Yeah, 'cause even if she says that, yeah. Interesting. Jenny O'Mahony: Then her insurance provider is gonna drop her. So it's like it's yeah. It's so true. I mean, we have no family doctors here. No shit. Why why would like I get it? Pay them more. Samantha Potter: Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: They don't get paid enough. Samantha Potter: Absolutely not. Like they're I I just don't get that. Like healthcare professionals, teachers, like the the pay, the way the people are treated, it's Jenny O'Mahony: Ugh, I know. Meagan: Yeah. teachers. Yeah. Samantha Potter: just mind blowing to me. It's like bless all Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah. Samantha Potter: of the people who are doing it. Yeah. Meagan: Who made those that choice to do that? Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Everybody should have to work in like retail or like everybody should have to work w facing the public at some point in their life. Samantha Potter: A customer Meagan: Like Samantha Potter: service role. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: some horrific customer service job. Yep. Jenny O'Mahony: my god, go be a hostess at a restaurant. Go Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: be you like you should have to Samantha Potter: Go go be a barista before people have their coffee. You get the Jenny O'Mahony: Absolutely. Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: grouchiest people you could imagine. And imagine being like seventeen and very hungover serving those grouchy people. Meagan: Working in Starbucks. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Right. Samantha Potter: Not my life, but Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: I'm over at seventeen. That's Meagan: Talking from experience. Jenny O'Mahony: that's still h high school. dear. Samantha Potter: Us Yep, that's correct. my insurance still lives on. Meagan: Ha ha ha. Jenny O'Mahony: Totally. Everybody should have to work with the public at some point. Samantha Potter: Yeah. Absolutely agree. Jenny O'Mahony: It's pretty obvious who didn't. Samantha Potter: Well, I just think it it would teach you common decency for other people. Meagan: Yeah. Very. Jenny O'Mahony: Totally. It teaches you Meagan: And just like very quickly learn how to deal with in like people and complaints and how it feels to be yelled at. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Or how like not to act like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Or how it feels to be dealt with by people. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, yelled at for something that it does not matter, like at a coffee shop or at a restaurant. Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny O'Mahony: I used to bartend and like we could just kick people out that were behaving badly and we can't do that in the hospital. And I will always Meagan: No. Jenny O'Mahony: think of that. I'm like, if you were if you showed up at like the pub that I bartended in when I was twenty, you Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: would not be in there for very long. But Meagan: That's true. Like when I was a hostess, if someone was being inappropriate, we could get up thrown out. Samantha Potter: Kick out. Jenny O'Mahony: Out. Meagan: Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: You're in an airplane? Samantha Potter: Mm-hmm. Jenny O'Mahony: Out. Meagan: Yeah, that's true. Samantha Potter: That's very true. That's Meagan: You can't do that when someone's in the ICU or in the hospital. Right? Anywhere. In the hospital. Yeah. You can't throw out a parent. Samantha Potter: Yeah. I've though I've Yeah. I feel like it should just be an approach Jenny O'Mahony: Or anywhere in the hospital. Samantha Potter: that people should take in their lives. Like I've started taking it when people speak poorly to me and DMs or yell at me and all caps on emails. I'm I'm I'm now just calling them Meagan: An email? Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That was awesome. Samantha Potter: out. It's like I d I don't get how you get to live like this. You don't. I do Meagan: Do you do it when people do it in your DMs? You're just like if Samantha Potter: But there was one where this woman was like quite feisty with her response Meagan: really? Samantha Potter: to something I shared. And I was like, Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Was that the one who thought that your stuff was too expensive? You shared something and she was like, No one can afford this Samantha Potter: And then and then it she said at the end of it, she's like, get a grip. And I was like, you know what? Yeah. I was like, you know what? I totally respect that. Like you're if you want to give me feedback and you're like, this is a really hefty price point, you know, this maybe consider not sharing things like this. Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: but don't be rude. That's just that's Meagan: Yeah, there's there's Jenny O'Mahony: You also said Meagan: there's nicer ways to say that. And I would say you are good. Yeah, you always say that. Like you're not Jenny O'Mahony: this is a splurge. But you you s Samantha Potter: Yeah, I was super clear. Yeah. Meagan: saying I don't know how much it was, but you're not saying some like multi thousand Samantha Potter: Yeah, well, that's expensive. It was it was expensive for Canadians. That's the other hard part, is like it was half the price in America. Yeah. No, I know. this is a great deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Fair, but you're not saying that it's a steal. Like I'm sure you're not marketing it or pitching it as that. So yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: Sure. No, she She like disclaimered it. She was like, This is a splurge item. What part Meagan: Yeah. And like Jenny O'Mahony: of that makes you think it's gonna be affordable? Samantha Potter: A good price. Anyways, Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: but this person, I I then said to her, like, feedback's welcome, but just be kinder if you're gonna show up in my DMs Meagan: Totally. Samantha Potter: again. And she right away was like, I'm so sorry. I read my message. It was like it wasn't nice. I was like, my gosh. No, I no never in my life had I have I had someone respond like that, but I really appreciate it. Like you took ownership of it, you Jenny O'Mahony: Hm. Samantha Potter: apologized, Meagan: Yeah. Samantha Potter: and now we can all move on. And next time I see like your name pop up, I'm automatically gonna be so nice to you because I have a lot more respect for you now. Meagan: 'Cause you owned your shit, right? Like you owned, yeah. Samantha Potter: Cause you owned your shit. Like no one's perfect. It's all circles back to it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Jenny O'Mahony: That's the key. Well, it's accountability, right? Just being like accountable for being a person totally. Meagan: Yeah, everybody messes up. Jenny O'Mahony: And I mean that's what yeah. Meagan: Everyone has shitty days. Just like apologize and Samantha Potter: Hundred percent. Meagan: move on. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Huh. That's a nice story though. That she owned it. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Potter: It it's a nice end to the nice end to that. Jenny O'Mahony: I like that. I feel like it's like a good segue to end here 'cause like we're trying to not keep it super long and you just like end it on a high note. I love it. Samantha Potter: Yeah. I like it. I know. Meagan: Yeah, I like it. Yeah. A positive story. Be nice. Just be kind. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Be nice to people. And if Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah, don't be a dick. Yeah. Samantha Potter: someone's not being nice to you, just tell them and maybe they'll be nice after. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: True. Jenny O'Mahony: Yeah, well boundary setting goes a long way. Meagan: Yeah. I like it. Samantha Potter: Yeah. That's good. All right. Well, we'll chat next week. It's like how I'm gonna end it. We'll Jenny O'Mahony: I like it. Samantha Potter: chat next week. Jenny O'Mahony: Who knows what about? Meagan: Got a good radio voice there. Yeah. Samantha Potter: Okay, bye.